Spiritual idiots
From Rev Bob Pyle, MA
As a nondenominational minister, I am disturbed and enraged by the fact that many people who leave the Church do so because of the dumb actions of certain believers. The idea is to concentrate on God, and not his alleged flock.
A classic case to make my point is the organization CUFI (Christians United for Israel), which is led by a self-deluded, spiritual idiot named John Hagee. His big thing is we are to nuke Iran. This is to precipitate a violent response from Muslims, and in the aftermath, Christ is supposed to return to establish His kingdom.
There is NOT one word in Scripture to support nor validate this stupidity on the part of Hagge & his flock. Therefore, I strongly recommend you give thought that with "friends" such as Hagee & his biblical illiterates who are quite willing to commit murder, Christ does not need any enemies.
Enough said.
tag: John Hagee, Nuke Iran, CUFI,
As a nondenominational minister, I am disturbed and enraged by the fact that many people who leave the Church do so because of the dumb actions of certain believers. The idea is to concentrate on God, and not his alleged flock.
A classic case to make my point is the organization CUFI (Christians United for Israel), which is led by a self-deluded, spiritual idiot named John Hagee. His big thing is we are to nuke Iran. This is to precipitate a violent response from Muslims, and in the aftermath, Christ is supposed to return to establish His kingdom.
There is NOT one word in Scripture to support nor validate this stupidity on the part of Hagge & his flock. Therefore, I strongly recommend you give thought that with "friends" such as Hagee & his biblical illiterates who are quite willing to commit murder, Christ does not need any enemies.
Enough said.
tag: John Hagee, Nuke Iran, CUFI,
Comments
Rev Pyle. you are just as much at fault for perpuating the LIE that there is a "god".
I wish you bible thumpers would learn the true origins of the bible and the myths it re-hashed. Learn something about the ancient Egyptian religion.
Where does Rev Pyle fall? I could care less. I did not leave just because of the people- it was more than that, even though it was part of it. The biggest reason I left was I just could not buy into the myths- not the virgin birth, communion, the crucifixion, none of it.
Now the Rapturists: I have one thing to say, the only god they will see descending from the sky is a nuke, if they live that long to see that much.
First off, I doubt anyone here is a fan of Mr. Hagee.
Second, you seem concerned that people leave the church because of what they see in other christians -- their behaviors, their manifest attitudes, their expressed/stated beliefs.
Observing other Christians is the ONLY visible way to ascertain what it means to be Christians, and what happens to people when they become Christian. Thinking people view the evidence of what has happened among all the others and rationally (and quite reasonably) decide for themselves "If that's what Christians are, I don't want to be one," and they walk out from the Church.
And it's not the occasional truly messed up wacko that drives people away. What drives people away from Churches are the prevailing attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors common to the majority of professing Christians -- hatred, backbiting, intolerance, segregation, exclusion of others, etc.
And then thinking people, having viewed the evidence in the lives of all those Christians, start actually reading the book that all these people supposedly swear by. Thinking people have little choice but to walk away from the church.
I didn't leave christianity because of people, I left because I could no longer fool myself into believing that a "loving" God would send even 1 of his "beloved" children to an eternity of hell for any reason whatsoever. It never really made sense to me, in the 20 years I was a christian, but I chose to ignore it.. But it just came to a day when I couldn't ignore it anymore...
Also, it doesn't help your case to attack those within your own religion and call them idiots. You may have done better to say they were misguided... of course, that opens up the obvious question: Could you be the misguided one?
Think about it,
The Walruss
if a bit to the right of Adolph Hitler in their political beliefs.
Over a period of years, I just grew
sick and tired of fundamentalism.
It caused me nothing but fear and
guilt, alienation from my peers in
high school, and some very unreal
expectations of life. I gradually
came to realise I was living my life not as a contemporary human
being, but the lifestyle of a
long-gone mideast civilization who had more than their share of
superstition and hang-ups.
I do agree that John Hagee and others like him are power-crazed
madmen, people who would have no
hesitation on seeing the deaths of
millions if it would serve their
sick agenda.
It almost makes me wish there would
be a Judgement Day. I would love
to see God look down at Hagee and
say "You are responsible for the
deaths and suffering of millions.
