I am terribly CONFUSED and afraid

A letter from Kim

I am 51 years old, and was raised as a Protestant. I "converted" to Catholicism when I got married for the second time 22 years ago. I always felt guilty because I didn't get much out of going to mass. A lot of it seemed very redundant. Very recently, I have been questioning my faith. Not a very comfortable feeling. I am terrified to admit that if I don't believe in a higher being, I will for sure be thrown into the fires of Hell!

I am terribly CONFUSED and afraid. I consider myself a kind and compassionate person (I work as a patient care technician in a Catholic hospital!), and just because I am questioning whether or not God exists doesn't mean I should be condemned for eternity! I don't dare to talk to my husband about these feelings because his faith in God is very strong. I am not saying that I don't believe there is a higher power, but if he/she/they were so loving then why does it seem that life is always such a struggle!!??

Please assure me that my frightful feeling about going to Hell will subside.

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216 comments:

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Anonymous said...

Kim-
So many of us here have been right where you are. In my experience the fear did subside, in fact, the fear of hell doesn't exist for me anymore. The fear you have is caused by the indoctrination you went through as a child. It is hard to shake, but the more you think and learn and grow you will continue to see how ridiculous the doctrine of hell is. Hang in there and keep coming here for support. As I was told when I began this journey, "it will get better," and it does.

speck said...

Kim,
The more you study and think, the deeper the understanding will be that these teachings (about god) are simply not true. It's gonna be OK.

Emanuel Goldstein said...

Kim,

I sympathize, but you need to be a realist in the brutal world.

The fact is, whether you have a fear of hell or not is irrelevant.

Many things exist that people are not afraid of. Many people have illnessess that will kill them shortly, and they don't even know it.

We have to face the fact that the universe may not be the way we like it to be.

Hell may in fact exist. The fact that we don't like the idea or don't want to be afraid of it is irrelevant.

You might dispense with the idea, lose all concern, and have a wonderful life.

But hell would still be waiting, in the end.

Face it, whether you like it or not.

Jeff Eyges said...

Andrew, you're a piece of shit.

Dave, I realize that you probably feel it's good to have these imbeciles hanging around so that you can show others how easy it is to refute them. And some of you may enjoy beating them up, as compensation for what you all went through (and I'm not saying for a moment that you aren't entitled), but this woman is in need of real help, and he's just feeding her fears. I wonder also how many people like her lurk without posting or commenting, and are swayed by the rantings of people like Andrew, Refractor, dogeat, etc.

I'm certainly not telling you how to run your blog, but I think you may want to consider blocking these people just as soon as they show up. In the meantime, I 'd definitely delete Andrew's comment and block any further ones.

CarlK said...

Kim,

You are confused and afraid, and I don't blame you. You cannot be otherwise until you resolve the struggle between your fear of hell and reality as you perceive it.

Us ex-christians have resolved the struggle in favor of reality. We know, for a whole lot of reasons, that hell is an invention designed to force us into, for lack of a better word, conformity.

What God of all humanity consigns 3/4 of all persons on this earth to hell for approximately the reason that they have never heard of God?

The alternate answer is simply that there is no God, and there is no hell. That is the obvious answer to most of us on this list, however we came to that answer.

Only you can resolve your confusions and fears, but we will support you. Keep in touch with us about your progress.

And best wishes to you.

webmdave said...

Cipher,

The ">forums section of this site provide a more controlled discussion environment for exactly the reasons you stated.

This blog is more-or-less the front door to the site, and frankly, the more these people post, the more insane their rantings come off.

The effect that fundamentalist Christianity has on a person's personality is truly no different than what happens to the fanatical Muslim. While they preach their loving GOD who threatens horrific torment in hell, they illustrate the insanity that is Christianity.

Anyone who de-converts will be facing much more vitriolic resistance in our culture than that experienced on this website. Anyone who really wants to escape the mind control of Christianity might as well get used to it. There is no minority more hated than the minority that does not believe in the majority religion.

speck said...

To Kim and Andrew,
May I suggest that both of you do some research on the origins of Christianity. An honest inquiry would be a good start to understanding the facts regarding the questions about the doctrine of hell.

Jeff Eyges said...

I'm just concerned that she may focus on what he says. And it won't be long before Refractor/Marc and dogeat notice this thread, then they'll go to town on her.

I hope that a lot of others will chime in to support her. I was never a Christian, so I don't know what to say; I don't feel qualified. I like to come here, because, frankly, I think these lunatics are treated with too much civility on other sites, such as de-conversion, and even Loftus' blog. There's far too much acceptance of these people and their antics in this culture, and everyone is scared to death of them. I like to see you guys sticking it to the fundies. It's a guilty pleasure.

(Well, actually - I don't feel guilty at all. It's just a pleasure!)

muttmutt said...

Morpheus: The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.


I grew up catholic, and protestant I learned about its history. Here is something to think about: If God would throw you in hell for not worshipping him/her then that God is an egotistical tyrant. I would rather live my live as an Agnostic than make that type of commitment to a tyrant. (What kind of weak minded fool worships anyways? Like lenny bruce says: think for yourself, question authority) some of the greatest minds of all time are NOT christian or muslim, think about that for awhile

eejay said...

Kim, I think you need to get into the forums and do some readin there. There is a section on FAQ and one specifically addresses the fear of hell. Some of the material there os VERY comforting. Like many deconverts the fear of hell for me was very real, but once you understand how and why x-tianity uses this as a tool to keep you bonded, you do begin to let go of that fear. If you can continue to educate yourself I have no doubt that you will realize how out of kilter x-tianity really is. Most of the people on this site will support you, and there are forums that x-tians are not allowed on. Please explore those options and like many of the previous posters said, things will get better.

webmdave said...

The problem faced by skeptics who deign to discuss religion with believing Christians is that the skeptic feels the need to come at the subject from an evidential position while the Christian feels compelled to approach the issue from an emotional angle.

Emotional and rational typically don't mix well.

In my opinion, there is little chance of getting through to many Christians by using logic or rational presentation of material. Many Christians are so addicted to the emotional high that religion can afford that no amount of logic, evidence, facts, figures, etc., will make a dent. Therefore, I think a good emotional knock-down-drag-out can quite often do more good than pages of well presented material.

Notice if you will that the Christians rarely if ever post on articles that are logical and well written. They choose instead to post on personal testimonial type articles which contain more emotion.

Religious people seem to make decisions based on emotion and tend to see things through an emotional lens. Therefore, they haunt the emotional posts, like this one, and ignore the more intellectual discussions.

They are addicted to the emotional rush, and that's why they come here. They think they are spreading the good news, but really it's the emotional high they are seeking. And since they only respond to emotion, and only know how to make emotional appeals, it is our challenge to couch reality in emotion so they can comprehend what is being said. Approaching these believers from only a position of logic is, I believe, ineffective.

I'm not saying all Christians fit this right-brain-hemisphere mold, but many of the Christians who troll this site seem to fit the description.

Anyway, when a person is finally able to engage the left hemisphere of the brain in a more honest fashion, that same person will shed the fears imparted by fantasy and "belief."

Anonymous said...

Kim,all i say to you is that take it one step at a time>For some people It may take Months < even Years To get Over Thier Fear Of This Made Up Place Called Hell.but with Time you will come to understand that it was created as a way to Controll people and keep Order..Nothing like Fear To keep People In Line.

Cipher, Like you i don't like the nonsense that seems to always come from Andrew,But he as the right like any of us state his point of view, Like the saying Goes. i May Not like what you have to say, But i will defend your right to say it with my life.

To Andrew ..That is One sad little world you live in..We only live once.. so instead of living a live of Fear, Go out and enjoy this Great World Of ours

speck said...

Kim,
Keep asking yourself these tough questions.

"..Very recently, I have been questioning my faith. Not a very comfortable feeling. I am terrified to admit that if I don't believe in a higher being, I will for sure be thrown into the fires of Hell!..."

It IS very painful and terrifying at first. Especially when the people around you fail to agree with your conclusions. You have the the responsibility and intelligence to think for yourself. Don't allow fear to control your life. You deserve better.

Stephen_Richard_Webb said...

Just remember that hellfire is merely a tool to enforce conformity. No one knows what hell is, because it is incomprehensible - that is, it is never to be comprehended or realized by anyone. If you believe in an all loveing, omnibenevolent, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent god, then there is no place for evil or even hell anywhere at all. Hell, and evil are not more than an illusion enforced by cruel men who only seek power over the masses - in death, perfect peace is realized because we return to our first nature, we return to the source from whcih all things come, and that is perfect peace profound. There is no hell, there is only peace after life.

Christopher Jones said...

Kim,

Parental and societal indoctrination with all this fear of god and accordance, less I face "his wrath," was attempted upon me (and most of us here), but the message always seemed very askew to me from the onset, so I cannot speak directly of your fear of hell, but I did flush away fear of demons which was so heavily pushed on me.

Be clear that fear (emotionalism) can be easily overcome with knowledge. Lack of knowledge (fear of the unknown - and fear of idealogical deities and their wrath) can cause plenty of internal issues. Educating yourself on the origins of these falsities will help cleanse those anxieties.

There are many documentaries on the topic that have been shown on History Channel, Discovery, National Geographic and more, and their online stores can provide you with said products. Also, there are many educational websites that delve into this area.

"Hell" was merely a term used to refer to a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem, meaning death and no more. They would set this afire each night to cleanse the stench. Many scholars kid how they've been to hell. No big deal. The original Jewish (Hebrew) meaning was only grave - death, but not a fiery, tormenting place.

The hellfire promoted by the church was not cast until the 15th century when church leaders used this to scare people into staying into the faith. They took and used the fiery aspect as a scare tool to keep retention of the populace. They even conjured up a halfway house, "Purgatory," as to provide levels of prep and achievement. Quite silly.

The book of Revelation (a more vivid recap of the book of Daniel), was merely to ventilate the early Christian detest with Rome, the beast. The term "666," was the numerical equivalent to Nero, regarded at the time as the antichrist, the devil. But of course, none of this is true. Ever, since, foolishly, there has never been a Christian generation that did not feel that the end times that Jesus spoke of was in their time, when in fact, Jesus was referring to his own time, hoping for a revolt against Rome, which cost him his life. (Plenty of information available on all this.)

This is just scraping the surface, but the point is that there was never a hell to fear. The whole thing is a sham. Like others have said here, the more you learn, and the more you program your mind to digest rational, evidential information, and truly discard the emotional aspect of how you were/are programmed, all that fear will assuredly subside.

You will see this.

There is nothing coming to you for your disbelief. No one is going to harm you for this - ever. The ONLY ones talking of harm to you are the very ones that claim they have a message of unconditional love and understanding, ironically. Does this seem logical? Think about this.

Research the origins of the hell stories and the motives of those promoting them, and you will quickly overcome all fear. I promise.

speck said...

Christopher,
Great "snapshot" of the hell doctrine!

Understanding the beginnings of these crazy teachings is what broke the grip of fear that kept me chained to my Catholic childhood fears.

Steven Bently said...

Andrew said, "Hell may in fact exist." May? In fact? Exist?

There may well be in fact Androids on Jupitor ready to come here to suck our brains out because we do not believe and worship their god.

An invisible hell; created by a god that no one has ever seen, a lake of fire that no one has ever seen, told to have existed by a resurrected dead man that no one has ever seen, to burn invisible souls that no one has ever seen.

Andrew what are the possibilities of "may exist" 1 in 1 billion, 1 in 1 trillion of a hell may exist?

Kim don't worry, a fire has no effect on invisible things, an invisible soul cannot feel pain, cannot see, nor hear, even if such a thing could exist.

A fire is a physical thing, which cannot have an effect on metaphysical things. The reason they invented hell is to scare people is because we can feel the heat of fire, we know that fire can hurt us, but when we die, there is no more feelings, pain, fear, no more nothing, because our physical bodys and brain no longer functions, it's just a total blank, complete nothingness, we become like we were before we were born, can you remember before you were born, no because your brain did not exist.

To believe what people wrote down on papyrus over 2000 years ago, like Andrew, they thought the world was flat, and that the heart was the center of all thought and emotions, the word brain is nowhere in the bye-bull, why did not the creator know about the brain? Because they just wrote down what they believed and heard to be true, they never wrote down what they knew to be true, because they were ignorant barbarians.

Andrew is pretending to believe that a snake once had vocal cords, and donkeys can talk, and a burning bush can talk, that the world is flat, flying chariots, winged horsemen, and the heart has eyes, lips, and ears, the heart can become hard and soft invisible beings and demons and an invisible Satan that wears a red suit and has a pointed tail is in control of our minds. To Andrew, these things may exist, or they may not according to him, he don't know he's guessing and hoping and wishing it's true.

The buy-bull is the doctrine of sick demented minds, we have absolutely no way of knowing what the mental state of those people who wrote the bull-shit 2000 years ago, the holy spirit may be a stick of hashish laced with opium or LSD.

Andrew and all other self-professed Jebus idiots are just parroting nonsense that they choose and pretend to believe from a book that was brought over here by the early settlers, the voyage was such a strenuous trip that the only insurance they had was a buy-bull, and the American people have been told that the Bible is the absolute truth and contains all the truth and wisdom and knowledge available to human kind, but everyone's common sense automatically knows this is not true, that's why the doctrine has to be re-enforced constantly every Sunday, to re-state and remind people of the lie that they are trying to believe is true.

Truth stands alone, truth does not need to be re-enforced with threats of a hell fire and a reward for the believers.

Kim follow your own common sense and intellectual honesty, common sense and honesty is nowhere to be found in the bye-bull, that's the reason you're here, the wool can only be pulled over one's eyes for so long and your common sense is telling you this.

Kim, listen to Kim.

ryan said...

I really should not be coming here so often. Reading some of this shit is a danger to my emotional well-being.

I am, of course, talking about andrew's post. What a good xristian he is. So full of jewzoo's love.

andrew, we have a woman coming in here, hurting inside, and all you can do is preach your despicable filth; your mindless jew-superstition. And you call yourself a man? HMMM? You are a miserable excuse for a man. My honest suggestion is for you to consider transsexual surgery. Try again as a girl--you fucked up as a boy.

I began to live when I turned my back on vermin like you. We all did. I have loaded better shit than you into a John Deere manure spreader.

And Kim........the fear subsides. Yes. Maggots like andrew have one intention, and that is to keep you on your knees, where they are.

Most of us are in here because we shared, to varying degress, your experience in the churches. We looked for help and got religion. Right. From assholes like andrew.

And I share ciper's sentiments. I wish the WM would delete this scum and send him back to his store-front snake handlers.

And Kim, I am 60 years old, and just wise as hell. Once I calm down, I will assert that it is good to come here and talk and share. You just have to endure losers like andrew.

Steven Bently said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
KCinBAMA said...

“and just because I am questioning whether or not God exists doesn't mean I should be condemned for eternity!”
EXACTLY! You have hit it on the head! You deserve ANSWERS to your questions, NOT eternal condemnation for simply asking the question!

“I don't dare to talk to my husband about these feelings because his faith in God is very strong.”
WARNING: I would also tread lightly in this area. Once you figure out what you do and don’t believe and why, then, approaching your immediate friends and family is another topic entirely. Read how others here have handled it first.

“I am not saying that I don't believe there is a higher power”
Good, keep and open mind. People can “pretend” to believe, but, you cannot make yourself “believe” anymore than you can make yourself love or hate. Although, you can pretend and fool people, you know yourself whether you do or you don’t. “To thine own self, be true.”

“Please assure me that my frightful feeling about going to Hell will subside.”
My interpretation of John 3:16 reads something like:
For a supernatural being so loved all humans, past, present, and future;
that he gave, for human sacrifice, and only for a 3 day period, his only begotten son;
that whosoever does not believe in him, regardless of His refusal to provide empirical evidence of His existence, not for anything humans have done, but, for the crime of being descended from Adam and "born" into sin;
not simply be killed, but to be subject to excruciating physical pain continuing without interruption forever. (KC version)
As a result of the above, I have concluded that the good God of the Bible does not exist. However, I cannot explain the origin of life or the universe; therefore, a god might have done it. But, I do not believe he interacts with our physical universe in any measureable way leading me to wonder “is god evil” or just apathetic to our plight. It is easier for me to believe in a nonexistent or evil god ahead of a good god. And any god that is not good, is not worthy of my worship.

Steven Bently said...

ryan, that was so funny, I hope you keep coming back. Thanks for the laughs!

Andrew is just like all xtains, and we once were, terribly misinformed.


BTW, Christopher is correct, great comment Chris. Thank you!

Jeff Eyges said...

your mindless jew-superstition

In the interest of fairness - Christianity doesn't really represent a Jewish myth, and hasn't for many centuries. It was based on a Jewish myth, the coming of a messiah - one of a number of ideas prevalent in Judaism at the time - but it went way off track and got paganized very early on. Jewish understanding of the "prophecies" in the OT that supposedly pertain to Jesus are understood VERY differently by Jews.

Unknown said...

I went through something similar about a year ago, nightmares, heavy sweats, constant anxiety. It lasted real strong about three weeks, and gradually subsided over the next month or so and finally disappeared maybe...six months later?

I grew up xtian and am in my twenties though, you've spent a great deal longer in. I think you'll make it out ok though. It really sucks, but it's all going to end eventually even if it takes awhile. There is an end.

jimearl said...

Kim, I join others and say that you will lose your fear of hell as time goes on. I have two sons and I love them very much. If I had any fears that there might be a literal hell, I would never take the chance with my boys. However, both are atheists because they have no fear of hell either. We all live in reality and fantasy and delusions have no control over us. Join us and think for yourself. Cheers, Jim Earl

ryan said...

cipher, believe me, I know what you are saying. But at a personal level, I see no difference between xristianity and judaism. xristianity never let go of the angry jew god. The xristians fiddled around with their new-fangled theological jargon: "atonement; justification; sanctification; predestination" but the jewgod was the same. That was one of the big breaking points for me. I kept getting this lip-service about freedom from the law, only to encounter the same bronze-age war god with his threats and accusations. If any xristian wants to talk to me about his god of love and grace, my response would be that any god I would worship would have nothing against me, never has, and never will. Anything short of this is the same old shit, call it as you will.

