I happened upon your website, it made me sad to see the Ex-Christians and all of your stories..
How can people give up on God?
There will come a day when you will see that the Lord Jesus Christ is the one and only way.
I can't understand the point where anyone would say ok I am not a Christian anymore.. then you probably were never one.
The Lord says in His holy word that it is better for you to have never know me than to known me and to walk away or turn your bcak on Him.
I pray that you and your members will return to His way before its too late.
MaryG
These letters were published between January 2001 and February 2010. To view recent posts, go to The Main Blog at ExChristian.Net
41 comments:
Seems the Asylum has voided its bowels once more...
Nothing there to actually address, any more than one addresses the flatulation of pigs...
Oh dear ... Mary! Be real, madam! I was one of your sort for plus 35 years ... an evangelist and all that. How I regret leading so many astray! Mary, Mary ... please open your eyes but better still ... your Gospel has been around for some 2000 years - and has caused wars, broken lives, horrendous splits in churches, burings at the stake and ... goodness me ... get sme history into your head! Take your head out of the sands of denial and look around you! By the way, we who HAVE seen the light and reality do not need you to tell us whether we believed or not - this is so typical of Christian defensiveness! Bless you, dear Mary and may that blessing open your eyes to reality! God is a figment of your imagination and a creation of some poor misguided people. Regards from Plato.
How can people give up on God? The same way they give up on Santa Claus. They increasingly see the improbability of such a thing, and they just stop believing. Or maybe they see the emptiness of the promises. Or maybe they realize that the people proclaiming it were telling tales. Doesn't really matter, when you actually stop to think about it, believing literally in one myth is about is silly as believing in any other.
hmmm, maybe she is right...
Mary,
By what authority have you determined that everyone here has never been a Christian? We have ex-ministers, theology students, and many who devoted their lives to Jesus Christ for decades. How is it that you can make a blanket statement like that? Did you know that there are hundreds of thousands of Christians who don't consider you to be a Christian? There are over 33,000 denominations of Christianity, each proclaiming theirs to be the truth and the light. What makes your particular interpretation the one that can prejudge all on this site?
I suggest you hang around for a while and learn more. I also suggest you do some reading to open your mind. Specifically, I would read Losing Faith in Faith by Dan Barker. I may help you understand where many here are now in their lives. It may also hep you with your prejudice...
Grrrroan. Yet another christian telling us EX-christians that we were never as deluded as she is. I appreciate the compliment, but it does get rather boring hearing the same thing over and over and over again from the faith-heads.
Why is it that it's always the ones who 'happen' upon our website who want to come in here and fix us?
I beg to differ, sweetie, I was as good a Christian as you are for many, many years. The difference in us is, I learned better, you have not.
Mary, I understand your sentiment and yet you make a fundamentally poor leap of logic. That those who do not believe in Jesus do not accept that their may exist a higher power under the heading of "God"
I think to see the truth of this one needs look at nature and not a book or philosophy. The natural order is a journey of evolution;life moving toward an ulitmate point. "God" if such a thing exists is, in my humble opinion, this pinnicle of evolution. God is the spark that gave rise to the universe, the "big" in the "big" bang.
If you examine with an eye that truly seeks to find, I believe "God" can be found as a ribbon or truth that flows thru all philosophies and religions.
He (she,it) is not an interactive creature, rather an observer who wonders why;in a universe that provides us with all we need to live happy and content lives,we choose to live lives filled with hatred and pain.
Really want to find God mary? I can teach you how. Go to your local hospital as a volunteer and go to the hospice section. There find the homosexual dying of Aids, the one no one wants to touch. Hold his hand and speak words of comfort to him and there;in his eyes awash in gratitude; there you will see God.
Or go to the orphange and spend time with the unwanted child, or the retirement home and listen to the boring stories of the old man no one comes to see anymore and there in their gratefull smiles you will see God.
Make God happy my being kind and loving to his creations large and small, all the rest is window dressing.
You know Mary, once when I was 17 I prayed so hard to the Lord that I saw a brilliant white light. It was oval shaped. Really impressed me till years later when I finally figured out that what I saw was in my mind and not real at all! I saw what I wanted to see! The human mind can be a tricky thing! God is no more real than the Easter Bunny! Wake up and live your life for you and not some make believe God!
