Quit gambling with eternity!

I stumbled upon your website by divine accident and was amazed to see such a large forum of high stake gamblers at work, emailing and blogging and otherwise displaying their addiction to the greatest gamble of all - betting that God does not exist. It appears that most if not all of your subscribers look at other people and how they act and what they say in order to find God. Rather ridiculous wouldn't you say? Let God speak for himself. What have you got to lose? If He doesn't exist then nothing in your life will change. If He does exist then it will change drastically.

Just say "God if you are real, then come into my heart and change me, change my life, show me that your are real."

As we used to say on the playground......double dare ya.

Mark
Email:prov616@yahoo.com

77 comments:

TastyPaper said...

I'm more of a slots person. What an idiot! What a christian spammer! Hey Mark, I double dare ya to apply the same reasoning to your god that you use to disqualify all the other gods. I triple dare ya.

Anonymous said...

Mark,
You have to have Jacks or better to open here, and you didn’t even come in with a pair of deuces. You “stumbled” upon this website by divine accident? Looks like you hit flat on your face. And your god didn’t do a thing to stop you. Notice that? Do you really think we just haven’t done the “God if you are real, then come into my heart and change me, change my life, show me that your (sic) are real." prayer before? Did you read ANYTHING on this website before posting your pathetic little letter? The level of your maturity is evident in your playground double dare. What are you, about 10 years old?

Anonymous said...

Have you even read any of the testimonies of the EX-CHRISTIANS on this site? You equate years of questioning and soul-searching to a mere bet that god doesn't exist? Please go spout your garbage to your other brainwashed friends. We stopped buying that crap a long time ago.

Anonymous said...

--- Just say "God if you are real, then come into my heart and change me, change my life, show me that your are real." ---

What makes you think nobody here has done that? What gives you the right to assume that we didn't do that many, many times during our deconversions? "Ex-Christian" pretty much implies that most of us were Christians at some point. And the label of Christian usually goes along with prayer to God.

The prayer you listed is almost verbatim to the one I said over and over right down to the "if you are real". Know what? He never came in to my heart and chaged me. That tells me that He's not real.

Anad said...

Mark, been there, done that.
I was a Christian for nearly 39 years. I got tired of talking to myself. None of the other gods spoke up either.

There is no gamble when there is no game.
But you know that. That's why you try convince others, because you are really just trying to convince yourself.

Take care.

DG said...

Maybe I’ve missed something or don’t read here as often as I could but never once did I get the idea that X-Christian was the same as No G_d. One is saying I don’t like this MO for dealing with a deity and the other is saying there is no deity. How could anyone ever confuse them? Oh, that’s right. You must live in the USA and that is at least one basis for such an idiotic assumption. Philosophy has never been at the top of the list of favorite American playing fields. And there’s really nothing wrong with the ass one becomes by making assumptions but there is no cure for stupidity be it the right side or wrong side of asshood.

SpaceMonk said...

For it to be a 'gamble' assumes we can't know whether a god exists or not.
Well, when it comes to bible god, there is no gamble - I know he does not exist.

Anonymous said...

Mark said "I stumbled upon your website by divine accident..."

Something tells me this is joke, but I'll play along anyway. First, how can you distinguish between a "divine" accident and a garden-variety accident?

Mark: "...and was amazed to see such a large forum of high stake gamblers at work, emailing and blogging and otherwise displaying their addiction to the greatest gamble of all - betting that God does not exist."

You too are playing the exact same game, Mark. You are betting that the god you worship is the right one. If Allah turns out to be the one and only big guy in the sky, you will be boiled for eternity for your blasphemies against him. Why do you take such a gamble, Mark?

Mark: "It appears that most if not all of your subscribers look at other people and how they act and what they say in order to find God. Rather ridiculous wouldn't you say?"

Yes, that is completely ridiculous. It's also a straw man. Those of us who have rejected religion have done so by examining the evidence and thinking for ourselves rather than taking people's word for it. Each of us has a different story, but we agree on one point; the god of Christianity has no more chance of being real than Zeus. How Christians conduct themselves is another matter.

Mark: "Let God speak for himself. What have you got to lose?"

Good idea. But to level the playing field a little, let's open up the dialog to include all the purported man-god saviors, shall we? Let's also let Krishna, Mithra, Osiris, and Dionysus talk for themselves. What have you got to lose? That's fair, wouldn't you agree?

Mark: "If He doesn't exist then nothing in your life will change. If He does exist then it will change drastically."

Please elaborate. What do you expect will happen, and when? How sure are you?

Mark: "Just say 'God if you are real, then come into my heart and change me, change my life, show me that your are real.'"

Okay, I'll give it a try... (see below)

Mark: "As we used to say on the playground......double dare ya."

That's an amazingly apt metaphor, Mark.

For the sake of experiment, I will do exactly as you suggest, but on one condition; that you do the same with respect to Krishna. I'd like for you to say "Krishna, if you are real, then come into my heart and change me, change my life, show me that you are real." If you agree, then we can compare notes to see what, if anything, happens in each case. Do we have a deal?

Anonymous said...

Hey Mark: God doesn't want to come into their hearts. Got it. Never heard of Divine Election? It's morons like you that create the haters on this blog. Go hand out tracts in Iraq and hold onto your head.

jimearl said...

Mark, there is no such thing as a divine accident. No divine anything. But the good news is you have now been exposed to the truth about gods and such and have no need to gamble that you have selected the right one. If I were to pick a god, it would certainly be the Islamic one simply because of the virgin thingy. But picking gods is for losers, so I prefer to play it safe and go with reason and logic. Can't lose that way. Cheers,

webmdave said...

