You are not an x-Christian!

You should all be ashamed of yourselves, this is one sick site. We will all stand before Almighty God one day, whether you believe it or not. Try searching and you will find the truth, not perfect people but a perfect & loving God. I will pray for you as I know someone must have prayed for me before I found God.

None of you ever were a Christian, you have no faith, no belief, no hope and no future. You are a bunch of angry, hurting, empty people. Jesus came to take you away from all of that, but you not only reject his free gift, you through it out without even seeing any of it, how very sad. I feel sorry for you, you have no idea what you have done. He died to open a door and you closed it without ever walking in. Christians are not perfect, just forgiven and thats all it takes to be free from the fear, anger and bondage that you are in. I will pray for you, for you are truely deceived by the devil himself. The entire site is blasphemy!!!

The only chance you have is to repent and search for Jesus

Lonnie
29
Idaho

108 comments:

Roger O'Donnell said...

Nothing like the ranting of an empty headed Zealot to get the blood fizzing of a morning!

Love, hugs and meth fuled kisses a la Pastor Ted

Grandpa

Anonymous said...

Funny, but did you ever notice how a lot of "true christians" say that? "blah blah blah, you were never a christian". What a cop-out ;)

Anonymous said...

again! some goofball xian with nothing better to do than troll sites and be annoying. I wish I had that much time to waste...but then, when I have spare time, I actually have a life and things to accomplish. if the point of this rubbish was to bring us all to repentance and shame, then it was wasted time anyway.

Anonymous said...

Well Lonnie I guess it is safe to assume that you have never been an x-Christian, at least not yet.

Regarding your advice, "The only chance you have is to repent and search for Jesus" - I'm sorry to inform you that they've called off the search. It seems he's been missing now for over 2000 years.

Anonymous said...

Oh Bugger off

Anonymous said...

Oh Bugger Off

Anonymous said...

lol, God is loving? Gotta be kidding me. What a brainwash. Search for the truth? The truth is not with Christianity. The truth is what's going on right now out there that you're unaware of. Wake up and smell the coffee and stop living in delusion.

Avie said...

Are you semi-literate? I think you are. If you could read, you would see the reasons we left. And all of us, at one point in time, was a Christian. Are you so empty-headed as to believe that once a person is a Christian, they have lost all free-will of ever making the choice to leave? (Oh, sorry, poor choice of words. The answer is yes, isn't it?)

Look, the truth is that some people who are Christian come to a conclusion that it's not the right way for us, for whatever reason. And we leave because of it. It's that simple. Who are you to judge us? Why don't you leave that to your precious deity? (So sorry again for using the big words. Deity means "god".)

You'll probably never even read this. I know your kind. You're cowards, all of you. You post this garbage and then you leave, thinking, "Yay, I just did my part to convert blashemers!" But, if you are correct in your beliefs against "Almighty God", then you will be subject to more harsh judgement than us. Why? Simple, you have suceeded only in driving us further away from your god. Read your Bible. Your god punishes that sort of thing.

Anonymous said...

Your anger is not with us. Your anger is an attempt to make your beliefs seem true to yourself.

It is slowly dawning on you that your beliefs have no reality behind them, and like a child whose pacifier it taken away, you just want to cry.

Anonymous said...

Lonnie’s rant is utterly devoid of any of that famous Love™ that christians claim to hold a monopoly on. But, I do see plenty of that Christian Arrogance™ which we've come to know so well.

It's obvious he's never spent even so much as half a minute reading any of the testimonies on this site. If he had, he would have learned that many of the EX-christians on this site practiced the “faith” for longer than he may have been alive, some even as members of the clergy.

They did all the things that he says must be done in order to be “saved.” Many of us have asked, repeatedly – indeed, we begged and pleaded –– for Jesus to come into our hearts. After years, or decades, of receiving no reply, we wised up.


And, I mean “wised up” literally because, for many of us, our hunger for the truth has led us to educate ourselves in the history of how the bible was created and edited over several centuries by men with various agendas. Many of us have also studied philosophy and religion from all sides, not closing our minds to opposing viewpoints like the fundies are required to do.

Yet, Lonnie is wiser than any of us and just couldn’t resist the temptation to swoop in here and tell us how wrong we are. (Yeah, like that’s going to win any converts.) What a pathetic little man! He should be ashamed.

Audie said...

Lonnie,
Your god is a big, fat myth! I hope that one day you too will wake-the-fuck-up! and realize that, as we here have. There is no Jesus, and never was. It is you who should be ashamed. You come here, without knowing any of us, and make such idiotic statements.

Lonnie, please for the love of humanity, search yourself and ask "why do you believe?", and be honest yourself.

SpaceMonk said...

"You are not an x-Christian!"

Am too!

Anonymous said...

Lonnie:

Go blow Ted Haggard. You might have to dress up like a man first.

Satan

Anonymous said...

This guy is a one of those that is one step from strapping a bomb to his chest and killing people because his god is better than other people's god. This recent thing with Haggart has gotten me to wonder what the next scandal will be among the " good christian" folks. The good christians tell us what is bad and then they go out and do it becasue they are saved so this is supposed to make it all better we can go out and do as we please because some person that claimed to be a god committed suicide for the sins of the believers. One day maybe we will see the end to all of these hateful religions, Islam, Christians, Jews maybe one day people will just decide to care about one another and they will not need a god to tell them to do it.

jimearl said...

Lonnie, just because you believe something doesn't make it true. Everyone used to believe the world was flat. Guess what? They were all wrong. Just like you and all other religious people around the world. You are all wrong. So why don't you investigate your own belief system for flaws and then come visit us again. We will forgive you and welcome you with open arms.

Anonymous said...

For what it's worth i just want to say that not all Christians are like this. Some know better than to just blast people.

n/a said...

Lonnie, you are totally wrong. I do have hope. I hope you go away. And I do have faith that you will do so. So I have hope and faith, and yes, I do have a future. Right now I'm trying to figure out what to have for lunch, so pray for me. After lunch I will no longer be empty, and you can be happy knowing that you have helped another person who was facing a difficult decision in life.

Andrew Hawkins said...

Dear Lonnie

Thank you for your thoughts and prayers. I'm sure they will not make a difference, as God does not intervene, especially regarding our free will.

Let me address some of the points you make

Try searching.

Thanks, I have searched. I've searched harder than most. In fact all of us ex-Christians
have searched hard to find God and then searched even harder to lose him, work that one out, if you can.

None of you ever were a Christian; you have no faith, no belief, no hope and no future.

It is by grace you are saved and not by faith. So I think I was. I remember being mugged and told to hit back but I wouldn’t, as I was a Christian, so there. And by reading all the posts and ex-testimonies there are many ex-Christians on this site who were stronger Christians than me.

I have no faith, I quite agree. If you can explain how belief in the unknown can make anyone's life better I'll entertain your thoughts more readily. I have hope and I certainly have a future that is brighter and clearer than yours. Your future is dictated not by your own actions but is surrendered to a deity. That makes you a helpless pawn with, as I see it, no free will.

Angry, empty, hurting people.

My lack of faith in a deity means that I have no anger. My life is full and I got over the hurt of losing God long ago. In fact, you seem angrier than me, and you are filled with the holy spirit.

Christians are not perfect, just forgiven and that’s all it takes to be free from the fear, anger and bondage that you are in.

Perhaps you can elaborate on "fear, anger and bondage". I just don't see how they apply to me. I think they apply more to you. You must always be afraid to forget to say that you are sorry for your sins in case you slip out of Christianity and then die and go to hell.

I will pray for you, for you are truly deceived by the devil himself.

How perfectly this religion has you in its grasp. Every way you turn you find an excuse to reinforce it. Every bit of science you read that denies the existence of God must be an answer from the devil. Can you not see how convenient this is? It is as if the bible writers created the devil so as to make their religion more successful.

Good luck in your search. By finding this site and reading the responses you have made a step in the right direction.

Theresa said...

It is pretty cool how Lonnie can read minds just like God. He "knows" none of us were really Christians, that we never really believed. Pretty arrogant of him to make that assumption. If only there was a way to step back in time to show him how wrong he is. I'd venture to say that many of us were much more devout than he and read more of the bible than he ever has.

Anonymous said...

Lonnie: "None of you ever were a Christian, you have no faith, no belief, no hope and no future. You are a bunch of angry, hurting, empty people."

Perfect example, of an arrogant theist... an absolutist who considers themselves somehow privvy to absolute knowledge of the universe. Lonnie can predict that all people on this site have no "faith", were never "true" christians, and are "all" currently hurting and empty.

Of course, since Lonnie is perfectly omniscient, they can prescribe the "perfect" solution... their religion/god.

So, we are all hurting, but Lonnie thinks we should be chastized further in order to "help" us. Hey Lonnie, in your most omniscient view, if a child comes up to you and suggests they were sexually molested... is it your modus operandi to slap the child and tell them they are liars and were never really capable of telling the truth anyway?

Anonymous said...

It's ok, you're all going to burn in Hell anyways!!! Hahaha feel the flames!!! I made my own religion by the way. The religion of "Athiests are fags and Christians are hags."

boomSLANG said...

'Careful guys, let's not upset Lonnie by castigating him/her for their beliefs, 'k? Yes, let's make sure we show the same diplomacy/sensitivity that they have shown towards us. We certainly don't want to come off as absolutist and condescending to Lonnie, and other Christians, as in a way to insult their intelligence. After all, he/she is just advocating the positive aspects of the Bible's teachings. We should try harder to deliver our rebutals with the utmost care. After all, Lonnie is defending the most logical worldview , despite he/she provided not one iota of evidence for said "belief".

