Hello~!

First of all, I'd like to give thanks to you for your trouble to run this site.

I'm a Korean woman who're very interested in the Christianity.

In Korea, we have 10 million of Christians, and some of them are very weird and lunatic.

They even demonstrated while the World Cup period, because our soccer supporters' name is "Red Devil".

I do hate them because they always threat about "hell".

Anyway...I have a question to the Christians.

Did all the people of Old Testament go to hell?

(None of them believed Jesus Christ as their Savior.)

Even Moses, Isayah, Solomon, king David, etc?

You guys say, only through Jesus Christ people can go to heaven.

And, before the Christ, the poor people have all gone to hell, right? (This is what I've heard from ministers.)

I think Christianity is a very funny religion.

(Or a Myth?)

It's a pleasure for me to read those people who have the same thought.

Have a good weekend~!

Jennifer Lee

38 comments:

Anonymous said...

Hello to you, from Dallas, Texas!

I live in the bible belt in the USA and if there's a hell, this is it.

Christians will conveniently overlook the fact that, according to their doctrine of salvation by grace, everybody who lived before Jesus is burning in eternal torment. The doctrine of hell is one of the most absurd things about christianity. Its amazing to me that christians can so easily overlook this. It's also absurd to me to think that two thirds of the modern world dies and goes to hell because they do not believe in something as ridiculous as christianity.

You say that you have 10 million christians in Korea. What is the total population there? I'm curious as to what percentage of the population is christian. In the USA, 80% of the country is christian! Here, in Dallas, that figure is even higher and there are perhaps millions of christian and catholic churches. There are two Buddhist temples, one Islamic mosque, one Jewish synagogue, and one temple of the Ba'hai faith. It's ridiculous. I'm surrounded by nonsensical christianity! I'm glad to have found this website also.

I've studied nine religions, and I'm something of a "wierdo" around here.

Anyway, it's great to hear from you. Good day!

Anonymous said...

One Christian theology states that after the Crucifixion, Jesus went to hell and released all the Old Testament saints who were stuck there. Good story, huh? :)

Anonymous said...

Christians disagree on Old Testament Characters. Catholics believe that they got a "get out of jail free" pass since Jesus hadn't come yet. Since they whole thing is a fairytale anyway, what does it really matter? Christains are filled with hatred of non-Christians.

Steven Bently said...

Hi Jennifer, Let me try to explain belief in the christian myth, in the USA.

We have been exposed to the Bible which was brought over here in 1492, by Christian European Pilgrims fleeing religious persecution and looking for free land.

The voyage of 3000 miles over open seas was very treacherous, many pilgrims got sea sick, many pilgrims died, there were no restrooms, no fresh water, not many provisions, the food was stale, many discomforts, no comfortable beds, many pilgrims were wishing that they could die, but they brought along their Christian Bible to comfort them and when they reached landfall they immediately gave thanks to their Bible God and set up an alter to pray and thank God for allowing them his grace for them to make the long voyage over here, where they could worship their imaginary God without religious persecution.

Now having made the long and stressful voyage and with many of their fellow pilgrims having died at sea, they presumed that it was the Bible Gods Holy Will that they survived the long and stressful trip, to spread God's Holy word to the inhabitants of the new found land.

Little did they know that America had already been discovered for many thousands of years previous, it had already been discovered by the Native Indians. This land belongs to the American Indian. America is rightfully the sole property of the American Indians, to this very day, we do not own this land, it was stolen away by force and by murder of the American Indians, this land was not given to the pilgrims as a gift, from the American Indians.

We now have a people that think that they are doing the will of the Christian God on property that was taken by force and murder in the name of God and Jesus.

This country was not founded on Christian principles, the Bible says "Thou shall not kill" but it did happen, many many Indian children and women and elderly Indian peoples were murdered by the spread of Christian pilgrims coming over in boats by the thousands, eventually in less than just 50 years, over 60 million Indians lay dead.

"The indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned alive. As "they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell."

go to:
http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm

it's horendous!

We now in this day of 2006, have people in power that believe that they are doing the will of the Christian God.

We have people in America today, that pretend that they talk to God on a regular basis.

We have people in American today that believe there exists a God that would condone the murder of people that do not believe as they do.

