Satan is blinding you to the truth

A letter from D. O'Hara

The fact that misguided people such as yourselves are "dogging" Christianity proves the truth of the Bible. It is always curious to me why Christianity is the subject of intense and frankly often misguided scrutiny when other false religions get a pass.

For example, it's OK to say Christianity and the BIble are a bunch of #*&%^& but what about Mormonism or Islam or Buddhism. This fact confirms that the children of Satan aren't interested in the truth.

Let's take evolution, for example. I have often thought why something as complex as the earth, the human cell, or the universe just evolved from chance but human "creations" like the discovery of the atom, or a rap song, or your homework don't "evolve." I haven't ever seen a bicycle evolve into a car or even a Toyota into a BMW.

Hmmm. It seems like the true reason for evolution is that lovers of falsehood such as you young misguided folks are too lazy to truly study and apply the full truth of the BIble instead of using it as an excuse for your rebellion.

Also, Christians in Muslim countries are treated like garbage and in most Christian or professing countries Muslims are allowed freedom of worship.

Satan is blinding you to the truth because the Bible says, "the gospel is veiled to those who are perishing." God makes the rules folks. If you don't like it, too bad!!! However, it seems like if one of you made the rules for the universe things would be pretty twisted.


A bible verse you may find interesting...."For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now retrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one (the Antichrist) will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of HIs coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish (that would be presumably you folks unless you repent), because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie ( By golly, you folks are in the Bible.), that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unirighteousness.

So there is my anti- anti-Christian testimony. I hope you all like it.

And by the way spare me the lecture about inclusion or tolerance or something stupid like that because you folks and those like you are often quite intolerant. This website for example. You and those like you have twisted the meaning of tolerance so it's hardly worth talking to you.

God has held His hand out for thousands of years but the time of His wrath is coming, if it hasn't started already. So here's one final verse, "The thief (Satan) comes only to steal, and kill, and destroy but I (Jesus Christ) have come that they might have life and have it more abundantly."


This site is full of hate.

You people are to be pitied. May God contend with your rebellious attitude and nonsensical reasoning. Geneis 12:3.

The fact that you folks twist something true, simple and beautifl into something hateful shows how misguided and twisted you are.

By the way, I am a member of a Roman Catholic Church.

Once again, God makes the rules and He laughs at rebels like you (Psalm 2).

Have a nice day

97 comments:

Pag said...

Mormonism, Islam and Buddhism are a bunch of #*&%^&, too.

Just sayin'.

Roger O'Donnell said...

Pag,

I kinda like Zen...

Otherwise, mostly they're all a crock designed for crowd control of the weak minded... rather like the first poster on here, who seems to think that Satan is a real entity. The eugenicist in me hopes that he hasn't had children (for the record, I don't pass my own genetic 'purity laws' to breed) Last thing we need is a bunch of little devil haunted zealots strutting their jackbooted morality across the planet. It would seem Roman Catholicism also robs one of coherency... how sad.

Love

Grandpa...

Anonymous said...

As a "child of Satan," I would like to remind you that this site is for EX-CHRISTIANS, not ex-muslims, ex-buddhists, or anything else. I personally do not mind people practicing a religion that does not condemn people to hell, advocate killing non-believers, or otherwise infringing on anyone's human rights. Unfortunately that cuts out the big religions. To my knowledge, buddhism (sp?) does not have any sort of "follow or die" edicts, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

You seem to take delight in letting us know the horrible fate we are in for. If that makes you happy, then more power to you. Rantings like yours from hysterical christians make us happy because it just further confirms that we did the right thing by leaving that cult. Thanks for the entertainment!

Roger O'Donnell said...

He can't help it... after all, the RCC has a long and noble tradtion of wishing ill on all sorts of people... Limbo for unbaptised babies, Hell for anyone who stands them being the one true apostolic church... He hates evangelists and fundies as much as he hates Atheists, since they're not RCs but filthy venal proddies (you can guarantee he had as much Haggard Schadenfreude as the rest of us... )

Still, an organisation who can vote in Voldemort I as Pope, the man who orchestrated the Child Abuse cover ups across the Catholic world is worth listening to... a bit like Hitler was worth listening to about Jews...

did that last bit come across as sarcastic? I do hope so...

Steven Bently said...

Yeah Satan (Praise His Holy Name)has set up a road block against us! We long for and beg and pray and pleade for Jesus to enter into our hearts, but Satan, our Lord has hardened our hearts.

Atheists yeah, we're all scum and smell like sewage and we have evil thoughts, and tell lies and curse God daily, we also want to kill God and Jesus, and prayer, we want to rebel and distance ourselves from God and Jesus.

We all kill babies and old people and defenseless animals and grind them up and sell them to the fast food restuarants for those 1/4 lb. burgers.

We all look forward to Hell so we can worship Satan our Lord and Savior and so we can shovel coal for eternity.


Dear kind sweet Jesus we humbly pray that you will enter our hearts and turn us into a Christian just like Bro. Ohara.

See nothing ever happens!

So it's true, Satan is in full control over Atheists, this proves the Bible is true!

All Hail Satan Our Lord!!! And his wonderful league of Holy Angels, whoms shoes we are not worthy to latch!

Satan is a liar, and we love liars, this proves that the Bible is true!!!

TastyPaper said...

Unworthy of more of a response than this.

boomSLANG said...

I haven't ever seen a bicycle evolve into a car or even a Toyota into a BMW. ~ D. O'Hara

This is how badly self-induced ignorance keeps people misinformed about what evolution actually means, in the 21 century.

BTW---I thought the Pope accepted evolution, saying that "it's more than just a theory". This was according to the Vatican Information Service. But then on the other hand, maybe it is actually "Satan" who wears the $ 25,000 Holy bath robe. BOO!

LOL!

Anonymous said...

Dogging Christianity?

Well if thats what you want to call it! I'm just sharing the truth about my christian experience on this EXCHRISTIAN website. Am I bitter? Hell yeah I am because I wasted ten years associating with frauds like yourself and following a fucking LIE! Anyways I gotta go. I want to read that new article that was just put on this website about another spirit filled christian pastor who just admitted to having sex with another teen girl.

Anonymous said...

Whenever a Christian can’t come up with a sound, logical defense of their faith, you can bet your bottom dollar they’ll smear anyone who disagrees with them by trotting out the “Satan” explanation. That mischievous fallen angel gets blamed for a lot he’s not responsible for, especially given that he’s a figment of the Christians’ imagination.

And surprise, surprise…when all else fails, toss in a verse from the bible. That will get us to re-evaluate our positions and make us see the error of our ways. Ex-Christians always fall for that ploy.

D. O’Hara, the bible is a man-made book, and that’s ALL it is. There’s no divine inspiration, except the delusion you attach to it. It’s simply a human concoction. Get over it!

Anonymous said...

"This site is full of hate."

Geez, D.O'hara, I could swear your article is full of hate. Here is a verse you may find interesting:

"You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye" Mathew 7:5.

Anonymous said...

this is a joke post right? I mean there is no logic to it whatsoever.... If it is not a joke I just feel sorry for the poster.

Onanite

Anonymous said...

I'm at work right now, but I'll strike while the iron is hot. (Forgive the grammatical errors.)

Evolution is not a chance theory. If an animal doesn't have the right equipment to survive, that animal will die. Those animals that have the proper traits will continue to grow and live and prosper because they will be the only ones left and those traits they carry will strengthen. And a lot of people say girraffes for example, but lets take humanity for example.

Africa has a very big problem with lion attacks on the plains. Africa's running team is so great because if those indigenous people couldn't run at higher speeds, those people die. The ones left are the people who run at faster speeds and have the muscle structures to withstand fatigue better. You don't just ask for something and it comes to you.

Like this, I would love to have gills so I could breath underwater, and I could ask God till I'm blue in the face for them, but he'll never give them to me. But why? Why won't he give me gills? I'm not trying to hurt anyone, I'm not trying to take anyone's livelihood. Plain and simple, you could say God doesn't like you or doesn't wanna give you gills. Or you could say more appropriately, God doesn't exist.

Also, how fair is it that you think that Christianity and ONLY Christianity is the way to go? Isn't there something in the bible about "The only Judge in this universe is He" or something along that lines? And Bikes don't evolve into BMW's because bike's aren't living creatures.

Matt.

Nvrgoingbk said...

D Ohara said: "The fact that misguided people such as yourselves are "dogging" Christianity proves the truth of the Bible."

So does the fact that Christians "dog" other religions make the religions they oppose true?

D Ohara said: "it's OK to say Christianity and the BIble are a bunch of #*&%^& but what about Mormonism or Islam or Buddhism. This fact confirms that the children of Satan aren't interested in the truth"

Oh, I promise you, Mr. or Mrs. Fundy, I am an equal opportunist when it comes to religions. I think they're all a bunch of "#*&%^&".

D Ohara said: "Also, Christians in Muslim countries are treated like garbage and in most Christian or professing countries Muslims are allowed freedom of worship."

Well, also, folks around the world are treated like garbage by you Christians, and we're not only talking about the Inquistions and Crusades here. Need I mention how many blind sheep are fleeced by your leaders every day? Who treats who like crap here? It seems that your own fellow worshippers take advantage of you more than any other religion ever could.

D Ohara said: "God makes the rules folks. If you don't like it, too bad!!! However, it seems like if one of you made the rules for the universe things would be pretty twisted."

