Sent in by D.C.
I was a person of faith...its all that I knew and for the longest time I really believed I couldn't live a happy life without faith. For longer than I can remember though...I was nagged by this little voice in the back of my mind...it kept saying..."Dawn...Christianity wasn't meant for you...this isn't real."
This voice kept getting louder and louder and louder until one day at work...I just stopped believing. It just sort of WENT AWAY.
I didn't feel bad...as a matter of fact I immediately started to feel better. I was very confused...why didn't I feel bad? Why didn't my "conscience" set about trying to destroy me. I DIDN'T FEEL EVIL!
lol...its been tough.
Friends, family, society...now I Feel as if I'm surrounded by crazy people. Xmas has been a real eye opener this year. I see Christians milling about nativity scenes at the mall...right next to Santa saying "ho ho ho Merry Christmas".
I feel like a survivor of some terrible mass delusion...like I'm mentally "well" for the first time. Does anyone else feel like they are living in a huge loony bin? I cant talk to anyone about this...all I can do is stare and feel bad for them. I'm thankful for this site because I can at least talk about it openly.
What I'm dealing with now...and what is most shocking...is now that the faith filter is gone, everything I see and hear on the news seems more real...more sad...I think faith actually made me numb because I have never felt anything like this before. Why do some people "wake up" and so many others not? My closest friends know about this...my family never will...lol ...NO WAY!
I know that I could never go back...I don't want to...I would rather live in a world of intelligence and reason. It may be lonelier out here...but dammit...it feels really good. I just hope that I can meet new like minded individuals...in time I know I will...
Peace...D.
These letters were published between January 2001 and February 2010. To view recent posts, go to The Main Blog at ExChristian.Net
Encouraging ex-Christians
From Steamboat Willey:
John Stewart described himself as a Jew in the sense that he loves a good bagel buffet. I am a still a Christian only in the sense that I love the the time off from work, spending it with my family, and the kids' excitement over having Santa Claus visit. I even enjoy the tree, the decorations and some of the music.
It's ironic that when I was a fundy we kept Christmas to a minimum. Others in my church (Seventh-day Adventist) didn't observe at all. We also didn't wear wedding rings. Now we wear diamonds and Christmas is a bash. It's part of throwing off the yoke. We won't take any of it with us where we're going, so we celebrate life.
Go then. Eat your food with gladness and drink your wine with a cheerful heart. Enjoy life with the person you love. It's cool; there is nothing to feel guilty for.
Merry Christmas all you ex-Christians.
How's that for encouragement?
John Stewart described himself as a Jew in the sense that he loves a good bagel buffet. I am a still a Christian only in the sense that I love the the time off from work, spending it with my family, and the kids' excitement over having Santa Claus visit. I even enjoy the tree, the decorations and some of the music.
It's ironic that when I was a fundy we kept Christmas to a minimum. Others in my church (Seventh-day Adventist) didn't observe at all. We also didn't wear wedding rings. Now we wear diamonds and Christmas is a bash. It's part of throwing off the yoke. We won't take any of it with us where we're going, so we celebrate life.
Go then. Eat your food with gladness and drink your wine with a cheerful heart. Enjoy life with the person you love. It's cool; there is nothing to feel guilty for.
Merry Christmas all you ex-Christians.
How's that for encouragement?
Hell is very hot!
A letter from Andrew F
Heres what i think,
once youre a saved born again christian, if its real, you cant just give it up. you cant go back on it or deny it because God will make sure he gets you back no matter what that takes.
This world is comin to an end fast, getting God out of schools, and everywhere else, teaching kids that being gay is just an alternative lifestyle, and that people werent created by God but that we came from monkeys...
Christians rights are being revoked. People are being told they are all god inside and strange religieons are beng made "popular" by the scummy, sorry, pathetic people in hollywood. Eveil and sin is being glorified by the world just like the bible predicted and the nation is being sucked into it.
Every nation that turned its back on God through time has fallen. Its sad to sit back and watch all the sin of the world be glorified. Real true born again children of God need to stick together and speak up- against the wicked sins of this world. WE need to take up our bibles and crosses and show the world that if they do not accept Jesus Christ then they will burn in hell for all of eternity.
I think any site that tries to ban God is just a sign of the times, but one day the people who dont believe will also stand before the one true living God, and as the bible says they will bow there knee and confess that he is Lord, then God will look down on non believers and say "depart from me, i know you not" and there begins the eternal seperation. I think that is sad but it will happen.
The only good part in all that is that those people in that one final moment before they are condemned to an eternity in hell will see that there was really a God and that they have spent there whole lives fighting against their creator. One day, when the trumpets blow, everyone will see that God is very real, heaven is real, and that hell is not only real but very hot.
Heres what i think,
once youre a saved born again christian, if its real, you cant just give it up. you cant go back on it or deny it because God will make sure he gets you back no matter what that takes.
This world is comin to an end fast, getting God out of schools, and everywhere else, teaching kids that being gay is just an alternative lifestyle, and that people werent created by God but that we came from monkeys...
Christians rights are being revoked. People are being told they are all god inside and strange religieons are beng made "popular" by the scummy, sorry, pathetic people in hollywood. Eveil and sin is being glorified by the world just like the bible predicted and the nation is being sucked into it.
Every nation that turned its back on God through time has fallen. Its sad to sit back and watch all the sin of the world be glorified. Real true born again children of God need to stick together and speak up- against the wicked sins of this world. WE need to take up our bibles and crosses and show the world that if they do not accept Jesus Christ then they will burn in hell for all of eternity.
I think any site that tries to ban God is just a sign of the times, but one day the people who dont believe will also stand before the one true living God, and as the bible says they will bow there knee and confess that he is Lord, then God will look down on non believers and say "depart from me, i know you not" and there begins the eternal seperation. I think that is sad but it will happen.
The only good part in all that is that those people in that one final moment before they are condemned to an eternity in hell will see that there was really a God and that they have spent there whole lives fighting against their creator. One day, when the trumpets blow, everyone will see that God is very real, heaven is real, and that hell is not only real but very hot.
Church rebate offer
I'm an ex-Christian will a story that you may have never heard before.
After 16 years of being an ex-Christian, I decided to see if I could get a refund on the money that I tithed to the church over the eight years that I was a believer. My years in the faith were divided between two different fellowships. I contacted my last pastor, and requested a refund of the money that I donated. He agreed to a refund and I am currently receiving a monthly check from them.
Even if you don't have documentation (I didn't either) of your giving, you might be able to get your money back.....I did, and let me tell you...it is so sweet!!
How did I do it?
First here is a short testimony:
I got 'saved' back in 1981. I attended a non-denominational church for about five years. I then left that fellowship and began attendance at Calvary Chapel. I became the worship/music minister. After three years I left the church. This was around 1989.
My experience with leaving the church is pretty typical. I was burned out on spending all my time and effort dealing with the music ministry. I left the church on very good terms with the pastor.
In the years that followed my leaving, I read and researched for answers to all the questions that had troubled me during my service to gods kingdom. I did not trust my pastor or fellow Christians to give me straight answers to my questions. After years of independent research, I now consider myself to be an atheist.
In my reflection on the years I spent in the ministry, I realized that I could never get back the time that I had invested. But maybe I could, at least receive back some of the money I had given.
I believed that whenever I put my tithe in the offering box, I was giving back to god. It was already 'his money'. I believed that the matter was totally between me and god. The church was simply the 'bagman' for my contribution.
Since my de-conversion, I now understand that I was psychologically manipulated into handing over ten percent of my income to the church. The pastor preaches about giving in such a way that if you don't give according to his scriptural interpretation, you are not a REAL Christian. This made me think: If I'm giving money to the church for the work of god, then it is a transaction strictly between myself and god. So....if I change my mind, and want my money back, the church should honor my request in the same way that they honored my contribution. It made sense to me.
I then contacted (via email) my ex-pastor and POLITELY requested a refund of all the money I had donated to the church in the time that I had been attending there. He admitted that he found the request unusual, but was willing to honor my wish.
Then it got down to business: Did I have any documentation of my contributions? Not really..... It had been over 16 years since my attendance at the fellowship, and I had not kept any records going back that far. Either had the church. The IRS could have given me documentation of my charitable donations for the years in question, but they would only show that donations had been claimed. The IRS docs would not show an itemization of who received the contribution. No help there. The bank account on which I wrote the checks had been closed and the branch was no longer in business.
It came down to this: My appeal was directly to my ex-pastor. He knew that I was completely dedicated (spiritually and financially) to the ministry while at the fellowship. He knew that I was trustworthy. Because we had such a close and friendly relationship during my years at the church, he simply put me in communication with the church accountant. The accountant and I negotiated an estimate of what my contributions probably amounted to, and we arrived at a dollar figure. They now are making monthly payments and I pinch myself every time the check arrives.
If this all sound too simple and unreal, understand this....For the sake of time, I have left out MANY details of the story. The only thing that I will add to this introduction, is the fact that all my correspondence with the pastor, secretary, and accountant was always pleasant, respectful, and to the point. At no time was I ever threatening or critical. I never discussed my personal spiritual opinions. I requested (not demanded) a refund of any amount that they would feel to be fair. My goal was to see if they believed what they had taught from the pulpit. Luckily for me, it appears they do.
I would suggest that before you begin a similar project, that you get all the information available in regards to your particular churches' policies on the subject of donations.
.....GOOD LUCK!!
Billy Braun
After 16 years of being an ex-Christian, I decided to see if I could get a refund on the money that I tithed to the church over the eight years that I was a believer. My years in the faith were divided between two different fellowships. I contacted my last pastor, and requested a refund of the money that I donated. He agreed to a refund and I am currently receiving a monthly check from them.
Even if you don't have documentation (I didn't either) of your giving, you might be able to get your money back.....I did, and let me tell you...it is so sweet!!
How did I do it?
First here is a short testimony:
I got 'saved' back in 1981. I attended a non-denominational church for about five years. I then left that fellowship and began attendance at Calvary Chapel. I became the worship/music minister. After three years I left the church. This was around 1989.
My experience with leaving the church is pretty typical. I was burned out on spending all my time and effort dealing with the music ministry. I left the church on very good terms with the pastor.
In the years that followed my leaving, I read and researched for answers to all the questions that had troubled me during my service to gods kingdom. I did not trust my pastor or fellow Christians to give me straight answers to my questions. After years of independent research, I now consider myself to be an atheist.
In my reflection on the years I spent in the ministry, I realized that I could never get back the time that I had invested. But maybe I could, at least receive back some of the money I had given.
I believed that whenever I put my tithe in the offering box, I was giving back to god. It was already 'his money'. I believed that the matter was totally between me and god. The church was simply the 'bagman' for my contribution.
Since my de-conversion, I now understand that I was psychologically manipulated into handing over ten percent of my income to the church. The pastor preaches about giving in such a way that if you don't give according to his scriptural interpretation, you are not a REAL Christian. This made me think: If I'm giving money to the church for the work of god, then it is a transaction strictly between myself and god. So....if I change my mind, and want my money back, the church should honor my request in the same way that they honored my contribution. It made sense to me.
I then contacted (via email) my ex-pastor and POLITELY requested a refund of all the money I had donated to the church in the time that I had been attending there. He admitted that he found the request unusual, but was willing to honor my wish.
Then it got down to business: Did I have any documentation of my contributions? Not really..... It had been over 16 years since my attendance at the fellowship, and I had not kept any records going back that far. Either had the church. The IRS could have given me documentation of my charitable donations for the years in question, but they would only show that donations had been claimed. The IRS docs would not show an itemization of who received the contribution. No help there. The bank account on which I wrote the checks had been closed and the branch was no longer in business.
It came down to this: My appeal was directly to my ex-pastor. He knew that I was completely dedicated (spiritually and financially) to the ministry while at the fellowship. He knew that I was trustworthy. Because we had such a close and friendly relationship during my years at the church, he simply put me in communication with the church accountant. The accountant and I negotiated an estimate of what my contributions probably amounted to, and we arrived at a dollar figure. They now are making monthly payments and I pinch myself every time the check arrives.
If this all sound too simple and unreal, understand this....For the sake of time, I have left out MANY details of the story. The only thing that I will add to this introduction, is the fact that all my correspondence with the pastor, secretary, and accountant was always pleasant, respectful, and to the point. At no time was I ever threatening or critical. I never discussed my personal spiritual opinions. I requested (not demanded) a refund of any amount that they would feel to be fair. My goal was to see if they believed what they had taught from the pulpit. Luckily for me, it appears they do.
I would suggest that before you begin a similar project, that you get all the information available in regards to your particular churches' policies on the subject of donations.
.....GOOD LUCK!!
Billy Braun
The Jesus Show
A letter from Santa:
Just thought I'd report on an experience I had a couple of nights ago. I am a free-lance Santa for parties, etc, this time of year.
One of my agencies assigned me to a holiday party for a business. I was surprised to see when I got there, that the CEO of the business was executing his holiday office party like "The Jesus Show."
First of all, he spoke from a stage and told everyone that Jesus was the reason for the season and had everyone stand up and pray. I went along, but only because to be seen there as a Santa who didn't go along with their Jesus message might have caused complaints back to my agency. Then he had various employees read Bible passages related to the birth (and death) of Jesus.
There was even a cake in the buffet line which was shaped to look like a Bible and was decorated with Bible passages.
The worst part was the singing. Bad fundy songs about Jesus sung badly. They even sang "Happy Birthday" to Jesus. At that moment, I felt the Christians were right about one thing; there is a hell; and I was in it.
Just when I thought I had descended to the seventh level of hell, one big haired lady announced she was going to sing, "Jesus Loves Me, This I Know," to a "visual" by ..... drum roll.... TRENT LOTT! Nothing like a racist to cap off your evening. The video he had produced had children running through meadows in slow motion, blowing bubbles, and everyone all happy beyond belief -- surprise! they were alll white!
I had this fantasy of having known in advance this was going to take place and surreptitiously replacing the Lott video with the Ava Lowery video which shows kids blown up in Iraq to the same song Muhahahahahahaaaa! They would have been in shock.
Anyway, of course the whole time I was asking myself. Is this even remotely legal to be so blatantly proselytizing to your employees this way? I'm guessing they screen for infidels and don't allow people like you and me work for them. BTW, the company is in the oil and gas exploration and well maintenance business. In any case, it's hard to imagine that there aren't some people who work there who made uneasy by all this, and there's pressure to conform to his view of religion to get promotions, etc.
Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 clearly states:
I'm interested in reactions to this.
Just thought I'd report on an experience I had a couple of nights ago. I am a free-lance Santa for parties, etc, this time of year.
One of my agencies assigned me to a holiday party for a business. I was surprised to see when I got there, that the CEO of the business was executing his holiday office party like "The Jesus Show."
First of all, he spoke from a stage and told everyone that Jesus was the reason for the season and had everyone stand up and pray. I went along, but only because to be seen there as a Santa who didn't go along with their Jesus message might have caused complaints back to my agency. Then he had various employees read Bible passages related to the birth (and death) of Jesus.
There was even a cake in the buffet line which was shaped to look like a Bible and was decorated with Bible passages.
The worst part was the singing. Bad fundy songs about Jesus sung badly. They even sang "Happy Birthday" to Jesus. At that moment, I felt the Christians were right about one thing; there is a hell; and I was in it.
Just when I thought I had descended to the seventh level of hell, one big haired lady announced she was going to sing, "Jesus Loves Me, This I Know," to a "visual" by ..... drum roll.... TRENT LOTT! Nothing like a racist to cap off your evening. The video he had produced had children running through meadows in slow motion, blowing bubbles, and everyone all happy beyond belief -- surprise! they were alll white!
I had this fantasy of having known in advance this was going to take place and surreptitiously replacing the Lott video with the Ava Lowery video which shows kids blown up in Iraq to the same song Muhahahahahahaaaa! They would have been in shock.
Anyway, of course the whole time I was asking myself. Is this even remotely legal to be so blatantly proselytizing to your employees this way? I'm guessing they screen for infidels and don't allow people like you and me work for them. BTW, the company is in the oil and gas exploration and well maintenance business. In any case, it's hard to imagine that there aren't some people who work there who made uneasy by all this, and there's pressure to conform to his view of religion to get promotions, etc.
Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 clearly states:
Employees cannot be forced to participate -- or not participate -- in a religious activity as a condition of employment.
I'm interested in reactions to this.
Christianity is stupid
A letter from CW:
I remember a few years ago when my dad walked away from his job that he had with a company, he decided to take an early retirement.
My dad was Manager and Controller of a major company where I live. He made some really good money, but when the owners overlooked my dad's advice, the company got into financial trouble. My dad resigned, and never went back to work. He retired at the age of 57 with no retirement or pension of any kind.