Jim,

If it's a joke, it's not my joke.

And, he left an email addy.

Anonymous said...

Nicely expressed, Anonymous. I suppose you can tell whose been "elected" by their genuine compassion for others.

freeman said...

Saturday morning just before I awoke, I was having a very vivid dream. (Dreaming, not real) I was having a discussion with jesus. I told him that if he was truely real and his sky daddy was the one and only, he would cure my wife of her back problems and her insomnia by Sunday morning. If he would do this, I would believe.

As all of us extians know, nothing fails like prayer. Well, jesus' time came and went and I still do not believe, my wife still cannot sleep and her back is the same. Thank god (pun intended) that she is seeking professional help and does not look to an invisible diety to assit her with her problems.

Anonymous said...

Thank you for your insightful and original post, Mark. As powerful as this site's testimonies are, it's morons like you who in the end drive the final nail into the coffin for many doubting Christians and drive them even further away from your opressive, hateful religion.

After reading a true and heartfelt testimony from someone whose experience I can relate to, then reading the recycled drivel so-called christians rattle off in the ensuing commentary, I can't help but think what a fool I was all over again for believing a shred of christianity.

Anonymous said...

call it gambling? you're the one hedging all your bets on a hand you not only can't see but "couldn't possibly understand".

We are not gambling, we're just not playing.

And FUCK dude, what kind of a bullcrap analogy is that anyway, a four year old could shoot holes through it!? We need to get more intelligent christians, this is getting too easy.

jimearl said...

Anonymous:

We need to get more intelligent christians, this is getting too easy.

I believe "intelligent christians" to be an oxymoron. Well, at any rate, morons. But they do supply us with an unending supply of laughs. Keep them coming, please.

The Liberal Pagan said...

i don't spend my spare time trolling in christian groups trying to "fix" them..it would be nice if the christians would return the favor.

Steven Bently said...

Mark

I suppose then all the other people that lived on other parts of this planet before the printing press was invented are destined straight for Hell according to you and your silly childhood fairytale beliefs.

You see Mark, since you're so wise and intelligent because you have (Bible Knowledge), but before 1492, there had never been a Bible or church on American soil, surprized??

The Native American Indians lived thousands of years and died without your phony Bible God and Jesus, it wasn't just the Indians either, the Aboriginines, Eskimos, Bolshevics, Canniabals, Amazon peoples, etc. millions of other peoples have lived a full productive life and died without a knowledge of your phony Bible God and Jesus.

The Bible was brought over here to America by Christopher Columbus, no one in the Americas and other parts of the world had ever heard of the Bible God and Jesus.

And now you think you have this unfounded wisdom, it's not true, you only have a brainwashed indoctrination, just like the other millions of self-righteous brainwashed christians.

There's no gamble, the only place a Bible God and Jesus exists, is a book assembled by who? MAN, many men!!! duh!!!!

Does your Nanny know you're on the computer???

Anonymous said...

As soon as I read Mark's first sentence, it was clear he didn't know what the "ex" in Ex-Christian meant, so I knew it would be some moronic shtick by some condenscending, ignorant fundy.

"Let God speak for himself."

You mean like he did here?

http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2006/10/24/cult-leader-gets-executed/

No thanks. I'd rather keep my atheistic morals and care about people than accept your Gawd's ideas of good.

Anonymous said...

Christians think that every aspect of their lives are being ruled by two invisible deities, either God or Satan, therefore everything in the eyes of a Christian is either black or white or cut and dried.

They believe that any knowlege outside of the Bible is from Satan and his angels and the Bible holds absolute wisdom and truth...LOL

Mark, you're really are ignorant dude!!!

Anonymous said...

Uhm, Mark...

We've already done the whole, "Jesus I accept you as my lord and personal savior...Come into my heart..." thing. Obviously it was all erroneous bull.

Hence the reason the website is called "EX-CHRISTIAN.NET"

Furthermore, Mark...Can you prove, 100%, beyond a shadow of a doubt that your god even exists?
I don't believe in Jesus whatsoever, so the burden of proof is on you. I'm not claiming to have any evidence of god existing or not...I just don't know.
But if you can prove then do so...

and Please, don't say, "Because the Bible says so..."

Been there, read that.

Chris said...

I was just like Mark as a christian. I was absolutely baffled as to why the entire world wasn't christian. After all, the "evidence" was overwhelming! Books like "Mere Christianity" and "More than a Carpenter" showed me that...

As condescending and insensitive as Mark seems, I think he's genuinely trying to be helpful. To him, as I used to believe, all non-christians were willfully rejecting what they knew deep-down to be true...the God existed and his name was Jesus Christ. I seriously believed this, as I'm sure Mark does and many of us used to as well.

Despite his sincere desire to be helpful and help "save" us "willful sinners", he has actually demonstrated--quite clearly--the fantastic ignorance that necessarily accompanies christian faith.

The idea that anyone on this site is "gambling with eternity" is so far beyond absurd that it is not even worth responding to.
But as an ex-christian, I'm so easily baited in by these douches.

Anonymous said...

Mark:

Did you forget to wear tin foil on your head, you loon?

Three words, Mark: Incrase your medication!

Anonymous said...

"What do you have to loose"?
That is the line that sucked me in. Here is a couple of answers that quickly popped into my head Mark
1) How about the wasted gasoline going to church every week.
2) Wear and tear on the car going to church.
3) Money you will give to the church over your lifetime for the pastors pension.(money you should be saving for your own retirement)
4) Logic and rational thinking.
5) Time wasted praying to your hands.
6)New scientific discoveries.
I'm sure others can add to this list.

