Hell is very hot!

A letter from Andrew F

Heres what i think,

once youre a saved born again christian, if its real, you cant just give it up. you cant go back on it or deny it because God will make sure he gets you back no matter what that takes.

This world is comin to an end fast, getting God out of schools, and everywhere else, teaching kids that being gay is just an alternative lifestyle, and that people werent created by God but that we came from monkeys...

Christians rights are being revoked. People are being told they are all god inside and strange religieons are beng made "popular" by the scummy, sorry, pathetic people in hollywood. Eveil and sin is being glorified by the world just like the bible predicted and the nation is being sucked into it.

Every nation that turned its back on God through time has fallen. Its sad to sit back and watch all the sin of the world be glorified. Real true born again children of God need to stick together and speak up- against the wicked sins of this world. WE need to take up our bibles and crosses and show the world that if they do not accept Jesus Christ then they will burn in hell for all of eternity.

I think any site that tries to ban God is just a sign of the times, but one day the people who dont believe will also stand before the one true living God, and as the bible says they will bow there knee and confess that he is Lord, then God will look down on non believers and say "depart from me, i know you not" and there begins the eternal seperation. I think that is sad but it will happen.

The only good part in all that is that those people in that one final moment before they are condemned to an eternity in hell will see that there was really a God and that they have spent there whole lives fighting against their creator. One day, when the trumpets blow, everyone will see that God is very real, heaven is real, and that hell is not only real but very hot.

115 comments:

Anonymous said...

This is just a fundie drive-bye. Why I am even responding is beyond me. Maybe I just enjoy talking to myself...sorta like the years I spent praying to a non-existent diety.

Anyway, I would like to know how in the hell do you know that hell is hot? Have you ever been there before? Or are you simply regurgitating what your dumbass pastor and the BuyBull have to say?

You fundies are nothing but drones; and if I had the choice of hell and an eternity in heaven with someone like you I'd choose hell.

So let me go and buy some two million sunblock and a glass of ice tea.

Anonymous said...

"once youre a saved born again christian, if its real, you cant just give it up."
Then I guess its not real because I was a
"saved" "born again" christian sheep. And I not only gave it up, I ran as far away from it as possible


"you cant go back on it or deny it because God will make sure he gets you back no matter what that takes."
No, but I can and did escape from it,

The rest of your post is just more jibberish. Just like the crap I used to spew for jesus when my pastor told me to,

Anonymous said...

Here is some of what Andrew F "thinks":

Andrew: "This world is comin to an end fast, getting God out of schools, and everywhere else, teaching kids that being gay is just an alternative lifestyle, and that people werent created by God but that we came from monkeys... Christians rights are being revoked..."

Do you no longer have the right to attend the church of your choice, Andrew? Can you not openly express your opinions, even on forums such as this? I think you are confusing resistance to the intrusion of religion into government with curtailment of your fundamental religious liberties. I happen to think that keeping government and religion totally separate was a splendid idea. Do you not think so?

By the way, can you point me to one scientific source that claims we "came from monkeys"? I strongly suspect that you are merely echoing creationist distortions and have not made any attempt to study the theory of evolution for yourself. Is that accurate?

Andrew: "WE need to take up our bibles and crosses and show the world that if they do not accept Jesus Christ then they will burn in hell for all of eternity."

If you wish to convince anybody to adopt your beliefs, a very good place to start would be to produce some evidence supporting them. Without it, you have no more credibility than an Islamic fundamentalist, for example--you're simply brandishing a slightly different dogma. I just wrote a reply to Christina in this thread that I think applies equally to you. Have you any comment?

Andrew: "I think any site that tries to ban God is just a sign of the times,..."

Which sites are trying to "ban" god, Andrew? Are you expressing your displeasure that some of us hold opinions different from your own? If you had your way, would you silence us by force rather than by persuasion? If not, then I look forward to hearing some cogent reasoning from you rather than threats.

Andrew: "One day, when the trumpets blow, everyone will see that God is very real..."

That is nothing more than wishful thinking (followed by some rather ugly threats). Have you anything to back it up? If not, we will simply dismiss it as yet another unfounded religious claim. Okay?

Anonymous said...

This world is comin to an end fast

You know the world is coming to an end when god is coming to an end! They're getting nervous! If god does show up, he's getting a big wet luger in the face from yours truely.

Anonymous said...

This world is comin to an end fast

You know the world is coming to an end when god is coming to an end! They're getting nervous! If god does show up, he's getting a big wet luger in the face from yours truely.

Piprus said...

I don't expect to see an answer from Andrew, but if he should be lurking to see what kinds of responses he got...

This is such a crock of drivel that it's hardly worth a look. The world is not coming to an end, at least in the biblical sense, and it will not any time soon. You obviously are very ill-informed as to your biology too...evolution does not say, and never has, that man evolved from monkeys.

Just where are christians' rights being revoked? If you think that the principle of separation of church and state is revoking your rights, you should think again. You never had a right to impose christian dogma on secular American life to start with.

Every nation eventually falls anyway, regardless of its gods. Nations have life spans, just as people do. They don't really "fall", they reorganize.

Oh, nuts...I could go on, but it's a waste of time.

Anonymous said...

This world is comin to an end fast

You know the world is coming to an end when god is coming to an end! They're getting nervous! If god does show up, he's getting a big wet luger in the face from yours truely.

Anonymous said...

Why is it the more fervent and blind the belief, the less these people seem to value spelling, grammer, and clarity in written communication?

How am I supposed to respect an idea, even one I disagree with, if the person presenting the idea doesn't care about their own words enough to present them clearly?

Farris said...

Andrew,
When the world comes to an end can I have your possessions? Like the Christian spell check program on your computer or your Kent Hovind biology books. I am starting to think we came from monkeys the more I see Christian responses. Remember you have to open your hand to get it out of the jar!
I'm waiting,
Farris

Anonymous said...

A play-by-play breakdown of Andrew F:

"Heres what i think,

once youre a saved born again christian, if its real, you cant just give it up"

If it's real, Andrew? Didn't you just deny the holy spirit by inserting an "if?" What exactly do you mean by "if its real"

And we certainly can just "give it up," if indeed "its real." Try reading your bible instead of listening to a poorly educated preacher. Paul clearly laid out how an "ex christian" is indeed possible.

"you cant go back on it or deny it because God will make sure he gets you back no matter what that takes."

Kinda like a bully playing dice, huh? When he loses he just beats the tar outta the other guy and takes back his winnings?

"This world is comin to an end fast, getting God out of schools, and everywhere else, teaching kids that being gay is just an alternative lifestyle, and that people werent created by God but that we came from monkeys..."

Are you gay, Andrew F? You kinda sound like Ted Haggard a little bit.

Learn some biology. Humans did not evolve from monkeys, so we did not come from monkeys, only ill informed people like you say such things, but rather apes and humans evolved from a common ancestor. Kinda like breeds of dogs, which humankind has see evolution working in full with our selective breeding practices.

"Christians rights are being revoked. People are being told they are all god inside and strange religieons are beng made "popular" by the scummy, sorry, pathetic people in hollywood. Eveil and sin is being glorified by the world just like the bible predicted and the nation is being sucked into it."

Kinda like christianity, huh, bub? It too was once a "strange religieon made 'popular' by the scummy, sorry, pathetic people in hollywood" except "people in hollywood" would be the persecuted middle easterners from which the christian cult evolved.

Evil, or eveil, as you call it, as well as sin, has been going on since the dawn of what we call mankind. This time is no different. You think there weren't Ted Haggards a hundred years ago? Think again.

"Every nation that turned its back on God through time has fallen. Its sad to sit back and watch all the sin of the world be glorified. Real true born again children of God need to stick together and speak up- against the wicked sins of this world. WE need to take up our bibles and crosses and show the world that if they do not accept Jesus Christ then they will burn in hell for all of eternity."

Spoken like a true reader of Tim Lahaye. I'll tell you, Andrew, you take up your bible and cross to me, I'll fight back. And I'll fight back hard. Have you yourself never wondered why you're worshiping a middle eastern tribal god like the Allah you probably make fun of pretty regularly?

"I think any site that tries to ban God is just a sign of the times, but one day the people who dont believe will also stand before the one true living God, and as the bible says they will bow there knee and confess that he is Lord, then God will look down on non believers and say "depart from me, i know you not" and there begins the eternal seperation. I think that is sad but it will happen."

You're also a sign of the times, Andrew. Cept you're nothing special... nothing unique or new. Just another fundamentalist parrot who can't spell, string sentences together properly, or use reason or logic. Idiots like you have laid their claims much more persuasively than you did, and even some of them managed to not look the fool. And who is banning "god" on this site? This "god" you speak of is mentioned a great deal here. This is an ex-christian site after all.

"The only good part in all that is that those people in that one final moment before they are condemned to an eternity in hell will see that there was really a God and that they have spent there whole lives fighting against their creator. One day, when the trumpets blow, everyone will see that God is very real, heaven is real, and that hell is not only real but very hot."

Good. Then you'll get your reward, right? Just as those tenth century trumpets blow... why not speakers or MP3 players? And you too will no doubt see people you cared about cast into hell, cause sorry kid, the world just ain't black and white.

And you say this is the good part?

I can't say if you're a brainwashed kid or some 40 year old moron, but if you're the latter, you're a sociopath. And fuck you. I use your goddamn bible as a target for my .25 and I roll tobacco cigarettes in its onionskin paper.