Really, the only honest xristian in this world is fred phelps. He insists xristianity is a religion of hate, and I believe him.

And thank you stephen. I am laughing now, but when I posted I could have chewed marble.

Jeff Eyges said...

Ryan,

I agree with your characterization of the Old Testament god, but there is at least one important distinction between Judaism and Christianity - Jews aren't running around threatening everyone else with hell. We've got a few fundamentalists (a minority within a minority), but no one takes them seriously, and they keep pretty much to themselves; other than the occasional exception in New York, they don't get involved in the political process. They aren't trying to take away your civil liberties, because they aren't interested in you (they aren't even really interested in me!).

Anonymous said...

Kim,

The solution is simple. Do you, in your own mind, deserve hell? Have you ever done anything so hideously wrong that you deserve an eternity of torment? Are you positive that no sane judge on the planet would have you tortured for even one lifetime for the actions that you've taken and that you're taking?

Now think about "God," should you still choose to believe in him. A creature of infinite judgement and mercy, who knows your every sin. Would he be more irrational than those judges?

There are only four real purposes of punishment, and only three are legitimate.

1) To rehabilitate. Punishment in some cases is used to show that an action is wrong, and to discourage a person from taking part in that action. With Hell, since you are never let out, there is no rehabilitation.

2) To remove a threat to society. True, Hell removes supposedly "evil" beings from heaven, but annihilation would serve just as well, and without the needless suffering.

3) To deter. To keep others from committing the same crime. This is Hell's supposed use, but then the bible teaches us that we are all sinners, so we can't be detered from sin. Also, in order to be effective as a deterent, we need to see it in action, and Hell takes place on a different plane of existance or something, so we can't see the magnitude of the punishment. Besides, hell is used to deter those who already believe in God, not those who don't. Those who don't believe in Christianity don't believe in Hell either. Teaching about Hell is quite literally preaching to the choir. It is the most useless deterent in existance.

That leaves the fourth reason for punishment- Sadism. God punishes you because he likes to. Now is that the God you know and love? Think about it.

I encourage you NOT to seek answers in the Bible, there aren't any on this issue. Just seek answers in your own mind. Do you deserve hell, and would the God who you love send any living thing to an eternity of torment.

Oh, and Andrew, don't be a dick.

Hellbound Alleee said...

Kim,

You're not the problem. You're not the bad one. And you might even already know that. You probably know where the problems lie. The question you ask has never been adequately answered by the church or by theologians, because it cannot be adequately answered. You're not the first to ask, and you won't be the last. And yet it won't be answered.

Because you know that the faith is "supposed" to make you feel really good, all of the time, and the reward is supposed to be ultimate feeling good. That's pretty much called Hedonism. They give you this "choice:" either love God or go to the eternal suffering God made. Think about it: who created the universe and all of its laws? God. So therefore the rule that people don't love him suffer for all eternity was made by God.

Would you vote for a politician who said, "If you vote for me, you'll be happy and feel good all the time. If you don't, you have to go to this torture chamber I made for these creatures no one has ever seen and can be attributed to natural brain activity in sleep."

Is that a good leader, or is that a cruel monster?

I think you know this one. Could you live with yourself supporting a cruel monster just because it's more comfortable? I suppose you could. It makes more sense than believing in the religion because it frightened you into thinking that you'll be tortured forever.

But really, Kim. A place where dead people come back to life and roll around in a lake of fire? Come on, girl, do you really believe that? Isn't it crazy, just a little bit? Doesn't it sound more like something they believed back in medieval times?

It might be better to not live in fear of nutty things like that, wouldn't it?

Emanuel Goldstein said...

Kim, what makes you think these people care about you? They are miserable haters and they want to see you miserable too.

These liars will try to tell you that all existence, life, mind and reason itself are the product of mindless forces.

If that is the case, then someday the biochemical processes in your meat brain will cease, and that will be the end...of no more consequence to the world that if another bottle of diet coke went flat.

Of course, their views have never been demonstrated, and atheisms pretensions to a scientific superiority are a lie. THE BIG LIE.

The world doesn't care about you, and can't help you if it did.

Your only hope of a future is with the Lord Jesus Christ.

ryan said...

Your point is well taken, cipher. When I use phrases like "jewgod" I am referring to the crazy, bloodthirsty yahweh in the old testament war stories. Whole ethnic groups slaughtered off; men; women; babies; livestock. I am also talking about such stories as the flood: this wierd little devil wasn't getting his ass kissed as often as he pleased, so he went completely nuts and killed everthing on earth, except for a few animals and some proto-jews of dubious worth.

xristians, of course, want to believe that their god is an improvement; that god "loved the world" (john 3:16) Go back to the war stories--when did god start loving the world? At what point in judeo-xristian history did yahweh become a kinder, gentler god? Unless god did a fast personality make-over, he is still that same god. It chills my bones to hear the religious right cheering as god sends Katrina, the Tsunami, and dead American soldiers to punish us.

I would say that hell is going the jewgod one better. And thanks again.

ryan said...

andrew, I thought I caught a whiff of you. Back again?

This will be brief. I don't need a lot of space for this.

Look, jerk, the burden of proof is on you. You say that our side has not been demonstrated. So what? If you are pushing your jew religion, you must assume burden of proof. We need to prove nothing. If you want to think that you have proved your god's existence, fine. Now you have to prove that this god is indeed the one and only jewgod. Lots of luck.

About your third paragraph: this life is all we need. I'm happy with it. If death and non-existence frightens you, that is your problem. That is what keeps your superstition alive. You can't face your sordid life without the jewzoo.

THE ACE said...

KIM: People like Andrew are the
reason you should ditch Christianity. People who are so
determined to control how you think and how you live, and all from an ancient book based on the
lifestyles and superstitions of a
people who have been dead from two
to three thousand years.

Andrew, you call us haters?
The true hater of mankind is the
person who can't stand it unless
everyone lives and believes the
way he does, and will stop at nothing to accomplish that.
Personally, I don't care what you
believe or don't believe, its a free country. No one here is trying to convert you to freedom;
stop making a fool of yourself by
trying to convert others to Christianity.


Kim, the best of luck to you. You might want to check out some of the
books available here at ExChristian.

Spirula said...

(Hmmmm. Smells like ass around here.)
Oh, I see "Be skeered of the boogeyman" bed-wetter Andrew is back with more of his "booga-booga!". What a twit.

Anyway Kim, don't listen to that "eternal BBQ" crap those fundies like to spew. Radical Islam does the same thing, and you can see how destructive it can really be. Both fundy Xians and Muslims use fear to control the masses.

You should also note that meat-sacks like Andrew actually revel in the fantasy of heathens getting torched by his Sky Fairy, mainly because they have only fantasies to live for. Pathetic, evil fantasies. The kind you'd expect sociopaths to have.

You may have noticed that when you reject their mythologies they turn into that snotty little brat on the playground that doesn't get their way and screams "My big brother will beat you up!" before running away like the crybaby they are. All bluster no brains.

So, to WATB's Andrew&Co., just go back to praying to your Zombie-god and your theophagy fetish. It's the only thing you have.

Leave the thinking to the adults.

Sandy said...

Hi Kim : )

I can relate to the fear you speak of. I was riddled with it throughout my entire childhood up through age 19 when the JWs got ahold of me. The one thing they did to help was to alleviate my fear of hellfire by a lengthy study into believing the Bible their way.

Now this was some relief because, as a young child, I had no idea how it was that people did ordinary things like kept a job, ate a meal and did anything outside of sit around and worry about going to hell if that was in fact what could life could potentially hold. I'd ask people, "Do you believe in hell?" and they'd say "Yes" but they'd be off living their lives as if there was no hell up ahead when I thought we should all be quaking in our boots. I used to wish I weren't born for eliminating that horrible fear.

Now the JWs can systematically convince you using "your own copy of the Bible" that hell is something other than a place of permanent torture. And sure, it's great not to believe in a firey hell but as long as you have to believe that Bible is real, you still have to worry about God's anger management issues.

His sense of justice, you have to admit, is a bit scary. He required the Hebrews to make sacrifice of innocent animals to pay for the "sins" of humans. He allowed for multiple wives, 700 for Solomon, but don't hold that ark wrong or you will sorely piss him off! Curtains for you!

The entire old testament is pretty much a story of genocide after genocide to wipe out everything in the path of Israel. They of course had to kill everything male and anything female that had know the act of lying with a maile but of course, it's okay to keep the young virgins for themselves.

There were something like 600 laws that the poor Isrealites had to spend their entire life spans under, including the requirement for two young pigeons or two turtle doves to be sacrificed per woman per that time of the month. One bloody legacy!

Then just think of the Bible stories. One after another shows us a scary personality if we were to believe these are really the position God would take. Look at the story of Abraham and Isaac alone. Here's a man who spent his lifetime faithfully serving God, doing everything in exact obedience to him. He left everything he owned, left his kinfolk, turned down riches, hell, at age 99 he got himself circumcised per God's request. Then after all this show of faith, God needs to "test" Abraham's loyalty and asks him to go and "make please a burnt sacrifice" of his son Isaac? Is "God" insecure of what! Testing, testing, and more testing. I'm not really sure if you love me!

So, "God is love" and does any of that sound like perfect justice we could expect from God? Is it really reasonable that we, as humans, are so much more compassionate and just in our thinking than the divine creator? Or is it possible that all that stuff written in the "bible" is really the work of humans?

ryan said...

Very good, sandy. I would like to ask any fundamentalist--and indeed I have--"Is this the god you worship". This is the jewgod I keep talking about, a mad and vindictive tyrannt.

A fundie will dodge that question by saying that "that was the old covenant, and we live in the new covenant" as though going from the old to the new was like changing lanes on the interstate.

Now just a goddamned minute, says I. The jewgod took his old covenant really seriously. How many people were slaughtered off by the unwashed hordes of israel is beyond imagining. And then, suddenly, "god is love"? My, that was fast, but I want to know that,if god had plans to make a new covenant, why did he kill so many people under the old? When you kill people in the name of your politics or your religion, that is taking it seriously. If it was just going to be replaced, then why all the fuss?

Anonymous said...

Andrew, how dare you belittle our attempts at kindness and compassion.

Here somebody has come here for help, and I know that I at least am attempting to help them with my thoughts and opinions on the issue. You may disagree, but don't you dare claim that I am willingly deceiving or lying to anybody. I am doing no such thing.

Bear7 said...

Hi Kim

The roman catholic 'faith' creates insecurity because there is no assurance of salvation in it; you are a heretic if you believe you are saved. There are millions of people in the rcc trying (busting their gut in fear in many cases) to obtain salvation through the sacraments, prayers and other rituals. Most of them will only get to purgatory anyway...how sad!

Unlike rcc doctrine the Bible assures the believer of salvation and peace with God. It is a free gift from God. The sacrifice of Christ in the mass every week is a blatant error as he was sacrificed only once for the sins of mankind.

Also the rcc church disobey the second commandment because they have ommited it( do not make graven images e.g. statues).

life can be a struggle for us all at times. What you don't need is the crushing weight of guilt from a bogus theology to add to this.

I would recommend the book A Woman rides the Beast by Dave Hunt. This is an exilarating read yet quite heavy.

Keep asking questions and searching.

Cheers

speck said...

Hey Blandrew,

Your too late buttwad. This person (Kim)has a fully engaged brain and the will to use it.

You should try it some time.

speck said...

It sounds like Bear7 has got some of that real-true-correct-and oh so fuzzy and warm religion.

'Jesuslight' still sends you to eternal hell. 70 years here, and ETERNITY in hell.

(I'm with WM Dave on this one); Get use to it, Kim. The world is steeped in this crap and in every variety imaginable. BUT it's getting better for those who will think and learn.

Tara said...

Kim,

It WILL get better. I realized I was an atheist at the age of 11 or 12. If a child can make it through such a difficult time, an adult with all of your adult resources certainly can!

Once I accepted that there was no god, it was easy to accept that there was no devil. And knowing that the hell I was raised with (the "Catholic" hell) was created out of thin air hundreds of years after Jesus supposedly walked the Earth, well, it was the next logical step to accept that hell wasn't real, either.

Imagine a life with no fear of the afterlife. There is only this life and the need to do good in this life. Not for some reward in the afterlife, but for reward in THIS life. I do good because it's good for me and good for those I care about. My rewards are immediate.

And when I die? It will be just like before I lived. Where is the fear in that? There is no fear of what I will not be aware of.

Spirula said...

Yeah! Bear7 finally steps up to the plate to deliver the "No True Scotsman" speech.

Thanks Bear7. It's nice hear about this wonderful gift that, if you turn down, your pissy god will set you on fire and burn for fucking ever.

I'm sure you could tell by the name of the site that we probably never heard that sermon before.

CinemaNet said...

Kim:

I don't feel that I can add anything to the comments regarding the emotional impact of questioning/leaving Christianity, but I will say anyway that when I read the Bible (three times, front to back) and came face to face with the concept that I would be punished for asking questions, I was at first confused and afraid, and then very, very, VERY angry. To this day the prospect of Hell does not frighten me one bit - it only serves to fill me with rage. I could list many poetic metaphors to describe this fury (ten-thousand suns, a darkness which no light can penetrate, a bottomless abyss in and endless wasteland at the beginning and the end of all creation), but suffice it to say that it gets my knickers in a twist. Religion is an emotional experience, devoid of logic and reason. Humans are the only part of the natural world that enslaves itself to this notion. By the same token, we are the only ones that can free ourselves from it.

I think of Hell sometimes. I still get angry over it. But, Kim, I want to ask you something: have you done any studying into Biblical contradictions? You may have already; i have no way of knowing. If hou haven't, there are MANY resources on the Internet concerning Biblical contradictions.

Just a few:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

http://ffrf.org/books/lfif/?t=contra

http://www.atheists.org/christianity/contradictions.html

Think about it this way, Kim: if the Bible is wrong in one area, it can be wrong in another. If the Bible contradicts itself even ONCE, then it is not absolute. There are many apologetics out there that will clim they have an answer to these contradictions. Once you have examined the contradictions, and examine these so-called "answers" to them, you will see that the "answers" are, to be blunt here, full of crap. So we come full circle:

1. If there are contradictions in the Bible (which there are), we see that the Bible is not absolute.

2. If the Bible is not absolute, then how can its claim of a Hell be trusted?

I have been in a great many arguments with apologetics. In the end, the apologetic will rely on two strategies. First, they will tell you that their faith is not shaken even though you have pointed out a contradiction that they cannot answer, a vain attempt to anger your efforts to illustrate the contradiction and prove the believer wrong, and then tell you that they are sure God will answer it in time. Never mind that the apologetic has already claimed that the Bible HAS no contradictions - they will still rely on the EMOTIONAL impact of bringing up God.

Most apologetics will simply remind you that you are going to Hell.

How CONVENIENT.

But like I said, Kim, if you haven't already, you should look up Biblical contradictions. Either the Bible is wrong or God is lying, and such a being is not worthy of worship. Keep asking questions, keep studying, keep opening your mind, and your fear of Hell will subside.

P.S. I am hoping to become a male nurse myself :)

Anonymous said...

Kim,
Don't listen to Andrew. He's an idiot.

Like you,I was brainwashed as a child in the Christian religion until I bailed at the age of 19. I am now 47.

I have mostly recovered from the insane indoctrination of the fear of Hell, but not entirely. Every once in a while, a little gnawing in the back of my brain says, "What if it's true?"

What Webmaster said about the intellectual/emotional aspect of religion is quite true. What I have found is the best way to overcome the fear of hell is to feed my intellect and not feed my fear.

If you study the history and mythology of the time of the alleged Jesus, as well as engage in a textual analysis of the new Testament, you will find that Jesus never existed.

It was all a hoax by the second century church leaders.
The gospels are fictions and the epistles are apocryphal ramblings by preachers who were in it for the money. (How many times in the epistles does Paul remind his churches to take a collection for him?)

The Christian church was invented to control peoples' minds and soak them of their cash - and they've been doing it for 2000 years.

Run, don't walk, away from the Christian faith.

Here are some books to get you started:

"The Jesus Puzzle" by Earl Doherty

"Jesus Never Existed" by Kenneth Humphreys

Astreja said...

Kim, any gods worthy of the name would simply not bother with something as idiotic, barbaric and patently unlikely as Hell.

Any gods worthy of the name would actively welcome critical thinking and be proud of their 'kids' for finally growing beyond the reach of controlling, fear-mongering tyrants.

Yes, the fear does go away in time. Trust in your own goodness and be reassured by the love you experience in your day-to-day life.

sconnor said...

Hi Kim,

I have much empathy for you and I wish you all the best in your search.
Allow me to ease your heart, and put to rest your fears, of hell.

Christianity only encompasses 33% of the worlds population.
Of that percentage some of the christian sects and denominations do not adhere to the fire and brimstone doctrine of hell -- some don't even believe in hell, anymore.
That leaves the rest of the world; around 70% of people who do not believe In Jesus, they don't believe in being saved by Jesus, and do not believe in the christian or catholic doctrine of hell.They are comprised of other religions and the non-religious.

You have to ask yourself this very important question:
Why would god -- a god of love and mercy -- create his other 70% of earthly children, only to sadistically, torture them in the fires of hell, for an eternity, because they did not adhere to some archaic christian or catholic doctrine?

That would be the other 4.6 billion, of gods, earthly children, supposedly, destined to hell. This only encapsulates this moment, in time. Think of all the cultures, tribes, civilizations, throughout time, that did not adhere to the doctrine of being saved, from hell, by Jesus or christianity.

Is it even conceivable that a god of love and mercy would create, and then, cast the trillions of his earthly children, who do not believe in the doctrines of salvation, into hell? Can you imagine, all the people, families, poor lost souls -- all their hopes, loves, dreams, dashed to the everlasting fires of hell, because they did not think a certain way?

Think about it, and watch your worries melt away.

--S.

Major Religion Pie Chart
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

Lance said...