We have people living in America today that believe in demons, devils, angels, heaven, hell, spirits, ghosts, virgin births, invisible god and jesus, speaking in tongues, gifts of the spirit, holy ghosts, prayer, witches, souls, faith, miracles, superstitions, talking snakes, talking donkeys, talking bushes, etc.

These are the American Christians, the majority of them are adults, over 21 years old, but they are completely insane, but they refuse to see that they are insane because they have been scared and frightned beyond their ability to reason, for the fear of going to man's imaginary Hell.

Christians in America and elswhere I'm sure, have been intentionally scared and frightened by the threat of Hell by preachers all over the world, for them to hand over their money to them.

Christianity is a fear based religion with a threat of Hell invented by a man, to frighten and scare people to motivate them to give their money to the preachers.

Christianity serves no other purpose, it has no other purpose, because no other purpose exists.

Christianity is a cruel and mean and murderious religion.

We have Christian preachers in America that have been caught molesting little children girls and boys and preachers have been caught molesting adults too, we have preachers that have been caught embezzling moneys from the church, we have Christian preachers that have killed their wives, we have Christain preachers that have been caught in lies, and these are the ones that have been caught, there is many we never hear about.

Christianity is not of a god, it's man's invention.

All religions are man made, stay away from all religions.

Anonymous said...

I've met quite a few church pastors who seem quite positive when they tell people they are going to hell. My question is, how do they know? Those pastors are only humans, just like me and you, and we don't know who will go to hell, and even if there is a hell for that matter.

I think that giving some people a bible is like giving a baby a hand grenade to play with. They just don't know what to do with it - its kind of like a weapon of mass destruction in some people's hands.

As I look back over my religious experience, I realise that alot of those who were in leadership in churches had their own agendas, and they weren't really worried about anyone's 'salvation' but were more worried about how they looked. And as someone else on this site said a while ago, the church leaders are the one's with so much to lose if they can't sell religion. They would be out of a job, if all churches closed down. Whereas, I am one of the lucky ones - it doesn't worry me in the least now if I don't go near a church - since I had nothing to lose, and my sense of self wasn't dependent on being one of the principle players in the game.

Hell is such a big topic, and if people get frightened of going there, then the church leaders have this as a point of control to keep people dependent on the church.

Anonymous said...

Ben and others here have made their points so well. Yes, Christianity as with all other human generated religions show all the signs of the ignorance and myth-making of bygone eras.

Tonight I was searching through my email at yahoo.com there is a search function there similar to most search engines. I save many articles on my yahoo.com email so that I never lose them and tonight's search yielded something unrelated to the business topic I was looking up. Here it is, an article that confirms everything about the harmfulness of bringing religion into communities, politics, medicine and lives:

http://web.pitas.com/fullmoon/04_15_2002.html

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20020401/pollitt

God Changes Everything
Katha Pollitt



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Let's say there was a school system or a chain of
clinics on whose professional staff were a certain
number of men who molested the children in their care
and who, whenever this behavior came to the attention
of their superiors, were shifted to another school or
clinic, with parents and colleagues, not to mention
the justice system, kept in the dark whenever
possible. Imagine that this practice continued for
thirty years through a combination of out-of-court
settlements, sympathetic judges and politicians,
stonewalling lawyers, suppression of information,
fulminations against the media. Don't you think that
when the story finally broke, the men who had made and
implemented the policy would be held legally
responsible--for something? Certainly they would lose
their jobs.

Bring God into the picture, though, and everything
changes. The bishops who presided over the priestly
pedophilia in the Catholic Church's ever-expanding
scandal are not likely to follow Boston's Father
Geoghan, convicted and sentenced to nine to ten years
and facing more charges, into the dock, much less the
cellblock. After all, they are men of God. Thanks to
God, the Catholic Church can run a healthcare
system--10 percent of private hospitals in the United
States--that refuses to practice modern medicine where
women are concerned: not just no abortion but also no
birth control, no emergency contraception for rape
victims, no sterilization, no in vitro fertilization.
The church can agitate against the use of condoms to
prevent the spread of AIDS, even in desperate Africa,
a position as insane as South African President Thabo
Mbeki's stance against antiretroviral AIDS drugs, but
that generates a lot less outrage in the West. It can
lobby in Ireland against allowing suicidal women to
have abortions and intimidate a 14-year-old rape
victim in Mexico into carrying to term; it can
practice total sex discrimination, barring women from
the priesthood and therefore from sharing in the
political life of the church, and still demand to be
taken seriously when it speaks of human rights or
ethics--rather like the Philadelphia parochial school
recently reported as giving academic extra credit to
students who march in antiabortion-rights
demonstrations even as the church goes after public
funding through vouchers. No secular institution could
get away with any of this, any more than a secular
psychotherapist or family counselor could get away
with telling poor mad Andrea Yates what the Protestant
evangelist Michael Peter Woroniecki did: that Eve was
a witch whose sin required atonement in the form of
perfect motherhood and that working mothers are
"wicked."

