Against Christianity or Christians?
Hey, i've just visitied your site. i was just wondering
something. are you against all christians or just
christianity? what i mean is, are you making a
generalisation that ALL christians are unsupportive,
arrogant idiots or what?
brad mccoy
RE
Hello Brad,
It is not my intent to make generalizations about people who categorize themselves with Christianity. However, since my de-conversion, I have come across some very interesting characters, to say the least. It does occur to me that to be labeled guilty by association is a bit unfair, but when you belong to a group, any group, and you notice so much nonsense going on in that group, re-evaluation of your participation with that group is warranted.
The point is, there are good people, and bad, in any group. That observation alone does not prove, or disprove, the validity or claims of a group. This I will grant. But when so much is fouled up in the way Christianity plays out in reality, coupled with the claim that the Holy Spirit is supposedly guiding the true adherents of the cult into ALL TRUTH, Pilate's cry of "What is truth?" is understandable. Consider this, if Jesus Christ is really building his church, it seems he likes extreme disunity, painful atrocity, and outright ignorance to be practiced in prolificacy. He is building it himself, he says, not us, so he gets all the credit and all the blame for it's ruined condition throughout history. This is the beginning of my doubt, but not the end, as is witnessed by all the rest of the material on my site.
RE
Sunday 4/7/2002 11:05 P.M.
hey dave. thanks for they reply.
may i just ask of you: firstly, simply because christians aren't perfect,
and because, like all groups, there are the bad and the good, do you think
that this is necessarily a reflection of the faith itself? because to me it
seems that you have a problem against christians, not christianity, and yet
you take it out on the religion itself? if not, i'm just curious what it is
you have against christianity itself?
as for christ building up his church, firstly i would say that good outcomes
can come of bad things. there's a lot of disunity and crap in the church,
true. but that's just a reflection of humanity. christian faith doesn't
promote perfection in humans, rather it means we are (or should be) aware of
our failings and recognise that sin is at the root of it. the holy spirit
cannot make us perfect as long as we are still in our flesh, and as long as
we are still in this world. therefore it is clearly impossible for the
church to be perfect as well?
take care.
brad.
ps. i hope you don't take my writing you as being patronising or whatever.
i've simply got a different viewpoint on things, and i like to talk to
people with different beliefs or ideas from me. i seem to enjoy arguing.
RE>Brad,
You're reasoning in your post seems to imply the following presuppositional positions:
Don't kill the messenger for the sake of the message. The messenger and the message have nothing to do with each other. The messenger is after all, only a messenger, and has no effect on the validity of the message. The message stands alone, outside the life choices of the messenger.
This might be true, except when the message is supernatural, un-provable, and fantastic. Fantastic messages demand fantastic evidences. The primary and strongest evidences of the reality and validity of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, touted by evangelists of every ilk, is supposedly attested to in the changed lives of believers. Outside the Bible, there is no historic evidence of any of the claims about Jesus Christ. There is no external evidences witnessing to any of the miraculous stories in the Bible. In fact, if we are to be honest, the amazing little stories in the Bible quite strikingly resemble the fantastic stories of every other religion on the planet. God, supposedly talked to men in the past, according to the Bible, but in these last days, we only have the Bible, written by believers, for believers and to believers. Like any other cult's book this book supports the agenda of the cult. Don't say here that just because there is no external evidence for the stories in the Bible that the stories are not true. If you do, I'll respond that any and all religions could say the same. I doubt you would accept that type of reasoning by a Mormon about his book.
My disillusionment may have started with people, but it was solidified, and supported by study of the Bible. The messenger are said to be led by the Holy Spirit, GOD ALMIGHTY HIMSELF, who is perfectly flawless. Yet, those led by Him are less than perfect. God is perfect and sinless, yet was somehow able to create a world that could become less than perfect, in fact, he knew it would be less than perfect and did it anyway. He knew he would end up throwing millions of his created beings into hell forever and ever, yet still he does it. I would submit to you that warning Adam not to eat the apple is analogous to me warning my child not to play in the street or they might get hurt. My child disobeys me and runs into the street. So, in response, I jump in my car and run him down. Remember, God is Sovereign over all, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omni-everything, according to Christianity. He cannot be surprised, overpowered, thwarted, argued with or defied. The only logical conclusion, if Christianity is true, is that God is one mean, unjust bastard. He purposely made a world of people who's destiny, outside of a handful of chosen people, was eternal torment. Why? For His glory! This god sounds to me like he has an ego problem more than anything else. To be God, he would not need anything. If he needed anything, it would suggest some lack in himself. If he has a lack in himself, of any kind, then he is less than omni-something-or-other. You can go round and round with this and be faced with only two conclusions: Either it doesn't make sense, or it doesn't make sense. The only thing a believer can do faced with this logic, is to say that God can do what he wants to do because he is god. RIGHT! THAT PROVES IT!
This subject is far to big for email, and that is why I have such an extensive website, which pales in comparison with hundreds of other websites like mine out there. The messengers are not perfect. If you spend any time studying the Bible, you will discover that it is less than perfect as well. Since the only evidences we have of the validity of this "life changing perfect message" is in changed lives, and the Bible, I think it more than reasonable to demand that the evidence conform to the fantastic claims of the message.
For your consideration: Did Israel’s Exodus From Egypt Actually Happen? and, BIBLICAL INFALLIBILITY OR MENTAL HEALTH.