Hi Kim,
Here is how I came to me lose my fear of hell.

It was when I realized that I could stand before a "good" god on judgment day and say that I could not believe in Christianity because I could not believe that god was as much of a jerk as the the Christians/Jews/Muslims said he was. I realized that I was giving god the benefit of the doubt, and a good god would not toss me into hell just for thinking he couldn't be as bad as they said.

I could not fathom a god saying "You were wrong! I really am a jerk! I really am a neurotic mess that pretends not to exist, but still really needs your worship."

I could more easily imagine a god saying something like this to the religious folks: "What kind of a jerk did you think I was, and why would you think that?" To which the fundamentalist would say something like "Well, it was in the book." To which god would respond with "What made you think I wrote that thing? It makes me look like a complete asshole. Come on, I gave you a brain. Why didn't you use it?"

Good luck on your quest.

Peace.

-Lance

Jacstar said...

Hi Kim,
Don't worry, you can overcome the fear! It took me a very long time to finally get up the guts to leave christianity because I was so afraid of hell. I finally came to my senses abut 6 months ago, and I don't fear anymore. The god of the bible is meant to be a god of "unconditional love"...this directly contradicts with a god that sends people to hell. Just keep thinking logically.
Good Luck!
ps- Andrew you are a fuckwit!

buffettphan said...

Kim,

I really can't add any advice that hasn't already been so eloquently stated by our fellow ex-c's. But I sure can relate to what you're saying and feeling. I was raised catholic. But I guess I wasn't a "True Catholic" since I lapsed at such an early age. ha-ha. From the time I first heard that buybull story of god demanding that Abraham sacrifice his son Isaac, I began questioning. First my parents..."You wouldn't KILL me would you? Or make be think you were gonna kill me?" Of course not! What sane, loving parent would even THINK of doing such a horrible thing to their young child? I questioned my aunts and uncles (those were my cousins they might kill, afterall!) ....I questioned the teachers in sunday school...I questioned the teachers in my catholic school... NEVER did I get a satisfactory answer. I concluded that if HUMAN parents behaved better than the almighty gawd parent, god was not good. Before long I figured if god was so bad, he shouldn't be worshipped. And if god is so bad, he shouldn't even exist. Hey--that's it--god doesn't exist! Fast forward many years--I married a non-practicing catholic. Perfect I thought. Well......not so perfect. After 2 kids and a dozen or so years of marriage, my husband "got converted" by some fundies at his work. Needless to say, there have been some rocky times....and lots of heated discussions which I won't go into now. There are quite a few of us here on ex-c.net whose spouse is still shackled in the hoax of christianity, so definately you are not alone! Keep researching and using your brain. The buybull disproves itself, as does history. When you get scared, remember that's an emotional response to years of indoctrination. Come back to ex-c for support. And, oh for now, ignore the idiot assholes like Andrew, Marc, Bear, etc. In a while, you'll be incensed by their mean arrogance. Soon after, you'll find yourself laughing at them. And one day, you might even feel a bit of pity for them...... ;-) Enjoy life!

--buffettphan

Emanuel Goldstein said...

Kim, these people are right...it will get better.

After all, you put your conversion in quotes and said the services never meant that much to you anyway, indicating that you weren't that sincere to begin with.

So it won't be that hard to get over your fear.

That, of course, has NOTHING to do with the existence of hell.

Yes, that is another story indeed.

Jeff Eyges said...

Andrew, I hope sincerely that one of these days, you shoot off your mouth to someone who has no compunction about beating the shit out of you.

Perhaps it would be best if you just stayed in your parents' basement, little man.

Emanuel Goldstein said...

In other words, Cipher, you have no answer.

And you are worried too, aren't you?

But as to your wish, its already been tried.

It failed.

speck said...

Andrew said...

...that is another "story" indeed.....

Indeed it is.

ryan said...

andrew, go take a bath.

And now I wish to make a few comments about bear 7. I will not comment directly--I am not feeling well this morning and my stomach wouldn't take it. It does, however, amuse me that fundies are still nursing their anti-papist issues.

I am a graduate of a tough little catholic school; St Joseph's, Rensselaer IN; class of '03. I continue to take classes as an auditor. I do not know what experience bear has had with catholics, but young modern catholics do not give a rabbit's ass about church doctrine; church tradition; canon law.

Just as a casual example, nobody observes ash wednesday. All foreheads are clean.

Modern catholics are into such things as peace; justice; economic reform; education; health care. They do not drible their drivel about "my saviour this and my saviour that and I have accepted jesus christ as my personal lord and saviour". They are living decent lives and care about their fellow man.

About this "assurance of salvation" bear mentioned: Catholics do not need some experience of "assurance" That is a protestant thing. Protestants are pitifully insecure and need to "feel saved". Catholics have no such insecurity. And they sure as hell are not "busting their gut in fear".

And there are no graven images in the St Joe chapel. They got rid of those years ago. bear is living in the past.

Just one more little thing. There is an organization called "Locks of Love". These people go about the country asking women to donate their hair to make wigs for chemotherapy patients. One of their stops is here at St Joe--lots of young women give up their beautiful long hair for the sake of strangers they will never meet. Show me a fundie woman who will do that.

ryan said...

oh shit, this is funny. andrew's post came in ahead of mine. andrew is striking a macho pose!!!! This is too good to be true.

So somebody tried to knock his lights out and failed? WOW. andrew must be one bad sonofabitch. Reading the old testament does that to you. All those stories about killing babies and making off with the virgins. Yup, we don't wanna fuck with andrew.

Franciscan Monkey said...

Kim,

Getting over the fear of hell varies with each person. For me personally, the fear went away immediately upon deconversion. I realized that the Bible was just written by ignorant men, and that Christianity had no basis in reality.

Andrew has a point, in that whether or not we believe in or fear hell has no bearing on whether it exists. Fortunately for you, there is not one iota of evidence for an actual hell, Christian, Muslim, or otherwise, and the concept of hell doesn't even make logical sense.

The doctrine of hell is used by various religions as a way of controlling its adherents. It was used to control you, and it is still controlling Andrew and billions of others. Just look at it rationally, Kim, and you will stop fearing that which does not exist.

Respectfully,
Franciscan Monkey

speck said...

Hi ryan.

You state: "....Catholics have no such insecurity. And they sure as hell are not "busting their gut in fear"....

Apparently our friend Kim is in the "wrong" Catholic church....?

Where will she find the "new and improved" model?

ryan said...

If you will re-read my post, you will see that I have been talking about "young, modern catholics". My use of the word "catholic" was a careless generalization.

And about Kim: my advice to her would be to seek out a campus parish and give it a try; that is, if she still wants to maintain some sort of faith or devotion.

Anonymous said...

Hey,
I just want to encourage you. Fear is not uncommon and it usually comes when we don't understand things. Confusion brings fear. There are lots of things in our lives that confuse us, just because life isn't simple anymore.

There is one thing that is simple: that is God. You say that you've changed from Protestant to Catholic, lol, I changed from Catholic to Christian-meaning I follow Christ. I want to encourage you and tell you that religion and theology try to explain and express faith, just as a songwriter expresses they way you feel through a song. You had the emotions, but he was gifted with the ability to provide the words.

These things aren't faith and they tend to confuse and complicate things for us. This is what brings the fear; when we don't understand. I've been in that position too. The Word says: "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints" (1 Corinthians 14:33).

Confusion comes from everywhere else but God. We look at the world today and say where is God. He is here, but where are we? We are apart from him, seperated from Love and dwelling in sin. Hell was not meant for us. He created us to be perfect and in his likeness.

When you think of prefection, do you think of pain, sorrow, death, and fear, or do you think of peace, joy, patience and love.

Remember that God is Love. Fear is a device to pull you away from his Love. It is being used against you. Just Remember: "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear..." (1 John 4:18)

God, being perfect in his love, is the only thing that can cast out that fear. Not religion. Not the answers that the world provides. This is between you and God. He wants you to come to him to find peace. He's paid to much for you to ever let you be lost.

Be Blessed and Have Peace in Jesus Name,
Love,
Liz

ryan said...

This might be mildly amusing: andrew is, I suspect, our old friend emmanuel goldstein, aka "goldy".

Compare the following two posts: "The Good, The Bad and The Ugly"; dated 9/23/06; post 9/24 signed emmanuel goldstein.

"Happy Friday" dated 3/14/08; post 3/16 signed andrew.

The wording is practically identical.

It wasn't hard to find you, goldy. You have a stench that can't be forgotten.

Dave8 said...

What does “any” religion provide, that a completely secular life can’t?

ryan said...

Liz, you have been polite, I must grant you that. Most of the xristians we get in here are walking, talking pricks.

About living without fear: I am doing that. I lay my head on my pillow at night and if I never wake up, that is fine. I do not fear death. There is no hell to fear, nor heaven to gain.

And you have said that religion is not the answer. You also said that it is all between you and god. That sounds fine, but do you still believe in hell, and that many people will go there? If there is a yes to both questions, then you still have a religion, try to sweeten it up all you want.

It reminds me of these people who say that they have a relationship, not a religion. I have asked them what happens when I die without that relationship, and the silence is deafening.

Liz, many xristians are keen to assure us that they have something different; something we never tried or even heard of, and then they proceed to preach the same old shit; the shit we heard until it came out of our ears.

So go ahead and answer: are we here at x xristian going to hell? Religious people say we are.

And thank you again for your soft-spoken courtesy.

jimearl said...

Dave8 asked a very good question:

What does “any” religion provide, that a completely secular life can’t?

I believe I can answer this: absolutely nothing but delusions taken as truth.

speck said...

Ryan,

I could not be more confused as to what in the hell you are talking about.

One side of your mouth says; YAY for the Catholics! But then the other side of your mouth says; That goddamn church...!

So are you giving an endorsement to a "new catholosism / social gospel"? or what.....?

Hells Bells said...

Liz wrote "This is what brings the fear; when we don't understand." Well, lack of understanding does lead to fear. I don't argue that point. However, there were so many points about Christianity that beggared explanation and understanding, it wasn't surprising that Christians and churches are where I now realise most fear resides.

Christians are afraid of me (as a trans-woman) because they don't understand - in the same way that yobs and thugs are. However, non-Christians seem to be rarely afraid of me because they realise that I'm nothing to be afraid of.

I've seen that first-hand again today, when meeting a "passionate" Christian who had been a good friend for 20 years or so, but who couldn't cope with my transition, not because I had turned into some kind of monster, but because he was afraid. It's the first time I'd met him in 5 years - and he was still afraid.

Christianity breeds fear, because it's natural to have some fear of the unknown, and what Christian claims to "know god fully"?

jimearl said...

God, being perfect in his love, is the only thing that can cast out that fear.

Uh, Liz, I am living proof that the above statement is false. I don't believe in any gods and I have no fear of any religious spirits, holy or otherwise. I only have fear of religious people that listen to what their "god" tells them. You know, people like Bush, Osama bin Laden and the like.

RubyHypatia said...

I used to be afraid of hell also. But the more I study my Bible, the more ridiculous it seems. I as a mother couldn't send my child to hell for any reason. How could a perfect being do this?

Steven is right in that the biblical writers didn't know the significance of the brain. They thought the kidneys, along with the heart, was responsible for thoughts and feelings. And they thought the world was flat.

Kim, just study your Bible. You can e-mail me at RubyHypatia@aol.com if you have any questions.

Grape Ape said...

Kim- You said you just RECENTLY started to question. So give it some time. Do what I did. Start reading anything you can get your hands on that is critical of christianity and pray like crazy. Eventully you wil end up like I did. My face in the dirt talking to myself. It is quite humiliating. Disregard all the christian comments, they have to much pride to admit they have been duped. Just take into consideration when speaking with a christian just HOW much that individual may have invested into it. You will lose loved ones over this. BE very careful how you talk about this with your hubby, it can be devastating. Always remember you are dealing with brainwashing. Expect a lot of hostility. Some find it easier to keep it to themselves..Unfortuntly. Visit the Secular web, and go to their library. It is the BEST source I have found yet. ALso the sceptics annotated bible, is a lot of fun too. Good luck to you, you are gonna need it. :)

freethinker05 said...

Kim, I would like for you to look on the internet and find, Robert G. Ingersoll if/and when you get a chance. Read some of his stories about his being Agnostic/Atheist.

As a man, some of his "Great Historical Writings" stories have brought alot of tears to my eyes. Also look up,(Evil Bible.com) Yours in REALITY, Roger...A/A

fastestmanalive said...

Kim,
I was in your shoes a little while back and i can say the fear and pain you're going through DO get better with time as notabarbie said and as with any emotional scar you acquire. I still do have a teenie bit of fear about things, but what i can say is that it has gotten so much better in the months that i have educated myself on how Christianity formed and what happened in the early years of its existence. Perhaps buying books, talking on online forums, and listening to podcasts will help, as they did with me. Its a slow and gradual process much like breaking up with someone in a long serious relationship, and I'm sure you will feel better as you stick it out and try not to doubt yourself. Also, don't listen to the Christians who post here. They obviously cannot sympathize or understand the pain your going through. take care

Emanuel Goldstein said...

IN time you will feel better.

But you are still going to die in the end.

And you can tell yourself its nothing to worry about, and keep telling yourself that, but deep down you know its not true.

Jacstar said...

Actually Andrew, when we were christians, deep down we knew it wasn't true....That's why we're not christian anymore! I think most good-hearted people on earth know, deep down, that hell can't possibly be true.

Dave8 said...

Andrew, you can only fear what you know; do tell, have you ever died?

No, I thought not, so... what is there to be afraid of again? Your words? I think not.

TheJaytheist said...

Actually, I thought hell was real when I was a christian. I believed it like I believed in the rest of the christian myth. Not out of fear, but out of an overwhelming sense of purpose and a need for there to be a loving god that cared about me and would never be so unkind to me as to let me suffer needlessly.

I thought hell was for those that didn't believe as I did. I thought that they were being mean by not accepting my god's "gift" of salvation. I thought that god was only doing what sinners showed that they wanted.. i.e. seperation from god.

Then, when I needed god to help me be closer to him, to keep me from losing my mind, and just to comfort me a little, I got nothing. It was then I realized what a lie the whole christian religion/relationship was.

I realized that I had been fooled into accepting a belief that was unreal. It made me feel like such an idiot for believeing it and for not seeing it's most basic inconsistencies.

I was so angry. Angry at myself for believing it in the first place and angry at those that never gave me the whole truth about it.

Anger is the fear killer. Once you start to see that you've been duped into believeing in a something that "is love" that has no problem with making people burn for ever, you might be a little peeved as well.

Kim, It makes as much sense to worry about hell as it does to worry about being attacked by flying monkeys from the wicked witch of the west.

Andrew,

If your best method of changeing people's minds is fearmongering, I'd say deep down you know your wrong.

I'm sure you'll still write your drivel.

But in the end...you'll still be wrong.

Franciscan Monkey said...

"And you can tell yourself its nothing to worry about, and keep telling yourself that, but deep down you know its not true."

LOL! You're funny, Andrew!

CinemaNet said...

Andrew:

I see everybody else has taken their shots at you. And lemme tell ya', I'm tempted to get right "mid-evil" on your ass, too. But ultimately your posts are adding to our arguments - not detracting from them. As I already said, Andrew, the idea of Hell is one that relies on its emotional impact for sustenance. Without the emotional impact, the idea of Hell is seen for what it is - a stupid one. Sure, we can't know for certain if there aren't invisible planes of existence out there where one either attains eternal happiness or is punished with eternal . . . well, punishment. But these notions do not give credibility to the Biblical concept of Hell. And that is where we get our ideas of the Biblical concept of Hell, Andrew - from the Biblical concepts of Hell.

Since we have to rely on the Bible for information on Hell, we have to test the entirety of the Bible to see if it can be trusted. I've already listed a number of websites that point out Biblical fallacies, contradictions and lies. How many times must I repeat this argument? If the Bible is wrong in even one tiny way, how can any of its other parts be trusted, especially those claims that are supernatural and invisible in nature? The only conclusions we can come to is that the Bible is wrong or that God is lying. If God is lying, then why is it worthy of worship? If God is lying, we do NOT know if Hell is real or not. Ultimately, such conjecture is meaningless, because the fallacies, contradictions and lies in the Bible have disrupted any efforts to ascertain the credibility of the claim of Hell, let alone the claims of any other parts of the Bible. It's one giant clusterfuck. This shows us that the Bible was never meant to be taken literally - that there is no God, Heaven or Hell. The Bible is nothing more than metaphor to convey ancient ideas that have no place in today's world.

Yes, yes, Andrew, I know - we KNOOW it's real! OoOoooOohHhhHHHhH! Boogity-boogity-boogity! And so we again come full circle. Becuase you cannot respond with or to logic, you have to rely on Pascal's wager. I don't even HAVE to touch that one.

Finally . . . for some reason, Andrew, I doubt that you are sincere. But thanks for the opportunity to let me practice logic and reasoning. You might be getting a kick out of this, but just know that you are truly helping people like Kim escape the chains of religious thought. So I suppose you deserve thanks.

You won't be getting it from me :)

webmdave said...

Andrew has been trolling this site on and off for several years. He always posts the same tired old rhetoric.

AtheistToothFairy said...

Andrew wrote:
These liars will try to tell you that all existence, life, mind and reason itself are the product of mindless forces
--
Andrew TROLL,

Can you prove that we are 'liars'?
Of course you can't, but you sure loved making that accusation, didn't you.

In order for someone to tell a 'lie', they have to know they are telling a lie, otherwise Andrew, it's just bad information only.
For our words to be a lie, you are assuming we really believe in your stupid god but are just in denial of it.
Guess again Andrew, for I have ZERO belief in ANY god, yours included buddy.


>>If that is the case, then someday the biochemical processes in your meat brain will cease, and that will be the end...of no more consequence to the world that if another bottle of diet coke went flat.
Of course, their views have never been demonstrated, and atheisms pretensions to a scientific superiority are a lie. THE BIG LIE.

Let's see, how to demonstate this.
Well, when the brain and body dies, then all activity should also stop.
Let's see, have I known any dead people who could still run a race, or calculate a math problem. Nope, not a single one in fact.