So none of God's rules are twisted? Need I quote all of the preposterous laws God set forth in the old testament? Why is it exactly that a wife who is trying to defend her husband who is about to be murdered by grabbing the balls of his murderer to be killed? Why shouldn't she be praised for saving her husband's life? Why is it that women are "unclean" after having their menstral cycle when God made them that way? Why is it that we should stone to death our disobedient children? Why is it that the Israelites had to slaughter ALL of the inhabitants of other lands who didn't believe in their God? Why is it again that they had to even dash the babes upon the rocks? WHy is it again that Moses instructed the Israelites to keep alive for themselves all of the virgins of the other tribes? Get real D Ohara.

D Ohara said: "And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie ( By golly, you folks are in the Bible.), that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unirighteousness."

Uhm...so by righteousness, do you mean stuff like cheating, lying, fornication, adultery, pornography, pedophilia, fruad, etc.? You are soooo right. I mean, Christians are NEVER found guilty of such "unrighteousness". It's only us apostates who like to sin.

D Ohara said: "you folks and those like you are often quite intolerant. This website for example. You and those like you have twisted the meaning of tolerance so it's hardly worth talking to you."

Okay, seriously, this must be a joke right? WE are intolerant? I'd have to say that even with all of the murders and torturing and raping that has been inflicted upon "heretics", "apostates", and anyone who dared to disagree with your Catholic church aside, the very doctrine of Hell for anyone who does not think the same way as you is the epitamy of intolerance, wouldn't you say?

D Ohara said: "You people are to be pitied. May God contend with your rebellious attitude and nonsensical reasoning. Geneis 12:3."

It's so funny that you would quote from the book of Genesis after accusing us of nonsensical reasoning. This is the same book that tells us that the world was made in six literal days, that Eve was born of the rib of a man, that God had Noah get two of EVERY species of animal in the world on a boat, including penguins in Antarctica, kangaroos in Australia, and South American Rainforest tree frogs. This is the same book that tells us that Lot offered up his own daughters to be raped and killed, allowed his daughters to get him drunk and got his daughters pregnant from them raping him in an inebriated state. I can go on, but I'm sure you can see now just how confused you must have been when accusing anyone else of nonsensical reasoning.

D Ohara said: "The fact that you folks twist something true, simple and beautifl into something hateful shows how misguided and twisted you are."

True, simple and beautiful? Which parts are you talking about? The animal sacrifices, the human sacrifices,the stonings, the genocide, the incest, the confusing scriptures, the scientifically impossible claims, the contradictions...? If we are misguided it must be because we got the wrong translation. Lets see...should we read the King James, the NIV, the NASB, the Jehovah Witness version, the New King James...there's just so many to choose from; it's so confusing. Or ya know, we may be misguided because we chose the wrong denomination. It must be because we were all of the protestant persuation, that we just couldn't grasp the truth of your religion. If we'd only stayed another year, prayed another prayer, read a little longer, believed a little harder...What is "simple" about the Bible? The fact that Jesus and Paul can't even agree what it takes to be saved? What's simple about salvation?

D Ohara said: "By the way, I am a member of a Roman Catholic Church."

How sad. I'm so sorry for you.

georgespiggott said...

Just a guess, but I bet D. O'Hara was born into his religion, like most adherents to most religions. He probably didn't have a choice: as the Jesuits boasted, "Give me the child...."

Please correct me if I am wrong, D. O'Hara, and you really did make a mature decision to follow your Truth after a careful consideration of all the possible religions/philosophies.

Also: there doesn't seem to be much point in blaming Satan for hardening our hearts when it is God who has sent us "a strong delusion" that we should believe lies. Talk about copping the rough end of the pineapple!!!!

Anonymous said...

All religions are basically a crock, though Buddhism is more of a mindset than a religion in a lot of ways (except for the reincarnation nonsense).

Avie said...

As far as anti- anti-Christian tirades go, this one just wasn't that thought provoking or interesting. I ended up skimming through it because I kept falling asleep. Very boring.

Ian said...

You have got to be kidding me D. O'Hara. Satan is blinding me to the truth? Is it God's truth...or what you think is the truth, or your version of what the truth is?

About a year or two ago, your letter would have made me terrified, since I had just left the faith due to finding...something better! Nowadays when believers write your kind of writting (i.e., we're decieved by satan, we're satan's children, we've chosen to reject the truth, so on and so forth), it just makes me laugh and shake my head. It's actually funny in a way. A group of people in a tiny planet in an obscure corner of a galaxy so enormously big that it defies all comprehension...thinks they have the ONLY way and the ONLY truth that an omnipresent, all-knowing, all-loving God has given to people on this tiny planet in an infinitly huge universe that sie created just for humans on this tiny planet.

A few comments about your letter: Bycicles don't evolve because they're made out of metal, steel, and plastics. The design may change over the years, but physical, individual bycicles don't evolve into a car. That's silly!

Second, we're not all "too lazy". Chances are, we know more about the bible then you do. Are you aware that Jesus makes false prophecies and thus under old testamet law, is worthy of death? Are you aware that many of the prophecies that fortell his birth have nothing to do with him whatsoever? Or that traits in Jesus have been seen in other God-men throughout history such as virgin births, sons of god, dyring, resurrecting, etc. You can quote from the bible all you want. After all, most fundamentalists and casual believers simply pick and choose what pieces of scripture to believe in and use to back up thier own beliefs and ideas. you seem to be a follower of Jesus. Have you given up all your things and followed Jesus? Do you hate everyone who loves you? (you can't be a disciple of Jesus unless you do that).

You might not know that all of us here were once chrisitans at one time or another. Some of us for a few years, some of us for many, many, many years. And we all TRIED. We TRIED to strengthen our faith, we TRIED to make sense of things. I've been told that I never knew christ simply because I left the faith. How silly. I was a christian for four years and believed in Jesus with all my heart and soul. I believed that he was the only way to heaven, that the bible was true, etc. Yet, after looking around, reading, and using my brain, I left the faith. And it wasn't until after I left that I saw how much chrisitanity uses the tactics of FEAR. You're using them as well, threatening us with hell for not believing in your faith and your beliefs. Your kind have been tormenting people throughout the centuries.

You speak of intolerance? Look in the mirror. Your faith is a prime example of intolerance. Anyone who does not believe in what you believe is damned. Anyone who uses thier own minds outside the faith is damned. Anyone who, on rationality and the use of logic and reason don't accept Jesus as a supernatural son of God is...suprisingly...damned. It's really quite simple. If you're not in our church, the (insert various denomination here), you're damned! You're with us or you're against us. There's no middle ground. Is that tolerance? I don't think so.

This site may be full of hate, but so is the bible and fundamentalist christianity. The god of the bible is a monster when you look at all of what he does and says. he's worse then all the dictators of history put together, and that's a real shame. Darth Vader is a fluffy bunny rabbit compared to him.

Jesus came to give life abundantly? Don't forget that he came to tear families apart and set loved ones against each other. And that he damns everyone who doesn't believe in what he says. Not a very nice fellow, this idol-jesus.

It's also quite interesting how God laughs at us. I have a few questions:

1. If God loves us unconditionally and is all-merciful, all-forgiving...then why is he laughing (presumably in an evil, super-villian type laugh) at us, his beloved children? Sounds like...a supervillian to me.

2. Is God actually laughing with merriment because we've found the truth while everyone else is walking around with pitch black sunglasses over thier eyes?

Lighten up. We're all brothers and sisters. Why would you want to run around condemning your sister and your brother for not believeing in what you believe? Don't you think our father has enough love for all his children? I would think daddy would actually be dissapointed in one of his children who runs around condemning and insulting his siblings for not believing in what he believes.

Ian said...

"The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish (that would be presumably you folks unless you repent), because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie ( By golly, you folks are in the Bible.), that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unirighteousness."


I also want to point out that it's interesting how God, who loves all his children unconditionally, will intentionally misled his children so that he can punish them with eternal damnation. If God were a man...we'd lynch him for being so cruel.

Anonymous said...

To DOH (what a fitting acronym):

So, good job.

At least if you wanted to provide more evidence for the claim that you morontheists are all willfully braindead nutcases. Every single one of your claims has been sliced, diced, burned, pissed on, buried, and... oh yeah... soundly refuted a thousand times on this very website alone. Your crappy post proves that you have no (active) brain but only react to keywords, with the intellectual capacities of an amoeba. And the really sad thing is that you (in all likelihood that is) weren't born that way (then it wouldn't be your fault...) but chose to be idiots.
Well, if you want to live your lifes as morons, go ahead. But you try and force your idiocy on others, you better expect resistance from us who still use our brains.

Anonymous said...

D. O'hara: No one hated you enough to censor your text – it was posted with all others. However, you are, obviously, free to express your feelings, hatred, umbrage, venom or whatever. I think this site deserves credit for this, don't you?

Many here are, or have been, earnest truth-seekers and have studied the Bible and other religious writings and have found them disturbing for many valid reasons. You have to make up some very strange and inconsistent rules to resolve the Dogma of the Christian and Islamic churches. Further, the more you study the Bible / Koran and the History of the Christian/Muslim Churches, the worse it gets! Most wars and atrocities since Jesus’ time have been in the name of God, many with Christians and Muslims whacking each other. BTW, the world-wide rise in Islamic Fascism is a prime example and is also a clear and present danger. But, where is/was God’s Spirit in all this, you know, the one that was supposed to lead us in spirit and all truth?

Why aren't our prayers moving mountains? Why aren't our fervent and honest requests, especially those for others, being answered? There are promises made, allegedly by Jesus, that simply do not happen today even for the best and most faithful Christians I've ever known. I don't like making excuses for God!

The God revealed in the Bible/Koran seems VERY human-like, perhaps this is his appeal. He (it) is blood-thirsty, jealous, prejudiced, changeable, capricious and unjust. Jesus is somewhat better but seems to be cross-thread in nature to the God of the OT and to almost every accepted Jewish practice and doctrine of his day. How did the Jews get this so wrong for so long and why didn't God straighten them out?

