From Jamie
I think that I am in the process of de-conversion, though I'm not sure. What I'd really like more information on is the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. Growing up Seventh-day Adventist, prophecy was a big 'selling point'. While I don't remember all of what I was taught, it seemed to make sense at the time. Only now am I realizing that I've never checked out the "facts". I didn't question the preachers' version of history, nor did I check to see if the timelines fit the events they said they did.
I read SOMEWHERE on the net (though I can't find it...I was hoping it was somewhere here), where someone was debunking the 10 horns, showing that there were other nations around that were conveniently ignored when fitting the 10 nations to 10 horns prophecy. Does anyone know more about it?
I would think that SOMEWHERE on the net, there would be a systematic debunking of Seventh-day Adventist prophecy. However, most sites that criticize Adventists seem to be put up by people who have become, through some miracle, even crazier and more fanatical than the people in the church of my youth.
Any help here would be greatly appreciated...it might break the final chains of fear as I go through my 'de-conversion'.
Thanks.
These letters were published between January 2001 and February 2010. To view recent posts, go to The Main Blog at ExChristian.Net
17 comments:
Jamie:
Welcome! There is a lot of support for you here. Good luck with your quest.
One good reference is the Skeptics Annotated Bible at:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.htm
I'm sure many others will follow.
Jamie go back in the archives to Jan.21'07 to "Why Christians are Delusional".I think it will help you.(click on podcast 72 virgins)
*There are several secular recovery programs---Rational Recovery,S.O.S and others,..look them up!
Good luck!
Re:
I read SOMEWHERE on the net (though I can't find it...I was hoping it was somewhere here), where someone was debunking the 10 horns, showing that there were other nations around that were conveniently ignored when fitting the 10 nations to 10 horns prophecy. Does anyone know more about it?
You have it backward. This or any other claim like it does not need to be disproved. It needs to be proved. It's not proved and likely will never be proved. Ten Horns, ten countries, whatever -- people try to "fit" modern things into old dusty "prophecies" and it's nothing but a Rohrscott test; one reads into these whatever they want to read into it. Think about this, when was the last time you ever read any kind of "prophecy" which was anything more than vague ramblings? There's never anything specific and concrete predicted -- it's vague on purpose so anything can fit, much like the horoscope in the paper. No, my friend, there are no supernatural answers to things; there is only the natural world.
Woops,..got you confused with another poster.You didn't say you were an addict,....sorry.
*I visited a S.D.A. church three years ago.They were really into vegetarianism,saturday service,and crappy old hymns.
Peace....freedy
Wikipedia has an interesting article on various interpretations of the Book of Revelations (with mentions of Daniel) here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whore_of_Babylon
The entire bible was written by people on opium and cannabis. They thought dreams held knowledge of the future, they thought people held in a trance-like state by drugs could also prediict the future. It's all man made garbage, give it up, you'll never find any real answers in the bible, no one does really, they pretend they do, that's all.
Hi Jamie,
This isn't particularly about any prophecies or ten horns or anything, but the following extracts on the authorship of both Daniel and Revelation may be interesting to you:
(They come from an uncopyrighted article by Jim Blanston available here: http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/aotb.htm)
Daniel
This book is traditionally ascribed to Daniel (who lived in the 6th century BC). In this book, he tells of his kidnapping by Babylonians from Jerusalem. But since there is absolutely no historical record of a Babylonian attack on Jerusalem until about 400 years later, the actual date is estimated to have been in the 2nd century BC, by an anonymous author.
Although the traditionalists tend to categorize this book with the other so-called "prophetical" books, it is important to note that this book is not even mentioned in the directory of famous Hebrew writings, the "Wisdom of Sirach" (200 BC).
Also, although the traditionalists ascribe this book to one author, a significant portion (2:4 through 7:28) is written in another language, Aramaic (the remainder of the book being in Hebrew).
Furthermore, historians note numerous historical inaccuracies mentioned in this book (when compared against other historical records of that time, as well as other books of the Old Testament).
Revelation
Again, attributed to St. John the Evangelist, but scholars again disagree. But there are so many linguistic differences between this book and the Gospel of John that it is clear that they were written by different people.