Another example: Let's say a group of Americans decide
that they would like to live where they believe their
ancestors lived 2,000 years ago, even though other
people have been living there for centuries and don't
like the idea one bit. If these people were Cajuns who
wanted to park themselves in the Bois de Boulogne,
everyone would think they were out of their minds. If
they were American blacks taking over swatches of
Ghana, people--including many black people--would
laugh at their historical pretensions and militaristic
grandiosity. It would certainly be a relevant point
that these settlers are not displaced persons or
refugees--they have perfectly good homes already. But
once again, God changes everything: The former
Brooklynites, Philadelphians and Baltimoreans now
camping out in "Judea" and "Samaria" (the West Bank to
you) wave the Bible and the Israeli government
lavishes on them all sorts of privileges--cheaper
mortgages, income tax breaks, business development and
housing grants--with results that are disastrous for
Israel and Palestinians alike and that now threaten
the peace of the entire world. In a recent front-page
story, the New York Times treated the longing of
Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza to return to
their homes in Israel proper as a psychological
obstacle to their forging any kind of rational future,
individual or collective, and maybe it is-- maybe it
would be better for them to forget the old homestead
and demand reparations. But at least the old woman
mourning a sewing machine left behind when she fled
Beersheba fifty years ago really, personally owned
that sewing machine; the family picnicking year after
year in the ruins of its former property has living
memories of farming that plot of land. It is not a
notional "ancestral" possession supposedly guaranteed
in perpetuity by God. In this case, the religious
fanaticism is not coming from the Muslims.





Elsewhere, of course, it is. God has been particularly
busy in the Islamic world, building madrassahs,
issuing fatwas, bringing in Sharia with its bloody
stumps and beheadings and floggings and
stonings--seventeen people have been stoned to death
so far under the "progressive" Khatami regime in
Iran--and underwriting a wide variety of dictators and
monarchs and warlords. When gods start multiplying,
matters don't improve: Polytheistic Hindu zealots have
slaughtered 700 people, including many children, in
revenge for the torching by Muslims of a train
carrying Hindus from the site of the Ayodhya mosque,
destroyed by a Hindu mob in 1992 because it supposedly
occupied the site where the god-king Ram was
supposedly born. As I write, Hindu fanatics are
threatening to fight Muslims for a strand of beard
hair preserved in a Muslim shrine in Srinagar, which
they claim belongs not to Mohammed but to Hindu
religious leader Nimnath Baba. How many children will
be burned to death over the proper attribution of that
holy facial hair?

Think of all the ongoing conflicts involving religion:
India versus Pakistan, Russia versus Chechnya,
Protestants versus Catholics in Northern Ireland,
Muslim guerrillas in the Philippines, bloody clashes
between Christians and Muslims in Indonesia and
Nigeria, civil war in Sudan and Uganda and Sri Lanka,
in which last the Buddhist Sinhalese show a capacity
for inflicting harm on the admittedly ferocious Hindu
Tamils that doesn't get written up in Tricycle. It's
enough to make one nostalgic for the cold war--as if
the thin film of twentieth-century political ideology
has been stripped away like the ozone layer to reveal
a world reverting to seventeenth-century-style
religious warfare, fought with twenty-first-century
weapons. God changes everything.


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Anonymous said...

Wow...thank you for all who commented to my article. :)I'm very much impressed by your sincere answers.

We have 50 million people in South Korea only. And, the Christians are 10 million among us. (20%)

I'm so glad that we have "Buddhism" here. The Buddhists are 12 million. Lots of foreign people thesedays come here to study Buddhism.

And, among the atheists, the anti-Christian emotion is so prevailed. Some people made their own anti sites. Actually, I'm one of the members of those sites, someone told me to visit here. :)
(http://gigabon.com/bbs/board.php?bo_table=b012)

They translate some articles here and put on their board. They have this "ex-Christian.net" menu. And, the members also want to put their articles on here. So, I just did kinda test if I can put an article here. And, now...I feel really good.