Anonymous said...

"Heres (sic) what i think,

And then you proceed to show us you dont and, apparently, never have. It's also known as "blind faith" and "willful ignorance".

Anonymous said...

Well, here's what I think -

Having been “blessed” with a rational mind, I am glad to say I was never a fundy. But, I did try to make myself believe what the christians say they do. (Because, let’s face it, for all their blathering on and on about being persecuted, the christians actually get undue respect and perks here in good old GodSaveAmerica.)

I'm embarrassed to admit it, but I even prayed for the “gift” of “faith.” Of course, no matter how much time I spent talking to myself or obsessing over the bible in my own mind, I could not force myself to believe in it entirely (or even very much at all). Belief is NOT a choice.

That’s when I decided to investigate religious matters more deeply – and -- unlike the fundies who go through life wearing blinders -- from a variety of viewpoints. Through college courses and intensive reading, I learned about the history of the bible, including the geopolitical situations that influenced its creation over hundreds of years, and, of course, about the inconsistencies and errors of which the bible is full.

Now, I’m not saying I’m a scholar. Rather, it was the work of real scholars that convinced me once and for all that the odious biblegod is imaginary (damn good thing!) and that christianity is bunk.

Yet, here comes another barely literate fundy spouting the same tired phrases that we’ve all heard countless times, without any evidence of anything he proclaims, expecting us to believe him just because he and his bible say so. If the scholars convinced me that giving up any pretense of christianity was the most logical thing to do, it’s not bloody likely that a poorly written screed will change my mind. And, if Andrew thinks so, I can guess what the “F” in his name stands for.

Anonymous said...

lol, love it when they say the world is comin' to an end when in reality thngs have never been so good for the human race. Y'wana see just how fucked up we can get? Pick up a history book and turn to the 800 years when christianity ruled europe, enforcine their bullshit beliefs on all and sundry, it was called the "dark ages" for a reason, asshat.

and as for the "came from monkeys" crap...apes, actually, and how is that more far fetched than us all evolving from dust and magic like this fucktard apparently belives?

Anonymous said...

Well, folks, take heart, because nothing of the sort of thing Andrew fantasizes about will happen, of course.

He is going to die old and stupid (just as he is young and stupid now) and then he will be consigned to oblivion (where his brain has preceded him years ago).

If only his kind had the decency to leave us, the people whose brains ARE working, alone.

I so hope that he is right about Christianity declining, though.

"The Good News: The world is coming to an end.
The Bad News: That´s it. No God, no judgment day and no Heaven. Just the end of the world."
"Well, fuck."

Anonymous said...

What's the "F" stand for Andrew F? Fucktard?

Anonymous said...

"[i]once youre a saved born again christian, if its real, you cant just give it up.[/i]"
So what are you saying, God takes away your free will??? I mean that’s the only way one can be saved without ever going astray. I mean sure all the passages that describe once saved always save describes God's promise on his part but it says nothing of our part. Can we not leave if we truly have freewill??? If we can't then God is a liar for claiming to admonish anti-freewill puppetry...

"[i]you cant go back on it or deny it because God will make sure he gets you back no matter what that takes.[/i]"
Impossible to refuse, hence no freewill, ergo God lies...



"[i]This world is comin to an end fast,[/i]"
The world isn't anywhere near ending yet, humanity isn't assured that, but the world is...


"[i]getting God out of schools[/i]"
Oh yes the special rights for christians, "My God needs to be adored everywhere and fed to everyone"...



"[i]and everywhere else,[/i]"
It's called restoring balance, yeah sorry chritians can no longer claim the dominionism they once had but hey everyone else deserves equal play...

"[i]teaching kids that being gay is just an alternative lifestyle[/i]"
First off being gay isn’t a "lifestyle", it's an orientation with the living part up to the individual. And there's nothing wrong with being gay, though your ilk have lied their asses of to make it seem that way, I won't get started on that...


, "[i]and that people werent created by God but that we came from monkeys[/i]"

Not even close and mocking will get you no where...
Evolution is understood empirically and scientifically understood reality, where as a sky daddy coming down and breathing magic into dirt is not...

"[i]Christians rights are being revoked.[/i]"
CHRISTIAN RIGHTS ARE BEING TAKEN AWAY!?!?!?!?
THE AUTHOR OF THIS CRAP IS AN ARROGANT SHIT!!!!
CHRISTIAN RIGHTS DO NOT INCLUDE DOMINIONISM. EVERYTIME A CHRISTIAN'S BELIEFS AREN'T AFFIRMED, UPHELD, AGREED WITH, AND PROPOGATED THEY SCREAM THEIR RIGHTS ARE BEING TAKEN AWAY. WHAT THE F**K ABOUT GAY RIGHTS??? GAYS GET BEAT ON, SPIT ON, OSTRACIZED, DENIED HOUSING AND EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES IN EMPLOYEMENT, PRIVACY, TO HAVE FAMILIES, AND BE MARRIED. WHEN YOU F**KS GO THROUGH ALL THIS THEN YOU CAN SAY CHRISTIAN RIGHTS ARE BEING TAKEN AWAY, UNTIL THEN SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU WHINEY SPOILED LITTLE F**KS AND STOP THINKING EVERYTHING HAS TO COW TOW TO YOU!!!!!



"[i]People are being told they are all god inside and strange religieons are beng made "popular" by the scummy, sorry, pathetic people in hollywood[/i]."
We are Gods baby, the closest thing you're ever going to get to a God...

People are being told there is a God and they need to ashamed of themselves and admonish all free will and thought in order to avoid his sadistic wrath and this idiotic religion is being made "dominant" by the scummy, sorry, pathetic people of christianity


"[i]Eveil and sin is being glorified by the world just like the bible predicted and the nation is being sucked into it.[/i]"
Ironically christianity doesn't realize how evil it is, it's old testament God's and it's blood lust and dominionism throughout history to now.

"[i]Every nation that turned its back on God through time has fallen.[/i]"
Funny I can name plenty of nations that adopted christianity and fell: Constantine, Rome, and on and on...


"[i]Its sad to sit back and watch all the sin of the world be glorified. Real true born again children of God need to stick together and speak up- against the wicked sins of this world. WE need to take up our bibles and crosses and show the world that if they do not accept Jesus Christ then they will burn in hell for all of eternity.[/i]"
You're doing no such thing, it's fine that you do whatever stupidity you want in your own damn churches but if you take it our here and try to shove this down our throats you'll end up with a war you'll never be able to handle...

"[i]I think any site that tries to ban God is just a sign of the times, but one day the people who dont believe will also stand before the one true living God, and as the bible says they will bow there knee and confess that he is Lord, then God will look down on non believers and say "depart from me, i know you not" and there begins the eternal seperation. I think that is sad but it will happen.[/i]"
Right and the koran says the same of it's God and the bagita vat, so on and son. Your religion is just a pebble in the bucket and nothing tangible to support it...


"[i]The only good part in all that is that those people in that one final moment before they are condemned to an eternity in hell will see that there was really a God and that they have spent there whole lives fighting against their creator. One day, when the trumpets blow, everyone will see that God is very real, heaven is real, and that hell is not only real but very hot.[/i]"

Wishful thinking of the delusional mind....

Anonymous said...

Utter fucking garbage. Just like I believed once. That Jesus character you worship is a liar and a fraud. Oh and even though i am not gay i don't like your homophobic insults. People are gay because that is just the way they are wired, not because they are evil.
Where was God when I needed him in my time of crisis? Absolutely nowhere! I can now say i am perfectly happy without this God and Jesus crap. You are a fundie twat, now piss off back to your christian cult.

Anonymous said...

so are ya'll not even a little bit scared that hell could be real?

webmdave said...

Hi Preston!

Are you afraid that the Greek Underworld, otherwise known as Hades, might be real?

If not, why not?

Anonymous said...

Let me ask you this, preston. Are you scared that you may be going to Islamic Hell? That's where you're going if Allah is real and you hold to the blasphemous Christian beliefs.

My guess is that you're not the slightest bit concerned about that possibility because the idea is so outlandish. Does that answer your question?

Anonymous said...

preston wrote:
so are ya'll not even a little bit scared that hell could be real?
posted: 12/20/2006 3:44 PM EST  

Dano replies: I was when I was seven, but by the time I reached eight, I had figured out that the concepts of heaven and hell are so patently ridiculous, illogical, irrational, and Homo Sapiens chauvinistic, that I threw them in the trash and never looked back!
Dan (Your friend till you grow up)

Anonymous said...

well in most cases, depending on the denomination, the muslims believe that you will go to hell for only a period of time. So if i have one atom of faith in allah then i'll end up in heaven in the long run. my God is the same as the god of muhamad, he just believed that the bible is distorted from what god was really trying to say. So basically i'm not afraid at all.

but no, you answered my question with a question. Are you in the slightest bit scared Jim?

Anonymous said...

and no, webmaster. My relationship with God requires me to be pure and holy. Elysium would be my destination; Since we're talking about the greek now.

Anonymous said...

Preston,
Great question! Why didn't we think about that...oh wait...EX-Christian.
Sure,dedicate your whole life (and a substantial portion of your earnings) to a belief system based on the ancient and arbitrarily combined writings of...well we don't know who really wrote a lot of it...despite its inherent contradictions, lack of evidence, unrealistic/unnatural occurances, and undocumented characters (yup...that includes Jesus himself, no historians of his time even mention him).

