A Proposal to Christians
sent in by Tigg13
It has occurred to me, after reading several of the comments made by Christians on this website, that there is an issue that should concern you all more than the existence of ex-Christians.
Now, as you all know, there is one and only one true God and one and only one true path to salvation, with all the other paths leading to damnation. But, there are hundreds of different denominations of Christianity all calling themselves the one true church. Obviously there must be a great many of these churches that are not doing the Lord's work. But, if they're not doing the Lord's work, then who's work are they doing?
Why, Satan's of course.
Think about it. What would please the prince of deception more than to use God's own book to lead innocent people into the pit of eternal suffering? To twist and confuse scripture so as to trick people into choosing a false imitation of Christ. Just imagine how surprised these poor souls will be when they find themselves standing before God on the day of judgment, secure in their belief that their salvation is at hand, only to find out that all their doctrines were a sham and that they are doomed just like all the other non-believers. And, even worse, anyone who they may have converted to their false beliefs, their friends and families (who might have found the true Christ but for the false proselytizing that they were subjected to) will also be doomed.
Isn't this a much larger problem for true Christians than a bunch of Ex-Christians who freely admit that they consider the God of the Bible to be a cross between Daffy Duck and the Wizard of Oz? In fact, maybe the whole reason God created Ex-Christians was so that they could act as a beacon to shine the light of reason and logic upon these false prophets so that true Christians could see them for what they really are? I mean, who else could question these imposters' claims of "objective truth" and "moral superiority"?
I believe the time is ripe for all true believers to take action: to identify and eliminate all the false churches and their false doctrines and save the souls of the innocent followers that have been misled by them.
Now, I'm not suggesting that anyone do anything violent or illegal. There are plenty of civilized methods for dealing with this sort of thing. Like demonstrations, for example. Christians always seem to have the time and the energy to protest things like abortion clinics and funerals for gay people. Just start showing up at these false churches on Sunday mornings, padlock yourselves to their doors and start marching around with signs saying things like "Your God Is Satan", "His Kingdom Still Awaits You", and "Learn or Burn!". And then, calmly, with bullhorn in hand, explain to these deluded people that their religion is a lie and that they should let you show them the real Truth of God.
The key to all of this is identifying which Christian churches are false churches. To do this, you would first have to fully define what Christianity really is. Now I'd like to help you all with this, but I myself have never been able to figure out what Christianity is or what a true Christian looks like. Luckily, though, you don't need any help with this. You have God's word - the Holy Bible! I mean, that's the reason God gave you the the Bible, isn't it? So that you'd know his truth, right? So, just carefully go through the Bible (with the Holy Spirit's help, of course) and let it show you what a true Christian is and what they should believe. Then, just research all of the various denominations of Christianity there are in the world, and compare their doctrines to your divinely inspired definition and see which ones pass and which ones fail.
Once you have your lists of true and false religions, you're going to want to publish and circulate them amongst all of the good churches so that they will know who the true enemies of God really are. Then you all can begin the glorious work of cleansing the Body of Christ by ridding it of all the wrong thinking doctrines.
Oh, and when you have your definitions and lists, by all means, post them here. I'm sure we'd all like to have a look at them.
It has occurred to me, after reading several of the comments made by Christians on this website, that there is an issue that should concern you all more than the existence of ex-Christians.
Now, as you all know, there is one and only one true God and one and only one true path to salvation, with all the other paths leading to damnation. But, there are hundreds of different denominations of Christianity all calling themselves the one true church. Obviously there must be a great many of these churches that are not doing the Lord's work. But, if they're not doing the Lord's work, then who's work are they doing?
Why, Satan's of course.
Think about it. What would please the prince of deception more than to use God's own book to lead innocent people into the pit of eternal suffering? To twist and confuse scripture so as to trick people into choosing a false imitation of Christ. Just imagine how surprised these poor souls will be when they find themselves standing before God on the day of judgment, secure in their belief that their salvation is at hand, only to find out that all their doctrines were a sham and that they are doomed just like all the other non-believers. And, even worse, anyone who they may have converted to their false beliefs, their friends and families (who might have found the true Christ but for the false proselytizing that they were subjected to) will also be doomed.
Isn't this a much larger problem for true Christians than a bunch of Ex-Christians who freely admit that they consider the God of the Bible to be a cross between Daffy Duck and the Wizard of Oz? In fact, maybe the whole reason God created Ex-Christians was so that they could act as a beacon to shine the light of reason and logic upon these false prophets so that true Christians could see them for what they really are? I mean, who else could question these imposters' claims of "objective truth" and "moral superiority"?