Sincerely, your formerly-Chrisitian friend, boomslang.

freeman said...

Sorry boomSLANG,

Lonnie, you are not a "true" christian! I have never met a "true" christian.

Chris Shotwell said...

Funny how 90% of posts from Christians on this site are full of grammatical errors. Yes, we "through" our faith out the window.

Anonymous said...

I'm having tacos for dinner tonight, and you're not!!!

So there!!!

Anonymous said...

I'm going to be 25 on Friday. I hope I'm not that stupid when I make 29...

Anyway, he recited the whole Christian spiel down to the letter. I used to always rant against apostates with that same goddamn speech...

Christians are nothing if not predictable!

Go have a one night stand with Ted Haggard, Lonnie. It might do you some good!

Nvrgoingbk said...

Despite the fact that this may be a complete waste of my time due to the fact that you will probably never read any of the responses given to your generic post, I will go ahead and respond anyway...

First of all, you tiny little man, how presumptious of you to assume that we are not Ex-Christians. How silly and small of your narrow little mind to conjure up such speculation.

This site was established to support folks who could no longer, in good conscience, call themselves Christians after finding through years of questioning, soul searching, prayer and research that the Bible and Christianity are false. This site was established for the purpose of consoling those of us who could no longer find solace in the den of confusion called "Church" and could no longer turn a blind eye to the failed prophecies of Jesus, the contradictions, atrocities, and scientific impossiblities proposed in the Bible, the hypocrisy among believers, church abuse, fraud, and sexual misconduct, and the suffering witnessed around the world. THis site was created for those of us who could no longer live with the mental torment that accompanies Christianity as an anvil tied to one's neck.

His gift is not "free" as you so eloquently state. Jesus himself gave different people different ways to be saved. He told one that he should follow the commandments, he told another to sell all he had to the poor, he supposedly states in John 3:16 that all those who believe will be saved. Paul states that it is by grace ALONE, while James refutes that notion and most adamantly warns Christians that faith without works is DEAD!!! No, little man, Jesus' "gift" is not free. It comes with a huge price to one's mental and emotional makeup.

I am a parent and would never expect my child to believe in me despite the fact that they've never seen me, have been raised by another mother, never heard my audible voice, only has a book of rules and prose left for him to follow that I had other people write over a period of thousands of years, never visited my child, never answered his cries, never held him or sung him to sleep...I would not then leave him with the choice to believe in me or fry in Hell simply because his rational mind (that I gave him) could not. You see, this "gift" is not a gift at all. This "get-out-of-jail-free card" is a disgusting way of controlling the masses through reward of Heaven or punishment of Hell.

You Christians expect us to dismiss all the absurdities and contradictions in your Holy book, your corrupt leaders, violent Christian history that includes rape, torture, slavery, and more, hypocrisy among present day followers, and the findings of our own diligent research. You expect us to dismiss all this and take on faith what you shout from the pulpits despite the fact that your own logic prevents you from being able to dismiss all of the despicable tenents of Islam and take by faith the claims that Muslims make. How do you know you are not in err? Why is your religion the ONLY key to salvation? What is it about the Islamic faith that you can not accept as "Truth"? Is it the violence? Well, you've got plenty of that. Is it the wacky stories? YOu've got plenty of those. Is it the improbability of Muhammad being the final prophet? I'm sure millions around the world who DO NOT subscribe to the faith of Jesus would point out the improbability of your prophet being the right one as well. Is it the the suicide bombings? Well as of a couple of hundred years ago Christians cited the Bible for justification for keeping slaves, surpressing women, killing American Indians and "witches" and any number of atrocities you can find out about through a complete study of U.S. History and the "faith" of the first settlers. What is it about ALL OTHER FAITHS that you just can not accept? Why is your God-man the ONLY WAY? Why aren't other God-men just as worthy of worship? Why isn't Mithras, Buddha, or Krishna deserving of as much respect as your Jesus? Oh, you just scoff at such ideas don't you? Never mind the fact that the stories and the words and ideas of Jesus can be found in texts much older than the Bible belonging to faiths other than yours. Ironic isn't it? That would mean that your Savior BORROWED the sayings of wise men that had come before him wouldn't it? Being that he is supposed to be the son of God, one would expect to find some HOLY SHIT, ONE-OF-A-KIND, UNIQUE ONLY TO JEEBUS, words of wisdom, but alas, it's is only recycled wisdom handed down throughout the ages by men who knew these universal truths: TREAT OTHERS WITH RESPECT, DON'T STICK YOUR DICKIE DOO IN MRS. BETTY LOU IF YOU DON'T WANT HER HUSBAND TO FUCK WITH YOU, KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF OTHER PEOPLE'S SHIT OR YOU MIGHT GET SHANKED, ETC. ETC. ETC. Did I get those right?

I am finished with you now. Run along now and compare the World Religions. Study the origins of your faith, the history of the church, the development of your Bible...Search out the origins of your pagan holidays, your pagan "Sabbath",the truth behind your "rapture" doctrine. Find out how Catholic you really are and just how much Rome influences your beliefs and customs every day. Do all that and come back. Perhaps then you will come back with less hostility toward those of us who are fearless enough to look your religion in the eye and say, "NO MORE!"

Anonymous said...

Boom is right, everyone.

Don't make fun of Lonnie. It's not nice to tease retards.

Anonymous said...

" Boom is right, everyone.

Don't make fun of Lonnie. It's not nice to tease retards."

Ha, ha...you guys are a blast!

When I was reading Lonnie's post, I could almost see his read face, blood pumping to his hot head, the steam of anger coming out of his ears.

How come Jesus hasn't changed his anger into patience? I am sorry Lonnie. Jesus lied to you. He has no power to change you. None.

Anonymous said...

You know evolutions been pretty much proven right. Even christian scientist will tell you this. And when a christian scientist does tell you this ask him: "well dosent that go against everything in the bible?"

Its easy to have faith in something when you get to be the rebel fighting for a cause. Thats the only reason you even believe. So you can fight the bad guys.

Anonymous said...

ZOMG no xian has ever said this before!!!!111one

Anonymous said...

Lonnie: delivering yet another "Doppler Effect Post" where he comes screaming in with some high pitch screed that fades away as he returns to his psuedocomfy "blankie" world.

Yup Lonnie, just keep jumping up and down, cover your ears, and keep screaming

ME LOVE JESUS!
YOU BAD!
ME LOVE JESUS!
YOU BAD!

And just because YOU said it, we'll all believe.

Anonymous said...

I've heard many fundys and preachers alike say, "God knows what is in everybodys heart!" Well if that were true then, God already knew that the Milkman in PA was going to blow the little Omish girls brains out, God could have stopped that event, he could have made that idiot have a stroke or a heart attack, and no one would have even known that God had interfered, But NO! God chose not to interfere so now we have people suffereing for no f..king reason thanks to your phony Bible God.

If God knows what is in everybodys Heart, then he would have told Pastor Ted Haggard what he was doing was wrong, but Ted had been doing that for over 3 years, Ted had 3 years to tell the congrgation that what he was doing was wrong, but he waited until he got caught with his pants down.


Lonnie, you come on here spewing your Jesus feces, you're no different than Ted Haggard or Jim Bakker, or Jimmy Swaggard, you're a brainwashed fundy, sick demented little boy.

Shannon said...

I don’t know if this would be the right thing to do. I’ve learned a lot from the comments of letters like these. But it would be kind of amusing to set up on the ‘letters to the webmaster’ with a Concerned Christian button where once it was clicked it would go to a list of typical comments that they could select from such as:

You were never real (true) Christians!

You all are going to hell!

Blasphemy!

I’m so sad for you.

God’s a callin; you’re just not listening.

Jesus loves.

Satan’s deceived you!

Repent before it is to late.

I’d really like to talk to you, personally. Here is my e-mail:

Excreta….

Anonymous said...

So, do all Christians get their dicks sucked and pussies licked by homosexual prostitutes? Or is it just the "true Christians"?

Steven Bently said...

Rev. Lonnie said,
"Christians are not perfect, just forgiven."

Could you kindly give us reference to the exact scripture and verse of that statement?


Lonnie: "as I know someone must have prayed for me before I found God."

Lonnie you must have been one-more mean s.o.b., before you got saved, huh?

How many people have you killed?

How many old ladies and babies have you raped?

Did you chop your victims up after you bludgeoned them to death?

Did you eat the victims after you have killed them?

How many armed robberies have you committed?

Did you worship Satan and his league of angels on a daily basis?

You see Lonnie, this is what we Atheists do, everyday!

We Hate God, we dispise Jesus, and prayer, we worship Satan our Lord and drink upon his blood everyday.

Our goal and mission is to go out and destroy GOD!!! and JESUS and we will succeed!!!! GRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!

You see Lonnie, we do none of that! You've been deceived by your preacher and your family, you've fell for the greatest lie ever sold!

The majority of Atheists I know lead a much purer life than any Christians that I know.

It's you Lonnie, that has it all wrong, we've said the same things that you've said before from our own self-rightous Ivory Tower!

Go crawl back into your Jesus shell comfort zone for about 20 years and you may live long enough to see that it was "you" all along that got fooled!

dead__fish said...

Hey Sweetie,

Jesus called. He wants his religion back. Seems you'll have gone and fucked it up beyond all recognition. maybe you should do your homework and find out just exactly where all those crazy beliefs came from. I would start with the Egyptian Book of the Dead. Ahhhh....by the way, that was written BEFORE the high priest Jesus and his wife Mari Magdelene were even born!