All because some Tantrum-Driven-Invisible-Sky-Daddy is going to torture you for eternity if you don't "believe" in him and love him (for there is no truer love than the love born of fear)...and not because that belief is a recruitment tool for a cult called Christianity. You know, the same ones who worship a god that is supposed to be omniscient and omnipotent. Which means he could have prevented such a situation, but "his glory" was more important.

And there is NO WAY you could be wrong and some of the other hundreds of religious groups got it right. Aren't you the slightest bit scared about that?
Because, in answer to your question, I am not in the least. That is one of the benefits of being rational and using common sense.

Anonymous said...

Fundie says: Every nation that turned its back on God through time has fallen.

Let's be more specific. Every nation that has fallen that turned its back on God has fallen. Every nation that has fallen that did NOT turn its back on God has fallen. (Exactly what do we mean by nation here, anyway? Every single last person, according to the Christan Census?) Now, currently, there are many nations that are still existant that have theoretically turned THEIR backs on God. When exactly are they considered "fallen"?

Anonymous said...

preston wrote:
and no, webmaster. My relationship with God requires me to be pure and holy. Elysium would be my destination; Since we're talking about the greek now.
posted: 12/20/2006 4:39 PM EST

Dano would like to know:
Yo preston! Are you having a relationship with the God of the old testament who is guilty of every heinous crime imaginable? You are keeping yourself pure and holy for that monster? He is portrayed as so evil in the bible, I don't even like to think about him.
Dano (humanist)

Anonymous said...

You feel big, Preston? Coming here to stick to the man to us ex-christians? Gonna tell your church about this, or are you just going to feel good about it later?

I'd respond to you too... but frankly you're even dumber than Andrew F. as you're putting your little sticky notes onto his original post.

Anonymous said...

Hell may be hot, but according to the bible, heaven is hotter.

Anonymous said...

well i'm proud of you.
but rational thinking is what i'm doing in my situation.

i've seen teeth grow back and tumors fall off when someone commands the name of Jesus. I could begin to tell you the things i've felt inside of my body, but even muhammad had seizures when the angel told him "god's" prophesy. So i don't believe my personal feelings are much of an argument. the bible is full of a good hundred prophesys that have already been fulfilled. What more proof do i need spirula? I've read bible verses where god orders mass amounts of people to be killed. And frankly, i don't understand the bible as much as i should. Some of the things it says are contradicting and very confusing. But after witnessing miracles and prophesies fulfilled with my own eyes, and feeling incredible feelings all by the name of Jesus.. who am i not to believe? God is sometimes contradicting, but he's god and he can do whatever he wants, we're not even worthy to be his slaves! I'll never be able to understand some of the things he does, but that's why he is my god. I wouldn't want to be bossed around by something i can understand.

Anonymous said...

preston: "but no, you answered my question with a question. Are you in the slightest bit scared Jim?"

Good grief. The answer is NO, I am not the slightest bit afraid of Hell for I have absolutely no reason to believe it is real. I hope that is now clear.

I think you had better learn more about Islam. According to Allah, Jesus was a great prophet but categorically NOT his "son". In fact, to assert that god would don flesh to become a mere mortal is considered by Muslims to be a great blasphemy punishable by eternity in Hell.

Anonymous said...

Tut tut Andrew F - you don't know your bible very well do you? According to Revelation, NOBODY will spend eternity in hell. Hell itself will be thrown into the lake of fire, and THAT'S where everybody who doesn't think EXACTLY like Andrew will end up, writhing in molten sulphur forever while he and the other handful of True Christians (TM) watch and enjoy.

What a loving, wonderful god Andrew believes in.

R.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Milton, why would i ever feel good talkin to people who think i'm extremely irrational and immature for believing in jesus? i don't think i'm proud that people think i'm stupid.

You got me Jim. Perhaps muhammad is right compared to all the writers of the bible? for some reason i think i'll stick to Jesus.

Anonymous said...

sorry that seemed like sarcasm. i'm really not that mean

Anonymous said...

preston: "Perhaps muhammad is right compared to all the writers of the bible? for some reason i think i'll stick to Jesus."

I'm surprised you would rely upon mere humans, whether individual or by the legion, to convey such an important doctrine. Isn't the question which religion is backed by god herself? If god were to communicate her word to one man, would that not trump anything produced by any number of humans?

You know, Islamic Hell is no vacation. You will long for mere "gnashing of teeth" if you end up there.

Best wishes.

Anonymous said...

Preston,

Unlike most christians who post on this site you seem to have the guts to hang around and respond to other's posts - so I'll take the time to respond to some of your points.

Essentially, in your question to Jim, you reveal one of the main problems I have with christianity. It (no matter how many protestations people make) is a religion of fear. If you follow it because you're afraid of hell, I pity you. But you're wasting your time trying to spread your fear to others - if anything I hope that by visiting this site you might start on a path to become free of your fear.

And as to the "good feelings" and (apparent) miracles you have witnessed? Well - any and every religious belief system known to humanity claims such things, does that make them true? If that's what you base your beliefs on, particularly seeing as you acknowledge the weaknesses of the bible, then I pity you even more. I wonder what a person like you could contribute to this world, if you weren't shackled to such a destructive, harmful belief system? I wonder if we'll ever know.

My encouragement to you is this - stick around, keep an open mind, and see what happens.

R.

boomSLANG said...

Let's see.....so being "scared" of "hell" is a fantastic, logical, and sound reason to believe in, and love, a deity? Seriously, we are to believe an "all loving" being who offers everlasting bliss---an eternal existance in the most magnificant "place" anyone could EVER conceive---would need to "scare" people shit-less, in order to gain followers? Think about it.

To make an analogy-----is anyone out there "scared" not to love their parents? And if you are "scared" and have been coersed into loving your parents for some perverse reason, you probably don't really love them, do you? That said---wouldn't a "God" want genuine love?....not love out of coersion? Don't you Christians see how utterly ridiculous you sound with your heaven and hell rantings?(rhetorical)

But on to the question: The notion that a non-physical "thing"..i.e.. a "soul", can be tortured in a "physical" place, by "physical" means, for an infinite amount of time is f%cking ABSURD. It's empirically impossible, and even conceptually impossible. Moreover, even if we humor the religionist/dualist for about 9 seconds, such torture in the alleged "lake-o-fire" would "soon" become meaningless and pointless, precisely because it would "never end". There'd be no frame of reference. So "no"... there's NOTHING to be "scared" of...only ignorance.

Don't even get me goin' on "miracles". I am "that mean" when people try to pass off bullshit.

Anonymous said...

boomslang, miracles happen whether you want to believe they do or not. I'm not believing in god for fear of going to hell i was only asking a question on an ex-christian stand point. Without love you are nothing, isn't that what the bible says?

deception runs so think in your blood that i can't say anything to make you even think that i could be right, on any level. The bible has been right in the past, and it will be right in the future. They already have the blueprints for the new temple and all the furniture has been completed. The united nations are in the process of making a world leader. Mastercard just bought out a company that puts rice sized "pills" inside of your right hand or forehead for identification and such. Wait! doesn't the bible say the mark of the beast will be in the right hand or forehead. It sure does. Natural disasters are happening more and more; it's like a pendulum. The Lord will come as quickly as a theif. the king of glory is coming and you choose not to believe he exsists. You will all see no matter if you believe he exsisits or not. That's all i have to say.

Anonymous said...

uhg, that was such a typical christian thing to say..

Anonymous said...

The Bible says Blah blah blah. In my opinion the Bible is not worth the paper it is printed on. It is mearly a collection of writings and letters that were carefuly choosen while the rest were hidden away.
A Christian's entire faith is based on the contents of these writings. Yet they have never read the other stories that didn't make it. Their faith is not in God but in those who assembled the Bible. Those who thought the earth was flat and at the center of the universe.
Even Jesus said "seek the truth and it shall set you free". Damn straight.

Anonymous said...

preston said "deception runs so think [thick?] in your blood that i can't say anything to make you even think that i could be right, on any level."

That is extraordinarily rude, preston. Moreover, please read this link to learn what an ad hominem attack is and why it's a fallacy. If your arguments are not persuasive, I suggest you focus on improving your arguments rather than hurling insults.

preston "The bible has been right in the past, and it will be right in the future."

The same can be said of Nostradamus, and for similar reasons (e.g. vaguely-worded open-ended predictions). Do you therefore put credence in all of Nostradamus's predictions?

preston: "...Mastercard just bought out a company that puts rice sized 'pills' inside of your right hand or forehead for identification and such..."

I'll bet this is either an urban legend or something that has been wildly misinterpreted. Please cite your evidence for this.

I'm guessing that you also believe Jesus fulfilled "hundreds" of messianic prophecies. Am I right? If so, can you please tell me how you distinguish between legitimate prophecies and midrashic interpolation (i.e. mining verses from the OT, yanking them out of context, and declaring them to be "prophecies"). Can you also explain why Jesus failed to fulfill many bona fide messianic prophecies, such as becoming king of Israel and ushering in an era of world peace?

preston: "You will all see no matter if you believe he exsisits or not."

Translation: "I am right and you are wrong!" (Very convincing argument.)

preston: "That's all i have to say."

Somehow I doubt it.

Anonymous said...

i guess you are right. you are god, jim. congratulations.

i hope you have fun with your life. I'll just keep on living my delusioned misconception of what life is really about. maybe we will cross paths sometime. After all, you are a god aren't you.

