I'm a pastor in Indiana

I just came across your site for the first time. Interesting. But just between you and me (I'd hate to disillusion your readers) it's not christianity you are ex-ing, it's religion. The Christianity you are debunking is as far as I can tell man-made and man-altered. The message of God through Jesus Christ said nothing of retributin for AIDS, hating homosexuals, or even the right to be an atheist. God says love your neighbor as yourself; can't love me then you don't love yourself, and if you don't love yourself you don't love God.

Loving the unloveable; that's what self-made Chrsitians can't do because that brings them down to the level of--EVERYONE!!!

By the way, I'm a pastor in Indiana, and I too am a little discouraged with "Man's Christianity"; I serve a living God not a set of man-made rules and opinions. My brother told his friend about my church: "It's not your momma's church of God!" Keep on keepin' on--raise up the name of the Lord!!!

Denny Gibbons
denny at occog dot com

158 comments:

Anonymous said...

You still don't get it. WHAT God? What evidence do you have for the existance of ANY god, much less yours.

You have the buy-bull wrong too. Your "jesus christ" said that the "old testament" - the Hebrew scripture - remained in effect. This makes sense, since jc was simply a reforming rabbi, preaching some form of judyism (can't help the pun...), not starting a new religion. (That came later...)

And Leviticus most definitely is against all sorts of things, including homosexuality.

So get your head straight and actually READ the nonsense you purport to support. We all have... and probably know it better than you seem to.

jimearl said...

Pastor, ALL religions are man made and man altered. I suspect you already know that so I'm wasting my time. Cheers,

Anonymous said...

Pastor,

I understand your good intentions. My heart goes out to you because you are trying so hard to make Christianity work.

But Christianity doesn't work.

What drove me out of it was, among many other things, that I met plenty of loving, compassionate people who weren't Christians. The more atheistic they were the more unconditionally and unselfishly they were able to love me.

In Christian churches, all I received was judgement, even though I was, perhaps, a much better and committed Christian than they were. I know for sure I have read the bible more times than most Christians I know, and I have spent more hours praying than most as well.

So, we don’t need God to be loving, pastor. We just have to listen to ourselves and be logical.

Good luck to you, pastor,

Lorena

Anonymous said...

Last time I checked, Christianity IS a religion.

It's like the faithful have been programmed so that any time their religion is attacked, their response is: "What you are talking about is 'Religion', not Christianity. TRUE Christianity is a relationship, not a religion."

Christianity IS a religion. Get over it!

It's like if someone attacks your position, you just change the definition of what you are so that their attack no longer applies to you. "You see, it's not CHRISTIANITY you're attacking - it's RELIGION. Now we can all go back to being happy again."

Anonymous said...

Rev. Denny thats fine if want to believe in a god, we just do not believe that a god talks to people, like little voices and a god that directs people to worship him. What kind of god would want worship in the first place? A man's weak god would, like the kind you find in the bible. I'd say pretty much everyone here that posts on a regular basis has mostly rejected the bible god as being false. There are christians and preachers that come on here and say they have spoke to god. How can this be, when the bible has been translated over 1600 times, when did this god learn to speak the English language? If the bible is the absolute word of god and it had to be translated over 1600 times, how can it be the absolute word of god? We've decided that there cannot exist a god such as the one in the bible to be as dumb and stupid as the one depicted in the bible, if you wan to believe in what a man wrote down on tablets from his current prospective 2000 years ago, that's your perogative, and we wish you well, but we have examined the teachings and the hypocrisy of all religions and have decided it was all false.

You really need to read much further on this website before you make any decisions on whether you want to cast us off into the make believe Hell.

Listen Rev. Denny, we were all raised in here in America and everyone of us, you included have been exposed to some form of religion, Why? Why? Because the bible and religion was brought over here on a ship, Jesus and God never walked over here on their own, God and Jesus was transported over here in a book to America.

Prier to 1492, the Native American Indians, had no previous knowledge of God and Jesus and survived quite well thank you, before the whiteman brought religion and his savior on a stick over here to America. There was not one church on American soil, now look at how the virus of religion is spreading like wildfire, there is a church of practically every denomination on every street corner. Now the American Indians had no need of a bible god or Jesus and they were called Heathren Savages and carried no human value, so most of them were killed in the name of religion and god.

Now here we are in 2006 and god and Jesus still serve no purpose to anyone except to the preachers that willing accept money for their services.

Now go pray for us and tell us we are all going to hell, and that we never were saved to begin with and that your religion and beliefs are the true religion and that you talk to god on a regular basis.

Have a great day in your lord.

Anonymous said...

Dear Ex-Christians,

Carefully watch what this pastor is trying to do. "It's not your mother's church"...hmmm. If I were a pastor I would probably be trying to re-invent myself (along with my religion) and create nifty slogans to distance myself from the jackasses who currently represent modern fundamentalism. That includes the crazies in our government who implement the agenda of the christian-wrong.

Pastor, what you propose is not fair. You are asking that the self-love that we have been denied by centuries of self-minimalization taught by the christian faith be cast-off willy-nilly so that we can join your flavor of the same poison.

This is your mission statement:

"Vision Statement
We believe that lost people matter to God, and, therefore, must matter to us.
We believe that people in need matter to God, and, therefore, must matter to us.
We believe that community matters to god, and, therefore, must matter to us.
We believe that reaching out in love matters to God, and, therefore, must matter to us."

You assume that your community has "Lost" people who must be "found" (may I assume "Saved"). Thanks, I was lost (in religion) and now I have found my way.

I was born okay the first time.

I am just learning how to love myself...

Anonymous said...

Hey, leave Denny alone. He's happy in the lord, and will no doubt give all of his money to the poor and go to one of the third world countries and volunteer to help the poor people that God has forgotten about.

He loves himself, God and everybody else, and I'm sure that he want's to get to heaven, so he must hate this life and start preparing for paradise.

It won't be long before he realizes that playing pastor and duping his congregation out of their hard earned money is just too shallow. I feel certain that he will give up the comfort of his home soon and go live with the dope addicts, diseased, malformed, stupid, and vicious criminals who need his love more than the nice people in suburbia. Maybe he can even get the Lord to help.
Dano

Anonymous said...

Fellow Ex-Christians,

Here is Pastor Denny's welcome message on their website:

"Welcome!
We are a small church, in the big city,
but don't worry about room, we have plenty.

Just come on by, if only to say "hi".
We'll tell you about Jesus and the reason He died.

We are a church who truly cares,
and if you ever need us we promise to be there.

We know it's hard to sometimes fit in,
but we are not perfect, we too have sinned.

So why not begin again,
with the help of a new friend?"

Sounds like they might welcome gays, etc. - as long as you admit that you are a sinner. Salvation from what? Salvation from our nasty sinfull nature that we were born with, of course!

I say again:

I was born okay the first time!!!

Anonymous said...

Sorry for the on-slaught of posts, but this just gets more and more fun. Check out some of the lesson plans for this church:

http://occog.com/my-journal/

Damn... Nice Try Pastor - you are just a reinvention of the same fundamentalist crap that pollutes our country!!!!

Anonymous said...

Here's one of the topics on that site :-)

October 26, 2005
Wednesday Nite: Angels & Demons #2

"Dr. Vernon McGee writes: “All I know is that man was made a little lower than the angels, and through redemption man was lifted into a place of fellowship with God, a position above the angels. We are going to be above the angels. We are going to judge them and have charge of them.”"
http://occog.com/my-journal/archives/cat_wednesday_nite_studies.html#000042

Its all about "Power" and Reward in religion... If we are good servants (slaves) to the lord (to the clergy) here, then, or course we are going to be rewarded with "angelic" slaves in heaven... Talk about having a morality issue in heaven, I suppose the Angels can't band together and create a Declaration of Independence from the big house of Tyranny... oh, that's right, some did rebel, and were kicked out... according to these immoral evangelists...

"God created all angels as holy ones. He chose to place some angelic orders above others. Not all enjoyed the same position or responsibility in relation to God’s plan for them."

I suppose you have to have your sanitation angels, and their positions... while other angels get the more prestigious positions...

"The most favored angel we know as Satan. Satan, along with other angels, was thrown out of heaven. All of these angels are under Satan’s direction and are the unholy angels, or the evil ones."

Okay, god created only Holy Angels, but Satan is the most favored Angel... I wonder how many third graders this guy is going to teach, that are going to raise their hands, and ask, how that is possible.

Anonymous said...

Hi Rev. Denny,

You should have included the bible in your list of man made man altereds, and no, I don't love god or jesus, how can I love something I don"t believe exists? I do, however, love my family, some close friends, myself, and people in general, and I do what I can for those who are less fortunate. Most importantly, I am able to do all this without a supreme being telling me I have to or I will burn forever in hell.

Anonymous said...

Why do so many people take one look at this website and assume that they know everything about every one of us, inluding our innermost thoughts and experiences?

Anonymous said...

I just don´t disagree with religion.
I disagree with all christian moral and values.
I don´t belive in Jaweh, Jesus Christ, "Virgen Maria" or any of the saints.

If any of you all "atheists" read this, note that by not beliving in a god there is no fundamentation for any moral or christian values.

Christianity is not only a religion is much much more than that. Its a value and moral system.

Pls read, read and read.

Anonymous said...

"If any of you all "atheists" read this, note that by not beliving in a god there is no fundamentation for any moral or christian values."

That depends on how you define "moral values".

Anonymous said...

well, i personally don't care about the religous people. and atheists just pick on christianity because it rears it's bloated head the most.

i don't care if you love jesus, but i can't help but to think of people who love and serve him too. like the KKK. wonderful people :|

Anonymous said...

Right wing moral values, let's see:

Bilk millions of dollars from the elderly and the poor under the guise of a TV ministry for donations for starving people in (Africa, India, you name it). Use the money to put air-conditioning units on your doghouses. Talk the gullible church secretary into having sex with you. Jim Baker is still on TV.

Masturbate to a prostitute. While this may seem like a reasonably safe encounter with a prostitute, it flies in the face of your preaching about evil "fornicators". I wonder if your wife thought you were a fornicator: Jimmy Swaggert, still on TV.

Killing innocent Iraqis after duping Congress members and citizens that there was a urgent and immediate threat. Fixing the intelligence around your selfish desire.

War Profiteering

Using your position as a religious leader to help a sleazy lobbyist screw two indian gaming concerns out of millions of dollars. God knows we have always treated Native Americans fairly with Christian Moral values through-out the centuries.

This could go on forever.

Shove your "christian" moral values where the "sun don't shine".

Everyone, sing together:

"Imagine there's no country,
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
and no religion to..."

Anonymous said...

Now just wait a minute folks, I want to join Mr. Denny's church, cause I have a heavy heart, my heart aches for God, I must get my heart right with God, I must surrender my heart to God, I must turn the rudder of my heart towards God, and my heart cries out to God, but first I must give Jesus the keys to my heart, then I must open the door to my heart, and invite God into my heart, then I must open the eyes of my heart, then I must let God touch my heart, then I must let God speak to my heart, then let God bless my heart, let God soothe my heart, let God heal my heart, and then my soul will be saved by grace, through faith, etc, ___________________________________(add your own bullshit here)

What I can't understand if God is real, why do you need faith? What good is faith? Faith just gets in the way?

Well folks what we have here is just another brainless gray matter sucked out fundy. Amen?

Anonymous said...

I like the Indian example...where did the bible god and jesus come from and how did they get here?
Since there were lots of other people living all over the world, why did god not see to it that every person got an equal chance to be saved by a god in disguise as jesus and what took god so long to come up with the jesus salvation plan? What kind of idiot god are we talking about here?

The Indians certainly knew not of this god, are Indians, human beings too? Are Indians and blacks less human than whites?

Was jesus white or black?

I believe jesus was white, because it was white people that brought jesus over here.

Anonymous said...

Tammy said...

"I believe jesus was white, because it was white people that brought jesus over here."

1/12/2006 8:45 PM

Yeah Tammy, they smuggled him over in the blankets, with the small-pox!!!

islgrl said...

Hi Reverend. My first time on this site as well, & guess I believe you could be right for me anyway, & guess it was nice to see a Reverend that doesn't seem to be into all the judgements. It appears many of the others are more suspect of you, & maybe they have reason, but I don't. I do believe religion, i.e. Christainity has been twisted, & manipulated for a very long time, & if you mean the things you are saying about loving one's neighbor, it does appear the regulars on here feel the exact same way, without any requirements of a God or a religion. I do believe there is a God, and JC, but the message is very simple, and all the detail work our society is putting into the rules & reg's are quite simply B.S. I do thank you for your post, & wish there were more of you, for I for one am doubting anything to do with Christainity with the shennigans of the Christain right in this country. Their "freedom" of religion allowed in our country is becoming a requirement for everyone else, & often times I feel bludgoned by their beliefs, & superior attitudes, & guess that is what you mean that they don't want to be on the same level of everyone else. All I know is everyday I feel that I am locked in a nightmare that won't end, titled "Christainity."

Anonymous said...

Of all places available all over the world, why did god choose the Middle East to have his bible inspired?

Answer: The Opium capital of the world, even to this very day.

Opium poppy has been broadly associated with cultures of the Near East, e.g., Turkey. Nonetheless, recent studies of archaeological and written records suggest that the plant originated elsewhere. In fact, it now appears that the species is native to southern France, Spain, and northwestern Africa. There is a cave site in southern Spain, dated at 5500 B.C., in which intact capsules of opium poppy were found in a religious artifact.

Need one say more?

freeman said...

Denny,
I haven't the necessary amount of toes and fingers to count the "living gods" of this world. Dave8, can you help me on the number please.

I am so tired of people not seeking the proper psychological help they need to heal their emotional deficiencies. It is incredible that they resort to such mind bending unrealistic delusions of a "personal savior".

God only helps those who help themselves. In other words, get off your lazy ass and get your life in order you lazy bastards!

Anonymous said...

Gallee I feel gawd a tugging on my heartstrings...dohhhhh

We don't want to be lied to, even if you think it is for our own good.

Anonymous said...

Bob, Right wing moral values indeed, speaking of which, if you think the worst has happened in regards to corruption in our government, stay tuned for the new and improved supreme court and the rulings we and our children will be living with for the next 25-30 years. I have been listening non stop this evening to the hearings, and commentary afterwards. I hope I am just paranoid, but I have a very bad feeling about where things are headed, especially for women in the USA. It wasn't hard for me to understand from reading Mr. Alito's dissentions, past rulings, and personal writings, and listening to him the past few days skirt around important issues, that he shows no regard or respect for women.

Thanks to god, Sam, and GWB, women will have to fight twice as hard to keep from being hurled back into the dark ages.

Anonymous said...

freeman: "I haven't the necessary amount of toes and fingers to count the "living gods" of this world. Dave8, can you help me on the number please."

Hello freeman, I have a reference book that has a pretty thorough listing, however, they don't give the number of gods, and the book is a few inches thick :-)

However, I went to this web site:

http://www.eskimo.com/~elladan/gods/

I cut and pasted the web page into an excel spreadsheet, and removed the title header rows, and... there were 4,938 gods listed. I am not sure its all inclusive, but, it does go to show that the same natural objects were worshipped by different cultures, and they all believed they had the truth. The truth, is they were all worshipping nature, especially the Indians... Each culture seemed to determine the personality, meaning, and expectations of what these natural objects wanted from them, in order to keep peace and harmony, others just worshipped their natural objects without imposing requirements for the worshipper... There is not "one" transcendent "god" listed among these gods provided, that doesn't have a "Natural", description using Nature... In short, the gods started from man's observations of "nature", and where given attributes, to include where they "resided", i.e., in what "reality"... This Natural Universe as part of Nature, or some Metaphysical Objective Reality, where only "perfect" gods live...

Still, all gods take a Natural form, because mankind can't describe something they state exists in an alternate reality, while they are still in this natural universe...

While we are at it, El was a western semitic (Jewish) creator god, of Syria, Lebanon, and Israel, worshipped from 2500BCE until 700BCE, and was modelled after the god of the Canaanites "Il", and was represented by a bull calf, hence the worshipping of the golden calf. Biblical texts trasform El as meaning "lord". The northern tribes of Judah, used El as their creator name, however, the southern state of Judah wanted to pressure them to change the name to YHWH. Still, the northern state of Judah kept the name El, until the north was suppressed by Tiglathpileses II from Assyria.

There was an overlap between the North and South Judah states, as they worshipped their creator god. South Judah, even though El (bull calf), was still being worshipped by the North, created YHWH 1200BCE-Present as El died off from Assyrian oppression in Northern Judah. Of course, this Creator God, was one in a long line of creator gods, the Egyptian deity Atum (Aten), 15th century BCE was a likely model.

So, YWHW eventually superseded the Nothern god El, to become supreme deity of Israel. Interestingly, enough, during the period of the Hellenic occupation, the sanctuary of YHWH on Mount Gerizim in Samaria (Northern Kingdom of Judah) was re-dedicated to Zeus.

The old testament writings, particularly the psalms, are littered with references indicating acceptance of many gods in the pantheon. Translators, over time, have substituted eupemisms such as "saints" and "holy men". And, we all know that YHWH, as accepted as a universal deity facilitated the further morphing into the Arabic arena as Allah in Islamic tradition 300BCE-Present. Well, thus ends todays' reading from;

"Dictionary of Gods And Goddesses", authored by Michael Jordan, and published by Checkmark Books...

Anonymous said...

Thank you for that wake-up call, Reverend, You're quite right; these shallow things are nothing to do with the real message of God:

Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.
-- Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary (1911)

Seriously, and because you seem nice enough. Sorry for the cheap point-scoring. The truth is, it's not just the fact that we have troubles with religion; it's just that we don't need imaginary friends. And nor do you.

Anonymous said...

Hi Madbuni,

It is all hubris. They have become so emboldened, drunk with power, with their "mandate" from the christian-wrong that they do not even feel like they owe the Senate an answer to their appropriate questions, much less an honest one. I'm sure Alito was coached to just sit quite. What ever you do Alito, never admit to your membership and promotion of your racist/sexist alumnae assocation.

In college, I heard about the subjugation of various peoples by "white men in ties". A woman's right to her own body is quickly erroding.

White (men) Superiority - the king of their "christian" moral values:

God placed man above woman.

God punished Noah's son for laughing at his father's naked body, thus turning the son's skin dark. That was a "theory" floating around the fundys during the sixties explaining why whites were superior to blacks. Blacks had been cursed - by GOD!

Manifest destiny and the need to convert the "pointy-headed" heathens to christianity. Boy, millions died over that one.