Piprus said...

Fee, fie, fum, foll,
I smell the blood of a fundie troll.

To be specific, Lonnie-the-fundimbecile, I am anything but angry, hurting, or empty. I'm just no longer a christian. You quote all or most of those little quips I too learned, years ago, and of course that has no value here. Jesus didn't die for me, because he never lived in the first place. He is a fiction. So go ahead and pray Lonnie-boy, knock yourself out. When you finally learn the truth of your nonsensical doctrines, come back and join us.

Anonymous said...

Oh HOLY CRAP!!!

That was the most convincing position I've read in quite some time... He just recruited me!

AAAuuuuurrrrrggggghhhhh!!!!!!

DAMN! Now I have to get dressed up, go to church and become a hypocrite.... DAMN DAMN DAMN!!!!

webmdave said...

Here you go Shannon: Cliche Answers Christians use when faced with Ex-Christians or other Non-Believers .

Anonymous said...

I'll never understand why God would have to send someone to die for all our sins. It just doesnt make sense. If God wanted to forgive us of all our sins, he could do it with a snap of the finger. There's no reason why he would have to send an innocent man to die. It's all just a bunch of drama.

Anonymous said...

Hello, Lonnie. Almost everything hat can be said has already be said in both eloquent and passionate ways, but what the heck, I just want to respond to your statement.

Not that it matters, as you will never read this. You have clearly not thought about this for more than the time it took you to type this letter - in other words, not long, since it is 100% cliche. You have been fed this tripe and you vomit it at us now.

Unfortunately for your effort, we are all either ex-Christians, or thoroughly inoculated by knowledge, reason and insight. Christianity is bunk, it´s followers, deceived. Simple, pat.

Okay. Step by step.

"You should all be ashamed of yourselves, this is one sick site."

Why should we be ashamed of gathering together and celebrating our freedom from your silly and painful beliefs together? It is a very happy occasion to gather over. Maybe one day you will experience it yourself. And a sick site? How? Because we are vocally non-believer? Maybe you should talk to the goatse man about what is sick.

Actually, what I find sick are apologetic sites that defend genocide and intolerance as godly.
Like GodHatesFags, for instance.

"We will all stand before Almighty God one day, whether you believe it or not."

Says who? You? Who are you, little man? What the hell do you know? Let me spell it out for you: You don´t know shit. If you did, you would not be doing what you are doing.

Imbecile.

"Try searching and you will find the truth, not perfect people but a perfect & loving God."

We did search, and we found not a perfect and loving god, but a deeply flawed and loveless false god. Things went their natural way from then on.

"I will pray for you as I know someone must have prayed for me before I found God."

Prayer is futile. For evidence of that I refer you to... the world. If prayer did anything, the world would not be as it is.
Example: Neva Rogers, who got her brains blown out while she was praying. That´s a goddamned effective reality check right there. (Sorry Neva.. just making a point to the fucktard).

"None of you ever were a Christian,"

One day, after you have left your current shit behind you, someone will tell you that. And boy, will you feel stupid. We practically all were Christians here, shithead. Deconverting is not easy... but it was necessary and inevitable.

"you have no faith, no belief, no hope and no future."

That´s about the size of it, Jethro. All of our hopes and beliefs extend only to the life we have now. We indeed have no future beyond our death. Neither do you... well, except maybe as some lovely plants, a couple of thousand assorted insects and some billion bacteria. It´s like reincarnation, only REAL.

"Jesus came to take you away from all of that, but you not only reject his free gift, you through it out without even seeing any of it, how very sad."

You possess the arrogance of the truly ignorant. We were once where you are now. Maybe, someday, somehow, you will be where we are today.

"I feel sorry for you, you have no idea what you have done."

But you do, of course, since you are so much wiser than us. You stupid, ignorant, superstitious ape. We are thinking individuals. Each of us has weighed the pros and cons of Christianity and found it VERY wanting. We reject it because it is evidently not true. But here you swagger in with your atavistic brain and spout your fundie juice all over us.

Bah. But hey, stick around. You might be able to evolve some...

"He died to open a door and you closed it without ever walking in."

Christians are always making the mistake of believing a metaphor is an argument in and of itself.
Lonnie... Jesus probably lived, and if so, he died, and it is quite likely he really was nailed to a tree and slowly and painfully died, as thousands of Jews, many of whom were probably called "Jesus", did in those days.
The only difference was that some follower, perhaps not even intending to be taken literally, began to claim Jesus was still alive. And the misunderstanding persists until today. You are a victim of it. Wake the fuck up already. The story is ridiculous.

"Christians are not perfect, just forgiven and thats all it takes to be free from the fear, anger and bondage that you are in."

Christians are not perfect... fuck no, I´ll say. If it was a toaster, you wouldn´t even send it back to the factory... you´d just take it out back and shoot the poor bastard.
Honey... if one thing has become increasingly and glaringly clear, it is that Christians are absolutely not in any way free from fear, anger and (dare I say it) bondage. You are so fucked up that you think people can´t be happy unless they are AS fucked up as you are.

Is that it? Can´t you stand the fact that people could be happy without your Jesus? :)

"I will pray for you, for you are truely deceived by the devil himself. The entire site is blasphemy!!!"

I will jack off for you. The results will be the same, and I might as well get some jollies out of it. And let´s face it, what is prayer besides mental masturbation?

The devil, you say? Ah yes. Your other great image. One perfect good, the other perfect bad. Kind of like Mazda and Ahriman. But then, the Jews did like to copy from other religions.
Dude... there is no devil here, just a lot of people who, every now and then, get a little chafing from people like you. And yes, then we get angry and say mean things that make the baby Jesus cry. Like poo-poo. And caca. And existentialism.

The entire site is blasphemy... wow. That´s news. Did you know your Bible is blasphemous against all other gods? It´s true. It claims at one point that there are no gods besides yours, and man, that is pretty insulting to the hundreds of millions of other gods that were invented by mankind.

"The only chance you have is to repent and search for Jesus."

The only chance you have is to repent and die in glorious battle if you ever want to sit in Walhalla.
The only chance you have is to obey your Karma if you ever want to merge with Krishna.
The only chance you have is to follow the ways of the prophet if you want to get your seventy virgins.

Blow me, loser.

Anonymous said...

Lonnie....sorry to be ANONYMOUS but ...YOUR GOOD CHRISTIAN'S... made me that way for far too long. I didnt meet up to "their" standards. Then along comes a new pastor to our church and he had his own plot in mind. The pastor threw me out of the church and for what you ask??...Oh all knowing, caring, praying, lover of ALL people that God has created Lonnie....FOR NOT KISSING THE PASTOR'S ASS....Talk of your love and care, and of course GRACE....NOT ONE call from any of your GOOD CHRISTIANS came (the pastor made sure that happened, with a lie here and a lie there, I was gone and forgotten), even after serving that church for over 17 years as youth pastor with my OWN money and NO help!!!!!! Only to be replaced with his (self professed...SEX ADDICT) best friend...
So, Lonnie...... being anonymous became who I was, until I met others who were treated with the same kind of HATE and FILTH by SO CALLED "GOD LOVING MEN and WOMEN"...

SO Lonnie.......you wanna bite on that one...with of course all the LOVE AND CHRISTIAN GRACE you can muster up....

BUT know this....I am searching....searching for the answers as to how I could be SO FOOLED all those years, by CHRISTIANS that claimed to LOVE me. HELL, even Jesus, after turning all those money changing tables over and being so angry, NEVER THREW PEOPLE OUT!!!!! SO WHERE IS THE TRUTH.......I have not found it in church or with this Jesus you speak of.....mostly, those who have claimed to be Christians are just self serving ASSHOLES....and it sounds as if your ONE OF THE BIGGEST!!!IMO

signed......SOMEBODY

Sorry if this was a bit long and a bit off topic...

blaine said...

Lonnie, Just consider how you opened your statement to this site, "You should all be ashamed of yourselves, this is one sick site".
And now imagine if I had used this same type of language when I went into the gang territories of the Crips, Bloods, Gangster Disciples, Vice Lords and Latin Kings?
I would have not come out alive but because I showed them respect and I loved them as God's children I was allowed to walk from one hood into the next at any hour of the day or night and be completely safe. I walked into the middle of gang fights and saved a few lives or would show a youth that flipping burgers at McDonalds was better than making 1500.00/day selling drugs. I loved these, my kids.
Your message will do nothing more than to reinforce the bigotry of the religion of Christianity which has grossly misrepresented the message of Jesus and God's love. Also as a side note you should carefully read the butcher, kidnapping, murder; killing of babies, children and women; rape and land stealing passages in the Bible. And after reading them ask yourself if this represents a God who is supposed to be full of love, compassion, mercy, justice, holiness and forgiveness. If you state God's justice demands this as well as eternal burning in a Lake of Fire, then you are saying your God is a conscience lacking butcher who revels in the suffering and being man's puppet master, because justice without the quality of mercy and forgiveness is called revenge. As I have stated before,
I cannot believe in any writings which lessen the dignity of mankind and speaks more of his deprivation, wickedness and worthlessness than of his beauty, grandeur and value. I cannot believe in a God who says we were created in His image and likeness and then that same God sends His image and likeness to a fiery hell for not thinking like He does when we thought we were serving Him as he desired. How can I unquestionably accept the Bible when it lessens the majesty of a loving God and looks upon His finest creation as better dead than Bible fed.
Lonnie, my brother [yes, I am a Christian who will never forget the love of God that flowed into my heart in 1971 when I trusted Jesus. But I believe all will go to heaven but that on that winter night in 1971 I felt the presence of God], you need to make up your mind and heart on which God you believe in and whether or not He loves or hates His creation, because I cannot ever imagine that in my wildest dreams I would throw one of my kids in hell and their only sound would be the screams that echoed out, "Please daddy, don't let me stay here".
blaine

Anonymous said...