Thanks for your troubles to answer my Q, and hope you guys keep peace and happiness in mind by your own way. Thanks again. I'll see ya soon~! (Cause I'm the responsible person who has to translate Korean into English.)

Anonymous said...

Here in America, not only does Christianity play a large role in our culture, it is over running our Government. Stats are unreliable, but most show that 40-60% of congress and supreme court judges believe in end-times. Many of them believe they play a role in making this happen.

We are loosing social service to what we call here "Faith Based initiatives" where the Government gives our tax money to churches to do services. This money, laundered through a vast network of "foundations". The Joshua Organization gets faith based money for teaching you children to be foot soldiers for the religious right. 7 % of interns in congress our from this program. They are at campaigns passing out pamphlets showing the world is 6,000 years old before they can vote. There is a good argument being made that the rise of Christian Nationalism in the U.S is becoming much stronger and may be one of the biggest issues we face in the near future. Anti Abortion laws were just passed in South Dakota and Louisiana. Were going backwards. The Godless are welcomed less and less in our society.
Tim Rumford
www.PriestsGoneWild.com

Anonymous said...

Maybe we really are facing a new dark age. It´s a good thing there´s something like a global society - pockets of civilization will survive, or maybe even the whole of Europe and Asia.

Unfortunately, if the USA collapses, there´s gonna be a lot of Chernobyls to deal with in a couple of years.

Anonymous said...

There are a bunch of way that the human race could be wiped out, from super volcanos to asteroid hits to global warming, pandemics, comets, weapons of mass destruction, solar flares, radiation from supernovas, etc., in fact it is inevitable that one of the s events will take place. It is not, if, it will happen, only when.

Guess which one of these events God will intervene into and keep from happening.

None, (0), because (IT) is the one that set the universe into motion, and the extinction of the human race will be a non event as far as the universe is concerned, as it expands or contracts through time.

Dan (We don't have time to waste with believing mythological concepts like Christianity, or any of the myriad of others that man has made up, life is to short, and our time here is limited)

Anonymous said...

I had a chance to see the Rev. Paul y. Cho in 1983 in Dallas Tx,..man!,...that is one hell of a con-man. This guy has the biggest church in the world!

I'm sure he's responsible for the millions of fundamentalist misled
masses there.

Moonpearl is right,...fundies teach that Jesus descended into hell and led those in captivity free,..I wonder if that included Judas and all the millions Jehovah had slaughered over 4,000 years!(including pregnant women and children)

Anonymous said...

Dear freedy,

Rev.Cho is a troublemaker. There's a public rumor that whenever he stays at luxury hotels, he has time with call girls.

You don't want to believe this? He got syphilis once, and got the treatment at the hospital. (You know, the doctors and nurses have a big mouth...)But, unfortunately, he infected his pox to his wife, Mrs. Cho.

This rumor must be 'true', because many anti-Christians are joking with his case. (How funny it is...haha:))

NEways...I feel sorry I didn't know I have to introduce myself like others do. Next time, I'll introduce how old I am, when I joined or left, etc with some statistics about the corruptions of Korean Christianity.

Bye, dudes~! :)

Anonymous said...

You would'nt believe his hyped up testamomy,....His son was poisoned and was dead for six hours.After 6 fervent hours of desperate prayer his son was ressurrected,He claimed to be walking with Jesus in heaven when Rev. Cho's voice pull him back down to the viilage he lived in!
This "miracle"is what thrusted him to cult like status,...he now boast millions of followers in S.Korea thru his mega church and thosands of small "cho" churches!

This guy is nothing but a con man who is praised by most all the charismatic type leaders in the world.
(Welcome to ex-christian.net from Fort Worth,Texas)

Anonymous said...

Of course, I don't believe that 'story'. I've been to his "full gaspel church" before, and I know lots of foreingers of that church. It's his favorite story when he wants to heal someone, but many pple say there's no use when he pray and order to Satans to leave the patient's body.


As you guys know, he is a "legend" in the Christian world. Some foreign ministers visit his church to learn his "managing & marketing skills". He has hundreds of branch churches in the world, and also have a big daily newspapers, and this is runned by his son. (maybe the resurrected one...:))

His main church's annual budget is 700 billion won. (700 billion US$) But, he continually expand his businesses. I don't know why he need so much money as a minister. He's the one who made the Korean churches be more greedy. :(

Anonymous said...