Anonymous said...

preston said "i guess you are right. you are god, jim. congratulations."

I've pointed out many of your errors (as have others), and I've explained succinctly why they are errors (as have others). I've even provided several links for you. You are now being disingenuous with your "you are god" comment, which is completely asinine. If you wish to discuss any of the points raised here (sans inflammatory rhetoric), I'll be happy to follow suit. If not, then please take your comments elsewhere. Fair enough?

boomSLANG said...

boomslang, miracles happen whether you want to believe they do or not.

i've seen teeth grow back and tumors fall off when someone commands the name of Jesus

Young man, a "miracle" is defined as something that defies the laws of nature. People have been "growing teeth" since the dawn of man. There is nothing "law defying" about that. Moreover, people's bodies heal themselves without medicine all the time, and yes, even tumors disappear, just like flu symptoms "disappear", albeit, less frequently.

What you describe is nothing more than improbable coincidence. Furthermore, personal testimony means jack' around here. This is the 21st century, so if your Jesus is currently working all these miracles you speak of, surely at least one has been documented with our current technology. If you can provide such documented evidence for a "miracle", I'd be happy to take a look at it. If not, you have the credibility of a Bigfoot tracker.

I'm not believing in god for fear of going to hell i was only asking a question on an ex-christian stand point.

And I think umpteen people answered your question, even when it should've been obvious that if we are "EX"-christians, we wouldn't believe in such a place as "hell". Simply put---if we were "scared", we'd still be Christians. 'Get it?

Without love you are nothing, isn't that what the bible says?

Only speaking for myself---I couldn't give a sh*t less what the "bible says"(in case you still haven't gotten the "EX" in "Ex-christian" part) And who says we are "without love", anyway ?..who?..YOU? Y'know...it's insulting for you to waltz in here and make such implications, not to mention, you ignored everything I said in my prior post about this "love" you speak of, and how it's nothing more than coersion. Yes, you might "love" your deity with all of your "heart"---that's utterly fantastic---but for those who are skeptical, or born in the wrong geological location..."hell" awaits. "Love Jesus...or burn". THAT is the message of Christianity.

deception runs so think in your blood that i can't say anything to make you even think that i could be right, on any level.

Yes, everyone who doesn't think like "Preston" is "deceived". The bigot's mantra. Furthermore, if your invisble "god" can't convince me himself, then certainly nothing you say can make me think you are "right". Objective evidence, please. Thanks.

The bible has been right in the past, and it will be right in the future.

Okay, guy, just make sure you don't vacation to close to the "edge" of the earth, we wouldn't want you to "fall off", would we? And BTW, watch out for those domestic talking jackasses, they've become a real nuisance out East.

The Lord will come as quickly as a theif. the king of glory is coming and you choose not to believe he exsists. You will all see no matter if you believe he exsisits or not. That's all i have to say.

Okay little man, we got it..we'll all reconvert by tomorrow noon. 'Swear to gawd. lol.

Anonymous said...

"the bible is full of a good hundred prophesys that have already been fulfilled."

Nobody's used that one since last month!

Jim Arvo: "preston: '...Mastercard just bought out a company that puts rice sized 'pills' inside of your right hand or forehead for identification and such...'

I'll bet this is either an urban legend or something that has been wildly misinterpreted. Please cite your evidence for this."

I actually did see this on "How It's Made" or some such TV show (Science Channel or Discovery) but it wasn't Master Card, just the company that invented them. No one EVER mentioned putting the chip in the HEAD, but the hand and upper arm were recommended for using the chip as an alternative to a cardkey system, as was shown. Even though the chips held no personal data, the system doesn't seem to be that popular.

Roger O'Donnell said...

On the subject of RFIDs, they're REALLY easy to clone and forge... so the Beast uses CRAP Tech.

Black Hats... the last bastion against the anti-Christ. Who'da thought?

Love

Grandpa Harley xxx

Anonymous said...

Preston,
I have not visited this site in a while. I am not ex-christian. My views are from being brought up non-religious in a Christian society. What comes to your mind when I say the word "pagan"? Polytheism, idolatry, and blood sacrifice are some things that come to my mind. Blood sacrifice theology is a superstitious belief of payment for cleansing of our souls through the spilling of blood. It is one of the most pagan and barbaric of theological beliefs. However, blood sacrifice theology is a part of Judaism, Christianity, an Islam. No matter how the religions wish to evolve their beliefs are rooted in the darkness and superstitions of the pagans we have all descended from.

n/a said...

preston wrote:

i've seen teeth grow back and tumors fall off when someone commands the name of Jesus.

preston, whose teeth grew back and which teeth were they? How old was the person, and how long did it take for them to grow back? Did a dentist examine this person? Who had the tumor, how old were they, where was it, and how did it "fall off?" Was the person under a doctor's care, and if so how did the doctor react to this? Since you don't supply any details and seem very casual about what would be absolutely extraordinary events I have to conclude that you are making them up.

Anonymous said...

Hell is very hot! How do you know that Hell is Hot, when I understand that there is no such place, as a Hot-Hell, there are many Hells and they are not Hot, People in England use to say the bury there potatoes in Hell fior the winter ()In other words dig a hole in the ground put there potatoes in the hole and cover them with dirt This is the true diffinition of Hell, sheol, Hole in the ground that is all nothing more than that "Gehenna" (Hell) is the dump outside Jerusalem, and it burnt day and night and the fire was never consumed because there was always new trash Offal or dead bodies, thrown into daily, and the fire was never out. this is the so-called christian Hell.. Gehenna, tartarus, and hades, all three of these Greek terms (Or words)are translated into one english word "Hell" which is idiotic to say the least.
And so is Christ-en-dom!
In Apostasy- error of the worst sorts.

Anonymous said...

>>
i've seen teeth grow back and tumors fall off when someone commands the name of Jesus.
>>

SURE you have. OK; now you're a liar. Got any video? Pics? Some evidence other than "you saw"? -Wes.

Anonymous said...

YOU can't produce a shred of evidence to convince anyone that your religion is true, so now you're having a hissy fit and are throwing insults? My turn: Fuck off, Preston - go frequent a fundy site. -Wes.

Anonymous said...

My only comment is: are you so sure there really is a hell. I didn't say there isn't, I just said there may not be. Before you make any statements, you should make awfully you know what you are talking about. Things might work out a little different in life than you originally thought.

Anonymous said...

This message is for all of you posters who are stuck arguing about whether there is a hell or not, or a god or not. Can I get anyone for a moment to just stick to whether or not you believe in blood sacrifice to pay for cleansing of your sins or your soul or whatever? Do you believe this or not? If you do, then you believe in the superstitions of pagan man. The effort here should be to shed these pagan beliefs by looking into ourselves and ask if we really want to worship a being that accepts a blood sacrifice as payment for this cleansing. Perhaps if Christians understand that their religion evolved from pagan belief and is forever tied to it then they will shed this faith and search elsewhere.

Anonymous said...

Well, you know what Andrew? Here's what I think....I think you are so full of shit your eyes are brown. And, I agree with Mr. Milton...fuck you and all you self-rightous, bible thumping, hypocrite crispies. Your too narrow minded to see that this whole "my way is the right way" is SO arrogant; and intolerant of ANY other belief system other than yours. Where's the "love of jeezus" in that? Your as bad as the muslims. According to those homicidal maniacs theirs is the "one true religion". There is NO one true religion for fuck's sake!
You think that I'm going to YOUR hell too...well fuck you. People make their own heaven or hell...and
one or the other is here on this beautiful planet numbnuts like you keep fucking up because you think your god is going to destroy it and make a new one for your kind. You and your kind, along with the greedy, money-grubbing assholes that have more than they'll ever need, continue to destroy this planet and turn it into a hell because, "Hey! It doesn't matter! "God" is going tomake us "righteous" folks a whole new one!"... right? Uh-huh...and why would "god" give a new planet to the same assholes who fucked it up in the first place? Wake up and smell the shit your shoveling dude.

Anonymous said...

"strange religieons are beng made 'popular' by the scummy, sorry, pathetic people in hollywood"

I agree...Kirk Cameron and Mel Gibson need to STFU.

Anonymous said...

Anony: "Before you make any statements, you should make awfully you know what you are talking about. Things might work out a little different in life than you originally thought."

How about if we are awefully sure, you have no idea about what you are talking about. Things might work out a little different in life if you thought.

Anonymous said...

Perhaps I need to look beyond such trivial matters like spelling, but that was all that I could look at. It distresses me that the word "Eveil" was in there. One read through would have caught those errors.

Anonymous said...

Listen folks, I've been reading on this website for over 2 years and I've seen these two, Andrew and Preston post their same ignorant garbage on here and they have not read one single argument objectively opposing their beliefs, the reason is that they have been convinced that they are so right in their beliefs, they are so afraid to admit that they could possibly be wrong, because if they were to agree with us and then if we were to suddenly convert back to Christianity by some intervened divined miracle, then they think they would be left standing in the middle of hell and their imaginary God would not take them back.

These people(and all Christians)are psychotic, they suffer from fear induced neurotic psychosis, they are mentally unstable, this shows the condition of the American people, the majority of Americans (mostly Christians and political leaders) are on prescribed neurotic medication and anti-depressants.

They do not have the ability to focus and identify with present day reality.