A few of the posters above said that they were once just like Lonnie. If so, then why not be more understanding of him? You've been in his position before. Set the cruelty and clever sarcasm aside and try to reach him with good reason.

Anonymous said...

Dear lonnie,,i was a 32 yr old born again christian, ive left!
Do you know what is important to me now? LIFE....just fiting in and enjoying the moment, a nice family party,,getting along and living in peace..without religion!
Try it ....life is good when your not around crazy christians! Its the simple moments in life that will let you slip out of your rut!

When you can let go of the afterlife! and get in touch with the now!! then you will understand! Do you really think God has put you here to make us all like you! Living life as it is!! is living !

p.s. I have no doubt that your life is full of disfunction and chaos!! am i right!! start living its great!

Anonymous said...

Dante: A few of the posters above said that they were once just like Lonnie. If so, then why not be more understanding of him? You've been in his position before.
Set the cruelty and clever sarcasm aside and try to reach him with good reason.

Are you kidding????
Apparently you didn't read his opening comments!!!

Reason is not a trait that he portrays!

Anonymous said...

I'll just quote a great master on this one:

"White collared conservative flashing down the street,
Pointing their plastic finger at me.

They're hoping soon my kind will drop and die,

But I'm gonna wave my freak flag high, high.

Wave on, wave on"

Anonymous said...

Jimi Hendrix is the only God!!

Anonymous said...

Lonnie

For GOD so loved the WORLD that HE gave HIS only SON so that all who believe on Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

JESUS died on the cross and rose again so that all who believe on HIM might be forgiven.

His love restored me to HIM not some hell fire preacher, in fact it wan't even a hell fire preacher who was preaching the night I first believed.

Instead of criticising these folks go away and read Luke 15 and ask God to help you understand more of HIS love

Anonymous said...

Hello Lonnie,
Why should I be ashamed of myself??
Please give one reason,.

How is this a "sick site"?
One example please

Which "almighty" god will we all stand before?
There are so many of them

I did search,, and I did find many truths, Hence my being an EX christian,

There are no "perfect" people, only people

I was a devout christian for 12 log and degrding years, and remained a nominal christian for 2 or 3 years after that. Your denial of my experiences is a denial of my life and self,, and is a hatefull and sadistic crime, for which YOU should be ashamed.

I have a great deal of faith , I have firm belief, enormous hope, and a long future. Please dont lie about me again,, Its imoral and unethical.

You make me angry with your lies, and you hurt me with your slanders, But you cannot make me empty, Sorry , you fail.

No, no jesus ever came to do anything, and I have never rejected any "free" gift (redendancy)

What right do you have to feel sorry for me? your arrogant condescention is neither wanted nor needed.
I am FULLY aware of all that I have done, Please do not deny my inteligence to me. It is insulting.

Christiand think they are "forgiven" its their excuse for evil, I know because I was one.

I escaped from fear, anger and "bondage" when I escaped the christian cult, I am no longer in any state of fear or "bondage".
Again please do not lie about me.

How am I "deceived" by any "devil"?

My only chance was to escape from the cult and take responsibility for my own life instead of waiting for an invisible sky daddy to fix everything for me.

I found jesus, and frodo baggins, and harry potter,
and luke skywalker,

Anonymous said...

Tonight we're having chicken. :o)

Ian said...

So typical that I don't feel the need to respond to it in depth. Yes, I was a christian for four years, but then I left. There is such a thing as an ex-christian, no matter what believers want to think.

My life, suprisingly, is now better since I left christianity. Yes, there are tough times that I go through, as do every human being on this planet, but that's life for you. Christians are not perfect, but they can be very offesnive, closed-minded and ignorant at times. Just like everyone else.

It is also interesting how simply because we do not believe what you believe, we are going to hell, or better yet, we are in bondage to Satan. I grew up. My mind wanted to learn more. I grew out of christianity, so to speak. Satan had nothing to do with it, unless it was working to make myself more open to new ideas and a better way of life.

We're your brothers and sisters Lonnie. If God created us all, then we're all his children. You aren't exactly setting the best example for your siblings.

Anonymous said...

I basically agree with everything this post says. Read romans 6:22-23 and prayerfully consider what it means fot you.

Hellbound Alleee said...

Yes, I agree. Read the bible, and study it hard. If it remains truthful and just for you, you have lost your morality. It's all fine and good to demand we read one little self-supporting verse, but how about reading the awful thing, the WHOLE thing.

I feel compassion for someone who lives in such a cruel, cartoon world. May you come to senses one day, and regain the morality that was taken from you by such a cruel belief system. I would never wish such an awful fate on even my worst of enemies. But your perfect loving God would. Sounds like bad taste in deities.

Anonymous said...

So, It's the devil that makes be believe that I don't believe in God? So, why not do more? Why stop there? He should be able to make me believe anything! That I can win in a shoot out with the cops, If I kill my ofspring I will live like a king in hell!

Maybe it's enought for him that he has my soul! In that case, Thats between me and God, who I don't believe, But its certainitly NOT between me and you! My beliefs have absultly no inpact what so ever on your life. SO STAY OUT OF MINE. So what if I don't believe in your god? So what if you think I'm going to hell. Does any of this have an impact on YOUR live? NO! So why don't you go chassing that good christian life instead of sticking your nose where it's not wanted.

Anonymous said...

Fuck God

Anonymous said...

Well if I was never a christian then I wish God had told me so instead of letting me go all that time thinking that I WAS saved! What a way to spend the first 20 years of your life...

Anonymous said...

Riiiight. We've NEVER heard this crap before. We've never REFUTED this crap before. What a fiiiiine witness for jebus this one is... *cough cough*

There's a god? Sure there is. Lots of them in fact. And their boss is named Odin.

Hey fundie brat - prove me wrong!

Anonymous said...

Hello Andrew! You visited this thread, too, huh? Well...
You still seem unable to grasp the fact that we do not consider the Bible true. So referring us to Bible texts is not the most effective way of swaying us to your point of view. Try something else. Like looking at our lives and comparing them to your own.

Anonymous coward: I have read Romans 6: 22-23 and it says that "Sin pays wages, namely death, but our Lord God gives a gift, eternal life."
But er... the problem here is that we do not believe that that is true. We think it is propaganda, created to influence people. And it works. On people with no defenses like scepticism.

Have you ever considered the possibility that the writer of Romans (Paul of Tarsus, who never even MET Jesus and had not read the Gospels at this point, and possibly never did) was not actually telling the truth?

And if not, why not?

yourmirrorsreflection said...

John 15:12-13 Matthew 18:12-13 you must die too this world, die for your freinds, "there is no greater love than this. If U do not believe this you your level of love is false and Missing In Action and you are a liar. Do U understand? any other philosophy is not worth living for, in my opinion. Even if U dont believe in Heaven and Hell, Jesus, God and his book, U can at least live your life as if there is still the possibility it may be true, it is better to be safe than sorry right? This life is just a test God wants to see who loves him and whatever someone sows they will reap, life revolves around a seed and a harvest everything on earth has a seed and a harvest, so when U die your seed and what U have sown in the world will have a harvest. I would chose to sow a good seed of good sweet fruit than a bad seed of thorns and thistles and poisonous friut (sort of speak). that's my suggestion for today. U dont have to accept it U have a free will that God intended for U to have if U choose to believe he gave that to U too. I don't want anyone to got to hell if they arent meant for it, but people have and will go there. The devil is a liar and deciever and thief, a murderer, and the accuser of the bretheren. its up to U if you want to believe that, and it's up to U if U want the Devil to decieve U into sowing a demon seed because it will raise up a flower of fire, lit from the fires of hell

Anonymous said...

well to be honest, I never really WAS a christian. Why is it so important anyway, i'm pretty sure that the babylonian preists thought that anyone who didn't follow their ways was a heretic who'd end up in some hell realm post mortem but now they're gone and you have to look them up in a history book to know they ever existed. The same will happen to christianity.
Kingdoms rise and fall, religions are forgotten, monuments crumble and yet the world keeps turning, always has, always will.

Well, for the next 6,000,000,000 years at least, by which time humanity with all its faiths and empires will be long gone anyway.

Anonymous said...

Here we go again!

Dear mirrorofdistortion,

Read the testimonials of the members here before spouting off another ignorant rant. Especially the "Pascal's wager" shit. I mean really, if I wanted to "play it safe" I would have to practice every religion simultaneously. Fear is no reason to believe something, and the exploitation of fear is good reason to believe something is false.

Anonymous said...

Hey, practicing all those religions worked for Benni(I think that was his name) in the remake of "The Mummy".

*considers how time consuming that'd get after a while*

Anonymous said...

Wow, yourmirrorsreflection. You sure come across as a completely hysterical fool. Who would want to follow a religion that messes up its believers as badly as it has you? Your statement not only lacks eloquence (or even proper spelling) but also content.

But hey, let´s for the moment assume a god created us. Looking at nature, I say that god does not give a flying fuck about individual suffering, ipso facto, does not give a hoot about morality. I could never be more than a deist. Sorry. If there is a god, he just does not care.

