This site is such a disappointment
A letter from SUPERNOVA & AUBREYDAWN
THIS WAS FIRST WRITTEN AS A COMMENT POSTED ON "I HAVE EXPERIENCED GOD, BUT...". I WROTE ONE PREVIOUSLY (YOU CAN CHECK IT OUT ON ABOVE TITLE IF INTERESTED, BUT IT'S NOT IMPORTANT). THIS WAS GOING TO BE A SECOND COMMENT ON THAT POST, BUT I THOUGHT IT BETTER TO POST IT HERE.
I'm not sure why I joined this discussion. It's the first discussion or comment exchange I've been a part of on-line other than some with myspace friends; rarely. I wasn't looking for inspiration or validation when I logged in to this site. I just ran across it by accident; read a few comments, became irritated, and was provoked by stupidity (not ignorance, STUPIDITY) to comment. I too was a "born again christian" for 20 years of my life. I was sheltered. It took that long (20 years) before I was introduced to any other ideas. Believe it! And how were they introduced to me? My own reflections. Really. You just have to be willing to think honestly. So anyway, I was a "born again christian". I also spoke in tongues. But unlike some others, I'm willing to admit to you and myself; I FAKED IT, alot. I've felt god, spoken to him many times; until I found biology and chemistry and other sciences (my biology teacher in the christian school I attended did not believe in science). It was swift. It's not always easy to know what IS. But once we know something IS NOT; then, IT'S NOT. Like the earth is NOT about 6000 years old. We have dominion over the animals, about as much as they have dominion over us. We are just more selfish and cruel. The rainbow is not a sign or a promise from god to noah. It appeared countless times in countless places before god was ever imagined as the answer to anything. And god REALLY does NEVER heal amputees. All I'm trying to say is that this site is such a dissapointment. I mean, most of these people don't have it any more right than they had it before. They're just trying to switch ideas and change it up for themselves. They still don't care about honest evidence or about being reasonable. For the most part, it seems like this site is a bunch of superstitious wish-thinkers supporting other superstitious wish-thinkers in their search to find a different idea to be stupid about. Don't any of these people see? Religion or a god (as far as it concerns truth and morality) is not even a subject that should be on the table for debate. Reason and evidence destroy these ideas at the outset. Honest research and honest answers and honest progress; that's all I'm interested in. Out of 30-something comments, I only found JACKIE and TELMI to make any sense. Is this site to even be acknowledged by atheist? A site full of unsure ex-christians telling unsure, questioning-christians to keep asking questions; and supporting them by saying that their questions will either lead them further away from or closer to god. What does that benefit? Tell them what you know, or go back to church.
If my first impression of this site is off base, will someone please explain it to me?
THIS WAS FIRST WRITTEN AS A COMMENT POSTED ON "I HAVE EXPERIENCED GOD, BUT...". I WROTE ONE PREVIOUSLY (YOU CAN CHECK IT OUT ON ABOVE TITLE IF INTERESTED, BUT IT'S NOT IMPORTANT). THIS WAS GOING TO BE A SECOND COMMENT ON THAT POST, BUT I THOUGHT IT BETTER TO POST IT HERE.
I'm not sure why I joined this discussion. It's the first discussion or comment exchange I've been a part of on-line other than some with myspace friends; rarely. I wasn't looking for inspiration or validation when I logged in to this site. I just ran across it by accident; read a few comments, became irritated, and was provoked by stupidity (not ignorance, STUPIDITY) to comment. I too was a "born again christian" for 20 years of my life. I was sheltered. It took that long (20 years) before I was introduced to any other ideas. Believe it! And how were they introduced to me? My own reflections. Really. You just have to be willing to think honestly. So anyway, I was a "born again christian". I also spoke in tongues. But unlike some others, I'm willing to admit to you and myself; I FAKED IT, alot. I've felt god, spoken to him many times; until I found biology and chemistry and other sciences (my biology teacher in the christian school I attended did not believe in science). It was swift. It's not always easy to know what IS. But once we know something IS NOT; then, IT'S NOT. Like the earth is NOT about 6000 years old. We have dominion over the animals, about as much as they have dominion over us. We are just more selfish and cruel. The rainbow is not a sign or a promise from god to noah. It appeared countless times in countless places before god was ever imagined as the answer to anything. And god REALLY does NEVER heal amputees. All I'm trying to say is that this site is such a dissapointment. I mean, most of these people don't have it any more right than they had it before. They're just trying to switch ideas and change it up for themselves. They still don't care about honest evidence or about being reasonable. For the most part, it seems like this site is a bunch of superstitious wish-thinkers supporting other superstitious wish-thinkers in their search to find a different idea to be stupid about. Don't any of these people see? Religion or a god (as far as it concerns truth and morality) is not even a subject that should be on the table for debate. Reason and evidence destroy these ideas at the outset. Honest research and honest answers and honest progress; that's all I'm interested in. Out of 30-something comments, I only found JACKIE and TELMI to make any sense. Is this site to even be acknowledged by atheist? A site full of unsure ex-christians telling unsure, questioning-christians to keep asking questions; and supporting them by saying that their questions will either lead them further away from or closer to god. What does that benefit? Tell them what you know, or go back to church.