Looks to me, that death is THE END Andrew.
Fairly obvious in fact.

>>The world doesn't care about you, and can't help you if it did.

I disagree with this statement.
The world can prolong life and heal many diseases etc..
Sure, it can't give us immortality (yet), but then, neither does a make believe god either.
Oh, but surely your god offers to heal people as our doctors do?
Yeah, just like that 11 year old girl in the ex-xtian news here, that god forgot to fix when so many prayed over her but didn't bother to take her to a doctor, and so she died.

Yeah, your god is really pro-active alright.....NOT!!!

>>Your only hope of a future is with the Lord Jesus Christ.

That is one very powerful assertion you just made here Andrew.
Of course, you have some evidence to back your claim up with, I'm sure?

Face it Andrew, your 'lord' only exists inside your deluded brain cells, and that delusion will vanish when your brain cells die. Problem solved.
Of course, you'll never know you were wrong your entire life, because your brain will be dead dead dead.
Oh, but it's okay Andrew, you just keep right on pretending your god is real and wasting your lifetime chasing after a big NOTHING.


ATF (Who just cast a reality spell on Andrew, in hopes his mind will be set FREE one day)

muji said...

Does GOD exists? Is Jesus is GOD? Many discussions going on. To be punished in hell fire, ther should be one to punish us. Who is he? why he punish us?

Emanuel Goldstein said...

Tootfairy, what is this "freedom" you blather about?

Given your atheistic views, our thoughts are nothing more than the biochemical rumblings in a meat brain, obeying the laws of chemisty and physics.

Nothing "free" about it.

And one day the biochemical rumblings will cease, of no more consquence than a bottle of Diet Coke going flat.

Who ya kiddin, sport?

Emanuel Goldstein said...

And yep, toothfairy, I can prove you are liars.

You cannot demonstrate your claims that all existence, life, mind, and reason itself are the product of mindless forces.

You might as well argue about which is better, Diet Coke or Diet Pepsi.

Emanuel Goldstein said...

By the way, no one has to go to Hell.

Christ will accept anyone at anytime; humanity is never so forgiving.

Emanuel Goldstein said...

And YOUR God, Science, has provided the means to REALLY destroy the world.

Fundies only talk about it, Science has made it possible.

"Give a man enought rope..."

webmdave said...

Hmm,

I wonder if we could get all the various flavors of Christian trolls haunting the joint to get together for awhile. It'd be interesting to see how much agreement they'd have among themselves.

Andrew, no matter how you frame things, your god is imaginary. He and his entourage only exist in your mind.

If I'm lying about this, prove it. Have your loving deity bring down his fist of compassion on this website. It's only a website. No big deal. No one will be hurt, but it would be strong witness to your god's existence and its desire to answer your prayers.

Let us know how it comes out. You can post the results here.

muji said...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=EamNk1i0hqE

muji said...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=EamNk1i0hqE

muji said...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=EamNk1i0hqE
please check

webmdave said...

Oh, boy. Now we have a Muslim troll.

Isn't religious fanaticism fun to watch?

muji said...

wotz fanatism?? to obey and follow the commandments of GOD (Creator) will be called fanatism?

Anonymous said...

Kim,
The recipe for Christian mind control is simple:

A. You have sinned
B. You are destined for hell
C. Only Jesus can save you
D. We offer you Jesus, so come
to our church and tithe. The
more the better.

How long are you going to buy into this sham?

Anonymous said...

WM,
More fun than a barrel of monkeys!

CinemaNet said...

Andrew:

We don't HAVE to prove our universe is the result of mindless forces. I don't remember any of us making that claim. Ultimately, none of us really knows. We can see very clearly the influence and activities of natural forces on our own world. And at the moment, the biggest picture, the How Did We Get Here? is scientifically murky. That does not, by default, mean that Christianity is right. That does not, by default, mean that anyone that says they KNOW something is correct. But one thing we DO know is that Christianity is a lie.

I've already pointed out how I know this, and you have proven me right by continuing to rely on logical fallacies and emotional impact. As helpful as you are in sharpening my logical swords, you're clearly an idiot that isn't fooling anybody but himself. And the world will not have room for such idiocy one day. If I were you, I'd watch my back.

Hav a good day, Andrew, while you can :)

Anonymous said...

WM,
Apparently, the only thing that Christians and Muslims can agree on is ganging upon atheists.

Ooops! Just dropped my martini!

AtheistToothFairy said...

mujeeb wrote:
"wotz fanatism?? to obey and follow the commandments of GOD (Creator) will be called fanatism? "
----
To follow an imaginary, unproven 'creature', with passion and zeal, would indeed in my opinion, be in the realm of fanaticism.

It's one thing to fear their might be a boogie-man in the night forest you have to walk through to get home, it's quite another to believe that the forest boogie-man is telling you what to do. The latter is why we invented padded rooms for certain individuals on this planet.

I will give credit where it's due however. Your "YouTube" Muslim buddy you point us to, states correctly that no writer of the bible ever met jesus, including Paul.

Of course, you think your own prophet was in direct contact with 'god', but you can't prove that claim anymore than the xtians here can prove their own jesus.
Frankly, your own prophet allah was a scam-artist to, and a cruel heartless one at that.

May logic find your brain mujeeb, so you can realize that god is a hoax and anyone pretending otherwise, is trying to get something FROM YOU.
e.g. money, power etc.


ATF (Who will gladly attend the funeral for all god based religions, as soon as the coroner pronounces them dead)

CinemaNet said...

Methinks mujeeb is a troll as well. I don't care about Andrew or mujeeb or whomever else comes along, trolling or not. I just hope Kim has made some progress.

eejay said...

Hey Andrew? Did you just tell a falsehood? Didn't you just say that anyone at anytime could still be saved. Hey asshole! I deny the holy spirit! Can I still be saved? Not if you believe the bible is literally true. Therefore....YeeHaaa!! I'm on my way to hell. Anyone care to join me? Guess I wouldn't dar esay these things if I still had any fear.

ryan said...

billy, your failure to understand me is due to your unfamiliarity with the catholic church. Most people coming of age in the modern roman catholic church have a standard of personal ethics and a sharply-honed social conscience, but couldn't give a rabbit's ass about the church's formal teachings. This should not be too hard to understand.

Astreja said...

Mujeeb: "wotz fanatism?? to obey and follow the commandments of GOD (Creator) will be called fanatism?"

To indoctrinate children into believing in an unproven god is fanaticism.

To force people into following rules that were probably not written by a god is also fanaticism.

And to advocate the murder of kafir and murtads is definitely fanaticism.

Anonymous said...

At first I thought Andrew was a religious nut, bent on pulling others down with him. I'm beginning to suspect that he's just a troll who enjoys seeing us worked up. Otherwise he'd say something different occassionally.

I'm gonna go ahead and feed his ego.

Either way, whether there's a God or not, our decisions are based off of rational thoughts. We don't make decisions for no reason.

Biochemical processes DO control how we process information. If there is a God, that's how he designed us, if there isn't then that's how we evolved.

But if there's a God, then he realized the decisions that you would make ahead of time, in fact, he put you in the situation to make those decisions, so they aren't really yours.

If there isn't, only then can you call your mind "yours" because nobody made it for you.

Besides, I believe Athiest Toothfairy was talking about a different freedom, one that means that our lives don't have to be based off of a lie, but off of the truth. Don't live to follow other people, live to help them. Don't follow dogmas, follow truth.

sillywhispers said...

Looking at your story, I thought you you might be interested in Dr. Stephen Frederick Uhl. He wrote a book called Imagine No Superstition. In it, he talks about going from being a sincere Catholic Priest to an atheist psychologist.

I heard about it on a podcast of the Humanist Network News, which you can subscribe to free through itunes.

Franciscan Monkey said...

Andrew,

Let's pretend your god does exist.

You said:

"Christ will accept anyone at anytime; humanity is never so forgiving."

So let's say someone has been in hell for 10,000 years. Christ will then accept that person into heaven if he repents? Interesting.

Respectfully,
Franciscan Monkey

Anonymous said...

Hey Kim,
I'm 29 years old and going through the same thing. I also am afraid of hell. What helps me get through the day is talking about it with people that are living the same thing. Recently I had a good look into my heart and decided what and who I really am. I know that I am a good person. Ibelieve that I'm a compassioanate, honnest, hard working,loving man, who takes care of his family and his fellow neighbour. If God really does exist and sends me to hell for not believing in him and not by judging me for who I really am and the way I truely lived my life. Well like my wife always says It's his loss...Trust your heart it will never lead you wrong.....

Anonymous said...

and by the way, to everyone who took time to help Kim Thank you, you did not only help her but have helped me in my personal journey. Peace

sconnor said...

Andrew, Andy, DICK,

DICK said, By the way, no one has to go to Hell.Christ will accept anyone at anytime; humanity is never so forgiving.

You still have not answered, DICK. If god is all-loving and wants his earthly children to be saved, why isn't he all-powerful enough to get his "Good News" to everyone of his earthly children, equally? If it is so important and god loves us so much, how come the message is not relevant to other religions, goes unnoticed, questioned, or to the many people who process it as being bullshit. How come god can't make it positively and accurately known to everyone?

I find it hard to reconcile that an all-knowing, all-powerful deity is using you to preach the "good news". You couldn't convince Mother Teresa of the jesus saves doctrine. You come off as an insane, babbling, christian zealot, only worthy of ridicule.

So how about it, DICK. How come your god can't get the message of the "good news" to everyone, equally -- you know besides, that you are doing a shitty-ass job? How come god can't get the "good news" to the other 70%+ of his earthly children, at this moment in time, who are different religions or non-religious or who don't ascribe to your brand of christianity, to save them, from hell -- especially if he is all-loving and all-powerful?

I await your avoidance or non-answer.

It's becoming quite clear because of your avoidance, you don't know DICK, DICK.

--S.

BTW I think I found video of your momma.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCh2FXzD6R4&feature=related

AtheistToothFairy said...

sconnor wrote (To Andrew):
BTW I think I found video of your momma.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCh2FXzD6R4&feature=related

-----
Sconnor,

That was SOME video you found !!
If I were ever inclined to believe that ghost-from-the-dark-side, could take over a person's mind, that women is the perfect example of such.
She's also the perfect example why god based religions MUST PERISH !!


ATF (Who also wonders how safe this woman's children will be, if they ever get seriously sick)

Emanuel Goldstein said...

So religions must perish, eh tooth fairy?

Well, at least you admit it, although it is damned stupid to do so before you have the POLITCAL POWER to make it happen!

But you see, its been tried before, and is being tried now.

The officially atheistic government of China is pushing atheism on the people to...establish atheism! (Amnesty International)

And the Soviet Union tried for 70 years to make religion perish through official programs of atheistic eduations...of course, they failed and self destructed after ruining the country.

You love to denounce what you think is imaginary...how about denouncing what the Offically ATHEISIC GOVERNMENT of China is doing now?

You won't will you?

You abysmall, sickening, cowardly, little...

Emanuel Goldstein said...

Walrus, your "rational thought" is a biochemcial rumbling in your brain.

Given atheist assertions, you have not demonstrated that is of any more conseqence than what goes on in a monkey brain.

Emanuel Goldstein said...

And anyway, you think hell is imaginary.

The atrocities of the Offically Atheistic government of China, and happening now.

And Science continues to provide the means to eliminate civilization as we know it.

So do something about THAT, whining wimps.

Jim Arvo said...

Andrew, you keep neglecting to give us some evidence of your invisible deity. Now, I wonder why that is... I'm guessing you need to hide behind the vitriol and the accusations because you have nothing to support your own position. If that's not the case, you can easily prove me wrong by supplying some well-thought-out arguments, and shelving the hatred toward everyone who does not share your beliefs. Give it a try. My guess is you can't.

sillywhispers said...

I see a straw men. Whether it is right or wrong for communist states to promote atheism and suppress religions is completely separate from the issue of the rightness or wrongness of atheism or the religions being suppressed. Atheism is not communism and nearly all atheists in America are not communist.

speck said...

Ryan sez:

billy, your failure to understand me is due to your unfamiliarity with the catholic church. Most people coming of age in the modern roman catholic church have a standard of personal ethics and a sharply-honed social conscience, but couldn't give a rabbit's ass about the church's formal teachings. This should not be too hard to understand.

Billy sez;
I can't put my finger on it but this still sounds fishy to me...?

Maybe I'll give in to your defense of your latest and greatest version of the popes pals (for now).

You will certainly not begrudge me for being a bit contentious though, right? My opinion is based on the Catholics that I know personally and the fact that I attended eight years of parochial school.

But... good for you and yours. I like your comments and hope I don't step on your toes too badly.

AtheistToothFairy said...

Andrew wrote:
So religions must perish, eh tooth fairy?

To repeat myself....YES.

>>Well, at least you admit it, although it is damned stupid to do so before you have the POLITCAL POWER to make it happen!

No "political power" will be necessary for this to occur.

>>But you see, its been tried before, and is being tried now.

Yes it has, but it's been done the wrong way before.
All that have tried to rid a country of religion, have done so by force and by trying to get their population to see their leader as a god-like entity.
This has been clearly the wrong approach to the problem.

>>You love to denounce what you think is imaginary...how about denouncing what the Offically ATHEISIC GOVERNMENT of China is doing now?
You won't will you?

Actually, I think it's been proven that leaders can't force a non-god belief upon it's population.
As you point out, it's been tried many times before.

So what will be different in the future then.
Simple idea really, but one I think will be effective in the end.

Now I'm not saying you won't have superstitious/religious people in the human future, but they will become the minority of the population, at least in the USA for starters.

It should already be obvious to you, that knowledge is a huge THREAT to faith for some god being.
How many old popular superstitions have faded away, once certain knowledge was gained in the general population?

How many today really believe any longer, that breaking a mirror will bring one 7 years bad luck?
How many in today's society are convinced that stepping on a sidewalk crack, will really break their mother's back.
Most such superstitions have fallen away, and that trend can only continue as the population becomes more and more educated in things like science.

The xtian god is nothing but another form of superstition, but on a grander scale.
Why did the Greek and Roman god's eventually lose their followers?
Why don't we today, have any large populations worshipping Mecury or Saturn or Jupiter?
The answer is because most educated folks clearly realize today that they are just simple planets, with no god like powers.

It's only a matter of time/education before your jesus god also is seen in the same superstitious light, as those Greek and Roman gods are today.

As folks become more and more educated going forward, they will demand evidence for any god claim, just as most of here already do.
Lacking any real evidence being offered up, most will lose their blind faith in such fictitious god beings, including your xtian god.

So it won't be by 'force' that the world will change from holding a god belief, but it will come over time in the form of teaching people about REALITY.
The god-explanation will be needed less and less going forward.

The atheist and ex-xtian population is growing FAST Andrew, and there is little you superstitious god believers can do about it.

Dave's website here, along with MANY similar others, will ensure that your 'average joe' is exposed to the foundation you build your xtian beliefs upon and that foundation will crumble like a cookie.
Folks will come online and SEE how many problems your bible writings have and will start to question their validity with fervor.
They WILL start to demand real evidence for your jesus, just as I did and long behold, they will discover jesus has no more evidence for his human existence than those ancient gods had for their own existence.

It will become plainly obvious to MOST, that this god stuff has been all a human deception, concocted by men of old with an agenda to control everyone they could.

Your bible doesn't hold-water Andrew and it's about time the general population found out the truth of the matter about this so called "holy book".

If I were you, I'd start to get used to the idea that your bind faith in your pretend god, is about to fall from favor. Who knows, maybe a new god will take his place in the future, amongst the minority that retain their superstitious nature.
Hope you're ready willing and able to change god's?

Now take your little temper-tantrums I've seen you post, and trade them for some reasoning ability, m'kay?



ATF (Who will not stop fighting this battle, until the present god(s) follow in suit with the Greek gods)

speck said...

To Atheist Toothfairy:

Bravo!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Andrew,
"The atrocities of the Officially Atheistic government of China, and happening now."

You don't know anything about the religious situation here in China. For starters, the trouble that is going on in Tibet right now is political, not religious. In fact, the Chinese government provides a great deal of religious freedom. Churches of any denomination can be established unless they have been proven to be anti-government, such as Fa Lun Gong.

My first wife was a Seventh Day Adventist and she practiced her religion quite freely here. The only thing that the government doesn't like is unauthorized public demonstrations and proselytizing.

There are very annoying American and Korean missionaries that come here in the guise of teachers, and they spread their religion in home meetings and sometimes even in the classroom.

I have been doing my best to get some of these people deported, but the Chinese government is just too lenient with them.

I would be happy if the government took a harder stance against religion.

Anonymous said...

WM,
What happened to Mujeeb? He was very entertaining.

buffettphan said...

Hey billybee and atheisttoothfairy -

I second that BRAVO!!!!!

Kim,
Your post sure has provoked a lot of responses. Hopefully you've come back here to read them and in doing so realize you are not alone! Not only that, imho, I think you're in pretty good company! (except for andrew ... but isn't he great for a laugh!?!)

Idea said...

Something about how religion works
reposted from www.ebonmusings.org

Maybe it could help...

Imagine that you wanted to create a complex of memes - a memetic virus - whose purpose was to keep people under your control and cause them to obey a set of rules of your choosing; one that would spread from person to person and that would be nearly impossible to eradicate once it had taken root in a mind. Why anyone would want to create such a thing is not important for the purposes of this exercise, but there are many imaginable reasons. A member of the elite seeking personal gain might want to foster a belief system that would convince people to willingly hand over their wealth or possessions; an aspiring leader might want to acquire the obedience of the populace or unite a group of people against an outside threat. The question is, how could one craft a system of beliefs that would inspire such a response?