I believe the time is ripe for all true believers to take action: to identify and eliminate all the false churches and their false doctrines and save the souls of the innocent followers that have been misled by them.
Now, I'm not suggesting that anyone do anything violent or illegal. There are plenty of civilized methods for dealing with this sort of thing. Like demonstrations, for example. Christians always seem to have the time and the energy to protest things like abortion clinics and funerals for gay people. Just start showing up at these false churches on Sunday mornings, padlock yourselves to their doors and start marching around with signs saying things like "Your God Is Satan", "His Kingdom Still Awaits You", and "Learn or Burn!". And then, calmly, with bullhorn in hand, explain to these deluded people that their religion is a lie and that they should let you show them the real Truth of God.
The key to all of this is identifying which Christian churches are false churches. To do this, you would first have to fully define what Christianity really is. Now I'd like to help you all with this, but I myself have never been able to figure out what Christianity is or what a true Christian looks like. Luckily, though, you don't need any help with this. You have God's word - the Holy Bible! I mean, that's the reason God gave you the the Bible, isn't it? So that you'd know his truth, right? So, just carefully go through the Bible (with the Holy Spirit's help, of course) and let it show you what a true Christian is and what they should believe. Then, just research all of the various denominations of Christianity there are in the world, and compare their doctrines to your divinely inspired definition and see which ones pass and which ones fail.
Once you have your lists of true and false religions, you're going to want to publish and circulate them amongst all of the good churches so that they will know who the true enemies of God really are. Then you all can begin the glorious work of cleansing the Body of Christ by ridding it of all the wrong thinking doctrines.
Oh, and when you have your definitions and lists, by all means, post them here. I'm sure we'd all like to have a look at them.
Comments
Shouldn't you have posted this on a Christian website. This website is dedicated to people who don't believe that the bible is anything more than a confusing, illogical, poorly written piece of fiction.
Ex Christians don't believe in Satan or any of the other mythology in the bible. Most of us here consider all churches of Christianity to be organizations dedicated to futility, including you and yours. To put it more succinctly. It's all a load of CRAP!
Dan (Homo sapiens, Rationalist.)
This is an ex-Christian web-site, so I'm assuming that your comments are directed at those Christians who have responded or posted previously on this site.
That being said, and taking your argument from a literal, fundamentalist viewpoint, let us take a look at the very first church.
In the book of Genesis, God had created Adam and Eve, leaving them with instructions that they could eat of any tree in the garden, except from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Here we have humans in direct contact, daily, with God. No priests, ministers, bible, etc. It was the perfect church.
Sometime later, the Serpent came along and tempted Eve. Eve bought it "hook, line and sinker", thus the proverbial "fall of man".
In this story, God did not jump in and heroically save Eve from the Serpent (as well as an omnipotent god could have done). Nor did he forgive Adam (who later also partook of the fruit)or Eve just because they were merely deceived.
Adam and Eve did not eat of the tree until the Serpent talked them into it. Question; why did God not warn Adam and Eve about the crafty Serpent? More so, why did God not intervene to stop the deception? Let's take that even further. Why does God to this very day not intervene in such human suffering; hurricanes, floods, famine, sickness, hunger, etc. (Christians forego the same sufferings).
The reason God does not intervene to prevent sufferings has always been the same. The Bible God doesn't exist.
Your grand allusion of having the church purge itself of false doctrine is the ultimate excercise in futility. God will not help (via the Holy Spirit) because he doesn't exist. The Bible cannot help because, taken literally it contains way too many contradictions and therefore is self defeating.
The Bible was merely written by mankind to explain the world around him. Some of that information is valuable and can help mankind, but these are the philosophy teachings of the Bible, not the mythological teachings.
Genesis shows us that there is a material world around us, what it also shows us, is that there is a psychological battle within us, and as all great religions confirm, we have a better life when we are disciplined in our thoughts and actions.
Find the deeper meanings in the "stories" of the Bible. It is not literal.
Anonymous said "Your grand allusion of having the church purge itself of false doctrine is the ultimate excercise in futility."
People, people, methinks you've missed the point (or else I have). I think Tigg13's piece is brilliant. How many times have we at this site tried to reason with the occasional visiting Christian only to find that the conversation can go nowhere? (Darn near every time, actually.) The majority of them cannot (or simply refuse to) start from dogma-free common ground and *reason* about their beliefs. What Tigg13 has done here is to say fine, then hang onto that book of yours and think about how to REALLY protect it. If followed through to its logical conclusion, the end is effectively the same.