The Crusades, which not only killed Arabs, but tens of thousands of jews. Why? Because they were responsible for killing Jesus. King George has declared "this crusade, this war on terrorism, is going to take awhile." Are we still on his first crusade or is Iraq the Second crusade? Will the second/third Crusade be Iran? They are the fourth largest oil producing country. Today, we were warned that Iran is advancing its nuclear program... Sound familiar?

Along with the other christian moral values that I mentioned in an earlier comment, this one could go on forever.

Hey, christians who lurk around here - you have egg on your tie!!! Stop with the justification for christianity because it brings moral values to the world. I don't like your moral values. They just don't strike me as, oh, I don't know, MORAL!

Atheists have better values, they're actually a lot more moral and "christ-like". Personal responsibility requires self-examination. You can't blame God, or the devil, or evil men misrepresenting your cherished religion. If you aren't moral, it is your fault and you need to fix yourself.

Stop the Apocolypse by stopping the religious nuts who are bringing it on themselves.

You should have to pass a sanity test before you are given the trigger for nuclear annihilation.

Thanks again, good people!

Anonymous said...

islgrl wrote:

"All I know is everyday I feel that I am locked in a nightmare that won't end, titled "Christianity."

posted: 1/12/2006 9:06 PM EST

Take care, Love. I had the same nightmare for many decades. I woke up from that nightmare.

I feel much better now.

Anonymous said...

Religion has had its impact on all people of all races, genders, sexual orientations, etc.

Latter Day Saints (LDS), Mormons:
The First Presidency of the church in 1947 said: “From the days of the Prophet Joseph even until now, it has been the doctrine of the Church, never questioned by any of the Church leaders, that the Negroes are not entitled to the full blessings of the Gospel.” (Letter from the First Presidency of the Mormon Church, July 17, 1947, as cited in Mormonism and the Negro, by John J. Stewart, 1960, pages 46-47)

The Book Of Mormon:
“And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse, upon them because of their transgression.” (Alma 3:6; 2 Nephi 5:21)

BRIGHAM YOUNG
(Second Prophet and President of the Mormon Church)

"I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the Children of men, that they may not call scripture!" Journal of Discourses, Volume 13, page 95.

"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable, sad, low in their habits, wild, ad seemingly without the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be and the Lord put a mark on him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then other curse is pronounced upon the same race - that they would be the "servant of servants;" and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree." Journal of Discourses, Volume 7, pages 290 291

"Nevertheless, the firm Mormon teaching that a whole race of people are "cursed with a black skin" for sins committed by them before they were born remains to this very day, no announcement or "revelation" has removed it."
http://www.saintsalive.com/mormonism/africanamerican.htm

"After the LDS church granted the priesthood to “all” worth male members in June 1978, Apostle Bruce R. McConkie stated: “...it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsover has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.... We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness....It doesn't make a particle of difference what anybody ever said about the Negro matter before the first day of June of this year (1978).” (“All Are Alike Unto God,” pp.1-2)"
http://www.letusreason.org/LDS22.htm

Well, having attended many LDS services, I can honestly say, that if the doctrine presented wasn't practiced vehemently, the non-diversity of the church was definitely a message to me. The Mormons of today, are attempting to seek out new african american members and converts to show their diversity and cover their history.

Humor, at least they have a Modern Day Prophet, who can change doctrine with a pen, a religion based on "change" and "relativism". Very forward thinking, to have a religion that can withstand time and change by an ongoing change of doctrine. It beats using doctrine which becomes outdated and ridiculous. At least the Mormon strategy, per their founder, presented a manner of keeping up with cultural change... However, the Absolutist Christians (fundamentalists) don't much care for the wishy washy change concept. They still want women repressed per the bible, absolutely and for all time.

Anonymous said...

---------------------
Ben wrote:

Of all places available all over the world, why did god choose the Middle East to have his bible inspired?

Answer: The Opium capital of the world, even to this very day.

Opium poppy has been broadly associated with cultures of the Near East, e.g., Turkey. Nonetheless, recent studies of archaeological and written records suggest that the plant originated elsewhere. In fact, it now appears that the species is native to southern France, Spain, and northwestern Africa. There is a cave site in southern Spain, dated at 5500 B.C., in which intact capsules of opium poppy were found in a religious artifact.

Need one say more?

posted: 1/12/2006 9:11 PM EST
---------------------

Well, crap. Religion really IS the opium of the masses!

Anonymous said...

I have a problem with christian churches because they are like bar owners. They will slam every other bar on the street and say WE are different because we are not a bar, we are a PUB. The problem is that people go to bars. They should come to our PUB instead.

And yet if you look at what they are serving up it is the same. They just like to call it a different name.

It is the same with legalism. Every Pastor knows WHAT legalism is and every Pastor declares that they are not legalistic. Then they call other Pastors legalistic. It is deceptive.

Anonymous said...

"...The Christianity you are debunking is as far as I can tell man-made and man-altered."

Nope.
I was a loner christian for several years before I finally dumped it. The only thing I followed was the bible and Martin Luthers idea of "every man being his own priest before God".
My parents warned me with verses about the body of christ and fellowship, etc. but I maintained that "It's between me and God".
The church I had left was full of fundamentalist legalism and a hypocritical memebership - so I dumped it, - but Note: I did not leave christianity itself for several more years.
I'm not that thick as to not realise that 'it's only the teachings of Jesus that matter'.
I believed the bible was the inerrant 'Word of God' inspired by the 'Holy Spirit'.
I believed that anybody who wasn't a christian just hadn't been shown it properly, and that any contradictions they thought they saw in the bible could be properly explained.
Except I had never heard the word 'apologetics' until I got online... (thanks to the congregation I was in).
I always thought I had nothing to fear, because I knew was totally honest and that the bible was totally true.
When I saw online that there were actual contradictions, and that the christian 'explanations' were more like pathetic excuses I was shaken.
Of course I was concerned about this being the tricks of the devil trying to lure me away, etc. and so I researched more and more - but I was only convinced more and more.
I was eventually confident enough to admit that the bible is ingenious but ultimately pathetic.
It's the bible itself that is completely man-made and man altered.
It describes a completely human god - flawed and vindictive, totally unworthy of worship.
My own flawed mortal self has better values and could come up with better solutions to the worlds problems than he had.
Rather than fear and deny I actually felt excited.

That feeling is not a trick of the devil. It's called Freedom, and I can never be dragged back into bondage.

Anonymous said...

This post is specifically for Tammy. I would like to address some of the concerns you brought up. Your analogy of the indians may be a bit off. I have worked with tribes around the world, and every one of them...with and without missionary involvement do believe in a "great spirit" yet do not worship Him because their spirits (yes, the do talk to spirits: for instance the Yanamamoo indians in Venezuela have Jaguar Spirit, Anaconda Spirit, and the like) tell them that he is too hot, or eats the souls of children or what not. So to make a statement that the Indians of this culture did not know of said God is simply an opinion, and, as Socrates said, "Opinions without knowledge are ugly things." Your statement in regards to why didnt God give everyone an equal chance...if one were to read the Old Testament the question is answered. Clearly, whether you believe in it or not, God is seen as making Israel the people by which the Messiah would come. Therefore, there was not Messiah in Native American culture because that was not the means by which God had choosen to send the Messiah. Also at the time of Christ the known world was united, I use that term losely, under the Roman Empire and Koine Greek was the common language. It would be similar to living in Eastern Europe where English is the buisness language. Because the language was so widespread it made it easy to understand and spread the Gospel. In other words there was no major language barrier. So the "idiot God" might not be so stupid after all. Before anyone comes up with any more questions or asks me to prove anything else. This was simply for Tammy. I am not, nor have time, to prove Christianity is True or that God exists. Just remember "Opinions without knowledge are ugly things" and sometimes we scream our opinions so much that there is no longer any need for knowledge and they simply become descriptive assumptions or how we want our world to be and have no bearing on how our world really is.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said,
God did the things that he did because that is they way God did things.

Wow! I wonder why no one ever explained things so clearly to us before!
Dano

jimearl said...

Anonymous wrote:
Just remember "Opinions without knowledge are ugly things" and sometimes we scream our opinions so much that there is no longer any need for knowledge and they simply become descriptive assumptions or how we want our world to be and have no bearing on how our world really is.

You must be referring to the religious right with this statement and I agree wholeheartly.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous, Thank you so much for your apologetic attempt to discredit the obvious. What I said was that the American Indians knew not of the Middle Eastern Bible God, before 1492, but as I'm sure your opinion without your knowledge, is more palatable to your liking, and since you have worked all over the world with tribes in this last century, you have acquired all the vast knowledge there is to be known with Indians past and present, so
unless you have worked with the American Indians before 1492, you must bestow some knowledge of them not supplied in our present history books. I honestly doubt that there has ever been a Tribe or a civilization that did not have a god to imagine or one to believe in, if man has no god, he will create one. The American Indians had rain gods, corn gods, fish gods, bear gods, etc. But it is not my opinion that they worshipped or believed in an Arab Bible God, it is your opinion that they did.

Wholboy in disgust;

you wrote,
(God is seen as making Israel the people by which the Messiah would come. Therefore, there was not Messiah in Native American culture because that was not the means by which God had choosen to send the Messiah). Dear Anon, seriously have you read what you wrote?

(Also at the time of Christ the known world was united, I use that term losely, under the Roman Empire and Koine Greek was the common language. It would be similar to living in Eastern Europe where English is the business language. Because the language was so widespread it made it easy to understand and spread the Gospel.)

Again anon, such grandiose apologetic claim, what brand of christian apologetic spray are you using? I completely understand your need and desire for your religion to work it's way out of the bible, but you're way over the top, but we are used to it here.

The problem that you have, as well as all other christians is, that you are trying to equate the bible with your present day World View, the bible was not written with this present World View, 20-21st century in mind, so you all have to hunt and scratch and dig for apologetic answers to fill the void that the ancient bible writers never knew about and could only guess about what they were saying. The bible was never divinely inspired by a god, it was inspired by people with delusional emotional fear of dying.

As long as you christians can dig out an apologetic answer to your own satifaction, your belief will continue to strive, as of now, your apologetic answers carries no weight to us here, we've heard them all and have made a few of them up ourselves in the past.

Thats all I got to say about that.

Anonymous said...

Damn Bob, want to run away with me and start a revolution? Never mind, I don't think I could be somebody's bitch in prison, I'm not that young anymore. LOL

Loved all you had to say about christianity being the cause of all our woes, it was right on. Don't civilizations crumble when men are drunk with power?

I also agree that Alito was coached, and if his wife wasn't told to cry on cue, she probably caught holy hell that night for embarrassing Sam on national TV.

Now I am going back and reading your posts about change in the wind, and a secular society. I need some positive reinforcement right about now. LOL It will have to be "we the people" who put a stop to all of this, and that my friend will take a lot of time.

Take care,

Anonymous said...

Tammy, that was a great post! You go girl! That's all I can say, you covered it so well.

Anonymous said...

Anon: "...believe in a "great spirit" yet do not worship Him because their spirits ... tell them that he is too hot, or eats the souls of children or what not."

(I know you don't want to answer questions, that's too scary, so just think of these as rhetorical...)
Are they to be blamed for not worshipping a being they think eats babies souls, etc?
Why would they break their religion?
It's just a cultural thing.
You don't worship that 'other spirit' called Satan, because he likes to destroy souls too. It just depends on what culture you were brought up in.

"Your statement in regards to why didnt God give everyone an equal chance...if one were to read the Old Testament the question is answered. Clearly, whether you believe in it or not, God is seen as making Israel the people by which the Messiah would come...."

You've missed the point.
There was (supposedly) four thousand years of tribes people all around the world living and dying for generation after generation before Jesus supposedly came. Their souls defaulting to hell because they didn't even know about Jesus to make him their Lord and Saviour, or they weren't born into god's Chosen people for their sacrifices to be acceptable...

"Also at the time of Christ the known world was united, I use that term losely, under the Roman Empire and Koine Greek was the common language..."

You've missed the point, again.
The 'known' world? What bullshit. What about All the tribes, around the Actual world, where humans Actually were in those days...
Yes, just because they hadn't been discovered yet doesn't mean they didn't exist.

Also, does them knowing about some other 'great spirit' who they are afraid of, tell them that he is destined to send his son to earth to die for the sins of Adam and Eve and that he'll rise again after three days and ascend into heaven and that he's going to come again, etc?
These 'essential elements for salvation' are just too much story for them to be able to infer from a knowledge of 'some other spirit who's 'too hot' for them'...

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 1/13/2006 7:46 AM: "This post is specifically for Tammy. I would like to address some of the concerns you brought up. Your analogy of the indians may be a bit off. I have worked with tribes around the world, and every one of them...with and without missionary involvement do believe in a "great spirit" yet do not worship Him because their spirits (yes, the do talk to spirits: for instance the Yanamamoo indians in Venezuela have Jaguar Spirit, Anaconda Spirit, and the like) tell them that he is too hot, or eats the souls of children or what not. So to make a statement that the Indians of this culture did not know of said God is simply an opinion, and, as Socrates said, "Opinions without knowledge are ugly things."

Uh, point was, the Indians chose their gods, not vice versa. If a god wanted to be known as supreme across the entire globe, then that god failed by the sheer number of gods being worshipped from the beginning of Indian settlement, until today. The fact that the sun gods were given different personalities, names, etc., makes it obvious that a god didn't make a visit in everyone's mind. Mankind has had to make god(s), using naturally observable objects, such as jaguar's, bears, eagles, buffalo, etc.

Anonymous: "Your statement in regards to why didnt God give everyone an equal chance...if one were to read the Old Testament the question is answered."

If you are suggesting that the Jews were the chosen ones in the Old Testament because it was gods' plan. Then might I suggest, continuing to read, into the gospels where in theory god took the chosen status away and stated that all people could receive salvation if they abided by the word. In short, god changed his mind, in the bible, talking about having "misguided" opinions, it appears the god of the bible had the wrong opinion when he declared the Jews were the chosen. Again, even when god changed his mind, he didn't go to every Indian tribe, race, etc., and spread his gospel, hence the over 4,900 gods listed on today's records from cultures around the world.

Anonymous: "Clearly, whether you believe in it or not, God is seen as making Israel the people by which the Messiah would come."

However, when Jesus arrived the Jews denied him as he never became the Moshiach. Neither did he fill the Old Testament prophesies, or fit the bill for being The Messiah to bring them into their promised New Kingdom. Hence, why so many Jews were willing to fight during the crusades.

Anonymous: "Therefore, there was not Messiah in Native American culture because that was not the means by which God had choosen to send the Messiah."

Well, he'd better hurry up, its been over two thousand years, the god has changed from El in the northern kingdom of Judah, to YHWH, in the souther kingdom of Judah, and again as Allah to the Muslims. Those who worshipped El, went back to Zeus in many places, and YHWH and Allah have followers who think their "name" for their god is better than the other persons'. Also, unless a god shows up, to prove his/her/its point, then all gods are equal. If gods' intent to get the message out, was to use a demi-god Jesus, he sucked at getting the point accross, as the people of that era weren't convinced. Seems a god could have done a little more to convince the chosen people, unless the god didn't exist.

Anonymous: "Also at the time of Christ the known world was united, I use that term losely, under the Roman Empire and Koine Greek was the common language."

By the time a Jesus showed up on the scene in the CE, much of the world according to archeological evidence was inhabited by some culture, and speaking different languages. There are bible stories used to illustrate why people spoke different languages, like the tower of babel for instance. The world didn't spin around Rome, there were already cultures worshipping creator gods, sun gods, and in different languages.

Anonymous: "It would be similar to living in Eastern Europe where English is the buisness language."

You must be joking, there was one language for the entire globe huh. Well, that straightens out everything.

Anonymous: "Because the language was so widespread it made it easy to understand and spread the Gospel."

The original bible was transcribed into Aramaic, Latin, etc., etc. Imagine that, I suppose not everyone spoke Hebrew in Rome.

Anonymous: "In other words there was no major language barrier. So the "idiot God" might not be so stupid after all."

No, god was an idiot if god was supposed to be a universal god who was coming to pass a message. If god were truly universal, then the language would have also been written in a universal tone, which it was not, nor did every culture aruond the populated world know of this god.

Anonymous: "Before anyone comes up with any more questions or asks me to prove anything else. This was simply for Tammy. I am not, nor have time, to prove Christianity is True or that God exists. Just remember "Opinions without knowledge are ugly things" and sometimes we scream our opinions so much that there is no longer any need for knowledge and they simply become descriptive assumptions or how we want our world to be and have no bearing on how our world really is."

Well, thanks for your opinion. The historians, anthropologists, psychologists, geologists, of the world tend to "disagree" in just about everything you said.

If you actually want to see how your bible was translated over and over, here is something for you to read; I find it more helpful, to learn some knowledge, before just muttering opinion, on common languages, etc., as if time stood still and so did the words of the bible in their meaning.

"This writer does not presume to be an expert on all facets of textual criticism, or possess an exhaustive understanding of all three declensions of the Greek language and the nuances of verb tense, although he has read and translated from several Greek texts for more than twenty-five years and scrupulously compared most currently available translations with those texts - verse by verse and word by word. His desire is to return the grace of his personal education for the benefit of the aspiring student who loves the Bible and needs an accurate, balanced, yet unsophisticated lift to their own literary advancement."

"It is entirely presumptuous for the informed to misdirect the uninformed by suggesting: “Let's check the original Greek” when there exists no such opportunity. Conversely in the interest of balance, there are passages which read exactly the same in almost all known manuscripts (John 1:1). Is it then permissible to conclude that these instancies are faithful reproductions of the original composition? The point attempted herein to be made is simply that unless one actually possesses the Original of any copied work (legal, diplomatic, or biblical), one should refrain from enouncing with ontological certitude the exact nature of the unseen progenitor. Words have clear definable meanings and original does not mean similar -- it means original."
http://www.cob-net.org/compare.htm

Anonymous said...

NO Thanks Pastor!!!! Been there done that and at the end of my "christian walk" I was left empty, discouraged,depressed, and pesimistic about people and life in general. And yes I gave my heart and soul to the Lord. Get real. Most of us in here were at one point in time sincere and dedicated christians and we are just now starting to get our thoughts and lives put back together. So please go to another website and preach your nonsense somewhere else. Just like Bob most of us in here can say Been there done that and YES we all got the shirt. AMEN!!!!

Anonymous said...