He rededicated his life to Christ in 1989, and he says that he believes the "Good Lord" blocked his attempts at getting rich, knowing he would probably be a crooked business man. He says he has no regrets about it.
Well let's see then. My parents are now both on fixed income, and they have to rely on SSI, and now because of a lack of money, they missed out on the opportunities to purchase our neighbor's farm when it went up for sale, and now the person who bought part of it has put junk all behind my parent's house, and my dad fusses about that on a constant basis, they were unable to purchase my grandmother's home when she passed away, and a member of our family is struggling with an eating disorder that may very well kill him, and my dad doesn't have the money to get him the help he needs.
My dad still says that he has no regrets about his decision, and it was God's will that he was not able to make big money.
No invisible God will determine if I make it in the financial world or not. All these Christians and God both can go screw themselves.
I do not need to get permission from an invisible force to make it in the financial world.
Once again, Christianity is stupid.
I remember a few years ago when my dad walked away from his job that he had with a company, he decided to take an early retirement.
My dad was Manager and Controller of a major company where I live. He made some really good money, but when the owners overlooked my dad's advice, the company got into financial trouble. My dad resigned, and never went back to work. He retired at the age of 57 with no retirement or pension of any kind.
He rededicated his life to Christ in 1989, and he says that he believes the "Good Lord" blocked his attempts at getting rich, knowing he would probably be a crooked business man. He says he has no regrets about it.
Well let's see then. My parents are now both on fixed income, and they have to rely on SSI, and now because of a lack of money, they missed out on the opportunities to purchase our neighbor's farm when it went up for sale, and now the person who bought part of it has put junk all behind my parent's house, and my dad fusses about that on a constant basis, they were unable to purchase my grandmother's home when she passed away, and a member of our family is struggling with an eating disorder that may very well kill him, and my dad doesn't have the money to get him the help he needs.
My dad still says that he has no regrets about his decision, and it was God's will that he was not able to make big money.
No invisible God will determine if I make it in the financial world or not. All these Christians and God both can go screw themselves.
I do not need to get permission from an invisible force to make it in the financial world.
Once again, Christianity is stupid.
So what should we do?
Sent in by John
I was a saved baptized, spirit-filled, born-again Christian by choice for many years and as such I knew that every person who is not a saved, born-again Christian is going to burn in the depths of hell for all eternity. I also knew that every TV show, every movie, every book that did not glorify Jesus Christ is "of the world" and therefore "satanic" for Satan is the "lord of this world." More importantly I knew that every religion, every spiritual path, every faith, every creed, denomination and belief that was not "King James Bible Christianity" was a satanic deception straight from the pit of hell.
These are the people I am surrounded by. These are the people we deal with. Should we blame them? I pity them. They sincerely believe we will burn in fiery agony for eternity unless we accept Jesus as savior and become born of the Spirit (John 3:3). So what should we do?
I just refuse to discuss it with them. Personally I can't stand anything "Christian". I feel very fortunate to have escaped this dangerous cult and am still very sensitive to the lies the brain washing so I can't, won't (as much as I can control) be around any of their songs, icons, imagery. It offends me. I’m trying to move away from that life — put it behind me. I refuse to be subjected to their mind numbing propaganda. I just hope I can recover to the point that I won't be begging Jesus for forgiveness on my death bed.
I was a saved baptized, spirit-filled, born-again Christian by choice for many years and as such I knew that every person who is not a saved, born-again Christian is going to burn in the depths of hell for all eternity. I also knew that every TV show, every movie, every book that did not glorify Jesus Christ is "of the world" and therefore "satanic" for Satan is the "lord of this world." More importantly I knew that every religion, every spiritual path, every faith, every creed, denomination and belief that was not "King James Bible Christianity" was a satanic deception straight from the pit of hell.
These are the people I am surrounded by. These are the people we deal with. Should we blame them? I pity them. They sincerely believe we will burn in fiery agony for eternity unless we accept Jesus as savior and become born of the Spirit (John 3:3). So what should we do?
I just refuse to discuss it with them. Personally I can't stand anything "Christian". I feel very fortunate to have escaped this dangerous cult and am still very sensitive to the lies the brain washing so I can't, won't (as much as I can control) be around any of their songs, icons, imagery. It offends me. I’m trying to move away from that life — put it behind me. I refuse to be subjected to their mind numbing propaganda. I just hope I can recover to the point that I won't be begging Jesus for forgiveness on my death bed.
Satan is blinding you to the truth
A letter from D. O'Hara
The fact that misguided people such as yourselves are "dogging" Christianity proves the truth of the Bible. It is always curious to me why Christianity is the subject of intense and frankly often misguided scrutiny when other false religions get a pass.
For example, it's OK to say Christianity and the BIble are a bunch of #*&%^& but what about Mormonism or Islam or Buddhism. This fact confirms that the children of Satan aren't interested in the truth.
Let's take evolution, for example. I have often thought why something as complex as the earth, the human cell, or the universe just evolved from chance but human "creations" like the discovery of the atom, or a rap song, or your homework don't "evolve." I haven't ever seen a bicycle evolve into a car or even a Toyota into a BMW.
Hmmm. It seems like the true reason for evolution is that lovers of falsehood such as you young misguided folks are too lazy to truly study and apply the full truth of the BIble instead of using it as an excuse for your rebellion.
Also, Christians in Muslim countries are treated like garbage and in most Christian or professing countries Muslims are allowed freedom of worship.
Satan is blinding you to the truth because the Bible says, "the gospel is veiled to those who are perishing." God makes the rules folks. If you don't like it, too bad!!! However, it seems like if one of you made the rules for the universe things would be pretty twisted.
A bible verse you may find interesting...."For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now retrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one (the Antichrist) will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of HIs coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish (that would be presumably you folks unless you repent), because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie ( By golly, you folks are in the Bible.), that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unirighteousness.
So there is my anti- anti-Christian testimony. I hope you all like it.
And by the way spare me the lecture about inclusion or tolerance or something stupid like that because you folks and those like you are often quite intolerant. This website for example. You and those like you have twisted the meaning of tolerance so it's hardly worth talking to you.
God has held His hand out for thousands of years but the time of His wrath is coming, if it hasn't started already. So here's one final verse, "The thief (Satan) comes only to steal, and kill, and destroy but I (Jesus Christ) have come that they might have life and have it more abundantly."
This site is full of hate.
You people are to be pitied. May God contend with your rebellious attitude and nonsensical reasoning. Geneis 12:3.
The fact that you folks twist something true, simple and beautifl into something hateful shows how misguided and twisted you are.
By the way, I am a member of a Roman Catholic Church.
Once again, God makes the rules and He laughs at rebels like you (Psalm 2).
Have a nice day
The fact that misguided people such as yourselves are "dogging" Christianity proves the truth of the Bible. It is always curious to me why Christianity is the subject of intense and frankly often misguided scrutiny when other false religions get a pass.
For example, it's OK to say Christianity and the BIble are a bunch of #*&%^& but what about Mormonism or Islam or Buddhism. This fact confirms that the children of Satan aren't interested in the truth.
Let's take evolution, for example. I have often thought why something as complex as the earth, the human cell, or the universe just evolved from chance but human "creations" like the discovery of the atom, or a rap song, or your homework don't "evolve." I haven't ever seen a bicycle evolve into a car or even a Toyota into a BMW.
Hmmm. It seems like the true reason for evolution is that lovers of falsehood such as you young misguided folks are too lazy to truly study and apply the full truth of the BIble instead of using it as an excuse for your rebellion.
Also, Christians in Muslim countries are treated like garbage and in most Christian or professing countries Muslims are allowed freedom of worship.
Satan is blinding you to the truth because the Bible says, "the gospel is veiled to those who are perishing." God makes the rules folks. If you don't like it, too bad!!! However, it seems like if one of you made the rules for the universe things would be pretty twisted.
A bible verse you may find interesting...."For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now retrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one (the Antichrist) will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of HIs coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish (that would be presumably you folks unless you repent), because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie ( By golly, you folks are in the Bible.), that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unirighteousness.
So there is my anti- anti-Christian testimony. I hope you all like it.
And by the way spare me the lecture about inclusion or tolerance or something stupid like that because you folks and those like you are often quite intolerant. This website for example. You and those like you have twisted the meaning of tolerance so it's hardly worth talking to you.
God has held His hand out for thousands of years but the time of His wrath is coming, if it hasn't started already. So here's one final verse, "The thief (Satan) comes only to steal, and kill, and destroy but I (Jesus Christ) have come that they might have life and have it more abundantly."
This site is full of hate.
You people are to be pitied. May God contend with your rebellious attitude and nonsensical reasoning. Geneis 12:3.
The fact that you folks twist something true, simple and beautifl into something hateful shows how misguided and twisted you are.
By the way, I am a member of a Roman Catholic Church.
Once again, God makes the rules and He laughs at rebels like you (Psalm 2).
Have a nice day
A prophecy for the webmaster
Hello Dave,
I hope this message finds you well!
I'm sorry that I didn't message you until today. I was visiting my girlfriend's parents over the weekend and didn't really have internet access at the end of my fast. I completed my three days of fasting for you, and God gave me a prophecy that I'm to share with you. I'm eager to do so, but I'd like to ask your permission first. Is it okay with you if I share that with you? Would you read it, knowing that I truly believe that it is a message that God gave me specifically to give to you?
I don't have the stunning logic that you have, nor the intense knowledge of the Bible. I know that it was written by fallible human beings. To be honest, I actually don't buy into the idea of organized religion much at all. I think it causes more problems than it solves. However, I have experienced God in ways that defy human logic. I'm excited to dialogue with you and see who you are. I'm not out to make you a 'Christian.' You've been there, and I don't think you're keen on going back, and I'm not really concerned with getting you there. I think what makes me most curious is the why. I want to know what makes you tick, and why you've devoted so much time to this. I know that Christians do it to, but I think it's because they think they have to. So why, Dave?
Anyhow, I'll not flood you with too many words. Too many words leave little room for thought.
I look forward to hearing back from you. I love you, and I am praying for you to realize your belovedness as a treasured child of the living God.
-David
P.S.- It might seem like I'm trying to sugarcoat some truth to reel you in and snap you with the hard cold damnation of such and such, but I'm really not. I don't like to sugarcoat things- I say what I mean and try to be transparent. Call me on it if you think I'm doing otherwise, because I don't want to be fake to you.
From David --
Hi Dave,
Sorry it takes me so long to get back to you. School and "work" (I'm self-employed) are pressing in on me right now, but it's Veteran's Day weekend, so I have a bit of time now. :)
Anyhow, I'm attaching the prophecy that I told you I had. I wrote it out when God gave it to me last Monday, I think. I hope you find it encouraging. I really find it encouraging, and I believe it to be true. That gets into some of that stuff like free will vs. divine will or whatever that argument is, but the point is that we can't wrap our human logic around God like that. That's kind of what the prophecy is about, too.
Jesus said to love God with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength. That's the most important commandment. I know you know that already for like a zillion years now, but here's something I've been thinking about lately: I think each person is best at loving God with a certain part of them. For me, strength is easiest. I love to serve God by what I do. But then I have a hard time devoting my mind to his teachings and remembering to pray and stuff like that. As a fundementalist Christian, I'm guessing you were really strong in the mind and strength areas, but perhaps you didn't feel the love in your heart. Maybe it was more like a sense of duty. Is that how it was? I've never really been a Fundy or anything, so I don't presume to know anything about what it's like. I just want to understand that better.
Anyhow, that's what the prophecy (which I believe to be divine truth inspired by God) talks about. I'm just gonna write it to you now and let you read it, I guess, because that would make more sense than analyzing it and then having you read it.
"I am the LORD,
I am the Almighty,
That I Am is all.
Listen to what I say to you, Beloved,
Hear my words; they are for you.
They are for my Prodigal Beloved.
You sought me with your mind and I hid myself from you.
You searched for me in pride, but I was hidden where you could not find me.
You doubted your mind and you were chastised by others - They also loved me with their minds.
You turned away from me with your heart and your mind.
You sought me again, but in order to destroy.
You sought to destroy that I Am.
When you turned away, I did not change, Beloved.
Seek me with your heart,
and you will find me!
I will speak Love to you,
and you will serve others in Love.
Those who presumed to teach you, you will teach.
Those who spurned you, you will forgive.
Those who claim the truth of that I Am will be put to shame by the truth that I Am Love.
You will show them, Beloved.
You are my Beloved!
You will be after my own heart.
I shall reclaim my Beloved!"
The last thing I have to say is: I was wondering if it's okay if I ask some people to pray for you. I have some close friends praying for you, but I didn't want to tell the whole world about you or something, because I think they wouldn't each love you. Some of them would be hard-hearted to you. That makes me really sad, but that's the truth on either side of the fence: people are afraid. But I want to tell some of my friends that I know won't be like that; that I know will pray for you in love and compassion. Is that okay?
Anyhow, sorry to take up so much of your time with all this reading. I look at the words I just wrote and they turn into a magic eye picture because there's so many of them. Or maybe I'm just easily whelmed. :)
Have a wonderful weekend and enjoy a hot beverage that makes you happy on my behalf. I just wish I could be there to buy it for you and make a snowman if there's snow.
Take care and God bless you,
David
Note: David sent in $20.00 in support of this website, a response to the "No True Christians" rant.
Then David said: Thanks for listening Dave.
I know yuo've probably heard it all before, but I'm just curious about this... How do you differentiate between your evangelism as a fundementalist and your evangelism as an atheist? It seems like you think you're as right now as you thought you were then. Actually, you use scriptures in much the same ways as the fundementalists that come and preach at the common areas at my university. You both condemn people of foolishness using Christian doctrine as ammunition. Is there any difference besides the group of people you are calling fools?
I know this is kind of a pointed question, but I think you can handle it, and I bet you've been asked it before. I'm not trying to corner you or anything, I've just been curious about this since I saw that you used to be a fundy, because I know there must be some reason. I also haven't had time to look over your entire website yet (it's enormous! well, to me at least), so my thinking that you use Christian doctrine alone could be completely wrong. In that case, I am a fool in that respect. :)
Sorry to keep bugging you. I guess I just really wonder what you're all about. If you want me to stop bugging you, go ahead and don't reply and I'll let you be.
God bless you,
David
Then David concluded with:
I definitely hadn't considered that stark contrast between you and the guys at my school. Thanks for clearing that up, and I'm really sorry if I offended you at all or made you feel like I was challenging your beliefs. I just wanted to know more about what "makes you tick."
I really do see what you're doing as an "affront to Christianity," but I don't feel any need to change it, challenge it, defend others from it or attack it. You're entitled to your right to believe what you want just as I'm to mine.
When I donated, it wasn't because I felt a need to do something about it. My first reaction was actually to be pissed off and shoot my mouth or something (which I consider to be a fearful and wrong reaction). The reason I donated was because I truly felt a conviction from God that I should follow Jesus' teachings, even if it's slightly inconvenient for me.
The reason I sent you a prophecy is because I felt that I had been instructed to do so. I wouldn't have sent it if you told me not to when I asked permission, but I feel like I overstepped my boundaries none the less. I'm sorry about that. I don't want to be lumped in with the other jerks I see posting on your site in the name of God. They should know better than to tell "the truth" (as they see it) in any way other than a completely honest and loving way, following deep self-examination.
I'm sorry if I seem overzealous to you as well. I can guarantee you, though, that unlike the others, I do everything I can to make my passion one of love rather than number of converts, percentage of my Christlikeness compared to others', or anything else so remarkably idiotic. I do feel a need to defend myself, but not because I fear your cause or dislike it. It's because I don't want to be seen as one of them. You're about ten times easier to love than they are.
Don't worry about writing me back. I just wrote (with too many words, as usual) to thank you for your response and apologize for coming across the way I did. Thank you very much for your time and insight. I'll be checking the site from time to time to see what's new.
God bless you,
David
I hope this message finds you well!
I'm sorry that I didn't message you until today. I was visiting my girlfriend's parents over the weekend and didn't really have internet access at the end of my fast. I completed my three days of fasting for you, and God gave me a prophecy that I'm to share with you. I'm eager to do so, but I'd like to ask your permission first. Is it okay with you if I share that with you? Would you read it, knowing that I truly believe that it is a message that God gave me specifically to give to you?
I don't have the stunning logic that you have, nor the intense knowledge of the Bible. I know that it was written by fallible human beings. To be honest, I actually don't buy into the idea of organized religion much at all. I think it causes more problems than it solves. However, I have experienced God in ways that defy human logic. I'm excited to dialogue with you and see who you are. I'm not out to make you a 'Christian.' You've been there, and I don't think you're keen on going back, and I'm not really concerned with getting you there. I think what makes me most curious is the why. I want to know what makes you tick, and why you've devoted so much time to this. I know that Christians do it to, but I think it's because they think they have to. So why, Dave?