I hope you've got a good excuse!"
I'd like to see that fat dork try
to wiggle out of that one!
Although Hagee might reply "Causing
death and suffering? Gee God, in the Old Testament you were pretty good at that yourself!"
"The idea is to concentrate on God, and not his alleged flock."
People cannot concentrate on anything but his "alleged flock" because this is the only alleged manifestation that this alleged god has, because this alleged god does not exist.
If Christians did actually concentrate on this alleged god and not on his "alleged flock," then they would eventually realize that this alleged god is not there, which is what happened to me.
Your plight is laughable at best. Your just as intellectually challenged as those you accuse of stupidity. The god or gods of any religion are all imaginary constructs of ancient humans that are still being perpetuated on modern society. None of which exist. In you haste to point your finger at other idiots, you’ve managed to overlook the most important one........find a mirror. As suggested, educate yourself.
Just this last week, we have had an invitation to a church leader's retirement party revoked - "people won't cope". In fairness, they have re-established that invite, but the damage has been done.
And that continued and continuing rejection by "the flock" led me to question my beliefs, and in doing so, I dug and dug and found there was nothing underneath them. I was told on Saturday that I had thrown the baby out with the bathwater - no, I drained the bathwater out and then found there was no baby.
The actions of the church towards me have been thoroughly detestable. Interestingly most people who call themselves Christians agree, although very few can be bothered to do anything about it. And if such Christians are "the aroma of Christ", "the salt of the earth" and all the other Biblical phrases then either they're doing it so badly that it has the opposite effect, or it's just not real to begin with. "They will know you by the love you have for one another" - like throwing people out or decrying people because they're different??? It's all bullshit.
"There is NOT one word in Scripture to support nor validate this stupidity on the part of Hagge & his flock. Therefore, I strongly recommend you give thought that with "friends" such as Hagee & his biblical illiterates who are quite willing to commit murder, Christ does not need any enemies."
Mr. Pyle, while all of us of course favor your application towards non-violence and stirring more trouble in the global arena, your words about the bible not supporting this type of behavoir and referncing Hagge and others as stupid to suggest as much, and further your defense of Christ not needing more enemies, are all well apart the biblical message and practice and exposes your lack of knowledge of what you speak.
Consistent with what most studied atheists fully know, most biblical adherents, and yes, even those calling themselves reverends and other mouthpieces from the pulpit, believers are vaguely aware of the actual biblical content they endorse and reference.
Firstly, the bible is chock full of accounts of "god's warriors" throughout the Hebrew culture killing and pillaging other cultures not supporting their god. In other words, just like the radical Muslim message: worship their god and no others, or they were justified in killing you - women, babies, old, sick, animals - everything, and they DID just that. God ("Yahweh/Jehovah of Armies - the god of fire and war), makes this very clear and ordered or enacted more murder than Hitler and Stalin combined.
You could use a lesson in the book you hold alliance to and label others as biblically illiterate about.
Almost all the biblical heroes from Moses to David and beyond were ALL murderers of the highest degree and make this Hagge seem like mother Theresa.
Finally, Christ was not concerned about taking on more enemies. In fact, his message was that of revolt (against Roman occupation of Judea) and made many references about taking up "the sword" and acting upon a holy war against his enemies, just as these kooky Muslims do now. This was what justified the holy crusades. Jesus' message to others was about stirring up a revolution and becoming martyrs if necessary to uphold his ideas of true faith or else. Most of his know followers did just that.
While there are some select quotes by Jesus (the ones the churches predominantly promote - yet scholars state were not even his words but rather words the church added long after his death) that speak of non-violence, the greater message was about uprise and action.
His whole Jerusalem campaign was to band together with a "Legion of Angels" to fight off the outsiders. To this day, Xtian groups see his return as one of war and cleansing of those not supportive of only him. How is this different from the Muslim radicals? All Hagge is doing is mimicking that woeful bible. If you have a problem with him, then you need to take this up with his source - YOUR bible.
Arguing with this idiot (that's right, folks, he's just an idiot) over the existence of God is another topic altogether. If he wants to focus on Christians leaving Christianity because of Christians . . . fine. I have no problem with focusing on how much BS this idea is full of.