This book is the cornerstone of the fundamentalists, the evangelicals, and the millenarianists. It records a purported "vision", and Christians are fond of tying its enigmatic allegory to current events, to show that the end of the world is near. And they are generally successful, since this book is so obscure that one may elicit practically any interpretation from it. In fact, ever since it was written (around AD 100), people of every generation have been able to link it to their own period of time.
The numerous references to "a thousand years" in chapter 20 has led many to consider that doomsday will occur at the end of a millenium. The "Judgement Day" hysteria that occurred as the year 1000 approached is a historical fact. Similarly, social psychologists predict that, as we approach the year 2000, the same hysteria will occur.
Many scholars believe that Revelations is actually a collection of separate works by various unknown authors. One reason they believe this is because the book is a strange collection of Greek and Hebrew idioms. And some believe that it was never intended to be viewed as a "prophecy", but as an allegory showing the crisis of faith at that period of time (of the Roman persecutions).
(The article also gives similar critique to almost every other book of the bible.)
It's interesting to note that if Daniel was actually written 200 years after it was supposedly written then a lot of it's 'prophecies' would actually have been known history at that point...
I think a similar thing can be said about Jesus prophesying the destruction of the Temple.
Welcome Jamie!
I myself have some mixed ideas about 'prophecy'. How can you tell if something written was 'foreseen' thousands of years ago, or if it was something written by those who wish to make certain events come about for their own political and/or social economic agendas? People are notorious for making any 'prophecies', be it from a bible or from tarot cards, rather self-fulfilling. But, I've also seen some pretty weird shit over the years, too, that I can't really give explanation for. Such as precognitive type stuff. But, I'm still extremely skeptically when it comes to anything to do with biblical references. Congrats on freeing your mind and your heart from the shackles of religious dogma! There's a lot more out there!
You have it backward. This or any other claim like it does not need to be disproved. It needs to be proved.
Agreed. However, I'm thinking more about self-defense. Eventually, the "What about prophecy" question is going to come up, and I'd like to be able to answer with facts showing that we fit events to the prophecy by discarding other historical data.
Admittedly, I'm trying to take a shortcut here, rather than getting out an Adventist prophecy book and a stack of encyclopedias. I'm "history-impaired" at the best of times, so it will be difficult for me to find those nations that 'fit the bill' in regards to prophecy, but weren't included because they would invalidate the prophecy.
Hello Jamie,
Have you taken a look at the secular web at:
http://www.infidels.org/
I'm not sure if you'll find a specific answer to your question, but there is some good stuff on there. Try using key words such as 'Daniel' or 'ten horns' etc.
By the way, notice what it says about 'sealing' or 'not sealing' the prophecies at the end of the books of Daniel and Revelation.
In Daniel 12:9, 'Daniel', supposedly living in the 6th century B.C., is told that the words of his prophecies are 'sealed up' until 'the time of the end', thus providing a handy excuse as to why the book 'went missing' until the 2nd century B.C. (as noted in spacemonk's post above. The earliest time that the book is mentioned by any other source is around 120 B.C. if I remember correctly).
In Revelation 22:10, however, the angel tells 'John', who was obviously well acquainted with the book of Daniel, NOT to seal up the words of prophecy on his scroll, because 'the time is near'.
It is now about 2,150 years since Daniel was 'unsealed'.
It's about 1,900 years since Revelation 'wasn't sealed'.
It's no wonder that even many Christians down the ages haven't trusted those two frauds.
Good luck with your search.
Do a search on Google for
Bidstrup.com. This is a good starting point for info on just where and how the bible came into being. "Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free"
http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm
Thought this might be easier.
Hi again Jamie,
I came across a catholic website debunking the SDA interpretation of the three/ten horns prophecy:
http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/3horns.html
Not that I'm recommending Catholicism, it just has some good points in this case. Although, like you, I'm not particularly familiar with the period and all of the nations mentioned either, I'm sure there's something worth your time in all that.
Thank you, Spacemonk,
That is exactly what I was looking for...
Thank you, Spacemonk,
That is exactly what I was looking for...
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