Anyhow, I'll not flood you with too many words. Too many words leave little room for thought.
I look forward to hearing back from you. I love you, and I am praying for you to realize your belovedness as a treasured child of the living God.
-David
P.S.- It might seem like I'm trying to sugarcoat some truth to reel you in and snap you with the hard cold damnation of such and such, but I'm really not. I don't like to sugarcoat things- I say what I mean and try to be transparent. Call me on it if you think I'm doing otherwise, because I don't want to be fake to you.
My response:
Hello David,
Please feel free to send me whatever you like.
Have a great day!
Dave Van Allen
webmaster of http://exchristian.net
From David --
Hi Dave,
Sorry it takes me so long to get back to you. School and "work" (I'm self-employed) are pressing in on me right now, but it's Veteran's Day weekend, so I have a bit of time now. :)
Anyhow, I'm attaching the prophecy that I told you I had. I wrote it out when God gave it to me last Monday, I think. I hope you find it encouraging. I really find it encouraging, and I believe it to be true. That gets into some of that stuff like free will vs. divine will or whatever that argument is, but the point is that we can't wrap our human logic around God like that. That's kind of what the prophecy is about, too.
Jesus said to love God with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength. That's the most important commandment. I know you know that already for like a zillion years now, but here's something I've been thinking about lately: I think each person is best at loving God with a certain part of them. For me, strength is easiest. I love to serve God by what I do. But then I have a hard time devoting my mind to his teachings and remembering to pray and stuff like that. As a fundementalist Christian, I'm guessing you were really strong in the mind and strength areas, but perhaps you didn't feel the love in your heart. Maybe it was more like a sense of duty. Is that how it was? I've never really been a Fundy or anything, so I don't presume to know anything about what it's like. I just want to understand that better.
Anyhow, that's what the prophecy (which I believe to be divine truth inspired by God) talks about. I'm just gonna write it to you now and let you read it, I guess, because that would make more sense than analyzing it and then having you read it.
"I am the LORD,
I am the Almighty,
That I Am is all.
Listen to what I say to you, Beloved,
Hear my words; they are for you.
They are for my Prodigal Beloved.
You sought me with your mind and I hid myself from you.
You searched for me in pride, but I was hidden where you could not find me.
You doubted your mind and you were chastised by others - They also loved me with their minds.
You turned away from me with your heart and your mind.
You sought me again, but in order to destroy.
You sought to destroy that I Am.
When you turned away, I did not change, Beloved.
Seek me with your heart,
and you will find me!
I will speak Love to you,
and you will serve others in Love.
Those who presumed to teach you, you will teach.
Those who spurned you, you will forgive.
Those who claim the truth of that I Am will be put to shame by the truth that I Am Love.
You will show them, Beloved.
You are my Beloved!
You will be after my own heart.
I shall reclaim my Beloved!"
The last thing I have to say is: I was wondering if it's okay if I ask some people to pray for you. I have some close friends praying for you, but I didn't want to tell the whole world about you or something, because I think they wouldn't each love you. Some of them would be hard-hearted to you. That makes me really sad, but that's the truth on either side of the fence: people are afraid. But I want to tell some of my friends that I know won't be like that; that I know will pray for you in love and compassion. Is that okay?
Anyhow, sorry to take up so much of your time with all this reading. I look at the words I just wrote and they turn into a magic eye picture because there's so many of them. Or maybe I'm just easily whelmed. :)
Have a wonderful weekend and enjoy a hot beverage that makes you happy on my behalf. I just wish I could be there to buy it for you and make a snowman if there's snow.
Take care and God bless you,
David
My response --
It's a free country, David.
Feel free to invocate your invisible friend all you want.
I expectantly await the results.
Dave
webmaster of http://exchristian.net
Note: David sent in $20.00 in support of this website, a response to the "No True Christians" rant.
Then David said: Thanks for listening Dave.
I know yuo've probably heard it all before, but I'm just curious about this... How do you differentiate between your evangelism as a fundementalist and your evangelism as an atheist? It seems like you think you're as right now as you thought you were then. Actually, you use scriptures in much the same ways as the fundementalists that come and preach at the common areas at my university. You both condemn people of foolishness using Christian doctrine as ammunition. Is there any difference besides the group of people you are calling fools?
I know this is kind of a pointed question, but I think you can handle it, and I bet you've been asked it before. I'm not trying to corner you or anything, I've just been curious about this since I saw that you used to be a fundy, because I know there must be some reason. I also haven't had time to look over your entire website yet (it's enormous! well, to me at least), so my thinking that you use Christian doctrine alone could be completely wrong. In that case, I am a fool in that respect. :)
Sorry to keep bugging you. I guess I just really wonder what you're all about. If you want me to stop bugging you, go ahead and don't reply and I'll let you be.
God bless you,
David
My response:
David,
You said, "...as the fundementalists that come and preach at the common areas at my university."
I'm not coming to your university. I don't knock on doors. I don't argue with people on the street corners. I don't pass out tracts.
I do post my own thoughts on my own web page, and allow others to view them and either agree or disagree. No one is forced to read the things I and others write. No one is threatened with eternal torment in horrific agony in a place they will never die for disagreeing with me or the others who post. Please read the disclaimer and purpose page of this site. You'll see that it is for those who have realized Christianity is bunk. It's not a tool for evangelism for atheism. I admit that I am now an atheist, however, other regular posters on the site have other positions on the "Is there a god?"question. And that's OK.
What I think you mistake for evangelism is really counter-evangelism. A zealous Christian, like yourself, comes into the site, is upset by what is judged to be an affront to Christ or Christianity, and feels a desire to do something. That something, typically, will be to preach or prophesy or lash out with words. The words used will be the internal language of Christianity. I understand that language because I can speak it. It wouldn't do to answer a fundamentalist in the language of secularism, would it? So to the fundamentalist, I become a fundamentalist. I think Paul the Apostle used a similar approach.
Then David concluded with:
I definitely hadn't considered that stark contrast between you and the guys at my school. Thanks for clearing that up, and I'm really sorry if I offended you at all or made you feel like I was challenging your beliefs. I just wanted to know more about what "makes you tick."
I really do see what you're doing as an "affront to Christianity," but I don't feel any need to change it, challenge it, defend others from it or attack it. You're entitled to your right to believe what you want just as I'm to mine.
When I donated, it wasn't because I felt a need to do something about it. My first reaction was actually to be pissed off and shoot my mouth or something (which I consider to be a fearful and wrong reaction). The reason I donated was because I truly felt a conviction from God that I should follow Jesus' teachings, even if it's slightly inconvenient for me.
The reason I sent you a prophecy is because I felt that I had been instructed to do so. I wouldn't have sent it if you told me not to when I asked permission, but I feel like I overstepped my boundaries none the less. I'm sorry about that. I don't want to be lumped in with the other jerks I see posting on your site in the name of God. They should know better than to tell "the truth" (as they see it) in any way other than a completely honest and loving way, following deep self-examination.
I'm sorry if I seem overzealous to you as well. I can guarantee you, though, that unlike the others, I do everything I can to make my passion one of love rather than number of converts, percentage of my Christlikeness compared to others', or anything else so remarkably idiotic. I do feel a need to defend myself, but not because I fear your cause or dislike it. It's because I don't want to be seen as one of them. You're about ten times easier to love than they are.
Don't worry about writing me back. I just wrote (with too many words, as usual) to thank you for your response and apologize for coming across the way I did. Thank you very much for your time and insight. I'll be checking the site from time to time to see what's new.
God bless you,
David
I'm living proof!
Sent in by Justin Taylor
At the age of 18, I have witnessed God firsthand! I wanted proof and I got proof! More than I could handle! God spoke to me and showed me that the way i was living wasn't right and that He is coming back to Earth soon! he also told me to inform His people of His return. I have completely devoted my life to God and nothing can convince me that He isn't real. I have witnessed Him heal cancer through MY prayers! I myself was dealing weed for years, smoking 4 blunts a day, a pack of cigs a day, had an infinite supply of porn along with an addiction and had tried just abvout every drug on the market, was having sex left and right and didn't care less for life! I changed that cold turkey when God came and showed me the TRUTH! There are over 500 prophesies listed in the Bible that have came to pass within the past decade or so, history proves that Jesus did come to earth as the son of God, and Jesus is mentioned in every other major religion unlike Buddah, Allah, Ra, Television etc.!
If my people, which are called by My name, will humble themselves and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” (2 Chronicles 7:14).
If you think you can prove to me that there is no God, be my guest! I'd love to prove you wrong! I was once like you, but GOD IS TOO GOOD to leave me like you! For all of you used to be Christians who say that you changed because of something bad that happened in your life and you say to yourelf, "Why me?" All I have to say is WHY NOT YOU! Job lost his family, his money, his friends, his health, and everything he had, but he still loved God and trusted him and got back double what he had before!
At the age of 18, I have witnessed God firsthand! I wanted proof and I got proof! More than I could handle! God spoke to me and showed me that the way i was living wasn't right and that He is coming back to Earth soon! he also told me to inform His people of His return. I have completely devoted my life to God and nothing can convince me that He isn't real. I have witnessed Him heal cancer through MY prayers! I myself was dealing weed for years, smoking 4 blunts a day, a pack of cigs a day, had an infinite supply of porn along with an addiction and had tried just abvout every drug on the market, was having sex left and right and didn't care less for life! I changed that cold turkey when God came and showed me the TRUTH! There are over 500 prophesies listed in the Bible that have came to pass within the past decade or so, history proves that Jesus did come to earth as the son of God, and Jesus is mentioned in every other major religion unlike Buddah, Allah, Ra, Television etc.!
If my people, which are called by My name, will humble themselves and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” (2 Chronicles 7:14).
If you think you can prove to me that there is no God, be my guest! I'd love to prove you wrong! I was once like you, but GOD IS TOO GOOD to leave me like you! For all of you used to be Christians who say that you changed because of something bad that happened in your life and you say to yourelf, "Why me?" All I have to say is WHY NOT YOU! Job lost his family, his money, his friends, his health, and everything he had, but he still loved God and trusted him and got back double what he had before!
You are not an x-Christian!
You should all be ashamed of yourselves, this is one sick site. We will all stand before Almighty God one day, whether you believe it or not. Try searching and you will find the truth, not perfect people but a perfect & loving God. I will pray for you as I know someone must have prayed for me before I found God.
None of you ever were a Christian, you have no faith, no belief, no hope and no future. You are a bunch of angry, hurting, empty people. Jesus came to take you away from all of that, but you not only reject his free gift, you through it out without even seeing any of it, how very sad. I feel sorry for you, you have no idea what you have done. He died to open a door and you closed it without ever walking in. Christians are not perfect, just forgiven and thats all it takes to be free from the fear, anger and bondage that you are in. I will pray for you, for you are truely deceived by the devil himself. The entire site is blasphemy!!!
The only chance you have is to repent and search for Jesus
Lonnie
29
Idaho
None of you ever were a Christian, you have no faith, no belief, no hope and no future. You are a bunch of angry, hurting, empty people. Jesus came to take you away from all of that, but you not only reject his free gift, you through it out without even seeing any of it, how very sad. I feel sorry for you, you have no idea what you have done. He died to open a door and you closed it without ever walking in. Christians are not perfect, just forgiven and thats all it takes to be free from the fear, anger and bondage that you are in. I will pray for you, for you are truely deceived by the devil himself. The entire site is blasphemy!!!
The only chance you have is to repent and search for Jesus
Lonnie
29
Idaho
What were the Christian Crusades?
By Imaginary Sky Daddy
I’ve been coming to this site for roughly a year now. I’m a fellow ex, and since I let go of the mind cult, I am more happy than I couldn’t have imagined while being a jebus freak. Anyway, I came across this essay on the Crusades from a Christian’s standpoint. I hope that you will have an interest in it, and I look forward to reading the great defending comments that the great people of this site can offer. Thanks for creating this wonderful website that hurting and lonely people that have come to their senses can come to for comfort by others who have their same views, Dave.
Question: "What were the Christian crusades?"
Answer: The crusades are among the most frequent objections to the Christian faith. Some Islamic terrorists even claim that their terrorist attacks are revenge for what Christians did in the crusades. So, what were the crusades and why are they viewed as such a big problem for the Christian faith?
First of all, the crusades should not be referred to as the "Christian crusades." Most of the people involved in the crusades were not truly Christians...even though they claimed to be. The Name of Christ was abused, misused, and blasphemed by the actions of many of the crusaders. Secondly, the crusades took place from approximately 1095 to 1230 A.D. That was between 775 and 910 years ago. Should the unbiblical and un-Christ-like actions of supposed Christians 1000 years ago still be held against Christians today?
Third, not that this is an adequate excuse, but Christianity is not the only religion with a violent past. In actuality, the crusades were responses to Muslim invasions on what was once land occupied primarily by Christians. From approximately 200 A.D. to approximately 900 A.D. the land of Israel, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, etc. was inhabited primarily by Christians. Once Islam began to spread and become powerful, Muslims invaded these lands and brutally oppressed, enslaved, deported, and even murdered the Christians living in those lands. In response, the Roman Catholic Church and "Christian" kings / emperors from Europe ordered the crusades to reclaim the land the Muslims had taken. The actions that many so-called Christians took in the crusades were still deplorable. There is no Biblical justification for conquering lands, murdering civilians, and destroying cities in the Name of Jesus Christ. At the same time, Islam is not a religion that can speak from a position of innocence in these matters.
For a good, historical, and balanced summary of the various crusades, please read the following article - http://www.theopedia.com/Crusades.
To summarize briefly, the crusades were attempts by "Christians" in the 10th through 12th centuries A.D. to reclaim land in the Middle East that had been conquered by Muslims / Arabs. The crusades were brutal and evil. Many people were forced to "convert" to Christianity. If they refused, they were put to death. This is blatantly unbiblical...and perhaps that is the best summary of the issue. The idea of conquering a land through war and violence in the Name of Christ is completely unbiblical. The crusades may have been done by so-called Christians...but many of the actions that took place in the crusades were completely antithetical to everything the Christian faith should stand for.
How can we respond when, as a result of the crusades, the Christian faith is attacked by atheists, agnostics, skeptics, and those of other religions? We can respond in the following ways: (1) Do you want to be held accountable for the actions of people who lived 900+ years ago? (2) Do you want to be held accountable for the actions of everyone who claims to represent your faith? Trying to blame all of Christianity for the crusades is analogous to blaming all Muslims for Islamic terrorism.
Recommended Resource: Christianity Through the Centuries by Earle Cairns.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-crusades.html
I’ve been coming to this site for roughly a year now. I’m a fellow ex, and since I let go of the mind cult, I am more happy than I couldn’t have imagined while being a jebus freak. Anyway, I came across this essay on the Crusades from a Christian’s standpoint. I hope that you will have an interest in it, and I look forward to reading the great defending comments that the great people of this site can offer. Thanks for creating this wonderful website that hurting and lonely people that have come to their senses can come to for comfort by others who have their same views, Dave.
Question: "What were the Christian crusades?"
Answer: The crusades are among the most frequent objections to the Christian faith. Some Islamic terrorists even claim that their terrorist attacks are revenge for what Christians did in the crusades. So, what were the crusades and why are they viewed as such a big problem for the Christian faith?
First of all, the crusades should not be referred to as the "Christian crusades." Most of the people involved in the crusades were not truly Christians...even though they claimed to be. The Name of Christ was abused, misused, and blasphemed by the actions of many of the crusaders. Secondly, the crusades took place from approximately 1095 to 1230 A.D. That was between 775 and 910 years ago. Should the unbiblical and un-Christ-like actions of supposed Christians 1000 years ago still be held against Christians today?
Third, not that this is an adequate excuse, but Christianity is not the only religion with a violent past. In actuality, the crusades were responses to Muslim invasions on what was once land occupied primarily by Christians. From approximately 200 A.D. to approximately 900 A.D. the land of Israel, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, etc. was inhabited primarily by Christians. Once Islam began to spread and become powerful, Muslims invaded these lands and brutally oppressed, enslaved, deported, and even murdered the Christians living in those lands. In response, the Roman Catholic Church and "Christian" kings / emperors from Europe ordered the crusades to reclaim the land the Muslims had taken. The actions that many so-called Christians took in the crusades were still deplorable. There is no Biblical justification for conquering lands, murdering civilians, and destroying cities in the Name of Jesus Christ. At the same time, Islam is not a religion that can speak from a position of innocence in these matters.
For a good, historical, and balanced summary of the various crusades, please read the following article - http://www.theopedia.com/Crusades.