If my first impression of this site is off base, will someone please explain it to me?
Comments
Stick around and learn more about us before passing judgment on us. Glory!
It seems to me that most of the people on here share your viewpoint. If you got a couple of nutty Christians -- I can only quote my stepson, "That always happens sometimes!"
Don't leave out just yet! Stick around and give it a little more time.
It is such an anti blessing to have found this site and I hope you do stick around, besides, who else will be wout there to compete against those dumbasses who run atheismsucks.blogspot.com?
GAWDS!!! I just LOVE Y'LL!
Anyway, the previous posters have been too nice so I will be the bitch, here!
If you had taken some time and given a little effort to reading the main posts on this site you would have seen that there are hundreds of people honestly pouring their hearts out while undergoing the crises of their lives. Some of these people have lost their spouses, children, parents, businesses, jobs, community support and more by professing their lack of faith. This site provides emotional support for those poor souls who are going the hell of breaking out of mental and emotional bondage! Are you saying that this s STUPID? Some of these people are Christians who are in crises. Some are not. Some of us feel that we have a responsibility to our fellow humans to help them by providing emotional support. Is that STUPID?
What is YOUR problem?
And what the fuck is a superstitious wish-thinker? Are you referring to those of us who like to READ about different ideas and LEARN about other viewpoints? Are we supposed to quit reading and learning the moment we denounce Christianity?
OK, That's it! We can't have any new ideas! I'm done reading! I have ALL the answers now! Everyone and everything else is just plain WRONG! So why bother! (sarcasm here)
Seems to me that speaking in tongues isn't the only thing you've been faking!
I'm an EX-Christian Truth Seeking BITCH and proud of it! If you don't like our STUPID, SUPERSTITIOUS, WISH-THINKING site than take your negative shit some were else!
Regardless, most Christians will be massively persecuted by their own kind if they recant. It takes time.... these things take time.
However, I am glad you have found this site and participated by posting.
Do not be hasty in making judgments.
Many interesting things have been said here and you will find useful tips in some of the posts, which you might have missed.
Please continue to stay tuned to this site and you will discover far greater, stronger truths than you have ever imagined.
i did my de-conversion all by myself. wish there had been something like this.
OP, you are so off the mark that I'm tempted to be very rude to you
----
Tama.brett,
Could you possibly be any more vague, if you had tried to be?
ATF (Who thinks Tama lives in this country...or another one LOL)
vagueness is a chelished(!) quality in this country.
We have an unusual sense of humor here, maybe you're just not used to it?
Don't take your faith, or lack of it so seriously. I certainly don't, it's not good for you.
This site is 30% information, 30% social interaction with like-minded individuals, and 40% making fun of fundy morons and the ignorant mindset most christians have.
You want serious, read a psychological journal on the subject, or write a thesis on the effects of christianity on the human mind or something.
If that's your thing, you can probably find a link or two to help you on your way here too.
Actually, that's pretty much the christian attitude. As for the OP, I second what everyone else has said. I don't quite understand what your beef with this site is. I live in a house full of christians who have a pretty narrow-minded view of the world. I haven't had any like-minded friends since I left the cult. I live in the bible belt so christianity is shoved in my face every goddamn day but I have to keep my agnosticism and my views to myself. This site provides me a little escape, albeit a temporary one, from the insanity. This is the only place where I can find like-minded people, where I can just vent about all the fundie shit that I'm forced to deal with on almost a daily basis. If this site is such a disappointment to you then good luck on finding something better because I doubt you will.
Yes, my little sarcastic rant was meant to portray the Christian, closed-minded, mentality! I'm glad you all could see that! I have a twisted sense of irony that is usually missed by my Bible Belt neighbors! It is sooooo nice to have friends on this site that pick up on it! Like many of you, I have to deal with the idiocy day in and day out on the job, in the schools, etc... It's nice to have someplace to go where the people are rational!
I can't be nice this day, I'm saving all my "nice" for next week when my mom visits. I have loosened a tooth already with practicing keeping my mouth shut.
Whenever I would come home from work, pissed and frustated after listening to fundie coworkers preach to one another, pat each other on the back, discuss the death of nonbelievers, they are sure they are right, no questions asked, I could come to this site, and I feel not so alone. There are many brilliant people here, I am honored to read their writings daily. Throwing cheap insults like "stupid" is the easy way if you want to throw rocks and run. My fundie coworkers say stupid like this,"Steeeuuuupiiiid!"
Please practice for proper effect.
Clair(the profoundly disappointing)
I would say a good portion here are atheist and agnostic. The rest have some form of non-christian, non-fundamentalist belief. We do get some christians who come here to argue with the members. If you ran into those, then I'm sorry but that isn't the majority of our membership. Try coming on to the forums, look around, read, meet the members. This is a very supportive place full of intelligent people.
ex-Christians". I've been coming to this site for almost two years,
and most of the people sound very sure about their deconversion. Perhaps some of those who have just
left religion still sound a bit
unsure, but most of us have no
doubts about being better off without Christianity.