I also just happened to bump across this website and found it to be an excellent and constructive site.Frankly I think that people's responses to your post are far to kind dear(although the pig response was fitting)What part of EX in ex-christian site do you not comprehend. Surely there are plenty of christian sites around.People like you bring apon yourselfs any ridicule that may come your way.How arrogant and rude! You REALLY need to get a life.
Mary wrote: "The Lord says in His holy word that it is better for you to have never know me than to known me and to walk away or turn your bcak on Him."
I actually agree with you – assuming that I am reading you correctly (your spelling and grammar leave bit to be desired – which makes me wonder if the reason people DO remain Christians is based on a fundamental inability to form sentences).
I believe that there really is no such thing as an ex-Christian – in the sense that Christianity is a fable and at no point is anyone “really” a Christian – unless it is simply in the social sense (i.e. they go to church and it makes them feel good).
I also agree that it is better to never know god than to know him. Far better to have a happy, full life without the complete mind-fuck of faith being thrown in to complicate and confuse. I sure wish I had the decade and a half back that I lost following hatred and bigotry wrapped in the robes of fictional carpenter…
But, since I can not “un-do” my walk (and regardless of what opinions you may need to make you feel less threatened by enlightened folk – it actually was a “quality” walk by any measure) I am glad I have the ability (my mind is not totally mush) to reclaim my life and call myself an ex-Christian, ex-cult member, ex-moron…
I will hope (for that is just as effective as prayer, if not more so) that your eyes are open and you are able to shake the chains of an empty, vain faith.
Ahhhh, These christians.... judgemental til the end...
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged. (Matthew 7:1 and Luke 6:37)
Too bad they never read the bible !
Come join us and develop a better critical and objective mind. With more accurate information you'll definitely be a better judge ... since you seem to enjoy judging !
Alexander,
Your god is no more likely than Mary's.
Your admonition to charity is helpful, although she is a "true" Christian (in her words), not a deist like you and she values Jesus higher than any physical issues here on earth. Her job is to see that everyone is saved, not that they are healed or loved by her.
Nice try, but you're going to hell with the rest of us. Have a nice day...
Mary,
Tell me the old, old story!
Next please!
Alexander said:
"Really want to find God Mary? I can teach you how. Go to your local hospital as a volunteer and go to the hospice section. There find the homosexual dying of Aids, the one no one wants to touch. Hold his hand and speak words of comfort to him and there;in his eyes awash in gratitude; there you will see God.
Or go to the orphanage and spend time with the unwanted child, or the retirement home and listen to the boring stories of the old man no one comes to see anymore and there in their grateful smiles you will see God".
I have done lots of good things for others in my 73 yrs. on the planet and none of the good that I have done was done as a christian. And I can tell you I have never seen god, not the xian god or any other god.
Mary has to do some real thinking and allow herself to analyze what it is she actually believes in. She should read and understand her bible. I don't think she has read the bible. I believe that she goes blindly to church every chance she gets and allows the guy at the front with his collar on backwards to tell her what to believe. He no doubt skips over most of the nasty stuff in the bible because he's afraid he might frighten some of those poor deluded folks away.
Mary is a follower and needs to be lead around by these beliefs. There may be no hope for poor Mary.
MaryG, you asked:
"How can people give up on God?"
I answer: "by growing up and putting away childish things."
If you really study the history of Xianity, you'll discover many things (if you bring your mind and not your dogma (faith?)which will likely lead you to realize how absurd the belief system is.
I hope you will allow yourself to grow up someday, obviously you are not quite ready to see how ridiculous the claims of Xianity are.
BobG
MaryG:"I can't understand the point where anyone would say ok I am not a Christian anymore.. then you probably were never one."
O.k. Whatever makes you feel better.
It's not true, but I suspect that truth and reality aren't what your after anyway.
Dear MaryG,
Don't hold your breath on that one. I would rather have my eyes stapled open and my feet nailed to the floor than be a Christian again. Being a Christian is just plain misery.
MaryG,
I wonder if you are going to the Islamic Hell for not believing in Alah?
Maybe the Mormon Hell, but you get a chance to be witnessed to by elders in a holder area.
JW's don't believe in hell, therefore you are going to total destruction. You must similate.
If you don't speak in tongues, you are no saved truly.