Madbuni said...
"Damn Bob, want to run away with me and start a revolution? Never mind, I don't think I could be somebody's bitch in prison, I'm not that young anymore. LOL"

Scary, isn't it? Everyone should read 1984 by Orwell again. The History channel ran a great thing on the FBI surveillance of John Lennon last night (http://www.historychannel.com/global/listings/series_showcase.jsp?EGrpType=Series&Id=16513135&NetwCode=THC) that runs again on Monday. How about a commune instead of a revolution, Madbuni?

Spacemonk,

Thanks for your great replies. Anonymous seems to have that christian knack of marginalizing cultures that aren't sacred to the christian faith - Jews and Roman Empire Gentiles. What about the rest of the world?

His work with South American Indians seems a little marginalizing in itself. Why do the indigenous people of South America (and various tribes around the world, whatever that means) need someone from another culture telling them what to do? Smells like Manifest Destiny to me...

Anonymous: "Just remember "Opinions without knowledge are ugly things" and sometimes we scream our opinions so much that there is no longer any need for knowledge and they simply become descriptive assumptions or how we want our world to be and have no bearing on how our world really is."

So, you were just saving the Indians from their assumptions or a belief in how they wanted their world to be? Just spreading a little "knowledge"? Get over yourself. You don't have all the answers. Your "knowledge" is no better than anyone elses, even if YOU think that it is God inspired.

Thank you Dave8 very much for the back-up on the history of white superiority over blacks - Great stuff.

WWJD - Who Would Jesus Do?

Anonymous said...

"...keep on keepin' on-raise up in the name of the lard."

What a cool and hip pastor! Bet he recites prayer to hip-hop music during services. No matter how he tries to serve it up, though, it is all still BS and fraud.

By the way, WTF does "raise up" mean? Raise what? How high? Hmmm...xians are soooo weird.

Hi,Madbuni. We will be screwed with Alito. No matter what he says about following the law, his stickin' religious beliefs will trump everything else. Yes, wifey is a piece or work, if she wasn't acting she has serious mental problems.

Regards, carol

XaurreauX said...

"Clearly, whether you believe in it or not, God is seen as making Israel the people by which the Messiah would come. Therefore, there was not Messiah in Native American culture because that was not the means by which God had choosen to send the Messiah."

I believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn. I know it exists because I can't see it.

Anonymous said...

Hi Pastor. There is no God and their never was a New Testament Jesus born of a virgin. End of story.Peddle your crap elsewhere

Anonymous said...

ANY INSTITUTION OR GROUP THAT BELIEVES IN THE DIVINE OR THE SUPERNATURAL IS A RELIGION. END OF STORY

Anonymous said...

I don't know why a group of people , tribe or race would want to bow down to a system that has enslaved and killed their people.

It seems their minds are still in shackles.

Anonymous said...

Bob (Been There, Got the T-Shirt): "Thank you Dave8 very much for the back-up on the history of white superiority over blacks - Great stuff."

Hey Bob, yeah, its great to sit back and see how people define truth. Many people of today attempt to create "truth", by ignoring historical records, etc. Its like they go back in time, and start painting over little pieces of the historical picture, in order to create a "better" picture. Much to their chagrin, many people still have the historical records and the original picture intact, and can spot a "fraud" picture, with its gleaming wet pain. Perhaps, the religious will attempt another mass book burning, in an effort to erase the historical timelines, so we can relive the dark ages ;-) Take care...

Anonymous said...

"...keep on keepin' on-raise up in the name of the lard."

What a cool and hip pastor! Bet he recites prayer to hip-hop music during services.

Carol,

Actually, that's christian rap. Ya need to get hippy wid it yo!

Anonymous said...

How did America become a nation of religious Zealots?

How did Jesus and religion get started in America? Was it the native Americans speaking about the great white Buffalo?

Answer: Religion and Jesus made it's way to America by sailing vessel. It was carried ashore in 1492 and much credit was given to the god of the bible for letting the pilgrims arrive here safely.

Now the only way to infect another person is by hearing or volunteering to read by one's own accord, this is the only way a religion and fables can be passed on to another person.

The American Indian could not read the English language, this already made whiteman think that he was superior. Now the same peoples whom come over here and their descendants that invaded this land are still repeating the same useless scriptures, by repetition and the infection lives on, there is no cure for the disease except to suddenly realize that you've been duped into your belief by minipulation, mostly by the same people that you've allowed yourself to trust, the same people that you thought had already weighed the evidence with thoughtful consternation.

Religion is an addictive disease of the mind, a mind virus infected by the word to the ears or through the eyes to the brain, to the main CPU, garbage in, but not easily removed.

Now after realizing you've been snookered, you realize that it is you yourself, that must carefully weigh the evidence for what it is, and a feeling overwhelming stupidy dwells within, and then an overwheming gladness comes over you, to think that all along it was all just a fraud, an act being portrayed by false actors, with self-claimed titles. In a way I blame the Indians for not burning every ship and bible that arrived on American shores, but they had no idea such an infectious disease would eventually be the end of their almost total demise.

Mark said...

You guys are being kinda mean to pastor danny, don't you think. What makes your way better than his? How do you think you know there is no God. People tag Christians as being intolerant because they think they know some answers. The pressure is always on the Christians to provide some proof. I think if we're all honest we will admit that we don't know everyting. In fact, if we possessed a measely 1% of all the knowledge in the universe, we would be absolutely and unmatchably wise. But don't you think that even if you knew 1% of everthing there is to know in the universe, there would be some chance in all that 99% of knowledge that there is a God. If you're honest, you'd have to say there's a chance. And I think if you'll look around you, you'll see evidence that there is a God. You don't look at your watch and suppose all those pieces pulled together by chance do you? No, you know your watch had a designer. You know your car in all it's complexities had to have a designer and maker. Our brains are more complex than any computer in the world. They must have had a designer. The vast universe that scientists probably haven't even scratched the surface of understanding, surely had an intelligent designer. I personally believe this God loved us even in our failure to love him, and he came and suffered his own wrath in our place to make a way for us to see him for who he is and to be saved forever. Don't blame God for the failures and stupidity of people who have done evil things in his name. Look at Jesus for the model of perfection rather than people, many of whom never even knew him.
--mm

freeman said...

Mark,
"If you're honest, you'd have to say there's a chance."

I will never say that their is no chance of a CREATOR/FORCE/BIGBANG.
However, I will say that the christian god is a fraud and jesus never walked this earth. Both are make-believe and the bible is fiction with some historical references!

Anonymous said...

So, if we are considered innocent if we never hear the words of god, then why do we need to hear them at all? Hearing the word doesn’t open the gate to heaven any wider. It only unlocks the gate to hell. That’s crappy exchange for innocence.

Anonymous said...

Oh, us bad ole non-xians, being mean to another poor xian. Putting pressure on them to prove their nonsense. Egads, we are monsters!

Hello, Marky, are you there? None of us here claims to know everything, but instead of saying some invisible sky fairy did it, we hope science will continue to learn the answers. However, if xians want us to buy into the wholley babble and the lard, yes-they must prove it to us as most here know what a crock it is and it is easily debunked.

By the way, in the paper the other day there was an article about the rising problem of theft from book stores. I bet all of you can guess what the most stolen book it? The wholey babble! LMAO!

Regards, carol

Anonymous said...

Hey Mark, it sure would be a lot easier to not blame god for the failures and stupidity of people who have done evil things in his name if he were to smite them once in awhile while they were running amok with him name.

Anonymous said...

Ben wrote: "There is a cave site in southern Spain, dated at 5500 B.C., in which intact capsules of opium poppy were found in a religious artifact. "

Finally, an explanation of the book of Revelations that I can understand.

But seriously Denny, there are a few believers who post here and try to minister to us. I have great respect for them, as they are clearly living their faith and courageously exposing themselves to ridicule because they believe they can help us. It is harder to respect someone like you who just blows in and tries to sell his own religion in one easy post. If you want to be taken seriously, stick around and get to know us as individuals. That's what Jesus would have done, right?

Anonymous said...

Mark,
I agree with you 100%. I think God does love us even though we don't love him. I think the part about burning in hell forever is just a joke. No loving God would make us suffer for eternity just because our logical brains can't make any sense of the bible, and the Jesus story. God has a sense of humor. He is a funny guy.

Just because we doubt that he is answering our prayers, and say things like "There is not one shred of evidence that a loving God does exist," I am sure he understands that we are just using our powers of observation, and reason, and don't mean any thing bad by it.

There has to be a perfectly obvious reason, that when he created us he also created evil, disease, suffering, sin, and the devil. (He did create everything, right?)

You don't demand that your kids love you do you? You don't beat the crap out of them just because they say they hate you. You don't require that they worship you either. Of course not. That would be egomaniacal, wouldn't it? I am sure God doesn't either.

I don't think God is going to punish me for being a rationalist and believing only what is logical and makes sense to me.
Dano

Anonymous said...

“You guys are being kinda mean to pastor danny, don't you think.”

Nope

“What makes your way better than his?”

If that was an attempt to make us feel as if we should have not expressed our views, it didn’t work. OK

“How do you think you know there is no God”

And what proof do you have a god or of any gods? Wait; don’t tell me – the universe

“People tag Christians as being intolerant because they think they know some answers.”

Tag you’re it! Ok, we think and know Muslims are intolerant jackasses also. Now, does that make you feel better?

“The pressure is always on the Christians to provide some proof. “

Nope, the pressure is on all religions to provide proof of their deity. You all make these credible claims and no way of backing them up. But being that the topic is the Christian god, where is it/he/she/ and they?

“I think if we're all honest we will admit that we don't know everyting.”

We are honest and we have said over and over “I don’t know.” So far we have not seen the evidence of a god. So do you care to start us off with some of your evidence? I bet we’ve heard it before?

In fact, if we possessed a measely 1% of all the knowledge in the universe, we would be absolutely and unmatchably wise.

Is that a fact Mark? Wow. Did you find the cure for small pox, chicken pox, Gonorrhea, and syphilis. All you have is book written by overdose sheep herders that says pigeon blood cure boils.

But don't you think that even if you knew 1% of everthing there is to know in the universe, there would be some chance in all that 99% of knowledge that there is a God.

How about the opposite in % - 99% of the universe and 1% of this deity? Can you please put your god in a test tube so we can study it? Thanks

If you're honest, you'd have to say there's a chance.

A chance of what? Do you expect us to waste our life time on wishfully thinking? Pascal wager this buddy - Make sure you are worshiping Allah. His hell is hotter.

And I think if you'll look around you, you'll see evidence that there is a God.

Where? Your god is not under my bed is it? Oh forgot – the universe thing

The rest of you post is cut and paste and is nothing but crap…get a mind of your own Polly.

Anonymous said...

Hey Mark,

"People tag Christians as being intolerant because they think they know some answers." Read through this website. Carefully examine what you read. I think you will find that most ex-christians (you know, the people you might expect to meet at a website called exchristians)tag christians simply for being intolerant.

We point to its intolerant past. We point to the intolerance we see in everyday lives, such as the running of this country. Tell me the response poor, African Americans in New Orleans got after Katrina was very tolerant, or christian. I've seen Wal-Mart do more for the victims of Katrina. On a personal note, I have family members who lost everything in Katrina.

One part of the family went to Houston. They went to a church for some assistance during their time of need. As the church member was collecting some items to give them, she had the need to put her two cents in. She said that the reason Katrina hit New Orleans was because of the wickedness of the gays in that city. My brother-in-law asked, "please explain to me why the French Quarter (site of the gay district) was one of the least damaged parts of the city, then" They walked out without their aid.

Pat Robertson tried to make some coin off of Katrina. He even got the US government to list "Operation Blessing" as an officially sanctioned relief organization. All I can say, is: "No Soup for Prayer"

Anonymous said...

"Don't blame God for the failures and stupidity of people who have done evil things in his name."

Gah! Don't assume things about us! How can we blame anything on a god we don' even believe in?

Anonymous said...

Ok, Bob, commune it is!

I am going to try to watch the show you mentioned on History Channel.

So John was a threat to our national security! We're all probably on the famous snoop list for being on this website! LOL

Hi Carol, it makes me sick about Alito. I knew GW would have at least one nominee for the court, because Rhenquist was so sick, but I felt like I had been bitch slapped when Oconner resigned. It isn't fair I tell you, for that jackass to stack the court.

Did you see Alito get up at the end of the hearings and ignore his wife and walk out of the court room as if she weren't there? That's why I think she caught hell for her little breakdown the day before.

Take it easy,

Anonymous said...

An email that I just got. Touching, isn't it?

Text of email message:

DO YOU SMELL THAT?

At the end of this story, it gives you two options.
I think you will figure out what option I chose.

A cold March wind danced around the dead of night in Dallas
as the doctor walked into the small hospital room of
Diana Blessing. She was still groggy from surgery.
Her husband, David, held her hand as they braced themselves
for the latest news.

That afternoon of March 10, 1991, complications had forced
Diana, only 24-weeks pregnant, to undergo an emergency
Cesarean to deliver couple's new daughter, Dana Lu Blessing.

At 12 inches long and weighing only one pound nine ounces,
they already knew she was perilously premature.
Still, the doctor's soft words dropped like bombs.

"I don't think she's going to make it," he said, as kindly
as he could.

"There's only a 10-percent chance she will live through the
night, and even then, if by some slim chance she does make
it, her future could be a very cruel one."

Numb with disbelief, David and Diana listened as the doctor
described the devastating problems Dana would likely face
if she survived.

She would never walk, she would never talk, she would
probably be blind, and she would certainly be prone to
other catastrophic conditions from cerebral palsy to
complete mental retardation, and on and on.

"No! No!" was all Diana could say.

She and David, with their 5-year-old son Dustin, had long
dreamed of the day they would have a daughter to become a
family of four. Now, within a matter of hours, that dream
was slipping away.

But as those first days passed, a new agony set in for
David and Diana.

Because Dana's underdeveloped nervous system was
essentially 'raw', the lightest kiss or caress only
intensified her discomfort, so they couldn't even cradle
their tiny baby girl against their chests to offer the
strength of their love. All they could do, as Dana
struggled alone beneath the ultraviolet light in the tangle
of tubes and wires, was to pray that God would stay close
to their precious little girl.

There was never a moment when Dana suddenly grew stronger.
But as the weeks went by, she did slowly gain an ounce of
weight here and an ounce of strength there.

At last, when Dana turned two months old, her parents were
able to hold her in their arms for the very first time. And
two months later, though doctors continued to gently but
grimly warn that her chances of surviving, much less living
any kind of normal life, were next to zero, Dana went home
from the hospital, just as her mother had predicted.

Five years later, when Dana was a petite but feisty young
girl with glittering gray eyes and an unquenchable zest for
life. She showed no signs whatsoever of any mental or
physical impairment. Simply, she was everything a little
girl can be and more. But that happy ending is far from the
end of her story.

One blistering afternoon in the summer of 1996 near her
home in Irving, Texas, Dana was sitting in her mother's lap
in the bleachers of a local ball park where her brother
Dustin's baseball team was practicing.

As always, Dana was chattering nonstop with her mother and
several other adults sitting nearby when she suddenly fell
silent

Hugging her arms across her chest, little Dana asked,
"Do you smell that?"

Smelling the air and detecting the approach of a
thunderstorm, Diana replied, "Yes, it smells like rain."

Dana closed her eyes and again asked, "Do you smell that?"

Once again, her mother replied,
"Yes, I think we're about to get wet. It smells like rain."

Still caught in the moment, Dana shook her head, patted her
thin shoulders with her small hands and loudly announced,

"No, it smells like Him.

It smells like God when you lay your head on His chest."

Tears blurred Diana's eyes as Dana happily hopped down to
play with the other children.

Before the rains came, her daughter's words confirmed what
Diana and all the members of the extended Blessing family
had known, at least in their hearts, all along.

During those long days and nights of her first two months
of her life, when her nerves were too sensitive for them to
touch her, God was holding Dana on His chest and it is His
loving scent that she remembers so well.

You now have 1 of 2 choices. You can either pass this on
and let other people catch the chills like you did, or you
can delete this and act like it didn't touch your heart
like it did mine.

IT'S YOUR CALL!

"I can do all things in Him who strengthens me."

This morning when the Lord opened a window to Heaven, He saw me, and He
asked: "My child, what is your greatest wish for today?" I responded:

"Lord please, take care of the person who is reading this message, their
family and their special friends. They deserve it and I love them very
much" The love of God is like the ocean, you can see its beginning, but not
its end.

This message works on the day you receive it. Let us see if it is true.
ANGELS EXIST but some times, since they don't all have wings, we call them
FRIENDS.

Pass this on to your true friends. Something good will happen to you at
11:00 in the morning; something that you have been waiting to hear. This is
not a joke; someone will call you by phone or will speak to you about
something that you were waiting to hear.

Do not break this prayer; send it to a minimum of 5 people.

Anonymous said...

I have been back-stabbed, threatened, mocked, and harassed by more Christians than non-christians. Christians do whatever they think is right. All they have to do is add some Biblical quotes to back them up. All the "Christians" i have seen are so fake. They're all hypocrites.

Anonymous said...

I am a Christian with many non-Christian/athiest/agnostic friends. I have read some comments here about how "all" the Christians people have met have been assholes and I'm truly sorry about that. Not all of us are like that. I'm a Christian because it's just what fits ME best, but I don't pressure people to become Christian, because it's not the right thing to do.

I do know a lot of people, like my grandfather, who are pretty much saying that if you don't believe what i believe, then you are an idiot. I believe that all that really matters is that you are a good person by society's standards.

Again I'm sorry about my fellow Christians but remember, just because a lot are jerks, doesn't mean that all are jerks.

Anonymous said...

Mark: "You guys are being kinda mean to pastor danny, don't you think. What makes your way better than his?"

At the most basic level, anything that instills concepts that create "uncertainty" and "ambiguity" in a persons' life, in order to elevate a persons' anxiety, in an effort to then "provide" them a solution, is abusive. This describes psychological abuse, in my opinion. Introducing anxiety in someone elses' life, with "no" evidence is irresponsible and unjust. The "great spirit" was a concept to explain the connection between the metaphysical reality that we are in touch with every day of our lives, there was no "uncertainty" or "ambiguity", just a connection. This connection, was severed with the introduction of "alternate realities", that we can't "know", creating an "unhealthy" and perpetual anxiety. There this "natural" reality, oh, and then there's this "perfect" other reality where heaven and perfect objects reside, and lest we not forget the "least" liked reality where "hell" resides because it can't exist in heaven, its got to have its own little reality as well. Science removed a lot of anxiety and ambiguity thousands of years ago, but was attacked as "fear" was desired by leaders to control their actions.