Anonymous said...

BrokenMirrorrefraction,

Stop reading Prince’s lyric sheets and learn to spell. You is Y-O-U, not “U”.

Your tripe can be summed up at the end of your third sentence. It’s your opinion.

IT’S YOUR OPINION.

That’s all it is…YOUR OPINION!

Your ignorant opinion doesn’t make it the truth no matter how hard you believe in it!

Good grief, how many of these fundamentalist toads are there out there?

Anonymous said...

You Christians come on here spouting "I love God or I love Jesus." You know nothing about a God except what you've heard other fundies repeat.

For some reason you think that by spouting such ridiculous nonsense that makes you somehow superior than us.

You've got your Gzus insurance and if it's all a lie, (which it is!) then you've waisted all your life spouting religious nonsense and looking like a total fool trying to mimick Gzus.

Why not grow up and get a real life and quit repeating something you've heard your mamma or a preacher repeat?

freeman said...

I am so glad that our country will no longer be holding hands with the religious right!

Anonymous said...

Wait until the religious left steps in... There will be the possibility for unreasonable and intolerant politicaians wanting unregulated and socialized welfare for everyone - to include illegal immigrants.

Religions "use" the gov't whether on the left and right to support their plan(s), typically the plan of "spreading" their religious dogma.

Anonymous said...

Leonard
I know you don't believe anymore, I was not quoting the bible to the ex-xtians if you noticed but it was addressed to Lonnie who started this thread.
Yes I disagree with the views of the Ex-Xchristians and yes I would like to see many return to the faith they once held dear.
But as someone who was at one time an Ex-Xtian myself I know that quoting the bible will not change people on this site.
Lonnie as a Christian appears to need to grow up in his faith.
Since I came across this site I have begun praying regularly for people whose site names I can remember, why?
Because most of what I have read speaks to me of the pain, desperation, disillusionment and suffering that I felt away from Jesus Christ.
Mock me - course you can, it ain't goin to stop me praying because Jesus was mocked, beaten, tortured and crucified.
Look forward to reading more from you and others.

Anonymous said...

Since most of us don't really believe Jesus existed ,I guess your right,Lonnie.
I thought I was a christian, but I now know that this was a fairy tale,...thanks for reminding me.
*(by the way I am an ordained minister envolved in church ministry for 20 years,..what have you done for Jebus??????????)

Anonymous said...

Andrew,

The "hurting" phase of leaving christianity is like any other result of a broken relationship. You experience it and move on. It resolves into peace of mind and a renewed idea of ourselves in this world.

Why can't christians believe that we ex-christians are happier now? Pardon me, but I am doing quite well without anyone's prayers, especially my own. Pray for yourself if you need to pray for someone--maybe you'll start questioning the flaws in your faith and find yourself on the opposite side someday.

And the martyr thing you have going on, it comes off a bit narcissistic--an immediate turn-off.

south2003 said...

Andrew said: Leonard
I know you don't believe anymore, I was not quoting the bible to the ex-xtians if you noticed but it was addressed to Lonnie who started this thread.
Lonnie is still fresh out of the cult. This why he’s not address you, LONNIE! You’ve already developed a hard shell – cult repellant.
---------
Andrew,
Why should we return? I for one did not hold dear to Christianity. If I did, I would have stayed put. I find the entire ideology repulsive and insulting. Plus it’s the outmost rubbish if you were to ask me.

Christians try to portray those who de-convert from the Christianity as to a Jedi Knight in the Star Wars movies converting to the Dark Side of the force! Like Yoda and Ben Kenobi, thy try to equate turning away from Christianity wit hthe path of the darkness and evil! The nerve of them!

Your feelings are subjective and it proves nothing. Furthermore, I can type the same shyte on this thread – see. Enough of your cult mind sentiments. Furthermore, I don’t feel any kind of desperation to try and seek comfort outside of myself. Of course you will be disenchanted when, no matter how much you call out to a god, it does not answer back.

Concerning your prayers, save them. Here we are, separated by this computer, by land and water. None of us are trying to persuade you, none of us are praying to the other 8,000+ gods (like Thor) to intervene on your behalf to see the light, but you have the audacity (assuming prayer is what you fundies think it is) to try and change the course of OUR LIFE…..as if we asked you to. Talking to yourself is not going to change anything Andrew, especially changing peoples’ individuality or as you would call it, FREE WILL.

As for that “mock me if you want because jesus was….,” what you are displaying is nothing more than the persecution complex. You were instilled with the felling of obligation. You are told that god loved you so much that he became flesh and died for you. This ultimate act of love, giving up one’s life so to speak, should be appreciated - GUILT- you owe me or I love you and you oath to love me back, because, see, see, what I did for you, you should reverence me or suffer the consequences. I don’t feel it’s necessary to give you any more credence or less ridicule because you think someone was tortured and killed to appease itself on your behalf. That is the sickest shit I have ever heard.

Anonymous said...

Hello, Andrew.

Pain and hurting...? Do you know what I actually felt on the day I shook the last remnants of my faith? A deep, deep feeling of relief and elation. The realization "It is really not true - I really do not have to believe it" was literally like a heavy weight lifted off my shoulders. I wonder if you experienced that when you left.

I also wonder what made you return. Could you not handle what you found? I assume being an atheist in the USA can´t be all that great, on account of the overwhelming majority of Christians everywhere. I assume it must be somewhat like being a Christian in Iran.

Or did you miss the warm feeling of being in the hands of God? You know, I do wonder how Christians work out the discrepancies between the notion that God is love and what is actually in the Bible. How do you do that, Andrew?
The God you purport to love, according to the Bible used to kill a lot of kids without looking back. Does not speak of love to me. The massacres in the Old Testament were the single strongest reason my faith initially started to wane.
How do you handle them?

And, well, prayer... I think it is painfully obvious that prayer is the most futile act in the world. Well, it shares that title with wishing. It is, after all, the same thing. About a hundred, if not more, fundamentalists have told me over the last couple of years that they would pray for me. I assume they were all telling the truth, yet lo and behold... I am still the same.

Andrew... when was the last time you seriously asked yourself whether your faith had true validity? When was the last time you held the notions you believe in to the light of cold examination? Have you, in fact, EVER done that?

Anonymous said...

Leonard
I have read a lot on this site and a recurring theme is how dare Christians think they know that I was not a true Christian.

You might just have convinced me to look again at what I believe but sadly, you turned to saying the very thing that many have critised Christians for. You have assumed and said things concerning me that you are not privy to.

South 2003
If Lonnie is an ex Christian newly out of the cult as you put it, why are so many of the ex Christians belittling him?
If I was a teacher teachers comment would be "must try harder" but as I'm not I'll leave it at I forgive you.

Michelle
You don't want me to pray for you well to stop me - you must try harder.

All its late where I am so goodnight God Bless to you all and I will be praying for you - not because I am pressured into doing so but because I want to and because I believe God loves you all.

Anonymous said...

Andrew - does that mean you won´t answer my question? Or WAS that the answer, perhaps?

You have to understand. Whether or not you remain a Christian cannot be a personal concern of mine. It is not my problem, it is yours. We can debate until the cows come home... when we leave, my problems are my problems and your problems are your problems.

So... once again: When was the last time you sincerely questioned your own beliefs?

Anonymous said...

Leonard
When was the last time?
Last night, I spent a lot of time going over the arguments put forward on Ex Christians.net. In the end those arguments actually strengthened my faith.

webmdave said...

I feel exactly the same way as Andrew. The arguments presented here on ExChristian.Net frequently make so much sense that I no longer have any lingering doubts about Christianity being absolute bunk.

Anonymous said...

Andrew, is your "faith" founded on the idea of the "supernatural"? How does the natural brain, create "supernatural" faith? Me thinks, your "faith", is a naturally processed idea, and the only thing you are strengthening is your natural resolve to believe in something that contradicts reality.

If you state the degree by which you hold your "faith", it is only a measure of the degree by which you reject reality. Why the need to rely on a survival mechanism, in order to find comfort/peace in your life? Can't find it anywhere else?

Steven Bently said...

Andrew

I wonder if any Christian or Muslim has ever wondered where they heard about the word G-o-d or A-l-l-a-h?

Has any Christian or Muslim ever wondered how words about a God or Allah were transported to their ears?

A God or Allah that conveniently lives in a book, written by different men, on man made paper and man made ink, assembled by men, and distibuted by men.

A God that according to it's own words, "No one hath seen God at any one time."

Yet people believe that a God talks to them and reveals passages and future events to them.

People believe that they pray to a God, yet has never one single prayer(s) can be proven to have been answered.

How long can people pretend to believe in invisible Gods and prayer?

How many times can a person reassure themselves that the fairytale that they are trying to believe in, is a hoax?

A person is born with zero knowledge, no knowledge of how to walk or use the bathroom, or speak their native language, no information of any God or Allah.

How does a person learn all these things?

Does a God mysteriously come down somehow show you how to walk or talk or use the bathroom or introduce to you the Bible or Koran?

Any idea? Anyone? Any guesses anyone???

All learning is through indoctination by other humans, through repetition and memorization.

This includes all schooling, all religions and beliefs and traditions, all facets of all information that anyone has allowed themselves to absorb in their brain and having weighed the information and analyzing this information and their brains decipher if the information is viable or believable.

If a majority of a group in society agrees with a set doctrines or beliefs then, it would be hard for the non-believer or nonconformist to stand up and openly denounce those handed down established beliefs without scorn or being seen a heretic.