This condition is so very obvious, so lets leave them be, and let them post their ignorant nonsense, because they have been told that their mental conditioning is correct with ancient insane scripture, their agenda is not to find reason with our comments, but to foster their mental sickness to make themselves appear to look righteous and mentally stable.

The religious Christian agenda is to make it's doctrine appear to be mentally stable and undeniably correct, that's the reason it needs an agenda to spread, Christianity will never end, because it needs to expand in order to populate it's own mentally unstable disease.

All held unverifiable beliefs are only passed down verbally through indoctrination by people in a position of trust and allowed only by the brain to accept false religious dogma's.

Mental instability accurs by not allowing the brain (from false pastoral induced fear) to reject or to analyze by objective reasoning, religious indoctrination, the only cure is to allow one's brain to analyze all unverifiable beliefs, by using normal born-with reason and objectivity, this will remove the unnecessary fear and give back one's original mental stability once held, before acceptance of the indoctrination of false religious dogma's.

We ex-c's, are proof of this reversed mental process, but the fundies cannot see this, nor will they allow themselves to see this.

webmdave said...

I member reading about y'all's heeling services ware toomers were falling off in the name of Jesus.

It was a mircle!

Here's more mircle cures for toomers for you ignant infidels:

Magical healing

But not everyone baleeves in the mircle powder of Gawd. Eben some Cristians think faith heblin is dum.

Lookie here: Rick Ross

Anonymous said...

Does anyone really believe that the creator of the universe is siting up in the sky, being concerned about what the latest version of the ape, on a rather insignificant planet, of a rather small star, thinks about anything? Isn't that being kinda "Homo Sapiens chauvinistic"?
There are at least a billion other planets out there similar to earth, with a large probability of supporting life.
I mean, does anyone really think the old guy with the beard, up there, worries about what kind of sex we have, or what we wear, or which cult we belong to?

Looks like we had better invent a larger God, a better God, a more moral God, a more compassionate God, than the old testament God. He is one, petty, sonofabitch!
Dan (Sorry about saying the "G-D", word)

Trancelation said...

Ahh, the End Times. It's coincidental that this . . . person should bring the En' Times up, as I've been pursuing, out of my own interest, some of the varied musings from Christians concerning them, and they all have two things in common:

1. The world is worse than it ever has been

2. Da' Glawy of da' Lawd!

1 is very interesting, because the world is obviously BETTER than it ever has been. These End Timers and their knee-jerk reactions to every sob story on CNN . . . hilarious. Every time someone doesn't say Merry Christmas, it MUST be the the Apocalypse! Well, in the original meaning of the word, it is. And what it reveals is . . . the religion is full of BS!

Anonymous said...

This is one of the reasons I don't visit this web site too often. Christians are too afraid to confront the truth that I present and the Ex-Christians, atheists, agnostics, or whatever are so wrapped up in their logic they can't see the simple way to shut the Christians up. As I have always said it is the theology of blood sacrifice that should be the dividing line. Before Judaism, Christianity, and Islam mankind worshipped god/s and performed blood sacrifices to pay off their god/s. Judaism presented monotheism without idolatry, but did not take away the pagan practice of making blood sacrifices. Christianity provided a religion that has only one symbolic sacrifice (Jesus), but it has become polytheistic with the Trinity of gods and most Christians worship a Gentile image/idol of Jesus. Islam contains the practice of blood sacrifce in the Koran and Muslims practice suicide bombings which is an offshoot of blood sacrifice theology (they get paid off by going to heaven and getting a shitload of virgins). So please just tell Christians, Jews, and Muslims that you wish not to believe in such a god that seems to be appeased by acts of superstitious, barbaric, blood sacrifice. I dare Christians to address and defend their pagan blood sacrifice beliefs to me. I also encourage the non-religious to address this as well because I am tired of your logical bullshit as well. Does your heart believe in in a god that is appeased by blood sacrifice? You will then understand that Jew, Christian, and Muslim are evolved pagans.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous,

We can appreciate your efforts to find some singular subject with which to confound Christians, but attacking ex-christians for not endorsing your subject du jour seems counterproductive. What makes you think that by “just telling Christians, Jews, and Muslims that you wish not to believe in such a god that seems to be appeased by acts of superstitious, barbaric, blood sacrifice” is going to somehow awaken them? They realize the “bloodlust” of their religions, and they don’t care. In the case of christians especially, they just want others to believe in it as well. Telling them they are appeased by blood sacrifices has about as much impact as saying they are all born with a sinful nature. They would agree wholeheartedly by pointing to the “cleansing power of the shed blood of jesus”. All they really want to do is evangelize, so pointing out the bloody nature of their religious fixation won’t make a bit of difference. I hope you’ve noticed that about their responses.

It seems odd you say you are “tired of (our) logical bull$hit” when that seems to be exactly what you are attempting to do, apply your “theology of blood sacrifice logic” to the argument. Are you saying there is only one argument with which to engage christians?

boomSLANG said...

LOL! Um, can someone please define "logical bullshit"? I mean, at the risk of tiring anyone, it sounds like an oxymoron...e.g.."work party"

Anonymous said...

boomSlANG,

I wanted to point that out to them, but I thought I'd give them the benefit of the doubt until they posted again.

Jumbo shirmp anyone? LOL

Anonymous said...

HAHA! Great parody! I know it's not possible for anyone to be so, dare I say, ignorant, to believe in such nonsense!

Oh wait, that was a fundamental Christian poster??? Well, nevermind then.

Anonymous said...

"i've seen teeth grow back and tumors fall off when someone commands the name of Jesus."

And I call Bull Shit!

Either you are a deluded fool who was taken in by conmen. Or you're a liar.

If not, please provide information to verify that these miracles actually took place - names and addresses of the subjects and witnesses, when and where these miracles took place, and verification by an authentic medical practitioner.

Anonymous said...

I agree, Warnepiece... Anonymous seems to be making irrational statements...

Religion is a mythology, so I'll use a fitting mytological analogy :-)

Religion, very pre-BCE was segregated by natural doctrine and geography. Early religion chased Natural phenomenon, fertility gods, sun gods, etc., etc., to explain the unknown. However, over time the Natural fear of the Unknown in certain Natural objects, fell away, and so did the belief system over time.

However, just before BCE, religions started employing scribes in a flurry, to record traditional oral belief systems, in writing. The focus of religion (belief system) at that point, moved from a focus on natural phenomenon to "words on paper/papyrus". Reality and answers to life were no longer sought in nature; the answers to life's questions were to be found in a holy book(s). Words replaced natural observation and rational truth.

Around CE, there was a race to codify Holy Scripture into writing, for political and legal reasons. The written reality, in the beginning was like a nine-headed hydra. Over time, other religious heads challenged and attacked the nine-headed hydra, and each time a religious head was struck off it was replaced by two new ones.

The source of belief systems started in religion, and now today, its based on rhetoric. The rhetoric is supported by those seeking political power and control. Chopping off one head, call it "blood sacrifice", will likely do nothing more than create a rhetoric where two new heads/options are created - now the religious have more options to choose from.

I agree with you, someone providing a "blood sacrifice" as a means to kill the multi-headed rhetoric hydra is playing into the hand of religion. Rhetoric will not change a person's belief system alone.

As well, it's as irrational for a person to suggest that logic is useless, while they themselves are using logic; as a religious person using irrational thought to justify their belief with words.

Someone just appears to be drumming up a controversial topic to get a response from all parties. The truth, pardon the extreme over-simplification.... is that religion will continue to exist, until language and communication evolve. There are more people benefiting in all forms of society from the dysfunction of language, communication, and rhetoric - and this dysfunction has no borders, in jobs, careers, families, educational institutions, religions, gov't, etc.

Anyway, this is deeper than it needs to be; there is no hell, it's a word, and its useless. However, I probably don't agree with the religious who suggest the word has meaning. As well, I see anonymous' post as a rationalized irrational statement, but hey, that's just me and my rhetoric :-)

Anonymous said...

religionkills,

"Hey! It doesn't matter! "God" is going tomake us "righteous" folks a whole new one!"... right?

A perfect example of this was James Watt, Secretary of the Interior under Ronald Reagan. He essentially used the very same argument for opening up the National Forests to vastly expanded exploitation by mining and timber industries, and attempts to scale back environmental protections and pollution controls.

Fundies kill.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_G._Watt

Anonymous said...

Hehehehe, glad I'm not the only one who sees an anonymous poster with a blind spot for a brain.

Anonymous said...

Srylm.

I couldn’t agree more. I think anonymous has a cause they want to flog in front of us and we haven’t been paying them enough attention.

I like how you describe anonymous’ statement as “rationalized irrationality”. Another excellent oxymoron.

Anonymous said...

Ex-Christians, atheists, agnostics, or whatever are so wrapped up in their logic they can't see the simple way to shut the Christians up. As I have always said it is the theology of blood sacrifice that should be the dividing line.

Yeah, us and our goddam logic and stuff.

Good luck with your "sure fire" approach. I predict you will have a success rate of...well, no success actually.

jimearl said...

I have read all the comments and wanted to make a few of my own.
First, as a non-believer or atheist if you will, I'm not the least bit concerned with the probability of going to any non-existent place. That would cover heaven or hell. I also have no concern of the wrath of any deity I have ever heard of to this point in my life because of the lack of evidence of any such deity. And to keep this brief, I also am unconcerned about the blood sacrifice issue bought up by another anonymous poster for the same reason. I don't believe any such deity ever existed. If I am correct, then all the other issues are mute. Prove to me that a deity exists and then I will have to deal with all the other issues. Without that proof, I am content to live my life as I am presently living it: without fear of anyone elses delusions. Cheers, Jim Earl

Anonymous said...