Avie said...

I already did ask your God if he was real. Know what I heard? Nothing.

And don't give me that "feel it in your heart BS". Feelings can be fallible. Feelings can change. Here's an example: I felt head over heels in love with a man a few years ago. He told me he loved me and I felt in my heart that it was so! But he cheated on me, he lied to me, he broke his promises and I felt better off without a man in my life. My feelings had been wrong. It wasn't long after that another man came into my life. This man also said he loved me and I felt it to be so. However, this man looked at me as if I were the only woman in the world, never lied to me, kept every promise and I wondered how I could have lived without him. Guess which one I kept? The second one, of course! He showed me he loved me. And ultimately, actions speak louder than words...and feelings.

I want the same from your god! Action, not feelings. Not words. If your god is all you say he is, then he will appear next to me and tell me so in three seconds and I will instantly repent and follow him forever. One...two...three...huh. No one next to me. Oh, oh! I know, maybe he's hiding behind my chair, let me just turn around and...ah-ha! Weird. No one there. Guess it's still just me and my cat in this room. So I feel confident about concluding one of three following possibilities:

1) your god doesn't care
2) your god isn't powerful enough
3) your god doesn't exist

Take your pick.

georgespiggott said...

Mark Mark oh Mark. What I hear from your plea is FEAR: the fear you must live with, hoping and praying that you've got the right interpretation of your God's Holy Word so that you won't be cast into the lake of fire with the rest of us.
Let's face it, if He is unchanging, then his Old Testament behaviour shows Him to be a bit capricious, to say the least!

As to "what have you got to lose?" --- what about time, energy and sanity.

Trancelation said...

I don't know about you guys, but I laughed until I cried. I had to email this dude and thank him for the laughs. "Your are real." I mean, come on, does it get anymore 1337 than that? I'll be waiting for him to come back and post that he was joking, and that he does not believe.

Because anyone that DOES believe and posts childish junk like this is esceptionally insincere in claiming to not have doubt.

Anonymous said...

Was this post really using the fallacious Pascal's Wager?

Zeus is going to be pissed! Plus. Wouldn't God know you were 'faking' faith and acceptance? Best to be honest.

God to me: 'Why didnt you believe in me?'
Me to God: 'Not enough Evidence. Plus, there were errors in the book you gave us. I didnt think you were capable of them, so I rejected the book.'

Anonymous said...

I WISH GOD COULD SPEAK! IT DONT, SO STOP FOOLING YOURSELF,,GAVE MY HEART TO GOD FOR 30 YEARS..WASTED MY LIFE! ESPECIALLY THE FUNDAMENTAL KIND I USED TO BE!! READ THE PATHETIC BABBLE (BIBLE) THATS A GOOD PLACE TO START! ITS FUNNY ...I USED TO SOUND JUST LIKE YOU....CHRISTIANS ARE A VIRUS!

Roger O'Donnell said...

@Spacemonk

If the God of the Bible existed, he'd be a demon. Ask any Canaanite, Amonite , or Midanite for their take on who's the good guy ;)

Love

Grandpa Harley

Anonymous said...

Even if. EVEN IF indeed it were a gamble, a wager, if you will; it is the perogative of each one of us here to bet the way we want to.

Isn't that the way your God set it all up? Of course it is, free will and all that, right?

Every one of us here has exercised that free will and we are all quite comfortable with our "wagers."

You're wasting your time and ours here so go talk to the fence-sitters, Mark. We'll be waiting for the fallout ;)

Anonymous said...

You guys have pretty much covered it. But let me add one thought.

For a long time, I wondered if they might be a little right. Afterall, it cost nothing to say the words, etc. Right??

Then, while talking to a couple of people from ARO, it hit us. IF a persons God were so STUPID as to be fooled because someone went to church and prayed, when in their minds there was doubt, then just how great was that God???

"God is great, but I can fool him by pretending to believe. " Yep, a real smart God to me. And if there was some sort of being watching us but not interfering, then how stupid were the people to believe in such a stupid God.

Either way, a really bad choice.

Elder Norm

Anonymous said...

Mark,
What if it is you who is mistaken? If so,you have wasted your ONE life tithing, praying to, and worshipping a lie. Do some studying of Christian history, and while you're at it why don't you try reading some literature from the unbelieving side. I know, you are taught that this material is the work of Satan. I used to be a hardcore believer, and I know all the manipulative tricks played on believers in order to keep them afraid, and in line. Trust me, my friend, after all the unbiased research I have done on the subject of Christianity, I am quite confident that it is most likely you who are mistaken. You and I are both Atheists....I just go one god further than you do.

Anonymous said...

Listen up numbnut.

We are EXCHRISTIANS. Dig that. EXCHRISTIANS. We have been where you are now. If you had used your brain for just one second you wouldn't have posted your crappy cookie-cutter pseudo-argument.

Morontheist.

Anonymous said...

Mark, where are you? Mark? C'mon. Come out and play. Mark?

gobby said...

http://yourgodisimaginary.com/

Anonymous said...

--- Just say "God if you are real, then come into my heart and change me, change my life, show me that your are real." ---

Precious Mark, sweetie, I don't want to hurt your little spirit too much but there comes a time when we all have to grow up and become adults. I know it hurts, hun, to let go of those wonderful fairy tales that mommy would read to us each night, right before she pulled up our covers and kissed our foreheads goodnight. I know how much you want to believe in talking donkeys and magic staffs and beasts with seven heads and ladders to heaven. It's exciting, I know!