Therefore it is the convention for most people to not rock the boat and go with the flow along with the handed-down established beliefs, even if your brain tells you the information being taught needs to be rejected and is unbelievable.

We are the nonbelievers, we are the heretics, we reject through present-day mental reasoning, the idea that ancient sheep herders knew more than we do today.

We reject through present-day mental reasoning, the idea that the Bible or Koran is the divine inspired word from a God.

Anonymous said...

Which God?

Greydon Square

Anonymous said...

Andrew: "Because most of what I have read speaks to me of the pain, desperation, disillusionment and suffering that I felt away from Jesus Christ.'

You went back because you are a human being that has been instructed to be obsessed with being chosen as privledged to have a membership to the sky club that is exclusive to only your kind.

You went back because you are fearful of the suffering that is promised to you in scriptures for straying away from your holy supremacy cult?

You went back because it is easier to get in line and march in obedience than to be deemed unacceptable to those around you.

You went back because you are promised a special reward in the highest form of supremacy known to mankind.

Andrew: "Mock me - course you can, it ain't goin to stop me praying because Jesus was mocked, beaten, tortured and crucified."

Oh mylanta!

Andrew is so much more special cause he thinks he's being crucified just like Jaysus was.

Andrew is the new age martyr for the Christian faith for being tortured and mocked in cyber space! (Hey, that rhymes)

Get over yourself already.

Andrew...you think are so supreme because you belong to a cult that claims it is superior to all others groups of human beings and you love that your supremacy group has exclusive access to a superior god and his special place for special people in his supreme heaven.

His chosen special people are way better than everyone else and you MUST love that your superior god calls for the eternal torture of anyone that fails to meet his supreme ways!

People like Andrew just can't understand why so many people do not want to belong to their supremacy group to hold hands and sing songs about how superior they are to all the inferior evil sinners they plan on torturing, forever and ever.

They are special and chosen because they read and fear special scriptures about their Supreme God's SUPERIOR TORTURE PLAN!

All they want is to reign in heaven with their supremacy group and watch over the evil dominion of HELL THAT THEIR SUPREME LEADER CREATED JUST TO SPECIALIZE IN SUPREME TORTURE!!!!

Yeah, superiority seems to be the agenda of all religious people.

God is superior to everyone, Jaysus is superior to Mohammad, Jews are superior to the Egyptians, White people are superior to everyone, and it is all a game WHO is more FUCKIN SPECIAL!

And anyone that feels no need to be superior to anyone else is shit out of luck and shall be condemned to fry forever in the blasting furnance that is specially built by their supreme Hitler type God who designed it to accomplish the maximum amount of torture and pain ever invented.

They are just so damn special.

Andrew, sorry you feel so superior and chosen for your faith in yet another supremacy hate cult.

I like equality better and hope the truth of reality will eventually drive all these extreme religious supremacy groups out of business before they destroy humanity.

BTW, You are not the only one praying for us. There must be thousands by now and it seems like everyone's special prayers are just not special enough for your superior leader.

OR maybe you all are not real TRUE Christians!

Godless for reason and peace,

Anonymous said...

Melissa
I don't normally like to be sarcastic

But which god are you attached to?
Which god is telling you all about me?
Or maybe you think you are god and that you think you know all about me?
Seems to me you would do very well on the god channel being able to know so much about others without even meeting them.
Seriously Melissa - It wasn't fear that took me back to Jesus Christ. It was the emptiness and futility of live without Him. What I found was that all that appeared to be on offer to me without Jesus Christ was unavailable, and that so called free-thinkers were only free-thinkers so long as you thought as they thought.
Good-night, GOD Bless you all, still praying for you all to return to Jesus who loves you and always will love you no matter how hard you deny it
P.S. Webmaster how do I insert a picture of myself?

webmdave said...

A picture?

Where would you want to insert it?

It wasn't fear that took me back to Jesus Christ. It was the emptiness and futility of live without Him.

I appreciate your need for an invisible friend. I enjoyed living in that fantasy myself.

However, reality is the only place for mature adults.

Anonymous said...

Webmaster
In this string I notice you have put a photo of yourself? and someon else has put a picture in the posting.
Thought instead of just typing anonymously I could add a photo of myself.

However, reality is the only place for mature adults. From an Ex Christian I can accept the comment,
I do not agree with the comment, but at least you have considered it from the point of having been there.

webmdave said...

I'm guessing your talking about the comment page, as opposed to the actual webpage, in reference to the picture. You'll need to set up a Blogger account and upload a picture to your profile to have your photo appear by your comments.

Anonymous said...

Andrew... you asserted that Jesus loves us and always will love us, "No matter how hard we deny it".

Care to support this outrageous statement with facts of any kind?

Also: Your testimony seems to say that you returned to Christianity because you did not like the world without the veneer of Christian beliefs. So... what does that mean... you can´t handle reality? The world is hard. Like Denis Leary said, get a (expletive deleted) helmet.

Our helmet exists in that we try to make the world as good as we can. Part of this effort is our opposition to religion. We´d rather you join us again. It´s okay if you don´t. You won´t burn in Hell.

Anonymous said...

Andrew,

No gods for me!

Uhm, last time I checked, I had a vagina. So, I guess that counts me out of being ruler of the universe, eh? Gods can only be men.

You can be sarcastic, it doesn’t bother me. Ya get what ya give.

You never answered my question:
Do you believe in Zeus? Again, please answer this question and explain why/why not.

Faith is not required to make an honest statement about my opinion of why people submit their life to oppressive religious faith.

You advocate and endorse a belief in what I now consider to be a false primitive concept that was origninally invented and continues to be used to have authority and power over humanity.

I am simply refuting what you are selling in here. (YOUR faith)

Now, Christians and Islamic people believe their eternal destination is a Texas sized "White Light" paradise designed exclusively for them to house their supremacy cult.

The highest form of supremacy known to the universe and mankind is their claim to fame and they believe the only purpose to this life is to appease an alleged cosmic bound leader whose actions resembles an elitist dictator with a hankering for murder, torture, and doom for those he hates.

This is purpose to you?

Read the ENTIRE bible Andrew, not just the rosy parts. It is a disturbing book that is seriously depressing for the most part.

In rejecting the ancient theistic ideology that accredits ALL power to some invisible superior alien dictator hiding behind the darkness of outer space, I removed the big ass pad lock that it placed on my mind and my life.

I opened myself up to see the broader picture of this world.
I wanted to follow MY inner voice that urged me to seek the truth of THIS WORLD and challenge the beliefs I was instructed to hold. I wanted to know where I was wrong.

I began to connect with the history of the human race and the troubles it has caused humanity.

I wanted to take charge of my time and carefully choose my actions. In the vastness of space and time, we hang in the balance of change and chance.

It was then, I realized that I was not rare or special at all. I was just another form of life. That is okay with me. It makes being alive that much more precious and limited, but oh so wonderous.

I was once like you and I was just as convinced as you are that serving god was my entire life's purpose. We both filled in those big blanks with assumptions and faith, but that was not enough for me.

Now, I think the pursuit of religious faith was not only useless but very harmful. I was deluding myself in trying to have a personal relationship with the air while begging forgiveness from the rocks and trees, for what it was worth.

Talk about futility!

I prayed daily from a very young age and only received silence. I practiced grace, humility, forgiveness, compassion, acceptance, and faith everyday, but god and Jesus always eluded me, to no fault of my own.

I begged and I pleaded and did everything that was asked of me.
I kept my faith as a tiny mustard seed (because the bible said that is all that is required)...until reality hit me square in the head.

I was mindlessly trying to have a personal relationship with an invisible unknown myth that required obedience and fear on order to believe in him.

Ponder this:
I remember having an imaginary friend when I was a kid and my parents thought it was just so cute but silly. I had tea with her and pulled a chair out for her when I sat down at the table. Somehow, she was deemed unreal as a creative part of my imagination, but god remained outside of that measure.

Well, I grew up, became an individual and finally sat down one day with the honest intention to open mind to find the truth. It was a heart felt desire to try to understand all religious faith and where I fit in to that picture.

When I researched the history behind the Christian faith and realized how similar the whole story of God and Jesus is to Ahura Mazda and Mithra. There are many other examples, but too long to go into here. Read these for references to above:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahura_Mazda
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithra

The bible borrowed, copied, and forged many mythological stories from ancient Babylonian, Egyptian, Persian, Assyrian, and Greek teachings that were formed prior to Judaism and Christianity. All of them seeking to be rulers of the world by claiming to be BE the creator of our world.

It was a major AH-HA! moment.
A life changing epiphany.

Finally, I had identified what I felt conflicted about internally from my early adulthood. Something about Christianity's teachings really bothered me at my core. I never knew what that was until I was able to question it.

It was ALL fictional mythology.

I had clarity about this life for the first time ever. That feeling of doubt and helplessness vanished almost instantly.

It took time to deprogram my mind from fearing the unknown and the threats of eternal damnation, but for the first time in my life I did not feel lost in endless faith or as a failure for not having received some divine validation from the supreme invisi-leader hiding beyond the great void.

What I do know:
I don't know everything. No one does. But, mankind has invented millions of gods over the course of human history and I have no personal desire to serve these ancient myths.

Also, it is the teachings of the bible that claims the entire cosmic scheme was set into motion by a SELF SERVING god living all alone in the void. This would imply the universe was created FOR HIS SUPREMACY NEEDS ALONE. That just sounds so man made and way too greedy to be Universal Truth.