And not everyone here is going to
be an expert in the field of
debunking fundamentalism. Some have
done more research than others, but if I read your letter correctly, you support good, honest
research in this field and that's
a good point; I suppose some people
have more time for this than others.
The funny thing is, most of us agree with your comments on Christianity, if a bit surprised
at your thoughts about this site.
But an honest critique can be helpful. I hope you will stick around and I think you'll see its
a pretty good site after all.
And people handle it differently.
Ex-Christians come here for all sorts of different reasons: advice, comfort, anger, resentment, humor, critical analysis, sympathy, and all the other emotional and intellectual reasons you can think of.
That is a lot of different people, from different backgrounds and different countries and different cultures who only share one thing...the rejection of Christianity.
If all you want is intellectual discussions regarding Christianity and issues related to it, from an ex-Christian point of view, try Debunking Christianity (excellent site).
But I think you should be disappointed in your own expectations. You don't seem to appreciate the diversity of people. The diversity of experiences. The diversity of needs.
Life is messy. And peoples lives are messy at times. And this site is for all of them. Haughty concern trolls are not welcome.
And to eris.discordia: I don't know if you read or understood much of what I said.
Wish-thinker - wishful-thinking. Do you not understand that? Is that what's important to you? How in the world did you come to the conclusion that I'm not for reading or for seaching or for progress, because I'm not for questioning all the parts of christianity? If you're still searching for what you want in christianity, then you're the one who's quit searching for anything real. I love new ideas. I just don't like old, wrong ones. And please tell me. What else is it that I've been faking?
To ALMOST everyone else who commented on this post: Thank you. I wish we could have a beer and talk.
SUPERNOVA & AUBREYDAWN
Telling someone "there is no god" does nothing if they are still hung up on "I'm afraid to leave because what if I'm wrong and go to hell". Some people need to work through the whole fear thing- why would a god I call loving fry people forever- before the can remove the superstition from their mind so they are free to explore other scary options, ie: "there is no god". You can't expect everyone to get from A to H without stopping at BCDEFG first simply because you did.
Then again, sometimes we have to play the hypothetical game. I've written about this on the forums, but christians live in an alternative reality. Their reality has been shaped by their religious concepts. Sometimes in order to even communicate with someone who has a diety belief, one must play the "if god is ....., then why does he allow..." or whatever with them. Simply asserting that god doesn't exist while the assert he does shuts off any hope of communication.
In addition, this is a support group for ANYONE who has left or is leaving christianity. Therefore you are going to get people who are high and low and average intelligence. Some people take longer to move through and some shorter. Nobody is paid to be here either, nor do we have a meeting to determine how to be in sync with our ideas. So you are going to get a whole ream of answers to any question.
If you prefer your method or you have something in particular to say, then my advice is to join the forum and throw your voice in the ring.
Sorry if it's just not your cup of tea.
Then, according to your bent, stick around or leave, either way thanks for your input.
I don't participate.
Likewise, there are a ton of people who do find this site useful, and you obviously don't. So who cares? Why does it bother you to know there's a site that people like that you can't appreciate? Just move on like you probably have for the the millions of other sites ou there you see no point in.
Any motive which could have fueled this post just blows my mind. No one cares that you don't like this site, the fact remains that a lot of people do, and they find it useful. Is that really very hard to comprehend? Geez.
How old are you? My guess is under 30, because I have a hard time believing someone older than that would be so fucking arrogant. Thanks but no thanks for telling me how easy it is to recover from brainwashing. You must think yourself brilliant: well, grow the fuck up.
Barb
Anyhoo, like others have said, WTF difference does it make to you if this site is the be-all and end-all of anti-christian sentiment?
Who can relate with me on this one: I came here 3 years ago, doubting to the point of atheism, but shocked and horrified by how blunt and forceful the anti-christian message was (esp. calling the J-meister JEEBUS or JAYSUS or whatever). I thought I was ready, but I wasn't. I went to other, more 'respectful' sites and completely dismantled my faith in god. Now, there is not ONE SINGLE DAY that goes by without me stopping by to read. I love it, but it took time.
So, dude (or dudette), if you are for real, take some time and get comfortable with the fact that we are all on different trajectories here. All just human.
OR, you could just fuck off...
A deist isn't hurting anyone. Even a theist in the broadest sense of the term isn't really causing any harm. What concerns most of us are the religious individuals who claim that we must submit our entire lives to the demands of their religion, or else suffer the wrath of their god. That is why this site is called ex-CHRISTIAN.net, and not ex-THEIST.net.
There are many on this site who are atheists, but our main focus is discussing and refuting the specific claims of christianity. And as Madame M said, we are here to support anyone at any point on their path towards deconversion.
Lighten up. Critical thinking is great, but don't let it turn you into some rational supremacist jackass. If I could borrow a phrase from the christians, be a "city on a hill!" Show the fundamentalists that there is "joy unspeakable and full of glory" for the freethinker!
By the way, I'm really a nice guy!
This is a support group, and as such, it often shows cases of "blind leading the blind."