What about the Tom Cruise religion? He says you are doomed. You just join him before its too late.
The Amish have seperated themselves from the world as commanded by the Bible. Follow them before its too late.
What about the Flying Speghetti monster? Are prepared to meet your doom with her?
Feel the wrath of Zeus for your disobedience!!
MaryG, You and I have many things in common. We think of those as myths and/or lies. I just added your angle on god to the list with the rest because they fail the same.
I am sure you parents planned to make you into an xtian at birth. Are you an ex-athiest?
Riley J.
From an interview with Drew Weston, author of "The Political Brain: The Role of Emotion in Deciding the Fate of the Nation"
"We found that partisans did a wonderful job of standing by their man. They were able to twirl the cognitive kaleidoscope until it came up with emotionally gratifying results, and they ended up believing whatever they wanted to believe. The most fascinating thing, though, was to watch what happened in the brain as they did it. Probably the two most important things I could say are: One, the reasoning circuits did not turn on.
They were supposed to be engaged in a simple reasoning test: Are A and B compatible or incompatible? They were always designed to be incompatible, so they can't both be true. But the circuits that have been shown to be active in dozens of studies where you give people reasoning tasks were essentially a dead zone. What turned on instead were circuits involved in emotion, particularly distress, and emotional regulation attempts to turn off that distress. The partisan brain was remarkably adept at doing that."
I think religious people have this same capacity to sublimate cognitive dissonance.
Mary, I am willing to bet that by you praying and nobody here converting back to x-tianity will be proof enough for me of two things, that God doesn't exist and prayer doesn't work....
Im so glad you have set me straight!
Mary G, in the ultra-unlikely event that you ever come back here, What does the "G" stand for, or dare I ask?
"Gullible"?
MaryG said "I can't understand the point where anyone would say ok I am not a Christian anymore.. then you probably were never one."
That's funny, because I feel the same way about people who claim to have once been atheists but now have "found god".
Once your eyes are truly opened to the world around you, how could you ever close them again and believe in myth?
Anon said,
"That's funny, because I feel the same way about people who claim to have once been atheists but now have "found god"
Yes you speak of people like Kirk Cameron who claimed to have been an atheist. These people are what I have seen refered to a lazy atheists. They just never gave a hoot about religion one way or another so they could be converted because they were very uninformed, but once you get all the facts as most of us have here, there is no way one could turn back.
By the way I am guilty of not being an exChristian. I once professed God belief, but I never bought into the bullshit of Christianity.
xrayman
MaryG: "I can't understand the point where anyone would say ok I am not a Christian anymore.. then you probably were never one."
No true Scotsman:
Argument: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
Reply: "But my uncle Angus, who is a Scotsman, likes sugar with his porridge."
Rebuttal: "Aye, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
Adjusted Argument:
MaryG: No "Christian", can ever leave the fold.
Dave8: But I, left the fold, as a Christian.
MaryG Rebuttal: Aye, but no "True Christian", can ever really leave the fold.
Point here, is that the only true Christian by this argument, is the one who will “never” be able to leave the fold; which dovetails quite nicely into a sequence of follow on fallacy options…
Moving the goalpost:
"Moving the goalposts is a debate fallacy in which one continually redefines the point of the discussion to avoid your opponent being able to provide a correct answer. Most often seen in Evolution vs Creationism debates. "Show me a transitional fossil between a whale and a fish." example shown. "Show me transitionals between those transitionals and each others." examples shown. "Show me the transitionals between THOSE samples and each other." Repeat ad absurdum.
This tactic is a sure admission that the person using it knows their position is untenable, but refuses to admit defeat."
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalpost"
Voltaire: "Christianity is the most ridiculous, the most absurd and bloody religion that has ever infected the world."
Wow Dave8, thanks for that. Having names to these logical fallacies makes things a lot easier. I have been researching them and memorizing them to better my arguments. They make the argument move much faster.
R. Black, it makes it easy for us to understand the issues, if only those we have to engage understood as well :-)
The christian goalpost movers, will continue to move the 'true christian' post by definition; they don't seem to handle rejection very well ;-)
MaryG, will likely never respond to her post... however, wanted to provide a more comprehensive response, since it's apparent that "You were never a Christian (True Christian, etc.)", seems to be a recurring theme.