Ooops! Not 700 billion US$, 700 million US$.

And, he has several newspapers, not one. Sorry~!

Anonymous said...

Sorry...it's 700 million US$, not 700 billion US$.

And, he has several newspapers, not only one...

Anonymous said...

I would like to respond to this statement...

Christains are filled with hatred of non-Christians.


I just wanted to add that i am a Christian. I'm not filled with hatred toward non-Christians to start out with. I think much of that kind of thinking (that Christians hate non-Christians)is rooted in the fact that many "Christians" past and present take on the title (Christian), and still reject the true teachings of Christ. They are not true followers of Christ. For instance, the Pope is a political figure and has been since the invention of that position. It is not a Biblical position...in fact, there is no mention of a figure like that at all in the Bible. Christ is the head of the church (Ephesians 5:23, "Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior." to show one proof text) The pope and characters within so-called Christianity like him are powerhungry politicians who will do what it takes to be promoted.

Please don't lump true, Biblical Christianity in with those who reject Christ's teaching.

Also, to the writer of the origional post...I find it very interesting that you claim to be very intrigued and curious about the Christian faith, yet the place you go to find out about it is an EX-christian website. i don't mean to be rude, but i think even the most ardent and anti-christian individuals here would recommend that you at least talk to a Christian and an unbeliever for resources and conversation to give yourself a fair shot at Truth. If you would be interested in e-mail correspondence or even just over the blog here, I would be very willing to talk. I'm sure there is someone on the site here who would be willing to talk from the unbelieving side as well.

My goal is NOT to brainwash you. I would like to clearly represent the Christian worldview and show that it is a logical position and show it's validity, NOT make you believe it. I believe that it is a valid position and that most questions can be answered when you stop looking at the evidences through tainted "glasses" which I believe both sides are guilty of!

My goal is serious conversation, not just a "blind faith" that so many Christians are eager to lead everyone to! Faith and reason work together. In fact i believe that if you turn from either, you begin to step into error...even as a Christian.

I'm sorry I babbled so long, but I wanted to give you an opportunity to share in conversation with a believer and i highly respect those on this site that confess how they feel. I admit that I strongly disagree with your position, but i'm glad that some of you are open to talking.

For those of you that hate Believers...I would encourage you to talk to them. maybe all of them are not hate-worthy. They may be mis-informed, ignorant, or maybe they claim to be Christians and just don't get that it's only a title to them. They were born in America and they think that makes them a Christian (which I hope all of us would agree that even the Bible does not say anything about ethnic origin as the basis for Biblical Salvation).

Anyway, even if you don't want it, I will pray for you. I hope that this shows that i care! I'm not throwing it in your face. If you believed that those who reject Christ would spend eternity in Hell wouldn't you pray for them too???

Hatred is not the answer...can most of us agree on that point?

PS: The Jews looked forward to a Coming Messiah.(in fact, many reject Christ as their messiah and are still awaiting the real messiah...) The sacrificial system that they followed represented their faith in this coming messiah. they realized that without a Sacrifice, there would be no remission of sins, BUT they were looking for a messiah to rid them of Rome. Jesus is the Messiah, but his kingdom is Spiritual in nature. When Jesus Christ died, His death was effectual to all those that believe in Him...hence, the Jewish (Old Testament people)people that believed in this coming messiah were saved. Their faith in the coming Christ saved them from Hell. Therefore, the statement that Christ makes "I am the Way, The Truth and The Life. No man comes unto the Father except by me" is true! The Jews and Gentile believers of the Old Testament did come to the Father by Him, the Coming Messiah, Jesus Christ.

I understand that there is more conversation that could come from this statement, but for the sake of time i'll stop there. i just wanted to show that there are answers to these statements aimed to make Christians look like they don't THINK. Some of us do THINK, unfortunately many do not. We don't claim to be perfect. Especially me. My plea is for a fair hearing, not for acceptance. I HATE the idea of forcing someone to believe, but I love the idea of intelligent conversation aimed at helping people understand eachother better.

"Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you" (Luke 6:27-28).

Anonymous said...