To summarize briefly, the crusades were attempts by "Christians" in the 10th through 12th centuries A.D. to reclaim land in the Middle East that had been conquered by Muslims / Arabs. The crusades were brutal and evil. Many people were forced to "convert" to Christianity. If they refused, they were put to death. This is blatantly unbiblical...and perhaps that is the best summary of the issue. The idea of conquering a land through war and violence in the Name of Christ is completely unbiblical. The crusades may have been done by so-called Christians...but many of the actions that took place in the crusades were completely antithetical to everything the Christian faith should stand for.
How can we respond when, as a result of the crusades, the Christian faith is attacked by atheists, agnostics, skeptics, and those of other religions? We can respond in the following ways: (1) Do you want to be held accountable for the actions of people who lived 900+ years ago? (2) Do you want to be held accountable for the actions of everyone who claims to represent your faith? Trying to blame all of Christianity for the crusades is analogous to blaming all Muslims for Islamic terrorism.
Recommended Resource: Christianity Through the Centuries by Earle Cairns.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-crusades.html
What next?
From Steve:
It seems that many people who cease to be Christian feel some kind of relief as a result. It is almost as if they had taken off something that was ill-fitting and felt the relief at its absence: like taking off shoes which are a size too small. But what sort of religion did they have in the beginning? Why did it fit so badly? Christianity is not meant to be burdensome; quite the opposite. As Jesus said, "Take my yolk and put it on you, and learn from me, because I am gentle and humble in spirit, and you will find rest. For the yoke I give you is easy, and the load I put on you is light." [Matthew 11:29-30] In fact God's perfect teaching makes people free. [James 1:25] It is the truth that sets you free. [John 6:32] What was going on before the decision to quit? When did you look back after you started to plow for the Kingdom of God? [Luke 9:62] What had been the progress since you were born again? Had you matured as a Christian or were you never really converted at all? How did your pastor, elders and Christian friends react when they saw your faith slipping away, just dying, or did your conversion to atheism come in a Damascene moment?
What are you doing to advance your atheism now? Through the intervention of the Holy Spirit working within them and the application of spiritual disciplines, Christians seek to deepen their faith and their relationship with God through prayer; studying and memorizing, and meditating upon, God's Word; fasting; solitude; frugality; collective worship; community service; giving; and witnessing. They have the example of Jesus to follow as His disciples. We develop, we strive and we grow. "I don't look back, I lengthen my stride, as I run straight towards the goal to win the prize that God's heavenly call offers us in Christ Jesus." [Philippians 3:13-14] Christianity gives purpose, direction and reward.
As an atheist what do you do? What sort of introspection or quiet time do you have each day? What books do you study daily to search for the truth? Whose example do you follow? Whose authority do you accept? What disciplines do you practise to grow and mature your atheism? Do you have an accountability partner or support group like the Promise Keepers to help you overcome any lingering spiritual inclination? Where does it lead? Or does it require no effort at all on your part and lead nowhere?
It seems that many people who cease to be Christian feel some kind of relief as a result. It is almost as if they had taken off something that was ill-fitting and felt the relief at its absence: like taking off shoes which are a size too small. But what sort of religion did they have in the beginning? Why did it fit so badly? Christianity is not meant to be burdensome; quite the opposite. As Jesus said, "Take my yolk and put it on you, and learn from me, because I am gentle and humble in spirit, and you will find rest. For the yoke I give you is easy, and the load I put on you is light." [Matthew 11:29-30] In fact God's perfect teaching makes people free. [James 1:25] It is the truth that sets you free. [John 6:32] What was going on before the decision to quit? When did you look back after you started to plow for the Kingdom of God? [Luke 9:62] What had been the progress since you were born again? Had you matured as a Christian or were you never really converted at all? How did your pastor, elders and Christian friends react when they saw your faith slipping away, just dying, or did your conversion to atheism come in a Damascene moment?
What are you doing to advance your atheism now? Through the intervention of the Holy Spirit working within them and the application of spiritual disciplines, Christians seek to deepen their faith and their relationship with God through prayer; studying and memorizing, and meditating upon, God's Word; fasting; solitude; frugality; collective worship; community service; giving; and witnessing. They have the example of Jesus to follow as His disciples. We develop, we strive and we grow. "I don't look back, I lengthen my stride, as I run straight towards the goal to win the prize that God's heavenly call offers us in Christ Jesus." [Philippians 3:13-14] Christianity gives purpose, direction and reward.
As an atheist what do you do? What sort of introspection or quiet time do you have each day? What books do you study daily to search for the truth? Whose example do you follow? Whose authority do you accept? What disciplines do you practise to grow and mature your atheism? Do you have an accountability partner or support group like the Promise Keepers to help you overcome any lingering spiritual inclination? Where does it lead? Or does it require no effort at all on your part and lead nowhere?
I love you guys
Thank you very much webmaster for taking your time to read this letter. My name is paul and I am a christian. You posted a letter I wrote a couple of months ago and I thank you for that. Though we are at odds with each other about the reality of the faith of Christ, I believe you and your fellow site members present your arguments well. However the issue I wanted to bring up to you was the subject of evil and the God of Scripture. I have read many articles on this site that shows the inconsistent reality between an all loving, all powerful and all knowing God and the problem of nature and prevailling evil. I do agree that if you are dealing with a general theistic god or even the god of deism, there is no real answer to why such a god would allow evil if he were all loving and all powerfull. However even though no one on this site accepts the God of the Bible as being real, you can't deny the fact that the argument of evil could not disprove the Biblical God. The reason being that this God is a God of revelation, and He has revealed His plan for sin and evil. The problem with the regular contructs of the theistic god and deistic god is that they are not gods of divine revelation, and henceforth we can not know thier true entents. In most cases theisic philosophers borrow atributes from the Biblical God and apply them to thier own ideas of a Supreme Being. Now please understand I am not saying any of this proves that God exists, I am simply trying to make an argument that the problem of evil isen't a problem for the Christian God. You may not like this God's plans, you may not want to love Him, but you can't say He does not exist on this point alone. I do believe that people do create personel gods in thier own minds and the god Americans refer to in most cases is not the God of the Bible. I would really love to here everyones response and hear different veiw points. I love you guys, and God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit loves you infinitly more.
Paul
Paul
Eternity in hell
Christianity takes advantage of humans' biggest weakness: fear. The fear of "spending eternity in hell". This scare-tactic brings in a lot of believers. Heaven, likewise, takes advantage of the fact that man must be sustained in suffering by a hope so high that no conflict with actuality can dash it; so high that no fulfillment can satisfy it: a hope reaching out beyond this world.
Faith and reason are opposites: faith meaning the will to avoid knowing what is true since reason needs justification or an explanation of a belief through facts and logic. A common thought among Christians is that because faith gives pleasure and the hope that god will shew mercy unto the thousands that love him and obey his laws, because he is a jealous god, it therefore is true. When faith is exalted above everything else, it necessarily that reason, knowledge and patient inquiry have to be discredited: the road to the truth becomes a forbidden road and a sin to pursue it. The priest rules through invention of sin and knows of only one great danger: science. But science flourishes, on the whole only under favorable conditions: a man must have time, he must have an overflowing intellect in order to 'know.' When the natural consequences of an act are no longer "natural," but are regarded as produced by the ghostly creations of superstition: by "God," by "spirits," by "souls." and reckoned as merely "moral" consequences, as rewards, as punishments, as hints, as lessons, then the whole ground-work of knowledge is destroyed; then the greatest crimes against humanity has been perpetrated.
Christianity in my opinion is incredibly hypocritical. A Christian starts his or her day with a certain set of values and rules knowing that he or she will be violated and broken and will have to ask for forgiveness at the end of the day. No successful business man, politician or even priest for that matter, can perform and live in today's society without willingly and knowingly violating all the rules of Christianity. That being said only furthers the belief that faith just gives pleasure and security to those who choose to believe in god and obey his laws.
Chris Lozano
email: axlthekid at gmail dot com
Faith and reason are opposites: faith meaning the will to avoid knowing what is true since reason needs justification or an explanation of a belief through facts and logic. A common thought among Christians is that because faith gives pleasure and the hope that god will shew mercy unto the thousands that love him and obey his laws, because he is a jealous god, it therefore is true. When faith is exalted above everything else, it necessarily that reason, knowledge and patient inquiry have to be discredited: the road to the truth becomes a forbidden road and a sin to pursue it. The priest rules through invention of sin and knows of only one great danger: science. But science flourishes, on the whole only under favorable conditions: a man must have time, he must have an overflowing intellect in order to 'know.' When the natural consequences of an act are no longer "natural," but are regarded as produced by the ghostly creations of superstition: by "God," by "spirits," by "souls." and reckoned as merely "moral" consequences, as rewards, as punishments, as hints, as lessons, then the whole ground-work of knowledge is destroyed; then the greatest crimes against humanity has been perpetrated.
Christianity in my opinion is incredibly hypocritical. A Christian starts his or her day with a certain set of values and rules knowing that he or she will be violated and broken and will have to ask for forgiveness at the end of the day. No successful business man, politician or even priest for that matter, can perform and live in today's society without willingly and knowingly violating all the rules of Christianity. That being said only furthers the belief that faith just gives pleasure and security to those who choose to believe in god and obey his laws.
Chris Lozano
email: axlthekid at gmail dot com
Quit gambling with eternity!
I stumbled upon your website by divine accident and was amazed to see such a large forum of high stake gamblers at work, emailing and blogging and otherwise displaying their addiction to the greatest gamble of all - betting that God does not exist. It appears that most if not all of your subscribers look at other people and how they act and what they say in order to find God. Rather ridiculous wouldn't you say? Let God speak for himself. What have you got to lose? If He doesn't exist then nothing in your life will change. If He does exist then it will change drastically.
Just say "God if you are real, then come into my heart and change me, change my life, show me that your are real."
As we used to say on the playground......double dare ya.
Mark
Email:prov616@yahoo.com
Just say "God if you are real, then come into my heart and change me, change my life, show me that your are real."
As we used to say on the playground......double dare ya.
Mark
Email:prov616@yahoo.com
Desperation
I never believed in religion. When I was 5 years old in Catholic school They taught us about the "devil." I wet my bed and start hallucinating because I was so scared of the Devil.
I had to go to Sunday school. I would ask question about the Bible readings, like how and why, and I would never get a valid answer. So I started reading the Bible with an open mind trying to understand and believe the stories. I finally gave up.
I stupidly would ask my religious friends questions and would go to church with them. After seeing a couple different religious meetings and talking in tongues, I lost complete "hope" that I would ever believe in religion.
When I met my biological family (I was adopted) they all tried to convert me, and when I got married my mother-in-law tried to convert me as well. I have a son and everyone is upset that he isn't baptized. Ridiculous.
The other day I was flipping through the channels and I saw this Christian lady preaching about desperation. I started to listen. This woman was saying she was grateful that people converted to Christianity out of desperation. I just couldn't believe it, but she was right!
When you're desperate your mind is easily brainwashed into believing things you wouldn't. And she admitted it! I just couldn't believe it.
What do you think?
Maggie
I had to go to Sunday school. I would ask question about the Bible readings, like how and why, and I would never get a valid answer. So I started reading the Bible with an open mind trying to understand and believe the stories. I finally gave up.
I stupidly would ask my religious friends questions and would go to church with them. After seeing a couple different religious meetings and talking in tongues, I lost complete "hope" that I would ever believe in religion.
When I met my biological family (I was adopted) they all tried to convert me, and when I got married my mother-in-law tried to convert me as well. I have a son and everyone is upset that he isn't baptized. Ridiculous.
The other day I was flipping through the channels and I saw this Christian lady preaching about desperation. I started to listen. This woman was saying she was grateful that people converted to Christianity out of desperation. I just couldn't believe it, but she was right!
When you're desperate your mind is easily brainwashed into believing things you wouldn't. And she admitted it! I just couldn't believe it.
What do you think?
Maggie
Are you really looking at yourself?
Sent in by Nunya
I found this site by pure mistake. I could not resist reading some of what is being said. I notice the right side of the window is always the same. Asking for donations, selling books, and other paraphanalia to promote an anti-christian point of view. But mostly making it excessively easy to donate money.
I looked for 10min to find the link to "post". It is called "Submit a Testimony"
Before you get to the free form box to write what you have to say there is a long list of little boxes to fill out. Your story title, name, age, gender, etc....
Then there is a questionaire, all about when did you become a christian, why, when did you stop, why, how do you label yourself and what is your email addr?
Well I did not answer any of the questions but I am not trying to hide behind any type of dogma; either for or against christianity.
If you want to reply and tell me off or voice your opinion my email addr is:
way2muchfingbs@yahoo.com
All I wanted to say to anyone who may read this is, sounds to me like you are trading one type of religion for another, you still give all your support, both emotional and especially financial to this web site and this belief system (or would that be unbelief system?)......so what is the point of participating?
To save everyone else from a terrible mistake? To share your story of "un-redemption"? Sounds like Sunday morning or Wednesday night at church to me (or would that be unchurch?)
So my question is: except for the staggering list of opposite verbs, what the hell difference is there between this and any other religion, christian or otherwise?
Oh and I don't give a flying flip about your answer because the answer is important to you, so if you think about it at all, just answer the question for yourself....
Maybe you should just take a walk and spend some time getting to know YOU instead of feeding into someone else telling you what to think........like those people you are trying to save from religion are doing. Maybe if you would spend some energy talking to YOURSELF, writing letters to YOURSELF, then you would "hear" what you have missed.
You are no different than people who call themselves christians, your just on the other side of the table now, still in the argument, still playing the game. Still using some dogma to avoid really looking at yourself.
Personally, I don't give a rat's ass what you believe as long as you don't think hurting other people is o.k. And if you think about it; it doesn't matter who says what the truth is or isn't, we all find out when we die. So why waste your time being negative or allowing other negative people to have space in your life? It doesn't matter if they say they are for or against religion or christianity or anything else.
What matters is the amount of love and caring you can find to give and share with the people that matter to you. What matters is if you help someone because you want to or becuase you think you will get something out of it. Why does it matter? Who are you doing it for? For yourself, for the people that you love, that's all. That is really all there is, and if there is a God in there somewhere, you will find him all on your own without a church or anti-church or religion or anti-religion humping on your back.
So are you really looking at yourself?
I found this site by pure mistake. I could not resist reading some of what is being said. I notice the right side of the window is always the same. Asking for donations, selling books, and other paraphanalia to promote an anti-christian point of view. But mostly making it excessively easy to donate money.
I looked for 10min to find the link to "post". It is called "Submit a Testimony"
Before you get to the free form box to write what you have to say there is a long list of little boxes to fill out. Your story title, name, age, gender, etc....
Then there is a questionaire, all about when did you become a christian, why, when did you stop, why, how do you label yourself and what is your email addr?
Well I did not answer any of the questions but I am not trying to hide behind any type of dogma; either for or against christianity.
If you want to reply and tell me off or voice your opinion my email addr is:
way2muchfingbs@yahoo.com
All I wanted to say to anyone who may read this is, sounds to me like you are trading one type of religion for another, you still give all your support, both emotional and especially financial to this web site and this belief system (or would that be unbelief system?)......so what is the point of participating?
To save everyone else from a terrible mistake? To share your story of "un-redemption"? Sounds like Sunday morning or Wednesday night at church to me (or would that be unchurch?)
So my question is: except for the staggering list of opposite verbs, what the hell difference is there between this and any other religion, christian or otherwise?
Oh and I don't give a flying flip about your answer because the answer is important to you, so if you think about it at all, just answer the question for yourself....
Maybe you should just take a walk and spend some time getting to know YOU instead of feeding into someone else telling you what to think........like those people you are trying to save from religion are doing. Maybe if you would spend some energy talking to YOURSELF, writing letters to YOURSELF, then you would "hear" what you have missed.
You are no different than people who call themselves christians, your just on the other side of the table now, still in the argument, still playing the game. Still using some dogma to avoid really looking at yourself.
Personally, I don't give a rat's ass what you believe as long as you don't think hurting other people is o.k. And if you think about it; it doesn't matter who says what the truth is or isn't, we all find out when we die. So why waste your time being negative or allowing other negative people to have space in your life? It doesn't matter if they say they are for or against religion or christianity or anything else.
What matters is the amount of love and caring you can find to give and share with the people that matter to you. What matters is if you help someone because you want to or becuase you think you will get something out of it. Why does it matter? Who are you doing it for? For yourself, for the people that you love, that's all. That is really all there is, and if there is a God in there somewhere, you will find him all on your own without a church or anti-church or religion or anti-religion humping on your back.
So are you really looking at yourself?
Leaving Another Myth
Initially I thought this would be a bad idea. It feels like a violation of what this site is about. But the belief I'm rejecting is the last remnant of my forsaken faith, namely Intelligent Design.