But it's not real, doll. It never was. Your god is a fable, a childs story. A falsehood; A fantasy. A hoax; A fabrication; An untruth; A myth; A lie. You've believed in a lie sweetie. Are you hearing me yet?

You're a big boy on the outside. Now it's time to mature a little on the inside. Oh, and Mark, it is with great sincerity in my heart and with great love that I tell you that when you die, if you continue on the path you're going, that you are definitely going nowhere. You see, your magical golden heaven doesn't exist either. However, if you turn from your childish ways you have the opportunity to create heaven here on earth. Life can be either heaven or hell, Mark. It's your choice. If you choose to stay in hell, well, you have only your own foolishness to blame.

*kiss* *kiss* Sleep well, little one!

Anonymous said...

Mark,
Since you think Pascal's Wager is reasonable, try this one out.

In southern Africa there is a belief that having sex with a virgin will cure a man of HIV/AIDS. There is absolutely no evidence this is true, but many young girls in Africa have been raped (and infected) by men with HIV because of belief it will cure these men.

"Oh", you say, "that belief is superstition and what these men are doing is immoral and horrible. It is not the same as believing in gawd to save your soul. Christian belief doesn't hurt anyone."

Really? Maybe we should ask the Native Americans, Polynesians, Aborigines, and multitude of other cultures that were subjected to Christianity and the Doctrine of Manifest Destiny. Many were slaughtered, enslaved and put in detention camps, all because they were not "believers". Well I guess we can't ask them. The vast majority were exterminated.

See, Christianity kills. It even kills its own. Ask the Irish.

muttmutt1978 said...

I dont think it was an accident, i think you came here looking for trouble. If i can trace your email you will be in worst trouble imaginable. Im a Pagan now and i definantly have no love for ANY christian, your presence is not welcome here.

Anonymous said...

I think Mark's mommy caught him, slapped his hand and sent him to his room, telling him not to play with the computer anymore.

Anonymous said...

muttmutt1978 doesn't speak for all of us here. Personally, I welcome comments from christians. They're usually great for comic relief - and for further reinforcing that we EX-christians all made the best decision of our lives when we abandoned that superstitious, simple-minded cult.

Anonymous said...

Christian,

Explian Luke 14:26, do you hate your parents, your bothers and sisters and yourself?

Ex Christian

Anonymous said...

Mark,

Your post is a regurgitation of Pascals wager which has been thourghly debunked. Take a look here:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

and here:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/#4

south2003 said...

Had god paid attention to his floor plan, he would have realized that the problems of this world would have grown beyond his ability to contain. Things didn’t have to be this way. At so many points in time, god could have acted differently, even in small ways, to alter the destiny of his creation. Yet at each critical time, at every single step, he failed! Again and again, he failed!

He could have wiped out of existence, changed that rebellious SOB to be good again and gave him new wings, or, at least imprisoned him in the 8x8 cell block C of Hell. This would have prevented him from “roaming to and fro” doing evil. How about this? Instead of leaving the first humans ignorant, unprotected and vulnerable, god could have easily made them so powerful and wise enough to recognize that SOB for what he was and rejected him on sight. Even better, punish the two humans and not cast the “curse of original sin” on the entire planet.

Here’s another suggestion. Rather than waste time setting up religion called Judaism, god could have taken human form and performed his sacrificial death and resurrection immediately after the fall of man. In this way he could have eliminated millennia of sin and strife as people futilely attempted to obey impossible laws like the thou shall or shall not(s)…wear wool with linen, eat shell fish, thou shall not seethe a kid in its mother's milk, Thou shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread…huh!

To be a more radically and cool, he could have came up with the brilliant idea (of course freethinkers thought of it) of a perfect world, free of temptations, free to roam. Instead he imprisoned us in these cages of flesh and bones and made us to suffer and feel hurt, made us sick, and made us to die. Why did he do this? Why did your god create beings as limited as us when the Almighty, the all Powerful could have created much more?

Can a rational person really accept this? Does it make sense that this was the crowing work of infinite good and wise being?

TO ADD INSULT TO INJURY, MARK THE FUNDIE wants us to talk to god and ask him into our hearts (Biology 101).

No thanks Mark god might clog my arteries and create another mess.

Steven Bently said...

You're right South, since a
God created Satan, he easily could have changed him back to the most beautiful angel in Heaven.

But he wanted people to BURN, to Burn in Hell so he could watch them Burn for eternity.

It's plainly all a crock of shit!!!

Anonymous said...

Dear Friend,
I just had to send a note to tell you how much I love you and care about you..Today you look so sad,so all alone. It makes my heart ache because I understand. MY friends let me down and hurt me too. But I love you. Oh,if you would only listen to me. If you only knew how much I want to help you. I want you to meet my Father. He wants to help you too. My Father is that way, you know. Just call me,ask me,talk with me. I have so much to share with you. But,I won't hassle you. I'll wait because I love you.

Your friend,
Jesus

Anonymous said...

Isn't it funny how all these Xtian fanatics always find websites like these "by accident?"

Anonymous said...