I have read and heard that God loves us. I love my children and I want them to love me too, but whether they return that love does not change my love for them, and yes, I would give my life for them if I thought it would save theirs. But why does God, command me to kill my unruly kids, or others who worship differently, or those who pick up sticks on the Sabbath or the children of my enemies, especially since I'm commanded to Love my enemies! Or hate those who eat shell fish, or those who remarry the same person after divorce or homosexuals or women that wear pants or guys with long hair? God's “Love” revealed in the Bible is certainly hard to understand. Perhaps he is deceiving me, because in the end-times God will send strong delusion, that I should believe a lie?

Not only is God a deceiver, but he admits that he created Evil and/or allows it (Isa 45:7 and Amos 3:6, Job 2:1-7). I won’t do to my kids what God did to Job. Why does God make birth defects? (Ex 4:11) Why does He sometimes wipe out the enemies of Israel Himself and at other times tell Israel to do it? Why does He kill 70,000 of his own people for something David did? Why shouldn’t Christians kill their babies, since this would insure their place in heaven? Why does God hold me and my children and grandchildren responsible for the sins of my Parents? Why would he condemn some one to an infinite Hell for finite sin or because they didn’t believe “the right” things?

I don’t recommend this, but if you are brave, very brave, try asking these questions to church officials or learned men of God and see what you get. You will soon learn why many here have chosen not to believe.

Don’t Hate – It destroys the giver!

Anonymous said...

Are you talking about the same Roman Catholics who have been butchering people almost since its inception? Indians, Jews, and almost every race in the Americas?
God damn you are so fucking ignorant that makes my blood boil. I would love to show you the way, truth and the life.
oh, you for you and other RC fruitcakes...
Pope is just poop mis-spelled.
Each time you think of the Pope, may this phrase come to your head. and you can thank me for giving you this lifetime memory implant.
Now just go and try to think of Pope without the word POOP coming to mind. Enjoy, and you're welcome.
Pope is Poop - hallilujah!

blaine said...

O'Hara, You must be a great, compassionate Christian. You recognize that we who are on this site are "children of Satan", "lazy", "too bad" about being blinded to the truth, "hardly worth talking to" and a condescending "have a nice day".
Just a few points if you don't mind. Your church was responsible for the mass murder of 50 to 80 million people, many of them other Christians, during the dark ages alone. Please read some unbiased history. If you can get your hands on the book printed in 1658 titled "The History of the Evangelical Churches of the Valleys of the Piemont" by Samuel Morland. This book has "pictures" [carvings on wood pressed onto the pages] of Catholics taking others, including Christians, who refused to join the Catholic church, being hoisted atop a long shaft several feet above the ground, belly down, and the weight of the poor victim's body would impale itself upon the pole. It took some people several days to die. Or the Pope who was told by his inquisitors that they could not tell the Catholics from the non-Catholics in one town, to which the Pope responded, "Kill them all". Or your Christians who told me that I should have let those gay youth, some as young as 12, that I prevented from committing suicide, to let them kill them self so they would not "contaminate the rest of society".
For your information I was raised a RC and studied for the priesthood. I am degreed in theology and Bible languages and have taught in Seminary and Bible College here and in Russia. I have read alot of history in their original reports [ie, the book published in 1658] and read on several other subjects. My library consists of several thousand books.
If you have the heart and patience you will find that most here are understanding and willing to listen or cut some slack to those who do not come here with a blinded, bigoted attitude.
Also reread the passage you quoted from 2Thessalonians chapter one and you will note that those receiving the strong delusions are those alive on the Earth AFTER the Antichrist of Revelation is present.
You are a poor witness for Christ and I have seen enough hate from "strong Christians" to wish not to be associated with them.
Take some of the good advice given here by others. Do some serious study of your own religion, its various Councils and forthcoming doctrines, its brutality and immorality, and how the Bible was put together.
Do I believe in God? Yes, because when I look up into the heavens, watch an eagle sore, a wolf howl or a child smile I see the face of God and I can never forget what Jesus did for me on a winter night in 1971.
Take care but please become informed, blaine

Anonymous said...

1. If intelligent design was part of the creation of the universe, it still remains at least as ridiculous to believe it happened in 6 days and was then derailed by a talking snake.

2. Christianity isn't the only religion that sucks. All 3 of the Abrahamic religions (Islam, Judiasm, Christianity) suck. There are things about other religions that suck too, but most of them don't suck as a whole, because they don't have the repugnant "only way" syndrome going for them.

3. Congratulations on your membership in the Church Of Saint Pedofuck. That really qualifies you as a moral authority.

Have a nice day.
...and click here to keep spreading santorum.

Anonymous said...

1. If intelligent design was part of the creation of the universe, it still remains at least as ridiculous to believe it happened in 6 days and was then derailed by a talking snake.

2. Christianity isn't the only religion that sucks. All 3 of the Abrahamic religions (Islam, Judiasm, Christianity) suck. There are things about other religions that suck too, but most of them don't suck as a whole, because they don't have the repugnant "only way" syndrome going for them.

3. Congratulations on your membership in the Church Of Saint Pedofuck. That really qualifies you as a moral authority.

Have a nice day.
...and click here to keep spreading santorum.

SpaceMonk said...

"God makes the rules folks. If you don't like it, too bad!!!"

I don't have to submit to something I don't like. If god doesn't like it, too bad!!!

...but seriously D.O.
A lot of what you may interpret as hate is just us kicking ourselves at how stupid we once were as christians, and how stupid christianity in general is.

It's also frustrating that now we see how stupid we once were, why can't those still stuck in it see the same things?
...especially after we've tried to explain.

Anonymous said...

It always amuses me when xtians think satan is ruling our lives. No, the underground boogeyman is not whispering in our ears telling us what to do. Most of us actually studied the bible and found it for what it was, a fairy tale. So that book, an outdated one at that, you quote means nothing.

rossextian said...

As an ex-Christian, I can say that Christians have this incredible slave-and-master mentality, that denies man the free will it professes to give.

Christians say you have free will, but then with blatant hypocracy say you must either serve God or serve Satan and go to hell. When I was struggling to leave the Christian fold, there were times I wanted to burn a copy of the King James Bible and burn a copy "The Satanic Bible" by Anton Lavey and yell "Fuck the both of you!"

Christians say that God denies non-Christians a second a second chance for salvation after death, and to avoid eternal torture in flames, in order to give us free will to make a decision about eternity. But denial of second chance for salvation after death is not free will, but an act of turning Christianity into a spiritual draft, spiritual conscription. Or as best as I like to describe it: spiritual impressment!

It is not fair justice that Jesus Christ only had to be tortured for three days, but those who die as non-Christians must be tortured, in flames that are even worse than crucifiction, forever. For no other crime than not having the right kind of Christian belief! What an insane violation of human right! Will someone reading this please alert Amnesty International!!

Anonymous said...

The only reason you see Christianity "dogged" more than Buddhism, Islam, or Mormonism, is because Christianity is the national religion in the nation where you live.

Shiites are "dogging" Sunnis right now (way worse than you are being dogged.) Shiites aren't dogging Zoroastrians or Baal worshippers. Does this mean that therefore, Sunnis are proven logically correct?

Anonymous said...

d'ohara,

better men than you have presented better critiques of my weltanschauung.
those were wrong, and yours is not even the shadow of their shadows. i hope your condescending tirade made you feel good.

good day,
beanheel

Anonymous said...

Well then...

"The fact that misguided people such as yourselves are "dogging" Christianity proves the truth of the Bible."

No. It proves we are sick and tired of your bullshit. Nothing more. You people have been running the show (into the ground), lying, slandering and stealing for too long.

" It is always curious to me why Christianity is the subject of intense and frankly often misguided scrutiny when other false religions get a pass."

Because the ONLY religion that plays a part of any substantiality in the USA is Christianity. None of the others is dangerous because the numbers are too small (with the possible exception of Mormonism, which is a bunch of #*&%^& as well). ALL religions are crap in our book. It´s just that yours has all the guns and all the money.

"Let's take evolution, for example. I have often thought why something as complex as the earth, the human cell, or the universe just evolved from chance but human "creations" like the discovery of the atom, or a rap song, or your homework don't "evolve." I haven't ever seen a bicycle evolve into a car or even a Toyota into a BMW."

Because those are inorganic objects. Life, on the other hand, is organic. If you had the first clue about chemistry and natural selection, you might not have posed this moronic notion.

"Hmmm. It seems like the true reason for evolution is that lovers of falsehood such as you young misguided folks are too lazy to truly study and apply the full truth of the BIble instead of using it as an excuse for your rebellion."

That is simple slander, supported by nothing else than your ignorance and bigotry. Again, if you knew anything about evolution, you would not have stated this.

"Also, Christians in Muslim countries are treated like garbage and in most Christian or professing countries Muslims are allowed freedom of worship."

Therefore, our God is real. :D
No, bub, does not work that way. Just because humanism has worn away at the essential barbaric bloodthirstiness of your primitive religion, does not mean it is better than Islam. In the middle ages, the situation was precisely reversed. You have a history of oppression, persecution and religious intolerance. So don´t try to pretend you are so great, because you suck.

"Satan is blinding you to the truth because the Bible says, "the gospel is veiled to those who are perishing." God makes the rules folks. If you don't like it, too bad!!! However, it seems like if one of you made the rules for the universe things would be pretty twisted."

So let me get this straight. If you don´t believe the Bible, you won´t believe the Bible. And God made this rule? Seems you and your god are both on crystal meth.