As many of you know, I've popped up in arguments when articles about it have been posted here. I fought for it as an idea that could fit my view of a godless universe. And ultimately that's still true, Intelligent Design doesn't assume God, but it does assume a lot of other things. And I no longer wish to be associated with this ignorance.
Thanks to more study on my part, and allowing myself to open up to the information, I've come to understand and agree with the evolutionary worldview and process. As with religious conversion or erasure, a decision like this took time. And as it is, I still perk up a bit when someone mentions ID, but I am very proud of how the evolutionary process works, and I can see past the design argument, finally.
Dave
Brooklyn, New York
email: tastypaper AT gmail dot com
As many of you know, I've popped up in arguments when articles about it have been posted here. I fought for it as an idea that could fit my view of a godless universe. And ultimately that's still true, Intelligent Design doesn't assume God, but it does assume a lot of other things. And I no longer wish to be associated with this ignorance.
Thanks to more study on my part, and allowing myself to open up to the information, I've come to understand and agree with the evolutionary worldview and process. As with religious conversion or erasure, a decision like this took time. And as it is, I still perk up a bit when someone mentions ID, but I am very proud of how the evolutionary process works, and I can see past the design argument, finally.
Dave
Brooklyn, New York
email: tastypaper AT gmail dot com
No, I wouldn't burn a nun alive
From James van Aarde
(Before anyone has the potential to get offended, the bit about nuns is a joke. I have never in fact struck another human being and the idea of ACTUALLY burning someone to death is of course highly offensive)
I simply don’t know where to start. This is not exactly a story of de-conversion and I apologize if this is the wrong place to post this – If anything is certain it’s that the very act of writing this will make me feel a little better about the awful things I have witnessed tonight.
Let me begin with some background on myself – I live in South Africa and my parents sent me to a catholic school because apartheid (or at least the ripples thereof) was still in effect (what an awful situation that was) and it was one of the few schools in our city that offered a multi-racial education. I’ll give them that – Not particularly fussy about whom they brainwashed.
In order to label this a de-conversion story I’ll assume that at some point in my twelve years in this system I believed that Jesus was the son of God and there was this holy spirit (we were taught ghost) floating around. At some point though I began to acquire the amazing superpower of rational thought™ and (luckily for me) this was pretty much the dissolution of Catholicism (and all the other supernatural nonsense that was part and parcel) in my mind. It sucked though because I sure wasn’t falling for any of it but you are told in no uncertain terms that you are going to BURN IN HELL FOREVER almost no matter what you do, forced to attend mass, say confession (to a priest pissed on whiskey) as well as it being made perfectly clear that if you speak out or ask questions you are pretty much going to have your ass kicked by a nun. Ah, the wonderful memories of my youth.
I am now at the ripe old age of twenty four and I realized the other day that I only stopped praying about two years ago. Unbelievable. If I did not have a strict moral code to live by (gasp! morals in the absence of religion?!!) I would go back to that hell-hole (pun indeed intended) and take a flamethrower to the place. I’m ashamed to admit that the image of a group of nuns frantically flailing about, habits aflame is a slightly erotic one for me. No, I’m only kidding – I’m not actually ashamed to admit it. At least I’m not telling them that they have a chance of roasting in hell FOREVER. At least all I want to do is kill them ONCE. It’s impossible to conceive, this concept of eternity – I used to lie in bed at night totally freaking out with the thought that I might not dig it in heaven and if so, what the bloody hell am I going to there for all of eternity? The concept of hell for eternity was, I think, impossible for me to grasp, otherwise I would probably have tried to kill myself, except of course that would have sent me straight down (these people have an answer for everything don’t they?).
As I said I only stopped praying about two years ago so it has taken me a number of years to finally shake off the last vestiges of Catholicism/HellFearDeathHorror syndrome.
That’s my story of religion in my life.
Or at least I wish it was.
My grandparents are very traditional Afrikaans people and therefore very involved in their church – The same bunch of idiots who justified apartheid by quoting verses from the bible. Of course since apartheid ended the church has apologized but still… I think when it comes to something like that (for all intents and purposes treating non-whites as an inferior race) what’s an apology really worth? Anyhow, I could be mistaken about this but I really doubt that you are going to stumble upon a lot of black people in their church, even today. Although that’s great – The less people supporting that nonsense the better.
Man I’m waffling. I do apologize. It’s late (2:30 A.M) but I’m going to write until I have this all off of my chest.
Point is, aside from my nuclear family I’m related to a LOT of very religious people – Different churches but at the end of the day all Christian in one form or the other. And something I’ve had to put up with my whole life is a subtle yet very obvious feeling that I’m not… quite as good/special/blessed/whatever as my religious relatives. Don’t get me wrong I’m not boo-hooing or anything – It’s just unbelievable how people can totally disregard your character (I think I’m a relatively cool guy) and pass judgment on you simply because you have trouble buying into their particular brand of superstition.
I’ll try and cut a long story short:
Last week I had a band with two other very awesome human beings. We had played a couple of gigs which went awesomely and we were, I think, on the verge of international super-stardom ;). In all seriousness it was a future oriented activity for all of us and we were giving it our all in order to try and make a success of it.
Then last Thursday our drummer came over and told me (to nutshell it) that he had became a reborn again Christian and that he had to leave the band as a sacrifice to Jesus. To prove his love or something I think. Which brought up the question (which I posed to him) of why an all knowing god would need to have anything PROVED to him. I still don’t really get it – Seems he/she/it is a little on the insecure side.
Anyhow, this brand of Christianity, while not being totally new to me was mostly pretty alien territory and I have spent the last week attempting to understand it all. I know that I haven’t scraped the surface of the whole issue but I think I may have a definite handle on the whole thing. I’d imagine that you are probably the last people in the world who need to hear about the absurdity of original sin (what’s it got to do with me) and Jesus dying for those sins (again, what’s it got to do with me? And he’s an immortal all knowing god who must have known how the whole thing was going to play out anyhow). For sure I’ve heard or read just about all the arguments and rationalizations in the past couple of days but EVERY SINGLE TIME I bring up ANYTHING that would actually challenge their universe it’s either I don’t know yet/the other Christian (brain #2) will know or the lord works in mysterious ways/Puny humans have not the right nor the capability to even begin to understand God. I’d love to be tolerant but it’s a pathetic cop-out. I think, above all, we as the human species have to try and find a way to operate smoothly on this earth together and I’m rapidly coming to the conclusion that without religion that would be about half the battle won.
Back (finally) to the events of tonight:
I went to church with my ex-drummer because I still hope (in vain I’m beginning to realize) that his massive emotional paradigm shift can be opposed with a good sensible dose of reason and I want to show him that I’m willing to check out his side of things. Well, it was sickening. Being outside of their lovesick/delusional? framework the service, I think, really showed itself for what it was. The charade began with a bit of praise and worship (swaying/singing/muttering/flag waving) which was followed by a rather hectoring (it seemed) request for money. I was even told that I could (should/must) borrow money from my neighbor if I had none… While asking (demanding?) for money the pastor brought up two things that disturbed me – He said his cousin (a non-believer) had died two days ago and that if his cousin could rewind the day died, he would have accepted Jesus into his heart. I don’t think I need to point out how unbelievably presumptuous and callous a statement like that is not to mention the thinly veiled reference to death/hell/worship = more money to God if you don’t want to fry. The second thing that annoyed me was he kept on harping on about how Gods love is priceless so give, give, give! As much as you can afford plus 10%. This really pisses me off because South Africa is a seriously poor country for a lot of its inhabitants and I somehow doubt that *god* for all of his priceless love is actually going to see any of that money…
Then the guest pastor spoke. Horrible little toad of a man. Wobbling jowls, the lot. Again, two things that really grated my carrot – His entire sermon was based on a mistranslation of (I’m a little hazy here, hadn’t eaten the whole day and I smoked (used to) cannabis for six years which has not done wonders for my memory) I think the Greek word for word. Now the guy was somehow trying to explain why God never actually seems to respond even though you, as a devout Christian, have dedicated your entire existence to him. What struck me as odd though is that he stated that the entire bible (“from Genesis to Revelation”) was translated from Greek. Now, in my last couple of days of admittedly rather amateurish research the bible (or at least the various bits and pieces that eventually became the bible as we know it today) stems from Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek. To base an entire sermon on the lie that it was all written in Greek is, well, a LIE. I mean the guy really made it sound like somewhere out there in the world is the original bible which is similar to the modern bible except that it is written in Greek and that even ordained ministers/scholars have a hard time translating it. Ridiculous.
I’m almost done! Have you read this far? I commend you ;).
The second thing that got my goat was that after all this he started telling a long story about a woman who had cancer and how her faith miraculously healed her (!) never mind the fact that she had undergone an operation as well as chemotherapy. I honestly cannot think of many things more pathetic and irresponsible than leading people to believe that their faith is going to cure their illnesses. Not to mention that if they do die their faith was obviously not strong enough which does not bode well for them…
I had to leave at that point. I simply could not take it any more.
Crazy. I feel like I’m living in the twilight zone.
I’m all for freedom of religion (freedom of anything really, providing it does not hurt you or the species that have to inhabit the earth with you) and I will stand up for people to have the right to believe whatever they wish. But a mind-control cult that teaches people that they are worthless sinners and that miracles are possible. I think not.
*phew*
I DO feel better. But tired. Its two minutes past four in the morning.
I’m a high-school drop out so please excuse all the commas :)
Later,
James van Aarde
Port Elizabeth
Eastern Cape
South Africa
email: twenty_five_hour_day At hotmail dot com
(Before anyone has the potential to get offended, the bit about nuns is a joke. I have never in fact struck another human being and the idea of ACTUALLY burning someone to death is of course highly offensive)
I simply don’t know where to start. This is not exactly a story of de-conversion and I apologize if this is the wrong place to post this – If anything is certain it’s that the very act of writing this will make me feel a little better about the awful things I have witnessed tonight.
Let me begin with some background on myself – I live in South Africa and my parents sent me to a catholic school because apartheid (or at least the ripples thereof) was still in effect (what an awful situation that was) and it was one of the few schools in our city that offered a multi-racial education. I’ll give them that – Not particularly fussy about whom they brainwashed.
In order to label this a de-conversion story I’ll assume that at some point in my twelve years in this system I believed that Jesus was the son of God and there was this holy spirit (we were taught ghost) floating around. At some point though I began to acquire the amazing superpower of rational thought™ and (luckily for me) this was pretty much the dissolution of Catholicism (and all the other supernatural nonsense that was part and parcel) in my mind. It sucked though because I sure wasn’t falling for any of it but you are told in no uncertain terms that you are going to BURN IN HELL FOREVER almost no matter what you do, forced to attend mass, say confession (to a priest pissed on whiskey) as well as it being made perfectly clear that if you speak out or ask questions you are pretty much going to have your ass kicked by a nun. Ah, the wonderful memories of my youth.
I am now at the ripe old age of twenty four and I realized the other day that I only stopped praying about two years ago. Unbelievable. If I did not have a strict moral code to live by (gasp! morals in the absence of religion?!!) I would go back to that hell-hole (pun indeed intended) and take a flamethrower to the place. I’m ashamed to admit that the image of a group of nuns frantically flailing about, habits aflame is a slightly erotic one for me. No, I’m only kidding – I’m not actually ashamed to admit it. At least I’m not telling them that they have a chance of roasting in hell FOREVER. At least all I want to do is kill them ONCE. It’s impossible to conceive, this concept of eternity – I used to lie in bed at night totally freaking out with the thought that I might not dig it in heaven and if so, what the bloody hell am I going to there for all of eternity? The concept of hell for eternity was, I think, impossible for me to grasp, otherwise I would probably have tried to kill myself, except of course that would have sent me straight down (these people have an answer for everything don’t they?).
As I said I only stopped praying about two years ago so it has taken me a number of years to finally shake off the last vestiges of Catholicism/HellFearDeathHorror syndrome.
That’s my story of religion in my life.
Or at least I wish it was.
My grandparents are very traditional Afrikaans people and therefore very involved in their church – The same bunch of idiots who justified apartheid by quoting verses from the bible. Of course since apartheid ended the church has apologized but still… I think when it comes to something like that (for all intents and purposes treating non-whites as an inferior race) what’s an apology really worth? Anyhow, I could be mistaken about this but I really doubt that you are going to stumble upon a lot of black people in their church, even today. Although that’s great – The less people supporting that nonsense the better.
Man I’m waffling. I do apologize. It’s late (2:30 A.M) but I’m going to write until I have this all off of my chest.
Point is, aside from my nuclear family I’m related to a LOT of very religious people – Different churches but at the end of the day all Christian in one form or the other. And something I’ve had to put up with my whole life is a subtle yet very obvious feeling that I’m not… quite as good/special/blessed/whatever as my religious relatives. Don’t get me wrong I’m not boo-hooing or anything – It’s just unbelievable how people can totally disregard your character (I think I’m a relatively cool guy) and pass judgment on you simply because you have trouble buying into their particular brand of superstition.
I’ll try and cut a long story short:
Last week I had a band with two other very awesome human beings. We had played a couple of gigs which went awesomely and we were, I think, on the verge of international super-stardom ;). In all seriousness it was a future oriented activity for all of us and we were giving it our all in order to try and make a success of it.
Then last Thursday our drummer came over and told me (to nutshell it) that he had became a reborn again Christian and that he had to leave the band as a sacrifice to Jesus. To prove his love or something I think. Which brought up the question (which I posed to him) of why an all knowing god would need to have anything PROVED to him. I still don’t really get it – Seems he/she/it is a little on the insecure side.
Anyhow, this brand of Christianity, while not being totally new to me was mostly pretty alien territory and I have spent the last week attempting to understand it all. I know that I haven’t scraped the surface of the whole issue but I think I may have a definite handle on the whole thing. I’d imagine that you are probably the last people in the world who need to hear about the absurdity of original sin (what’s it got to do with me) and Jesus dying for those sins (again, what’s it got to do with me? And he’s an immortal all knowing god who must have known how the whole thing was going to play out anyhow). For sure I’ve heard or read just about all the arguments and rationalizations in the past couple of days but EVERY SINGLE TIME I bring up ANYTHING that would actually challenge their universe it’s either I don’t know yet/the other Christian (brain #2) will know or the lord works in mysterious ways/Puny humans have not the right nor the capability to even begin to understand God. I’d love to be tolerant but it’s a pathetic cop-out. I think, above all, we as the human species have to try and find a way to operate smoothly on this earth together and I’m rapidly coming to the conclusion that without religion that would be about half the battle won.
Back (finally) to the events of tonight:
I went to church with my ex-drummer because I still hope (in vain I’m beginning to realize) that his massive emotional paradigm shift can be opposed with a good sensible dose of reason and I want to show him that I’m willing to check out his side of things. Well, it was sickening. Being outside of their lovesick/delusional? framework the service, I think, really showed itself for what it was. The charade began with a bit of praise and worship (swaying/singing/muttering/flag waving) which was followed by a rather hectoring (it seemed) request for money. I was even told that I could (should/must) borrow money from my neighbor if I had none… While asking (demanding?) for money the pastor brought up two things that disturbed me – He said his cousin (a non-believer) had died two days ago and that if his cousin could rewind the day died, he would have accepted Jesus into his heart. I don’t think I need to point out how unbelievably presumptuous and callous a statement like that is not to mention the thinly veiled reference to death/hell/worship = more money to God if you don’t want to fry. The second thing that annoyed me was he kept on harping on about how Gods love is priceless so give, give, give! As much as you can afford plus 10%. This really pisses me off because South Africa is a seriously poor country for a lot of its inhabitants and I somehow doubt that *god* for all of his priceless love is actually going to see any of that money…
Then the guest pastor spoke. Horrible little toad of a man. Wobbling jowls, the lot. Again, two things that really grated my carrot – His entire sermon was based on a mistranslation of (I’m a little hazy here, hadn’t eaten the whole day and I smoked (used to) cannabis for six years which has not done wonders for my memory) I think the Greek word for word. Now the guy was somehow trying to explain why God never actually seems to respond even though you, as a devout Christian, have dedicated your entire existence to him. What struck me as odd though is that he stated that the entire bible (“from Genesis to Revelation”) was translated from Greek. Now, in my last couple of days of admittedly rather amateurish research the bible (or at least the various bits and pieces that eventually became the bible as we know it today) stems from Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek. To base an entire sermon on the lie that it was all written in Greek is, well, a LIE. I mean the guy really made it sound like somewhere out there in the world is the original bible which is similar to the modern bible except that it is written in Greek and that even ordained ministers/scholars have a hard time translating it. Ridiculous.
I’m almost done! Have you read this far? I commend you ;).