The difference Mark, is that some people don't feel the need to allow an "external" agency, the ability to "continue" to perpetuate unhealthy levels of "uncertainty" and anxiety in their lives. Where the "anxiety" is introduced by religion, in the form of "sin", which in itself in "undefinable", and different from one religion to the next. Religion is set up, to continue to create "ambiguity", many years ago, by attacking science, and is taught that way in seminary by those whom I have reviewed. Religions attack eachother, not because they disagree with the "formula" of creating "uncertainty" and "ambiguity" in another persons' life, but by the "solution" provided for the "uncertainty" created. The, my god is better than your god, concept.

YHWH (I am what I am), was considered one of the first universal deities, taking on the personification of "all" of the gods who came before, no need for a sun god, a moon god, a tree god, god of agriculture, etc., etc., YHWH was the "all in one" god, created by those who lived in Judah. Thus allowing Rome to focus on "one" god, as the answer to all the questions one could ever have in life. Still, YHWH, didn't provide answers and solutions to reduce "anxiety", due to uncertainty and ambiguity in peoples' lives.

In the Jews' hands YHWH, was one god, and they didn't believe in hell in the manner portrayed on the NT, actually they didn't believe in hell, they believed in gehenna, which is a manner of living in a time-out for no more than 12 months. Jesus was placed in the picture in the NT, and YHWH transferred into a more inclusive god, but with "requirements", and, a new and improved hell, to entice everyone to obey that "all in one" god of all...

And the Roman Church stepped in to mediate between the introduced Jesus of the bible, and YHWH, eventually stating that Jesus and YHWH were one in the same, as Tertullian coined the phrase trinity. The questions continued to be asked, since god was the god of all, in regard to crops, etc., etc., and there wasn't a Universal answer possible to answer everything, so priests became the intermediary and the answer providers (hence, why they despised science who thwarted their need to exist). When all the gods were separate, i.e., the sun god, the moon god, etc., etc., a person could envision how they could relate with that god, and what each individual god's requirements were, hence, predictability, and removal of anxiety in each "category" of their lives.

By creating a universal god YHWH, to compete as Supreme god with all of the other religions and belief systems, it caused "conflict". Why? Because in the OT, YHWH was "all", there was no hell, or other gods, YHWH was the one and only. The Roman Church, steps in, takes YHWH, and then with the Supreme and Only god of the Jews, finds scripture, etc., to support and introduce demi-gods into the picture again. Hence, enters Satan, Angels, etc., into the NT, to accomodate those who still held onto their mythological gods, Rome was trying to be inclusive with the NT, as they attempted to unite an empire of different religions.

In this endeavor, to unite an empire, the new hell, and everything else added created a "new" anxiety, where everyone had to turn to the Church of Rome for "guidance". This new, "original Sin", damned at birth, etc., was introduced to keep people in a constant state of "anxiety", and the Power of the Roman Church stable.

It was the "anxiety" that was created by the Roman Church, that caused a Protest, and the call for reformation as people started questioning the authority of Rome and where they founded their Absolutist powers. The "original sin", was called into question, etc., etc., and the nature of Jesus, etc., etc., until people broke away once again and formed their own belifs, taking what was already there, as had been done throughout the ages, and attempted to piece it back together to make sense for their needs. YHWH was recreated into Allah by Islams' prophet Muhammad, 300BCE and was the answer for those who had "anxiety" in their region of the world - Arabia.

Gods have been created based on the human condition, to create stability in their lives and remove uncertainty and ambiguity in life.

ANY way is better that attempts to find answers to the human condition in an effort to remove anxiety, on a consistent basis that someone can rely on in life. As opposed to "perpetuating" anxiety, and offering an intangible non-solution as the answer, i.e., only god knows the answer, etc.

I am sure there are many christians that are good people, who don't buy into the whole, everyone will burn in hell forever more thing, and they attempt to put their arms around those in need as the answer... sure, there is nothing wrong with that, but that is not exclusive to "religion", that is an act of decency well understood by many diverse people in society.

When religion is paired up with basic secular behavior. The behavior becomes overlapped, there are as many bad people in religion and religious leadership as there are in society. The difference, is that the secular aren't guided by a bible to become exclusive, which leads to bigotry. Instead of perpetuating "anxiety", via creating "uncertainty" and "ambiguity" and capitalizing on it, many attempt fervently to provide answers, real answers that can be "experienced" and "witnessed" upon, using science, etc.

If religions didn't perpetuate this "anxiety", and capitalize on this "uncertainty", by creating the "worst" of "all possible scenarios", i.e., the Ultimate Pain and Suffering in Hell, etc., using their imagination, while creating their own god solution, then... religion would cease to "exist"...

You simply say, what makes one persons' way better than any others'... the conclusive answer, is... by the way one helps the other person reach peace in their lives... creating "anxiety", and providing a solution... is not the "best" answer in my opinion... If the "anxiety", naturally manifests, as the human condition urges, due to curiosity, then guiding and teaching a person to come to terms honestly, using natural logic and reason, is the best answer...

Religion lowers the individual to a point, where they don't allow the follower to "figure out" the answers, the "answer" is already provided - god, religions must perpetuate the "questions"... Hence, why the christians who show up on this site, come from every angle imaginable... they have a desire to "establish", uncertainty and ambiguity and thus, justify their position that "everyone" is going to have "anxiety" anyway, so why not have the "christian" version of "anxiety"... and their patent "solution"...

Do all religions create this anxiety... "no"... the ones that don't are in my opinion, the more benign in society... based on that alone, I can say that there are religions and beliefs that are more positive towards humanity than others... That's what makes one persons' way, better than anothers'...

Mark: "How do you think you know there is no God. People tag Christians as being intolerant because they think they know some answers."

Again, the "answers" provided by christianity, can not be verified, or falsified, as a matter of fact, they "perpetuate" the anxiety in a persons' life... every Sunday, to ensure they don't forget the 'horrid possibilites that await them in the afterlife'...

How do I know there is no god? Define god... If you can't, its quite impossible to deny, what can't be explained in great detail... If it can't be explained in great deatil, then it thus, can't exist... If you use, information from this physical reality to describe your god, then your god has thus become a natural entity... I would suggest that the more "benign" religions, are those who can accept a more "natural" aspect of a creator... as the possibility of answering those questions that cause "anxiety", are much more tenable... Christianity exists today, because of the little black box, where no one can see the solution to the problem... and I'm not just picking on christianity, I believe any religion or organization that perpetuates anxiety, while holding some proprietary "solution", is not the best way to approach "natural" questions in life... Natural questions, deserve natural answers... Creating false needs by "ballooning" another persons' insecurities, and capitalizing on thier ignorance, in my opinion, is not beneficial to a persons' mental health...

The analogy would be; a person gets kicked in the back-end over and over for about an hour, and the second the kicking stops, the one receiving the kicks feels this overwhelming euphora of utter joy and relief... Some don't seem to focus on the "utter joy" instigated from the removal of the "kicking", some... focus on why they were being kicked to begin with... and throughout history, some did question, it sparked the Protestants to call for reconciliation and Protest against the Roman Catholic Church...

Mark: "The pressure is always on the Christians to provide some proof."

They created the "anxiety", yes... why shouldn't they "validate" the need for perpetuating the "anxiety" further, and expounding upon it, by creating "further" more imaginative "concerns"... Taking Naturally occurring questions in life, and pulling them into an unnatural state of anxiety using ones' imagination, is... well, sick... Some choose to take control of the "anxiety", and stop allowing others to capitablize on fear... If I told you the Easter Bunny was going to cut you up in little pieces (no more horrid than hell for all eternity), would you ask me how I came to that conclusion... if you accept what I say blindly and live in fear for the rest of your life because of the evil Easter Bunny, then you have allowed yourself to be duped and blinded... Still, I wouldn't consider you the problem, I would consider the perpetrator of the "lie" the problem... A lie, is making a statement of 'fact' without evidence...

Mark: "I think if we're all honest we will admit that we don't know everyting."

However, many are willing to "search" for answers in this natural univese, as opposed to accepting the continual kick in the back-end, perpetaully, with no hope of it letting up, well... until we die, and then, we can all thank goodness for dying, as the pain and suffering has ended, and we're all better off... hence, the value of peace through death, is more valuable than the peace in life...

Mark: "In fact, if we possessed a measely 1% of all the knowledge in the universe, we would be absolutely and unmatchably wise."

One would have to be omniscient to make that statement... Who is to say, we don't have 50% of all the knowledge possible in this universe at this very moment...

Mark: "But don't you think that even if you knew 1% of everthing there is to know in the universe, there would be some chance in all that 99% of knowledge that there is a God."

Again, a person can't logically use a Natural piece of knowledge, to assert that a transcendent god exists... Perhaps, you aren't familiar with the term transcendent...

Transcendent: "Beyond and outside the ordinary range of human experience or understanding; "philosophers...often explicitly reject the notion of any transcendent reality beyond thought...and claim to be concerned only with thought itself..."

wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

If knowledge of this Natural Universe led to the belief in a god, it would Naturally lead to the belief of a Natural god... not a SuperNatural god transcendent in an alternate reality... Believe it or not, christians believe in a transcendent "god", as "god" can't be of this world... and this world is part of the Natural Universe... Hence, the need for multiple reality, to include a small corner of reality for "hell", which in theory is also transcendent... but, we get visitation from the landlord of hell thanks to god according to the christian tradition...

Mark: "If you're honest, you'd have to say there's a chance. And I think if you'll look around you, you'll see evidence that there is a God."

If I see evidence of a creator, at a maximum, I will conclude a Natural creator, without personality... waves create ripples in the sand in intricate patterns, does that make the ocean... complex and intelligent...

Mark: "You don't look at your watch and suppose all those pieces pulled together by chance do you?"

In order to have chance, there has to at least be "one" example of a possibility, using some "experience", or some level of "knowledge"... That isn't possible using a transcendent "god"... therefore, the probability is "zero", based on "no" evidence... Unless you are suggesting that your "god" is of this world, like many other religions over the past few thousand years have asserted, and in our everyday presence...

Mark: "No, you know your watch had a designer. You know your car in all it's complexities had to have a designer and maker. Our brains are more complex than any computer in the world."

However, our brains were not created over night... complexity must take into account time and change, adaptation, etc... Would it be more amazing to say I put a complex watch together using the Natural elements of this universe in one minute... or... based on time, and trial and error, over a thousand year period, I finally created a sun dial... Kinda' reduces my "intelligence", to mere "perseverance"... Nature seems to persevere, with or without us, and it is a drive many are born with...

Mark: "They must have had a designer. The vast universe that scientists probably haven't even scratched the surface of understanding, surely had an intelligent designer."

Still... does this creator reside in this Natural Universe, or in a transcendent reality... Just because one can conclude there is a natural designer on the loose running around this vast universe, doesn't logical prove that there is a "transcendent" creator, in an alternate and "by definition", Unknowable reality...

Mark: "I personally believe this God loved us even in our failure to love him, and he came and suffered his own wrath in our place to make a way for us to see him for who he is and to be saved forever."

The transcendet god YWHW, was brought to this earth via Rome, and named Jesus, who established through his rebellious nature the end of the OT laws, and then, committed suicide so that he could go back to his transcendent reality... However, isn't it peculiar that we can't have "knowledge" of a transcendent "reality", and thus, validate that Jesus "came" from a transcendent reality, or... that he returned to a transcendent reality... Transcendent realities are great for "shutting" down those with questions, its an answer that can't be proven nor falsified, and is the solution of choice for those who want to perpetuate "anxiety"...

Mark: "Don't blame God for the failures and stupidity of people who have done evil things in his name. Look at Jesus for the model of perfection rather than people, many of whom never even knew him."

Jesus, didn't keep the Sabbath, and was a rebel, who got angry, frustrated, played politician, etc., according to tradition and the bible... If I wanted to be like Jesus, per the biblical description... I would be anti-authoritative, belligerant and against all; exclusive, restrictive, and oppressive belief systems or organizations who perpetuate "fear", via "anxiety", by instilling and exploiting the "uncertainty" and "ambiguity" that is Natural to the human condition...

Hence, I suspect the character Jesus' role (per Paul), as was Romes' initial goal (Constantine I), was to tear down the barriers of "exclusivity", that created separation, and undue suffering between all the rivaling religions of the empire... Its a shame that Paul taught the "good news" of salvation for everyone, and then, over time, the "bad news" was added. Uh, the bad news being, that only those who worship Jesus, and meet all the requirements per the First Council of Nicaea, and all of the ongoing synods wouldn't be "saved", once again, transitioning from an initial Jewish "exclusive" religion, to Paul's want to an "inclusive" religion, back to Rome's "exclusive" religion via the NT finally canonized ~367CE, after the First Council of Nicaea ~325CE, where it has remained, even through the Protestant era, and Reformation eras...

Mark, the manner in which many christians define a "true" christian... in effect, would make "Jesus", the first true ex-tian... There were sects that followed the humanity of the role model Jesus, however, thanks to Rome, they were persecuted, and left to soak into the fold, you can thank the Roman Catholic Church for that one...

You can't remove historical evidence, and you can't rearrange the letters in the bible, to distill the "exclusivity" placed there by those who canonized the bible... however... you can take the high ground, and attempt to fight for inclusiveness and compassion, which was what Paul apparently attempted to do (using situational ethics)...

If you fight against exclusivity, you will find, that you can't associate yourself with most "all" religion, as it by its sheer nature, creates exclusivity by doctrine - the KJV bible for example... Hence, the problem many have with christianity, but, for me, I se all exclusive "religion" and any form of oppression, as a whole, a stain on humanity...

Anonymous said...

Hi Dave8,

Thoughtful, complete, and kind. Sadly, I have a feeling that Pastor Denny, Mark and all of the other Anonymous visitors / lurkers have moved on and will not be checking back to see the fruit of their labor.

Anonymous said...

Anon: "...the god has changed from El in the northern kingdom of Judah, to YHWH, in the souther kingdom of Judah..."

Is that why 'christmas' is now also known as "No El"...?

Carol: "'...keep on keepin' on-raise up in the name of the lard.'

What a cool and hip pastor! Bet he recites prayer to hip-hop music during services."

Sounds like that Brady Bunch song from their movie remake, "Keep on, keep on, keep on, keepin' on..."
That'd probably make him the 'big man on campus'.
(Wow, now the word 'keep' looks weird.)

"Do you smell that?"

Yeah, it smells like bullshit.
Man who really gets the 'chills' from contrived crap like this?
How feeble and sappy are these people?
That was worse than the "Footprints in the Sand" dribble.
Geeeez.

Anonymous said...

Hey Bob, I agree, but many times I post to make me think through the issues. It helps me grow :-) Every post makes me more free from any unnatural anxiety, and it may help someone else in the process. Anytime we can remove "anxiety", perpetuated by a word peddler, the better off humanity will be ;-) Take it easy...

Anonymous said...

Hello SpaceMonk, yes, NoEl, does make one wonder ;-) I suppose we should look at the etymology of the word and see who came up with that cute little word...

"Noel - c.1390, from M.E. nowel, from O.Fr. noel "the Christmas season," var. of nael, from L. natalis (dies) "birth (day)," in Eccles. L. in reference to the birthday of Christ, from natus, pp. of nasci "be born."
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=n&p=6

"Christmas is called Noel in France, which is why "Joyeux Noel" is the season's greeting in French. The word "noel" may come from "les bonnes nouvelles", meaning "the good news" (gospel is Greek for "good news"). (The "First Noel" was the proclamation of the news of Christ's birth.) In France children put their shoes in front of the fireplace so Pere Noel (Father Christmas) can fill them with gifts. Adults exchange gifts on New Year's Day."
http://www.benbest.com/history/xmas.html

Northern Judah worship of El, between 2500BCE-700CE

Matthew and the birth of Jesus, written ~60CE-85CE "Good News"

Southern Judah worship of YHWH, between 1200BCE-Present

"Unable to accept as historical the narratives of Our Lord's birth in Bethlehem of Juda, these scholars would place the Nativity in Bethlehem of Zabulon, referred to in the Talmud (Megilla, 70, a) as Bethlehem seriyyah, which is regarded as equivalent to noseryyah, i.e. Bethlehem of Nazareth (of Galilee), a certainly remarkable combination of two names so well known from the Gospels (Réville, Jésus de Nazareth, 2nd ed., Paris, 1906, I, 360)."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02533a.htm

"In the bible it is called "Bethlehem of Judah" (belonging to the tribe of Judah), to distinguish it from the other Bethlehem, which was in the North in the territory of the Zebulon."
http://holylandnetwork.com/bethlehem/bethlehem.htm

The Catholic tradition, pushes the birth of Jesus as occurring in Southern Judah... This means Jesus was born in the area, where YHWH was still worshipped as the Supreme Creator God... Thus, one can only surmize, that those who continually fought over the birth place of Jesus, as being from the Northern or Southern tribes of Judah, may have in fact, established this in "song", using the "good news", of Jesus birth, as having "No El"...

It appears, the word "NoEl" didn't exist until much later on in history, and during debate over the life (birth) and nature of Jesus, obviously France was deeply involved in the matter...

It appears the church authority, in France, pushed for a Jesus birth in Southern Judah, and as the Catholic tradition... created a meaningful way to pass their doctrine... catechisms via song...

Seems France (Catholic Religion), got to have more than "one" Noel, that became useful for their cause... a few hundred years later, as they attempted to "spread" their dogma all over the world...

"Noel Chabanel was born in France on February 2, 1613. The youngest of four children, Noel entered the Jesuit Order in 1630 at the age of seventeen. In 1641, he was captivated by the dream of becoming a missionary in New France (Canada) and working among the Indians."

"When Isaac Jogues, the leader of the Jesuit missionaries, known to the Indians as the "Black Robes," was slain in 1647, Noel was offered the choice of returning to France. He resisted the temptation and made a vow to God in 1647 to remain with the Indians until his death, despite his personal aversions to them and their life style. Only two years later, Noel's "bloodless" martyrdom became the real thing when he was murdered by an apostate Huron Indian on December 8, 1649. His body was thrown into the Nottawasaga River and was never recovered."
http://www.stnoel.org/about/about.html

It appears that some Indians didn't like the "anxiety", being pushed onto them, and they had a little resentment... Perhaps Noel should have written a few songs (religious doctrine embedded), and got the Indians to sing the songs, during feasts... so that subconsciously they'd mindlessly accept and memorize the doctrine like religious catechisms... If the songs are sung for just one day, then the religious could claim that its a "tradition", and not really a "religiously" embedded song ;-)

I don't believe Jesus was the "First Noel" per religious reference, belief, and doctrine, but darn if I don't run the little tune in my mind during the holidays... Such is the power of music and long term memory... The best we can do... is know exactly why that ilttle tune exists, and historically where it came from... I refuse to sing it out in public, as I don't feel the need to perpetuate musical catechims, created during the middle ages...