"God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie ( By golly, you folks are in the Bible.), that they all may be condemned "

Yep. That confirms it. Instead of educating and enlightening people who believe the wrong thing, God just pushes them deeper into the shit! Incidentally, O´Hara.... is it possible that God has sent you a strong delusion? And if not - how would you know the difference?

"And by the way spare me the lecture about inclusion or tolerance or something stupid like that because you folks and those like you are often quite intolerant. This website for example. You and those like you have twisted the meaning of tolerance so it's hardly worth talking to you."

Awww. You can dish it out but you can´t take it. That´s cowardice, O´Hara. We are intolerant, yes... of lies and bullshit, and ONLY ON THIS SITE. We don´t go out of our way to tell other people they are full of shit. You would never have complained if you had not come here in the first place.
Also... nothing we could ever do could even come close to the centuries of intolerance you asshole Christians have subjected non-Christians to.

"The fact that you folks twist something true, simple and beautifl into something hateful shows how misguided and twisted you are."

Your beliefs are not "true, simple and beautiful", they are contrived, ugly lies, created to enslave mankind. And on you, it worked. You don´t like the truth... so you fulminate against us. LOSER... ;)

"By the way, I am a member of a Roman Catholic Church.

Once again, God makes the rules and He laughs at rebels like you (Psalm 2).

Have a nice day "

A Roman Catholic DEFINITELY has no rights to complain to anyone about religious intolerance. Your supreme leader condones the structural rape of children.
Your God is evidently a fake, because if he wasn´t, the Vatican would have been destroyed by an earthquake centuries ago.

And have a nice day? Yeah, I know what you mean. Fuck you, too, you hypocritical piece of shit :)

Anonymous said...

...it's OK to say Christianity and the BIble are a bunch of #*&%^&
but what about Mormonism or Islam or Buddhism. This fact confirms that the
children of Satan aren't interested in the truth.


Mormonism is a sect Christainity and it certainly "dogged" a whole Hell of a lot! Not just by Atheists, either! Oh no, the Mormons (Morons, followers of Moroni) are mercilessly joked by their related brethren! Islam gets slammed quite a bit and well fat Buddha is just funny looking. The reason his religion gets joked is not because it's true but because it's obviously false and it's the dominant religion. Of course it's going to get attacked the most! They have the most members! Those fuckers are everywhere!

I haven't ever seen a bicycle evolve into a
car or even a Toyota into a BMW.


Me, neither. That would be magic -- which is part of the Bible. I haven't ever seen a staff turn into a snake, yet the Bible claims this can happen. I haven't seen anyone part a sea, yet, the Bible claims that this happened. I haven't seen anyone actually turn water into wine or multiply loaves of bread and fish magically. Point is, if it was in the Bible that Jesus magically turned a bike into a car, then you'd believe it. But when it comes to something like evolution that has so much incredibly strong evdience that most scientists refer to it as fact, well it's "just a theory!" Can you see an error there?

Hmmm. It seems like the true reason for evolution is that lovers of
falsehood such as you young misguided folks are too lazy to truly study and
apply the full truth of the BIble instead of using it as an excuse for your
rebellion.


As an Atheist I am constantly studying the Bible. There's no better ammunition for an Atheist than a theists's holy book. It has so many errors, contradictions and just plain horrible advice across the board that an unbeliever would be a fool to pass up such a gold mine! On the flip side, though, how heavily have you studied evolution? How many books have you read written by experts in the filed? What's that? You've only read creationist strawman bullshit? Thought so.

Satan is blinding you to the truth because the Bible says, "the gospel is
veiled to those who are perishing." God makes the rules folks. If you don't
like it, too bad!!! However, it seems like if one of you made the rules for
the universe things would be pretty twisted.


Actually, people made all the gods and goddesses, including the ones you lack belief in -- just like us! Yahweh is just a fictional character and all the rules you attribute to him are only second hand. People are the ones with their hand inside your god puppet making it seem to spring to life for the children (believers). What you fail to realize is that without the hand up inside your god, he's nothing. He's just a puppet that many have worn and used to whatever ends they have desired.

Things are pretty twisted. Why are you so blind to Malevolent Design? If you believe in a designer certainly you can see the natural evil. Explain viruses, bacteria, parasites, blood sucking insects, cancers, volcanoes, tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis, our own sun which gices us skin cancer and a host of other "twisted" things we must tolerate is this far from perfect universe!

~RAS
Founder of FSA
www.reverendatheistar.com
www.myspace.com/reverendatheistar

n/a said...

I would say D O'Hara is not a very good Christian, as he or she is bearing false witness by deliberately distorting the theory of evolution.

Hellbound Alleee said...

Well, actually, in your religion, you can't know that Satan isn't blinding YOU to the truth. Or your God for that matter. Didn't you know that, or don't you read the bible?

And FYI, I think all belief systems are silly.

Anonymous said...

D O'Hara said:
"The fact that misguided people such as yourselves are "dogging" Christianity proves the truth of the Bible."

Yes, and the fact that so many people make fun of Britney Spears proves she's talented.

Oh, and for the record, I think Mormonism and Islam are both a crock of shit too. At least a Buddhist won't condemn you to hell for not agreeing with their doctrine, unlike the Abrahamic religions.

Anonymous said...

I've got a pile of work that I'm (temporarily) avoiding, which is why I'm going to drop everything and respond to your very insightful post, D. O'Hara.

DOH: "I have often thought why something as complex as the earth, the human cell, or the universe just evolved from chance but human 'creations' like the discovery of the atom, or a rap song, or your homework don't "evolve." I haven't ever seen a bicycle evolve into a car or even a Toyota into a BMW."

I can see that you put some very serious thought into this. Yes, it is puzzling why creations like the discovery of the atom don't evolve, isn't it. I mean, when you create a discovery, that's exactly like an organism, isn't it? And why my toaster has not yet become a microwave oven is baffling as well. I check every morning, and there it sits; still a toaster. Don't even get me started on cars. Need I mention that my Honda has not made an inch of progress toward a Volvo, let alone a BMW? All of it casts a deep suspicion on evolution, doesn't it? Very deep.

DOH: "Hmmm. It seems like the true reason for evolution is that lovers of falsehood such as you young misguided folks are too lazy to truly study and apply the full truth of the BIble instead of using it as an excuse for your rebellion."

Boy, you sure pegged me. I just love falsehood. Can't get enough of it. And lazy... See, here I sit typing to you when I should be doing something useful. Guilty as charged.

DOH: "God makes the rules folks. If you don't like it, too bad!!! However, it seems like if one of you made the rules for the universe things would be pretty twisted."

Wow, got me again. I think it would be a very bad idea to have me in charge of the universe. It's hard enough for me to get through all my email on six cups of coffee. I'd probably say "Okay guys, you're on your own for a while. Try to be nice and play fair." and then go hang out at the doughnut shop.

I can see why you like the Bible so much. Do you have the kind with pictures? I think it's much nicer with pictures, don't you? Take care now.

Anonymous said...

"It is always curious to me why Christianity is the subject of intense and frankly often misguided scrutiny when other false religions get a pass."

"OTHER" False Religions?

That would imply to me that O'Hara knows Christianity to be fake.

Pardon me, but your Freudian slip is showing, Dear...

ha-ha...

Anonymous said...

Who here is "missguided"? I escaped the christian cult some 20 years ago. Who is "dogging" christianity?, and how does this proove that the fairy tales in your bible are true?, other "false" religions arent trying to force everyone to bow to their will, The christian "fase" religion IS.
And NO scrutiny is ever "missguided".
PS if the other "false" religions get a "pass", what does that "pass" look like?

Mormonism IS christianity, Islam is almost as vile as christianity, and buddhism is not a threat to the survival of the species. That fact are you talking about? Who or what are/is the children of satan?

Evolution: YESSSSSSS!!!!!!
1) What is evolution?

Evolution is a process of genetic diversification
within a breeding population of a species.
Described as "descent with modification" by C Darwin.
Evolution can also be described as a change in alele frequencys
within a population.

(please note the word POPULATION)


2) How does evolution work?

Evolution works by genetic recombination to create and increase
genetic diversity within a population.

As long as the population is able to interbreed among itself
across all sub populations. That species will evolve as a single
species. However, If a sub population of the species becomes geneticly
isolated from the rest of the population, That sub population will begin
to evolve along a different path.

Environment is a primary driver of evolution, As long as the environment
remains stable, The population will also remain fairly stable, Evolving
slowly but not realy changing.
When the environment changes, Evolution becomes much faster, And
sudden drastic changes take place in only a few generations.

Nothing evolved from "chance" you dolt, the earth is a PLANET, and does not evolve, the universe did not evolve,
my last homework project did not evolve, NONE OF THESE THINGS ARE ALIVE,
Evolution requires a breeding population of LIVING things, Toyotas are not living things, they are MANUFACTURED ARTIFACTS.

The ONLY reason for evolution, is life, Please name even one "lover of falsehood" here.
hat "young missguided folks" are you talking about please?
EXCUSE ME, I STUDIED THE BIBLE FOR YEARS YOU FUCKING BAG OF SHIT.
The truth of the bible is that the earth is a flat disc, and the sky is a solid dome with windows to let the rain in,
What rebelion is that please?, and why would I need an excuse for a rebelion?

Excuse me? So why are christians excluded from conscription in most islamic states? why are christians alowed to use tax revenue to maintain their churches ?? and why do islamic states not produce anti christian hate propaganda? why are there more acts of anti islamic violence from christians, then there are acts of anti christian violence from ALL non christian communitys combined?
\
Nobody is "blinding" me to anything, my eyesight is still quite good after 40 years reading and study and hard work,
Your mindless ravings are noted,
And if I made the rules for the universe, I would probably try to use the ones we alreadty have. How are "things"(what things?) pretty "twisted"??