The second thing that got my goat was that after all this he started telling a long story about a woman who had cancer and how her faith miraculously healed her (!) never mind the fact that she had undergone an operation as well as chemotherapy. I honestly cannot think of many things more pathetic and irresponsible than leading people to believe that their faith is going to cure their illnesses. Not to mention that if they do die their faith was obviously not strong enough which does not bode well for them…
I had to leave at that point. I simply could not take it any more.
Crazy. I feel like I’m living in the twilight zone.
I’m all for freedom of religion (freedom of anything really, providing it does not hurt you or the species that have to inhabit the earth with you) and I will stand up for people to have the right to believe whatever they wish. But a mind-control cult that teaches people that they are worthless sinners and that miracles are possible. I think not.
*phew*
I DO feel better. But tired. Its two minutes past four in the morning.
I’m a high-school drop out so please excuse all the commas :)
Later,
James van Aarde
Port Elizabeth
Eastern Cape
South Africa
email: twenty_five_hour_day At hotmail dot com
Why would the writers of the bible make it up?
At first I still wanted to believe.
I have been reading this site non-stop and I have finally accepted that there is no god.
But one thing keeps calling me back and I need help. Why would the writers of the bible make it up? Most of them never met. I know it's supposed to be "divine," but what's the real answer?
Pease leave me a comment.
Ronnie Snow
I have been reading this site non-stop and I have finally accepted that there is no god.
But one thing keeps calling me back and I need help. Why would the writers of the bible make it up? Most of them never met. I know it's supposed to be "divine," but what's the real answer?
Pease leave me a comment.
Ronnie Snow
A deeply pissed off ex-Christian
Hello, First of all may I thank you for your site. As a deeply pissed off ex-Christian myself, it is excellent to finally find a community of people who think as I do. It has made me laugh and feel better about myself, and has armed me to the teeth against the Christians I am currently surrounded by.
You seem like someone who is ever open to debate and I have one question for you that I find interesting. Throughout your site I find Atheism referred to as a morale imperative. My question is this: Without a god or higher power, where does morality come from? If man is the sole arbiter of his fate, and there is no Cosmic justice, why should man not just "Do as thou wilt?"
I often find it fascinating how many atheists reject all gods and powers yet cling to love and morality as higher laws.
Your Thoughts?
From Oldblackeyes
You seem like someone who is ever open to debate and I have one question for you that I find interesting. Throughout your site I find Atheism referred to as a morale imperative. My question is this: Without a god or higher power, where does morality come from? If man is the sole arbiter of his fate, and there is no Cosmic justice, why should man not just "Do as thou wilt?"
I often find it fascinating how many atheists reject all gods and powers yet cling to love and morality as higher laws.
Your Thoughts?
From Oldblackeyes
Your Website is a disgrace to mankind
Well
I was reading your website and saw how rude your behaviour and attitude is towards christianity. You have no right to speak about GOD and the world he has created.
You people dont have a life so u mess around with christians.
Just GO AND GET A LIFE U DUMB PEOPLE.
U have no idea of wats gona happen to you.
this website of urs is going to be taken away from you
And a legal action is going to be taken for the creator of this website.
Three points to remember:
Get a life
Get a life and Get a life
U all ARE COMPLETE RETARDs and always wiil be
Joseph
GOD IS GREAT AND HE CARES FOR US
weloveyou@hotmail.com
I was reading your website and saw how rude your behaviour and attitude is towards christianity. You have no right to speak about GOD and the world he has created.
You people dont have a life so u mess around with christians.
Just GO AND GET A LIFE U DUMB PEOPLE.
U have no idea of wats gona happen to you.
this website of urs is going to be taken away from you
And a legal action is going to be taken for the creator of this website.
Three points to remember:
Get a life
Get a life and Get a life
U all ARE COMPLETE RETARDs and always wiil be
Joseph
GOD IS GREAT AND HE CARES FOR US
weloveyou@hotmail.com
I need some advice...
First of all, I just wanted to thank the Webmaster for this incredible, insightful, informative, encouraging website. It has been a life saver for me.
I left the church 6 years ago and have found the most difficult part of all this is dealing with my family. I love them very much, that’s the problem. I can’t just walk away from them even though sometimes I wish I could.
My dad’s a minister and EVERYONE, including my immediate family and cousins far and wide have their heads so far up their assess with this religious cult that I simply cannot get away from it.
How do you deal with trying to spend time with your family when they think you are “lost?” How horrible is it to see the sadness in your mom and dad’s eyes thinking you are going to burn in hell forever? There is no reasoning with them, they will never understand. This is heartbreaking for me because we used to be so close and they are otherwise good people.
I would appreciate any advice any of you can give me.
Jessica
I left the church 6 years ago and have found the most difficult part of all this is dealing with my family. I love them very much, that’s the problem. I can’t just walk away from them even though sometimes I wish I could.
My dad’s a minister and EVERYONE, including my immediate family and cousins far and wide have their heads so far up their assess with this religious cult that I simply cannot get away from it.
How do you deal with trying to spend time with your family when they think you are “lost?” How horrible is it to see the sadness in your mom and dad’s eyes thinking you are going to burn in hell forever? There is no reasoning with them, they will never understand. This is heartbreaking for me because we used to be so close and they are otherwise good people.
I would appreciate any advice any of you can give me.
Jessica
Many thanks
Hi,
Many thanks for this MUCH NEEDED EXCELLENT website! I think it truly shows just how many people have been fucked up by Christianity! Christianity HAS to be exposed for the evil it actually is!!
Many thanks for the opportunity of finding a site that makes me feel normal again!!
All the best to you and yours!
Realist
Many thanks for this MUCH NEEDED EXCELLENT website! I think it truly shows just how many people have been fucked up by Christianity! Christianity HAS to be exposed for the evil it actually is!!
Many thanks for the opportunity of finding a site that makes me feel normal again!!
All the best to you and yours!
Realist
Unsure With Many Doubts
I really don't know where to start. I was a serious Christian when I turned 19, I think. (Of course I have heard since I am not sure of the exact date of my conversion, then I must not be really saved). I went to a spirit-filled church for five years and to other denominations before that. I stayed in the spirit-filled church because my pastor was, or is, a "prophet", or had a prophetic type gift. I was going through really hard times (emotionally). No one knew my personal life in that church at all, yet somehow he came straight to me on several different occasions to tell me things so accurate and so precise, that I was going through, that it had to be real. The things that he would prophesy were not generalized like you see from a fake fortune teller.
I became very involved in Christianity and knew it had to be real, or I would not see these "gifts of the spirit" in operation.
I have been healed of things miraculously and knew that for those things to happen, there must be a God.
I have seen demon-possessed people speaking in tongues... and these people were for real. I mean there was no faking this stuff. I have actually seen someone thrown around on a floor and jerked in such a manner that their body could not have done that! I knew this person all of my life, knew them to be of sound mind, and watched their body twisted in really unnatural ways. This person could not have been faking. Freaky voices would come out of her and would say things about other people that only those other people knew at the time. She spoke in other languages and she only knows English. There were other people that knew some of these other languages and that is why everyone was so shocked that it would come out of her mouth.
I would normally think, "well I guess anything can be faked," but I know this person, and she is not the type to fake, to want attention, or anything of the sort. She was disabled in her body (her mind completely sound, however), so I know she could not have contorted her body in the weird ways, and slung it around on the floor, or flipped herself over and over all around the church. These things would only happen to her when we would go to church, or watch a movie like that Mel Gibson movie that had to do with Christ.
Everyone was really taken aback by this.
So here is the problem, I have found tons of contradictions in the Bible, only some have been answered enough to suffice.
The rest I have yet to find an answer for. After coming to this site I've found more contradictions or errors that I did not even know about.
I'm not sure what to do about all of this, so I simply don't go to church. It's hard to sit there with all of these questions, knowing no one will take the time to answer them, and when they do, the answers are not sufficient.
I normally, by now, would have concluded Christianity as false. However, after seeing all of these supernatural things, I can not say it is false, either.
I am here because I know there are a lot of Christians out there that have seen the same things, and experienced them as real—not as a hoax or what have you. I am hoping there are some ex-Christians on here that wouldn't mind emailing me if they have had the same experiences and could help bring some sort of light to the subject.
Sandra
jnutz629 at yahoo dot com
I became very involved in Christianity and knew it had to be real, or I would not see these "gifts of the spirit" in operation.
I have been healed of things miraculously and knew that for those things to happen, there must be a God.
I have seen demon-possessed people speaking in tongues... and these people were for real. I mean there was no faking this stuff. I have actually seen someone thrown around on a floor and jerked in such a manner that their body could not have done that! I knew this person all of my life, knew them to be of sound mind, and watched their body twisted in really unnatural ways. This person could not have been faking. Freaky voices would come out of her and would say things about other people that only those other people knew at the time. She spoke in other languages and she only knows English. There were other people that knew some of these other languages and that is why everyone was so shocked that it would come out of her mouth.
I would normally think, "well I guess anything can be faked," but I know this person, and she is not the type to fake, to want attention, or anything of the sort. She was disabled in her body (her mind completely sound, however), so I know she could not have contorted her body in the weird ways, and slung it around on the floor, or flipped herself over and over all around the church. These things would only happen to her when we would go to church, or watch a movie like that Mel Gibson movie that had to do with Christ.
Everyone was really taken aback by this.
So here is the problem, I have found tons of contradictions in the Bible, only some have been answered enough to suffice.
The rest I have yet to find an answer for. After coming to this site I've found more contradictions or errors that I did not even know about.
I'm not sure what to do about all of this, so I simply don't go to church. It's hard to sit there with all of these questions, knowing no one will take the time to answer them, and when they do, the answers are not sufficient.
I normally, by now, would have concluded Christianity as false. However, after seeing all of these supernatural things, I can not say it is false, either.
I am here because I know there are a lot of Christians out there that have seen the same things, and experienced them as real—not as a hoax or what have you. I am hoping there are some ex-Christians on here that wouldn't mind emailing me if they have had the same experiences and could help bring some sort of light to the subject.
Sandra
jnutz629 at yahoo dot com
Calling UK exChristians
I have been reading this site for sometime, and really value the fact there are others out there who are in the same boat as me. I am now convinced, after years of doubt, that Christianity is not true. I now face the huge and scary task of unpicking my life so I can be honest with everyone whilst still maintaining treasured family relationships.
I would really like to pen pal some people via email about all of this- any takers? Particularly interested in being in contact with doubting Christians or convinced exChristians from the UK. My background is Free Evangelical, with a Calvinist slant.
However anyone who wants to write to me is very welcome from anywhere in the world! I hope this doesn't contravene the ethos of the website, but would be very grateful if the webmaster would post this.
Alternatively could there be a UK forum? I don?t have a clue with this web stuff. I would just like to be in touch with people who know the scene over here and are recovering from it. We are all together internationally but would be a relief to know I am not the only one from the UK
Best regards,
Andrew
Email: ukandrewthomas at yahoo dot co dot uk
I would really like to pen pal some people via email about all of this- any takers? Particularly interested in being in contact with doubting Christians or convinced exChristians from the UK. My background is Free Evangelical, with a Calvinist slant.
However anyone who wants to write to me is very welcome from anywhere in the world! I hope this doesn't contravene the ethos of the website, but would be very grateful if the webmaster would post this.
Alternatively could there be a UK forum? I don?t have a clue with this web stuff. I would just like to be in touch with people who know the scene over here and are recovering from it. We are all together internationally but would be a relief to know I am not the only one from the UK
Best regards,
Andrew
Email: ukandrewthomas at yahoo dot co dot uk
Deception
I grew up in the baptist church. My grandmother used to take me along with her to most of the services when I was younger. The pastor at that time had a job. He did not feel it a crime to do repairs on the church himself, with his own hands. He did not hold service all day and beg for money as the pastors do now.
This pastor died when I was about 6 years old. The new pastor that came in was a native of Jacksonville, but moved from New Jersey to uphold his new position.
With him came lots of changes. He is more of a flashy person with the expensive vehicles, the big rings, and fancy house. He has no other job besides his church job.
Whereas the people of the congragation that are giving their hard earned money are/were not so fortunate as to have a better living (some living in projects, cannot even afford tires for their vehicle, etc.).
From reading the bible and from my understandings Jesus did not have the finest things that life could have offered at that time. He went around doing good deeds without looking for money for the services that were preformed.
In my opinion, the pastors of today, mostly money hungry and seeing the church as a business, are ruining things for people that want to be a christian. I have a major problem not only with church but with the money hungry pastors.
My grandmother who live off social security was in process of having her house foreclosed. My family and I have done all we could to help her and also provide for our families too. I asked her recently why she did not go to the church for assistance (since she has been a member before I was born and I am now 25 years old and also she has paid her tithes faithfully out of her social security money when she had rx's to purchase), she told me that she did not want to because this supposed "to be" trusted pastor would and have been known to spread gossip within the church.
Amoung other wrongdoings of this pastor he is thriving better then anyone I know.
I have grown to not trust the people that God has supposed to have been lead to "teach" the word.
I might overcome this but I don't see it anywhere in my near future.
from Nameless Baptist
This pastor died when I was about 6 years old. The new pastor that came in was a native of Jacksonville, but moved from New Jersey to uphold his new position.
With him came lots of changes. He is more of a flashy person with the expensive vehicles, the big rings, and fancy house. He has no other job besides his church job.
Whereas the people of the congragation that are giving their hard earned money are/were not so fortunate as to have a better living (some living in projects, cannot even afford tires for their vehicle, etc.).
From reading the bible and from my understandings Jesus did not have the finest things that life could have offered at that time. He went around doing good deeds without looking for money for the services that were preformed.
In my opinion, the pastors of today, mostly money hungry and seeing the church as a business, are ruining things for people that want to be a christian. I have a major problem not only with church but with the money hungry pastors.
My grandmother who live off social security was in process of having her house foreclosed. My family and I have done all we could to help her and also provide for our families too. I asked her recently why she did not go to the church for assistance (since she has been a member before I was born and I am now 25 years old and also she has paid her tithes faithfully out of her social security money when she had rx's to purchase), she told me that she did not want to because this supposed "to be" trusted pastor would and have been known to spread gossip within the church.
Amoung other wrongdoings of this pastor he is thriving better then anyone I know.
I have grown to not trust the people that God has supposed to have been lead to "teach" the word.
I might overcome this but I don't see it anywhere in my near future.
from Nameless Baptist
a man and his God
sent in by Someone
I was a "Christian" for as long as I could remember. One of my earliest memories was talking with my grandmother one night -- I must have been four or five -- and asking her about Jesus. As we talked she told me she had something called a prayer language, which gave her the ability to speak in tongues. I asked her if I could hear her speak that way, and she did. Then I asked her how I could have one too. She told me that you receive a prayer language when receive the holy spirit, and that you receive the holy spirit when you asked Jesus into you heart. So like a good little girl, I asked Jesus into my heart and waited for my prayer language. Nothing happened. I went back and asked my grandmother what happens if you don't ever receive the holy spirit and she told me that you go to hell. She then proceeded to describe, in vivid detail, what hell was like.
I was haunted by the thought that I would go to hell for years. I felt that I was somehow inadequate -- that I had been born "not good enough" for God and that I was destined for hell. This was compounded by the fact that everyone else in my family had visions, saw angels, prophesied, etc. As if to validate my fears, I came across a bible verse in one of the bible studies I went to that stated something to the effect of "you were chosen by God before the beginning of time." Well, conversely one could assume that God deliberately did NOT choose some people before the beginning of time, therefore effectively destining them for hell.
That really bothered me, as this idea was in direct conflict with the doctrine of "God is love." Then of course there was the usual high school drama of Christian kids always being the partying, promiscuous, popular crowd and shunning me for the most part. (I was an army brat so I grew up the perpetual new kid.) At one point I went on a youth group retreat and when I got back the pastor from the church called a meeting with my parents to tell them I had been having sex during the retreat, when I was still a virgin. Apparently some of the other kids had made it up.
So yea, I became pretty angry and resentful toward Christianity. I felt hurt and betrayed by its God and its savior, who appeared two-faced and hypocritical, both from my perception of church doctrine and in their character as reflected by their followers. I considered quietly leaving the faith all together, but then I really began to think about it.
The truth is, people aren't perfect, and certainly a collective religious group is going to have its flaws magnified in accordance with its size. Christians are by no means a good reflection of who Christ was, and this became clearer and clearer to me the more I actually read the bible and literature on Christianity itself. Jesus himself was probably one of the "best" humans who ever walked the planet -- in every sense of the word. He underwent a horrific ordeal in order to help his fellow man, and no matter how you read the bible or whatever theories you subscribe to, this is basically at the heart of the story. Down the ages, his teachings and his example have been horribly twisted, diluted, and taken out of context to suit the needs of an increasingly bureaucratic and hierarchical church, so that today, far from drawing people to Jesus, Christians are essentially driving people away from organized religion.