Well, so much for the history lesson on NoEl... Take care SpaceMonk...

Anonymous said...

Well, the Jesus figure at birth, was supposeded to promote to first "No El" sponsor... according to religious tradition...

Perhaps, we can correct the musical catechisms by replacing the words to make them more accurate...

How about... "The Billionth NoEl"...

And, how about "We wish you a Merry Christmas" becoming... "We wish you a merry solstice"...

Lest we not forget to add; "Oh come all ye' faithless..." to the hit list...

We can sing that for a few days, and then call it tradition also ;-)

Anonymous said...

Dave8,

"Keep on Keeping on". Thanks for your contributions! I am sure it is cathartic and it gives the rest of us great resources. Thanks for taking the time to do the research. It is ironic that, though they do not check back to discover the result of their posts, we just get better informed and stronger!!!

"Go tell it on the mountain" takes on new (modern) meaning.

Anonymous said...

Hey Bob, yep, seems once research and history hit the table, many christians leave or stop responding. Many of them are just trying to make sense of their own beliefs, and some even attempt to take the religion they have, and recreate it into something totally different and appealing. Its why there is over over "1,000 Christian faith groups in North America:"

"Divided Christianity:
According to David Barrett et al, editors of the "World Christian Encyclopedia: A comparative survey of churches and religions - AD 30 to 2200," there are 34,000 separate Christian groups in the world today. "Over half of them are independent churches that are not interested in linking with the big denominations." 1"

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_divi.htm

And they keep creating more, and more, and more. An endless spiral, as "anxiety" in society increases, and churches (essentially free), promote some "relief", and social atmosphere. I am sure there are a few that have visited this site, that are in the business of opening up their own party house, a newer and better one. Its all supply-demand, the economy perpetuates a lot of the "anxiety", and "education" becomes part of the one-two punch ;-) Take care...

Luci said...

This is for Anonymous who wrote " but I don't pressure people to become Christian, because it's not the right thing to do."
What the hell are you doing on an ex-christian website then arguing with ex-christians if you're not trying to influence and pressure us? Im sure there are plenty of christian sites out there for you.
Luci

Luci said...

Hi,
To the person who posted that story about the girl with Cystic Fibrosis surviving against what the doctor said.
Doctors get things wron alot. Just because the doctor made the wrong medical judgement why does that mean that it was God who made the girl pull through?
Are you saying that there aren't atheists who beat these kinds of odds? What about all the christians who pray to God to keep their loved one alive and then their loved one dies.
If God was responsible for keeping that girl alive etc why doesnt he answer all christians' prayers and why would he help atheists etc if they haven't prayed to him?
when I asked this of my ex who was a christian he said bad things only happen to atheists ro people who dont pray!!
Also, why did God give that girl Cystic Fibrosis in the first place? Let me guess..he miraculously healed the girl to intensify her parents' faith in him??
How convenient is it that God only helps those who help themselves. In other words the people are helping themselves so God doesnt help them. God wont need to help anyone because he only helps those who help themselves.Since people help themselves they wont need Gods help anymore.
Have any christians out there answered the question as to why god requires worship and punishes people who dont worship him. That sounds alot like a dictator to me. Does that sound like Hitler or Mao etc to anyone else?
Caring humans who do good deeds for other people get their reward from the help they give those people not from acknowledgment and praise...ok some do..like some of those Hollywood people who may do it for publicity.
Luci

Perry said...

Pastor Denny said
"I serve a living God . . . "


Really? A "living" god?

Denny, do you have a street address?
A phone number? An e-mail address?
Does he collect tithes/pay taxes?

'In your heart-type' answers just show
a lack of basic medical knowledge.
Here's a few dictionary definitions for you:

1) The condition of living or the state of being alive

2) People who are still living

3) Have life, be alive

4) Pertaining to living persons.

So, Denny, where does he/she/it live?

Anonymous said...

Hi Pastor Denny,
I was excited to see your post, because I don't find many people here from the Church of God (Anderson, IN). That's the denomination that I used to attend (note I said "used to"). I checked out your church website, and then used the church finder at chog.org, which is where I found out you were of the same background as I. Well, Pastor Denny, I, too, at one time thought that Christianity was not a religion, but a relationship, all about love, grace and everything warm and fuzzy. NOT! The entire system is built on lies and illusions; the people are the same as, or often worse than (self-righteous comes to mind) everyone out in the so-called "world"; money is plucked from your pocket for the church in the name of Jesus...it's one big house of cards that is in desperate need of a big wind.

To the rest of the folks here: believe me when I say this denomination is no different than others of the fundamentalist/evangelical persuasion. The roots of the Church of God are very cultic; they thought they were the "True Church" following the New Testament example; they felt that even the other Christian churches were false; they had strict rules on how to dress and where you could go (nothing "worldly" you know); often they used to teach the use of faith instead of doctors/medicine, etc. Yes, it's true that the majority of COG members don't follow such strict practices any more, but I think that if the roots are bad, the fruit you get now is just as bad. This church is solidly evangelical conservative, for all their talk of "love", it's the same old "belief=heaven, non-belief=hell" teaching. Pastor Denny is probably going to share in his Sunday sermon how he found us poor ex-christians, and that he witnessed to us about the love of Jesus, and what Christianity really is, and then the entire congregation will pray for our sick, sinning souls.

Hey, Pastor Denny, are you reading this? Where did you go? Helloooooooo...are you out there?

I also agree with Luci when she said, "This is for Anonymous who wrote " but I don't pressure people to become Christian, because it's not the right thing to do."
What the hell are you doing on an ex-christian website then arguing with ex-christians if you're not trying to influence and pressure us? Im sure there are plenty of christian sites out there for you." That's exactly what I thought!

Anonymous said...

Thanks Dave8, for that bit of research. You're quite prolific in that area. :)

"Perhaps, we can correct the musical catechisms by replacing the words to make them more accurate...

How about... "The Billionth NoEl"...

And, how about "We wish you a Merry Christmas" becoming... "We wish you a merry solstice"... "


I like the old, "Bah, Humbug!" myself...

Anonymous said...

Hey SpaceMonk, I'm sort of a Bah, Humbug myself, but I'd be doing it for spite, perhaps it would spark up a conversation and people would ask questions about what they had been singing for their entire life :-) Take it easy...

Anonymous said...

Hey Luci,

You Said: "To the person who posted that story about the girl with Cystic Fibrosis surviving against what the doctor said."

Without reading back through all of the posts here, are you referring to the "Dana Lu Blessing" (the premature baby who was prone to Cerebal Palsy) piece that I posted? Pardon me for being lazy if you are not...

If you are: Dana Lu Blessing? I tried to debunk this one myself. All of the search engines just bring me to copies of the original story - hundreds to thousands of people have posted this story on their personal websites. BTW, they were all similiar in form to my story - not, I Repeat NOT, an actual news report. Dana Lu Blessing? I smell a turd. The christian right like to take "license" with stories - kinda like Oliver Stone with his movie "JFK". Well, it COULD have happened that way. They tried that one with the Santa Claus story and the story of Jesus Christ...

Anyone find any facts about Dana Lu Blessing?

Anonymous said...

Dana Lu Blessing? Never heard of her... However, I don't need to dig that stat up...

"Of the 4 million infants born annually in the United States, about 3 to 5 percent are born with birth defects, according to the March of Dimes. Birth defects account for 20 percent of all infant deaths in the United States, more than from any other single cause."
http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/996_bd.html

If someone wants to claim that god has his paws in the saving of a child. Then Zeus gets all the glory for all of the horrid birth defects and suffering that occur every minuts on this earth. Miracle? You want to have a miracle, the Steelers just beat the Colts, that's a miracle.

Man-kind has the ability to genetically remove destructive genetic markers, and are moving closer to cognitive/mental mapping in order to correct anomalies in nature. Its a bio-ethics issue. However, who cares, the fact is, that if the religious mythicists are claiming that genetic reversal/modification is the "tag" for a divine act... Then, we have a large population of gods running around in biology labs all over the world with that same capability.

Anonymous said...

Snopes.com says that the Dana Lu email is based on a true story. Of course, that doesn't mean that it's proof that God smells like rain, or that it was God that pulled the little girl through. http://www.snopes.com/glurge/rain.htm

Anonymous said...

I think I know what the little girl was smelling, go to:

http://www.snuggle.com/product/product_freshrain.asp

If we were the Myth-Busters, could we call this myth: "Busted!"?

muttmutt1978 said...

blame everything on GOd?well if you read the bible the jealousy wrath vindictiveness youd see why we whould. well youre nto convincing anyone and by evangelizing youve become annoying. as far as im concerned if theres a hell the christians go there. bye for now. bria

Anonymous said...

Hello Pastor Denny....

Come on, it has been almost a week - you still haven't come by to check on your post? Tell us that you did not have your church say a prayer for us. Tell us that you didn't warn your parishioners to be wary of sites like these, that visiting here would expose them to satan's temptations. Tell us that you didn't tell your flock that they need to "tighten-up" their "internet-nanny" settings so that they (and their children) will be blocked from evil sites like this. Do you tell them that we are just as dangerous as those awfull pornography sites? Tell us that you did not request a special collection so that you can expand your ministry so that you can preach to everyone here who has fallen away. Did you and Mark come by, drop your little turd and run away? Hit and run... A "drive-by" preaching...?

Anonymous said...

Was someone praying for me over the weekend? Funny, I didn't feel a damned thing !!

Anonymous said...

I saw Jesus in the toilet this morning, someone must have prayed its a miracle.

Anonymous said...

I felt a little indigestion this weekend. But, it could have just been the hangover.

Anonymous said...

Some of your arguments, once you get past the spewing hate, seem to make sense...until I am reminded of what atheists have always done when they had the power.

Imprisonment, torture, brainwashing, extermination.

I don't doubt for a minute what many of you would do to me if you got the chance.

That is why I will campaign against any and all atheist programs, organizations and political action groups.

No atheist is fit for political office.

In my opinion.

Anonymous said...

Emanuel Goldstein II wrote:

"Some of your arguments, once you get past the spewing hate, seem to make sense...until I am reminded of what atheists have always done when they had the power.

Imprisonment, torture, brainwashing, extermination."


I think you are confused you silly little moron. RELIGION through out history has been the cause of all the torture hate etc. Try and read some history.

The idiot wrote on:

"I don't doubt for a minute what many of you would do to me if you got the chance."

You mean like letting you post your ridiculous assertions? Why don't you give me the Xtian website I can go to post my beliefs? Oh that's right there are NONE. Why? Because the religious only allow their point of view. That is of course when they are not busy burning books or bombing women's clinics.

Why don't you slither back into your hole. Live your silly little myth. I feel sorry for you really.

Onanite

Anonymous said...

Hey, Manual Goldstain II, can you provide some names of Atheists who have imprisoned, tortured, used brainwashing, and exterminated people while holding some prominent political office.

Anonymous said...

Emanuel Goldstein II said:
Some of your arguments, once you get past the spewing hate, seem to make sense...until I am reminded of what atheists have always done when they had the power.

Imprisonment, torture, brainwashing, extermination.

I'm not sure I follow. There are very famous examples of each of these acts being perpetrated in the name of religion. Christianity, to be quite obvious, is guilty of all of the above. The Crusades, heretic burnings, the Inquisitions, the witch hunts, Indian massacres, the Holocaust.... These crimes were all carried out by people who felt religiously justified in what they were doing. There are actual quotes from persons living during these instances that describe in particular the biblical justification for committing these atrocities, chapter and verse. In case you were born on or after 9/12/2001, I'll tell you that religions encourage heinous acts. But atheism? Perhaps you're thinking of communism, or some government of history that has actively suppressed religion. ANY governmental influence on religious affairs, whether pro or against, is detrimental to personal rights. You provide no basis for what you've stated.

I don't doubt for a minute what many of you would do to me if you got the chance.

Nothing?

That is why I will campaign against any and all atheist programs, organizations and political action groups.

So not only do you think the boogeyman is out to get you...you're taking it to the streets? Geesh. Why not just get a bumper sticker and go about your day like a normal person?

No atheist is fit for political office.

Although there is no certain way of knowing what the actual personal beliefs are of most politicians (because they're all out to please), you really don't have any objective means to form an opinion about that. There never has been an openly atheistic person to hold a prominent political office, let alone one who has proven himself incompetent. Care to back that statement up? You're on a roll!

In my opinion.

Is this your disclaimer?

Jim Arvo said...

Emanuel Goldstein II: "I don't doubt for a minute what many of you would do to me if you got the chance."

I'd urge you to seek counseling. You've been posting the same paranoid claptrap for as long as I've been hanging around here. Always the same vitriol; always the same vacuous arguments. You need some help.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

"Stalin (1879-1953) was the product of a seminary, and learned its lessons of manipulation and mind control well. He knew that the best way to stifle dissent and to break the will of the people was to deprive them of that which they value the most. Religion, being so important to the lives of the Russian people, was the perfect target. By depriving the people of the crutch of religion, he knew he could crush their spirit.

There are no elements of freethought (the foundation of atheism) in Soviet philosophy. Stalin most certainly was unfamiliar with the humanistic underpinnings of atheism; they contradicted his goal, which was to create a totalitarian state in which he became the new god, whose dictates were not to be questioned. Individual rights, so central to freethought, were unknown in Soviet Russia.

The massacres of Stalin's reign were committed in the name of statism, not atheism, and statism is a by-product of the fundamentalist religious mindset."

"In their attempt to demonize atheism, many church leaders to this day insist on equating atheism with communism. This tactic, which originated during Sen. Joseph McCarthy's anti-communist hysteria, is as nonfactual today as it was then. Just because one is an atheist, it does not follow that one is a communist. Mark Twain, Thomas Edison, Luther Burbank, Katherine Hepburn and countless others are known to be atheists, yet no one would call them communists."

http://www.atheistalliance.org/library/nelson-atheism_communism.html

Anonymous said...

Emanuel Goldstein II said...
"Some of your arguments, once you get past the spewing hate, seem to make sense..."

When neo-cons have nothing to say they call us "haters", just like when they troll the liberal blogs. That is because they don't bother researching anything for themselves. It's easier to regurgatate. Pardon me, "Sppeeewwww... Hater, Hater, Hater"

"...until I am reminded of what atheists have always done when they had the power.

Imprisonment, torture, brainwashing, extermination."

Pardon me, [raaalph, buuuiiick] "Communist, Communist, Communist"

"I don't doubt for a minute what many of you would do to me if you got the chance."

For one, I would have you sit down, shut the F___ up and carefully examine the crap that you are regurgatating. Use your brain for just a half hour. Open your mind. Don't be intellectually lazy - like your king. Really consider, for a minute, that christianity if a myth that has been perpetrated on every culture as a method of controlling the masses and has killed millions of people in the name of christ.

"That is why I will campaign against any and all atheist programs, organizations and political action groups.

No atheist is fit for political office."

Jack Abramoff (okay, he's a lobbyist - but he is sure taking some neo-con congressmen with him, hehehe), Tom Delay, Pat Robertson (he has run for office), King George, Dick (I don't work for Haliburton) Cheney, Randy "Duke" Cunningham, enough already.

I say that NO christian is fit for office, especially the ones trying to turn us into a theocracy, Brownstain.

Hey everyone, "another drive-by preachin'"

Anonymous said...

"Vladimir Ilich Ulyanov, aka Lenin

Researcher Wayne McGuire of Harvard University writes: "Lenin was a Jew by the standards of Israel's Law of Return: he possessed a Jewish grandparent. It would seem that not only was Lenin a Jew, but that he was a Jewish racist and chauvinist, although he kept his ideas on this volatile subject far in the background, probably because they were in radical conflict with the supposed universalism of Marxism. ...Lenin was a Jewish racist who deliberately gave Jews especially, the most 'intellectually demanding tasks.' He admitted that 50% of the communist terrorist vanguard in the south and west of Russia was comprised of Jews."

"A "bolshevist" was a jew, as were Trotsky and Lenin, but Stalin was a Christian who tried, convicted, and executed many of the "bolshevists" [read: jews]. If we had even the slightest idea of the terror that the jews unleashed on this once-Christian nation, we would realize that Stalin exercised considerable restraint in his treatment of the perpetrators (one of who's "accomplishments" was to ban spoken Christian prayers in public schools, and another was to outlaw Christian churches). Stalin is the man who restored school prayer and *almost* restored Christian churches, but it wasn't until Glasnost in 1991 that Christian churches were finally dusted off and treated with the respect they deserve."
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?idxref=367375

"Bolsheviks led by Vladimir Lenin seized power in Russia in 1917, an event known as the October Revolution.

Shortly after seizing power, the party changed their name to the All-Russian Communist Party (Bolsheviks) in 1918 and were generally known as the Communist Party after that point. However, it was not until 1952 that the party formally dropped the word "Bolshevik" from its name. (See Congress of the CPSU article for the timeline of name changes.)

The word "Bolshevik" is sometimes used as a synonym of Communist. It was often used by right-wingers outside the Soviet Union as a derogatory term for left-wingers, not all of whom were necessarily Communists. The Bolshevik political platform has often been referred to as Bolshevism.

Leon Trotsky frequently used the terms "Bolshevism" and "Bolshevist" after his exile from the Soviet Union to differentiate between what he saw as true Leninism and the regime within the state and the party which arose under Stalin. However, "Bolshevism" today is commonly associated with the ruthless regime which existed in the Soviet Union, and the millions of deaths for which it was responsible."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolshevist_Russia.

Hey, Goldstain, it appears Lenin and Trotsky were Jews. I'll accept that they were Jews, first, and then they personified their beliefs through political action.

Anonymous said...

BTW, "christian" Brownstain, my congressman is a Unitarian Universalist. Go ahead, take a minute, check it out. That's right not a "christian" faith. That would make him an atheist in your book, right? You might even find some "buddhist" congressman - also an atheist to you? Joe Lieberman is a Jew - also an atheist??? You might be a Jew (Goldstein), although I really doubt it. I have a feeling that you probably consider yourself a "Jew for Jesus". My congressman is an outstanding progressive (liberal) Democrat. I love him, I think he is great - above reproach. He's been a Congressman for many decades. You better run... the atheist are going to getya.

Another drive-by Preacher.

Anonymous said...

"I don't doubt for a minute what many of you would do to me if you got the chance."

Yeah! Grrr!
I will hunt you to the depths of the sea!
I'll plunge my feet in your blood,
while the tongues of my dogs have their share!