Even though the bible God is the creator of evil, we get blamed for the major problems he knew it would make. If god was a SHE, it would be the other way around.

Andrew, answer me this; A LOVING god would have created everything perfect right from the start and provide no “free will” for his enslaved supreme race.

No choice means ALL IS GREAT FOREVER. BUT, because he KNEW we would fall from grace and go the wrong way, he deliberately gave us a mind to think away our faith and fail him to fill up HIS HELL.

No, the bible god actually planned for our fall to happen. If he had this insight to all knowledge past, present and future, why create something just to see it throught its eventual failure and doom.

Death, wars, disease, poverty, and murder are all attributed to the god of the bible to fulfill his grand supremacy plan so he can chose only the best of the best.

THAT is supremacy and THAT is not my calling in life.

YOUR ALLEGED GOD CLAIMS HE MADE EVIL FOR HIS OWN PURPOSE AND HAS PLANS TO TORTURE PEOPLE FOR FAILING HIM ANDREW...THAT DOESN'T BOTHER YOU AT ALL?

Sorry, but it turns my stomach that religious people actually believe this and advocate it.

You are an atheist too, Andrew.
You just won't admit it because you only ACKNOWLEDGE the one god that you have been instructed to.

Now, please answer my questions.

And remember, Zeus loves you and I will pray that he comes deep into your beating heart so that you may be magically healed by his Titan powers and submit to his super duper supreme cosmic rule.
OR ELSE...

Godless in peace,

Anonymous said...

Melissa

First off I apologise for being sarcastic earlier - it does get up my nose when people try and tell me what I think.

Anyway
Not sure on your 1st question. As it appears you believe in Zeus "Zeus loves you and I will pray that he comes deep into your beating heart" is a god Why stop there , greek mythology has many godesses. I'm not convinced God is Male or Female - He is referred to by Jesus as Father.
You ask about Zeus - sounds as though you are a bit like my wife. Thinking I have not answered a question when the truth is no such question was asked, check back you never asked a question about Zeus.
Zeus was the mythological Greek god of the weather. Do I believe in him? No. Why, because of the first commandment given to Moses in Exodus
"This is purpose to you?"
"Appease an alleged cosmic bound leader etc. etc.?"
I never could appease Him, too much dirty water under the bridge. That is why I thank God for sending His Son Jesus into this world.
Melissa - Was Jesus murdered? If so who by? If not why not?
If He wanted to see us tortured etc. Why would He bother to send His Son to this world?

YOUR ALLEGED GOD CLAIMS HE MADE EVIL FOR HIS OWN PURPOSE AND HAS PLANS TO TORTURE PEOPLE FOR FAILING HIM ANDREW...THAT DOESN'T BOTHER YOU AT ALL?
Point me to where "my" GOD claims this and I will have another re-think.

Anonymous said...

It's really discouraging to read a comment addressed to a fundy by someone as brilliant as Melissa, when the fundy cannot remove himself from his own self-righteous religious box and relate to Melissa's comments, just when she thinks she has his undivided attention, she makes an overly sarcastic comment and the fundy cannot remove himself from his self-righteous religious box and form an intelligent responce.

Andrew you're a typical pathetic little snot head fundy Troll!!!

Please just go away!!! Cretin!!!

J. C. Samuelson said...

Andrew,

"Zeus was the mythological Greek god of the weather. Do I believe in him? No. Why, because of the first commandment given to Moses in Exodus..."

You must be referring to Ex. 20:3. Why would that prevent you from believing that Zeus exists? To follow this commandment you'd simply have to refrain from worshipping other gods (including Zeus). Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the other gods named in its pages are mythical or imaginary. Indeed, Christians throughout history have even referred to these 'other gods' as metaphors for things like money, material goods, lust, people in power - all of which are very real.

To be a bit more explicit, the question Melissa asked was rhetorical. Of course you don't believe Zeus exists, and you have good reasons to lack belief in Zeus apart from your god's commandment. Would you agree with that? If so, why do you not believe in Zeus?

"I never could appease Him..."

Every time you pray for God's forgiveness in Jesus' name, it is an attempt to appease Him; to keep Him from consigning you to hellfire at judgment day. Every penny you put on the offering plate, every time you put on your "Sunday best" to attend worship, it is an attempt to placate Him in the face of your sinful nature - for Jesus' sake.

"Was Jesus murdered? If so who by? If not why not?"

Wrong question. After all, if Jesus existed and the Bible account of his death is accurate, it would be easy to agree that he was murdered. As for your allusion to who did it, I have to wonder about your feelings toward the Jewish people. Are you an anti-semite?

Don't worry. I don't actually expect an answer. I ask because you might want to take a closer look at how this religion has made you feel with regard to your fellow human beings.

"If He wanted to see us tortured etc. Why would He bother to send His Son to this world?"

So God sacrifices Himself to appease Himself to prevent Himself from sending us all to hell. But then, he really didn't 'sacrifice' anything, did he? After all, Jesus now sits at the right hand of God (Mk. 16:19 and Heb. 10:12), doesn't he? In other words, God never gave up anything. Seems a somewhat empty (and nonsensical) 'sacrifice' to me.

As for what God wants, it's pretty obvious; He wants you to accept Jesus as your savior - or he'll toss you in hell to suffer forever. Salvation at the proverbial point of a gun, wouldn't you say?

"Point me to where "my" GOD claims this and I will have another re-think."

See Is. 45:7, Am. 3:6, and Lam. 3:38. Then there are all the verses that implies God's use and manipulation of evil to see his plans fulfilled. God kills babies, animals, and so forth (or commands these things) after ensuring that events unfold in a way that gave him good reason to do so (in his twisted mind). See Ex. 7-14 for a well-known example of God doing this.

You might respond by saying that God uses evil for good. It's clear, however, that this 'good' is intended only for those he approves of. According to Christians, the one's he approves of are part of the exclusive "Jesus Club."

Anonymous said...

Another stunning example of Christian arrogance and intolerance. How nice of you to stand upon your soapbox and look down to pity the poor infidels. I am sure Jesus would be very proud of your condescending rhetoric. Ha.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous
I realise that some Christians on this site look down on people who do not believe as they do. But the vast majority who look down on others from their soap boxes with the sort of pity you refer to, are those preaching Ex Christian fundamentalism:
FUNDAMENTALISM
strict adherence to any set of basic ideas or principles

Justin
It's really discouraging to read a comment addressed to a fundy by someone as brilliant as Melissa, when the fundy cannot remove himself from his own self-righteous religious box and relate to Melissa's comments

As my answers and comments were addressed to Melissa, I take it she has asked you to reply on her behalf.
If she has then consider what a fundy/fundamentalist is and pass the definition and my comments onto her
Fundamentalisn:
1. a movement in American Protestantism that arose in the early part of the 20th century in reaction to modernism and that stresses the infallibility of the Bible not only in matters of faith and morals but also as a literal historical record, holding as essential to Christian faith belief in such doctrines as the creation of the world, the virgin birth, physical resurrection, atonement by the sacrificial death of Christ, and the Second Coming.
2. the beliefs held by those in this movement.
3. strict adherence to any set of basic ideas or principles: the fundamentalism of the extreme conservatives.

1. For a start off I am not an American so that disqualifies me from being a fundy
2. I do not consider the Bible to be infallible, inspired by God - yes, infallible - no

If you are talking on Melissa's behalf WHY?
If you are not talking on Melissa's behalf God bless you and thanks for the sanctimonious comments.

JCS

Some nice quotes, nothing about abuse murder etc. that Melissa spoke about.

Every time you pray for God's forgiveness in Jesus' name, it is an attempt to appease Him.
That maybe what you were taught in the denomination you went to, I have heard this is the case in some denominations. That is saying Christ's sacrifice was insuffient to God for those who put their faith in Jesus. Either Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient or it was not, I believe it was and that all who repent and have faith in Jesus are forgiven.
Am I an anti semite? No I am not if I was then I would be anti - Jesus.
The question was - Was Jesus murdered? I have heard too many people (Christians and non Christians alike) say Jesus was murdered. Jesus Himself said no one takes my life, I lay it down ergo a sacrifice to settle our debt.

According to Christians, the one's he approves of are part of the exclusive "Jesus Club."

Correct.

Melissa

Justin says "It's really discouraging to read a comment addressed to a fundy by someone as brilliant as Melissa"

Out of interest are you a college/university professor? Someone high up in politics? These questions are just out of curiosity.

webmdave said...

"Out of interest are you a college/university professor? Someone high up in politics? These questions are just out of curiosity."

Only college/university professors and/or someone high up in politics is brilliant?

That can't be what you meant, can it?

Just out of curiosity, are you from one of these illustrious career fields?

Anonymous said...

"Out of interest are you a college/university professor? Someone high up in politics? These questions are just out of curiosity."

Andrew, was Jesus a college/university professor, or someone high up in the political arena? Just curious.

Anonymous said...

To the brainwashed fundy Andrew,

And yes I am answering for Melissa until she comes back, because we are both bro.& sis in truth!

Now I'm going out on a limb and guessing from the content of your responces that you must be at the ripe old age of at least 10 1/2 to 11 years old and that is being overly generous.

You wrote, " 1. For a start off I am not an American so that disqualifies me from being a fundy
2. I do not consider the Bible to be infallible, inspired by God - yes, infallible - no"

Then you have the audacity to ask what institional degrees Melissa has, but yet you are willing to believe the Bible is inspired, how foolish?