I believe it was Mahatma Gandhi who said "I like your Christ, I just don't like your Christians." I understand the pain and frustration that many of the people who confidently label themselves "followers of Christ" cause every day, whether they know it or not. But before you leave Christianity completely, I encourage you to look at the Bible for yourself. Forget anything you've been taught about it or anything you've learned through experience and look at it without bias. And, though this might seem heretical, keep in mind that the new testament itself is not perfect -- it has been written and rewritten for thousands of years. However, at its heart I'm confident you'll see a man and his God who are still reaching out thousands of years later with a message of love for you personally.
I was a "Christian" for as long as I could remember. One of my earliest memories was talking with my grandmother one night -- I must have been four or five -- and asking her about Jesus. As we talked she told me she had something called a prayer language, which gave her the ability to speak in tongues. I asked her if I could hear her speak that way, and she did. Then I asked her how I could have one too. She told me that you receive a prayer language when receive the holy spirit, and that you receive the holy spirit when you asked Jesus into you heart. So like a good little girl, I asked Jesus into my heart and waited for my prayer language. Nothing happened. I went back and asked my grandmother what happens if you don't ever receive the holy spirit and she told me that you go to hell. She then proceeded to describe, in vivid detail, what hell was like.
I was haunted by the thought that I would go to hell for years. I felt that I was somehow inadequate -- that I had been born "not good enough" for God and that I was destined for hell. This was compounded by the fact that everyone else in my family had visions, saw angels, prophesied, etc. As if to validate my fears, I came across a bible verse in one of the bible studies I went to that stated something to the effect of "you were chosen by God before the beginning of time." Well, conversely one could assume that God deliberately did NOT choose some people before the beginning of time, therefore effectively destining them for hell.
That really bothered me, as this idea was in direct conflict with the doctrine of "God is love." Then of course there was the usual high school drama of Christian kids always being the partying, promiscuous, popular crowd and shunning me for the most part. (I was an army brat so I grew up the perpetual new kid.) At one point I went on a youth group retreat and when I got back the pastor from the church called a meeting with my parents to tell them I had been having sex during the retreat, when I was still a virgin. Apparently some of the other kids had made it up.
So yea, I became pretty angry and resentful toward Christianity. I felt hurt and betrayed by its God and its savior, who appeared two-faced and hypocritical, both from my perception of church doctrine and in their character as reflected by their followers. I considered quietly leaving the faith all together, but then I really began to think about it.
The truth is, people aren't perfect, and certainly a collective religious group is going to have its flaws magnified in accordance with its size. Christians are by no means a good reflection of who Christ was, and this became clearer and clearer to me the more I actually read the bible and literature on Christianity itself. Jesus himself was probably one of the "best" humans who ever walked the planet -- in every sense of the word. He underwent a horrific ordeal in order to help his fellow man, and no matter how you read the bible or whatever theories you subscribe to, this is basically at the heart of the story. Down the ages, his teachings and his example have been horribly twisted, diluted, and taken out of context to suit the needs of an increasingly bureaucratic and hierarchical church, so that today, far from drawing people to Jesus, Christians are essentially driving people away from organized religion.
I believe it was Mahatma Gandhi who said "I like your Christ, I just don't like your Christians." I understand the pain and frustration that many of the people who confidently label themselves "followers of Christ" cause every day, whether they know it or not. But before you leave Christianity completely, I encourage you to look at the Bible for yourself. Forget anything you've been taught about it or anything you've learned through experience and look at it without bias. And, though this might seem heretical, keep in mind that the new testament itself is not perfect -- it has been written and rewritten for thousands of years. However, at its heart I'm confident you'll see a man and his God who are still reaching out thousands of years later with a message of love for you personally.
please dont listen to satan
dear sir/ma'am; i read with sadness[but i had to eventually laugh]; as i read the quiz. you try to debunk christianity, but you're all wrong. every word of The Bible is true. when a certain author[like mark, luke, etc], seem to contradict the other; they are not; its simply their personality in their writing, their account that The Lord allowed them to see[like simon carried jesus's cross most of the way; but christ the final part; and so forth]. please dont listen to satan and depart from christ. jesus is the answer, and every word is completely true. thank you for reading this, my love and prayers are with you all to change to faith in christ, and honor of his word. ken lott, rev. columbus ga.
Email:kenlott2002@yahoo.com
Email:kenlott2002@yahoo.com
I love Jesus and Jesus loves me, so I've been told
Saying those words, Jesus love me, what do they mean? It means everything to some that choose to believe. But in all reality it means you're replacing a character whom you've been told is very admirable, for the love that you never received as a child by your own father. If you do not believe it, examine your past life, how many times have you been told by your biological father that he loves you or showed genuine affection towards you? Be truthful now, how many times as opposed to how many times your mother told you that she loves you and cares for you?
This lack of love and affection from the father is simply the main cause of religious fanaticism. Saying Jesus loves me or God loves me, gives one a false hope that some day the love and attention that has been missing in your life from your father will some day be replaced and fulfilled by Jesus and God the father as promised and written by men over 2000 years ago in the Bible, and in some cases, if not all cases, the lack of love and affection shown to the wife from the husband, being that the husband's role of replacing the father.
People have been told that the belief in a mythological Jesus and God figure can and will someday fulfill that role of missing love and affection. This they vehemently pray.
To say, I love Jesus and Jesus loves me, gives one in their mind a temporary placebo calming effect as to being loved by someone very important, but who better to be loved by than a figure out of the ancient book so futantly cherished by so many, called the Holy Bible.
Because we've been told and repeated the Bible stories by our parents and were told as were pure fact, and we were told the Biblical events really did happen, without a shred of proof, or evidence, we never asked for proof, we believed our parents or fully trusted whomever told the stories to us since early childhood, but surely our parents would not intentionally and willingly lie to us or mislead us, but they did! Not intentionally! But not knowing themselves that they were lied to also, by their parents.
This is the reason so many adults and Christians resent and reject being told and proven that their religion and Christian beliefs are wrong, it goes against childhood indoctrination and would also make their parents bold face liars, unfortunately this cause and effect is wide spread all across the world, why do you think there so much fighting and killing and war, especially in the middle-east and in homes and in families?
Religions and religious beliefs separate us as human beings on this planet. The Christians resent being shown that the Bible is false, so much that they put Atheists and non-believers in the same class as communists, which clearly shows how childish and how afraid they are to see their beliefs and the Great Holy Bible as being false, people would rather support a needless war and kill innocent people, than admit and see that a belief is just a placebo to comfort them from the fear that the lie they were told by their parents is just that, a flat out lie!
The Bible says "Thou Shalt Not Kill" what good is it, saying that?
Thou Shall Not Murder! But we do! As a Nation, as a Country! We support Israel, where do you think they get their weapons? We support a country that rejects the belief in Jesus and his teachings how frigging stupid is that? Apparently no one in the USA really believes in Jesus or what he supposedly taught either, just with their mouths, as he supposedly said they would.
The power of childhood indoctrination is so powerful that you can control huge masses of people, why else would so many young men and women be so willing to jump aboard a ship or plane and go to another country and fight and kill innocent people, and children, even if by accident, if they had not been indoctrinated at such an early age that they were fulfilling a great cause, The will of God and Jesus! And God will sort out the righteous and judge the aggressors, yeah right! NP!
Ben
This lack of love and affection from the father is simply the main cause of religious fanaticism. Saying Jesus loves me or God loves me, gives one a false hope that some day the love and attention that has been missing in your life from your father will some day be replaced and fulfilled by Jesus and God the father as promised and written by men over 2000 years ago in the Bible, and in some cases, if not all cases, the lack of love and affection shown to the wife from the husband, being that the husband's role of replacing the father.
People have been told that the belief in a mythological Jesus and God figure can and will someday fulfill that role of missing love and affection. This they vehemently pray.
To say, I love Jesus and Jesus loves me, gives one in their mind a temporary placebo calming effect as to being loved by someone very important, but who better to be loved by than a figure out of the ancient book so futantly cherished by so many, called the Holy Bible.
Because we've been told and repeated the Bible stories by our parents and were told as were pure fact, and we were told the Biblical events really did happen, without a shred of proof, or evidence, we never asked for proof, we believed our parents or fully trusted whomever told the stories to us since early childhood, but surely our parents would not intentionally and willingly lie to us or mislead us, but they did! Not intentionally! But not knowing themselves that they were lied to also, by their parents.
This is the reason so many adults and Christians resent and reject being told and proven that their religion and Christian beliefs are wrong, it goes against childhood indoctrination and would also make their parents bold face liars, unfortunately this cause and effect is wide spread all across the world, why do you think there so much fighting and killing and war, especially in the middle-east and in homes and in families?
Religions and religious beliefs separate us as human beings on this planet. The Christians resent being shown that the Bible is false, so much that they put Atheists and non-believers in the same class as communists, which clearly shows how childish and how afraid they are to see their beliefs and the Great Holy Bible as being false, people would rather support a needless war and kill innocent people, than admit and see that a belief is just a placebo to comfort them from the fear that the lie they were told by their parents is just that, a flat out lie!
The Bible says "Thou Shalt Not Kill" what good is it, saying that?
Thou Shall Not Murder! But we do! As a Nation, as a Country! We support Israel, where do you think they get their weapons? We support a country that rejects the belief in Jesus and his teachings how frigging stupid is that? Apparently no one in the USA really believes in Jesus or what he supposedly taught either, just with their mouths, as he supposedly said they would.
The power of childhood indoctrination is so powerful that you can control huge masses of people, why else would so many young men and women be so willing to jump aboard a ship or plane and go to another country and fight and kill innocent people, and children, even if by accident, if they had not been indoctrinated at such an early age that they were fulfilling a great cause, The will of God and Jesus! And God will sort out the righteous and judge the aggressors, yeah right! NP!
Ben
a Born Atheist
I have just stumbled onto this site - praise the lord! - and am jumping right in before I go back and read any more testimonials. Christianity is making me sick, literally. I was born into atheism, so I already have a foundation of non-religiosity, and I am finding my christian friends' attempts to convert/preach to me and so on make me queasy and extraordinarilly uncomfortable. Having never "believed" in anything other than reality I did not have any lights going off or personal "aha's!", so their prostelytizing puts me at a disadvantage. They're so sure! And I'm so mellow! And they're intelligent, loving beings! I sought this site out because I feel so alone when Christians come after me. "Naomi, do you follow your lord?" and when I aver to avoid an argument, especially with my deeply devout Caribbean friend, she laughs and says, "that's not a direct answer!" Which leaves me with nothing to say! Arguing with a Christian is like holding a mossy rock in a stream! If anyone has suggestions I would truely welcome them.
Also, I spent some time with her in Trinidad, and from Friday night through Sunday morning I was treated to an onslaught of the most nauseating videos of those glossy highly produced country-western gospel sing-fests - and in the morning, a children's tape of happy jesus songs for my little girl. I couldn't escape, and lay in bed hoping and praying that she'd turn off the tube. I certainly didn't want to intrude on her ritual in her own home.
Wanted to add that with all that religious stuff pouring into my ear, I began to hear clearly what they tell kids: you must PRACTICE your faith! Faith is "like a muscle". In other words, you gotta do it or lose it. Funny, isn't it? Gotta keep building up your blindness, keep working at believing in the ridiculous, because if you let go, the nonsense just can't hold up!
Why do you have to work so hard if it's so clear?
Naomi
jasminedancer AT optonline DOT net
Also, I spent some time with her in Trinidad, and from Friday night through Sunday morning I was treated to an onslaught of the most nauseating videos of those glossy highly produced country-western gospel sing-fests - and in the morning, a children's tape of happy jesus songs for my little girl. I couldn't escape, and lay in bed hoping and praying that she'd turn off the tube. I certainly didn't want to intrude on her ritual in her own home.
Wanted to add that with all that religious stuff pouring into my ear, I began to hear clearly what they tell kids: you must PRACTICE your faith! Faith is "like a muscle". In other words, you gotta do it or lose it. Funny, isn't it? Gotta keep building up your blindness, keep working at believing in the ridiculous, because if you let go, the nonsense just can't hold up!
Why do you have to work so hard if it's so clear?
Naomi
jasminedancer AT optonline DOT net
I found the answers
Wow! your theological journey is almost identical to mine. Only, I found the answers to many of the questions you posed. I too seem to know more about the Bible and what it teaches than almost every preacher I have ever met. Anf that was before I became a minister. And I too found it hard to find anyone who got it. Why did I get it and they could not? Because of John Darby like you already figured out. Anyway, the only reason I cannot lose faith is that I know the supernatural is real because I am the son of a real witch. Spirits are real no matter what James Randi might claim.
Check out my web sites and get back to me.
P.S. I grew up in Geneva and just recently came back from a trip to Ashtabula. Small world.
www.soulspirit.zoomshare.com www.paranormalpreacher.zoomshare.com
Email:darrell4ccc@hotmail.com
The Paranormal Preacher
Check out my web sites and get back to me.
P.S. I grew up in Geneva and just recently came back from a trip to Ashtabula. Small world.
www.soulspirit.zoomshare.com www.paranormalpreacher.zoomshare.com
Email:darrell4ccc@hotmail.com
The Paranormal Preacher
You are playing Russian Roulette with Eternity
If you are right then you go to nothing. If I am right then you go to Heaven or HELL. You are playing Russian Roulette with Eternity. God will not allow your blasephemy to continue. Something will happen. Maybe you have already been judged and will not be allow to repent. This is the ultimate judgement to be cast on the sandbar of eternity without a means of repentance. I hope this has not happened to you. It may not be too late. Please repent and discontinue this rubbish. You may be granted mercy for your soul and grace in time of need. To be a rebrobate is to have a mind without GOD. It is apparent by you site that you are Rebrobate and possibly without hope. I am warning you with Love, so that your blood is not on my hands. Kill the site and live.
Tim Wilson
email:wilson@mail.com
Tim Wilson
email:wilson@mail.com
Waiting For Judgement....
I hope the Webmaster won't mind posting this. I just want to let everyone know that I am about to pay what is called in Judaism a "shiva call". This is like going to a wake for lack of a better explanation, although as is befitting the damn morose religion of Judaism it gets dressed up some. I have old ex-friends there some of home are wannabe Zionists (a lot of American Jews are wannabe Zionists, because they don't understand Zionism, they don't understand that right wingers and nationalist Jews in Israel will cheerfully break your arms for you if you go to the wrong neighborhood and say the wrong things. It's like American Irish folks giving money to the IRA without really understanding the full nature of what they are doing and what it means and where that money goes).
On the one hand, I want to do this. The person who died was someone I always had good memories of (a friends father) and the friend is someone I want to touch base with and check in with, because it's important that people do that from time to time.
But I guarantee, as sure as god made green grass, that one or two people there, people with no sense of social appropriateness (after all, this is a shiva call, not a debate. Somebody has died here.) are going to try to start an argument and call me a "self-loathing Jew" (whatever that means). If it were me, I would just be polite to whoever showed up, and put politics and religion and all that aside out of respect.
But religionists don't do that. Who was it, who, in response to a comment some stupid fundy made to Ian's anger post, he said, "Dear God, Ian, they're *relentless*!" You think Christian fundys are relentless. Jewish fundamentalists are the worst. After all, we are the chosen people.
Anyway. Just had to get that off my chest. Because I don't mind the service at all. It's what this persons son, my friend wants, and it's what this person would have wanted, and it's what I'll do for my Father and Mother when they are gone. It just doesn't have much intrinsic or spiritual meaning for me. What does have intrinsic, spiritual meaning for me is sitting and talking about this man, and how he affected my life, and how he never had a bad word for anyone, and how he struggled with tremendous pain and diffiiculty and never took it out on anyone and never held a grudge. He was a good man, an honest man, and talking about that and going over it, that is spiritual for me. And it's going to piss me off when the religionists of the bunch get on me about the quality of my nonexistent Judaism.
Anyway,
Dave Berlin
Hard Atheist, learning about science and logic etc.
At some point a man makes certain logical leaps: God never answers my prayers, I never see him, he doesn't help with anything and the kicker, it doesn't seem to matter whether there is religion or not. It's extraneous to life.
On the one hand, I want to do this. The person who died was someone I always had good memories of (a friends father) and the friend is someone I want to touch base with and check in with, because it's important that people do that from time to time.
But I guarantee, as sure as god made green grass, that one or two people there, people with no sense of social appropriateness (after all, this is a shiva call, not a debate. Somebody has died here.) are going to try to start an argument and call me a "self-loathing Jew" (whatever that means). If it were me, I would just be polite to whoever showed up, and put politics and religion and all that aside out of respect.