By Who we "folks" are in the bible??
Who the fuck is "Golly"?
As where am I in the bible? What version? which run of what publication ?

Which god held out his hand please?
the only hate here is what you bring in with you,
Why am I to be "pityed? are you realy so arrogant and condescending that you feel the need to Pity anyone who isnt you?

What do I "twist"? please give me an example of even one thing that I "twist".

How am I "missguided"? how am I "twisted"?

Wich god makes which rules? and what "rebels" like us ? You realy have a problem with freedom fighters and opponents of injustice. Why?

huesnlight said...

Why do we allow posts like these? D'Ohara has nothing constructive to say on the Christian behalf besides nonsensical wording, and the logic in the sentences are appalling. It's like we're purposely posting this for the sake of bashing a 12 year old Christian.

Don't get me wrong, I would jump at a chance to bash at a Christian, but posts like D'Ohara's makes it too easy.

Anonymous said...

DOH.......it's fu*k nuts like you that drive GOOD people out of churches... running....and hurting.......you have not a worry in your heart about anyone other than YOU. I am sure that making sure your church has enough donuts and coffee on Sunday mornings are your prime interest.
I wonder, did your jesus treat YOU in this same way at one time or another? Are you compensating for some lack of acknowledgment or abuse from a parent. You must be or, you would have read the Bible with much more understanding and compassion and live a life comparatable to Christ, the loving father, not the abusive father. But, instead, you search out the x and non christians to verbally vomit your venom on them. I wonder how your jesus looks at you now? Its so sad that your treatment of X or non christians is so full of bile and hate! As a psychiatrist that deals in Spiritual Abuse, I can tell you that YOU need to be in therapy ASAP, as you are having delusional thoughts and have anger problems with those who are not willing to agree with your every whim.
My only "prayer" for you is that YOUR christ treats YOU as you have treated others......If I was you, I would buy a Ticket to Iran,Iraq or Syria, that way your christ would find you were you belong, with all the other murdering and misguided assholes!

Anonymous said...

"I haven't ever seen a bicycle evolve into a car or even a Toyota into a BMW".
(Big yawn while scrathing his head). Christians are sooooooooooo uneducated.
Jesus Christ! you don't know jack shit about cars. When Toyota first came to america they were inexpensive, small and rusted out in your driveway. Today they make one of the finest automobiles out there. And for your information Toyota is the manufacturer of Lexus. That is way better then your fuckin BMW. That is evolution my friend. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Anonymous said...

Well Doh, they take bicycles and toy wagons and tin cans and melt them down and sell them as renewed metal to car companies and they therefore evolve into car doors and car frames and car parts. DOH, you dipshit fundy!!

Anonymous said...

The article was another big yawn; yet another hit and run fundie coward.

I'm just here because I was hoping Nvrgoingbk would treat us to another song...

But pope is just poop spelled wrong? THAT was great! Made it worth the trip, thanks!

Nvrgoingbk said...

A "song" twincats?

Anonymous said...

I strongly suspect this lovely gentleman is an atheist trying to paint christians in a very, very bad light.

Anonymous said...

The main reason why Christianity is the most scrutinized religion in the world is because the countries in which it's the majority religion, there has long been a tradition of free speech. Muslims don't have that right in their native countries.

But there is another reason that seldom gets a mention. Most Americans that "dog" Chrisianity do so because they see it as a white-majority religion, which it is. Islam is practiced mostly by non-whites in Third World countries, and attacking it would make the same white liberals feel bigoted. Always cut non-whites some slack, even if it requires you to ignore greater evil in another religious group.

If a Muslim says something in the company of white liberals that is degrading about Christianity, these liberals are unlikely to point out that the same can be said about Islam, especially if this is in a college setting. But if a Christian attacks Islam, these same white liberals will jump at the chance to prove that the same thing is true about Christianity.

Basically, the only religious group in the US that has been trying to ban abortion and gay rights, rock and roll, and R-rated films has been Christian. Muslims haven't done this in the US yet, but if they ever do, THEN your dream of wider Islam-bashing will begin.

Anonymous said...

D. O'Hara: No one hated you enough to censor your text – it was posted with all others. Obviously, you are free to express your feelings, hatred, umbrage, venom or whatever. I think this site deserves credit for this, don't you?

Many here are earnest truth-seekers and have studied the Bible and other religious writings and have found them disturbing for many valid reasons. You have to make up some very strange and inconsistent rules to resolve the Dogma of the Christian and Islamic churches. Further, the more you study the Bible or Koran and the History of the Christian and Muslim Churches, the worse it gets! Most wars since Jesus’ time have been in the name of God, many with Christians and Muslims whacking each other.

BTW, the world-wide rise in Islamic Fascism is a prime example of this clear and present danger. This is why Governments and Religions MUST be separated, including in America, because both exert power and control over people. History has proven, time and time again, that absolute power corrupts absolutely. Put the two together and history will show you some of the worst atrocities ever unleashed on mankind.

I ask you, where is, or was, God’s Spirit in all of this, you know, the one that is supposed to lead us in spirit and all truth? Face it, it’s not there. And what about prayer? Why aren't our prayers moving mountains and instantly healing the sick? Why aren't our fervent and honest requests, especially those for others, being answered? There are many promises made, allegedly by Jesus, that simply do not happen even for the kindest and most faithful Christians I've ever known. Do you spend a lot of time making excuses for God? Where is the Truth in this?

If you are honest with yourself, you will discover that the god revealed in the Bible and Koran is VERY human-like, perhaps this is his appeal. He (it) is blood-thirsty, jealous, prejudiced, changeable, capricious and unjust. Jesus is somewhat better but seems to be cross-thread in nature to the God of the OT and to almost every accepted Jewish practice and doctrine of his day. Why would an unchanging God change his mind and why did he let the Jews get this so wrong for so long? And why did God pick the Jews, ah, I mean the Arabs if you are Muslim? Let’s see, I have Jew Scriptures telling me that the Jews are “chosen”, Arabic Scriptures telling me that the Arabs are “chosen” and Christian scriptures telling me that Christians are “chosen”. Sounds VERY self serving and preferential to me, certainly not an impractical lover of all of God’s Children. So we have more “Clubs” or “Gangs” to join, I suppose, something else to divide us and stymie our growth and progress as humans.

Nevertheless, I have read and heard that God loves his children. I love my children and I want them to love me too, but whether they return that love does not change my love for them, and yes, I would give my life for them if I thought it would save theirs. But why does God, command me to kill my unruly kids, or others who worship differently, or those who pick up sticks on the Sabbath or the children of my enemies, especially since I'm commanded to Love my enemies! Or hate those who eat shell fish, or those who remarry the same person after divorce or homosexuals or women that wear pants or guys with long hair? God's “Love”, revealed in the Bible and Koran, is certainly hard to understand. I would be hard pressed to recommend these religions to anyone, although, I’m told I must. Perhaps god is deceiving me, (gee, that’s noble) because in the end-times god will send strong delusion, that I should believe a lie?

Not only is God a deceiver, but he admits that he created Evil and/or allows it (Isa 45:7 and Amos 3:6, Job 2:1-7). I wouldn’t do to my kids what God did to Job! Why does God make birth defects? (Ex 4:11) Why does he sometimes wipe out the enemies of Israel Himself and at other times tell Israel to do it? Why does he kill 70,000 of his own people for something David did? Why shouldn’t Christians kill their babies, since this would insure their kid’s place in heaven? Why does God hold me and my children and grandchildren responsible for the sins of my parents? Why would he condemn some one to an infinite Hell for a finite sin or because they didn’t believe “the right” things or never even heard “the right” things?

I don’t recommend this, but if you are brave, very brave, try asking these questions to church officials or learned people of God and see what you get. You will soon learn why many here have chosen not to believe.

So, is it possible to be good without god? You bet! This is not to say that Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc have not done good and noble things – they have and will in the future, but most do these IN SPITE of what their sacred books and religions teach, NOT because of them!

Finally, Don’t Hate – It destroys the Giver!

Anonymous said...

DOH ! I would at this point take pleasure in reinforcing the "every time you see the POOP" theory".
Were I live one can take the word "POPE" and by simply juggling a few letters, make it POEP, which in our local lingo means something akin to a "wet fart" ie: Ek het die Poep in sy poepmobile gesien".
I know that this will readily sink into your dilly brain that is so easily brainwashed.
So I invite you,whenever,wherever, be it in church or while you're dishing out the tea & donuts, may the words poop & poep circle around dizzyingly in your head !

Anonymous said...

can anyone on this thread tell me what God is like?

freeman said...

He is like the toothfairy, santa claus, unicorns, easterbunny, etc...

Anonymous said...

Can you perhaps be a little more specific as to which God you are refering to? There's so many to choose from!

They all seem to be the same to me.
I cannot tell any difference as to one having any more power over any other God. Can you??

Which God do you like bestest???

Lya Kahlo said...

Everyone, we should thank "Dr." O'Hara for showing us that the danger of religion is that it makes (or keeps) you tremendously ignorant.

All those logical fallacies gave me a headache.

Anonymous said...

Wow. Statements like this concerning biological evolution always results in the severe loss of brain cells for me.

Anonymous said...

By the way,,, Doesnt this guy sound a bit like darth vader?

"Once again, God makes the rules and He laughs at rebels like you"

"Once again, the emperor makes the rules and He laughs at rebels like you"

Anonymous said...