The first hurdle that must be overcome is to convince people to accept your new ideology. The simplest and the best way is to appeal to self-interest, as successful leaders throughout history have done: people will eagerly follow you if they genuinely believe that doing so will bring benefits to them. But what type of reward to promise? Different people are motivated by different things. The best way to avoid this difficulty, since all the things that people strive after are ultimately just efforts to make themselves happy, is to simply promise your adherents a life of unsurpassable happiness and bliss. While one could try to describe what form this would take, it might be better not to be overly specific, but instead to tell your followers that all their greatest desires will be realized. This allows them to personalize the reward in their own minds to whatever they themselves want most.

This now presents a new difficulty: if you promise something you cannot deliver, people will likely abandon you. But there is a way around that problem as well. Rather than promise your followers they will be rewarded immediately for their allegiance, move the reward to somewhere where its existence can never be disproven. One particularly clever way to do this is to perpetually keep the payoff in the distant but not too distant future, always just over the horizon, always soon but not yet. This will inspire people to keep chasing it, to always be working just a little harder, doing a little more in anticipation of that day. Another solution, not mutually exclusive with the other, is to place the reward after death, in another life beyond this one. Not even the most skeptical examination can conclusively disprove it then. Again, this will encourage your followers to work for you their entire lives without ever becoming discouraged. It might also be helpful to counterbalance this promised great reward with an equally great punishment for those who will not believe, and safeguard this from disproof using the same methods. This will provide strong incentive for believers not to stray, by appealing to their sense of self-preservation as well as their desire for happiness.

The second major issue is transmission. You may be able to sway a few people into believing you, but spending all your time evangelizing would be tedious and slow. For maximum efficiency and rate of spread, the type of growth to strive after is exponential, in which the more followers you have, the more converts you make. The obvious solution is to add to this suite of beliefs a new one that encourages the converted to work to convert others as well. Since we already have the reward proposition, one could justify this by modifying it slightly to inform your followers that it will increase their own reward further to win converts. However, a more subtle and potentially even more effective way is to tell your followers that they should want to convert other people for those people's own good, so that they can share in this wonderful reward. This will give your followers a strong reason to want to evangelize: they will believe that it is the moral thing to do. The existence of a punishment for nonbelievers, as above, will aid in this. Transmission of these beliefs can also be made more effective by encouraging adult converts to teach them to children, who by their nature are more trusting and less skeptical. Throughout their lives, people rarely throw off the beliefs that they were taught while young.

The third important issue is how to retain believers. Since the purpose of this assembly of memes is to keep people under control, encouraging them to think for themselves and question their beliefs is probably a bad idea. Those activities have been feared by those who would control others throughout history, and with good reason: skeptics and freethinkers are by nature difficult to herd. Instead, you want your followers to be passive, accustomed to obedience and unaccustomed to doubting your authority. The most effective way to achieve this is to add to the memetic virus a suite of beliefs that will convince those harboring the virus not to question it. These beliefs would teach your followers not to expose themselves to information or arguments that could damage their beliefs and, where possible, to cut off other believers' access to such information. Most important, teach them that they must always think of their belief as true, no matter what the facts say, and their personal faith takes priority over the evidence of the external world. If possible, teach that absolute trust and obedience are virtues, while doubt, for any reason whatsoever, is a sin, and puts them in jeopardy of losing their promised reward, or worse, suffering the corresponding punishment.

Of course, every reader will have realized the point of this thought experiment by now. The beliefs incorporated into this hypothetical memetic virus, designed to capture and command people's obedience, are precisely those beliefs taught by most of this planet's religions. Religion is a system of memetic thought control. (Richard Dawkins, inventor of the concept of the meme, puts forward the same argument in his above-cited essay Viruses of the Mind.)

Admittedly, these beliefs and the reasons why they are effective at controlling people's minds were not derived from first principles without reference to the external world. This example was constructed with an eye on the teachings of conventional religion. Nevertheless, the fact remains that religions are very effective at directing people's thoughts and actions. The extended example presented above is an attempt to explain why this is so, and what reasoning underlies the tenets of successful religions and makes them effective.

However, it is important to note that, although I have presented this particular example as if a single individual or small group of individuals came together to concoct it deliberately for the purpose of controlling people, I do not believe that most religions were started in this conscious, calculating way. (There may be a few exceptions.) Rather, the organization of religions and the fact that many of them incorporate concepts effective at controlling people is a consequence of memetic evolution. Just as genes do in nature, memes engage in a Darwinian struggle for limited resources - in this case, the number of available human minds. This is not to say that memes "want" to multiply in any conscious sense, any more than viruses do, but memes that are more effective at gaining people's allegiance and belief will inevitably flourish at the expense of those that are not as effective. This principle applies to religion just as it does to other types of memes.

Anonymous said...

Andrew,

Unlike most primates, we are self aware. Since we have developed language and the ability to communicate, we've developed an ability to think of ourselves in symbolic and abstract terms allowing us to project our thoughts far into the future and to evaluate various possible outcomes to determine which is likely to provide the best result.

From that we gain the ability to form a type of morality. We realize that the best path is not always to act in a self interested way, since then anybody can act in a self interested way towards us. Thus, morality is a design of simple logic and, yes, evolution.

Consider the ten commandments, which fundamentalists have claimed for years prove christian superiority in the moral realm:

(I know them all christian, do you?)

1) Thou shalt have no god before me.
2) Thou shalt create no false image
3) Thou shalt not use the name of the Lord in vain
4) Remember the sabbath and keep it holy
(These are simply to keep the sheep bleating)

5) Honor thy father and thy mother
(Of what use would the knowledge of previous generations be if their offspring offered them no chance to pass it on. As evolutionary imparitive, they must have that opportunity)

6) Thou Shalt not murder
(Imagine living in a society where we were free to kill whenever we wanted. It would NOT promote the good of the species. We would have no time to develop society while we were stabbing each other)

7) You shalt not commit adultry.
(We have a biological imperitive to take care of our young. This requires two things: One, that we know our children are our own, and two: that we are able to mate for enough time to raise them (usually most of a lifetime). Adultry does not allow us to know who our offspring would be, and it encourages seperation of couples who should otherwise be raising their children.)

8. Thou shalt not steal
(Because if we have no claim to the fruits of our labor, we have no incentive to create bigger and better things from humanity)

9. Thou shalt not bear false witness
(Because blatant and purposeful deception makes it difficult to form a stable society)

10. Thou shalt not covet
(Because it can lead to all that other crap)


The moral code you christians are so proud of has been around since we became self-aware, something that no other creature in the world can do. But other than being able to create a stable society, communicate, share ideas, build buildings and computers, form a sense of morality, and project our thoughts past the here and now to care for our future and our children's future, and our children's children's future, always adapting and always anticipating, you're right.

Humans vary from monkeys in DNA less than 1%. So we are basically just monkeys in our physical makeup, though vastly superior in our mental abilities. Don't argue with people who know what they're talking about, you don't.

ryan said...

billy:

jesus, no, you haven't stepped on my toes. This has been a discussion between gentlemen.

About being contentious: I believe that neither of us has been TOO contentious, although a little "attitude" enlivens an argument.

Here at St Joseph's I am surrounded by the brightest young people in the country, and of course, the brightest catholics. Perhaps this has skewed my judgement.

We are on the same side, you and I.

AtheistToothFairy said...

billybee said to ATF:
"Bravo!!!!!"
----
Thank you billybee and buffettphan for the "bravo's".

While I'm sure I totally wasted my effort in trying to pry open Andrew's 'mind', perhaps my words caught the attention of someone else who's "on the fence" about these god based religions.

Perhaps in the future, history will write a list of websites (and books) that woke up humankind about these god myths, and Webmaster Dave's site here will be amongst the list of the Top-10.

Let's all hope these things happen in short order !!!


ATF (Who is grateful (but not to god) to be a part of the god-myth education system)

freethinker05 said...

My favorite numbers are 666. Bring it on JeezAss. I want to see how many biblethumpers will line up at the grocery stores, hahaha

speck said...

To Ryan,

This is interesting to me...please indulge my curiosity..?

If I were to describe you as a catholic atheist, would I be at all accurate?

ryan said...

billy,

I do not know if there is a name for people like me. I really do not care if there is a god or not--the existence of a deity is just not important to me.

If a god exists, this god must be understood by that which can be observed in nature. We see "nature red in tooth and claw" as Tennyson wrote. What does that tell us about the nature of god? This is what it tells us: that god is sitting back and watching all things as though it were a stage play of some kind, and roots for the winner--the stronger--and boos when the weaker is dragged off the stage.

Do you object to this? What do you think when you see a Down's syndrome child? Someone who is horribly deformed? Horrible, ugly birth defects? People who are so fucked up they will never have a social or sexual life? Is there a god who is presiding over this? I shudder inside at the very thought of such a god.

And the theist insists that his god has a plan for all this. I ask them why an all-powerful god cannot avoid hurting people. Never yet got an answer.

I hope this brings you closer to understanding me. You seem to take a keen interest in me.

No, I am not a catholic athest. That is a contradiction in terms. I simply have met a lot of smart catholics and I respect them.

Unknown said...

The church have misinterpreted the Scriptures. When Yahweh speaks of fires of Hell, the fire symbolises judgement. It is not physical pain, but rather eternal anguish as in emotional pain, knowing one will be separated for eternity. HOWEVER, Hell is only reserved for Satan, the fallen angels, and those people that wilfully deceive people, like Popes, Politicians, Media, Academia, any people that lead people away from Yahweh. The majority of humans will simply cease to exist upon death, their souls will be dissipated. God is merciful, those that do not choose Him nor choose to deceive will cease to exist, just like animals. The Catholics teach Hell, as an inferno, as it causes people to fear instead of love God, thereby they can get more money from them.

Read Yada Yahweh, available at www.yadayahweh.com

Unknown said...

Yahweh is all about love, to fear Him is not what He wants. He wants you to love Him, like a child does to their father, one of respect and reverence, without an inch of fear (being scared). He wants us to walk with Him, this means being at ease with Him, growing in our relationship with Him. Remember, His Spirit is feminine, She is our Mother.

To add to my earlier post, yes I'm taking a dig at Catholicism, because it is based on the religion of Mystery Babylon, of ancient sun-god worship. They have feasts such as Christmas, Easter, Lent, which are all pagan festivals and condemned in Scripture. From the start Catholicism has been about money and power, they cause people to fear in order to manipulate and control them.

God wants a love relationship, not one of submission.

AtheistToothFairy said...

M wrote:
To add to my earlier post, yes I'm taking a dig at Catholicism, because it is based on the religion of Mystery Babylon, of ancient sun-god worship.
----
Hey "M",

Did it ever dawn on you that your jesus myth story, might also come from sun-worshippers to?

The ancients were really big on trying to make sense of the sky they saw, which is where the non-science of astrology tried to fill in those gaps of knowledge.
There is a very good chance that your jesus figurehead was nothing but the Sun in the sky and not the son-of-man.

One thing is for certain though, whether jesus was born as an ancient urban legend or jesus instead represented our Sun, this jesus is surely just a work of fiction.

If you believe I'm wrong, I await your empirical evidence to show otherwise.


ATF (Who thinks Daddy yahweh was nothing more than a Red-Giant 'Sun')

Astreja said...

M: "God wants a love relationship, not one of submission."

In My opinion, concepts such as Hell negate any possibility of a loving relationship with a god. Any 'love' one might otherwise have for the god in question is terminally tainted with fear and distrust.

sillywhispers said...

M: "The church have misinterpreted the Scriptures. When Yahweh speaks of fires of Hell, the fire symbolises judgement. ......"

This is the new gentler interpretation of God from the same protestants who are now preaching "relationship" to God theology. These people "know" God is real because they "talk" to him everyday.

These protestants are simply trying to reconcile modern sensibilities to a violent, sadistic, sexist, racist, egotistical God to make their religion palatable. Take it as a sign they have to revise their religion to still attract followers.

Anyway, I hope M's comments helped put Kim's mind at ease. Still, since there is no hell, there was nothing to fear anyway.

OTC said...

"They have feasts such as Christmas, Easter, Lent, which are all pagan festivals and condemned in Scripture."

Please, demonstrate one scriptural reference that prooves that celebrating the birth of Christ (Christmas), the Resurection of Christ (Easter), or that the 40 days of sacrifice after Jesus' baptism (Lent) are condemned?

Thank you.

Unknown said...

atheisttoothfairy, Yahushua is the most documented person to have ever lived, even according to secular standards, you cannot deny He lived.

astreja, exactly. All Yahweh wants is a loving relationship, one without fear. But the church (Cath, Prot, Evan, etc) even other religions have created God as this object to be feared, contrary to what He tells us.

sillywhispers, you're talking about Islam, their god is a sadistic, sexist, violent and racist. Yahweh is Love, picture a happy family, a husband, a wife and a child standing in between them, in front of their home and that is what Yahweh wants. Happy families. But no, the church and mankind over time have twisted His Word for personal gain, thereby people have lost connection with Him. He said it would happen, the current state of the world is exactly as recorded in Scripture. He has given us everything we need to find and know Him. All you need to do is knock on His door.

otc, the date of the birth of Christ is not recorded in Scripture but all evidence points to the Feast of Tabernacles which is usually about October time. Tabernacles is a 7 day long Feast prophetic of when He comes to camp out amongst His people for a Millennium. 25 December is the birthday of the sun-god Tammuz, who's mother, Ashtar (Easter), declared devine conception during the vernal equinox of spring when the sun crossed the equator and impregnated her. Easter is around a similar time to Passover, but Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits are celebrated on 14, 15 and 16 of the month of Nisan respectively. And Lent is a 40 day fast weeping for the sun-god Tammuz. Regarding Tammuz, read Ezekiel 8, especially verse 14. Regarding Christmas trees read Jeremiah 10, especially verses 3 and 4. The Catholic Popes substituted God's Feasts for worthless idols and pagan festivals. They even changed His Sabbath rest to a Sunday in honour of the sun gods, a blatant disregard for the 10 commandments.

Yahweh is about love, that is why Hell is not an inferno but rather a place of separation from Him. Those that do not choose Him will simply cease to exist upon death, unless one decided to do Satan's work and deceive thereby getting the same reward as him. Yahweh will respect a person's decision of not wanting to know Him, therefore He won't know them and they won't know Him. Love requires choice. There has to be this third destination in order for freewill to be exercised and for God to be considered lovable.

Unknown said...

Note: When Adam and Chawah (errantly known as Eve, which is pagan) sinned you'll notice that Yahweh came and knelt down in front of them, adored them and clothed them. An animal had to be sacrificed in order to clothe them, symbolic of the work of Yahushua who came down to our level, walked amongst us and was sacrificed in order to clothe us in garments of light, that we might be able to stand in His presence and be restored in relationship. He's a God of love, he adores us, wants to be in relationship with us individually.

jimearl said...

M: Yahweh came and knelt down in front of them, adored them and clothed them. An animal had to be sacrificed in order to clothe them,

OK, M, when Yahweh comes and kneels down in front of me, I'll accept him. He won't have to kill my dog though, cause I'm already clothed. I know this won't happen because Yahweh only exists in his believers minds. Sorry, but my mind has no room for invisible deities. If he is as you portray him, he will come in person to me and then I will see. I'll be waiting, but I won't hold my breath. Jim Earl

Unknown said...

Jim, they felt naked, as in they had realised they sinned against Him. He doesn't tell us what animal was sacrifised but it would've been a clean animal, so it rules out dog. And Jim, He already did kneel down in front of you, when He came to walk on earth, but you still don't accept. Read Luke 16:19-31, even if a person was raised up from the dead in front of you you probably still wouldn't believe.

And for other readers, notice the guy in the flames in Luke 16:19-3, if it were real fire he would be screaming in pain but no, he's asking for water, symbolising the water of life. Being in agony is that he's suffering emotional pain for being separated from God, he's in agony not torture.

sillywhispers said...

M,

No, I'm not confusing the Islamic God with it's predecessor.

The Jewish and Christian God is every bit as evil and you know it. Stop lying to yourself and use the same standards you would apply to any human being when you access the actions attributed to him in the Bible.

I could write volumes on this. Look for yourself. Start with Genesis and see how many sentences you can find that are misogynistic. I counted over 16 in just the creation stories alone. The book gets extremely brutal and is amoral.

Others have done a fine job of explaining all this. I'll just point you to an easily searchable site where you can investigate this further on your own. http://www.evilbible.com/

ryan said...

Here is my response to "m".

I am thrilled to hear about your modernized jewgod. He must have really shaped up over the centuries. I imagine he has responded to all the mockery of his critics, and has mended his ways.

The old god of the jews and xristians had been a petty; vindictive; bloodthirsty little tyrannt; a simple-minded little bully who couldn't stand it when the smallest of his creatures dared to think for himself.

But now we hear that this squalid little piece of possum-shit has been rehabilitated? I am delighted to hear it. So now the new yahweh likes us? If by that you mean that he respects us as sentient beings; he wants us to think for ourselves; he encourages us to make our own decisions, and that he wants us to grow up to be ourselves, well then, where do I sign?

Of course I am joking. I have heard this shit so many times that it has become the best defense AGAINST xristianity; you people who come in here to preach your putrified jewshit and try to make it sound somehow modern. The fucking hippies did this 40 years ago. jesus is a relationship. Wow man, jesus is groovey. scuse me while I gag out my granola.

Look m.......what we need is a way of life that involves self-respect and self-determination. We do not want or need your jew religion. You have exhumed a rotting corpse, spiffed him up in a zootsuit and patent leather shoes with cuban heels, and said, Hey, he don't smell too bad, does he?

No m........try to dress him up all you like, he still stinks. And by the way, your attempt to disquise the xristian doctrine of hell is so silly. When did the xristian religion start teaching a cooled-off hell?

speck said...

To Ryan;

Ryan, my friend, you've helped bring me to a better understanding about people.

Thanks for your patience and clearly spoken honesty.

All the best to you,

billybee

Anonymous said...

So I'd just like to break from the main real quick and note that I really kind of like M's faith, as far as christianity goes. I disagree with it, but at least it isn't the politicized bullshit most christians spout off to me.

You may be a "faith" slave, but at least you're one of the good ones. Of course, using an ex-christian site for the purpose of evangelizing... well maybe you'd better reconsider that particular course of action.