But religionists don't do that. Who was it, who, in response to a comment some stupid fundy made to Ian's anger post, he said, "Dear God, Ian, they're *relentless*!" You think Christian fundys are relentless. Jewish fundamentalists are the worst. After all, we are the chosen people.
Anyway. Just had to get that off my chest. Because I don't mind the service at all. It's what this persons son, my friend wants, and it's what this person would have wanted, and it's what I'll do for my Father and Mother when they are gone. It just doesn't have much intrinsic or spiritual meaning for me. What does have intrinsic, spiritual meaning for me is sitting and talking about this man, and how he affected my life, and how he never had a bad word for anyone, and how he struggled with tremendous pain and diffiiculty and never took it out on anyone and never held a grudge. He was a good man, an honest man, and talking about that and going over it, that is spiritual for me. And it's going to piss me off when the religionists of the bunch get on me about the quality of my nonexistent Judaism.
Anyway,
Dave Berlin
Hard Atheist, learning about science and logic etc.
At some point a man makes certain logical leaps: God never answers my prayers, I never see him, he doesn't help with anything and the kicker, it doesn't seem to matter whether there is religion or not. It's extraneous to life.
Keep up the good work
from Marlene Winell
Greetings to all of you helping people recover from religious damage,
Keep up the good work. As a therapist working with clients in this area, I know that people need all the support they can get. (If you don't know me yet, I've attached a brief bio at the end of this letter.)
Now registering:
RELEASE AND RECLAIM II
An advanced weekend intensive for moving beyond religious indoctrination and reclaiming a life of joy, creativity, and connection. Led by Marlene Winell, Ph.D.
Letting go of your authoritarian religion can be exciting and liberating. At first there are frightening and painful feelings as the process of recovery begins. Then you feel stronger and you realize that you need some personal development to become the person you want to be. This workshop is designed to take you beyond basic healing and help you reconstruct your life in a way that is functional and allows full, confident expression of who you are.
The weekend is a powerful group experience of sharing deeply, exploring liberating concepts, and supporting each other in trying new things. In addition to discussion, we will use experiential methods including art, guided visualization, movement, and role-play. There will also be time for shared meals, relaxation, and fun. Because we are staying together, we will have the chance to get acquainted and begin a lasting support system beyond the weekend. As a special bonus, we will have massage treatments available.
WHEN: FRIDAY, July 28, 7PM until SUNDAY, July 30, 3PM.
WHERE: Berkeley, CA
The closest airport is OAKLAND, and we can help you find transportation from there. The setting is a large wonderful house with hot tub, fireplace, and other amenities.
REQUIREMENTS:
A deposit of $100 will secure a space.
Early registration discount: $20 (Full payment by July 15)
Workshop objectives are to help you:
You will receive more details, a registration form, and written exercises. You can also call 510-292-0509. Register soon to save a place. Group size is limited by design.
About Dr. Winell: Marlene Winell is a psychologist and Ph.D. in Human Development and Family Studies. She grew up in a fundamentalist missionary family, spent some years as a "born-again" Christian, and then went through her own recovery and growth process. She has worked in human services for 30 years and specializes in helping clients who are recovering from religious indoctrination. She is the author of Leaving the Fold: A Guide for Former Fundamentalists and Others Leaving Their Religion. Her private practice in Berkeley, CA. includes counseling individuals, couples, and groups. She also consults by telephone.
Website: www.marlenewinell.net
Tel. 510-292-0509
Greetings to all of you helping people recover from religious damage,
Keep up the good work. As a therapist working with clients in this area, I know that people need all the support they can get. (If you don't know me yet, I've attached a brief bio at the end of this letter.)
Now registering:
RELEASE AND RECLAIM II
An advanced weekend intensive for moving beyond religious indoctrination and reclaiming a life of joy, creativity, and connection. Led by Marlene Winell, Ph.D.
Letting go of your authoritarian religion can be exciting and liberating. At first there are frightening and painful feelings as the process of recovery begins. Then you feel stronger and you realize that you need some personal development to become the person you want to be. This workshop is designed to take you beyond basic healing and help you reconstruct your life in a way that is functional and allows full, confident expression of who you are.
The weekend is a powerful group experience of sharing deeply, exploring liberating concepts, and supporting each other in trying new things. In addition to discussion, we will use experiential methods including art, guided visualization, movement, and role-play. There will also be time for shared meals, relaxation, and fun. Because we are staying together, we will have the chance to get acquainted and begin a lasting support system beyond the weekend. As a special bonus, we will have massage treatments available.
WHEN: FRIDAY, July 28, 7PM until SUNDAY, July 30, 3PM.
WHERE: Berkeley, CA
The closest airport is OAKLAND, and we can help you find transportation from there. The setting is a large wonderful house with hot tub, fireplace, and other amenities.
REQUIREMENTS:
- Telephone discussion with Marlene Winell to determine appropriateness for you,
- completion of pre-workshop written exercises.
A deposit of $100 will secure a space.
Early registration discount: $20 (Full payment by July 15)
Workshop objectives are to help you:
- Deepen your capacity for self-love and self-care.
- Appreciate your unique identity and express it.
- Develop more trust in your own wisdom.
- Practice the art of "being here now" so you can notice and enjoy this life instead of waiting for the next.
- Increase joy and celebration of what is.
- Reclaim pleasure and sexuality.
- Explore ways to be engaged and connected—to other people & the world.
- Re-examine spirituality.
- Develop creativity.
You will receive more details, a registration form, and written exercises. You can also call 510-292-0509. Register soon to save a place. Group size is limited by design.
About Dr. Winell: Marlene Winell is a psychologist and Ph.D. in Human Development and Family Studies. She grew up in a fundamentalist missionary family, spent some years as a "born-again" Christian, and then went through her own recovery and growth process. She has worked in human services for 30 years and specializes in helping clients who are recovering from religious indoctrination. She is the author of Leaving the Fold: A Guide for Former Fundamentalists and Others Leaving Their Religion. Her private practice in Berkeley, CA. includes counseling individuals, couples, and groups. She also consults by telephone.
Website: www.marlenewinell.net
Tel. 510-292-0509
The Emperor's New Clothes
I feel so hurt and angry right now. I guess I could take just so much 'crap' from people during a time when I was down. My husband died unexpectedly when my children were only little.
Quite a number of christians who I knew would say things to me like "god is your husband' or 'god is a father to the fatherless'. It all sounded so 'good and right', but to me they were just empty words that meant nothing. Although I felt alot of guilt because I couldn't really understand what was said to me.
I would think to myself, well if god is supposed to be a father to the fatherless, where is he when the kids are off playing in a grand final (very important to them) and they wanted their dad there to cheer them from the sidelines as he would do. My cheering wasn't quite the same. Or where is he when they are sick, and they wanted their dad. My oldest daughter who was just 11 years old when her dad died was a real 'daddy's girl'. My kids missed their dad terribly, and still do.
One woman who ran the christian singles group at the church where I used to go said to me that she felt very angry when people grieved over the loss of a parent, because, she said, that god was the father, and it was an insult to him to grieve for a lost parent.
Some of my christian friends couldn't understand why I just didn't 'get it' - that is the whole god concept - that I seemed to be lacking because I just couldn't 'see' what they could see. I used to think I was like the little kid in the storybook "The Emperor's New Clothes" - when he called out from the crowd that the emperor had no clothes on - when everyone else was saying how splended he looked. Thing is I just couldn't say I could believe something when I didn't.
So, right now my favourite word is 'crap' for all the sermons and advice I was given when I went to church. Excuse my misuse of the english language, but 'crap' seems to cover everything quite nicely. And I feel much better for actually saying what I mean anyway.
Thank you
cl
Quite a number of christians who I knew would say things to me like "god is your husband' or 'god is a father to the fatherless'. It all sounded so 'good and right', but to me they were just empty words that meant nothing. Although I felt alot of guilt because I couldn't really understand what was said to me.
I would think to myself, well if god is supposed to be a father to the fatherless, where is he when the kids are off playing in a grand final (very important to them) and they wanted their dad there to cheer them from the sidelines as he would do. My cheering wasn't quite the same. Or where is he when they are sick, and they wanted their dad. My oldest daughter who was just 11 years old when her dad died was a real 'daddy's girl'. My kids missed their dad terribly, and still do.
One woman who ran the christian singles group at the church where I used to go said to me that she felt very angry when people grieved over the loss of a parent, because, she said, that god was the father, and it was an insult to him to grieve for a lost parent.
Some of my christian friends couldn't understand why I just didn't 'get it' - that is the whole god concept - that I seemed to be lacking because I just couldn't 'see' what they could see. I used to think I was like the little kid in the storybook "The Emperor's New Clothes" - when he called out from the crowd that the emperor had no clothes on - when everyone else was saying how splended he looked. Thing is I just couldn't say I could believe something when I didn't.
So, right now my favourite word is 'crap' for all the sermons and advice I was given when I went to church. Excuse my misuse of the english language, but 'crap' seems to cover everything quite nicely. And I feel much better for actually saying what I mean anyway.
Thank you
cl
Hello~!
First of all, I'd like to give thanks to you for your trouble to run this site.
I'm a Korean woman who're very interested in the Christianity.
In Korea, we have 10 million of Christians, and some of them are very weird and lunatic.
They even demonstrated while the World Cup period, because our soccer supporters' name is "Red Devil".
I do hate them because they always threat about "hell".
Anyway...I have a question to the Christians.
Did all the people of Old Testament go to hell?
(None of them believed Jesus Christ as their Savior.)
Even Moses, Isayah, Solomon, king David, etc?
You guys say, only through Jesus Christ people can go to heaven.
And, before the Christ, the poor people have all gone to hell, right? (This is what I've heard from ministers.)
I think Christianity is a very funny religion.
(Or a Myth?)
It's a pleasure for me to read those people who have the same thought.
Have a good weekend~!
Jennifer Lee
I'm a Korean woman who're very interested in the Christianity.
In Korea, we have 10 million of Christians, and some of them are very weird and lunatic.
They even demonstrated while the World Cup period, because our soccer supporters' name is "Red Devil".
I do hate them because they always threat about "hell".
Anyway...I have a question to the Christians.
Did all the people of Old Testament go to hell?
(None of them believed Jesus Christ as their Savior.)
Even Moses, Isayah, Solomon, king David, etc?
You guys say, only through Jesus Christ people can go to heaven.
And, before the Christ, the poor people have all gone to hell, right? (This is what I've heard from ministers.)
I think Christianity is a very funny religion.
(Or a Myth?)
It's a pleasure for me to read those people who have the same thought.
Have a good weekend~!
Jennifer Lee
Feeling lonely
Hi Every One,
Very interesting site and I have been here quite a few times. It is a relief actually to find it.
I am still caught in the web of Christianity, but am convinced it to be untrue. I just wanted to call out really, to some people that understand. I feel a gulf has opened between me and the people I dearly love and don't want to lose- but I can't connect. It's like they live in a parallell universe.
And yet the "world" doesn't understand either - so here I am popular in both worlds, successful, but alone.
What do I do? Big bang, public announcement, or go along with the flow? Could the "right" thing be to live out my days a lie - to protect the hearts of my dearest friends and relatives? I have learnt to be a good actor in the last ten years after all....
Any way no point to make, no axe to grind, but just wanting some empathy and advice.
From Lonely
Very interesting site and I have been here quite a few times. It is a relief actually to find it.
I am still caught in the web of Christianity, but am convinced it to be untrue. I just wanted to call out really, to some people that understand. I feel a gulf has opened between me and the people I dearly love and don't want to lose- but I can't connect. It's like they live in a parallell universe.
And yet the "world" doesn't understand either - so here I am popular in both worlds, successful, but alone.
What do I do? Big bang, public announcement, or go along with the flow? Could the "right" thing be to live out my days a lie - to protect the hearts of my dearest friends and relatives? I have learnt to be a good actor in the last ten years after all....
Any way no point to make, no axe to grind, but just wanting some empathy and advice.
From Lonely
MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM
Thank you so much for the chance of adressing you.
My name is Paul and I've been viewing your website for about six years and your format is very impressive. I will be upfront with you I am a follower of Jesus Christ and I have belonged to Him for the last ten years.
I've read a lot of your articles and the many different comments of those post here. Of course we are both at odds with each other theologically, however I do respect your sincerity and your logical way of thinking. I will not aproach you and your fellow Exchrists as some Christians do.
I won't blast in here saying "I will pray for all of you" if I do happen to pray for any of you I don't need to tell you that. From reading your writings I see you do understand the essentials of Biblical Chriistianity. The problems I do have with the site is that a lot of the testimonies and the posts seem more emotionilly driven then analytically.
I do blame moderm churches for giving wrong views of following Jesus. Many say "try Jesus" and He'll give you a happy life, a fulfilled marraige, a good job and other empty promisies. I am not saying your testimony, but must of the ones I read are people looking for self fulfilling lives in Jesus, and He never promised this. He said to deny your whole life, take up your cross(be willing to die) and follow Him. I would rather they all say this is not for them instead of using these things to say God isn't real.
Then when some try to act logical they bring up things like "look at all the killing in the Old testiment" but all that proves is that one disagrees with God's actions, but you can't use that to say God dose not exist. Using examples like the spanish inqusitions, the crusades and the holocaust to prove Christianity isn't true is kind of pointless, because it depends on the angle you are looking at from. When I view these events I see the evil of the Roman Catholic church and I remember the Apostle Peter said about false teachers "through them the Way of Truth shall be evil spoken of." What also bothers me is that the posters act as if there no good and rational counter arguments to their views, and acting as though only a complete idiot would follow Christ.
I just want you to know that none of this is out of anger, I used to be an athiest and a lot of my present friends are athiests. I can assure you that my conversion to Christ was not emotional, but years of probing through all the world's religions, world views and philosophies and of course God's sovreign grace.
I encourge all my christian friend to read your site and understand how an exchristian thinks, though I don't think there is such a thing as an exchristian, I believe everyone on this site is sincere and was very close to the things of Chist, but it's those who endure to the end that are true christians, as hebrews 10:38-39 says "NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH: BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK, MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM. BUT WE ARE NOT OF THEM WHO DRAW BACK UNTO PERDITION: BUT OF THEM THAT BELIEVE TO THE SAVING OF THE SOUL." I would like to hear from you on these things and I thank you for your time.
My name is Paul and I've been viewing your website for about six years and your format is very impressive. I will be upfront with you I am a follower of Jesus Christ and I have belonged to Him for the last ten years.
I've read a lot of your articles and the many different comments of those post here. Of course we are both at odds with each other theologically, however I do respect your sincerity and your logical way of thinking. I will not aproach you and your fellow Exchrists as some Christians do.
I won't blast in here saying "I will pray for all of you" if I do happen to pray for any of you I don't need to tell you that. From reading your writings I see you do understand the essentials of Biblical Chriistianity. The problems I do have with the site is that a lot of the testimonies and the posts seem more emotionilly driven then analytically.
I do blame moderm churches for giving wrong views of following Jesus. Many say "try Jesus" and He'll give you a happy life, a fulfilled marraige, a good job and other empty promisies. I am not saying your testimony, but must of the ones I read are people looking for self fulfilling lives in Jesus, and He never promised this. He said to deny your whole life, take up your cross(be willing to die) and follow Him. I would rather they all say this is not for them instead of using these things to say God isn't real.
Then when some try to act logical they bring up things like "look at all the killing in the Old testiment" but all that proves is that one disagrees with God's actions, but you can't use that to say God dose not exist. Using examples like the spanish inqusitions, the crusades and the holocaust to prove Christianity isn't true is kind of pointless, because it depends on the angle you are looking at from. When I view these events I see the evil of the Roman Catholic church and I remember the Apostle Peter said about false teachers "through them the Way of Truth shall be evil spoken of." What also bothers me is that the posters act as if there no good and rational counter arguments to their views, and acting as though only a complete idiot would follow Christ.
I just want you to know that none of this is out of anger, I used to be an athiest and a lot of my present friends are athiests. I can assure you that my conversion to Christ was not emotional, but years of probing through all the world's religions, world views and philosophies and of course God's sovreign grace.
I encourge all my christian friend to read your site and understand how an exchristian thinks, though I don't think there is such a thing as an exchristian, I believe everyone on this site is sincere and was very close to the things of Chist, but it's those who endure to the end that are true christians, as hebrews 10:38-39 says "NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH: BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK, MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM. BUT WE ARE NOT OF THEM WHO DRAW BACK UNTO PERDITION: BUT OF THEM THAT BELIEVE TO THE SAVING OF THE SOUL." I would like to hear from you on these things and I thank you for your time.
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