Logical Response To: "You were never a true Christian statement"
No true Scotsman:
Argument: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
Reply: "But my uncle Angus, who is a Scotsman, likes sugar with his porridge."
Rebuttal: "Aye, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
---------------------------------------------
Adjusted Christian Argument:
Christian: No "Christian", can ever leave the fold.
Reply: But I, left the fold, as a Christian.
Christian Rebuttal: Aye, but no "True Christian", can ever really leave the fold.
Strategy: Applied to allow one to make an absolute statement, in order to substantiate a claim, or further build a case.
---------------------------------------------
Strategy: To establish an "origin" by which one can argue/extend their case.
Strength: If one allows the general statement to evolve into an "absolute" statement/argument, unchecked... then, it can be used
to build a case, where the conclusion(s), must be accepted as absolutely valid/true.
Weakness: Such a tactic, results in the following:
1) "A Dicto simpliciter" (Latin: "from a maxim without qualification" -- meaning 'from a universal rule').
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dicto_simpliciter
Making unqualified universal rules opens the door for "exceptions" to be presented. If an exception is presented, and the one making the claim refuses to withdraw/acknowledge the truth of a counter argument, then, the following fallacy is being committed.
2) Accident (fallacy). When an exception to the generalization is ignored.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_%28fallacy%29
The results of exposing the weakness of the "No True Scotsman" type argument, should force the removal of the statement until it can be "qualified".
---------------------------------------------
Alternative Responses When Challenged:
--Diversion(s), red herrings, etc.
--Moving the goalpost. A claimant will either use "no" qualifiers, or "many" qualifiers in their absolute statement (True Christian). In the case of the "No True Scotsman", the single qualifier is "those who don't put sugar on porridge". However, when challenged with an exception to the absolute claim which should force the removal of a universal Truth statement (True Christian, True Scotsman, etc.) the claimant begins "adding" support qualifiers, thereby "moving the goalpost" in the direction that "supports" their claim.
What this suggests to me, is the attempt to reconcile a logical bias, what was unwarranted to begin with.
The take away on this, is that focus should remain on the original claim until it is removed by the claimant as valid/true - they don't get to keep the point, they actually lose the point and need to own up to it. If the claimant refuses, then they aren't attempting to reason, such that their belief(s) can be understood as valid/true.
Possible Reasons:
-Cognitive stability. A person, who is seeking "self" validation for their state of mind - despite the argument at hand. Such a person may perceive their "self" "I"dentity, as fully dependent on the concept of their religion/religious beliefs, e.g., their self is diminished without an attachment to religion. A person who challenges a persons' belief(s), in this state of "I"dentity confusion, will have their work cut out for them. To attack/test a claimant's argument, is perceived by the claimant, as a personal attack; there is no win-win solution in such a scenario. One must overcome the claimant's inability to separate religious belief(s), and human value.
-Social benefit from a group, the mutual benefit received through group "reinforcement" and "support".
---------------------------------------------
On a personal note; I attempt to steer clear of those who I am not going to spend a "lot" of time with, that are in such a state of mind. To engage a person who has such an "I"dentity, and mental confusion requires a lot of time, trust, and knowledge/skill. The best most can do in a society as an individual (perhaps group) is to "keep such a person thinking", a healthy mind has a natural tendency to economize, by removing tasks (subconscious, etc.) that create mental fatigue, etc. In a sense, our mind attempts to seek the path of least resistance, or path that requires the least amount of energy in order to functionally operate.
A "thinking" person continues to search for answers (without making bold claims as fact)... A person, who is not engaged in thinking, is one who can possibly be identified by the following...
Cognitive Bias: "In psychology and cognitive science, confirmation bias is a tendency to search for or interpret new information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions and avoid information and interpretations which contradict prior beliefs. It is a type of cognitive bias and represents an error of inductive inference, or as a form of selection bias toward confirmation of the hypothesis under study or disconfirmation of an alternative hypothesis."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
MaryG wrote: “I can't understand the point where anyone would say ok I am not a Christian anymore.. then you probably were never one.”
Argument from personal incredulity: I can’t understand how it could be; therefore, it isn’t.
It’s paradoxical how a system of “thought” can be so degrading and yet so stupendously egotistical at the same time.