Wow, Jesus…hey buddy? Where ya been hiding the past 2000 years? Man, we have been looking everywhere for you. You know all of us are kinda ticked at you for ignoring the prayers you said we would accomplish in your name. Hard for you to believe, I know, but EVERY SINGLE TIME…nothing, nada, no prayer answered. Were you just pulling our leg? Was that one of your Holy pranks? And how come you keep mentioning “My Father”? Isn’t that you? Aren’t you just your father in the flesh? You sure aren’t instilling any confidence in us Jesus. For my part, I’ve called you, asked you to talk to me and to my heart, I dunno, 48 thousand times in the last 25 years. And you are always too busy doing….hell, who knows what? You never have answered. So please don’t bait me with that line again. You’re going to have to do a whole lot more than just make the same empty promise to help, meet with yourself, share and offer love that is JUST LIKE YOU…invisible and unfulfilling! (Psssst, while I’m distracting this phoney, somebody get a net and some rope.)

Shannon said...

From what I’ve seen, Jesus, as a friend, you suck ass. I have a co-worker who loves, loves, loves you. Oh, glory does she love you; even though, 18 years ago you watched as her foster brother assaulted her, violated her, molested her, raped her, and destroyed her innocence. I guess it’s important to test even the 12-year olds, eh?

You are an asshole.

Anonymous said...

Say this prayer!

Please God.
Turn me into something more evolved than just a smart version of a chimp. Please redo the human race without vestiges of lower class animals such as tails and canine teeth, and too much hair in some places, and not enough in others.

Please make me smart enough to live on this planet with others of my species without inventing some kind of superficial belief system that allows me to think that I am superior to others who don't adhere to it exactly and have their own peculiar beliefs.

Please make the human race wise enough to live with each other (San's bombs and wars), and not be willing to kill each other over things as silly as which version of which pagan belief we hold dear.

Please God while you are at it please find some way that we can experience the pleasure of intimacy with each other without the possibility of producing another version of ourselves each time, unless that offspring is absolutely assured love, enough to eat, happiness, and freedom from pain and suffering.

These things are just for starters God. I will be asking for others as you give me more strength and take away the dimness of my brain due to the aging process. as you promised when you said: "Ask and you will receive"
Thanks,
Dano

Anonymous said...

You know MAYBE there is a God... But it is NOT the God of the bible... too cruel and evil.
As for the heart thing, the heart just pumps blood... if anything the brain controls everything if you think about it... so 'Jesus come into my brain!'...
Seriously, did you know that technically, Jesus sacrifice is a human sacrifice? strictly forbidden by 'God'? And that a man cannot atone for the sins of others? And that if you take Jesus sacrifice literally, it has to then to meet the requirements of a sacrifice as found in the Old Testament which Jesus didn't meet therefore it was unnaceptable.
I could go on, but you get the picture. Wake up.

Anonymous said...

I'm 50 y/o. I waited 49 years for god to speak for himself. Last year I finally gave up. I don't believe he's there. If he is he ain't talking. Do a little more reading here Mark..I double dog dare ya.

RSM said...

>Anonymous said...

Dear Friend,
I just had to send a note to tell you how much I love you and care about you..Today you look so sad,so all alone. It makes my heart ache because I understand. MY friends let me down and hurt me too. But I love you. Oh,if you would only listen to me. If you only knew how much I want to help you. I want you to meet my Father. He wants to help you too. My Father is that way, you know. Just call me,ask me,talk with me. I have so much to share with you. But,I won't hassle you. I'll wait because I love you.

Your friend,
Jesus

10/25/2006 11:01 PM<

Hi Jesus! Just take a look at my open email to Mark. (It's in the Rants and Replies section of the forums. Title: When I Stopped Gambling With Eternity...open Email To Mark.)

When you read that email you will see that I agree with you completely. Life on this planet sometimes sucks. I know what you're talking about regarding friends and family turning against you. I read your story in the Bible and it has often inspired me to know I am not the one and only who has ever been treated this way. I know you're just a story-book figure or Galilee's "everyman" but I still like your story.

To Jesus' alibi:

Did you know that forging letters in someone else's name is illegal in most countries now-a-days? It used to be okay a couple thousand years ago but this is today.

Don't be another of those hit-and-run Christians who just pop in to blast their stuff then disappear. Stick around, read about our experiences, before you advise us. Fact of the matter is, I'm not at all sad or lonely. Thus your message is sort of beside the point.

Anonymous said...

The unmitigated gall of a Christian to write a letter, sogn with "Jesus" and then flat-out refuse to actually identify themselves. They are beneath my contempt.

As for Mark: The funny thing is, about a year ago, as an experiment I promised a Christian I would perform, for three days in a row I went down on my knees, cleared my mind of every consideration, and said out loud: "Jesus Christ, if you are real, please show me in ANY way."
I was sincere. I went to pains to open myself up for any possibility. I was anxious. What if?

Well... the woman (for it was a woman for whom I had entered into this experiment with) had said that I WOULD receive an answer. She was so utterly sure of this that she actually (I am not exaggerating) said that she would stop believing if it failed.

After a week, I e-mailed her the disappointing results. I am still waiting for any response from her. I hope she did not suffer a fatal heart-attack.

In any case... I DID what you ask us to do, before you actually asked it, and it did not do anything. I never got an answer. Of any kind. If Jesus exists, the very least that can be said is that he does not answer your request.

But there is another side to your "Pascal´s Wager" type dare.

What if you are wrong, and we are right? Then you waste your entire life living according to the rules and beliefs of people who have been dead since before the English language was created. Your freedom to be what you might have been, had you been free to decide for yourself, stolen by a lie.
What if you AND us are wrong? What if the Muslims are right? Then you are going to fry in Hell!
What if the Hindus are right?
Then you will fry in Hell and then be reborn as a dung beetle!
What if the Buddhists are right?
Then you will be reborn as a dung beetle right away!
What if the Asatru are right?
Then you will go to Nastrond, and you will be forced to fight in the armies of Loki!
What if the ancient Egyptians are right?
Then your soul will be devoured by Ammout!