Hey D
Do you somehow think that somehow you have secret info that no one else heard before? I mean if Christianity were real you guys have the best game in town. You walk the straight and narrow, claim to believe and before you know it you get to live forever.The truth is that it just ain't so. People don't reject a pitch like that if it was just to be obstinate.

SpaceMonk said...

"I haven't ever seen a bicycle evolve into a car or even a Toyota into a BMW."

Then watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXOymInsHPY

Anonymous said...

Can anyone tell me how science fact disproves God? *intersted* not so intrested in the theory bits. Facts would be nice. I want real logic here. I want evidence. Then you can convert me and. C'mon prove to me that a life spent hating Christians, or whatever is so worthwhile. Why not try proving to yourself that we really did originally come from a rock!

Anonymous said...

'Anonymous said...
"Can anyone tell me how science fact disproves God?"
It doesnt, Nor does it even care to"*intersted* not so intrested in the theory bits. Facts would be nice. I want real logic here." "I want evidence."
Evidence of what please?, "Then you can convert me and." And what? Convert you to what please? "C'mon prove to me that a life spent hating Christians, or whatever is so worthwhile." How can I proove something as pointless as wasting your life on hating any cult is somehow worthwhile? How can I proove that something so silly is worthwhile? and why would I even want to try? "Why not try proving to yourself that we really did originally come from a rock!"
I did originly come from a large rock, So I dont need to proove it to myself. Its called the canadian shield, Its the nucleus of the continent.
I was born in Montreal. Is there a point to this?


11/18/2006 11:28 AM

webmdave said...

Can anyone tell me how science fact disproves God?

The same way science disproves the existence of fairies, no unicorns, no bogeyman, dragons, Santa and his elves, and none of the myriad of goblins, ghosts, and other fancifully fantasized spirits and sprites that people once believed were real. When a person realizes there is just as much evidence that any of these other magical beings exist as a god, we realize that no god exists either. A god has as much evidence of existing as all these other things that were once believed to be real.

Or rather, since there is no evidence that any of these magical entities exist, then that would be like asking science to prove there that are no invisible, immaterial men from Mars camped out on my front porch. I mean, they're invisible and immaterial -- the exist in another dimension. But I know they are living on my porch! I know it! I can feel it in my heart!!!

Get it?

Anonymous said...

D Ohara, no one wants to waste their time responding to a chicken shit fundy.

So you find people created out of dirt, somehow more believable, huh?

Anonymous said...

Dear anonymous coward,

first of all, we atheists do not need to support our beliefs, because our beliefs are very simple, basic and thoroughly rooted in reality. If you only believe normal stuff, there is no call for very compelling evidence.

Your belief in a god, however, is not normal. It is not obvious, nor even logical, that a god created mankind. In fact, the facts show us that all life, including mankind, evolved, ultimately from what we would describe as lifeless chemicals (although not rocks, as you, I hope facetiously, suggested).

Facts... how can we prove NO god exists? Well, we can´t. It is not practically possible to prove a negative.

What we CAN do is prove that the Bible is factually innacurate, and that its claims as regards a creator-god are therefore unreliable, if not completely invalid.

Do you want some examples, anonymous?

boomSLANG said...

Anony: Can anyone tell me how science fact disproves God? *intersted* not so intrested in the theory bits. Facts would be nice. I want real logic here. I want evidence. Then you can convert me and. C'mon prove to me that a life spent hating Christians, or whatever is so worthwhile. Why not try proving to yourself that we really did originally come from a rock!

Anon---'real quick lesson for ya: Firstly, no one, including "science", is saying that "God" is disproven. What science and the Atheist/Agnostic position is saying, is that "God" is unproven. Please learn the difference between the two. Anon, "God" can't be "disproven", absolutely, any more than the Great Pumpkin can be "disproven", absolutely. Maybe there is a Divine pumpkin patch 2 million light-years away on planet Squash, and the Great Pumpkin lives there. It's not bloody likely, however, "science" can't say for certain that it's not true. So wha'da ya think?...does the Great Pumkin "exist", because we can't "prove" that the Great Pumpkin absolutely doesn't exist? Exactly, that's what I thought.

Secondly, we don't "hate" Christians---however, yes, many of us loathe Christianity, and especially the tactics used to promote it.

Thirdly, you exploit your own ignorance on the subject of the Theory, and fact, of evolution. This happens when you use such apologetic strawman arguments as the ole "people come from rocks" analogy. Look around for some unbiased definitions and explanations, and try to educate yourself before you make such absurd remarks, mm'k?

christuffer said...

The biggest insult is that you refer to us as 'Children of Satan".


Satan is another invention of your Church to keep people like you in order.

Based on a previous design they nicked from elsewhere - like all of the Church's fantasies.

So please don't connect me with of your pathetic fictional figures.

Anonymous said...

well leon as to which god i was reffering to. i was asking about any of the ones anyone else believed in or followed or worshiped. just interested in hearing what anyone elses favorite god was like. as for which god i like the best i would have to say Jesus/God and mostly because of his love for me which i believe was also in some way a power that was demonstrated on the cross by taking my place was able to conquer all things. there are also some stories about contest between the God of the bible and other gods. the other gods always lost.

steamboat_willey said...

Anony:

One of the chief gripes I have with faith in God is that there is no way to disprove anything the minister says. You can disprove things the Bible says, and then they are explained away through some mystical argument. It's a brilliant story because the whole construct is immune from all requests for validation that we normally require of other ideas. Ironically, it's this construct that many people are willing to dedicate their lives to following, not a construct that opens itself up to testing, correction and refinement.

Consequently, religion has not yielded a shred of new knowledge to mankind in thousands of years. It typically celebrates primitivism and unreason. We have a new way of knowing the world that it hates. It is called science.

Anonymous said...

I haven't ever seen a bicycle evolve into a car or even a Toyota into a BMW.

Are you sure that you're not talking about Transformers?

But in all honesty, you've got to be shitting me... Even the guy's initials spell out "doh".

Anonymous said...

steamboat, the first preachers walked with him were eyewitnesses and only spoke of what they themselves saw. they had nothing to gain by saying it. they could have saved their lives by not talking about it but they said it anyway. alot of the story can be historically supported and verified by nonbiblical sources. as far as proving it maybe it cant be proved in some ways but something happend to those people 2000 years ago that changed the course of human history that is for sure

J. C. Samuelson said...

'nony,

I don't want to put any words in willey's mouth, but it doesn't look like he was speaking specifically about the gospels. That being said, the gospels are far from having been historically verified. Even if every physical detail about Jesus' life could be verified - his family connections, his ministry, where he walked, etc. - there is a titanic leap of faith to be made where the miraculous is concerned.

The gospel writers have not been shown to have been companions of Jesus. As a matter of fact, two of them (Mark & Luke) can be conclusively shown as having reported their information from second or third hand sources, even if we accept the notion of authorship having occurred during the disciples' lifetime. One of the others (Matthew) shows a remarkable lack of knowledge of the Hebrew scriptures, and his mode of discourse is not what one would expect of a 1st century Jew. Rather, he writes as an educated Greek, using the Septuagint as his source material. The final gospel (John) is almost gnostic in its approach. Indeed, none of the other gospel writers is as bold or so focused on the mystical aspects of Jesus. Ironically, his is most likely to have been written by an actual disciple.

As for what risks they undertook to say what they said, all you need to do is wonder why suicide bombers are willing to die for their faith. If their faith is false (as you would undoubtedly suggest), what could possibly motivate them to do such a thing? The obvious answer is that willingness to die for one's convictions is not evidence that your ideology is sound.

Of course 'something' happened. It was a very turbulent time, religiously speaking, when Jesus is alleged to have begun his ministry. The Essenes, the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and more - all struggling to gain or maintain a foothold in the religious life of ancient Palestine. Christianity just happens to be one that turned out to be successful. Perhaps the irony is that it had to begin outside Palestine to become a success; away from the very place that was expecting a messiah.

Is it possible that Peter and Paul erected the structure of Christianity around a myth of a resurrected man very similar to that of Mythra? Given the superstitions of the day, it's not hard to imagine this myth taking hold; especially considering the message of hope for a hereafter, in which all people, regardless of social station on earth, would be equal.

If only a message actually could verify itself, we wouldn't have disputes over religion.

steamboat_willey said...

Anon:

JC has a point. The suicide bombers deflate your argument. Perhaps the gospel story tellers did have something to gain, even if it was just attention-getting.

The UFO fanatics are a modern day equivalent. They go around telling stories of abduction and space travel if for no other reason than they have lost the distinction between fantasy and reality. As David Hume said, those who claim to have witnessed miracles "make believers of themselves first, then set out to convert the rest of the world."

The true test was also put forth by Hume. It isn't whether or not somebody is willing to die for the story. The test is, which is the greater miracle?
a) the supernatural events in the story really happened, or
b) the human storyteller said something untrue
(deemed miraculous because the storyteller has such tremendous credibility).

You should accept the least unbelievable alternative and reject the greater of the two miracles.

In the case of all stories of supernatural occurence and resurrections, this test results in an utter dismissal of the story being told and the religions based upon those stories. I think it extends to anybody who ever claimed to receive instructions from God. (Hume didn't take the argument that far).

There were more than 20 gospels written. Who decided which ones were to be bound in leather? It was Emperor Constantine. He was the one who changed the world. Jesus was just a man who died on a cross. Once Constantine discovered that many of his followers were literate, he had to keep them alive to help his government function. Therefore he decided to standardize the Christian faith and synchretize it with paganism.