I've had to sit through the lecture many a time myself - from every flavor of Christian, from the most psychotic fundie to the most liberal hippie gay Christian you could find anywhere. Truth be told, we're never going to get through to them, but the truth has to be spoken. Hope somebody can find this idiot's contact information.
Your brilliant discernment is unquestionably the mark of a superior brand of Christianity. It is dedicated soldiers of God like you that bridge the yawning chasms of hell for the less intelligently bless followers of Savior Jesus.
Please stop by any time and lift your blinding light of truth upon our dark and rocky path.
I was just getting ready to send that bloated goat (Hagee) my welfare check...YOU sir, have just added a wing to your heavenly mansion in the New Jerusalem.
When we are neighbors in glory, you MUST come by for pie and coffee. My treat !!
Till then,
Billybee
Others have said it. I'll repeat: Christians are the only "manifestation" there is for their religion. Christians spend a great deal of time and energy explaining "the false prophets", the "we're still sinners too", the "he/she is still forgiven".
The fact that there are so many versions of Christianity, so many alleged "bad apples", so many "yeah, but sinner" replies, ought to tell you something about what you are believing in.
It ought to, but it doesn't seem to.
Surely this title, is actually a 'rhetorical' statement [grin] ;at least when it comes to any, and ALL, spiritual contact with the bible god anyway.
"The idea is to concentrate on God, and not his alleged flock"
Okay Reverend, how do you suggest we make "spiritual" contact with your 'true' god?
I've heard of several means to do so, including things like:
1. Mind-altering drugs, such as LSD
2. Forcing oneself to stay awake for more than 36 hours.
3. Using magnetic field stimulus on certain parts of the very human physical brain.
4. Getting caught up in any group type of brainwashing; especially when it includes working people up into an emotional frenzy.
5. Shutting down all cognitive sections of one's brain and letting one's emotions take total precedence in one's awareness of their senses and surroundings.
In contrast to the above list, things that do NOT work with your god, include:
1. Reading your bible fable book, from cover to cover.
2. Praying to your god to take any confirmable action on this planet.
3. Calling god's name in any volume or tone of voice, while maintaining one's senses.
4. Handing over 10% of one's income to the church of one's choice.
5. Asking god to transmit one some god-like information, that would then be clearly impossible to have been known by any natural means.
"Christ does not need any enemies"
Sorry to burst your god bubble Rev., but your Christ never existed, so it's hard to be an enemy of something imaginary.
However, it is all too easy to be an enemy to the human delusion of your Christ faith.
All it takes is a wee bit of logic and reasoning, along with taking some time to learn a little about ancient history.
I'm willing to bet you, Rev., that any human who truly desires to make spiritual contact with Zeus or Thor, would do so with as much ease, as a xtian makes contact with their pretend god.
Perhaps when the Muslims attempt spiritual contact with 'god', your xtian god is the one who actually answers them, but with a different 'voice' that is customized just for them?
Please explain to all of us here, why all this spiritual communications going on between all you xtians and your god, never results in any credible evidence to support the existence of your god.
Could it be, all these feelings of making spiritual contact with your god, all takes place inside your own mis-wired brain cells.
Yeah, I think so!!
ATF (Who thinks the ONLY difference between xtian sects, is the danger level of their god-based actions on this earth)
Hey billybee,
I'll come by, as long as it's some of that yummy God-pie.
Yes YES...GOD pie!!! mmmmmmmm...
Will April 14th, year:3,403,224,355 work for you? Say....around 84 o'clock..?
If it's God-pie, i'll be there. Even if it is in spirit only.
Got any evidence that any god actually exists?
:::Crickets:::
Yeah, I didn't think so.
Well, now you know why I left christianity, and religion in general.
Have a nice day.
"So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence."
-Bertrand Russell
"you seem concerned that people leave the church because of what they see in other christians -- their behaviors, their manifest attitudes, their expressed/stated beliefs.
Observing other Christians is the ONLY visible way to ascertain what it means to be Christians, and what happens to people when they become Christian. Thinking people view the evidence of what has happened among all the others and rationally (and quite reasonably) decide for themselves "If that's what Christians are, I don't want to be one," and they walk out from the Church.