The point is, you are taking an enormous risk by believing what you believe. Your beliefs could very well be more offensive to a god than the honest absence of belief of an atheist.

So be smart. Don´t risk it all for nothing. Do what we did.
Use your brain. It took long enough to evolve.

Anonymous said...

Divine accident, yeah right, ok, and how many weeks of this "divine accident" did you stumble before you finaly figured out the URL?

I have yet to find any high stakes gamblers on this forum, nor have I seen any evidence of any addiction among any of the regular posters.

Nobody here is"betting" that any god doesnt exist, Nor do any of the regulars show any sign of looking at other people , or what they say or how they act.... ...to find any gods.

Let which god speak for himself?
I have many things to loose, and no wish to loose them.
Pascals wager has been discredited.
didnt you get the memo?

Exactly how many times do I have to say it? Obviously the thousands of times I have already said it were not enough

Anonymous said...

*sigh*

Another fucking Pascal's Wager user...

Anonymous said...

Hey, Ol' Mark Bubba! Say, you might have better luck if you did what I did. Instead of asking Jesus into my heart, which was just fine without any additional stuffing, I asked Jesus into my colon! He helps my piles and eases my constipation. Oh, what a gentle savior! Divine Preparation-J.

Anonymous said...

It is amazing that such an insignificant species considers itself at the center of an infinite and vast universe. It cries up to the heavens for an answer but receives none. For such a life-form that even at its highest peak of so-called civilization can not even create an atom from scratch or even create the most trivial units of life but has been stealing off nature and patting itself on the back. But that is the sad state of the life-form that we know dub homo-sapiens.
How can such a low-level life form comprehend an nth-order (n is infinite)intelligence? It is roughly likened to a quark being aware of the existence of a universe. It is not possible. Homosapiens knowledge and intepretation of facts is flawed and the only other method for grasping transcendental concepts beyond your primordial and inchoate minds is by belief otherwise it would not be needed. Once you have transcended beyond your primitive ways, then your kind may be ready and the age of belief will give rise to true knowledge.

Anonymous said...

At the root of every human's thinking, there is a belief. Contemporary man believes that after the successful pursuit and attainment of material objects, that he/she will be appeased and his needs assuaged. The believer believes that a creator exists to be sought out. The atheist believes that there is no creator but neither can prove their case. However, rather than existing adversiarily as humans have always done, it would be much more fruitful for the atheists to engage in rigorous scientific research to discover exactly and absolutely how the life originated and successfully create a new universe with everything as it exists today and create themselves again to live forever. Then they would win the argument. Until then, the human intepretation of the science of life is still conjecture. Science has been used in your human history to classify and destroy each other, even up till today. The ones you term racists employed it, the eugenists, the nazis, etc. The same thing happened with your various religions. And for the proper definition of religion, it would be wise to remember that the very word is an abstraction and can be applied to any activity which is pursued with great vigour and dedication. If you invest yourself in the pursuit of money, money worship is your religion. If you sacrifice yourself for science, that is your religion. The problem is that humans are not consistent in their behaviour and are not honourable or logical. They only latch on to any system that profits them until they fall foul of it.
Your greatest advancements to date are in the construction of better tools to destroy more of your own kind. It seems that the more you create more luxuries for yourselves, the more disillusioned you become with your lives. In your most so-called first world nations, there is more suicide and self-destructive behaviour than in other areas of your world. You cannot coexist peacefully with yourselves. Yet you wish to venture out into the void to meet "intelligent life".
Collective intelligent life exists...but definitely not on this planet and they are extremely wise to avoid any contact with your kind. You are still too primitive and too dangerous, even to yourselves.

Anonymous said...

Artilect: "It is amazing that such an insignificant species considers itself at the center of an infinite and vast universe...."

Ah, you must be speaking of the religious among us. Only they have such a homo-centric view of the universe.

Artilect: "...How can such a low-level life form comprehend an nth-order (n is infinite)intelligence?...It is not possible."

You're saying we cannot comprehend god, right? Just checking.

Artilect: "...Homosapiens knowledge and intepretation of facts is flawed and the only other method for grasping transcendental concepts beyond your primordial and inchoate minds is by belief..."

Let me see if I follow. Since my reasoning is finite and flawed, my understanding is limited. To exceed those limitations, I need to simply "believe". For instance, I have no way of "knowing" whether there is some other "transcendent" reality inhabited by beings who can travel faster than light (say), or become invisible at will. Therefore, if I simply believe that it is true, I have thereby expanded my knowledge.

Did I get that right, or did I wander off track somewhere. Help me out here.

Artilect: "Once you have transcended beyond your primitive ways, then your kind may be ready and the age of belief will give rise to true knowledge."

I'm not sure which "kind" you are referring to (homo-sapiens? vegetarians? libertarians?), but your recipe for knowledge sounds really intriguing. All I need to do is close my eyes and imagine, then *poof*. Knowledge! That's way the heck easier than how I've been going about it. Cool.

Anonymous said...

To "Anonymous 10/26/2006 11:44 PM EST", who for some reason does not like to use the "Other" button when posting, I confess that I have very little idea what you are arguing for or against, but I thought I'd respond to a few of your comments anyway.

Anonymous: "...it would be much more fruitful for the atheists to engage in rigorous scientific research..."

That is the job of scientists, many of whom happen to be atheists. Are you suggesting that all atheists become scientists?