Hey Aaron,..are you related to Steve Camp?Any-hoo,..."Love thy enemies,...Blah,blah,Blah,..etc,etc.,....I don't hate christians But I do hate what they do,say and believe! You know it's like "hate the sin,..not the sinner"

Most of us were just like you,..so we know how f--ked up you are.We would never suggest someone like Jennifer Lee go anywhere near you for advice,...WAKE UP MAN!(sell your crap somewhere else.)

Anonymous said...

i realize that, but why? You don't want to brainwash her either do you??? You would want her to have a "fair" shot too at Truth. I don't know. I understand to a degree why you wouldn't want her to talk to me either...I wouldn't send somebody to you for advice cuz I disagree with you, but I'd be more than willing to suggest the person opens themselves up to truth and not to what you or I say.

She has jsut as much of a right to here viewpoints from both sides as you and i have had.

Also, I'm not trying to sell anything:) I just like talking about this stuff. if I could sell discussions i would though, school bills are crazy expensive these days. Anyway, thanks for your opinion...and for your honesty...Oh thanks for not hating Christians too...it is like that hate the sin not the sinner thing.

Maybe you're closer to real biblical teaching than you think (not saying you agree completely of course) if you are concerned with love and truth, rather than most modern "christianity" concerned with being American and having a lot of money...

Anywho, take care!

Anonymous said...

oh, sorry, not related to Steve Camp as far as i know! I'm a little more down to earth than a lot of the contemporary christian types i think. I don't really like that stuff as much. I know who he is though.

By the way...good usage of "Anywho"...ever since I saw those aliens on the Simpson's say it, it has stuck! i can't go 5 minutes without throwing it in there...sad really:)

Anonymous said...

aaron camp said,

When Jesus Christ died, His death was effectual to all those that believe in Him...hence, the Jewish (Old Testament people)people that believed in this coming messiah were saved. Their faith in the coming Christ saved them from Hell. Therefore, the statement that Christ makes "I am the Way, The Truth and The Life. No man comes unto the Father except by me" is true! The Jews and Gentile believers of the Old Testament did come to the Father by Him, the Coming Messiah, Jesus Christ.

Somehow you're purporting this as pure fact. How do you know the above statement made by you is true?

Do you somehow possess first hand knowledge that this is true? Is it true because of your longing and you intend it to be true?

By the way, the majority of Jewish people (of the OT) that lived before christ were already dead before christ arrived, but yet you insist that you have some form of first hand knowledge that the Jewish people were saved from hell...lol

Isaiah 45:21 says I the Lord, and there is no God else beside me.

Yet the majority of living Jewish people reject Jesus as the messiah, even though Jesus was a bonified Jew himself, and many many living Jews witnessed Jesus's death, are Jewish people this blind not to recognize the prophesized saviour and to have witnessed his death and yet are still somehow stupid enough not to recognize a man sent by god to save them, that rose from the dead?

Fundy answer! God has hardened Jews hearts, although Jesus was a bonified Jew himself, with a blood line of David, and Mary inseminated by an an angel sent by god.

How did Jesus get a bloodline of David through Mary whom was not of any kin to Joseph?

Crawl out of this one aaron!

Anonymous said...

"Their faith in the coming Christ saved them from Hell."

Romans 8:29-30 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

All are predestined. Faith, is useless.

Anonymous said...

"I am the Way, The Truth and The Life. No man comes unto the Father except by me" is true!"

John 10:30-31 I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him."

Is Jesus God?

John 14:28 "My Father is greater than I."

Anonymous said...

"Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you" (Luke 6:27-28)."

Luke 14:26 "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Anonymous said...

"I HATE the idea of forcing someone to believe, but I love the idea of intelligent conversation aimed at helping people understand eachother better."

Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

Anonymous said...

"hence, the Jewish (Old Testament people)people that believed in this coming messiah were saved. Their faith in the coming Christ saved them from Hell."

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/06-Jewish-Thought/section-9.html

"However, for Jews, gehenna--while certainly a a terribly unpleasant place--is not hell. The majority of rabbinic thought maintains that people are not tortured in hell forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be 12 months."

Anonymous said...

Ted,

"Somehow you're purporting this as pure fact. How do you know the above statement made by you is true?"

i must've addressed this on another post, but I'll quickly explain...I've said it before I'm explaining what the Bible teaches about this issue, not purporting it as pure fact. I've explained that my goal is not to give an all out conclusive evidence for what the Bible says, but show that it is a reasonable position...the way that this is done is by showing that the Bible does address the origional question that was asked...how were OT Saints saved? By Faith. So, that's what the Bible says. I'm not telling you that I was there first hand and i saw that happen, I'm telling you that it is what I believe and it makes sense.