And it's not the occasional truly messed up wacko that drives people away. What drives people away from Churches are the prevailing attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors common to the majority of professing Christians -- hatred, backbiting, intolerance, segregation, exclusion of others, etc.
And then thinking people, having viewed the evidence in the lives of all those Christians, start actually reading the book that all these people supposedly swear by. Thinking people have little choice but to walk away from the church."
from spirula:
"Christians are the only 'manifestation' there is for their religion. Christians spend a great deal of time and energy explaining 'the false prophets', the 'we're still sinners too', the 'he/she is still forgiven'.
The fact that there are so many versions of Christianity, so many alleged 'bad apples', so many 'yeah, but sinner' replies, ought to tell you something about what you are believing in."
RIGHT ON.
I'm ashamed of the fact that I couldn't even acknowledge the dumb actions of certain believers until AFTER I left the fold.
Prior to my awakening, I argued that people like Hagee were victims of the “liberal media” or they were just misunderstood.
Yep, Hagee is a self-deluded, spiritual idiot, very similar to Jerry Falwell, Jeremiah Wright, Pat Robertson, James Dobson, Jim Jones, Benny Hinn, Fred Phelps, Kirk Cameron, Warren Jeffs, Tim LaHaye, Joyce Meyer, Jack Chick, Ralph Reed, Ted Haggard, and the fucking pope.
Talibangelicals!
Religion is a CHOICE and if people CHOOSE to follow one of those religious bigots, those sheep are just as guilty as the shepherds.
But religion really isn’t a choice is it? You can force children to go to church and force them to pretend to communicate telepathically to a non-existent entity can’t you?
You can try to discredit science in schools in an effort to make ID look plausible and you can pretend that God intervened whenever you encounter a pleasant surprise, but if you allow that child to think for themselves your religion will join all the religions before that are now categorized as a “myth”.
Well Rev, Christianity IS a myth.
There are plenty of words in the Bible to justify the actions of Hagee, just as there are plenty of words to justify slavery, subjugation of women, attacks on gays, murder of disobedient children, rape of enemies and chopping-off foreskins.
You're right, Christ doesn't need any enemies. The same can be said for the Thor, the Easter bunny, Apollo, Santa Claus, and leprechauns.
Don‘t worry, I'm not just picking on Christians, I’m not too fond of the self-deluded, spiritual idiots that think it’s okay to crash planes into buildings to murder as many people as possible. Allah Akbar my ass! I posit that ANYONE that uses a magic book to justify attacking others is a threat to our planet.
For every sermon denouncing self-deluded, spiritual Christian idiots, there are a million denouncing Atheists. Screw you and the Jesus-horse you rode in on.
You stick to your make-believe world if you want but don’t come here and disrespect us because we no longer believe in fairy tales.
That’s not really “enough said”, it’s just all I want to say right now.
BULLSHIT!
Fuck you and fuck your god.
My life ONLY turned around for the better when I stopped looking skyward for answers, and I started looking inward and trusting myself. Your cult breeds guilt, self-doubt and loathing, a feeling of unworthiness, and is a total waste of a Sunday.
If you are so adamant that this Hagee is nuts and is giving your church a bad name, GO STOP THE FUCKER. are you christians so impotent that you can't keep your own in line?
So here's a question... What if Hagee is actually right? What if that is exactly what needs to happen? What would think about your faith then?
I digress... To sum up, it's a steaming pile of shit.
Why the nastiness directed at this bloke? He's drawn a line between himself and his nuttier co-religionists. In my book it makes him quite different to the drive-by fundies who post similar questions here.
Ok, so he doesn't understand why people leave his faith but that's part of the defense system that keeps people like him in there. Surely that warrants a little bit of understanding from those of us who've been through that process and know both sides?
Steve
Well, some times I feel as though I'm surrounded by these (and worse) people. If one of them walks into my yard and takes a swing at me, I'm swinging back.
This is EX-christian, not "Gee, I wonder what the bible says".
You can't whisper to a rino.....
Hello, (I hope I got you at hello)
You don't get it.
"The idea is to concentrate on God, and not his alleged flock."
Right..Everyone xtian is an alleged flock. Xtians play tricks by only calling those who get "caught doing bad" as the alleged flock.
according to you bible, if someone loves god, they follow his commandments. No one does, so god loves no one and no one is an xtian. Going to church is the only difference between you and me. All xtians live their life as if they don't believe in god anyway.