Yes, I agree, some people have switched from one extreme to another. But I truly believe that as ignorant and out-to-lunch as a few people on this board may sound, the poster sounds much worse.
Anyone who would be so enraged about how a forum is ran and about what people believe, or not, needs serious help. The level of judgment and NEED TO CONTROL displayed on the letter is quite extreme.
So I hope the poster will find some sort of psychological help for his/her anger and co-dependency.
And I don't buy it that he is an ex-Christian. He sounds very Christian to me.
It's not about being a christian or an ex-christian. It's about being ready to grow-up and be rational
----
Supernova,
Oh gosh, where to begin.
In this latest post you made, where you start of with an 'apology', you still talk about how often you've logged into such a "shitty" site.
As has been pointed out to you already, no one is saying you have to enjoy this site (or suffer 'in hell' for not doing so). Unlike so many religious creeds demand, we don't demand anything from our audience, other than to abide by the very FAIR rules set forth by it's owner, Dave.
One is quite free to come and go as they please here, and to enjoy or not enjoy, what they see.
That all said now, you did make ONE good point about "being ready to grow-up and be rational".
Part of growing up is developing the courage to face life with our eye's wide open and accept whatever we discover from the world of reality we live and DIE within.
As children mature, they give up certain fantasy's that they once held as truth.
When a child is 'ready' and 'wise' enough, they will accept that Santa is a myth.
Many of them may have preferred to continue in such a belief of a mythical entity, but they come to understand that just because they wish something to exist, doesn't cause it to be of reality.
It does take some courage to face a reality without a hero that we once were so sure about.
Some children fare better than other, in making that transition.
Some will accept this new truth in their lives, in a heartbeat, while others will mentally fight against it for some time before they finally cave-in to the reality of Santa being a myth.
Unlike with some belief in a god, a child who never loses this Santa belief, would be seen as mentally ill.
Some children going through this phase of their lives, have a FEAR of what life will be like without this former 'truth' of Santa in their lives.
At such times, such children need someone to turn to, just to know everything will be okay etc..
Once they realize that their lives will go along just fine without Santa in it, their former fears fade away.
I think for xtian adults, having to face up to a life without the god they once were so sure about, takes quite a bit of courage. Not only does the god entity itself vanish from existence, but one usually has to face the hard-fact of there being no heaven to spend eternity in.
For most of us (but not all), it also means realizing there is no afterlife of any kind as well.
Those are very hard 'pills' to swallow, especially in one big gulp.
I doubt there are more than a handful that made this huge, life-changing transition, overnight.
Most of us tended to first suspect that something was a bit awry about this xtian god character and then slowly began to inspect the evidence, both pro and con.
This process is not really all that different from the young child who goes from suspecting Santa might not be real, to finally concluding that Santa's existence is impossible and always was.
Many who find this website and haven't come here to preach to us heathens, are just beginning to suspect that god might turn out to be just like Santa was for them, a myth.
I'm willing to bet that most of these folks are just lurkers here and for whatever reason, aren't ready to post a public comment yet.
They are trying hard to weigh the pros and cons of the god issue and will lurk here for a long time in that endeavor.
If they are lurking here, then they have moved beyond a blind faith for god and their minds now want to see something more "rational". They will look to see if the xtians who post here are being rational in their 'arguments' to us and visa versa.
While they may still desire to find some rational reasons to keep their faith in god, if they notice that no such rational reasons can be provided, then just like the child who see's the same for Santa, these folks will come to realize that this xtian god is now becoming less and less likely to exist.
Supernova, this is a process, and a MAJOR TRANSISTION for most and far exceeds the repercussions of just losing a present-bearing, Santa figurehead, in our lives.
So yes, it's about growing up and being willing to accept a HARD reality, without a god watching our backs and it's promise of some long term future.
It's about energizing the rational parts of our minds, such that the rational reality we exists within, starts to exceed the emotional desire for such a god in our lives.
While this process can be done alone and in silence, I think it's a far easier a process when you have some folks in your life (real world or virtual) to help with that difficult transition.
I'm sure many of us needed to consult with our childhood friends, when the Santa illusion started to be called into question.
We needed to know we were not all alone in that discovery and that others who had already went through that discovery process, had fared just fine from knowing the reality of it all.
Most of us here, likewise, have a need to know that losing our faith in the xtian god isn't going to mean the end of everything for us, but rather, life will continue to go on and on and on. A life of freedom from the huge crutch of the xtian religion and 'his' guilt-trip dogma.
One last thing.....Please learn to form paragraphs. It would make things much easier for everyone to read.
ATF (Who when told that "life is hard", will then ask back, "What's easier?")
Fuck you, fuck your mother, fuck your family. Go back from wherever you crawled out of. Maybe you'll enjoy disney.com - it seems like that may be more your speed.
You're just as bad as the old ladies who bitch about sex and violence on TV, or the sanctimonious assholes who complain about the content of hip-hop music.
Guess what - IT WASN"T MADE FOR YOU! Change the channel, turn it off, walk the fuck away, go to the library, ANYTHING... just leave us the fuck alone.