So, applause to you, Tigg13. Brilliant piece.
These types already exist however (I've seen their videos), except they never seem to take into account Mark 9:38-40
“Teacher,” said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
“Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us..."
In fact when the Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons with the power of Beelzebub he warned them of committing the Unforgivable Sin.
So any christian faction who accuses another faction of doing "Satan's work" is going to hell as well.
Hallelujah!
Hilarious! Boy, if they would all concern themselves with what you've proposed, they would have to leave us alone. They'd all be too busy battling each other, and we'd be in peace!
It is bloody briliant and would hopefully be the end of xianity as they would end trying to kill eachother over who is right and it would go away! Sigh.....wishful thinking.
Regards, carol
But it was written by man. Do some research on how the "Christian Bible" was put together and you will see that the earliest manuscripts that we still have of some of the books are 300 years after Christ was allegedly here. And most conflict one another. Not to mention the how manuscripts were chosen to belong or not be included into the bible. When you find out just how poorly the manuscripts were translated from Greek into Latin and then many times back into Greek before even being translated into English you would change you ideas about the bible and possibly you entire belief system. Then find out how many verses that weren't even in the early manuscripts that were added later in order to do what you are suggesting... choose who is and who isn't a christian based on the new writers views.
I was a christian for 35 years and went to bible college, studied the bible and the more I found out about the origins of our religion the more I realized it is man made not "God inspired"
I guess the piece was written with such a subtlety of sardonic satire, I didn't realize that the author was suggesting that all Christian sects go to war with each other over which one teaches the "true" word of God, thus canceling each other out. But haven't they already done that?
Dan (Homo sapiens, agnostic, rationalist)
I guess the piece was written with such a subtlety of sardonic satire, I didn't realize that the author was suggesting that all Christian sects go to war with each other over which one teaches the "true" word of God, thus canceling each other out. But haven't they already done that?
Dan (Homo sapiens, agnostic, rationalist)
Do you not get satire people?
Are you complete morons?
Hows about "THINKING" while you read brilliant pieace sof work such as Tiggs essay here, instead of only browsing it, skipping over all the other resonses to it, missing the point and jumping to the wrong conclusion about this ungoldy person whom wrote this unholy brilliant essay.
Tigg, your essay brought a great smirk to this evil opostates face, thanks.
In Reason:
The very irreverand Bill "Iconoclastithon" Baker
I sincerely hope that they will listen to you.
Ow and when they DO post their list here, I'll have another good chuckle and raise the beer to the stupidity of the sheep that learned to write.
A house divided can not stand.
If I was a true christian.
I would sell all I have and give the money the the poor.
Then I know i would have heveans treasure.
If I was a true christian I would be very worried.. Am I going to the right church does my paster molest the sunday school Kids. Will I go to heaven or go to hell forever and ever.
Just like the Mormons,JW's,Roman Catholics ,Pentacostal Tongue talkers and the 7 day adventists.
I agree with you that the original post, while funny, does raise serious questions. You pointed out some good ones. And your solutions to this problem of how to know exactly what God wants seem to be:
"...I don’t think that God is going to laugh at all those who arrive at the pearly gates with slightly skewed theology. The truth is that I don’t know who really is saved and who isn’t."
Well, that's a perfectly sensible comment - but the problem is, it doesn't seem that it's much suited to Christianity. If you have a system of belief which tells you that the stakes are eternal destinies of infinite goodness versus infinite evil, with no clear directions on how to get there (the various conflicting ideas of Christian denominations) then it makes sense to promote yours as much as possible. It doesn't make sense, on the other hand, to say that we should tolerate alternative opinions. Should we tolerate them possibly going to hell, and leading others to do so too? If you believe that there is a God, a being on omnipotent power, it seems to make more sense to be an evangelical fundamentalist.
What do you think? All the best.
Yes, 'disillusioned' is a good word. We are no longer bound to the illusion.
Though being disappointed by hypocrites and 'emotions wearing off' is not really why most here have left christianity.
It's the theology that is stuffed. I wouldn't have been able to leave while I still believed in a place like hell - until I realised it just can't be real.
It's all an elaborate illusion.
There's no 'substance' for churches to add, without changing the theology.
If you mean, "conned by the church," then, yes. I do feel that way. I feel lied to and cheated out of years of my life.
You've only reinforced our points here. Why would you believe in the doctrine of salvation by grace when it is so absurd? We are all born destined for hell, which is eternal torment where the flames are "seven times hotter" than any flame on earth, because of the "sin" of Adam and Eve?