My biggest argument is that no one can see god (because he doesn't exist) and xtians say they must witness and be god's mouthpiece. When xtians fail to be a good witness (they witness their life as proof of god's existence)as they always do, the opposite proven.
In other words, when you try to prove god's existence with your flucked up flocks actions, it proves the opposite. Get it? Please tell me you understand.
Again, when you say "look at me, god lives in me, my actions are good, join us", you are trying to prove god on the basis the you are good person. Then you turn around and say "don't look at the flucked up flock".
Here's an idea. Stop saying god lives in you and he makes you a good person and using that as proof of god's existence. Since you use your actions (witness) to spread the godspel, we have the right to think the opposite when your sales pitch fails.
The media and internet are whistle blowers on your whole bull shit operation. You can't hide your hyprocritical actions anymore.
Yes, he has... And he's chosen to stay on the "safe" side of that line rather than confronting the psycho-Christians on their own turf.
Which, in My opinion, makes him a cowardly enabler who's afraid to take action against the lunatic fringe of his own religion.
Reverend Pyle, your mission (should you decide to accept it) is to stop the encroachment of Dominionists and Rapture-happy eschatological schemers before they do irreparable harm to this planet and those who live upon it.
Off you go, now. Shoo! Shoo!
The good Rev didn't come here to point-out the crazyness of one of his fellow Christians. He came here to discount us and our beliefs, and encourage us to give them another chance.
IF he actually wanted a dialogue, he'd leave the website for his church so we can go there and carry-on this discussion on his board.
Unfortunately for him, there's a good chance that we might point-out that he has much more in common with Hagee and his ilk than we do. We also might clarify that WE'RE NOT INTERESTED in rejoining his cult, and we could easily interject enough doubt into the minds of his flock to cause a drop in the ol' collection plate next Sunday...
Or... I could be wrong, he might post his churches web address...
A nutjob is a nutjob, no matter how nice they are or how all-encompassing and friendly their brand of nutiness is. This particular nutjob is no different from the other nutjobs he is criticizing - sure, he may be less violent, may even be pacifist, but it doesn't change the fact that his claims are fallacious and wrong by their very nature. BS demands to be treated like BS. This has alwas been my attitude, and it's refreshign to see others embracing it instead of dumping all over it for once. It's the only way we're going to make progress against the insanity of religion -demand answers from ALL of them, and treat ALL of them like idiots.
How "humble" of him!
Notice how Rev. Pyle couldn't stop himself from placing an "MA" after his name
---
I never knew a Rev. could also be a Master of Atheism to.
Well live and learn.
ATF (Who wonders if this type of "MA" degree, would be seen as a conflict of interest)
You can't whisper to a rino.....
-----
Billybee,
I don't know where you got those 'words of wisdom' from, but this advise is not only most likely true, but FUNNY AS HECK.....LOL
ATF (Who wonders what other funny advise, Billybee has to offer?)
Where'd he go? Was he raptured?
----
Oh-My-Gosh; Did I miss the Rapture.........AGAIN !!
ATF (Who thinks god ought to provide a bi-monthly rapture schedule to us)
There is some confusion as to this site because as an ex-Christian site it attracts the drive-by evangelists. In the same way I sometimes post to Christian blogs: the smarter ones really get tied up in knots trying to reconcile their faith with reality. Thats fun.
When they post here it also can be fun because they don't have the courage of their convictions. Most can't sustain any kind of intelligent debate and "Jebus loves you" is about all we ever get.
Maybe we can have some more explicit signposting on the blog as to where our would-be evangelists should go. There are proper areas for debate but they miss them if they head to the blog (probably the most popular bit).
All the snarling just convinces those on the sidelines that all ex-Christians are just carrying around grievances. Given some of the crap people put up with it is understandable but we can at least try not to conform to the false
stereotypes.
Stevie
we didn't reject the church, we rejected the idea of god entirely.
A false stereotype would be that all former Christians are clones, complete agreement on every topic, believe it is mandatory that they all express themselves in a similar fashion, and are required to adhere to the same standard or march to the same drummer.
That's the kind of control we left when we left Christianity.