Log off of the site, go put the dick back in your ass, and FUCK OFF - we don't want your troll bullshit.
There's a reason eris.discordia is one of my favorite posters on this site. She comes out swinging. In a world where the religious demand complete "respect," I can appreciate her style. I can also appreciate that you deserve the tongue-lashing she gave you.
Dude, seriously. By your own admission you didn't read even 1% of the posts on this site. And then the majority of your post even isn't WHY you think this site sucks; it was just personal dumpage. And then you don't form proper paragraphs, and most of your upper-casing and lower-casing is incorrect. It's starting to look, to me, like you're a Christian. Or at least like you've still got the mental shortcomings of one. If you didn't, I imagine you would have looked around a little bit more before you decided that ex-Christian = Christian. Jeez.
And one more thing: why shouldn;t religion and God as far as it conerns tuth and morality not be a subject for discussion here? Without discussing these things, we can't even begin to hope to touch on reason and evidence. What the hell are we applying reason and evidence to if not these things? are we going to talk about how GREAT reason and evidence are, but not how they defeat the notions of religion and God?
You're weird. No wonder the site dissapointed you. I couldn't care less if you want to have a beer with me. I'm dry, anyway. Maybe if you laid off the sauce you'd be coherent enough to look around the site for more than ONE F*ING POST.
So...like most fundamentalist Christians, you believe we should start with the conclusion instead of come to it.
I'm sorry, but saying that you can't believe in a biblical god at all...and you have to start from there...is just as STUPID as those who say you have to start WITH a belief in God and go from there.
You don't start with the conclusion. By definition, the conclusion is something you come to at the end. You start with questioning the beliefs that were inserted into your head when you were still to young to think. You question as honestly as you can, and learn to reason things out, and then based on the evidence you come to a conclusion (that can again be modified if you come across more evidence).
In case I didn't make my point clear YOU DON'T START WITH THE CONCLUSION.
I'm usually annoyed when people say atheists are just as much fundamentalists as the religious right, but based on your two posts so far, I'd say that such a label fits you just about right.
"There is no god(s)" is not the conculsion it the null hypothesis, it is a logical assumption, a starting point. This is one of the corner stones of science, we don't start believing anything unless there is some evidence, or argument or something wrong in another theory. We may discard this assumption when evidence turns up such as Jesus and his host of angels, but in the meantime we make the assumption that god does not exist.
An example often used in the assertion that a tea pot is orbiting the sun or in more modeern times the Flying Spaghetti Monster. As our starting point we assume these don't exist, then wonder why they might exist.
If you don't understand this I suggest you look into the scientific method in more detail.
Wish-thinker - wishful-thinking. Do you not understand that? Is that what's important to you? How in the world did you come to the conclusion that I'm not for reading or for seaching or for progress, because I'm not for questioning all the parts of christianity? If you're still searching for what you want in christianity, then you're the one who's quit searching for anything real. I love new ideas. I just don't like old, wrong ones. And please tell me. What else is it that I've been faking?"
SUPERNOVA & AUBREYDAWN
So tell me which ideas are the "Wrong" ones?
How can you be so sure that some of the ideas expressed on this site are wrong? Did you DIE and come back to life just to set us straight?
I have NO idea how you got the idea that I am searching Christianity for any answers! Good Gawd! You do know that Mankind has a RICH history of alternative beliefs right? I have studied quantum physics, ancient cultures and belief systems, and archeology for 30 years. I don't need to devolve to Christianity for answers!
But let me ask you something. Are you so closed minded that you think you KNOW all the answers? Do you think your Atheism is the ONLY thing that should be conveyed on this site? Well I must be a complete MORON because I thought this site was for all EX CHRISTIANS not just atheists! I also had this crazy idea that it was for people with open minds that like to explore new ideas as well as old ones. At lease that is the impression I got from the many posts I have read so far!
According to you anyone who is not a die-hard in-your-face atheist is either confused or stupid.
I guess that makes me pretty stupid. As I don't know everything. I'm still searching with an open mind! I don't know if there is a god and I don't care because I know it's a question that can't be answered while I am alive in this insignificant, 3 dimensional plane of existence. But I sure wouldn't rule it out! From what I can gather with my limited senses, God might be some kind of force, like (light) waves or quarks.
I'm not ready to say that there is no god. I think that there are too many scientific discoveries that need to be explored first. If that makes me stupid and confused, so be it!
Sincerely,
Eris the FOOL!
Supernova & Aubreydawn or whoever you are:
There's a reason eris.discordia is one of my favorite posters on this site. She comes out swinging. In a world where the religious demand complete "respect," I can appreciate her style. I can also appreciate that you deserve the tongue-lashing she gave you."
Thanks! It's nice to know I haven't yet alienated EVERYONE on the net!
Eris
Trancelation - I couldn't have said it better myself!
Eris
((wow this is incredibly incoherent. I'm sorry to anyone who doesn't understand this which is probably alot of you, but I'm hoping that I can find someone who might get what i'm talking about at least a little bit. ))
"Admitting their possibility makes me no less of an atheist. If it does in your eyes, Suprenova & Aubreydawn, then you don't know what atheism is. Go elsewhere if you can't appreciate the scientific method."