Still around, preston? Hi, my name is ryan and I am as wicked as god. What a pleasure it is to make your acquantance, like seeing a deer in the headlights.

You talked once or twice about bible "prophecy". These prophecies are vague, poetic generalities that refer to the political and religious situations of the ancient jews. They do not refer to events that will take place centuries later. As the season of rabid materialism is upon us, I thought I would review the infamous isaiah 7 as an example.

If you read the chapter slowly, you will see that the mysterious child in verse 14 will be born in ahaz' lifetime, as a sign to him that his enemies would be defeated. It is not a prophecy of jesus.

Also be advised that the hebrew word that was translated as virgin is "almah" meaning young woman. The hebrew word for virgin is "betulah". The point being, of course, is that if isaiah had meant betulah, why did he not say betulah?

You have been trained to see in the bible what your trainers want you to see. I have, several times, sat a fundie down and went through that chapter, line by line,word by word, and they still insisted that it was a prophecy of jesus. As all of us here know, xianity is simply based on unthinking faith.

Most of your kind thinks that the bible proves itself with all this foretelling of the future. Bunk. Show me an authentic jewish document, dating from bce, that specifically says that a baby named jesus will be born, at a certain date, to a woman named mary whose husband was named joseph. Then I will gladly listen. Otherwise,shut the bleeding hell up.

And by the way, your sleazy attempt to frighten us with your hell is the mark of intellectual bankruptcy.

Anonymous said...

You'd think that, with eternity and endless space at his disposal, God could be a teensy bit more creative than putting all "souls" or smoky puffs or whatever into one of only two possible places. You'd think that this "God" "Jesus" could think of his creations as individuals and not just give them either eternal torture or eternal bliss.

How about eternal, I don't know, "meh?" Or maybe a thousand years of meh, a thousand years of "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO THE AAAAAAGONY! OH MY GOOOOOOOOOD!!!!!!!" and then twelve thousand years of insanity. Or maybe Hitlers, instead of going to heaven like the rule God made up says, send Hitler to some work camp for the combined years of all his vcictims, then annihilate him.

See? I'm obviously smarter than your stupid old "Lord." You probably are too, but youe're too much of a pussy to admit that you worship something completely dull, resembling a three-thousand year old Jewish priest or somethin'.

But then I'm assuming you'd think.

Anonymous said...

Preston, if you are still around, you make this way too easy. You stated in your post of 12/20/06 at 5:07 PM “I wouldn't want to be bossed around by something i can understand.”

So I take it that means, as a True Christian, you only want to be bossed around by something you DON’T understand. But you DO want to be bossed around…and you DO want to remain ignorant of whomever is doing the “bossing”.

Dictators drool over finding mindless sheep like you.

Anonymous said...

I must have missed that one earlier. Thanks Warnepiece. I backtracked and read the whole thing. I loved the part about god being contradictory, but he's god, so he can do as he wishes.

What emerges is this picture of a confused but probably happy adolescent, who is busy being disciplined and ordered around by an incomprehensible being who says and does things that do not make sense, and who cannot be questioned.

preston, I can suggest some really hot sites that cater to those of your predilections.

Anonymous said...

Warnepiece, I will not argue whether or not it was logic that gave me my disbelief in blood sacrifice theology. I don't feel that it was logic, but some knowledge that plays a part in my disbelief. Arguing the validity of whether blood sacrifice actually works might be something of a logical nature. Logic comes in when I use logic to say that perhaps another approach should be used besides the arguing over whether or not there is god, or whether or not there is a hell. I don't see you getting anywhere because neither side can prove or disprove god or hell or whatever. I have found my approach very effective in silencing evangelicals. So if anyone believes in the literal blood sacrifice of Jesus for our sins you are a pagan. Thanks for your comments.

Anonymous said...

I can't have much faith in Preston when he doesn't have his facts straight.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/mondex.asp

Anonymous said...

Anonymous regarding the blood sacrifice,

Thanks for your input.

More often than not, when arguing with christians, we have to argue with the points, or the illogic, they raise, repeatedly. It is obvious that most christians who come to this website have spent little time thinking about what they believe and why they believe it. That is why arguing with them about a blood sacrifice would have little, if any, impact on them. Almost all the chistians who’ve posted DO assert that there is a god and there is a hell. Few want to argue about whether their beliefs are based on a paganistic practice. I would venture to say that most don’t care; they know almost all of their holidays are based on pagan holidays, they realize many church rituals and accoutrements are also based on paganism. So trying to steer the conversation over to blood sacrifice as part of the pagan mix, I doubt, would make any of them rethink their position, or make them go away.

You may have had some luck challenging evangelicals with that argument, but it is possible you have run into the few christians who are willing to think rationally about their belief. I haven’t seen evidence of that from the christians who come and post here. Their position seems to be “Believe it because I believe it, or go to hell!”

Anonymous said...

Thought I'd be #80,...You really make god out to be a monster.

How in the world could you expect any intelligent person to follow your torturer of souls?

Thanks for the reminder of how ridiculous you fundy christies are!

Anonymous said...

Wasn't going to respond, but what the heck; there hasn't been a real weenie roast in at least a month.

"once youre a saved born again christian, if its real, you cant just give it up. you cant go back on it or deny it because God will make sure he gets you back no matter what that takes."

Gonna drag me kicking and screaming, eh? How 'bout that! John Calvin would be proud of you.

"This world is comin to an end fast...blah...blah...blah...and that people werent created by God but that we came from monkeys..."

If the world is coming to an end, then why worry? And by the way, no one is saying we came from monkeys.

"Christians rights are being revoked."

Cite just one example, please.

"Every nation that turned its back on God through time has fallen."

Top 20 countries w/highest atheist population:

Sweden, Vietnam, Denmark, Norway, Japan, Czech Republic, Finland, France, South Korea, Estonia, Germany, Russia, Hungary, Netherlands, Britain, Bulgaria, Slovenia, Israel, Canada, Latvia (see here).

Hmmm...most of 'em have been around a lot longer than even the U.S.. Guess God wasn't too interested in those countries, eh? Especially Israel.

"I think any site that tries to ban God..."

Site Purpose & Disclaimer.

"The only good part in all that is that those people in that one final moment before they are condemned to an eternity in hell will see that there was really a God and that they have spent there whole lives fighting against their creator."

Well, I appreciate your honesty in saying that you would enjoy seeing people different from you suffer. After all, you said that's the "good part."

It's people like you who put the "mental" in fundamentalist.

Preston,

"so are ya'll not even a little bit scared that hell could be real?"

Nope.

"i've seen teeth grow back and tumors fall off when someone commands the name of Jesus."

The medical community should know about this. Have you considered telling them? Be prepared to present evidence and submit to peer review, though.

"...i don't believe my personal feelings are much of an argument."

Excellent! I'm looking forward to your logical and rational presentation of the facts, along with evidentiary proofs.

"...the bible is full of a good hundred prophesys that have already been fulfilled."

That's a tired old eschatological canard. Even Christians can't agree on the proper interpretation of alleged Messianic prophecy. Some say all has already been fulfilled (preterists), others say some have yet to be fulfilled (dispensationalists), and Jews say none of them have been fulfilled. Thus, skeptics require a bit more than simple assertions when it comes to biblical prophecy.

"Some of the things it says are contradicting and very confusing."

Yes they are, and your honesty here is commendable. If I may be so bold, rather than dismissing the contradictions by having faith that there is a solution, why don't you entertain other possibilities? For example, can you admit to yourself that the Bible may very well be the work of mankind, rather than of God?

"...feeling incredible feelings..."

Feelings are wonderful, and for you they are compelling. The rest of us require more.

"who am i not to believe?

As a human being, you are entitled to question what you read, see, hear, and even what you feel. Do you believe everything you are told? Of course not. Don't fall into the trap of "selective skepticism."

"God is sometimes contradicting, but he's god and he can do whatever he wants..."

An appeal to force is not a good reason to have faith. In fact, a good argument could be made that such a thing couldn't properly be classified as faith at all.

"...we're not even worthy to be his slaves!"

Sounds to me as if you have some self-esteem issues.

"I wouldn't want to be bossed around by something i can understand."

In other words, you don't really want to know. You're happy remaining ignorant. Would that be an accurate assessment?

"Without love you are nothing, isn't that what the bible says?"

1 Cor. 13 indeed. However, that was not the question you asked. You asked, "so are ya'll not even a little bit scared that hell could be real?" (12/20, 3:44 PM). This implies you are saying we should be afraid. Thus, it is a reasonable guess that perhaps you already are. Afraid, that is.

"...deception runs so [thick] in your blood..."

Setting aside that this is a personal attack that boomSLANG is more than capable of handling, with your admitted lack of inquisitiveness, how on earth could you possibly know when you are being deceived?

Well, it appears you got flustered and left. If you ever feel like presenting actual, independently verifiable evidence, do stop by again.

Grandpa Harley,

"Black Hats... the last bastion against the anti-Christ. Who'da thought?"

Ironic, isn't it? :)

Anonymous @ 12/21 0803 EST,

"I don't visit this web site too often."

"So please just tell Christians, Jews, and Muslims that you wish not to believe in such a god..."