Both articles are By Lee Salisbury, a former pastor.
something. are you against all christians or just
christianity? what i mean is, are you making a
generalisation that ALL christians are unsupportive,
arrogant idiots or what?
brad mccoy
RE
Hello Brad,
It is not my intent to make generalizations about people who categorize themselves with Christianity. However, since my de-conversion, I have come across some very interesting characters, to say the least. It does occur to me that to be labeled guilty by association is a bit unfair, but when you belong to a group, any group, and you notice so much nonsense going on in that group, re-evaluation of your participation with that group is warranted.
The point is, there are good people, and bad, in any group. That observation alone does not prove, or disprove, the validity or claims of a group. This I will grant. But when so much is fouled up in the way Christianity plays out in reality, coupled with the claim that the Holy Spirit is supposedly guiding the true adherents of the cult into ALL TRUTH, Pilate's cry of "What is truth?" is understandable. Consider this, if Jesus Christ is really building his church, it seems he likes extreme disunity, painful atrocity, and outright ignorance to be practiced in prolificacy. He is building it himself, he says, not us, so he gets all the credit and all the blame for it's ruined condition throughout history. This is the beginning of my doubt, but not the end, as is witnessed by all the rest of the material on my site.
RE
Sunday 4/7/2002 11:05 P.M.
hey dave. thanks for they reply.
may i just ask of you: firstly, simply because christians aren't perfect,
and because, like all groups, there are the bad and the good, do you think
that this is necessarily a reflection of the faith itself? because to me it
seems that you have a problem against christians, not christianity, and yet
you take it out on the religion itself? if not, i'm just curious what it is
you have against christianity itself?
as for christ building up his church, firstly i would say that good outcomes
can come of bad things. there's a lot of disunity and crap in the church,
true. but that's just a reflection of humanity. christian faith doesn't
promote perfection in humans, rather it means we are (or should be) aware of
our failings and recognise that sin is at the root of it. the holy spirit
cannot make us perfect as long as we are still in our flesh, and as long as
we are still in this world. therefore it is clearly impossible for the
church to be perfect as well?
take care.
brad.
ps. i hope you don't take my writing you as being patronising or whatever.
i've simply got a different viewpoint on things, and i like to talk to
people with different beliefs or ideas from me. i seem to enjoy arguing.
RE>Brad,
You're reasoning in your post seems to imply the following presuppositional positions:
Don't kill the messenger for the sake of the message. The messenger and the message have nothing to do with each other. The messenger is after all, only a messenger, and has no effect on the validity of the message. The message stands alone, outside the life choices of the messenger.
This might be true, except when the message is supernatural, un-provable, and fantastic. Fantastic messages demand fantastic evidences. The primary and strongest evidences of the reality and validity of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, touted by evangelists of every ilk, is supposedly attested to in the changed lives of believers. Outside the Bible, there is no historic evidence of any of the claims about Jesus Christ. There is no external evidences witnessing to any of the miraculous stories in the Bible. In fact, if we are to be honest, the amazing little stories in the Bible quite strikingly resemble the fantastic stories of every other religion on the planet. God, supposedly talked to men in the past, according to the Bible, but in these last days, we only have the Bible, written by believers, for believers and to believers. Like any other cult's book this book supports the agenda of the cult. Don't say here that just because there is no external evidence for the stories in the Bible that the stories are not true. If you do, I'll respond that any and all religions could say the same. I doubt you would accept that type of reasoning by a Mormon about his book.
My disillusionment may have started with people, but it was solidified, and supported by study of the Bible. The messenger are said to be led by the Holy Spirit, GOD ALMIGHTY HIMSELF, who is perfectly flawless. Yet, those led by Him are less than perfect. God is perfect and sinless, yet was somehow able to create a world that could become less than perfect, in fact, he knew it would be less than perfect and did it anyway. He knew he would end up throwing millions of his created beings into hell forever and ever, yet still he does it. I would submit to you that warning Adam not to eat the apple is analogous to me warning my child not to play in the street or they might get hurt. My child disobeys me and runs into the street. So, in response, I jump in my car and run him down. Remember, God is Sovereign over all, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omni-everything, according to Christianity. He cannot be surprised, overpowered, thwarted, argued with or defied. The only logical conclusion, if Christianity is true, is that God is one mean, unjust bastard. He purposely made a world of people who's destiny, outside of a handful of chosen people, was eternal torment. Why? For His glory! This god sounds to me like he has an ego problem more than anything else. To be God, he would not need anything. If he needed anything, it would suggest some lack in himself. If he has a lack in himself, of any kind, then he is less than omni-something-or-other. You can go round and round with this and be faced with only two conclusions: Either it doesn't make sense, or it doesn't make sense. The only thing a believer can do faced with this logic, is to say that God can do what he wants to do because he is god. RIGHT! THAT PROVES IT!
This subject is far to big for email, and that is why I have such an extensive website, which pales in comparison with hundreds of other websites like mine out there. The messengers are not perfect. If you spend any time studying the Bible, you will discover that it is less than perfect as well. Since the only evidences we have of the validity of this "life changing perfect message" is in changed lives, and the Bible, I think it more than reasonable to demand that the evidence conform to the fantastic claims of the message.
For your consideration: Did Israel’s Exodus From Egypt Actually Happen? and, BIBLICAL INFALLIBILITY OR MENTAL HEALTH.
Both articles are By Lee Salisbury, a former pastor.