Precisely; Atheism is strictly about belief, specifically, non-belief. As for the scientific method---let's too, remember, that science doesn't automatically equate "possibility", with plausibility. Just because something can't be ruled out of the realm of "possibility", doesn't mean it is worthy of contemplation, and/or, belief.
Eris...From what I can gather with my limited senses, God might be some kind of force, like (light) waves or quarks.
Agreed, it might.....but sadly - well, at least in my view - the concept of a personal "God"..whether it be a being, "force", lightwave, doughnut, or whatever---it still presents some of the same problems that the personal "God" of the Christian bible presents. One, if its vast, divine, incomprehensible "plan" is for humankind to suffer, then I frankly don't see the benefit of wanting to know or understand such a "God", let alone spend eternity with it. On the other hand, if there exists a non-personal deistic type of "God", then like a few have already said....who really cares?
holypigmonkey, great name.
No, we do not have beliefs. We have decided not to believe anything. Now we can argue about what the word "believe" means, but I think in this case it's obvious. I don't believe in athesim, simply, I am not prepare to believe something that has no evidence. You can't equate athesim with religion or a belief, it is in fact a complete rejection of beliefs.
HPM, it isn't spite that brought us here, but the desire to talk about the experiences we've had.
And those experiences come in a lot of flavours. I'm at one extreme of the scale... My disbelief started at about the same time I entered elementary school, but no one in My family tried to indoctrinate Me into Christianity or even let on that they thought it was for real. In other words, until I formally declared Myself non-Christian I was a Christian-in-name-only because I never believed.
At the other end of the scale are people who spent decades of their lives as pastors and who had a rude and very painful awakening when their beliefs fell apart and prayers for guidance and support went unanswered.
"I think atheists should be divided into two groups."
There are already two general classifications of atheistic thought, commonly referred to as weak and strong atheism.
Weak atheism says "I don't think that gods exist."
Strong atheism tends to say "There are no gods," which is why it's sometimes classified as belief in non-existence rather than non-belief in existence.
Regarding the god of the Bible, I'm technically of the "weak atheist" type but only because I consider the god of the Bible to have an existence-probability only slightly greater than zero. In other words, I tend to say "I consider Biblegod to be so extremely unlikely that I'm 99.999...% sure that it does not exist." (In other words, I'm a strong atheist who isn't interested in 100% certainty, merely low probability.)
Science is somewhat related to My non-belief, but it is by no means the whole story.
"...and those that do not believe in God because they do not feel God in their lives as Christians... A fundamentally flawed reason to not believe in God."
Well, people don't generally go around looking for "reasons" to not believe in something. However, if one does believe in a god but consistently gets no response to prayers, those beliefs may be reconsidered.
"The fact that it gets to you that you don't see miracles happen in your life means that you want God to make them happen and that shows that you DO believe in him."
This is the gray zone between belief and disbelief, HPM. There isn't a magic switch that turns off a lifetime of hopes and dreams and indoctrination... It blurs a lot in the middle. As soon as the question "What if there isn't any god out there listening to me?" gets asked, the emotional roller-coaster ride is on. It can literally take years before that ride comes to an end, and a lot of people are still hanging on and screaming as they go through another loop-the-loop.
"Atheism is supposedly the lack of belief. Not in just God but in anything other than science."
Incorrect. Atheism is merely the lack of belief in gods, nothing more.
"Science cannot explain all things. It cannot explain love. It can explain the process of love but it cannot explain the emotional connection you feel with someone."
Wait for it.
"I mean fundamentally why is it that when two hydrogen atoms and an oxygen atom form a covalent bond that the substance we know as water is produced? Why is it not something different?"
No reason. And, aside from its usefulness in organic chemistry, there is nothing special about water. It's just starstuff like everything else.
"Why does it have to have the properties it does?"
It doesn't "have to" have any properties. It simply has them.
"The theory of evolution basically says that a random mutation occurs and if the mutation is a favorable trait the mutated branch of a species lives and those with unfavorable traits die."
That's an acceptable working definition for the purposes of this discussion.
"Really though...isn't the fact that you have to believe that spontaneously for absolutely no given reason..."
Um... Just because we don't yet know the reason for something does not mean that there *is* no reason. Again, wait for it.
"Who is to say that the mutation of a gene is not the work of God?"
Possible, but you'll have to prove that your god actually exists before we can test that hypothesis. The burden of proof rests with the party making the affirmative claim. If you say "There is a god" I say, "Okay, ball's in your court. Prove it."
"The more we delve into science the more mysteries we find."
And those mysteries lead to...
...More answers!
Which is why I prefer science to a hypothetical and probably imaginary god.
Actually you, like millions of other xtians are grossly misinformed. Atheism is the lack of belief in anything unproven to exist.
You like millions of Christians are in fact Atheist's yourselves, if you do not believe in Allah or Zeus or Mirtha or Thor or any of the thousands of previous gods, then you are in fact yourself an Atheist to those gods.