By what standard degrees did any of the Bible writers have???? ans. NONE, ZERO, ZILCH, NADA, yet you question someone whom is living now, in this time today, and knows that the world is not flat and that the Earth is not the center of the universe, and knows that diseases are not caused by demons and a god's judgment and that god and jesus do not live in the clouds above.

I'm beginning to think you're less than 10 years old now.

Then you say that you are not a fundy because you do not live in America, so ignorant, fundamentalism started long before it was brought to America, responce s like that just shows how perplexing ignorant that you are.

Andrew you are the prime example of when you mix someone that believes the Bible is the truth and give them a keyboard the results are a IDIOT!!!

So Andrew my advice to you is;

It is better to keep one's mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt!

Anonymous said...

Justin
Thanks for the laugh. Now let the adults speak - such as Melissa.

Anonymous said...

Justin
The definition of Fundamentalist was taken from an American web site's online dictionary. As you consider it has a long history heres a quote from Wikipedia.

Fundamentalism, as the term is used today, is a fairly recent creation closely linked with the historical and cultural contexts of 1920s U.S. Protestantism (e.g. the Fundamentalist-Modernist Controversy in the Presbyterian Church). Since then the term has been 'exported' abroad and applied to a wide variety of religions including Buddhism, Judaism and Islam. Fundamentalism should not be confused with Revivalist movements which can be traced back much further in time and are not specific to 20th Century America.

Now be a good boy and go do your homework

Anonymous said...

To scared anonymous or the fundy Andrew:

I do not know why I would waste my time responding to someone whom does not even have the mental capacity to press the (other button) and leave even a fake name, apparently Andrew ran into the other room and got his Big Brother or Big Sister to cut and paste a Big responce back to me.

You wrote; "Since then the term (fundamentalism) has been 'exported' abroad and applied to a wide variety of religions including Buddhism, Judaism and Islam. Fundamentalism should not be confused with Revivalist movements which can be traced back much further in time and are not specific to 20th Century America."

Now by your own omission that the term (Fundamentalism has been exported and can be traced back much further in time not specific to 20th Century America.)

How this would exclude Andrew and any other fundy making a comment on this website, a fundy! I do not know.

If someone plays a musical instrument, then that someone could be called an intrumentalist, since Andrew blows Jesus, then he could be called a fundamentalist!

Again,

It is better to keep one's mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and relieve all doubt!

J. C. Samuelson said...

"As my answers and comments were addressed to Melissa, I take it she has asked you to reply on her behalf."

You may have noticed that this is more or less a public forum. As such, anyone is free to address any points they wish, whether they were originally directed at another person or to the group.

"...I am not an American so that disqualifies me from being a fundy."

I hate to nit-pick, but this is not a valid objection. Fundamentalism is not restricted to American Protestants, though with regard to Christianity the phenomenon can be observed most frequently among American Christians. Since the late 20th century the term has been applied more broadly to encompass all those who advocate a literal, inerrant interpretation of scripture (including Muslims, Mormons, Jews, etc. who do the same).

"I do not consider the Bible to be infallible, inspired by God - yes, infallible - no."

Better objection than the last one, I'll give you that.

In what sense do you mean 'inspired?' Do you mean that the authors felt creative inspiration based on their notion of God, or that God literally moved them to write what they did? I could accept the former, but the latter poses problems.

"Some nice quotes, nothing about abuse murder etc. that Melissa spoke about."

You can shift the goal posts all you like, but the Bible speaks for itself. The God characterized within its pages does seem to have a predilection for violence in order to demonstrate His superiority, and in the quoted passages admits as much.

From your God's perspective, He does not commit atrocities. Yet, from our perspective, if the Bible is to be believed He most assuredly has and commanded His subjects to do the same many times. The Bible is full of these stories.

For one small example of the different perspectives, take the sixth commandment, "thou shalt not kill." Usually, Christians interpret this to be a commandment not to commit murder. Yet in Leviticus, believers are commanded by God to stone disobedient children, adulterers, and homosexuals. In Deuteronomy, believers are commanded to kill those who worship other gods and destroy their cities. There's more examples if you want to look. Obviously, from God's perspective killing these people is not to be considered murder. From our modern perspective it definitely is.

As for eternal torture for unrepentant sinners and non-believers, it is quite well attested to in the NT. You may prefer a kinder, gentler description of God's punishment (such as simple separation from God), but there is little scriptural support for that position. Regardless, eternal punishment of any kind is a bit excessive for any crime, particularly non-belief, wouldn't you say?

"Jesus Himself said no one takes my life, I lay it down ergo a sacrifice to settle our debt."

Once again, if you believe the Bible when it describes Jesus as "sitting at the right hand of God" then there was no sacrifice on God's part at all. If Jesus was merely a man who believed he was sacrificing himself for the sake of humanity, then he is simply one more failed martyr.

I'm still curious about your reasons for not believing in the existence of Zeus (or indeed any deity other than your own) that are based on your own judgment, rather than on your god's command. Care to answer?

Anonymous said...

Why do I not believe /follow Zeus? Principally because he has always been portrayed as a mythical being, both in the non religious press as well as in religious writings.
Also Zeus is said to be the son of Cronus who was said to be the son of Uranus. Cronus is said to have emasculated his own father and when his genitals were thrown in to the sea Aphrodite is said to have been born as a result of the foam created by his genitals. This does not speak to me of
a. a loving God
b. a united Godhead
c. one God.
d. a Holy God
e. a God who knows men.
The so called Titans are depicted from history as being caught up in themselves and in no way interested in the affairs of men.
The God I believe in was involved with His creation, even to the point of sending Jesus into the world that He may die and be raised again that the sins of men might be forgiven.

steamboat_willey said...

Andrew:

Have you read Homer's Oddessy? It's such a beautiful story that it makes me want to believe in the Goddess of Dawn, The Rosy Fingered. The story speaks to me of

a. a loving God
d. a Holy God (one who furthers justice)
e. a God who knows men

I know Oddessy is just a story though.

I'm curious. Can you please tell me why b and c in your original list are so important? What is inherently wrong with having a bunch of gods, each having supernatural power, getting along sometimes, but other times being in conflict or doing battle with each other?

J. C. Samuelson said...

Andrew,

Thanks for answering the question about Zeus.

"Principally because he has always been portrayed as a mythical being, both in the non religious press as well as in religious writings."

In other words, there is no evidence for Zeus being anything other than a myth, so you lack a belief in Zeus' existence. Sounds reasonable. In fact, that's precisely my thinking. Then again, in my estimation the same standard applies to allgods, whereas you believe this standard applies to all gods except one - your favorite.

You see? We have something in common; we are both atheists. I simply apply the above standard to one more god than you do.

As for the characteristics you mention, they certainly sound appealing, but is that really a sound basis for believing God exists? After all, Muslims believe Allah has all those characteristics (except for a united godhead - there is no trinity in Islam), yet you would presumably argue Allah doesn't exist. What is so different about Allah as compared to your God, really?

Anonymous said...

JCS even as an Ex Christian I am surprised you ask that question. The difference is in what Jesus said and did. In particular His death and resurrection. I believe Jesus was and is the expected Messiah. Although many Christians (including George W. and Tony B.) have sanctioned atrocities that are in direct opposition to the words of Jesus to love your neighbour as yourself.
Mohammed in his writings makes no such statements (as far as I am aware), in fact Mohammed as I understand it sanctions the brutal treatment of infidels.

Anonymous said...

Andrew: "Mohammed in his writings makes no such statements (as far as I am aware), in fact Mohammed as I understand it sanctions the brutal treatment of infidels."

2 Peter 3:7 - "But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

God will set the entire earth on fire so that he can burn non-believers to death.

In fact the Christian god as I understand it sanctions the brutal treatment of infidels.

J. C. Samuelson said...

Andrew,

To begin with I wasn't talking about Jesus or Mohammed as gods, particularly since Muslims don't consider Mohammed to be god (or even part of god). Yes, I do realize that you consider Jesus to be part of the godhead. But even taking this into account he ain't the whole show, right? As a monotheistic god construct, your God (Jehovah) is on par with the monotheistic god construct, Allah.

So to put it simply, Christians and Muslims each consider their chosen deity to have the following personality profile:

1. He is loving.
2. He is One.
3. He is Holy.
4. He knows men.

So again, what really is the difference that makes Jehovah more 'real' than Allah? That is, since you seem to consider personality profile to be proof of existence (existence is what we're arguing here), and both Jehovah and Allah have the same personality profile, what makes you think Jehovah exists and Allah doesn't?

Sidebar: If you have any Internet savvy at all (I believe you do), you should already know that a personality profile is not proof that a person is who they say they are - or who someone else says they are.

Returning to the original question and tie this all together, my intention has been to demonstrate that your skepticism of Zeus, Allah, Apollo, Shiva, Vishnu, Athena, Mars, Thor, Janus, Juno, Odin, Cernunnos, Brigid, and many, many others is appropriate - but not just for them. It is also appropriate to apply the same standard to Jehovah.

Regarding what Jesus or Mohammed said about how to treat infidels, neither was what I would describe as charitable. Love your neighbor...as long as he/she worships the right god, that is.

steamboat_willey said...

JC:

You forgot to metion Quetzalcoatyl, the feathered serpent god of true knowledge worshipped by the Aztecs in this rough neighborhood thousands of years before the white man showed up with his Jesus.

Anonymous said...

"You are a bunch of angry, hurting, empty people."

Ah...nothing quite like a hypocrite...

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