MaryG: "How can people give up on God?"
Complex Question: "Asks a question with an unjustified presupposition."
Let's just presuppose the existence of a million gods :-) How, could MaryG have given up on all of them so easily :-)
Mary G said:
"How can people give up on God?"
--
To Mary G (who will NEVER return to make her case here),
I don't think your phrase "give up on", is all that applicable here really, but let's go with it and see how it plays out.
If you concluded over time, that Astrology Readings were no better in predicting your future, than random chance, did you GIVE UP ON anything that was REAL, or was it more that you discovered it had no basis in reality in the first place?
A close friend convinced you that they had a keen talent for finding water beneath your property by using two sticks held out from their finger-tips; that would then point downwards when the sticks 'felt' the presence of water.
When your friend failed to discover water and had achieved nothing but many false 'hits' instead, did you GIVE UP ON a belief in something REAL, or did you instead just realize that your friend's belief in divining for water was based on their own false conclusions?
If I told you that aliens from Uranus land their spaceship in my corn-field every night there is a full moon, but when you come to see them land for yourself, all you see are flattened corn stalks that make a pretty patten; would you believe in my story at that point?
If all subsequent visits you made to see the alien ship land, met with the same results, would you GIVE UP ON them showing up for YOU, or would you conclude that I was deceiving you into believing in such spaceships from Uranus?
In all three of these little examples, there is a point where one realizes there is no substance behind the claim. In all three examples, one isn't really GIVING UP as much as one just concludes that something is awry and the claims are not based in truth or reality.
One can GIVE UP ON trying to bowl a perfect score, but the act of bowling is real, the ball is real, the pins are real and the only thing one is Giving Up On is one's personal ability to achieve that perfect score.
If your car gets a flat tire while driving and you find you don't have the muscle to loosen the lug nuts, you might GIVE UP ON trying to loosen those lug nuts.
However, the car is real, the lug nuts are real, the lug wrench is real and the failure to loosen those lug nuts is your own lack of muscle, which is also quite real as well.
Now, let's take a look at how faith in your god works out here.
You believe your god is real and that he hears your prayers, as you said you will 'pray for all of us' here.
You probably confirm your belief with things like; your prayers being answered from time to time, but just like that friend divining for water, you remember the times you thought god answered you but quickly forget about the times he didn't, thus concluding god must be real because he answered SOME prayers of yours.
Well, your divining friend also SOMETIMES finds water with their stick method, so they conclude their method surely is working.
Most members here concluded that your god doesn't exist because they could find no evidence for him. They prayed to him about serious problems, but no answer ever came and they were too wise to be fooled by the occasional small 'hit' from chance alone, to then believe this hit was god intervening in their lives.
If one ask god for 100 small things and we land up getting 10 of them, does that mean god really answered or was it chance alone?
One has to wonder why god chose not to answer the other 90 we asked for, and saying things like 'we can't understand god's mind' doesn't cut-it.
What about the serious problems folks have, that they pray to god to fix, but god remains silent instead. What does it take for your god to answer a xtian who has a truly serious problem in their lives?
What does it take for your god to grow a new arm or leg when one has lost it to some tragedy? Has anyone EVER seen a human grow back an arm or leg?
Why does your god SEEM to cure a sore throat, or cause cancer to go into remission, or help an alcoholic stop drinking, but fails to answer when the challenge is far more difficult and the results (or lack thereof) are far more apparent of something supernatural going on?
No Mary G., I don't think the phrase GIVE UP ON is really appropriate here.
Your god has to exist for one to give up on him and most of us became ex-xtians not because we gave-up-on your god, but because he didn't show himself to be from reality.
What we lost was the delusion that you still maintain, that your god exists outside your own mind and emotions.
All the evidence you have for your god being is no better than crop circles are to prove UFO's are landing in corn fields; no better than the belief that one can find water with sticks; no better than the pseudo-science of astrology is for predicting anyone's future.
The only possible tangible evidence you can offer is a book written by humans long ago and reprinted countless times throughout the centuries.
A book, that you claim was directly inspired by god himself, but yet contains more flaws within it's pages than a 5th grader's explanation of how all those animals could have been saved by Noah and his Ark.