It's obvious you don't visit too often. If you did, you would know that telling Christians we don't wish to believe does absolutely no good.

And speaking only for myself, my skepticism of gods extends to the non-barbaric ones as well.

"I also encourage the non-religious to address this as well because I am tired of your logical bullshit as well."

Well, I can tell you're not exactly fond of logic, that much is certain. As for your hostility toward us, might I suggest you express it somewhere else?

"Does your heart believe in in a god that is appeased by blood sacrifice?"

Um, no. But, as I said, I don't believe in gods period.

You do know which site you're on, right? Maybe you should read the Site Purpose & Disclaimer too.

"You will then understand that Jew, Christian, and Muslim are evolved pagans."

And this is an important distinction because...?

Anonymous said...

Ah Samuel,

I have to say that it was delightful to read your answers. Thank you!

Lorena

Avie said...

I'm sure that on some planet, your diatribe makes sense, but this is earth.

I doubt the world is "comin" to an end anytime soon. It has existed for about 4.5 billion years (to drive my point home, that number looks like this: 4,500,000,000. You can't even count that high.) and it will come to an end, as all things eventually do, but by the time it does, humanity will more than likely have gone extinct, like 99% of all other species that once inhabited this tiny little piece of rock that floats around in space.

As for your assertion that people are teaching kids that being gay is just an alternative lifestyle, I must have missed that memo. You see, where I live, most gays keep to their own communities and don't mix with "straights" for fear of persecution. Kids aren't taught that being gay is OK; they're not taught anything about sexuality whatsoever. You know, abstinence only and all that jazz.

I missed the memo about people coming from monkeys, too. I don't believe that's mentioned anywhere in "The Origin of Species" by Charles Darwin. I must have missed that somewhere.

I also didn't realize Christians' rights were being revoked. Last time I looked, there are upwards of 200 churches in my hometown alone. I can't get on a bus or go downtown with a Christian coming up to me for the sole purpose of harrassing me, handing me tracts and threatening me. On some days, I can't even go to my favorite restaurant because of Christian protestors outside the nearby women's clinic holding grotesque signs that make me lose my appetite. And yet these poor people are having their rights revoked? Shame!

I never realized that people were told that we're all "god" inside. Heresy! Strange religions being made popular by people in hollywood? Could you be referring to Tom Cruise and his Scientologist ilk? In case you haven't noticed, Tom Cruise got dumped by Paramount and he's a laughingstock. No one has respect for most of those "strange" religions you mention.

"Eveil" is being glorified like the Bible predicted? I think I missed that passage. That's quite a feat right there, as I have read the Bible. Oh, sure, a few passages could be interpreted that way, but, hey, enough interpretation and twisting and the Bible can also say that god is a space alien.

Every nation that has turned its back on god has fallen? What about Rome? Christianity became accepted there around the 4th century AD. It fell two centuries later. What about countries that rose to greatness without your god and then fell? They didn't turn their backs on him because they never had him to begin with.

One final question for you: how do you know hell is real and that it's hot? Have you been there? That's really the only way you could know. If you've been there, then you're just as "eveil" as the rest of us and no one should listen to you. If you're just repeating what you've heard in church, then it's a little thing we like to call "hearsay" and it means that you have no idea. In which case, you're as clueless as the next person. Either way, you don't know what you're talking about.

Because I like you so much, I'm going to give you some advice--free of charge. Go back to church with the rest of the simpletons before your little head explodes from the scary stuff here. Oh, and please go back to grammar school. Such an important messenger of god shouldn't write like a baby.

Anonymous said...

Even if God did have himself killed as a substitute sacrifice to himself to atone for our sins that he preordained that we would commit when he created us, WHO THE F--K. WAS HE TRYING TO IMPRESS?

That, asinine, insane, story comes from the same literature, where you can find that giving your daughters to a gang of vigilantes to be gang raped, was an appropriate gesture, in order to keep them from killing your male house guest. The bible is riddled with reprehensible, moral and ethical behavior toward women, slaves, and virtually anyone who was not a Jew.

The amazing paradox is that a book that was strung together over a period of 900 years or so, from tidbits of oral and written storytelling, would still be around at all. Much less that millions of thinking men and women would still be organizing their lives around the bronze age concepts therein.

We now know that morality has changed, and what we consider right and wrong, comes from consensus by all people, and what virtually everyone on earth today would agree upon is, it wouldn't be right to torture and kill anyone, to absolve anyone else of a crime. (except some Muslims)
Dano (Reason will eventually drive a silver stake through the heart of Christian God)

Anonymous said...

Andrew,I can tell you a true disciple of Jehovah. You'll have great sadistic pleasure in your friends and family seeing the torturer of souls, right before he flings them to a fiery hell for eternity.(not all kin believe you know).

You'll have a big grin on your face,..right?

O Happy Day,...O happy Day,....When Jesus sends,....When Jesus Sends,..Us to a Fiery Grave!

n/a said...

Anonymous wrote:

I don't see you getting anywhere because neither side can prove or disprove god or hell or whatever

Anon, first of all its not up to atheists to prove God doesn't exist, although every other Christian seems to think so. Remember Carl Sagan's famous words: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Second there have been scientific studies looking for the existence of God and they all came up negative. I lost my reference on that (its somewhere on talkorigins) but recently there was the Harvard/Templeton study, which showed prayer doesn't do anything to help patient outcomes.

Anonymous said...

Ya know all this talk about Hell reminded me of an internet joke I've seen in the past. So let's take a break from all the ernest discussion and get some engineering and chemical reasoning about this place H-E double hockey sticks.

The answer by one student was so "profound" that the professor shared it with colleagues, via the Internet, which is, of course, why we now have the pleasure of enjoying it as well.

Bonus Question: Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)?

Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law (gas cools when it expands and heats when it is compressed) or some variant.

One student, however, wrote the following:

First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the
rate at which they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving.

As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different Religions that exist in the world today. Most of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there is more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that
all souls go to Hell.

With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially.

Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in
Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand proportionately as souls are added.

This gives two possibilities:

1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase
until all Hell breaks loose.

2. If Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.

So which is it?

If we accept the postulate given to me by Teresa during my Freshman year that, "It will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you",
and take into account the fact that I slept with her last night, then number 2 must be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic and
has already frozen over.

Of course, the corollary of this theory is that since Hell has frozen over, it follows that it is not accepting any more souls and is therefore, extinct...leaving only Heaven...thereby proving the existence of a divine being which explains why, last night, Teresa kept shouting "Oh My God."

This student received the only "A" in the class.


That makes me laugh everytime I read it.

Anonymous said...

Fundies are not allowed accept information outside of the bible or wonder away from the scriptures because this would show disloyalty and abandonment from god and he might cast a punishment to befell them or someone that they know, like cause a loved one to get cancer or god may allow a tractor trailer run over them, or their house may catch on fire and they burned to death.

It's no different than what the people that wrote the bible were thinking.

Accept god's holy written word or suffer the consequences.

Nice friendly god, wouldn't ya say?

boomSLANG said...

I don't see you getting anywhere because neither side can prove or disprove god or hell or whatever

A few people touched on it...but I'm gonna hammer on it a little more. Okay, IT'S NOT a level "playing field". Again--the burden of proof falls in the lap of the one making the claim. I don't care how much spittle shoots out of the X-ian fundamentalist's mouth when they insist that "God exists because you can't prove 'He' doesn't exist"---it is NOT incumbent upon non-believers in god(s) to prove that such a "being" does not exist. Much like it's not incumbent upon you to prove to 'Nessie trackers that there is NOT an over-grown lizard dog-paddling around the Lock. Capisca?

And about this "blood sacrifice theology". Really now, I'm chompin' at the bit to see this in action. Yes, let us wait for the next over-zealous X-ian fundamentalist to come in here frothing at the mouth, so we can see him or her "silenced", and all we need do is say Jesus "bled on the cross", making it "pagan". Hey, as shakey as this theory sounds, I'll use the sh*t if it works. lol

Anonymous said...

Now that is what I call a one sided ass kicking contest. Sigh :(
It was just starting to get to be fun. Kinda like when you play chess with kids. LMAO

Anonymous said...

Warnepiece quote
. It is obvious that most christians who come to this website have spent little time thinking about what they believe and why they believe it.

jesusneverexisted.com
christianism.com

Test all things christians.

or are you fearful?

Anonymous said...

In the words of the imortal pin head:
"Burn? Oooooo such a limited imagination!"

Anonymous said...

yes samuel, i like the way you think. there are so many intelligent people on here. it's a wonder how i haven't given up on the god thing yet.

Anonymous said...

Thanks, Lorena. That's sweet. :)

Preston,

It's not about intelligence. It's about acceptance of human nature. Humans are predisposed to believe in weird things - black cats, rabbit feet, mojos, gods, ESP, UFOs, and so on - regardless of how smart we may be (see also here).

Up to 40% of American scientists profess a belief in a personal god. These people are far from being classified as stupid or ignorant. Francis Collins, for example, the leader of the Human Genome Project is a believer. He outlines why this is so in his book, "The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief."

The title of the book is somewhat misleading, in that he gives his reasons for his belief, but does not actually give any positive evidence in support of God's existence. It amounts to what he perceives, not what he can prove (a good, critical review can be read here. Just scroll down - you can't miss it).

It will always be that way. The best anyone can do is be willing to be critical - even of our own thinking - so that we can better grasp a reality that extends beyond the boundaries of our self-absorption.