I will drench the land with your flowing blood all the way to the mountains, and the ravines will be strewn with your flesh!

Whoah, sorry, flashbacks to bible days there, my apologies...

(Psalm 68:22-23 & Ezekiel 32:6)

Anonymous said...

But, guys, what if there is a God? What if He really did make us? What would that mean? How can we be so sure that the whole complex universe just happened by chance? Most of these posts just sound angry and slanderous, which I guess that is what people can expect, because there's no reason to be good if there isn't a God, we can all just do whatever we want because we're not accountable to Him and there's no Heaven or Hell to deal with. What if we all die and find out that atheism was the wrong thing to believe in? What if there is a Hell? What if people really do go there and pay for what they did to disobey God? If there is a God, and if He did make us, can't He do anything He wants to do? Is that what we're scared of? If God really did make us, isn't He more powerful than us? Can't He make up all the rules? Maybe we're all too good at making hasty decisions here and completely ruling God out so quick- maybe it's not a good idea. Don't you ever wonder these things? What if there's evil in the world because man disobeys God- what if God has a plan we don't understand? Can these things possibly be true? What if those nasty Christians you speak of are just struggling with sinning like most people- maybe they're just not perfect- maybe they're humans too. Is there room in our hearts and in our minds to consider that maybe we don't have all the answers?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous wrote:

" But, guys, what if there is a God? .... blah blah HELL, etc. (same old thing)"

I guess there is no giving up with these people. It is truly remarkable to me that they float in and do the SAME drive by post all the time. Maybe it is just one or two of the same people over and over again. Sure seems that way.

Just makes me laugh.

Onanite

Anonymous said...

anonymous (wow, what a surprise!) said:

But, guys, what if there is a God? What if He really did make us? What would that mean?....etc. etc.

There's only one actual statement in this post.

Most of these posts just sound angry and slanderous, which I guess that is what people can expect, because there's no reason to be good if there isn't a God, we can all just do whatever we want because we're not accountable to Him and there's no Heaven or Hell to deal with.

Since this is the poster's only real statement, I'll address this and leave the begging-the-answer questions for Josh McDowell to "tackle". Here's some questions for you, Mr. anonymous #576.

Is your belief in the possibility of eternal punishment from God the only reason that you treat another person with respect? Is that the only thing keeping you from drowning your children in the bathtub, or pushing your neighbor in front of a train? If you found out there was no god and your religion is false, would you start stealing and setting fire to people's houses? At the very least, would you suddenly begin treating people WORSE than you would have them treat you?

You've done nothing more than to provide evidence that atheists and non-believers in general have a more deeply embedded sense of morality than Christians whose only reason to BE moral is that they're afraid of the hell in their heads.

Anonymous said...

Emanuel Goldstein II: "I don't doubt for a minute what many of you would do to me if you got the chance."

Don't project your hatred & ignorance onto us.

Anonymous said...

Anonymouse: "If God really did make us, isn't He more powerful than us? Can't He make up all the rules?"

Him being being more powerful is irrelevant. That would only make him more responsible, not less.

...and rules are for games.
As you say, they're all made up...

"Is there room in our hearts and in our minds to consider that maybe we don't have all the answers?"

Hey? Are you Agnostic now?

Anonymous said...

Hey. My Goddess told me to tell you their is a God. And we do like respect, just as you do. So don't tell me my Wiccan ways are no religon.

Blessed Be,
Lemming

Anonymous said...

"But Christianity doesn't work."

Oh Really? Well I'd say the brutal regimes from the Roman Empire to Stalinist Russia don't work...and as for those who tried to kill the Truth...the Truth yet marches! Glory to GOD
bc

Anonymous said...

Stalin attended seminary, and the Roman Empire forced one out of a dozen flavors of christianity on their citizens and the lies live on, in the New Testament. Glory to Constantine, and the much anonymous writings of the New Testament.

"1894 - June J. V. Stalin graduates from the Gori school with highest marks. September 2 J. V. Stalin enters first grade of the Tiflis Theological Seminary."
http://www.stel.ru/stalin/young_joseph_1879-1904.htm

Okay, you said you were going to go pray, go do a Stalin and go study some scripture and pray.

Anonymous said...

Buck Cronkite,
Lurking and trolling on an ex-Christian website, pretending to be a Christian, while all the time exhibiting the opposite character of what a Christian is supposed to be, doesn't work either, Hyman, or Emanuel, or whoever you are!

Anonymous said...

"Glory to GOD"

Hey, I like this guy.
Here, O good and faithful servant, let me pat you on the head.
Have an extra cookie than everyone else, and some extra gold for your mansion in heaven.
Matter of fact this guy is going to sit at my right hand, that way it won't be so far for him to go to lick my boots for the rest of eternity.
I know he'll love that - or burn.

Anonymous said...

Wow!
Hey guys and gals. There is a heaven and there is a hell. There is no middle ground.. You and I are not ignorant, we know that we have to make a choice. It’s one or the other. Heaven is Godly, hell is satanic. There is no other way. You cannot be a middle of the road type, because the middle of the road does not exist.

To the passing reader of this website, such as myself, it is seemingly evident that you have forsaken the Godly for the satanic. But maybe, I’m wrong, maybe you guys and gals think that you have made the choice to give up Christianity because of the nutty religiosity with which we are constantly bombarded. Hey, I agree with you on that point, nutty religiosity is all around us but so is the Word of God. You are intelligent enough to discern the truth of God’s Word, so why don’t you.

He warns you over and over about nutty religiosity (my words, not His, but the meaning is the same) of which, by reading your posts, you have recognized. Why don’t you act on it instead of giving in to it. I say that because you seem to be using it as an excuse to escape truth instead of learning the truth of God’s Word. C’mon, you guys and gals cannot possibly be that mentally weak.

I was web surfing when I ran across this site and I was intrigued by all of your comments, but I tell you, I stand with Pastor Gibbons. I will probably not come back to this website but I did want to leave you a message, which I have.

Take care,
Tom

Jim Arvo said...

Tom, I'm sorry to have to put it this way, but you are astonishingly naive. Let's look at the ridiculous straw man that you've created: You see us as having "given up" on a "Godly" path to heaven because we don't like various aspects of "religion", thereby "choosing" a path to Hell and Satan. Is that about right?

Let me see if I can make my point this way. Have you given up on the heaven that Allah has created for his followers, choosing a path to the Islamic Hell instead? (Incidentally, the Islamic version of Hell sounds much worse than the Christian version of Hell, so I'd look that decision over very carefully if I were you!) Similarly, one might ask if you've given up on achieving nirvana through the teaching of the compassionate Buddha, choosing instead to live an infinite sequence of unfulfilled lives.

You and every religionist on the face of the planet can accuse adherents of EVERY other religion of naively choosing the wrong path. Do you see that? If not, please stop to contemplate that for a moment. EVERY religionist thinks that THEIR theology is the correct one. That includes you.

But... you will agree with me, I hope, that millions upon millions of believers are WRONG in this assumption. Now, please explain to me what makes YOU right, while all the others are wrong. (That's actually a rhetorical question, since we probably already know every single argument you can marshal, and we've already concluded that they are all fallacious. Thus, we place you in exactly the same category as all the others.)

Good day.

Anonymous said...

Wow,
Hey Tom, hate to break it to you, but you are obviously the one practicing inhumane/evil worship. So, your holy book states, your own god sacrificed his own flesh and blood, by promoting a plan to have him pierced through with spikes and hung on a wooden post, and allowed to die in pain. Your god, being omnipotent, has committed more mass murder than any other god throughout history, according to your bible.

Tom, keep your bloody and vengeful god to yourself. If Jessus was to come to earth and pass the word of god, and set up "The True Church", then your god is also incompetent, as there isn't a True church that can be discerned from the thousands upon thousands on this earth. And, as far as a true Religion, what makes you believe you have the right one. There are literlly thousands upon thousands of those based on the slightly different teachings of each denomination within christianity alone. If your god was a little more compassionate, he/she/it could have passed on the message without having to enforce mass murder, killing his own son, tempting fathers to kill their own child on a stone alter, etc., etc.

Tom, I want you to define Satan and what Satan wants, and how he conducts business. Then, I will pull out your bible, and show you exactly where your god performed whatever evil you state aligns with a Satan. I'd say I'd pray for your mental awakening, but perhaps you are too far gone to be able to read the bible and think critically, let me just say, you have my condolences on your lost mind.

Anonymous said...

Boys,
You are going to have to search it out for yourselves and do it before it is too late, ok. My defination of satan, you are my defination of satan, clear enough.
Tom

webmdave said...

And Tom, to the Islamic Fundie, you are Satan.

Whatever, it's all pretend anyway.

Jim Arvo said...

Tom, you are going to have to open your eyes on your own. We can put information in front of you, but you are the one who must decide to engage your brain and check things out. I strongly suspect that you never will, however, given your attitude thus far. That's your choice. Bye now.

Anonymous said...

Sorry boys,
You are evidently educated, get off your complacent butts and truly discover the position that you are in. Surely, you are not so foolish as to think that you have chosen the correct fork in the road.

You also know that God is a loving God, but He is also a powerful and vengeful God. He can and will punish but that should not be a surprise to you. Hey, you can laugh and make light of these few posts, but that is no bother. In the end you guys and gals are gonna have to pony up whether you believe it or not.

Take care,
Tom.

Jim Arvo said...

Tom, I'm trying to decide whether your chief attribute is arrogance or ignorance. It's a tough one. My guess is ignorance, but I could easily be wrong. Keep posting here and maybe we'll be able to tell.

(Tom gets my vote for fundy of the day.)

Jim Arvo said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Tom Martin said:
"To the passing reader of this website, such as myself, it is seemingly evident that you have forsaken the Godly for the satanic. But maybe, I'm wrong, maybe you guys and gals think that you have made the choice to give up Christianity because of the nutty religiosity with which we are constantly bombarded. Hey, I agree with you on that point, nutty religiosity is all around us but so is the Word of God. You are intelligent enough to discern the truth of God’s Word, so why don't you"

The reason you know so much about "nutty religiosity," Tom, is that you personify nutty religiosity, you write nutty religiosity, you think nutty religiosity, you are nutty religiosity.

If you don't change "Boy" you won't burn in a lake of fire for ever and ever, but you will lose what life you have left on this plant to "NUTTY RELIGIOSITY"
Dan (Rationalist)

Anonymous said...

Guys and Gals,
In regard to our fates, you have opened yourselves up to me and I have opened myself up to you. There is not much more that I can say, we know where we each stand, the rest is up to us. Hopefully, I have created in you a desire to search out certain things on your own to confirm whether or not the position that you presenty adhere to is really the one that you want to stake your life on.

I will not be reading or posting anymore.

Take care,
tom

Anonymous said...

Tom: "Hopefully, I have created in you a desire to search out certain things on your own to confirm whether or not the position that you presenty adhere to is really the one that you want to stake your life on."

Tom: "My defination of satan, you are my defination of satan, clear enough."

You desire to push people to confirm their beliefs. That would mean, Tom, that you don't know our beliefs. However, your self-acknowledged igornance of us, doesn't stop you from passing judgement, i.e., we are all Satan worshippers, etc.

Seems you make a lot of decisions in your life, without knowing the foundations, if anyone needs to confirm their beliefs Tom, it appears you have a lot of maturing to do, but, alas, that can't happen until you are able to accept that "you" aren't your own "god", and passing judgement on the rest of humanity from a point of omniscience.

Tom, you are the reason, many people left christianity, along with all of the other religious leaders who are self-elected gods, calling the shots from the pulpit, using selectively chosen scripture for their own purposes. You have no more knowledge of a god, than anyone else on this planet, but "you" Tom, seem to beleive you know more than others, because Tom, you want to be god. Do humanity a favor, and keep your own self-glorification to yourself.

Tom, your purpose by the words you provided, was to do nothing but make a plea to those who are ignorant to accept that you are "god", and what you state is "absolutely" right, because anything less, makes them wrong.

If you had a clue about your own religion, you'd understand that Satan/Lucifer, according to tradition was thrown out of heaven for attempting a hostile take-over. It appears Tom, you are in a position, to also be vying no less than for god's position, which of course, puts you right beside Satan in my book, according to traditional views.

Enjoy your deluded life, and apparent need for godly conquest, some of us don't require that goal in our lives to find purpose. Just keep your self-delusion to yourself, and allow everyone else to live their life with liberty/freedom, and the ability to find happiness, and Tom, that's not "your" definition of "happiness", that is happiness based on what a person defines as "happiness" for themselves.

Tom: "I will not be reading or posting anymore."

I'm quite confident you haven't been reading much of anything, before your posting, but that's just based on the words you provided here, perhaps you are just reading the wrong material.

Anonymous said...

I admit I have not read everyone's comments but I do want to say this. I do believe in God and that Jesus Christ is the son of God and the living saviour. If I am right, I have nothing to lose and an eternity in Heaven to gain. If I am wrong, I have nothing to gain and nothing to lose and have lived a life not fearing death. If you are right, you have nothing to lose and nothing to gain. Only you know if you fear death. If you are wrong, you have everything to lose and only an eternity in Hell to gain. I hope you live your life peacfully and fully.

Anonymous said...

Woo hoo! Pascal's Wager again! That's the same crap I used to barf out at people when I was a christian!! Haha! Perhaps you should read up on Pascal's Wager and why it DOES NOT work before you spew off with it here. Tired news, guy - we're all familiar with it, and we're all immune to it.

Blaise Pascal (1623-62), was a French philosopher, mathematician, and physicist who is considered one of the great minds in Western intellectual history. He was also a rigid Catholic and his famous wager ought to be renamed "Buy or Fry." Pascal said that people have everything to gain and nothing to lose by believing in Catholicism, and that they have everything to lose and nothing to gain by not believing in Catholicism. So, he concluded, people should believe in Catholicism. Like the meaning of life question and the argument from authority, this provides no way of determining the truth or falsity of biblical claims. It is just the bribe of eternal life and the threat of eternal hellfire, dressed up to look respectable.

I take it, Annonymous, you're Catholic? If not, you're really unoriginal AND are REALLY going to fry now for plagering their dogma! By the way - what world view out there will Pascal's Wager NOT work for?? Huh??

Anonymous said...

I admit I have not read everyone's comments but I do want to say this. I do believe in Allah and that Muhammed is the son of God and the living Prophet. If I am right, I have nothing to lose and an eternity in Heaven to gain. If I am wrong, I have nothing to gain and nothing to lose and have lived a life not fearing death. If you are right, you have nothing to lose and nothing to gain. Only you know if you fear death. If you are wrong, you have everything to lose and only an eternity in Hell to gain. I hope you live your life peacfully and fully.

...See how stupid you sound??
6/05/2006 8:41 PM

Anonymous said...

All I'd like to say is, God is not any omnipotent being. In emotional or "psychological" terms, god is Faith, and something I'm currently contemplating on, virtue.

In "physical" terms, God is energy. The energy that binds this universes and perhaps any other multiverses that may exist.


Disagree? Go study quantum physics, every non-atheist quantum scientist knows about the energy that binds us all, you don't even have to be religious to come to that conclusion.

Kind of good post though I really disliked the extremist Atheist replies.. dissapointing for people who claim to be "all logic" .

Anonymous said...

Anon # 1,453,348 said: " Kind of good post though I really disliked the extremist Atheist replies.. dissapointing for people who claim to be 'all logic'. "

The term "extremist Atheist" is unnecessarily and falsely redundant. Atheism is such a simple concept to understand, but yet, people continue to misunderstand it, and thus, mischaracterize what it means to be an Atheist.

Firstly, there is nothing "extreme" about a postion of neutrality. Is one an "extremist" if they don't have a belief in elves, or "Osiris"? No, of course not. And just for clarification---this will NOT apply to a Pantheist position regarding god. If one chooses to call the "energy that binds us all" a "God", that's fine and dandy----but mind you, since all of humanity breaths oxygen for survival, I could just as easily call oxygen "God", from a Pantheist perspective. Atheism is more about the term "God" as a personal being, not "God" as a "force", or as a non-personal "being".

From a Deist perspective, Atheism does NOT say that a Universal non-personal God does not exist. It merely says that one doesn't have a belief in such a "thing", and until objective proof is put forth---BY THE ONE MAKING THE CLAIM--- that a postition of neutrality is the most logical postion. So yes, Atheism is the logical choice.

boomSLANG(continually clarifying what it means to be an Atheist)

Anonymous said...

AS far as I can tell, Danu Lu Blessings / Scent of Rain was confirmed true as per Diana Blessing's message to Truth or Fiction, www.truthorfiction.com on 8/21/00...

Angels, God, or just whatever her interpretation was, blessings for her! Take what you need from it & what you don't just pass it on, the girl had some imagery, an interpretation from traumatic events.

No need to trample a beautiful story, as far as I know it's not foisting Xtianity on anyone. Faith, spirituality, NOT the same as religion. Not that I would want to stumble anyone, from their learned path - not even an atheist.

A Gnostic

JBird

Anonymous said...

I recently got sent the story of Dana Lu Blessing and found my way to this blogg. As a new christian I have been hungry for knowledge in the pursuit of developing a love relationship with God. I have many ppl trying to debunk my faith and all too often I hear, "I'm a good person, I don't need to go to church because I'm sure I'll go to heaven anyway".
"I'm a good person, eh?". Good by who's standards? Gods or yours? Are you determining your level of 'goodness' by your own moralistic code? Because if you are, consider this; consider the terrorist who has just blown up himself along with 400 others will he go to heaven? In his mind he is doing what he believes is morally correct.

msg from Peter from Darwin Australia

Anonymous said...

Hey there everyone,
You're making out like God's a fierce, stubborn baby who demands praise and obedience from everyone. That totally explains why he sent his own son to die for our sins, to have nails hammered into his veins, to have his side slashed with a spear, to be mocked by the ones he loved... If you don't believe in God, if you don't believe in Jesus, I can see how you'd have your reasons for that. Just do one thing for me, ok? Next time you have a problem, pray and I mean really pray for God to take care of it. He won't do it to prove he exists. He may not do it straight away. But pray with an open mind,and he will take care of you. When he does, come back on this board and tell us. To all the people who claimed that Christians all say you have to be completely pure and good to go to heaven, and then turn out to be complete hypocrites. Christianity is all about grace. We don't have to save ourselves because Jesus saved us by sacrificing himself. We were born with sin, and we can't change that, it's human nature. Try going a day without sinning and you'll find you can't. At least one mean thought/wish/deed/frustration will slip through. But that doesn't matter, because Jesus was the last, final and perfect sacrifice. He saved our lives, because he's cool like that.
Jesus loves you, so God Bless. I hope you change your minds.