Yes Mary G., we gave up on your god and while you can't seem to comprehend our logical reasons, we are quite certain that you'll never met your god buddy, nor will he ever spill his wrath upon our souls, for there are no souls and there is NO GOD to fear, or worship out there.
ATF (who just spent all this time writing into a black hole, because Mary will never return to read this)
Mary is a christian busybody who is boo-hooing over someone rejecting the fairy tale she believes in. How dare anyone do that!
Mary, read 1 Peter 4:15
But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a *busybody* in other men's matters.
Notice the "busybody" it mentions Mary? If you look in a mirror, you'll spot one.
Hey Mary, are the same Mary that was Jesus' mother? Could this be a sign perhaps?
Mary (had a little lamb)Said: How can people give up on God?
When he doesn't do his job that he promised to do. That's why.
Then of course, if you want to know how, you just do it. It's that simple.
Mary (had a little lamb) Said: The Lord says in His holy word that it is better for you to have never know me than to known me and to walk away or turn your bcak on Him.
Tell me Mary, what is a "Bcak"? I don't believe I have one of those. Is that some sort of "Universal" language that only God speaks? You must be speaking in "Heavenese" (Tounges).
It seems that most christians don't know how to spell.
Carl K. Said: How can people give up on God? The same way they give up on Santa Claus.
Well I know for a fact that the "Tooth Fairy" exists, and I don't care what you say Carl.
I can prove that the Tooth Fairy exists because they left a dollar under my pillow one night after I stuck my baby tooth underneath it.
Mary wrote:
"I can prove that the Tooth Fairy exists because they left a dollar under my pillow one night after I stuck my baby tooth underneath it"
--
I confess, it was me that left you the dollar.
Glad you still believe in me to this very day.
One correction though...I'm not a 'they', as there is only ONE of the toothfairy; unlike that trinity phony god person I compete with at times.
I'm short on funding these days, so may I have that dollar back please?
Please send all dollar bills to:
The Atheist Tooth Fairy Foundation
P.O. Box 666
ToothTown, USA
ATF (who thinks this idea will work far better than any prayer to god for dollar bills)
You can't do that to me ATF!!!
You Indian giver, you'll have to sue me for it.
Mary, Mary, quiet contrary how does my garden grow? wrote:
"You Indian giver, you'll have to sue me for it"
----
Dear Mary with the too long name,
I took a lone baby tooth from you in trade for one dollar I left you, so I don't why you think I left you an 'Indian'.
Besides, it would take more than a toothfairy, to fit a whole Indian under your pillow.
As far as this lawsuit thing goes, I'll leave it up to your 'free will' to send me that dollar I gave you long long ago, but the Indian must be returned to the Land of Wampum or a curse shall be placed upon your Garden for failure to do so.
And stop being so 'contrary' to.
Don't you know you're just suppose to comply with whatever you're brainwashed with as a child....shezzz
ATF (Who once met the fairy's under Mary's garden to)
ATF,
I need to actually keep the Indian to be honest.
You see, when my people (The Christians) came over here we felt the need to steal the land from the indians, because us christians felt like the indians needed to be forced to worship our "Bible God" named Christ.
Everyone knows that the Indians practiced witchcraft and followed other deceiving spirits, so we felt the need to conform the indians to our beliefs, because that is what christians do.
So God told us in a vision to come to this land called Amerika and set the indians straight and take their land away from them, because God was going to give their land to us, so it was ripe for the taken.
As for the one dollar, sorry I already put it in my offering plate at church.
Mary, mary quiet contrary how does your garden grow? wrote:
"I need to actually keep the Indian to be honest.......
As for the one dollar, sorry I already put it in my offering plate at church"
----
Oh Mary with the growing garden,
I thought about talking to the weeds in your garden, to make them overrun the place, but I came up with an alternate solution, out of god-like compassion, just like the xtian god ALWAYS has (or not).
Because you wish to keep the Indian and yet gave away the cherished magical dollar, you are now to tell the Indian to go to your church and get that dollar back.
If the church folks refuse the Indian's request, have the Indian threaten to do a rain-dance.
Either I'll have back my dollar, or the great Indian Spirit; "Stench Rain Cloud", will make it pour sour rain inside the church. If the sour rain comes to pass, the church will have a new definition for the word "PEW".
ATF (who wonders if god smokes a peace-pipe)
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