Once again, you don't possess first hand knowledge either...so you don't know that it didn't happen. Your faith, or lack thereof, says it didn't. My faith says it did.

"that lived before christ were already dead before christ arrived, but yet you insist that you have some form of first hand knowledge that the Jewish people were saved from hell...lol"

no i never did claim or insist first hand knowledge. i claimed that this is what I believe based on Scripture.

Whoever posted anonymously...
Quoting random Scripture and jotting a note underneath is not a good way to argue. It's probably better to explain the passage (or your interpretation of it) so we can get what you're saying. I don't have time to go through each one of those trying to figure out what you mean by them...honestly...not trying to to be a jerk about it:)

One puzzling thing about the portion of that article you put on here...

"However, for Jews, gehenna--while certainly a a terribly unpleasant place--is not hell. The majority of rabbinic thought maintains that people are not tortured in hell forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be 12 months."

Who cares what majority of rabbinical thought was??? When does majority make it right or even what the Bible teaches? Anyway, that a whole other topic. Just wondering where that came from I guess.

Take care, I'll check back soon.

Anonymous said...

Aaron Camp, you say that the OT saints were saved by faith, and you say that the bible tells us this. Where exactly does the bible say this? Furthermore, you are saying that, essentially, some were saved by faith before Jesus, the rest are burning in hell! Ridiculous.

The christian hell is one of the many reasons why I don't believe in christianity. In order for the doctrine of "salvation by grace alone," which the christian church is built upon, to work, there must be an eternal place for "non-believers," therefore, they will spend eternity in hell. This is ludicrous. I hope you see that. Absolutely ludicrous. For christians to have their eternal reward, there must be an eternal reward for non-christians.

You said on 06/28 at 5:55 pm, "I believe that it [the christian worldview] is a valid position and that most questions can be answered when you stop looking at the evidences and through tainted 'glasses' which I believe both sides are guilty of."

You believe that most questions can be answered, how about this one?

1.) If a christian is "saved" by the death on the cross, then why did Christ say, in the book of Matthew, "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in?" (Matt. 23:13.)

This, again, Christ said before the death on the cross, which is necessary for the christian salvation to work, as you should know. From this passage, it appears as though Christ is admitting to some way into heaven that the scribes and Pharisees not only have knowledge of, but also have the power to "shut up" against men! In the final line of said passage, Christ appears to reveal that said "way" into heaven is in the present moment by saying in the present tense, "for ye neither go in," disregarding the afterlife altogether! Remember, Jesus himself said this, long before the crufixion.

When you're finished with that one, I've quite a few more for you to explain.

Anonymous said...

to Arron Camp,

Jesus is quoted as saying ""I am the Way, The Truth and The Life. No man comes unto the Father except by me."

The Jews that lived and died before JC, had no knowledge of his existance, yet you say the Jews had faith in him, how is this possible? Yet you insist you believe it's true!

When Isaiah says that I am the only god and there is no other, this is why the Jews never accepted Jesus as a messiah, yet you boldly say that they had faith in Jesus.

Sorry dude, you're really confused!

And if there were Jews present at Jesus's cruscifixion, there is not one Jewish account in the NT, why not? But yet they had faith in Jesus...lol

Get real Arron!

Anonymous said...

Here's another one for you, Aaron. In first John chapter 2:2, John the apostle, who also wrote the gospel of John, is quoted as having said, "And he (Christ) is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

Dictionary.com defines "propitiation" as a sacrifice to a God.

This passage clearly tells us that the death on the cross "saved" the entire world! Apparently, it's not necessary to "accept Jesus!" We're ALL "saved!" Hallelujah! Wahoo! Party on, man. Everybody's going to heaven when they die! Now, how the hell does this correlate with the doctrine of "salvation by grace alone," where, again, only christians are going to heaven and the rest of us will burn forever? How would one correlate first John 2:2 with the final judgement scenario in revelations where some among us are "cast into the lake of fire, which burneth and tormenteth forever?"

Most of us here have read the bible thoroughly enough to decide that christianity is just not believable to us. I've found many, many, passages, such as those I've mentioned above and in my prior post, which led me to disbelieve in christianity. If you want to believe in it, go ahead! We here just don't believe in christianity and that's all there is to it.