Anonymous said...

Peter said: "Are you determining your level of 'goodness' by your own moralistic code? Because if you are, consider this; consider the terrorist who has just blown up himself along with 400 others will he go to heaven?"

Consider the "omniscient God" who knows it will happen; consider the "omnipotent God" who idley sits by as it does happen. Then, consider the "perfect" God who cannot get his message across clear enough, as to not have people killing each other over who has the right interpretation.

And FYI, I HAVE considered all three, and I've come to the logical conclusion that a personal god DOES NOT exist.

Enjoy your delusion.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said: "You're making out like God's a fierce, stubborn baby who demands praise and obedience from everyone."

Well, if he existed, you nailed it...but you left out lazy, sadistic, and whiney---but instead, we're "making out" like your biblegod doesn't exist. YOU are the one who is presupposing that your biblegod is real, so in turn, WE use the same book that you use to say that he is real, to show that in fact he is NOT real---that he is non-existant.

If we were to simply say "God doesn't exist", you and your ilk instantly start in with your biblio-babble, your "personal" testimonies, hellfire threats, and a whole host of other illogical nonsense--- NONE of which is objective evidence for the existance of ANY God, let alone your biblegod. Stick in your memory bank.

Anon said: "Jesus loves you, so God Bless. I hope you change your minds."

Jesus is non-existant, so your prayer is useless. I hope you change your self-righteous ways and wake up to reality.

Anonymous said...

You know...i will pray for all of you that do not believe in God. I am a Christian. I love my God with all of my heart. My God is not a God that demands to be worshiped. God does not want to be worshiped..he wants a relationship with each and every one of us. I love all people. I believe that the people in this world who do not believe in God need more love than any of us. And when preachers say they have talked to God...if you yourself were close to God than you would know that they did not "hear" this voice coming down from the clouds one day. And I hear the comments on how did God learn English. Well..he didnt. He already knew it. God is almighty and all knowing. He knows our hearts. He knows what we think, how we feel..he even knows what choices we will make before we ever even make them. I am no preacher. I am not the most regular church attendee. I have talked to God..I have heard him. God used the Holy Spirit to communicate with us. I have learned that God sometimes talks through your friends. I have been confused before on what decision to make and prayed about it...then ..and I dont mean suddenly..like some miracle had just descended on me..but I ended up with a very peaceful feeling and sense of direction for what I needed to choose. I am not here to mock or ridicule anyone who does not believe the way that I do. That is your right as a human being...the right to choose. You always have a choice. I am here to say that God still loves you even though you choose not to believe in Him. And I am going to pray that each and everyone of you do come to know Him.

Steven Bently said...

To anony of 10:45am

You know what? If God was around before you where born, how come you never talked to God until after you were born?

Do you think your father or mother had Jesus and your eternal salvation on their minds at the exact moment of insemination (your fathers orgasm)into your mother?

The only place a God or Jesus exists is in your mind, you're just repeating things you've heard other monkeys repeat.

Now, I can prove to you that God and Jesus only exists in the conscious living brain.

1. God and Jesus disappear when you are asleep (where do they go?)

2. God and Jesus disappear when you are unconscious (where do they go?)

3. God and Jesus disapear when you're under anethesia during surgery (where do they go?)

4. All Gods and saviors disappear when the mind is unconscious.

5. Therefore, all Gods and saviors disappear when the mind is dead.

6. All the things that you've been told to believe, will disappear when you are dead.

You might as well learn it now, so get over with talking to yourself,and callin it God, it's just your mind repeating just what it wants yourself to hear.

boomSLANG said...

Fundony-mouse said: "You know...i will pray for all of you that(who) do not believe in God."

You know...I will bleed a live dove into a rocks glass with a twist of lime and a splash of Tabasco, and then I'll chug it down for all of you who don't believe in Allah, Buddha, fairies, imps, dragons, sea monsters, ghosts, goblins, the Great Pumpkin, Santy Claus, witch doctors, talking snakes, unicorns, swimming hammers, devils, werewolves, leprechauns...::yawn::...winged beings with glowing circles over their heads, firey chariots, magic, talking domestic asses...and the list of mythology goes on. My dove cocktail will work though...I have "faith"!

Fundy: "I am a Christian. I love my God with all of my heart.

I am a non-christian. I disbelieve in your god with all my brain.(the same way you disbelieve in all other gods)

'Nonny: "My God is not a God that demands to be worshiped."

Yet, what will happen if you don't worship him? Hell? The word is "COERSION".

Fundy: "God does not want to be worshiped..he wants a relationship with each and every one of us."

Did God send you a Hallmark greeting card telling you about this "relationship" he wants? Produce evidence that you know your god wants such a thing. Waiting.

X-ian: "I believe that the people in this world who do not believe in God need more love than any of us."

I believe that people in this world who believe in gods need less religion, and more education. I believe they should cease and desist from using ANY modern apparatus, and that when they fall victim to illness, they shouldn't be permitted near a hospital or University educated doctor. God's ways are "unchanging", so I believe they should be HAPPY to live their lives just like their Christian counter-parts did 2000 years ago.

Fundy-mouse: "And when preachers say they have talked to God...if you yourself were close to God than you would know that they did not "hear" this voice coming down from the clouds one day.."

No sh*t? Boy, there's no tellin' WHAT we'd believe if you weren't around to educate us. Thanks.

X-ian: "And I hear the comments on how did God learn English. Well..he didnt. He already knew it."

Whaaa?..God spoke English to Adam and Eve?...two people from the middle east? Hell..it's no wonder they disobeyed...they couldn't understand him! "Quaw, qwaaah, quaaw-quaw quaww!...quaaw quaw?" lmao!

Fundy: "God is almighty and all knowing. He knows our hearts. He knows what we think, how we feel..he even knows what choices we will make before we ever even make them.."

So then he knows what little evidence it would take to get me to believe, but yet, he'd rather sit in his Lazyboy and watch reruns of "As the World Burns".

'Nonny: "I have talked to God..I have heard him."

Oh REALLY?? Please describe "God's voice" for us...does he speak English with a "British" accent? Or is it more of a "Bawston" accent? Is he closer to a baritone?..or tenor? Does spittle fly out of God's mouth when he speaks?

Fundy said: "I am not here to mock or ridicule anyone who does not believe the way that I do. That is your right as a human being...the right to choose. You always have a choice. I am here to say that God still loves you even though you choose not to believe in Him. And I am going to pray that each and everyone of you do come to know Him."

I, on the other hand, AM here to mock the living shit out you. Not you as a person, because you may be a decent law abiding human being. However, your belief, and the fact that this is an EX-christian website, open the door for some serious mockery. If you had empirical evidence for ANY of the biblio-crap you've been spewing, then a serious dialogue might ensue. But you, like all Christians, don't have this evidence. It really concerns me that people in the 21st century actually believe this crap.

Anonymous said...

Kyle here new to this site, was actually looking up the history of Paganism when I happen to stumble upon this site.

To Pastor Denny: Keep believing what you believe. Stay Grounded in your faith.

To Those Who are EX's: Keep believing what you believe and follow what your logic tells you.

No one truly knows the Truth. Anyone who claims to know Truth are deceiving themselves. What we need to concern ourselves with is the Tolerance to accept people for who they are regardless of what they believe, and strive for the betterment of Humanity and the conditions of our society.

In the end we make our own heaven or hells by dwelling on the positive and negatives of right now. If we are convinced we are going to hell we focus on avoiding hell and are distracted from the needs of now. If we focus on everything is great and there is nothing to fear we live in a conveluded state of illusion and once again we become distracted from the now.

What is going on now is a world headed for calamity in the name of religions that claim to have the Truth. Instead of worrying about how someone chooses to worship lets focus on how we can feed and house the poor, build better partnerships for better trade and economic growth, reduce pollution so that our great-great-grand children will have a clean world to live in.

Who cares if we pray to JC or meditate in perfect stillness, or don't pray at all. We are all humans first and foremost. We all bleed the same color of blood, drink the same water provided by this earth, and breathe the oxygen from the air.

Tolerance and compassion are the key fundamentals. When we have this everything else will fall into place and we can celebrate our differences without the worry of persecution.

Just my 2 cents worth!
Kyle

boomSLANG said...

Kyle: "What is going on now is a world headed for calamity in the name of religions that claim to have the Truth."

Right.

Later comment: "Tolerance and compassion are the key fundamentals."

Right again....yet, if we're heading for calamity, it's because religions DON'T "tolerate" those who oppose them, as well as, they're only "compassionate" for their OWN kind. So why tell a religionist to "stay grounded in your Faith"? ' Just sayin'..

Anonymous said...

For starters, what evidence does anyone have for the "particles" that had to have always been here for the Big Bang to ever happen. Something always had to exist. Either some particles which eventually came together and then exploded to form a perfectly working and scientifically complex universe...or God. Christianity is about love. The Bible says repeatedly that "God is love" Christ hung out with taxcollctors and prostitutes, because He loves everyone and they needed it the most. We as Christians, are not supposed to judge. That's not our job.

boomSLANG said...

For starters, what evidence does anyone have for the "particles" that had to have always been here for the Big Bang to ever happen. Something always had to exist.

Yes..and his name is "ALLAH"! King of Kings; Lord of Lords! The "evidence" is in the Holy Q'ran--the Word of God!

Either some particles which eventually came together and then exploded to form a perfectly working and scientifically complex universe...or God.

Yes!...praise Allah!

Christianity is about love.

Christianity? You mean, those fundamentalist extremists in the West?...ones like Fred Phelps and David koresh? Oooo..they're bad news. Seek Allah..the one TRUE God. Muhammad loves you...he's your savior...don't deny him!

We as Christians, are not supposed to judge. That's not our job.

No, it's Allah's job! Repent!

Anonymous said...

You all may not believe in God, but I don't believe in athiests, and my heart breaks for all of you. I am not a preacher or a Bible scholar or anything else, I am a Christian who lives by faith, not by sight. I don't need the proof of this world, the proof is written on my heart, and on yours, whether you choose to admit it or not. One day every knee WILL bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, even you. The difference is where we'll be doing it from. Going through life without Christ has got to be the most hopeless, desperate, painful thing I've ever experienced. It's not about the behavior and opinions of others, it's about your relationship with Jesus Christ. I'm sad you let Satan pull the wool over your eyes (or don't you believe in him either?).

webmdave said...

I'm sad you let Satan pull the wool over your eyes (or don't you believe in him either?).

I don't believe in Satan, in dragons, in talking snakes, in talking donkeys, in Zeus, in Allah, in flying chariots, in talking burning bushes, or in flying un-dead man-gods.

When you can explain to yourself why you don't believe in any of the thousands of gods that millions of people have worshipped and adored throughout history, then you will understand why we don't believe in your favorite deity either.

Life is quite enjoyable when unincumbered with fantastic delusions of magical angels, demons and holy ghosts. In fact, reality is awesome. You should try it sometime. I'm sure you'd find reality unfamiliar, but you might find it refreshing.

Anonymous said...

" One day every knee WILL bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.."

Aww, for FUCK sakes; shut the hell up! You ignorant religibot - use some new material, will you?? Pete's sake - how many times have we all had to hear that same stupid phrase??!? God - stop regurgitating that bullshit and think of something NEW. Please?? Start thinking for yourself, and with your brain - not your bowels. Yeesh. -Wes.

christina said...

To Judith Barker....

I have evidence of an existing God. I am or was walking proof. I am currently walking in darkness....however, back 3 to 4 years ago I had a life changing God experience happen to me. I worked for an internet company with unlimited amounts of free usage at work and I could access any website I wanted. So I did and just so happen to type the words "going to hell" in a search engine. Don't know what prompted me to type that...but I did. Suddenly....there were so many site to chose from. No matter which on I read....it scared the death out of me. So many years going by only knowing of who God was....and not actually knowing him. I sited a prayer aloud at my desk from a website...it was a "become born again" prayer. It worked. From then on, I walked in the light, I had Jesus by my side...and God guiding the way. I stopped doing the bad things I used to do and started preaching the Gospel to people at work...of course who did not believe. The only downfall I had was I became constantly scared the the end of the world was near. I was always sick, worried and wanted to sleep all of the time. I think maybe I was depressed because I knew that alot of the people I knew....were not going to Heaven. Eventually I begged God to not let me feel this way. One morning I woke up and felt different. I started old habits and have not stopped. Not matter how many times I have prayed...how many times I became saved again...even baptism. I am what you called walking in darkness and I don't know how to get Jesus to come back to me. I feel that I have betrayed him and he wont take me back. NOTHING will hinder my faith in God or Jesus Christ. NOTHING. There is nothing you can say. Maybe before my experience...sure. God touched my heart and now there is NO doubt in my mind God is real and he showed me just how wonderful my heart could be. Now, I am just down right ugly sometimes. I cannot explain it. Oh how I wish he would give it all back to me. I loved everyone. I saw the best. Now, it is gone. So that is how I know. He showed me a world I never knew and I only hope and pray he gives it back. Now I can say I knew God and Jesus and they knew me.

Anonymous said...

Dear Christina,

Your lack of inner peace is not coming from God, it's coming from the tempter. I beg you to please Him by turning from sin and by getting to know Him even better with the following sites (below).
There is a most special Charisma that has been given to Vassula Ryden(TLIG site). Please go to this site and to the Garabandal site on the Marian apparitions from 1961-1965.

The messages being given to Vassula since 1986 are genuine and the Holy See have studied them all and found no theological issues. You have been given the special grace of belief, praise God for this gift and know that He loves you very much. You should start reading the TLIG messages in chronological order.

Oh, how I wish everyone at this site good admit there sinful nature with sincerity to God. This I tell, is irresistable to our loving God. He would immediately come to their rescue and shower them with His graces. With sincertiy and honesty about oneself, Gog would easily take the soft heart being presented to Him and infuse it with a healthy fear of God. This fear comes from acknowledging His holiness and respecting Him as your creator. With this fear, coupled with the humility and sincerity that allowed it to grow, He'll bless that soul with much Love! Oh, how I love our God!

Please everyone, He lives, He's real and He has revealed Himself through the Gospels and now, through the TLIG messages. Please soften your hearts to receive His message, He can do nothing with a soul that has encased itself in pride and arrogance.

May God bless you all!
Marc
http://www.tlig.org/
http://www.garabandal.org/
http://www.garabandal.com/

Anonymous said...

Marc,

Are you really that delusional, or is your letter a come-on to see if you can get something going with Christina?

How is the crap on any of the websites you suggested any different from all the other fundamentalist guano we’ve been wiping off of ourselves for years?

What sinful nature? Outside of the bible or biblically based publications, can you tell JUST ONE PLACE where it says “we are all sinful” and require the help of God/Jesus?

You say He has revealed himself through the gospels. Is that the same vicious, blood thirsty barbarian that was written about in the Old Testament? The one that Jesus is the same as, only in human form? Nice deity you worship!

I don’t believe you when you say “I love God”. You don’t love God, you FEAR God and you’ll do anything not to get on his bad side. Are you so afraid of life, and eventual death, that you can only face it by fearing an invisible man in the sky? Does that fear give your life meaning?

The only arrogance I can detect is on your part with your arrogant assumption that EX-christians have just chosen to harden their hearts and it takes a BS artist like yourself to come on here and point the ignorant heathens in the right direction.

Too bad Allah, Thor, Vishnu and Zeus, among others, are going to beat the sh*t out of your non-believing ass after you die. (Not really, you’ll just return to dust like the rest of us.)

n/a said...

UnBlinded wrote:

Gog [sic] would easily take the soft heart being presented to Him and infuse it with a healthy fear of God. This fear comes from acknowledging His holiness and respecting Him as your creator

Not surprisingly there are some Bible verses that say you are totally wrong:

2Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

1John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Anonymous said...

Dear warnepiece,

Your response has caused my soul to shudder. I guess I'm just not used to feeling such resentment and your response truly scared me. I do wonder what happened in your life to cause you to harbor such hatred? You must know that every and all hatred and resentments are a heavy burdens and I pray that you'll turn to God someday to help you release this weight.

I understand that I did address everyone in my response but please know that I also hoped to share something special with Christina. The fear she has, I once had and God removes this fear as he works to perfect His love in each of us. The sacrament of Confession is the formal means to this end. The Web sites I posted would guide everyone that reads them
with humility to His Church.

Yes, I most certainly fear God but it's not God I fear, but His judgement on me. Our God (yes yours too, even though you won't acknowledge Him anymore) is all about Love. He was incredibly patient and gentle with me once (and still is) when he woke me up from a nightmare...my life. Since then, he's blessed me with a wife and child (due soon). I trust this helps a little with your doubts on my motive with responding to Christina.

I could never attempt to debate the bible with you as I am not as studied in it's contents as you appear to be. But I will concede on your observation of my arrogance...it may be true, but I hope not. It is very difficult for us (humans) to do anything without having it tainted in some way by our selfishness or pride. In any an all responses I might have on the subject of God, I hope to always wonder if my motives might be selfish. In this instance, I pray that my efforts were honest and free of any hypocrisy. I realize that I responded a little too quickly (with a couple typos) but I think I can attribute this to my over-zealousness to responding to Christina's state. I feel very stonily that if she believes in Christ, he can free
her of whatever taunts her. With her faith, all she needs to say out loud is "In the name of Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior, Satan depart!" and the healing process will begin.

With this action, she will engage Jesus and soon after, a repentant heart will flourish and a loving God will embrace her.

Please understand that the last thing I want to do is come across as self-righteous. On this topic, I'm quite certain that i'm the most unworthy candidate to receive God's Mercy but somehow, I know He loves me and walks with me. For me to doubt His love and forgiveness would be quite arrogant on my part, wouldn't you agree? Although, it took me a
long time to appreciate this point.

Jesus is my Teacher and His lessons come daily. Please forgive any imperfections in this response and I pray that you won't take offence to any of my words. In typing this, i've calmed down enough to know that I truly forgive your harsh words and will pray for you and everyone at this site, the next time I kneel before our God.

In response to Alan, your 1st verse refers to the fear to preach the Word of God and the second point to the imperfection of our love of God if we continue to fear Him. We should fear Him when we disobey Him, but once you've confessed your sins (even if it takes weeks of sorrow filled nights...as in my case), you should know that you will wake up one day, aware of His mercy. From this point on, a close fellowship with God is necessary to protect
yourself from falling asleep again.

May God bless you all!
Marc
http://www.tlig.org/
http://www.garabandal.org/
http://www.garabandal.com/

Anonymous said...