Have a nice life, and hopefully your intellect will catch up to you one day!

ryan said...

billy, you have left me speechless, and that takes some doing. I am pleased that you enjoyed my posts.

I thought I would pass along something funny. I was out running a few errands here in town, and I passed by the united methodist church. The sign said "Spring is god's way of saying he loves us"

Really? Then what is winter? Here in northwest Indiana we have had a bitch of a winter; what with melting snow and rain, the flooding has been a disaster. There has yet to be a total of the property damage.

So spring is god's way of saying "HaHa, no hard feelings; just a little prank".

Today the temp is 40; sharp wind out of the west, and a sky as grey as death. god's love aint arrived just yet. Maybe this is the loving god that "m" was talking about.

ryan said...

I think that m is one of those "jews for jesus" nutjobs. I am writing a bit more because this whole thing has gotten to be so funny.

Listen Irving, when did your god start loving the world (john 3:16). You seem to take the bible literally, judging by your use of adam and eve. Okay now follow through and read the rest of the bible literally.

god hated the world so much that he destroyed the whole fucking thing; men; women; children; animals; birds; butterflys, and saved a few animals and a few proto-jews of dubious worth. It has been said that god is beyond human understanding. That is fucking-a right.

And now we move to the "war stories", whole ethnic groups slaughtered off; again, men; women; children; babies; livestock. You no doubt have some wild explaination about how this was done out of love. Let's hear it. And by the way, count the number of times that your ancestors went out to kill babies. The king james calls them "sucklings".

I would worship Satan before I would worship your god. I have seen rabid dogs with more compassion than your god.

And one more thing, Stanley. jesus is not "the most documented person that ever lived". And don't give me that josephus shit. Ancient historians dealt in fiction; rumor; legend; hearsay, whatever bullshit came their way.

god of love, my ass

OTC said...

Jeremiah 10 is talking about idols, this does not in any way say that we cannot celebrate the birth of His son, Jesus.

If you're concerned about the secularization of Christmas and Easter, of course, this is simply a sad reflection of the state of this world. But please remember that for those that are Christians, these celebrations are solely about the birth, death and resurrection of our Lord.

The idols discussed in Jeremiah 10 address the man built objects that are being worshiped by these people. In our day (as also in theirs) this is paralleled by all idols of men. Be it, money, power, pride, pleasure, etc..


You have not, in any way, shape or form, demonstrated one scriptural reference that proves that celebrating the birth of Christ (Christmas), the Resurrection of Christ (Easter), or that the 40 days of sacrifice after Jesus' baptism (Lent) are condemned?

M, when those that despise Christ start patting you on the back for a good “version” of Faith (like wal-russ), be concerned, be very concerned.

sillywhispers said...

OTC, I don't know why I should care about whether or not Christmas, Easter or birthdays etc. are against scripture since it's all a bunch of poppycock. But, to humor you, here are a few lines from the English translation of the Bible, Douay Old Testament Of Anno Domini 1609 (DOT):

2 Thus saith our Lord: According to the ways of the Gentiles learn not: and (a) of the signs of heaven, which the heathen fear, be not afraid:

3 Because the laws of the people are vain: because the work of the hand of the artificer hath cut a tree out of the forest with an axe.

4 with silver and gold he hath decked it: with nails and hammers he hath compacted it, that it fall not asunder..

(Jerermie/Jeremiah 10:2-4, The Original And True Douay Old Testament Of Anno Domini 1609. Prepared and Edited by Dr. William von Peters, Ph.D. Copyright © 2005, Dr. William G. von Peters. Ph.D. 2005 copyright assigned to VSC Corp.).

29 When the Lord thy God shall have destroyed before thy face the nations, that thou enterest in to possess, and thou shalt possess them, and dwell in their land:

30 beware left thou imitate them, after they be subverted at thy entering in, and thou require their ceremonies, saying: As these nations have worshipped their Gods, so will I also worship.

31 Thou shalt not do in like manner to the Lord thy God. For all the abominations, that our Lord doeth abhor, have they done to their Gods, offering their sons and daughters, and burning them with fire (Deuteronomy 12:29-31, DOT).

This came from http://www.cogwriter.com/birthdays.htm You can go there for more on the subject.

gabec said...

It amazes me that people actually try and convince themselves there is no God. Your own conscience convicts you and yet you want reassurance that your fear of hell will go away? Conscience means "with knowledge" (con=with; scienece=knowledge) so everytime you deny God you do so with knowledge that he is there. The good news is I can assure you that if you continue to seer your conscience your fear of hell proabably will go away. The bad news however, is our beliefs have no bearing on the reality of the situation. read(Romans 1)

SamiB said...

gabec says "It amazes me that people actually try and convince themselves there is no God."

In response, I don't 'try' to convince myself there is no god, nor do I need convincing from anyone else. I believe wholeheartedly and without reservation that your 'god' is a fictional creation and no one needs to convince me otherwise.

Unfortunately your arrogance is symptomatic of your faith. Blind faith. If YOU are so convinced that your god exists then so be it. However, I believe your faith is a sign of your weakness, your inability to function in life without an ideological crutch.

People like myself are not 'denying' your god, we can't deny something that we don't recognise as existing. And all your redrafted bibles, corporate churches and manipulating, poison spitting preachers don't prove anything other than how sadly gulliable you so obviously are.

How's that for judgemental - not a good look is it!

OTC said...

Yes Gabec, all these people that work so hard to deny the existence of God are to be pitied. I want so much for everyone to recognize the truth of the situation we’re in but they simply don’t care. They’ve listened to the father of lies and believed every word.

I’m a convert so I recall what it was like to listen and listen but never hear. For me, the words of family and Christian co-workers never could reach me, despite my attempt to hear. I accepted a free bible; I listened to my mother talk about God and dismissed it all as simply ancient literature. Or, if it was the word of God, I kept it on a shelf because my conscience already knew that I wasn’t living by its standards. Despite my disbelief, I always held that until they could prove that life could come from nothing (ie. abiogenesis) I would continue to believe in God. I would pray to Him in times of difficulty and surprisingly, I also tried to send this mysterious God a thank you when things were great. My tiny little faith was still alive despite my choices to ignore all His laws.

What I find interesting is that it took God’s personal intervention to snap me to reality. I remember praying a thank you prayer when I was in an unhealthy relationship that I thought was healthy. That same day something happened to cause me much distress and by God’s grace, send me searching for Him. In a bizarre way, those people that spoke of God to me over the years, the bible I had from one of them and all the cumulative Christian words were still required for my conversion. God did and always does the real work but He did use the work of these believers to facilitate my conversion.

This is why we believers must never give up hope for those that deny the existence of God. Our prayers, our sacrifices, our exhortations and our living testimonies may all work to compel some souls to God when He deems it time to bestow them with that special grace.

May God’s grace touch all your hearts some day and melt away its hardness. Your seared consciences are no match for God’s love. God used my sins to cause my distress; I hope that all of you receive the same gift.

OTC

Unknown said...

Ryan said,

"I thought I would pass along something funny. I was out running a few errands here in town, and I passed by the united methodist church. The sign said "Spring is god's way of saying he loves us"

"Today the temp is 40; sharp wind out of the west, and a sky as grey as death"

I am your neighbor to the north in Michigan and God Damn you couldn't have described the weather up here any better. Grey as fucking death in the 30's with 40mph winds. Where the hell is spring? We are usually playing golf at least a few days in March, but this year not even close. Maybe perhaps there is an influx of homasexuals living in our areas thus causing the drastic weather.

OTC said...

Hi Kim,

Please talk to a priest and pray for faith and guidance before you do so. Even our priests are loosing their faith and are under grave attacks.

I recommend that you cry out to God's mother, our spiritual mother, she'll send her Son to your rescue. You should do this by reciting a rosary while meditating on all that Jesus did for all of us.

Christ is certainly not a joke or some elaborate hoax as many people in this world will have you believe. His mysteries are so difficult for today's world that is in a state of apostasy. The good news is that His time of mercy is still here, right now.

Have faith in the sacraments He gave us and I assure you that they will restore your faith. As always Kim, reject all and any sins that you see in yourself. Jesus will see your efforts.

To summarize, take the tiny faith you have left to say a rosary and then find a priest to confess of your struggles. Once you’ve received the sacrament of confession, go to Church every Sunday and enter into communion with our Lord. This spiritual gift is more precious that we could ever realize. Endeavor to walk very close to Jesus for the remainder of your days and He is faithful and just to give you the grace of perseverance.

Kim, please don't drift away again from the Church during these times, God forbid, you may not receive the grace of faith again.

My wife and I will pray for you,
God bless.
OTC

Unknown said...

Hey OTC I didn't read your post until after I had sent my last one through. It's funny how you and I were once sitting on the same fence. I always held onto God belief throughout my entire life. Sometimes the belief was tepid at best but I always held on.

Then at the very lowest point in my life I finally asked Jesus to come into my heart. Well long story short, I finally realized that Jesus was a myth and I picked my sorry butt up off the ground and got my shit together all by myself. I still professed God belief until I discovered the real truth on this very web site.

Tell me what convinced you that God was real that can't be explained in some other way. I am curious what hit you that didn't hit me. I ask you with all due respect.

Astreja said...

M: "Those that do not choose Him will simply cease to exist upon death, unless one decided to do Satan's work and deceive thereby getting the same reward as him."

M, even if the only sentient being in your hypothetical "hell" is the equally hypothetical Satan, that is one sentient being too many. I cannot find it in Myself to love or worship any being that would punish anything for eternity.

Gabec: "The bad news however, is our beliefs have no bearing on the reality of the situation."

Correct. Brace yourself for the reality that there probably is no heaven and that you simply die at the moment of your death.

And, until you can prove the existence of Hell via actual science, every single fucking time you threaten someone with Hell you are committing an act of psychological abuse, causing grievous mental harm to real live people.

OTC (Self-medicating RC troll): "Your seared consciences are no match for God’s love."

So much for that 'free will' shit.

"God used my sins to cause my distress; I hope that all of you receive the same gift."

No thanks; I had My fill of BDSM bullshit courtesy of My ex-spouse.

"I always held that until they could prove that life could come from nothing (ie. abiogenesis) I would continue to believe in God."

That so, OTC? In that case, I expect you to announce your deconversion the very day a successful abiogenesis experiment is announced to the world.

And it won't be long now... Five, ten years, tops. Polypeptide chains have already been synthesized in test tubes. The moment RNA show up on its own (and I suspect that it shall), it's game over for the tired old "Life can't come from non-life, therefore Goddidit" fallacy.

boomSLANG said...

OTC...Yes Gabec, all these people [who] work so hard to deny the existence of God are to be pitied.

As someone already pointed out, you are confusing "denial", with disbelief. To "deny" something implies its existence. We simply don't believe in "God"/gods. On the other hand, if you could proffer some convincing, objective evidence for a "god", I'd be happy to reconsider my disbelief.

OTC...I want so much for everyone to recognize the truth of the situation we’re in but they simply don’t care.

The situation "we're in"?? Who's "we"?..you got some shit in your pocket?

OTC...They’ve listened to the father of lies and believed every word.

Um, 'sorry to burst your theistic bubble of delusion, but Atheists don't believe in "Unholy" spooks, either. Besides, such a thing would hamper our supposed "free will", which, if your worldview were actually true, such hampering would create a contradiction. Either "sinners" are responsible, or the "Unholy" spook(the "Devil") is responsible, but not both. Just one of the myriad internal inconsistancies in Christian doctrine.

OTC... I always held that until they could prove that life could come from nothing (ie. abiogenesis) I would continue to believe in God.

That's odd, you don't seem to be fretting over the notion of a "God" who could "come from nothing". I think they call it a double-standard. 'Lots of those in Christianity.

OTC...My tiny little faith was still alive despite my choices to ignore all His laws.

'Sorry, but "His laws" are completely irrelevant. If the biblical heaven exists, it is riddled with people who broke these "laws" in their mortal lives(because "everyone is a sinner"). Of course, they "repented", and they now get to "sit"(?).."float"(?)..or whatever, side-by-side with "Yahweh".

So, in the end, "His laws" don't matter one single bit; only belief matters. Nothing else. Please reexamine what it is you believe, m'kay?

OTC..... we believers must never give up hope for those that deny the existence of God.

Actually, you should give up. Remember, it was Prophosied that there would be "apostates" in the "end-times". In case you're not getting this---we, non-believers, play a very important role; we are, in actuality, completely necessary in seeing "God's plan" to fruition---for if we all converted to Christianity, it will have been a failed Prophecy. And you wouldn't want to interfere in Mr Omniscient's "plan", would you?

OTC.. Your seared consciences are no match for God’s love.

Yes, yes!.. no match for "God's love".....but our "seared consciences" are evidently kicking the shit of "God's will". C'mon!..seriously now...man's will?....stronger than "God's will"??? We're talking the "Creator of the Universe", here. What is the sense in believing in a "God" who isn't "ALL-powerful"???

Christianity is silly.

OTC said...

Xrayman: “Tell me what convinced you that God was real that can't be explained in some other way. I am curious what hit you that didn't hit me.”


Hi Xrayman,

What hit me the most was that when I prayed that day, I wept bitterly, which is something that I had never done before. I would not pray much as it stood but the day I decided to pray a Thank You to God, for some reason I could not stop weeping. 20 minutes later I sinned in a way that caused me much distress. It still did not wake me up from my spiritual darkness right away. Probably two weeks into my distress I turned to my old knee-jerk reaction, which is to pray when under stress. Somehow my distress was worse than all the other times of my life and my desire to turn to God resulted in actually reading two books that Christians had given me over the years. I opened and read the only two Christian books in my home, “The Bondage Breaker” and the Bible. I read the New Testament and for the first time could see myself as a sinner. All those Church readings and sermons during my childhood were never heard by my ears, until then, years later.

I think that the day God’s spirit came to me was one late night several weeks into my distress that I prayed to God. I remember uttering in tears “What have I been doing all these years!”…I could recall so many sinful actions in my life. My personal distress didn’t really leave me for about 2 years and throughout this time my faith and love of Christ grew. I also remember pleading with God on one of those nights to please, please don’t let me fall away again. I told Jesus that if or when the sun shines again in my life that I don’t ever want to live like He does not exist. This was years ago and by God’s grace, my faith has been unwavering. I have much peace and joy in my life now and don’t recall a day that goes by when I don’t think of Jesus with my heart.

Since then I’ve been blessed to witness miracles and my personal research has also led me to believe the faith building miracles that are accepted by the Catholic Church.

So, in summary, it was bizarre timely weeping coupled with distress causing sin that awakened my faith. Once I had faith, I was blessed with more faith building gifts from God. Now, He’s given much too much to this undeserving soul and I know that I will never leave Jesus. My heart belongs to Him.

God bless,
OTC

redtail said...

Do I smell Marc...?

SamiB said...

Dear Kim, please don't let OTC's manipulative post sway or influence you from your journey towards enlightenment and peace with yourself.

OTC, are you missing a sensitivity chip? Kim didn't come to this site to be preached to by the likes of you. People who are in bondage to a destructive and controlling belief system that feeds off human weakness.

YOU are a PREDATOR, a manipulative individual who must have seen Kim's post and like a bloody hawk, you swoop down for the kill.

You said "Kim, please don't drift away again from the Church during these times, God forbid, you may not receive the grace of faith again."

Well that's a threat if I ever heard one. Jesus Christ you people make me sick to my stomach.

Bill B said...

Well I appreciate your well thought out response there Mr. OTC. What you have presented was inner emotional experiences. I am not seeing how that proves the existence of Jesus/God. Hey whatever I respect your analogy of your experiences. I just wonder why it never happened to me. Oh wait I know why because my subconscious would never buy into something without concrete phsyical evidence.

OK now I really want to hear about the miralces. I am going to go out on a limb and say there is no such thing. Period. I've worked at a hospital for 14 years and have never seen a miracle. I've seen many people beat incredible medical odds, but I've never seen a miralce in the literal sense of the word.

xrayman

Astreja said...

SamiB: "OTC, are you missing a sensitivity chip? Kim didn't come to this site to be preached to by the likes of you. People who are in bondage to a destructive and controlling belief system that feeds off human weakness."

(applauds)

It's worse than that, SamiB. Much worse.

OTC (very likely our usual RCC troll) is an obsessively religious narcissist who seems to have constructed an extremely self-serving sadomasochistic fantasy whereby he misbehaves, Daddy threatens to hurt him, and Mommy steps in to protect the poor little boy from the Big Scary Man.

Must've had one hell of a nasty childhood indoctrination to be that fucked up with so much "me worthless turd" varnished over with the thinnest veneer of "me saved now".

SamiB: "YOU are a PREDATOR, a manipulative individual who must have seen Kim's post and like a bloody hawk, you swoop down for the kill."

Agreed. OTC, you are a shameful and despicable individual indeed. You are attempting to use us as pawns in your theosexual fantasy, to make you feel less alone in your delusions.

News flash: You can not wish away your doubts by professing eternal fidelity to your pet god and his (weirdly, not also divine) mommy. As much as you have screwed up your conscious mind by screaming I do I do I do believe in spooks at the top of your lungs, your unconscious mind was not fooled. Cognitive dissonance resonates in your every post. You cannot prove to us that your god exists, and that pisses you off no end. This manifests in your repeated invasion of our space despite requests to go away and stay away.

And then you wring your hands and bite your tongue and whip off another prayer to /dev/null, asking your imaginary friend to violate our free will and make us fall in line with your unproven and thoroughly odious beliefs.

You disgust Me thoroughly. Go wail your pious tears somewhere else.

OTC said...

Samib typed: {You said "Kim, please don't drift away again from the Church during these times, God forbid, you may not receive the grace of faith again."

Well that's a threat if I ever heard one.}

Faith is a gift and yes, we can lose it by sinning. This is not a threat; it is a fact of human life whether anyone believes it or not.

I know that you don’t give scripture any credibility but for those that may still have some faith, see how our first pope, Saint Peter, confirms that a believer can have knowledge of Jesus (ie. Faith) and then through sin become lost again. Verse 21 should be of special concern for those that did once believe.