Anonymous said...

One more question. Why doesn't the christian church ever even MENTION said passages? In my ten years as a christian, I found that the church largely ignores the bible, favoring those passages which appear to support their doctrine of salvation by grace alone. It seemed to me that the church ignored about 70 or 80 percent of the bible! Christians are the same way. They don't read the bible much, I suppose, and when they do, they must simply ignore passages such as those I've mentioned. I couldn't ignore them any more, Aaron. I just couldn't fool myself into believing in christianity any longer. I've left the church, and I won't be going back.

Here's another question for you, Aaron. Are we, as ex-christians, "saved" or not? We once "accepted Jesus, since we were once christians, then decided we couldn't believe in christianity. Technically, we should be "saved," yet, Paul said that if a person "leaves the fold," he or she cannot return. Either we are "saved," or we can never be! Which is it? Either way, you're wasting your time trying to "save" us, which shows that you are not really serving your "true purpose" by posting here.

One more question. Why can't you christians agree on whether or not we here are "saved?" We get different answers from the christians who visit.

Christianity is nonsense.

Anonymous said...

Aaron, something that life has taught me, I will now pass on to you.

If something LOOKS like horseshit, and SMELLS like horseshit, IT'S HORSESHIT!

Anonymous said...

Oh, yeah. it's not even necessary to "accept Jesus!" One may instead confess with ones mouth that Christ is lord and believe that God hath raised him from the dead and one will be "saved," according to the bible!

I could go on and on...

Anonymous said...

Aaron Camp said, "hence, the Jewish (Old Testament people)people that believed in this coming messiah were saved. Their faith in the coming Christ saved them from Hell."

Why would the Jewish (Old Testament people), need to be "saved", if they didn't believe in "hell".

And, again, here is the link, if you need to learn how to read, then, there are classes available.

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/06-Jewish-Thought/section-9.html

"However, for Jews, gehenna--while certainly a a terribly unpleasant place--is not hell. The majority of rabbinic thought maintains that people are not tortured in hell forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be 12 months."

"Who cares what majority of rabbinical thought was??? When does majority make it right or even what the Bible teaches? Anyway, that a whole other topic. Just wondering where that came from I guess."

Obviously, you do, by making the statement that the Jews actually needed saving. Again, the Jews didn't need saving, they believed in Gehenna, which is "not" hell, by a far stretch. So, why would "faith" in a savior be required by the Jews, in order to be saved, if "they" didn't have anything to be saved from? They had no need of a Jesus to save them from hell.

The Jews were looking for a messiah, to bring them into power in their New Kingdom on earth, they were never to leave, and go to heaven, they were to inherit their new kingdom on earth.

"Quoting random Scripture and jotting a note underneath is not a good way to argue. It's probably better to explain the passage (or your interpretation of it) so we can get what you're saying. I don't have time to go through each one of those trying to figure out what you mean by them...honestly...not trying to to be a jerk about it:)"

Its okay, I realize after reading your post, that you have no idea about your own religion, and after stating that you require someone to interpret your own bible for you, I suspect that you need some personal study time.

Do you find it odd that you make statements about the bible, yet, you know less than the people you are talking to? If you want to make a statement about your religion, give the scripture and reference, and we'll talk, at least then, I'll know you are actually reading the bible, instead of making highly opinionated statements.

Anonymous said...

slingshot wrote: "If something LOOKS like horseshit, and SMELLS like horseshit, IT'S HORSESHIT!"

Words of wisdom :-) Well, some people seem to wipe their shoes over and over, and pretend they're not stepping in it ;-)

Anonymous said...

hehehe...

Anonymous said...

I am a semi-Buddhist who hangs around these message boards a lot. I've seen what Korean Christians do to Buddhists and Buddhist ceremonies, celebrations, temples, monasteries, etc. in the name of their God. They even lie about Buddhism - some Christian ministers going so far as to claim that they were previously Buddhist monks and fabricating stories about the "sinful" lives they lead! Of course none of them ever were Buddhists. They just want to convert the people, make more money.

I've also read that the fastest-growing religion in Korea are Buddhism, and the biggest (or second-biggest; can't remember) group is EX-Christians. I have always found that Eastern religions, philosophies, and ways of live made more sense than Western ways, and I guess that good old Asian sensibility finally got the better of many Korean Christians' faith.

Anonymous said...

I think I'll move to Korea...

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