Christina, your religion is failing you much as it failed the hundreds of people who have posted their testimonies at Ex-C. Please read these so that you can better understand why they left the cult.

You are not ugly. You do not and never did have a sinful nature. No sky daddy is about to send sword-wielding angels and multi-headed beasts any time soon, if ever.

Your fears are being reinforced by the eschatological, fear-inducing, life-denying, bullshit message of Christianity.

Come out into the sunlight and dance with the rest of us gloriously imperfect humans.

boomSLANG said...

'blinded,

You are the poster-child for the ill-effects of the Christian meme. You spout off all of the "pop" apologetic soundbites, while seemingly oblivious to the fact that you are on an EX-christian website. Then to top it off, you say you have little knowledge of your "Holy" handbook, the bible.

You have nothing--NOT-A-THING--to substantiate your position, except your own personal testimony. This postition---which amounts to "I believe"---is not, and will never be, a Universal truth. You say you "fear" judgement from your biblegod, and then spout off about how your God is "all about love". Guess what?....true love doesn't have conditions attached to it, namely those that cause "fear". Who in their right mind would want to "scare" someone into loving them? Who?...maybe the neighborhood bully, but a "perfect" god? Absurd.

Look, we get sick and tired of people preaching to us about how we didn't "believe the right way"..and how we "couldn't possibly be an ex-christian". We get sick of repeating ourselves to only be ignored. This understandable frustration sometimes comes across as "anger", especially when we're bombarded with the constant self-rightiousness of the religious, which now appears to be in conjuction with pussy-ass mellow drama---drama such as how we "shudder" someone's "soul". Please spare me. F%cking BOO! LMAO!!!!!!!

'blinded--you are on an EX-christian website. At the risk of sounding "angry"---put up...or shut up.(The "put up" would be refering to objective evidence for your "Jesus"....the "shut up" would be click-off)

PS: Prayer is absolutely worthless.


Disclamer: Although blasphemy is a 'blast for me'--it has nothing to do with my argument, and/or my Atheism.

Anonymous said...

Kyle: "No one truly knows the Truth. Anyone who claims to know Truth are deceiving themselves."

Therefore, your comment is not true and holds no merit.

Kyle: "What we need to concern ourselves with is the Tolerance to accept people for who they are regardless of what they believe, and strive for the betterment of Humanity and the conditions of our society."

Is that truth, or is that a fabricated lie, presented as truth?

Anonymous said...

Oh for the love of God! :)

It's sad to see so many ppl believing in nothing. Ex-believers, non-believers...Christianity is a way of life..religion is the organisation that came about as man (as is his nature) tries to control anything given to him or discovered ...

Ppl on here mock believers...well that is your prerogative, but not a person on here was around for iether the 7days of creation or the big bang (whichever one you choose)...

Christianity as a religion is like any other in that it depends ultimately on faith i.e. believing the unseen and then still having to deal with the seen ..something that takes much more courage than simply believing what you can see.

The amount of hatred I see in some of the words written here by ppl who supposedly "hate the hatred of Christianity and Christian bullsh*t" is quite hypocritical, and so too would be any response in the opposite - whether from Christian or atheist - it's a pity that because you stop believing something it results in you actively hating it - or hate something cause you don't believe. A true waste of time really...

As for myself I put forward - a true Christian is one because he knows he is NOT perfect, so to use examples of "christians" being worse than atheists is a nonissue ...Christians differ from atheists not in their "goodness" (who here can measure that? I don't - left my good-o-meter at home) but in their attitude and beliefs - an atheist can be a more helpful person than a Christian yes..but that wasn't the point was it?

Whether you choose to believe this or any religion is a bag of manmade lies is your decision...the same can be said of evolution and the big bang as none of us was around for any (unless methusaleh happens to e a forum member :)

So I can only say good luck to all you believers and all fellow believers who believe in NOT believing..it IS you right each of you, and I wouldn't dream of trying to deny it... So the next time some hateful remark comes out fo your head in an effort to discredit some opposition think about this...what would Jesus do (supposedly practicing Christians)..or "what is the right thing to do" (atheists who decide to be good ppl)

Time will tell whether it was the right choice.

boomSLANG said...

Oh for the love of God! :)

Which one?...there are TENS of THOUSANDS!....it's...it's...it's a "Deity Buffet"! [: )

It's sad to see so many ppl believing in nothing.

It's sad to see you resort to caricaturing Atheism, and doing so, most likely because you ignorant of what it actually means. Here's a few pointers to take with you:

Firstly, the word "Atheist" wouldn't even be necessary if it were not for people insisting that god(s) exist. If "Leprechaunist" was a term ascribed to people who went around insisting that leprechauns exist, while also insisting that everyone else MUST believe in them too, then it really wouldn't be unreasonable to think of these people as a religious cult, now would it? No, it wouldn't... thus, the rational-minded people would likely be forced to devise a word that meant the "lack of belief in leprechauns", this, instead of just repeating over-and-over-and-over-and-over, "Y'know...I just don't believe in leprechauns, thank you very much.....because I see no evidence of such things."

Secondly, to lack belief in god(s) does not make one guilty of "believing in nothing". I mean, I "believe" in a lot of things. For instance, I "believe" that that was an assinine implication. And here's another--I "believe" that the only real "love" that exists, is UNconditional. And here's yet another--I "believe" that religion is divisive, and it lends itself to people justifying their own prejudice. See? There's three whole beliefs right there! Amen!

Christianity is a way of life..religion is the organisation that came about as man (as is his nature) tries to control anything given to him or discovered

Nice try. Christianity is a religion. Discover that.

Ppl on here mock believers...well that is your prerogative, but not a person on here was around for iether the 7days of creation or the big bang (whichever one you choose)

Thank you. Okay, so on the subject of abiogeneisis, no one....repeat-- NO ONE knows what caused the universe, or even if it was "caused". Thanks again, for clearing that up.

Now, on the other hand, we DO know that the book of Genesis is replete with inaccurate/non-factual information....some of which borders on absurd. 'Got "firmament"? Furthermore, it's not even chronologically sound. And if we can't trust it to accurately tell us how it all started, well, we certainly can't trust it to tell us how it alls ends, can we?(rhetorical)

Christianity as a religion is like any other in that it depends ultimately on faith i.e. believing the unseen and then still having to deal with the seen ..something that takes much more courage than simply believing what you can see.

Whaaa?...Christianity "as a religion"??? Golly....I could've swore you said it wasn't a "religion".

......checking....

Yup..that's what you said, alright. So which is it? Nonetheless, I disagree that it "takes much more courage" to have "faith" that one will live a life of sheer unadulterated bliss, somewhere up in the clouds with their deceased friends and relatives. That, as opposed to just expiring like all other living things. Hmm.....which "future" sounds "brighter" and easier to look forward to? lol.

The amount of hatred I see in some of the words written here by ppl who supposedly "hate the hatred of Christianity and Christian bullsh*t" is quite hypocritical..

Um, what's "supposed" about it? Many of us DO despise the fact that people use religion, Christianity included, to justify their hatred of people who don't subscribe to their "one-size-fits-all" mentality. For the religious people who don't practice this?.... they don't need religion in the first place.

...it's a pity that because you stop believing something it results in you actively hating it - or hate something cause you don't believe. A true waste of time really.

I don't believe that smack is good for me. If someone tells me that smack is good for me, they have lied to me, therefore, I'm justified in hating heroin, and also justified in actively taking a stance against people who sell it.

As for myself I put forward - a true Christian is one because he knows he is NOT perfect, so to use examples of "christians" being worse than atheists is a nonissue..

Talking about who is, or isn't, a "true Christian" is a "non-issue". A gazillion different "Christians" will tell you a gazillion different attributes/requirements to being "true Christian". Whether one is "perfect" or not is immaterial to what worldview and/or religious sect they subscribe to. The "issue" is that Christians claim they get their morality from a higher authority---that they have a "holy ghost" living inside their "heart". Yet, their actions don't always reflect it. Moreover, I don't think anyone has said that Christians are "worse" than non-believers. What we are saying is that you don't need religion.

Whether you choose to believe this or any religion is a bag of manmade lies is your decision

Oh, you mean the same way you have likely decided that all religions but your own are manmade lies? BTW, that's an ironic adjective you used to describe "religion".

..the same can be said of evolution and the big bang as none of us was around for any...

Please educate yourself on what a "theory" is, in contrast to a hypothesis. Then, please educate yourself on the "theory", and FACT, of evolution. "Creation" is a hypothesis that is neither testable, nor falsifiable..so it cannot technically be a "theory", let alone a "fact". And yes, we are "around" for evolution.

So I can only say good luck to all you believers and all fellow believers who believe in NOT believing.

LOL! Honestly, whAT kind of non-sensical tit-for-tat double-talk is that? Look---lack of belief is NOT a "belief". If I asked you if you believed if Santa existed, I highly doubt you'd say, "Why yes!...I DO believe that Santa doesn't exist!" And anyway, what are you implying?....are you saying that if Atheism was a "belief" that it's just as bad as your belief?

So the next time some hateful remark comes out fo your head in an effort to discredit some opposition think about this...what would Jesus do (supposedly practicing Christians)..or "what is the right thing to do" (atheists who decide to be good ppl)

Until all 33 THOUSAND+ Christian denominations can decide on what "Jesus would do", it is a moot point to ask what Jesus would do. What would your boy Jesus do if I was selling my daughter as a slave on Ebay? Hmmm? What would "He" do if I went down to Walmart next Sunday and started throwing stones at the employees who work on "the Sabbath"? What?...give me a high five? Please.

Time will tell whether it was the right choice.

Some thinnly veiled Pascal's Wager. Awww.

UnBlinded said...

Hi Boomslang,

In response to your statement:
"You have nothing--NOT-A-THING--to substantiate your position, except your own personal testimony"

I'd like you to know that I have once witnessed the physical manifestation of the scent of roses while alone praying the rosary. In fact, my mother has also received this grace (while in her vehicle and more than once) and when her co-worker joined her in the car (she was giving her a ride home), she also noticed a very distinct
scent of roses without being prompted by my mother. My father also once witnessed this manifestation with my mother. I really don't know what to say about these spiritual gifts, except to say that I thank God for them as they certainly help strengthen faith.

As well, I was agnostic for most of my life and thought it certain that Darwinian evolution had explained away God. Since coming to faith, I decided to start digging into the facts (or lack of) on Darwin's theory. My personal search has found that this theory has not a single leg to stand on. Nothing. I've read atheist books on the topic and Christian books on it and creation, is the only logical explanation to me.

This degree of complexity (the human body and all other life forms) could never come from chance or random micro-evolutionary steps. Modern microbiology has essentially put Darwin's theory to the grave for many, many scientist with an open-mind to the facts. The lilliputian world that has been uncovered since Darwin's time, has only shown that the complexity continues to exist and in fact, increase as we learn more. The biological machines that have been uncovered have irreducible complexity...no possibility for random-micro changes that could have brought about their existence. If you saw the biological schematic of many micro-organisms identified today through electron-microscopes, you'd think you're looking at an engineer's blue prints!

Isn't it fascinating how an inanimate universe could produce, randomly, living beings (you and I) to a degree of complexity that we can contemplate the universe. Don't you find this quite improbable, or should I say impossible? What if we covered the world full of children's building blocks and came back millions of years later and found a beautifully designed object. Let's say the blocks put themselves together to form a simple house structure. I can't imagine that anyone would think that anything but intelligent design put them together. I don't care how many storms, ice ages, came and past...you would never get anything that randomly "designs" itself.

If you believe in nothing, then you must believe in evolution and I hope that you are curious enough to look at the facts with an open mind. Because the facts are, there is no such thing as evolution.

Sadly, I also understand today how it doesn't matter what anyone says, does or testifies when it comes to the Truth. At the end of the day, you can only come to faith by the grace of God. Of this grace, I also know that He'll give it to anyone, so long as they meet Him half way. He is the perfect God and He will not impose His will on you. What satisfaction would God have to force his creation to love Him? Either you love righteousness or you don't. If you do, then you'll love God, because He's the only righteous One. This acknowledgment by man doesn't make man righteous, it makes him want to be like God, our Father, as He revealed Himself through His Son, Jesus.

During His time on earth, He had the same incredulous attitude from many, even though they witnessed His miracles! Why would he expect any different today, He doesn't. He most certainly can intercede but He needs many believers to amend for the world's iniquities. This is how He works, everything in perfect balance. For this reason, all I can say about anyone that has no Love for God, is that I pity them...because I understand them very much. Faith in today's world is difficult because we're surrounded by countless temptations to sin and this separates us from Him. If any man could simply acknowledge their failures to God, I know that He'll come rushing to their rescue. Because He loves every single one of us to a degree we cannot fathom. Why wouldn't He, He made us! and gave us that special gift, free will.

I pray that we all surrender our wills to Him every day, what could go wrong? I think we'd only learn more and more how to love each other, be merciful to each other and be lovers of justice. Yes that's correct, He's Love and Mercy but He's also Justice. For those of you that don't like the fact that He's also Justice, I'd just like to ask you how much you'd respect your earthly father and/or mother if they never imposed their guidance on you with their justice. Would you have loved your parents more if they let you do everything you wanted and never applied any justice to your misbehavior? Why do we all want to make God out to be nothing but Love and Mercy? (of which He is to an incomprehensible degree). Would we love Him more if we could lie, steal, kill, indulge in pleasures-physical and mental, dishonor Him, hate Him, oppress, etc, etc and have Him not even blink an eye at our vile behavior?

Well...as always, I pray that my only goal with posting to this site is to hopefully prompt someone to seek the Truth, because if you sincerely do, I know you'll find Him...with open arms. He's been waiting for you since the day you were created. :)

May God bless you all!
Marc
http://www.tlig.org/
http://www.garabandal.org/
http://www.garabandal.com/

Anonymous said...

For all those that don't believe in God - If you don't believe in Him than why do you spend so much talking about not believing in Him and trying to convince others not to believe in Him?

Makes no sense to me - why do you care that we care about Him - could it be that you need us to agree so that you can feel justified? If you are righteously justified than this site should not even exist.

Just someone who love Christ Jesus - whithout Him life just seems to be missing something

webmdave said...

Anonymous,

All fomer cultists have a need to talk about their former delusions. If you ever escape the Christ Cult, you'll need a place to talk. That's what this site is for.

If you'd have bothered to read the Site Purpose and Disclaimer, you'd already know why this site exists.

When I gave up belief in Santa Claus, life seemed less full. Then I grew up.

Peace.

Anonymous said...

If u dont believe in God then check out www.shillongrevival.wordpress.com or in u-tube or google shillong, revival....

then ul learn and judge for yourself how Living and real is God....

allasbad said...

sounds like all of you have just got a chip on ur shoulder if you don't beleive in christianity why do u spend so much time being ex-chiristian ...u all sound like ur trying to be rebelious teenagers or something....let the preacher beleive what he wants ..you can beleive what you want but you keep saying oh he's going to tell you to burn in hell and judge you ..when this site is the most judgemental site i have ever seen

do you know every christian ?
is every christian black haters in the KKK ?
do they all hate gays ?

thats just rediculous to beleive that and every one knows it not true yuor all just pissed offf people with bad experiences of a fiath
relegion is now a word with bad connnotations because of what POEPLE not god have done using that name...so christians do stear clear of the word religion...is there any need to tak ethe piss out of a people group ...being judgemental seems to be the EX-CHRSTIAN websites problem
:O

Astreja said...

Aliasbad: "sounds like all of you have just got a chip on ur shoulder..."

(slugs Aliasbad with a clue-by-four) You mean, this one?

"if you don't beleive in christianity why do u spend so much time being ex-chiristian..."

Because your religion is actively harming humanity.

"this site is the most judgemental site i have ever seen"

Damn fucking right we're judgemental here.

"yuor all just pissed offf people with bad experiences of a fiath"

Yes, we are indeed extremely pissed off. But that is not "all" we are.

"relegion is now a word with bad connnotations because of what POEPLE not god have done using that name..."

Your god can show up any time it likes to deal with the people who give religion a bad name. Until that happens, we will continue to mercilessly criticize Christianity and the people who use it to harm others.

AtheistToothFairy said...

allasbad wrote:
u all sound like ur trying to be rebelious teenagers or something
--------
I must say, not TOO bad for a fundie xtian poster......
In your fairly short post, I counted 'only' 20 destroyed words in your spelling; along with the usual lazy shortcuts that are demonstrative of a teenage poster.

>>do you know every christian ?

Do you know every ex-xtian?

Frankly, I don't have to know every xtian to know that they all are deluded individuals.
They all believe in some invisible sky-daddy and some grim jesus that never walked this earth.

>>thats just rediculous to beleive that and every one knows it not true yuor all just pissed offf people with bad experiences of a fiath

Actually, as religious experiences go around here, I can say mine were vastly more boring, than "bad". It's hard to get excited about some story book creature that never shows itself in any manner or form to anyone on this planet, but makes 'remote' huge demands of everyone.

I found the idea of the Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy, far more exciting and credible, than some twisted god being that exhibits the multiple personality syndrome of someone like "Sybil".

As far as your jesus goes. I'll be more than happy to stop bad-mouthing him when you provide us evidence that he ever walked this earth 2000 years ago.
Of course, you believe he was real based on this faith crap, which is enough for someone like yourself but not for those of us who actually use our brains for more than a skull-anchor.

Your religion is DYING DYING and DYING buddy.
(Did I mention it's DYING...yeah, I guess I did)

You best get used to this idea, as the days of you jesus freaks are numbered.
So you better hurry and hitch a ride to heaven on god's chariot before you're the last xtian left in your delusion.
Just curious about something though....Does god use those winged angels to pull his holy chariot, like santa uses flying reindeer to pull his ?

Religion is about as beneficial to humankind, as hard core gambling is for those making minimum wage.
Both will destroy one's life.
Both will bleed you dry of needed money.
Both are an addiction that is hard to conquer.
Both offer a false promise of some personal reward.

Yes indeed, I find every reason to rebel against most religions, especially yours allasbad.
Your brothers have done far too much damage in the time you have reigned and now it's time for those of us who actually use our brains, to take over this earth from the brain dead.

Now you be sure and come back and tell us how wonderful your god is and how he'll punish us at your request and how he'll send us all to hell.
We'll take that threat about as serious as we've taken the hundreds who came before you with the same.

Have a nice life, fundie


ATF (Who wonders where Astreja is going to stick that clue-by-four in fundie allasbad?)

Astreja said...

Where the "Son" don't shine, ATF! :-D

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