On top of that, we are in a "fallen state," where we suffer tremendously, having forgotten the "joy of the spirit," naturally drawn toward the "pleasures of the flesh (b/c it feels good,)" and chasing after the hunger in our bellies, fighting and killing for land and food, and all this pisses God off so when we die God throws us into hell?
Everybody went to hell for four thousand years, then Jesus arrived to "save" us by dying a horrible death, which pleases God, who then allows into "Heaven (eternal paradise)" those who "accept Jesus." Everybody else will burn forever.
That's the doctrine of salvation by grace. Why do you believe it?
One major problem with that doctrine is this. Once the person has "accepted Jesus," then one must follow through, somehow, I suppose, so each denomination has its own brand of christianity from there, each favoring certain passages and ignoring the rest. Generally, one will "walk with Christ, meaning that they should now read their bibles, and pray in Jesus name, and do as the bible instructs, in "communion" with Jesus, who supposedly is walking along with them. It really gets screwy from there.
What is the purpose of the gospels if Christ came only to die, then ascend into heaven?
What is the purpose of the devil, who is supposedly running amok in the world "tempting" people into committing "sin," attempting to "win souls," into hell, yet, a person is "saved," whether or not they've "accepted Jesus?" The "devil" becomes obsolete! There's no point to this character! Who is he "tempting?" He does not "tempt" non-believers, ironically, since they don't believe he exists. He may only "tempt" christians! The rest of us are taking responsibility for our actions! As a result, a christian may believe, as some do, that he or she may "lose their salvation!" Oh, man. It'll mess with your head, if you think about it.
Christians are believers, ex-christians are thinkers. I'm glad to be setting myself intellectually free.
Christians do not understand what that means.
Why did it take god over 4000 years to come up with the jesus on a stick salvation plan?
People do not understand that 2000 years ago, you could not just get on the phone and dial 911 for a sheriff deputy or a policeman to come out and uphold the law, because they did not have a civil justice system. They divised a plan if you can make people feel guilty then, you will cut down on the amount of crime(sins). Paul seen how well making people feel guilty worked, so they, the self-righteous movement decided to elect a virgin girl, whom got pregnant out of wedlock and promote this baby as personal saviour for those that want to believe, this way they could control masses of people and yet promise them a heavenly reward, and those that chose not to belive and continued to sin(commit crimes) would be sent to hell to burn.
So here we are in 2006, and people on their ignorance still believe in the jesus crime control myth.
The pilgrims brought the jesus myth over here, before then, there was not a single church on American soil, now the landscape is littered with the jesus brainwashing boxes, with the pagan monolith symbol.
Finally, the doctrine of salvation itself has its problems. If one is "saved," what is the purpose of the baptism? Why does scripture also say that if one "confesses with thy mouth the name of Jesus and believeth in thy heart that God has raised him from the dead, ye shall be saved?" What happened to "accept Jesus?" May one do either, in order to be "saved?" Perhaps one should do both, just to be on the safe side. Of course, one must also "become as a child," in order to enter heaven. Yada, yada, yada.
Remember, Jesus also said, "Not everyone who sayeth unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter heaven, but he that doeth the will of God." Nice. Is a christian "saved," or not?
“Did you know that the sun is made up of Hydrogen, Helium, Oxygen, Carbon, Nitrogen, Silicon, Magnesium, Neon, Iron and Sulfur?”
“No I didn’t”, I replied.
He continued, “The list of elements I mentioned was constructed from an analysis of the solar spectrum. This comes from the photosphere and chromo sphere of the Sun. But it is thought to be representative of the entire Sun with the exception of the solar core because of the degree of mixing which takes place between the layers of the Sun's interior. About 67 elements have been detected in the solar spectrum.”
“You don’t say.” When would this guy leave!
“Did you know”, he went on, “We owe some of our most spectacular atmospheric phenomena to various types of scattering: the blue of the sky, the red of the sunrise, the white of clouds and, that epitome of rare occurrences, the blue moon. I know what you’re thinking…”
He had no idea what I was thinking. Why the hell couldn’t he just leave me alone?
“Why isn't the sky black? Right? Well our sky is colored because our atmosphere makes blue light when sunlight passes through it. This phenomenon is called scattering. It is similar to when sunbeams reveal themselves in the presence of dust, most spectacularly through stained glass windows. The atmosphere causes the sky to be colored.”
“There’s a Church back about a mile,” I volunteered.
“I don’t attend Church. The whole God thing doesn’t sit right with me.”