Ex-Christians are welcome to express themselves here in any fashion that meets with the site disclaimer and purpose.
Your assertion that the idea is to concentrate on god, while probably laudable from a religious stand point, does not really keep with reality. Most of the religious are that way because of the comradeship, teamwork, emotional support and the emotional high that being part of a like minded group brings. I invite you to read a sampling of the heart rending testimonials posted on this site by the recently deconverted. Most are upset about the loneliness but not from the loss of a god’s “companionship” but of supposed friends, who subsequently rejected them. I say supposed because if they were friends for nothing more than shared religious belief, then they were never friends to begin with.
Your statement that the bible does not support the claims of Hagge does not wash either. Read carefully, the bible does indeed support his views. The bible can be made to support virtually any hatred, bigotry and/or violent view that a reader wishes. Whom do you think is supposed to start the biblically predicted war? God? More likely if it happens it will be because of human motivations and interventions. You, like most of your ilk, seem to ignore the negative passages of the bible in favor of the positive ones as you sit in judgment of this Hagge character. You wax poetically about your god’s love and compassion and in the same breath decry those who talk about the bad things written in this “inerrant” tome you shove under everybody’s nose. “Why concentrate on the negative parts of the bible when it contains so much beauty?” is what I’ve heard many times. I don’t believe that ignoring the negative discounts it and it certainly will not just go away if everybody refuses to even discuss it.
Most christians have firm beliefs that are not supported by the bible and I would find it very hard to believe that you yourself did not. Do you believe in the supposed coming rapture? A great many christians in this country do yet there is no mention of it in the bible. Do you as a christian, believe that we, who are professed atheists, should be put to death? The bible is not vague on this rather it is very clear. Should we round up every employee working in stores that are open on Sunday and kill them? Again there is no vagary on this matter. In your pursuit of the love of the christ, do you hate your father and your mother? Jesus was very clear about this yet I doubt that you do. People claim that Jesus is love yet he claimed to “bring not peace but a sword”. With his kind of malevolent love who needs hate? Or do you interpret the plainly written biblical passages as meaning something else altogether? If you do then a valid argument could be made that you too are wrong about your god’s “message”.
You come here making nothing more than the “mine is the true way” statements and we all have certainly heard those before. What makes your belief more correct than others? Please don’t quote the bible in justification as all christians, regardless of affiliation, can do that.
"As a nondenominational minister, I am disturbed and enraged by the fact that many people who leave the Church do so because of the dumb actions of certain believers. The idea is to concentrate on God, and not his alleged flock."
Hey Gomer,
When are idiot pastors like you going to figure it out that a lot of us left because your God failed to make himself known to us, and he failed to comfort us. All people like myself have ever heard from your make believe mythical God is dead silence.
Christians tend to blame other christians for why their God did not reveal himself. It's never God's fault according to idiots like you, it's always, "Man's" fault.
More from Rev. Gomer Pyle:
"Christ does not need any enemies."
First of all, considering that Jesus is supposed to be all mighty and powerful, and he holds dominion over everything and everybody, it seems to me that no enemies of any kind would pose any type of threat to Jesus.
Are you saying that if we nuke Iran that Iran might nuke heaven and kill Jesus? Your statement does sound like something Gomer Pyle would say. Your last name fits you well.
BTW, I assume that Barney and Goober are two of your deacons along with the town drunk Otis. I was wondering where does Andy Taylor fit in all of this? Is he one of your associate pastors? I would betthat Andy Taylor is the head pastor, and you Reverend Gomer are an associate pastor.
SHAZAM!!!!!
It really is the people by whom God is judged. I'm sure that you are familiar enough with John 17 to save server space by not quoting any of it.
Jesus prayed(I guess to himself) that Christians wouldn't screw up in this manner, because the world would know the truth of the matter by Christian unity.
I suppose that Jesus didn't have the faith of a mustard seed, or God (himself) didn't want people to know Christianity was true, or perhaps there isn't anything to it.
I think that the last is probably the case.
You might like to wonder why God killed Ananias and Saphira for being a little doubtful about becoming communists, and yet gives guys like Hagge a full pass.
I know your pain though, because I'm an ex-nondenominational preacher.
Peace to you and yours,
Randen