Anonymous said...

j.c. samuelson and steamboat, you are right steamboat wasnt talking about the gospels per se but i did want to take the conversation there because of his immune from validation point. i do feel the martyrs of the church are a powerful witness, maybe not proof but not ignorable either. i will have to differ in opinion with equating a martyr to a suicide bomber. the suicide bomber is motivated the exact opposite way of a mrtyr in that he desires to kill others with himself in the mistaken belief that killing others will somehow please God. im using a palm pilot so it will be neccessary to continue in the next post.

Anonymous said...

j.c. samuelson and steamboat, you are right steamboat wasnt talking about the gospels per se but i did want to take the conversation there because of his immune from validation point. i do feel the martyrs of the church are a powerful witness, maybe not proof but not ignorable either. i will have to differ in opinion with equating a martyr to a suicide bomber. the suicide bomber is motivated the exact opposite way of a mrtyr in that he desires to kill others with himself in the mistaken belief that killing others will somehow please God. im using a palm pilot it is making it necess ry to continue in the following post

Anonymous said...

continued from above...Christian martyrs died only becaused they believed no weapons no malicious intent only when confronted by the choice of denying Jesus or death. the God of the martyrs taught them to love there neighbor as theirself. pbs frontline published this link to the diary of st perpetua www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/maps/primary/perpetua.html she died in the roman coliseum. many of the great scientist were and are Christian the church teaches there is no conflict with God and science. i look forward to further discussion on science and the gospel writers. much of which i can see we will agree on but it will have to be in the next post. i will try to check this one more often i almost didnt see it was still being posted on.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous,

You can draw as many distinctions between the Christian martyrs and suicide bombers as you like. The point is that people willingly go to their deaths for beliefs that we can all agree are absurd. In other words, strong belief (even to the point of martyrdom) does not imply truth. I might add that many Jews and Pagans went to their deaths at the hands of Christians for what they believed. Every religion seems to have its martyrs.

By the way, the evidence for the martyrdom of the disciples is scant. For example, Origen, writing in the mid third century, said the number of Christians who had been martyred could be "easily numbered", and refers to them as "few". Moreover, he does not document the martyrdom of the disciples. So, what is the evidence you find most compelling for their martyrdom?

Anonymous said...

Using the rather dubious standard of "They chose to die for their beliefs, therefore those beliefs must have been true", I could easily validate the beliefs of my ancestors' neighbours. Many of them were murdered when they refused to convert to Christianity. A similar thing happened in the homeland of my partner.

Because we're both here today, our own ancestors must have gone into hiding, pretended to convert, or actually converted.

The only lesson I've managed to draw from this is that beliefs held too tightly tend to be rather lethal. Doesn't say one flipping thing as to who's right and who's wrong.

Anonymous said...

In response to some of the above. I made sure to mention that it was not proof both times i wrote on martyrs. I was responding to the idea that Jesus diciples lived with and worked with Him for years had ample time to find any frued in His life or teaching. Found none and testified to it with beatings that are recorded and martyrdom that in their case is based largely on tradition. I still think that was fairly good evidence they did not flipantly start up a new religion. continued...

Anonymous said...

contiued from preceding post. In the case of the early church the numbers are not exactly known but it was at least in the thousands attested to by sources outside the church here is one link www.bible-researcher.com/persecution.html but the persecution in the early church was widespread very brutal though off and on and usually in specific communities. Maybe origen was writting about a specific communty when he said there wasnt that many or maybe a couple thousand isnt that many but it is still going on it is estimated that there have been more martyrs in the last 50 years than the in early church. Most likely today someone will be martyred and even more made slaves for being a Christian.

Anonymous said...

J.C. Samuelson, It is common knowledge that probably the gospels were written by communities most likely founded by the diciples. Writing in someones elses name was a common practice in ancient times as a way of honoring someone not decieving others. Regardless there were real diciples Peter was one. Paul did write in that first generation of believers who had many eyewitnesses in their presence. Luke set out to proclaim an orderly account John wrote of just some of the things that happened in order that we might believe. continued in next post...

Anonymous said...

continued from previous... There is enough evidence to resonably believe that the latest epistle was written no latter than the year 122 and even though noone in ancient times recorded history using the same methods we do now much of what was written has been substaintiated by many todays scholarly methods. Even some things that were once thought to disprove the accuracy of the gospels latter discoveries revealed that the gospels were correct after all. I would disagree that matthew showed a lack of knowledge of hebrew scriptures quit the contrary shows an exellent understanding of them. You will have to explain what you mean by that and also about Johns gospel being gnostic. continued in next

Anonymous said...

...continued from previous post. Gnosticism proposed a very complicated pantheon on gods and semigods a hatred of matter in it being sinful a going to be destroyed and even for gender. Every one of these tenents of gnosticism is rejected by Johns gospel the Trinitarian God is One (i know its a difrent discussion) there are no others, women are celebrated as heroes and God is redeeming His creation. I find it hard to understand how brining up gnosticism can have any bearing on the message of Johns gospel.

Anonymous said...

Steamboat, As for the credibility test suggested by Hume I dont understand what is meant by b)the human story teller said something untrue. did you mean "did not say something untrue"?

Anonymous said...

In response to the original post:

The Bible says that all Christians will be persecuted for their faith. The fact that other religions are going unnoticed is kinda proof that they are not true.

As far as the evolution statement,well, we don't see those things evolving because they are man made and nothing that man creates is living.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs. I am a Southern Baptist. That is what I choose to believe. In my opinion, Jesus Christ is the son of God and he died to save me from eternal seperation from God (which is hell). No one can decide for anyone else what they should believe and no matter what you say you can never change someone's mind if they are not open to the gospel. Only God can do that.

In my opinion (so don't rip me to shreds), tolerance is a way for Satan to penetrate into people's lives by telling them they must be politically correct. Personally, I don't make jokes, insults, etc. against anyone else's decisions. If I don't agree, I don't allow them in my life but I don't try to insult their way of life.

I am grateful that this site exists b/c even though Christianity and Jesus Christ is being ridiculed and torn, the discussion and awareness is alive.


To boomslang:

The Pope is NOT the final authority on any religion. And if he accepted evolution that is his belief. Everyone says that it was impossible for the world to be created in 6 days. However, if the metaphysical realm cannot be measured then God's time and our time may be completely different. 6 days could mean 6 years, 6 centuries, or 600 million years. we don't know.

To Jt(former Christian):

do you think that there could be a possible reason other than anger for your sensitivity to the Christian ways? If you believed once in God/Jesus Christ, then what is stopping you know from that faith?

This post was not meant to disrespect anyone. However, I will not apologize for my personal opinion that I have stated. Please be aware that Christians are not supposed to be perfect.

Yours truly,

lynn

Anonymous said...

"The fact that misguided people such as yourselves are "dogging" Christianity proves the truth of the Bible."

I fail to see the reasoning in your logic...based off of Aristotelian's model of logic, your argument is flawed. Your argument consists of the fallacies of Shifting the burden of truth, Appeal to Ignorance ("Ad Ignorantiam") and several forms of Straw man, and Red Herring. I'm seriously unconvinced that you know at all what you are talking about.

Anonymous said...

'Nony & Lynn,

"...Writing in someones elses name was a common practice in ancient times as a way of honoring someone not decieving others."

Granted. However, even first-hand witness testimony is widely considered unreliable at best. Second and third-hand is even worse. It's not necessary that there be intent to deceive; hearsay evidence is very rarely accurate because people tend to interpret things differently, sometimes placing emphasis on certain elements that have little relevance. In order to fill in gaps, it's not unusual for a witness to speculate.

This one factor is enough for what we commonly call, reasonable doubt.

"Regardless there were real diciples Peter was one."

And never wrote a thing. Mark was his companion and interpreter, and wrote that gospel. According to the early church father Eusebius, quoting Papias, wrote the following (commonly - and incompletely - quoted in many apologetics works, to include Josh McDowell's NETDAV):

"And the presbyter said this. Mark having become the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately whatsoever he remembered. It was not, however, in exact order that he related the sayings or deeds of Christ. For he neither heard the Lord nor accompanied Him. But afterwards, as I said, he accompanied Peter, who accommodated his instructions to the necessities [of his hearers], but with no intention of giving a regular narrative of the Lord's sayings. Wherefore Mark made no mistake in thus writing some things as he remembered them. For of one thing he took especial care, not to omit anything he had heard, and not to put anything fictitious into the statements." [Emphasis added]

Mark may have had the best of intentions; he may have been exceedingly careful to write down everything he could remember, but it was neither a regular nor a complete narrative. If Eusebius is quoting Papias accurately, then neither did Peter give an account or narrative of Jesus' life; he taught was he felt was important. Add Mark's potential - and I'll even grant unintended - interpretation of what Peter said, along with the possibility he forgot something, and you have great potential for error.

Again, there is reasonable doubt. That's all that's required.

Since most scholars also agree that Matthew and Luke used Mark as one of their sources...well, you see where I'm going with that.

"Paul did write in that first generation of believers who had many eyewitnesses in their presence."

Paul never saw Jesus in the flesh, and disagreed vociferously with the other apostles in such a way that they wanted him gone. Since Paul's only witness to Jesus was said to be in a vision, his "witness," such as it can be called such, is very weak.

"Luke set out to proclaim an orderly account..."

And Luke was a companion of Paul. You can guess where I might go with this.

"John wrote of just some of the things that happened in order that we might believe."

Yes, John really believed. He was something of a mystic. His gospel is the spiritual, the God-man gospel. His isn't usually considered to be an historical gospel due to his agenda.

"...much of what was written has been substaintiated by many todays scholarly methods."

Even if that were true, which is debatable, there is no way to verify any of the magical elements of any of the gospels. I've said before in different ways that we could verify every historical element of Jesus' life down to the dirt between his toes, the hair on his back, and the smell of his breath, and it would not in one way validate anything about his alleged magical healing powers or his resurrection.