Anonymous said...

Hell hath no fury, like a woman scorned!

Anonymous said...

Anyonymous Logical Person: Could you please stop associating pagans and blood sacrifice? Sheesh, you're as bad as some of the fundies! I'm a pagan, I know lots of pagans and wiccans, and NONE of us conducts ANY blood sacrifices. Modern pagans really don't need this.

Anonymous said...

What Twincats said. I'm an agnostic pagan, and all I sacrificed tonight was baked goods.

And I suspect that a lot of the "pagans perfomed blood sacrifices" stuff is and was an attempt to demonize the religious competition.

But how can you possibly make heiĆ°inn beliefs more distasteful than nailing a man to a piece of wood?

Anonymous said...

Hey spirula, thanks for the link. The first time I ever heard that bullshit logic of the crispies was from a crispie freind who has since died. I railed her ass for saying such a thing. Unfortunately, I have since heard this same bullshit come from other crispies too. Yep, crispies certainly kill...everything in their path. They would probably still be killing all the rest of us 'apostates', like the muzzies do, if they could. OH GAWD! SAVE US FROM YER FOLLOWERS!

Anonymous said...

Hey spirula, thanks for the link. The first time I ever heard that bullshit logic of the crispies was from a crispie freind who has since died. I railed her ass for saying such a thing. Unfortunately, I have since heard this same bullshit come from other crispies too. Yep, crispies certainly kill...everything in their path. They would probably still be killing all the rest of us 'apostates', like the muzzies do, if they could. OH GAWD! SAVE US FROM YER FOLLOWERS!

Anonymous said...

Andrew F said:

"once youre a saved born again christian, if its real, you cant just give it up. you cant go back on it or deny it because God will make sure he gets you back no matter what that takes."

Andrew, please be informed that only a small portion of the world's Christians think like this. It is not standard Christian doctine. Maybe you think all these billions of other christians are not christians but that does not make them not christian. God is the final judge.

The majority of Christians do not believe in being born again. Thus, they don't have to grapple with the inept idea of becoming unborn, as you obviously do. They believe in converting. Deconverting, or losing membership, are quite possible. Here are some words they use for people like us: apostates, backsliders, exChristians.

Anonymous said...

All of Andrew F's comments are just comments he is repeating from things he heard. If is is driving by out of curiosity he needs to see why atheists are atheists.Andrew if you are reading this I must warn you the truth is not for the faint of heart.

Anonymous said...

Go away, please.

Anonymous said...

I love posts like this. They make me laugh.

Anonymous said...

Is hell hot? Well I would defer to the Bible if I'm going to question that and as it turns out Jesus gave what must have been a specific account since unlike parables he actually named names.

This following account is found in Luke 16:19-31
"There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.' And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house-- for I have five brothers--so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"

We all have choices to make.

webmdave said...

That's right RH!

Hell is hot, and those who have good things in this life are destined to an agonizing time for all eternity!

That means you, RH! You have good things! You are among the richest people on earth in all of history!

You will definitely be burning in horror as you look across at the poor of the world you ignored so you could argue religion on the Internet in the comfort of your own home -- a home that exceeds the comfort standards that kings lived in, in past centuries.

Yes RH, you are condemned:

Abraham said, 'Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish

You have some choices to make RH. Either continue to live in luxury while others starve, or give your possessions to the poor, and come, follow Jesus.

Find out just how rich you are: Global Rich List

Anonymous said...

Everyone goes to heaven after they die.

1 Corinthians 15:22 - "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

1 Timothy 4:10 - "We trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."

1 John 2:2 - "He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

Is hell hot? Hell obviously doesn't exist according to the gospel of John, et al. I suppose this is just another paradox, where one has to try and de-conflict the obvious.

Paradox; "Everyone in hell is saved", according to the bible.

Anonymous said...

Dave,
Now should I take your last post in view of the Global Rich list (which I find interesting)that being American makes most of us rich?
As a believer in Christ, every church I've attended has developed individual programs to efficiently aid the poor both domestically and abroad. In fact Christian organizations are known for their charitable giving. Attribute it to Jesus' teaching to ease the burdens of life for the poor.
Then there are these independant Christian organizations established specifically for charity;
Feed The Children
Food For The Hungry
World Emergency Relief
Christian Children's Fund
World Vision etc. etc. etc.
and you get the picture. Of course the Red Cross, Salvation Army and Habitat for Humanity were all started by Christians. Go figure!

Are there any specific humanist charities that you can inform me of? I know there have been huge scandals about mismanagement regarding UNICEF (http://www.ncpa.org/pi/internat/pdinter/pdint216.html). Of course the UN has had many such scandals as does the United Way; so I won't go there.

webmdave said...

RH, you're kidding, right?

Sigh...

Here: Charity Navigator

Anonymous said...

WM:

........haha

Your point is?

webmdave said...

My point, RH, is that there are literally thousands of secular charities. To suggest that all charities only exist because of Christianity reflects a profound ignorance. Or, perhaps its more of a stubborn stupidity.

Anonymous said...

R.H, Jesus said to sell all the things you have and give to the poor.

Have you done this? If not then, be prepeared to roast for all eternity, you can still thank Jesus for this.

Anonymous said...

Actually, RH, as a Christian, I didn't do one days charitable work. And, I was still saved by grace, as long as I had faith. Those who were suffering in society were doing so, because they refused to abide by the laws of the bible, and what god expected of them.

Not that I want to get into religious-political economics, as it detracts from the "hell is very hot" topic, but regarding "faith", and charity. The reason "faith based initiatives" are being federally protected and in place, is primarily (in my research), because the religious sector (micro-socialism), hasn't done enough to offset the poverty in states that have low industrial growth margins. Basically, religion (micro-socialism), is the counter-balance to a capitalistic economy where industry is being promoted over the welfare of "other" factors (environmental, etc.)

All political parties promote that underlying micro-socialism current. This administration has not taken an economic hit, based on job market, or poverty margins. It's because they have watered the seeds of local community efforts with federal money, and limited it by using the word "faith", e.g., religion.

The point isn't to show that all political parties promote this micro-socialism, nor is it significant what the current administration's rating are... to me what is striking, is the fact that "religion" and "faith based initiatives" have had to be "prompted" with federal money and incentives, to do what they tout they do as a matter of conscience anyway - charity.

Those who give of their own volition and desire, without having to be prompted with direct monetary benefit are my heroes... not those who use the word "charity", to promote their standard of living. When someone gives of what they have (if even a penny), and it's theirs to give - it's charity... when someone is paid to give - it's a job.

Religion and church have lost sight of the individual in society... because religion believes it is the ultimate source of "good will"... yet... religion is nothing without the people. Religion is marketed as if it can provide more to society, than the sum of its people that make up its congregation (through god's intervention, etc)...

I disagree. The people provide exactly what they are capable of providing, there is no assist in the effort of charity... and if there is... then it's not charity. This "god synergy", has been the bane to humanity since the inception of mandatory servitude to the Christian/Roman Empire.

If you read many of the threads on this site, you see many patterns than can be brought together... but one, that is commonly seen, is the effect that "religion", has had on the "individual"... The effect of forcing the individual to become subservient to the master church and its needs. Just as people enjoy taking care of others, these same people need care as well... Religion has taught and expects their people to sacrifice their human needs, in order to receive a benefit after death.

Charity... seems religion needs to be more "charitable" in its doctrine, theory, philosophy/theology, and application to its "own" people, before attempting to market themselves as charitable people in society. We are transfer agents, in life, RH... and... as humans, we transfer what we hold, if we aren't given care/charity, self-worth, etc., then we are not able to pass that on... and religion has failed in this effort to recognize those needs doctrinally. Thus, charity can't be transferred by those who don't receive that support/care.

There was a thread a while back that suggested that religion eats its own... and this would be the case in the instance of "charity"...

There are many heroes in society, RH. Many just don't choose to expend an inordinate amount of time marketing their deeds - yet religion does, self-vanity. Religion creates more "takers", than "givers", by the very doctrine of salvation in which it is founded upon. Something for free... salvation. It markets on greed. I could write a book on this, or... perhaps, I have... nonetheless, seems like this discussion could go on for hours without end.

In the end, people are more important than religion, but that is not the religious message, and that is why religion is eventually spit out by many people.

If you care to delve into theology/philosophy, by all means, take an approach, I'm quite sure there are many who can accommodate you by providing a counter-point to any argument you make. After all, in the world of rhetoric, one need only change a few characters and include a little vagueness, and the discussion could go on for thousands of years.

The bible is like the Rorschach Ink Blot Test... A psychologist could open that book, and ask a client/Christian to tell you what they see, and the response is nothing more than a self-portrayal of personal (intrinsic/extrinsic) desire(s).

Therapy? When a Christian opens the book, and they see no desires, then they become enlightened, yet, they lose their Christianity. It does take a desire to be free from hell, thus the desire for salvation, and belief in Christ, in order to be Christian, no? Desire, not "charity", is the foundation of Christianity...

To keep to this thread... "Hell" doesn't exist, until someone can assign meaning to the word by material illustration, in an acceptably stable temporal venue. Thus, case closed.

webmdave said...

A rousing round of applause goes out to Dave8!

boomSLANG said...

Well said, D8....welcome back!

Anonymous said...

Thanks WM & BoomSLANG :-) It's great to commune here with you guys, have a great one. Dave8

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