Well there’s a shocker, I thought. He continued to drone on and on about scientific theories and observations. As I sat there I wondered why the sunrise wasn’t so pretty anymore. I now knew more about the sun and sky than I ever wanted to know. Why couldn’t he accept that it was nice to look at and leave it at that?
I was brought back to the moment when he stated, “And that’s why I don’t believe.”
Believe what? “Uh, sorry I didn’t catch that?”
“Oh I was just saying that as a Scientist, that’s why I don’t believe in God.”
That explained a lot. “So why don’t you believe?” I ventured.
“As a Scientist I have questions about how things work and why they work the way they do. There is an answer for every question.”
I still didn’t get it. “So why don’t you believe?”
“If God really existed why did he make it so difficult to believe he’s there?”
“I don’t think you’ll ever get an answer to that question,” I replied.
“And that’s my problem. There has to be an answer.”
“Why? Can’t you accept it on faith?”
“Ah, the old, ‘firm belief in something for which there is no proof’, argument.”
I thought about that for a moment. “Well I ventured…humans want answers now. It’s very difficult for us to wait for something we want. We start that way when we’re children and our parents supply our wants and needs. Parents don’t always give us everything we want because not everything is good for us. When I was 5 I wanted a gun. What responsible parent would give a 5 year old a gun?”
“I don’t see your point.”
“God doesn’t always give us what we want.”
“I take it you’re a believer?”
“As a matter of fact, I am.”
“Why doesn’t God give you what you want? Doesn’t he want you to be happy? Content?”
“Sure he does. But he knows best for me. Just like my parents knew best for me when I was little.”
“Ok, prove to me God exists.”
“I can’t prove it to you. You have to accept it by faith.”
“You say something is there, yet you cannot prove it exists.”
“Well, there’s the Bible…”
“Here we go! Another Bible thumper. The Bible proves nothing. It was written by men.”
“Then we’re back to faith. With faith no proof is necessary. Without faith no proof is possible for you.”
“There you go getting all righteous on me. Morally superior, huh?”
“No. We’re all made in God’s image but we’re not all his children.”
“And you know this how?”
“Without God there is no purpose. There is no right or wrong. Morals are based on what people think is right or ok at any given time. In Germany it was morally right to hate and kill Jews during Hitler’s reign.”
“That’s not true. Hate is wrong and killing certainly is too.”
“What makes it wrong? In your world society changes and defines what’s right and what’s wrong. There is no moral absolute. If enough people believe something is right then it’s right. There are hundreds of examples throughout history where things have changed over time to be wrong from right or vice versa.”
“What examples?”
“Well how about chopping off someone’s hand for stealing? Most rational people would agree that’s a little extreme. So now it’s wrong. What about the death penalty? Humans are still waffling on this one. Abortion, assisted suicide, euthanasia. These still have people on both sides of the right and wrong position. If there is no God then why is there right and wrong? And who defines the absolutes?”
He sat there next to me contemplating what I had said. I wasn’t sure he would say anything else and time slowly slipped by as we both looked out over the water. As the sun climbed higher into the sky I thought about my original thought about enjoying this with someone. I laughed. God knew what I needed.
First, you assert that with out god there is no purpose. But what is our purpose if there is a god? Are we just lab rats running through god's morality maze? Are we contestants on god's game show? Are we prizes that god and satan are competing for? We are promised paradise and threatened with salvation, but why? What's the point? To win an argument? To settle a score? "Well," says the christian,"there must be some reason. Its all part of God's plan and if he wanted us to know it then He'd tell us."
Instead of dealing with the fear that there might not be a purpose or that it might not be very satisfying or personally meaningful, christians just pretend that there is a god and "poof" they have a purpose. (they can't be sure what it is, but they know it must be out there somewhere.)
Second, you say without god there is no absolute truth or moraltiy. Again, what objective truth do you have with a god? Look at all the various religions around the world and througout history and you will find every kind of evil and unjust atrocity being carried out in the name of some god. You want to commit an immoral, unkind or sadistic act? Just get out your bible and start thumbing through it and sooner or later you'll find a chapter and verse that will sanction it.
Moral absolutes are useless to finite, subjective beings with limited perspectives. All anyone can ever know is their own personal point of view on what is right and what is wrong. To believe that there is an absolute truth out there somewhere is pointless. To believe that your personal point of view lines up exactly with this absolute truth leads to tyranny, oppression, slavery, torture, genocide and destruction.
If there is a god and he created all things including evil, it's his friggen problem, not ours, kiss our asses, anonymous xtian brainwashed fundy!