"I would disagree that matthew showed a lack of knowledge of hebrew scriptures quit the contrary shows an exellent understanding of them."

What I meant by Matthew's lack of knowledge of Hebrew scripture is that he used the LXX as his source (the Septuagint - the Greek translation). Unfortunately, the Jews themselves even feel the Septuagint is a poor translation. The key word I remember Matthew misusing was "almah" (Is. 7:14). In the Septuagint, this was translated as "virgin," when the Hebrew meant simply "young woman." This is given additional weight when Jewish scholars point out that Hebrew contains another word that explicitly means virgin - "bethulah."

Of course, the controversy is that the Jews who translated the Hebrew scriptures into Greek that formed the Septuagint translated "almah" as "parthenos," which does explicitly mean virgin. Really, the argument is between the Masoretic text and the Septuagint, and we may never be 100% certain either way. The point is that there is - once again - reasonable doubt.

Furthermore, it's widely acknowledged that the author of Matthew wrote his gospel for the Jews, and works very hard to insert those things that he felt would convince them of Jesus as the promised messiah. But he tries too hard. His geneology, for example, traces the line back to David through Joseph. If Joseph was Jesus' father by blood, then Jesus was not born of a virgin, was he? So the author appears to contradict himself by trying to paint a picture of a virgin birth while giving Jesus a birthright that he could not have had according to Jewish tradition.

"You will have to explain what you mean by that and also about Johns gospel being gnostic."

Sorry. What I meant by that was that his was the most mystical, the most spiritually-oriented of all the gospels, to the point that as an historical document is has dubious value.

"The Bible says that all Christians will be persecuted for their faith."

And so they were in the early days of the Roman Empire. Not only that, but Christians persecuted Christians in the days when the Pope sought to crush any rebellion and heresy. To this day, Christians seek to crush, marginalize, even eliminate other branches of their faith that are deemed to be apostate. Northern Ireland, anyone?

Many Christians today in the U.S. have almost a "persecution complex," wherein anything that seems to challenge their faith is considered to be persecution. It's really ridiculous, but we get them all the time here.

"The fact that other religions are going unnoticed is kinda proof that they are not true."

Pardon me, but what geological age are you living in? Sorry to be sarcastic, but I don't see other religions going "unnoticed" these days. Hindus, Buddhists, and Muslims kill each other all the time on the India/Pakistan border. Jews, secular Jews, and Muslims are killing each other in Gaza and the West Bank. Muslims are killing other Muslims and Christians just about anywhere there's an opportunity. Christians kill Muslims in Iraq. Whether any of these people deserve it or not is beside the point - the fact is that other religions are rather in the spotlight right now, wouldn't you say?

In any case, how does popularity determine truth? At one time, the majority of earth's population believed the earth was flat, and that the sun revolved around it (and was a god itself). These ideas among many others have been very, very popular - and very, very wrong.

"...tolerance is a way for Satan to penetrate into people's lives by telling them they must be politically correct."

Ok, I'm gonna have to rip you to shreds for that. According to the American Heritage Dictionary, the pertinent definitions of tolerance are:

1. The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others. 2a. Leeway for variation from a standard.

See, for most things in life we can be quite tolerant. SO what if Henrietta makes macaroni & cheese with Velveeta instead of real cheddar like my mom does? However, when it comes to religion it gets dicier. I see no problem tolerating the beliefs of say, deists, who feel that God is real but not really very interested in our daily affairs. Nor do I see a problem tolerating the pantheism of many Wiccans. What I don't have tolerance for is monotheistic, Abrahamic religions that are constantly warring with each other, threaten liberty, or seek to impose their version of God and twisted morality on everyone else, based on the ridiculous notion that their favorite invisible buddy became a writer.

So, in my opinion it's OK to be intolerant of some things, particularly when they threaten human survival and liberty. Otherwise, there's no reason not to be tolerant.

Satan has nothing to do with it. After all, Satan doesn't exist.

muttmutt1978 said...

Spare me youre self righetous garbage, you think you are better than everyone else because youre christian, Ive got news for you, there is more than meets the eye here, and not everyone that comes here is a human, lets just say christianity will come to a complete halt one day and I will be the cause of it, dont try and stop me or you will be run over!

Anonymous said...

j.c. wow what a response a lot of good comments and questions. let me organize my thoughts and try to give a worthy reply. im going to change my posting name from anonymous to one_lost_coin to avoid confusion with others posting as anonymous.

Anonymous said...

j.c...

It seems to me like you are taking this way to seriously...

The bible is a book compiled by men, and written by ancients who did not write the stories at the time of Jesus, but afterward, when legends had been made. Most of the miracles and events that happened were put in there to reflect on the stories of the times. Do you study the works of Homer, Hesiod, Alcaeus, Sappho, Solon, Stesichorus, Vergil, Ovid, and Aesop? You appear to have all the answers, explaining to us what all these holes mean, but the truth is staring you in the face. Religion is nothing more than a cult, created around the time of the Roman Empire and remains today. This holy book is a collection of old jewish folk tales that belong in the halls of history with Homer and Vergil.

steamboat_willey said...

Anony (if you're still around; and please use a name):

Re: Your question about Hume's argument

Hume's argument cuts right through the quarrel over whether the apostles died willingly or martyred themselves as Islamic radicals do. Using his criterion, you look at the supernatural claim itself and decide between:

a) an error or lie by the storyteller is more miraculous than what happens in the story; or
b) an error or lie by the storyteller is less miraculous than what happens in the story

Is there anybody you have ever known whose credibility is so great that you'd believe his/her story of a supernatural event? Does martyrdom really alter the criteria?

A desperate person will say just about anything, and Christians were desperate until Emperor Constantine realized they were literate and could help his government function.

It's doubtful that Jesus even had a tomb, let alone that he came walking out of it three days after dying from blood loss and shock. Stories told to that effect by desperate outsiders from society are utterly dismissable using Hume's criterion of accepting the lesser miracle (someone was wrong -- unintentionally or deliberately, it doesn't matter which).

Anonymous said...

J.C. Samuelson, as far as reliability of transmission for thousands of years it was being spoken written and copied with a consistancy that astonishes everyone. studies have been done with cultures that transmit there history through story and the results are impressive. there culture was not like ours we seem to have given up that ability and rely more on written memory im told its possible to redevelope it. my wife is a secretary who transmits other people thought regulary and accurately even when she has to tidy up the grammar it never alters the message. it must work she keeps her job.

Anonymous said...

concerning using mark as a source i read that like backup singers in a band they color the melody by echoing, adding more information to, even by contrasting the words of to better bring out the lyrics. they sell something called a parrellel bible that places similar narratives side by side to take advantage of similarities and differenes to better understand the meaning. you seem sympathetic to john i imagine because you share a similar visual way of processing the world but i could be wrong anyway john points out i think the reason why a entire account isnt given of Jesus life John (20:30) Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. (20:31) But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. they had very different motivations that we can all agree.

Anonymous said...

a miracle is an event whose only adequate explaination is the extrordinary and direct intervention of God. strange occurances without a religous context are not miracles. if frogs fell from the sky it wouldnt be a mircle but if a holy man said as a sign of God judgement upon our sinfullness frogs are going to fall from the sky well that would be. miracles require context and i think the context is the point and the miracle may help make it. if Jesus heals a mans hand on the sabboth the point would be He is God and wishes to do so. those that were there werent impressed and even began to plan to kill him. whether the miracle is believed or not may or may not help us believe the point He claimed to be God. i do believe people who have told me a miracle they saw helped them believe the difference believing has made in their life tells me their witness is credible.

Anonymous said...

the hume test seems flawed but i will reserve comment till have had time to understand how if i dont believe what someone says then i can believe them but then i cant because the things they say arent true. again their situation is only desperate because they refused to deny their belief. pliny who was some kind of roman authority writes that when christians were brought to court all they had to do was worship a statue of ceaser and they would be let go. some did worship ceasar. some died because they didnt. again its only proof of a commitment. which is why i brought it up to start like the writters of the gospels this wasnt some kind of split second decission or glimpse but lifelong many saw jesus for years and had time to think about Him. some even tried to trick Him. thats alot difrent then an eyewitness to a bank robbery.

Anonymous said...

Christianity is different than many cults because it is the truth it seeks. i can study aesop socratise plato for the things that they say that are true aesop had alot of good practicle wisdom and wisdom like that is timeless just as the 10 commandments apply today and the good news is still good news today.

webmdave said...

one_lost_coin said: "my wife is a secretary who transmits other people thought regulary and accurately even when she has to tidy up the grammar it never alters the message."

You might want to have her proof your posts.

Anonymous said...

i cant afford a secetary :-) you are stuck with illiterate

webmdave said...

In that case, buy Writing Skills Made Fun: Capitalization, Punctuation & Spelling

It's easy to understand, and if you apply yourself to learning the information between its covers, you just might even stumble into a better paying job one day.

Just a suggestion.

Anonymous said...

One_lost_person said, "blah, blah, blah....and wisdom like that is timeless just as the 10 commandments apply today and the good news is still good news today."


Tell me, one_lost_person, what commandment is this:

"You shall not boil a goat in its mother's milk"


Just wondering where you see the wisdom it that commandment, and how it applies today?

Cheers

Anonymous said...

concerning the goats milk i will look into it. milk comes up a fairly good amount in the bible but i cant say i have thought about it before. i will get back to you.

Anonymous said...

while i work on the milk thing i take it you ask such a question because you accept the 10 commandments aesops fable has relevance for us today and the good news would be good news if it were true

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