Anonymous: "...to discover exactly and absolutely how the life originated..."

Exactly and absolutely? I'm afraid those qualifiers are inappropriate when speaking of empirical evidence. As for attempting to discover plausible mechanisms for the origin of life, that continues to be an active area of research, and one that has made steady progress.

Anonymous: "...and successfully create a new universe with everything as it exists today..."

Okay... I think we need to start curtailing the recreational drugs a bit.

Anonymous: "...and create themselves again to live forever..."

Okey dokey. Moving right along...

Anonymous: "...Then they would win the argument."

"They" being atheists, right? Sounds like you've set the bar rather high there. I think I'll stick with the traditional approach and simply point out that theists have yet to provide a single scrap of credible evidence for their fantastic assertions. There, that was much easier than creating the whole universe, including myself. And just as effective too.

Anonymous said...

There must be a full moon tonight. Where are all these rhetorically-challenged folks coming from? And why do they end up HERE?!

Anonymous said...

Good on you Mark!
Why would anyone gamble with eternity? It is quite a gamble. You are right, everyone should ask that the Holy Spirit enters their hearts and leads them to salvation: an eternity also but one with promise, growth and reward. And you did not paste some long article from somewhere else to make your point.
Many people here say they are ex-Christians. It always puzzles me, having come to God, through His Son, and having been truly converted and been born again, why would you want to turn your back on it, knowing the consequences?
There are two books by Kent Philpott which are very helpful about true conversion and the falacies which presently abound: "Are you truly born again?" and "Are you being duped?". I would urge the regular contributers to this blog to read both.

Anonymous said...

Oh, dear sweet uncle Loki, another crop of proselytizing weeds. (goes to garden shed and fires up her flamethrower)

Steve: "Why would you want to turn your back on it, knowing the consequences?" Simple. As a thinking, loving person, I have no choice but to discard hell as a ridiculous, coercive myth that slanders any gods that may actually be out there. Anyone who "believes" solely to dodge eternal punishment is just covering their own sorry butt. I see neither love nor respect for the deity you pretend to worship, Pascal Boy.

Artilect: "How can such a low-level life form comprehend an nth-order (n is infinite) intelligence?" You mean the same "infinite" intelligence" that screwed up in Eden; had to drown everyone but the family of Atrahasis/Noah and made them build a frigging boat rather than just teleporting 'em all to safety; and played dress-up as its own son to save us from itself?? Ah, I see. This is some strange new definition of "infinite intelligence" that I wasn't previously aware of.

Finally, Anonymous mk. 37 1/2 (11:44 p.m.): You know, that's the sorriest Ramtha costume I've seen all week. No candy for you, dude. And, FYI, the "religion" we are discussing here is specifically the belief or non-belief in invisible supernatural beings. To be even more precise, the usual focus of our discussion is the middle Eastern deity to whom the Old and New Testaments are commonly attributed. Not money. Not science. Not politics. Not cupcakes, either. And you are mistaken: Logic and honour are found here on Earth.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for that Steve - you've confirmed something I've known for some time now. Your religion is one of fear and manipulation. I hope one day you too can escape from it like I did.

Anonymous said...

Astreja:

It is not a dodge. Nor does it have to conform to your ideas of fairness.

If there is a God, who is all knowing, all powerful and everywhere,who created you and everything else in the universe, what response could He legitimately have towards your attitude? Is such a God an absurd notion? It is no more absurd as saying no such being exists. It seems you may be being a little cavalier over this.

Rincewind:

I did not become a Christian through fear. I came a Christian through love: the love of God and His grace. I do not feel that I am manipulated. I believe that I have been introduced to the truth. A truth that frees. [John 8:32]

I feel that I am freer now as a born again Christian than I ever was before. Why would I want to escape from something so wonderful, so purposeful and rewarding.

Have you really escaped and, if so, from what? From my point of view it sounds as if you have accepted the constraints and the linitations of the world by rejecting a faith that transcends it.

In many aspects of Christianity there are paradoxes and you have hit upon one which Jesus mentioned. The man who thinks he has escaped (in your words) believes in his own power and destiny. He is self-reliant and in control. Life is for living. There is nothing beyond it. And yet, Jesus tells us, "The man who loves his life will lose it." [John 12:12]Think on it. In my experience conversion is liberating. What you jettison is dross. It counts for nothing. In return there is a peace, joy and certain purpose that I have never experienced before.

Hellbound Alleee said...

We've already done the math, and the author of the post apparantly can't do equations. He forgot to factor in the christian loss (they never do). As a matter of fact, the odds are on the atheist. Our loss is the same, regardless of the severity or colorfulness and creative cruelty (God is Love!) of the punishment: being Wrong. That's one of the problems with Christian Math. They might be able to count Offerings, but they can't do Probability.

webmdave said...

Steve said: Many people here say they are ex-Christians. It always puzzles me, having come to God, through His Son, and having been truly converted and been born again, why would you want to turn your back on it, knowing the consequences?

And he said: I did not become a Christian through fear... I do not feel that I am manipulated.

Ironic

Steve, what horrific sins have you committed that divine justice woulud demand an eternal life submitting to sadistically painful everlasting torture? Hmm?

Is torture really an apporpriate punishment for the crimes you've committed in your life?

Now, a couple thousand years ago and up through the 1500s torture was considered a reasonable way to treat those found guilty of various crimes. And if those judges had been able to prolong the life of those being tortured so as to lengthen the pain indefinitely, many undoubtedly would have done so. Fortunately our sense of justice has progressed beyond that thinking. Perhaps it's time for the Bronze Age god and the Iron Age Bible to be updated a bit. I mean, torturing people forever? That just doesn't add up with your understanding of a loving God.