Why do you not believe in mythological gods, but choose to believe in the Bible god without any proof?
Just because a book has Holy written on it, does that justify and prove it as being a Holy book?
Why did you happen to believe in the Christian bible god, was it because you researched all the other gods and rejected them and found the Christian god to be the only one with absolute proof to exist?
I hardly think so, you chose the bible god because you were told it was true, not because you were presented with any proof.
Did the Bible god speak to you personally and tell you that Christianity was true?
No, it's what you have personally chosen to believe.
Christianity is a belief, a belief that is passed down from people to people.
You have chosen to believe that a person without any beliefs is unworthy and less than a person than you, but it is only because you have been told that.
You must realize that what you have been told by others, is what you have chosen to believe, because it makes you feel good about yourself, it puts you on a pedistal.
Having a belief, makes you think and feel that you are for some reason better and one up on people than the people that do not have a belief, now that is sad.
I can imagine that you think you are for some reason, think that you're a better person than a Muslim, or a Jew, or a Morman, or a Hindu, or a Buddhist, because you have been told that Christianity is the best and truest religion that there is, but this is what you have been told, by whom? Other Christians.
So welcome to Atheism and don't ever put Atheism down, because you are an Atheist too.
hpm, you have been misinformed all your life, you've got alot to learn before you can come on here and make misinformed claims.
Yes..'got it...you are a person who is barely old enough to own and operate a car, who believes the Christian doctrine true, and you'd like to share your life-experience with us, after stumbling on to this site.
Of course, if you don't already know it, you should be informed that "belief", and "truth", are not mutually inclusive.
HPM...I'm not here to say everyone here should come running back to Christianity or even telling them to believe in God.
Phew!...that was close. What a relief to know that I don't have to do either, per a complete stranger's recommendation. Thanks for relieving me of that obligation.
HPM...In my own boredom I figured I would make a comment reflecting my view on religion.
'Next time you're bored, maybe brush up on sentence structuring...or perhaps what a logical fallacy is, instead.
HPM...Everyone is trying to shove their crap in your face and make you buy their stuff and not the other guys.
You, like all guest Christians, came here. That hardly constitutes us shoving anything in anyone's face. And frankly, I couldn't give a dookey less if you leave here an Atheist, or not. Besides, this is a website for former Christians; not necessarily one for "Atheists".
HPM...I would think it better for those who have their beliefs to follow them and if they wish to share make information available to those [who] want it, not force it on everyone and drive them to places like this out of spite.
Once more, if someone should stumble upon this site(like you), they are under no obligation to accept any information herein; they are perfectly free to navigate out of here.
HPM...I think atheists should be divided into two groups. Those [who] do not believe in God because they believe that science disproves it, and those [who] do not believe in God because they do not feel God in their lives as Christians.
Notice that in your attempt to classify "Atheists", in both classes, you make some fallacious assumptions. For one, if "God" has attributes that are "beyond our understanding", and "incomprehensible", etc..then said "God" has no identity; said being cannot be defined. Well, science cannot "disprove" what cannot be defined. That's fallacy # 1.
On the other hand, the Christian biblegod is clearly definable, and clearly within our understanding, since Christians claim to know so damned much about this "God", this of course, per their Holy hand-book, the bible.
Some of these attributes that Christians assign to this biblegod are, "omniscience", "omnipotence", omnibenevolence", "omnipresence", and others. Well, yes, the laws of logic can "disprove" any being who claims to know the future, and have limitless "free will". It is a blatant contradiction.(just one of the many) To illustrate better with analogy, science CAN disprove "square circles".
HPM...The latter is a fundamentally flawed reason to not believe in God.
Um, pardon me, but "the latter" classification of "Atheist" that you attempted to create, is what is "fundamentally flawed". There are plenty of people who "do not feel God in their lives as Christians", but yet, who feel "God in their lives" as Muslims, and Buddhists, etc. In other words, you assume that "God", and the Christian biblegod, are mutually inclusive. Fallacy # 2.
HPM...The fact that you feel that God has not acted in your life already shows your belief in him.
Nice try, but that reasoning is utterly absurd.
Firstly, telling complete strangers what they do and don't believe, isn't a very bright idea. Secondly, the lack of tangible evidence of something does not contribute to the plausibilty of its existence. Good grief, I hope you never do jury duty.
HPM...The fact that your emotions were affected should be enough proof to you that even though you say you don't believe in God, that on some level you really do.
Repeat: Absurd. History shows, that time and time again, man's emotions lead him away from reality. The simple presence of emotions says nothing of truth. To illustrate, does the fact that some of us got all excited and wound-up when we woke up and found that "Santa" had filled our stockings with goodies, mean that we, now as grown adults, believe in Santa Claus "on some level"? Of course not.
HPM...The fact that it gets to you that you don't see miracles happen in your life means that you want God to make them happen and that shows that you DO believe in him.
Uh huh, and do you believe that mere repetition will make something so? It appears that way.
HPM...Really these atheists are just Christians who are angry at God.