2 Peter 2
20 For if they (ExChristians), having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their (ExChristians) last condition is worse than their first.
21 For it would have been better for them (ExChristians) not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
22 What is expressed in the true proverb has happened to them, "The dog returns to its own vomit," and "A bathed sow returns to wallowing in the mire."


Sorry Samib, if you feel that we are all being threatened. Choose love and live or choose sin and die. Is it really such a hard choice? You can be with your creator in the end or not. This place, our natural world, is only a glimpse of His glory, please don't let sin separate you from your eternal home with God.

OTC

SamiB said...

Touche Astreja,

And what's more OTC has the sheer arrogance to claim he pities us. PITIES US?

I'm afraid that at the end of the day the OTC's of this world are too far gone to be rescued from their shakily constructed chimeras.

They say ignorance is bliss, but not for the people on the receiving end of it.

SamiB said...

OTC thank you so very much for caring about what happens to my dirty little soul. Great sales pitch but I'm immune to advertising I'm afraid.

By the way, what is the going rate for conversions these days? Does it work like a triangle scheme where the more you sell the more you get back? If I did decide to sign up can you offer me any sweeteners? Like perhaps a set of stainless steel steak-knives or a mechanical dancing monkey?

OTC said...

No, I have nothing to offer you, it's God who's offering. I'm just one of His little creatures, like you.

The offer: To be with God and experience the height of your existence. No drugs, no sex, no power, no money, nothing on this earth can compare to heavenly things. Nothing.

What's the catch? Choose God over sin. Accept what Jesus says about you and turn to become someone that detests lies. No more lying to anyone and no more lying to yourself. Accept that the gig is up, He knows your heart, every wicked jealous, hateful, impure thought you've ever had from birth. That's the catch; give it all up for Him.

You won't be able to but He'll help you through your spiritual journey back home. You'll be amazed at how quickly He'll come to your rescue.

boomSLANG said...

Choose God over sin.

Choose reality over delusion.

SamiB said...

NO SEX? NO DRUGS? OTC you need to sharpen up your sales pitch! Now if you'd just have offered me the mechanical dancing monkey we might have had a deal. Mind you, I would have taken the monkey and sent your religion back before the 30 day return policy was up. I'm a dirty heathen like that you see.

Are you familiar with the word FUTILE?

Astreja said...

Odious Theocratic Creep: "Faith is a gift and yes, we can lose it by sinning. This is not a threat; it is a fact of human life whether anyone believes it or not."

Not a fact; an unsupported assertion based on dubious mythology. Prove it or go away.

"What's the catch? Choose God over sin."

Choose one imaginary thing over another? What a waste of time.

"No more lying to anyone and no more lying to yourself."

That's why we deconverted, you idiot! We got sick and tired of the myth known as Christianity.

And you "rescued" yourself, OTC. No actual gods helped you. All that you believe lives only in your own imagination. These beings that you want us to believe in are simply memeplexes based roughly on your childhood RCC indoctrination.

If you insist on remaining a believer and want to retain a modicum of sanity, start by tossing out that tired old Church of Peter/ Constantine/ Ratty16 garbage. You can do better. A lot better.

I dare you to imagine a god that does not need or want blood sacrifice of any sort.

A god that neither drowns planets nor orders "chosen people" to slaughter entire populations.

A god that does not going around killing the innocent, let alone its own son, because of someone else's past behaviour.

A god that can peacefully coexist with the best and the worst life has to offer, rather than running and hiding because it can't endure being in the presence of misbehaving humans.

A god that has no intention of destroying the world, nor of "judging" anything.

Dare ya. If you truly believe in love, it'll be easy to do. Trivially easy. If not... Oh, well. (shrugs and wanders off to pour Herself a fresh cup of chai)

Jacstar said...

xrayman: I've worked at a hospital for 14 years and have never seen a miracle

I have to second that! I haved worked in a children's hospital for the past 7 years and I have never seen a miracle either. I have seen many people praying for miracles, christian parents praying for their children...When I was a christian... i would pray for all my patients too....But not one miracle....

Anonymous said...

Kim,
Don't listen to OTC, either. S/he's an idiot, too.

ryan said...

A brief hi to the xrayman. The sun is out today and I died of shock!!!

My wife and I like to go up to South Haven for a few getaway days. We like stolling around the beach and we always drink too much aboard the Idler. Hope you get to the golf course soon.

Oh, and we also like to go to the Stooges at St Joseph's.

And now for otc......when you want to talk about religion, you need to specify which religion you mean. I was raised in a church that taught that the catholic church was a trick of satan. I was taught that catholics put the pope above god, and mary above jesus. I was taught that nuns were whores for the priests. I was taught that catholics could get away with any sin they pleased as long as they confessed it. Is this the right religion?

On the other hand, the catholics used to teach that "extra ecclesia non salus est"....outside the church there is no salvation. Is this the right religion?

otc, I am just dying for spiritual guidance and I can't think for myself. I am lost in my sins--just 10 minutes ago I cast my wayward eyes toward a nice black woman with tits like the warheads on a Cruise missle. I need jewzoo in the worst way, but I can't decide which of the hundreds of churches is the right church. They all preach different things, and yet each claims to be right, and each condemns the other as wrong.

May jewzoo forgive me, but I think that the whole thing is a crock of shit. Or maybe mary should forgive me. Or the priest. uh.....damn I'm confused.

speck said...

OTC,

Remember Ted Haggard? Well I have a notion that you are of the same breed as Teddy boy.

There is something you are hiding and trying to cover it up with your self-rightous posturing.

Am I right...? C'mon, you can tell us. We're just a bunch of sin loving hellfuel....

It'll feel good to get it off your puffed out chest.

ryan said...

billy is right; otc has got something to hide. jesus, he sounds like john the fucking baptist.

otc, I can almost hear your weeping and sobbing; your mindless drivel about your saviour; gasping out your thanks and praise.

Listening to you makes us all glad that we are not you.

jimearl said...

Ryan, you are so right. I am so thankful that I have escaped the insanity that is Christianity. Reading the various posts from the cretins remind me daily what I have to be thankful for.

Many, many thanks go out to Andrew, OTC, M, and all the other cretin posters for keeping me free from the delusional crap they are addicted to. Keep it up guys, I can't thank you enough. Jim Earl

speck said...

Hey xrayman & jackie;

I also spent many years working in a hospital. I was very bold and open about my Christian beliefs.

I never saw so much as a blip on a monitor to demonstrate my prayers had any effect on anyone EVER!

do we see a pattern.....?

ryan said...

jim, some of their ravings should be nailed to the school-house walls, instead of the ten commandments, followed by the solemn warning:

Don't Let This Happen To You!!!!

About the miracles discussed in the past few posts: there is a guy here on campus who swears that his uncle "came back to life" after being brain-dead for several minutes. Some of his fellow students believe him. I think he is lying his ass off.

Unknown said...

Hey Billy B. and Jackie,

While there are no miracles in the hospitals, there are many people who survive incredible medical odds, but on the flip side of that, there are those who die undergoing routine procedures with a very low mortality rate. I guess there is a perfect balance in nature isn't there? There was a kid who died from a tonsillectomy several years ago in our health system. I guess he canceled out the lady I met who beat liver cancer(I've only seen one person beat liver cancer in 14 years).

I always see a steady stream of clergymen filing in the hospital but those(patients) who are prayed upon leave through the back door at the same rate of those who aren't. Go figure.

OTC said...

Ryan wrote: {I was raised in a church that taught that the catholic church was a trick of satan. I was taught that catholics put the pope above god, and mary above jesus. I was taught that nuns were whores for the priests. I was taught that catholics could get away with any sin they pleased as long as they confessed it. Is this the right religion?

On the other hand, the catholics used to teach that "extra ecclesia non salus est"....outside the church there is no salvation. Is this the right religion?}

Yes, I am Catholic but everything you just wrote is a lie. If any Christian person actually said such things they are to be pitied for fabricating lies. I can’t imagine that anyone with a shred of common sense would believe such ridiculous nonsense. (yes, please go ahead and make your predictable joke on this last sentence)

Ryan wrote: { otc, I can almost hear your weeping and sobbing; your mindless drivel about your saviour; gasping out your thanks and praise.
Listening to you makes us all glad that we are not you. }

I’m not sobbing now Ryan and I can honestly reply that I am also glad not to be like you. Despite saying this, please understand that I don’t consider myself better than you in any way; I’m just blessed beyond comprehension.

Billybee wrote: “There is something you are hiding and trying to cover it up with your self-rightous posturing.}

What makes you think I’m self-righteous when I explained above how I lived my entire life being the complete opposite? I have nothing to hide anymore. Nor did I say or even imply anywhere that I have complete victory over my sinful nature. My sins are small compared to before but they keep me humble and with God’s help, I continue to strive for what He wants of me. Nothing self-righteous about a man who admits to wanting to be like his Father in heaven…

Astreja said...

OTC, I see no functional difference between your self-flagellating ravings and the "MeMeMeMEEEE" prayer of the Pharisee in Luke 18:11.

None.

Now shut that damn closet door and stop screeching out your silly prayers in public.

speck said...

OTC,

"...it's not a lie, if YOU believe it.."
- George Castansa

speck said...

OTC sez:
"...What makes you think I’m self-righteous when I explained above how I lived my entire life being the complete opposite?..."

Billybee sez;

I wonder if the people who have to be around you on a daily basis would agree with your self-description...?

boomSLANG said...

OTC...If any Christian person actually said such things they are to be pitied for fabricating lies.

Yes, yes!......all those *other* "Christian people"?..well, they've got it ALL wrong; they are deceived! But NOT me!..I've got it right, right, right! YES!...me, me, me, me, MEEEEE!..I know the one Truth! But I am not special; I'm humble!

Yeah, sure, pal.

OTC said...

Luke 18:11 The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, 'O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity - greedy, dishonest, adulterous - or even like this tax collector.

Nowhere in this prayer do you find the Pharisee admitting that he is guilty of any sins. This is the sin of pride or spiritual arrogance. From all evidence presented, this is the group of person’s you belong to Astreja (since you don't believe in God, then sin doesn't exist for you).

The “self-flagellating” you use to describe me is because you are able to see that I do admit of my guilt. Anyone that sincerely admits of their guilt before God can compare their prayers to the tax collector of Luke18:13.

Luke 18:13 But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, 'O God, be merciful to me a sinner.'

What grace for those of us that are blessed to be able to admit of their guilt and truly repent because our Lord has heard our plea. Luke18:14 attests to it:

Luke 18:14 I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted."

Boomslang, please let me help clarify for you.

This is what was said of the Catholic church (I’ll put my clarifying comments in brackets):

1) pope above god (A created being above God? You find this credible?)

2) mary above jesus (A created being above God? You find this credible?)

3) nuns were whores for the priests (A faith that acknowledges the sanctity of mind and body that would actually endorse such a vile statement. You find this credible?)

4) catholics could get away with any sin they pleased as long as they confessed it (Someone that confesses with the full intent in their heart to sin again has not confessed in sincerity of heart. God always knows the truth. You find this statement credible?)

5) outside the church there is no salvation (A faith that if founded on the humility that was taught by Jesus would never make lofty, arrogant claims about the salvific state of any person. You would never be able to find such a statement as a dogmatic truth in the Catholic faith.)

Listen to your heart Boomslang, the truth is not glazed over with lies, it’s the truth! I really don’t understand how such ridiculous statements could be accepted by anyone that has read and believes the Gospels. My apologies if I sound condescending if you people actually believed this stuff about the Catholic faith when you were members of another Christian church. If you're ever so inclined, I’d really recommend you actually look at the Catholic faith before accepting such odd statements.

OTC

SamiB said...

OTC understand that most of the people who visit this site have been associated, at one time or another, with some form of religious corporation which they have rejected. Hence they are familiar with every self-satisfied sermon you can come up with and have heard it all before.

You really are wasting your time here. And surely you cannot deny the arrogance in your coming to this site and spouting all this religious hooey to people who have no interest in hearing it.

In fact, many of the fine people here have lost contact with friends and family in the process of separating themselves from the church and I can't believe that someone would sacrifice those things unless they are completely sure of their convictions.

Your posts are also very patronising and self satisfied in tone, maybe you don't intend this to be so but there is no denying it. Your references to prayers, psalms & scriptures are also completely out of context on this discussion board.

Why don't you take the energy that you seem to be directing into this EX-christian website and try channeling it into something more constructive. Like questioning why your catholic religion racks up more cases of sexually disfunctional priests than any other? Why your vatican remains one of the wealthiest corporations in the world and yet outside it's gates there are children going without food and clothing?

Why homosexuality is still regarded as a sin by catholics when Jesus preached toleration and love?

Ask why your church values the mighty dollar to such an extent that the vatican is filled with gold and operates in big commercial business when the the book you live by preaches that coveting wealth is a sin?

Why your missionaries are telling people in poverty stricken countries not to use condoms when AIDS is spreading like wildfire and more pregnancies mean more starving children?

speck said...

Catholic / Schmatholic.

This supernatural ping-pong is making me dizzy.

No proofy = No believey

boomSLANG said...

OTC..."Boomslang, please let me help clarify for you."

Lol! Yes!....you'll "clarify" for me, which, again, resolves to.....

Yes, yes!......all those *other* "Christian people"?..well, they've got it ALL wrong; they are deceived! But NOT me!..I've got it right, right, right! YES!...me, me, me, me, MEEEEE!..I know the one Truth! But I am not special; I'm humble!

And again I say....yeah, SURE, pal.

(in other words, you completely missed the point, dipshit)

Astreja said...

OTC: "The “self-flagellating” you use to describe me is because you are able to see that I do admit of my guilt."

But what have you done, in real life, to pay back any real people your alleged 'sins' may have injured?

In other words... If you somehow actually hurt someone else with your bad behaviour, what reparations have you made to them? Anything less than full repayment of mundane debts is just declaring bankruptcy and hiding behind the skirts of one's god.

And if you didn't hurt anyone but yourself with your wild youthful behaviour... You're alive. Let it go, man! Stop dragging fictional parental units into this, stop dredging up how you were Back Then, and move on. Yeesh.

"...This is the sin of pride or spiritual arrogance. From all evidence presented, this is the group of person’s you belong to Astreja (since you don't believe in God, then sin doesn't exist for you)."

'Sin' is a nonsense word, because it's ludicrous to conceive of the actions of a mortal somehow hurting an omnipotent god.

And 'spiritual arrogance' is just plain silly. Again, how can a mortal be arrogant in the eyes of a god? Concepts such as hubris were written into the body of world mythology by other humans, not by anyone possessing the lofty P.O.V. of a deity.

However, bad behaviour is quite real. I make it a point of personal honour to avoid doing things that I would not wish done to me.

Regarding your presence here... I'm with SamiB. Get off this board and expend the same amount of time lobbying for reform within the RCC. Vote with your wallet and your feet; save real lives. Until they've cleaned up their act, every penny you give them is another drop of blood on your head.

OTC said...

Boomslang, no need to be rude sir. I guess I was just hoping you'd be able to see the inconsistency of those claims made about the Catholic Church when compared against the words in the Gospels.

I thought that with basic rationalizing skills, despite your disbelief, the inconsistencies would still be visible to you. But they apparently are not.

It has nothing to do with everyone else being wrong and has everything to do with whether the statements make any sense.

Even you people that disbelieve know that the pope (ie. Peter) is not greater than Jesus in the Gospels. Why would you believe that this is what the Catholic Church teaches? It's mind-boggling to me how you could take my simple explanation and twist it into a childish "I know better than them game!". I'm only talking about the facts and the facts are that none of those statements have any validity, even for disbelievers.

Why couldn't a disbeliever be able to say:

Claim 1) "pope above god"

To Claim 1), a disbeliever should still be able to say:

A- I've examined the Catholic beliefs and found that this is never stated in any way.

B- I've examined the Gospels and found the verse that states that ‘Jesus would build His Church on Peter’ does in fact exist.

C- From "A" and "B", I have confirmed that Claim 1) about Catholicism, "pope above god", is false, therefore the claim made was a lie.

D- Despite the results of my examination, because I do not believe any of it, this observation does not in any way impact my disbelief. I will continue to disbelieve because the claims made by Christianity are too grand for my mind, but, I can at least admit that those claims made about Catholicism are false.


This is what I thought the mind of an atheist would still be able to do, but I was wrong. The same could be done with the other claims.

OTC

SamiB said...

OTC - I can assure you that the reason I am a non-believer is certainly not because the "claims made by Christianity are too grand for my mind" but rather because the claims made by christianity are too far fetched and ridiculous for my mind to even reasonably entertain.

Also, if you insist on hanging around this site cutting and pasting tracts from the bibble as your responses to intelligent argument, then expect to receive the odd 'dip-shit' credit or worse.

Unknown said...

sillywhispers said,

"The Jewish and Christian God is every bit as evil and you know it...The book gets extremely brutal and is amoral."

If you read the Scriptures with an open mind and try understand it you'll actually find God to be very fair and just. God slated 7 groups of people for destruction, He gave them 400 years to get themselves right while the Jews were in Eqypt. Amongst these groups were other groups too that the Jews weren't to wipe out. Now for its interpretation: God mentions their 5 sins which had reached its full, in other words they would never have repented even if given the chance, He is merciful. The 5 sins were that of Adultery, Sacrificing children to Molech, Homosexuality, Blasphemy, and Beastiality. The number 7 is symbolic of fullness and completeness, its symbolic of encompassing all of mankind. It's a prophetic description of why Yahweh will come again soon and wipe man off the earth, those that do not want to know Him. Sounds fair to me. There is more adultery today than ever before, both physically and spiritually (serving other gods) one of which is Catholicism. Those groups slept with temple prostitutes and they sacrificed the unwanted children by placing the child in the arms of a red hot statue of Molech, its exactly the same today with abortion, sacrificing unwanted children in the name of convenience. Homosexuality, self-explanatory. Anything that's not taught in Truth is blasphemy, as well as taking Yahweh lightly. And when Man join together in just over 18 years time to follow the Beast, as mentioned in Scripture, it's called beastiality. Then with Noah, out of everyone in the land (Middle East area, errantly translated as "whole earth" in English versions) at the time they were the only ones in a relationship with Yahweh, the rest of mankind had grown violent and very evil. By the way it was a local flood, caused by the an asteroid landing 900 miles off the coast of Madagascar, proved by scientists (Dallas Abbot and Dee Breger) and the Burckle crater has been dated to the time of Noah. The entire Middle East basin was covered in water. The whole earth would have felt its effects but the water really stuck in the Middle East. www.wyattmuseum.com for the proof of the ark and other relevant things.