Now, I know you'll try to justify it somehow in your head. But try as you might, you really can't. I know, because I tried to justify everlasting torture in my head for years. God isn't like us, I would say. He doesn't answer to our rules. God's ways are not our ways, I'd imagine.

Perhaps this so-called God and His ways are not our ways, but it would seem reasonable to expect that His ways would be a tad superior to our ways. Instead what we find is that we have a deity with a markedly inferior understanding of justice and reformation. We find a God who reflects the barbaric thinking of a less developed time in human history.

Anonymous said...

Steve,
Get this straight, I originaly was suckered into your cult by silly childrens storys when I was 6 years old.
But it was the horror storys that scared me into finaly becoming traped in your cult.
You clearly admit that it is FEAR OF PUNISHMENT that keeps you in the cult. Your words [b], "why would you want to turn your back on it, knowing the consequences? "[/b], FEAR OF CONSEQUENCES STEVE
yet you insist that being a slave of your fear makes you free. You obviously dont know reality from fantasy.

Anonymous said...

Steve: "If there is a God, who is all knowing, all powerful and everywhere, who created you and everything else in the universe, what response could He legitimately have towards your attitude?"

Well, for one thing it would comprehend my doubts perfectly and not trifle with bullshit religions like Christianity. I'm prepared to take the chance that any "supreme beings" out there are intelligent and compassionate enough to not need hell-like places or blind subservience from us "mere" mortals.

Your god is an absurdity to me. Your religion is vile and psychologically harmful. The sooner it's relegated to the dustbins of history, the better.

RSM said...

>Anonymous posted: 10/26/2006 :

Contemporary man believes that after the successful pursuit and attainment of material objects, that he/she will be appeased and his needs assuaged.<

No he/she doesn’t. You’re deceiving yourself. You want to feel good so you tell yourself you are better than us. That is what fundies normally do. Doesn’t make them right, though.

Steve posted: 10/27/2006 5:53 AM EST

“I feel that I am freer now as a born again Christian than I ever was before. Why would I want to escape from something so wonderful, so purposeful and rewarding.”

Let me substitute the word atheisy for “Christian.”

I feel that I am freer now as a born again atheist than I ever was before. Why would I want to escape from something so wonderful, so purposeful and rewarding.

Steve: “Have you really escaped and, if so, from what?”

Of course I have escaped. Religious confusion with its distorted and twisted feelings and inconsistent arguments. Just read a few posts in this thread and elsewhere. Like I said, I feel that I am freer now as a born again atheist than I ever was before. Why would I want to escape from something so wonderful, so purposeful and rewarding.

Steve: From my point of view it sounds as if you have accepted the constraints and the linitations of the world by rejecting a faith that transcends it.

That is another misconception of fundies. We have much faith. Without faith it is impossible to reject a hell-preaching religion.

Steve: “In many aspects of Christianity there are paradoxes and you have hit upon one which Jesus mentioned. The man who thinks he has escaped (in your words) believes in his own power and destiny. He is self-reliant and in control. Life is for living. There is nothing beyond it.”

You are twisting things, Steve. Perhaps you have to do this to make your own religion look superior. Doesn’t make you right, though.

Steve: “And yet, Jesus tells us, "The man who loves his life will lose it." [John 12:12]”

You are presuming stuff, Steve. I surrendered my life and found life, just like Jesus said. I loved life for forty years. But finally I realized that so long as I lived for the acceptance and approval of my fellow Christians, so long will I be miserable and unhappy. The same applies to God. So long as I lived for the peace God supposedly gives to his obedient children, so long was I miserable.

When I renounced “life” and committed myself to finding myself at any cost, that is when I had the new birth and found peace. And yes, it is liberating beyond belief. The thing you get wrong is that I do not consider myself to be in control. I am a very vulnerable creature on this planet. Without much faith—faith greater than is required to believe in God—I could not take this position.

Steve: “Think on it. In my experience conversion is liberating. What you jettison is dross. It counts for nothing. In return there is a peace, joy and certain purpose that I have never experienced before.”

That’s right, Steve. Conversion to atheism is the most liberating things humans can experience. It “brings peace, joy, and certain purpose that I have never experienced before.”

Think on it, Steve. “What you jettison is dross. It counts for nothing.”

I am not mocking you, Steve, I am speaking of my personal life experience. You can accept my testimony or reject it. You cannot change truth.

Anonymous said...

We are God's elect few let all the rest be damned. There is room enough in hell for you. We don't want heaven cramed.

Anonymous said...

Give Islam a chance. Allah loves you.

south2003 said...

"We are God's elect few let all the rest be damned. There is room enough in hell for you. We don't want heaven cramed."


Great! Best news of the day. By the way, I'll say hello to your grandma when I get there.

boomSLANG said...

We don't want heaven cramed.


No troubles......in thy colon of the Universe, there are many mansions.

Anonymous said...

I see your $10 and raise you $10. These guys miss that most of us were believers at some point and we got tired of the lies. I would say futher for myself I think there is some kind of higher power out there call it god if you like but here is the problem they think that if you do not believe their god then you just do not believe in "god" this of course is not true. I read somewhere a guy wrote and I can not remeber were I read it but it said bascially that if you believe in the christian god then you are also an atheist because you do not believe in any of the other gods put forward by the other religions of the world. That struck me as interesting anyway.

Anonymous said...

This is really, really terrible. You guys all need some serious help.

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