Sounds very fair to me, if Man does not want to be in a relationship with Yahweh, does He not have the right to end their lives. He is patient, but only for so long.

ryan said,

"...what we need is a way of life that involves self-respect and self-determination"

Today this is called the moral code of Political Correctness which stems from Socialist Secular Humanism, which has made being judgemental a sin. In other words Man has seared their consciences, they have sacrificed justice, common sense and personal accountability to advance this moral code. Tolerance has been demanded at the expense of discernment and rational objectivity. Without the ability to be judgemental Man no longer has a moral filter, thus no ability to judge between right and wrong. With all the information in the world society still cannot process the information to make wise decisions. It's either Yahweh or Man.

OTC said,

"You have not, in any way, shape or form, demonstrated one scriptural reference that proves that celebrating the birth of Christ (Christmas), the Resurrection of Christ (Easter), or that the 40 days of sacrifice after Jesus' baptism (Lent) are condemned?"

Catholicism stems from paganism. Catholic churches are saturated in pagan symbols. Yahweh mentions many times there is no other God than Him, but yet the Catholic church have glorified Mary, a direct violation of His commandments. Even the sign of the cross stems from paganism, He died on a stauros, an upright pole. The cross symbol stems from the crossing of the sun over the equator at the vernal spring equinox to celebrate the divine conception of Ashtar (Easter). Easter, Christmas, Lent all stem from man-made traditions as it's filled with pagan rituals. Yes celebrating the Passover is important, as well as Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, Sevens, Trumpets, Atonement and Tabernacles. By substituting His Feast for man-made feasts is to be condemned. I gave sufficient information to condemn those pagan festivals. And since when do the self-ordained Popes have the right to substitute the Sabbath Rest from Saturday (Friday sunset to Saturday sunset) to Sunday (in honour of the sun-gods), for even Yahushua says He came not to abolish the Torah?

boomSLANG said,

"'Sorry, but "His laws" are completely irrelevant. If the biblical heaven exists, it is riddled with people who broke these "laws" in their mortal lives(because "everyone is a sinner"). Of course, they "repented", and they now get to "sit"(?).."float"(?)..or whatever, side-by-side with "Yahweh." So, in the end, "His laws" don't matter one single bit; only belief matters. Nothing else. Please reexamine what it is you believe, m'kay?"

Exactly, there's nothing you can do to earn his gift of eternal life. We are all sinners, only difference is some of us have acknowledged it and have formed a relationship with Him in the pursuit of knowing Him and becoming ever more like Him. The Laws are still relevant. You should read www.theownersmanual.net to help explain the Law to you. The Scriptures do mention that if a person continues to sin then they haven't shown true repentance. We are not perfect, we still have lapses in judgement but it's important that we repent and continue to walk with Yahweh.

Sorry for the long post.

ryan said...

This is just too good to be true. otc and m going at it. I like nothing better than to see two xristians brawling over their superstition. Let's sit back and watch. This is better than watching people fuck.

And m, your response to me stinks to high heaven. I talked about self-determination and self-respect. These are things that the xristian hates. Your attempt at theology would be funny if it didn't smell so bad. Your stench is exceeded only by your stupidity.

What the fucking hell do you mean
about "judging between right and wrong". Listen, asswipe, the difference between right and wrong is for me to decide, not for little jesus freaks like you who can't grow up. This is called freedom of thought. This is what the jewzoo takes away from you and it takes years to recover.

And no, god is not "fair and just". Your concepts of fairness and justice are taken from jew religion to begin with. This is called circularity. Can you say "logic"? Hmm? The jews were not any better than the ethnic groups that surrounded them. If you study ancient cultures, you will see that there is no "better" or "worse".

And you have the brass balls to use an expression like "open mind". You little prick, we are here because we read the bible with an open mind. We saw that the bible was put together by savages and barbarians.

I find you beneath my contempt, all of you xristian baboons. We here are all happy to live in a culture where we can live our own lives and think our own thoughts, and not be fucked with by witch doctors with their beads and rattles. You want to put us on our knees. I really wish you would all go to some little third-world hellhole where you would be more comfortable. There are lots of places in this world where freedom is despised. Pick one.

ryan said...

And just one more little thing. I agree with m: catholicism is very evil and a just god would wipe out all catholics and plunge them into hell forever. otc, you are a very bad person; m just said so. You are nothing more than a pagan. god is just.

speck said...

Thank you, RYAN!!!!!
You are my new hero...! ;)

ryan said...

Well billy, I must say that I am flattered. I do not think that I can claim heroic status, but I am pleased nevertheless.

As Albert Camus once wrote: "Heroism and sanctity do not interest me. What interests me is being a man".

As I re-read the posts, I was reminded of what m wrote; the choice is between yahweh and man. Who the fuck does he think he is to dictate such a choice? We must choose between being men or serving the jewgod? I choose my manhood, and the jewgod be damned.

While I am in the mood for quoting, I am amused at one of Nietzsche's best jokes; that christianity is the jew's revenge. Through christianity, the Mediterranean world, all of Europe, and the greater part of this world learned shame; humility; guilt; fear, all of the jew's finest qualities. These are the people who thought that their god wanted them to cut off part of their son's cocks. Throughout their sordid history, the jew has been proud of his emasculation.

No billy, I am neither a nazi nor an anti-semite. I simply encourage anyone reading this to ditch the jew and his foul little god and to reclaim his mind, his heart, and his conscience. These things belong to him, not to the jew.

SamiB said...

Oh dear, it seems this thread has become a honeypot for the fundamentally deluded.

OTC said...

M wrote: {the Catholic church have glorified Mary}

Here’s a little explanation provided by a Catholic friend in Christ:

Veneration of the saints, including Mary, is not worship. Catholics worship God alone.

Do Catholics worship the saints? To worship someone is to acknowledge that the one who is worshiped is divine, is God. Sometimes we can confuse cultural gestures of reverence for gestures of worship. In doing so, we often judge not as God does, by what is in the heart, but rather by appearances (see Jn 8:15, Is 11:3).

Catholics hold saints in esteem because they are such wonderful images or mirrors of Christ. Paul several times exhorts his readers to be imitators of him: "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ" (1 Cor 11:1, also Phil 3:17, 1 Cor 4:16).

Mary is the first saint, and holds high honor today, as she did in the early Church. Over the course of history, devotion to Mary has taken many forms, and even has been confused with worship. Church teaching has consistently placed Mary in the company of the saints, however.

Devotion to the saints comes back to the theology of image: Christ is God's image, the saints are Christ's image. We honor them because we desire to imitate them. We pray to them the same as we call upon earthly friends to do a favor for us. This too, is scriptural. In Acts we read of Peter and John going up to the Temple for prayer and encountering a beggar. Peter says to him, "I have neither silver nor gold, but what I do have I give you: in the name of Jesus Christ the Nazorean, rise and walk" (Acts 3:6). Peter makes it clear that he has the power of Christ in his possession.

To be sure, it is Jesus who heals, but Peter holds the right to extend that power. The same can be said of Paul. In Acts 19:11-12 we read, "So extraordinary were the mighty deeds God accomplished at the hands of Paul that when face cloths or aprons that touched his skin were applied to the sick, their diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them." These texts are the basis of the Catholic practice of asking saints to help us, of honoring (not worshiping) the bodies and relics of saints.

boomSLANG said...

"M", said...Exactly, there's nothing you can do to earn his gift of eternal life. We are all sinners, only difference is some of us have acknowledged it and have formed a relationship with Him in the pursuit of knowing Him and becoming ever more like Him.

This is merely equivocation, but nonetheless, I like the idea that it conflicts with OTC's worldview. 'Nothing like two "True Christians" bickering back-n-forth on an Ex-christian website.

Moving on....

"M", according to you, it was predetermined who will, and who will not, be "granted" this alleged "gift of salvation".....either that, or, one "receives" said "gift" by doing precisely what you said when you attempted to make a distinction between Christians, and non-christians. To be sure, we can see the attempt at making such a distinction when you said "only difference is", above. If you don't like the word "earn", then fine...but no matter how you cut it, the distinction between those who "receive" the "gift", and those who do not, would seemingly require action; it would require the use of our "free will". And of course, that would contradict predestination, as well as contradict any being who is presumed to be "all-loving". You cannot have it both ways.

The Laws are still relevant.

No, I'm sorry, they are not relevant...especially under predestination. If we have no "free will", then "Laws" don't matter. On the other hand, if we have "free will", then laws still don't matter, because any violation of these alleged "Laws" is pardoned(i.e.."swept under the carpet") the very second one proclaims belief in biblegod, or you prefer, decide to "walk with Yahweh".(decisions require free will)

You should read www.theownersmanual.net to help explain the Law to you.

You should read www.godisimaginary.com/ to help explain how your belief is delusional.

The Scriptures do mention that if a person continues to sin then they haven't shown true repentance.

The "scriptures do mention" that ALL people are "sinners" by their very nature. Thus, mortals cannot not "sin". That would be like telling a fish it should avoid H2O. The redactors of the bible simply painted themselves into a corner with that one.

Thus, repentence, "true", or not, is irrelevant to the "Laws" themselves. Laws are irrelevant; only belief matters.

OTC said...

Boomslang wrote: {{{"M", said...Exactly, there's nothing you can do to earn his gift of eternal life. We are all sinners, only difference is some of us have acknowledged it and have formed a relationship with Him in the pursuit of knowing Him and becoming ever more like Him.

This is merely equivocation, but nonetheless, I like the idea that it conflicts with OTC's worldview (ie. Catholic faith). 'Nothing like two "True Christians" bickering back-n-forth on an Ex-christian website.}}}

No, this does not conflict with the Catholic faith nor did I write anything that conflicts with this particular statement by “M”. Repent, believe and work at being like your Father in heaven. If He’s your father, you’ll recognize His voice in the bible; if He’s not, you’ll despise Him.

OTC

Dave8 said...

OTC: "Repent, believe and work at being like your Father in heaven."

And... how do you, a sinful mortal, understand what a God is like; further, how would you believe you could emulate a Perfect deity, in your imperfect state of being?

boomSLANG said...

Previously, "M", said...

there's nothing you can do to earn his gift of eternal life. We are all sinners, only difference is some of us have acknowledged it and have formed a relationship with Him in the pursuit of knowing Him and becoming ever more like Him.

In regards to that, OTC states:

..this does not conflict with the Catholic faith nor did I write anything that conflicts with this particular statement by “M”. Repent, believe and work at being like your Father in heaven. If He’s your father, you’ll recognize His voice in the bible; if He’s not, you’ll despise Him.[bold added]

That's odd, one guy's saying that there's "nothing you can do to earn" the alleged "gift", and another guy's saying you must "repent", "believe", and try to emulate "God", with of course, "God" being "perfect". But the bible states, unequivocately, that "Yahweh" is "Lord of Lords"...and that all mortals fall short of "Yahweh's Glory"(all mortals are imperfect) Thus, to "work at trying to be like your father in heaven" is an utter waste of time, as it is unacheivable. Not to mention that if this is something you must "work" at, then clearing you are seeking to earn your "free meal-ticket".

Get your stories straight before you come back.

Jayson said...

I know where you are coming from...I am a former pentecostal pastor, and not only did I believe this stuff, I PREACHED it and trained other people to believe it.

Did I do it because I wanted to hurt people? Not at all! I did it because I wanted to help people...Coming to the realization that I have based my life, my study and my faith in something that, even if existent, does not exist in the manner that I thought is very scary.

I am going through what you are as we speak...it is hard to not be afraid, but the bigger fear is the fact that we were buffaloed!

jimearl said...

This seems to be the post that won't quit.

Jayson, congrats on your new found way of living in the real world. You say we were buffaloed and you are right. The sad thing is that the people that did the buffaloing were sincere and probably are still doing the same thing.

Religious belief is the hardest thing to shake but it can and does happen and it seems to be on larger scale these days than ever before. That is exciting to me. As for the fear, that too shall pass.

One day you will look back and shake your head in disbelief that you could have ever been so gullible. It gets better and better every day. Cheers, Jim Earl

ryan said...

jim, this post may not quit, but I fear I must. As Hercule Poirot would say, "My interest is dwindling".

It has been fun listening to these crackpots, but I gotta be off.

Hi to billy. I am in here pretty regularly. Hope to see you around.

And just one more little dig at otc: He is sensitive that his band of papist piss ants actually taught that only catholics are saved. And yes, otc, they actually said "extra ecclesia non salus est" which means , verbatim, "outside the church no salvation is". This changed after vatican II, along with other pieces of cherished bullshit, like eating fish on friday. Many demominations occasionally respond to the ridicule that they have brought onto themselves and try to clean it up.

About the other things I said: yes, of course, it was bullshit. You missed the fucking point. I was trying to demonstrate that religion is full of--what did you say--"ridiculous nonsense". Each church insists that they are right, and that the others are either dead wrong, or at least not quite as good.

The point that you missed is that the nonsense I learned as a boy is no worse than the nonsense you continue to preach. It is all bullshit, no more, no less. You were angered and insulted when you heard anti-catholic slander, and that is how we often feel when your kind comes in here to preach about sin and salvation.

So go back to your bells and smells.

OTC said...

Hi Ryan,
"outside the church, no salvation" means outside the Church of Christ. There is one Church and it is the Church of Christ. Catholics believe that we have the fullness of truth and that being Catholic means that we have access to all the sacraments that Jesus established for His Church.

Just because other Christians don't accept all the truth, they may still very well be members of the Church of Christ. In other words, they may very well be in a state of grace with God. All Christian persons are in a less than perfect communion with God's Church, Catholics and other sects alike, the difference is that we Catholics have access to more graces to sustain us during our journey home, to God.

Ryan wrote: {About the other things I said: yes, of course, it was bullshit.}

The fact that you are now stating that, "of course, it was bullshit", is a very poor rebuttal. You made it very clear that those things you mentioned were taught to you when you were member of another Christian denomination. You did not take those statements from your imagination; you took it from what you were taught. Of course I know that you would consider it "bullshit", you consider everything related to Christianity as "bullshit". This is a moot point. The POINT is that these statements of yours are common from many non-Catholic Christian sects and they are complete lies. Lies that can be demonstrated by simply talking with honesty to those that are Catholics, like myself. In complete honesty, I have explained to all of you that we Catholics do NOT worship Mary and yet, no one believes me. So, what can a person do when others make claims of knowledge about what goes on in my own heart. If we Catholics tell you that we only worship God and people still say that we do, then they are guilty of sins of extreme pride and arrogance. This is true because they are making claims of knowing the inner most part of my being, my heart. They would need to be omniscient, no?

I hope you find peace Ryan, you seem to be a very angry person. Whatever was done to you, God can undo it, just ask Him.

True joy & peace are with Christ,
OTC

webmdave said...

OTC,

Do you pray to Mary? Do you pray to the saints?

Are Mary and the saints omnipresent that they are able to hear and answer the prayers of millions of Catholic believers? Do Mary and the saints have supernatural powers?

Some Roman Catholics freely admit to worshiping Mary> CLICK HERE

Phrase it anyway you want -- devotion, veneration, whatever -- it's worship. Mary is a dead woman, but you have elevated her to supernatural status, just like the man Jesus (if he ever existed) was elevated to godhood in the imaginations of religious fanatics.

Here's a few more "lies" against your most precious and holy mother: Mary Worship | Worship of Mary | Adoration of Mary | Make room for Mary

What's next, Marc (er, I mean OTC)? Another rant about Garbanzo bean miracles?

AtheistToothFairy said...

OTC [Over The Counter--xtian] wrote:
Just because other Christians don't accept all the truth, they may still very well be members of the Church of Christ. In other words, they may very well be in a state of grace with God. All Christian persons are in a less than perfect communion with God's Church, Catholics and other sects alike, the difference is that we Catholics have access to more graces to sustain us during our journey home, to God.
----
Gosh OTC that sounds like some really persuasive preaching you did here.
Let's see how great it still seems when I make a small 'god' substitution, shall we.


Just because other Zeus Followers don't accept all the truth, they may still very well be members of the Church of Zeus's Son. In other words, they may very well be in a state of grace with Zeus. All Zeus Followers are in a less than perfect communion with Zeus's Church, True Zeus Followers and other fringe Zeus sects alike, the difference is that we True Zeus followers have access to more graces to sustain us during our journey home, to God Zeus

Readers, feel free to substitute any mythical god being of your choice here, it won't make a bit of difference towards human fate, as any god has as much power towards your life and ultimate fate, as OTC's xtian god has for his own life and fate.


ATF (Who still thinks Hercules was the coolest of the ancient gods)

Bill B said...

OTC said,


"I hope you find peace Ryan, you seem to be a very angry person. Whatever was done to you, God can undo it, just ask Him."

I've been just sitting on the bleachers watching this one unfold, but after reading the above statement I just want to fucking scream. Help me OTC because I am a very angry person right now after reading your bullshit. "Just ask Him" AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!!

Steven Bently said...

OTC
"outside the church, no salvation" means outside the Church of Christ. There is one Church and it is the Church of Christ. Catholics believe that we have the fullness of truth and that being Catholic means that we have access to all the sacraments (little boys) that Jesus established for His Church.

Just because other Christians don't molest little boys, they may still very well be pedophiles.
In other words, they may very well be in a state of horneyness with little boys. All Christian persons are in a less than perfect communion with God's Church, Catholics and other sects alike, the difference is that we Catholics have access to more little penises to sustain us during our journey home, to God.

True joy & peace are with Christ, and little boys' penises."

How many (l-p's) have you had today, OTC?

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