NO. Read me loud and clear: I do NOT believe in the existence of your biblegod, or any other "god". And there you go again assuming that if "God" exists, it is the Christian biblegod.
HPM...Again I'm not trying to say come flocking back to Christianity,
No, you're not saying that---what you are saying is that we are already Christians who are in some kind of "denial". 'Pretty f%cking arrogant.
HPM...I'm merely asking some people to really look at Why they chose to be atheist
Thanks for second-guessing me, seeing as how I was a Christian longer than you've been breathing.
HPM...Atheism is supposedly the lack of belief.
Yeah, like those who don't believe in the Toothfairy "supposedly" lack belief in the Toothfairy.
HPM...Not in just God but in anything other than science.
We don't believe in anything other than science? Where are you getting your information?...a gumball machine?
I have a novel idea--since you have encountered some Atheists, why not just ASK us what we do, and don't, believe.....instead of telling us?????
HPM...Science cannot explain all things.
Strawman. No one said it could "explain all things". That doesn't mean that fantasy magically becomes plausible.
HPM...It cannot explain love. It can explain the process of love but it cannot explain the emotional connection you feel with someone.
"Love" is an action word; a verb. We can logically infer when someone loves us, and when they don't.
HPM...With this I end my rant on that half of [atheists] and move on to those who believe science disproves God.
You should have ended your rant altogether, because thus far, it has been riddled with misinformation, logically fallacies, and horrible apologetics. As I already stated, we can disprove ANY being, "God", or not, who is claimed to both know the future, and have limitless free will. If the Christian biblegod exists, one attribute must go. Pick one.
HPM...I don't need to tell you that philosophers have gone round and round on the topic of the existence of God.
Irrelevant conclusion.
HPM...And really it has been stated by many that it would be easier to prove God exists than to prove that he doesn't.
Okay, good----your objective evidence for "God", please?
HPM...Science explains our sorroundings,and various processes but where in that does it disprove the existence of God?
I don't know, where does science "disprove" invisible purple pixies? Where does it "disprove" transparent elephants on Venus? It doesn't; it can't. The onus of proof, is in the lap of the one making the claim in the affirmative. Please learn the burden of proof(perhaps when your bored)
HPM...You can explain why two hydrogen atoms bond with an oxygen atom but can you explain why it bonds that way?
No, I cannot explain it. Perhaps the Easter bunny is responsible, yes?
HPM...The theory of evolution basically says that a random mutation occurs and if the mutation is a favorable trait the mutated branch of a species lives and those with unfavorable traits die. Really though...isn't the fact that you have to believe that spontaneously for absolutely no given reason a gene is altered and creates a new species the same as a believing in a miracle?
No--"miracle", by definition, is an extraordinary or unusual occurance. Evolution is a usual, and natural phenomenon.
HPM...And to believe that human beings evolved from single celled organisms, to much more complex organisms all through multiple random and spontaneous mutations in DNA like saying you believe in countless miracles?
No--evolution is usual, and natural.
HPM...Who is to say that the mutation of a gene is not the work of God?
No one. Who's to say it's not the work of Quetzacoatl?
HPM...Some may feel that saying that is a cop out of trying to find the actual answer..
..::raises hand::
HPM...but think about this: The more we delve into science the more mysteries we find.
Um, science admits when it doesn't know something. Conversely, religious convictions, such as yours, simply say "God did it!" when they don't know something. 'Big difference.
HPM...I firmly believe that no matter how advanced our civilization becomes and how far science goes there will always be those unknowns.
Yes, "unknowns". Okay, is this an admission that you DON'T KNOW how the universe came into existence?
HPM...Who is to say that these unknowns that we will inevitably find in science are not God or the work of God?
Here's an idea----how about we wait and answer that when/if we do know? 'Sound fair? Until then, I don't believe in "God". 'That okay with you?
HPM...Science can only go so far, the rest is human speculation.
That's odd, you just said the "unknowns that we will inevitably find". Contradict much?
HPM...I'm not saying I dislike atheists or think badly of a person simply because they are, but I think atheism is sad.
I think that children who are indoctrinated with the family belief before they are old enough to think for themselves, and who then grow into young adults who parrot what their mommies and daddies told them, is sad.
HPM...People who are so driven to not believe in God and to create an anti-religion which ends up becoming yet another religion.
Source, please?
HPM...YES I believe atheism is a religion.
YES I believe NOT collecting butterflies is a HOBBY.
HPM...Fundamentally atheism is the disbelief in God.
Yes! Bravo!
HPM...Inversely atheism is a belief. A belief that God does not exist.
Okay, so "inversely", Theism is non-belief?
HPM...Saying that, you are a group of people who do not believe in God who try to get others to not believe in God.
Consider this---stop insisting that "God" exists, because admittedly, you DON'T KNOW, and then active Atheism will become absolete. 'Deal?
HPM...Your religious practices? Scientific experimentation.
Science is self-correcting, and admits ignorance when it doesn't know something. Religious convictions do not. That is the difference.
HPM...Every lab I have to do in science class. Everytime you hear about that scientist who created a new polymer that can absorb 10x more sunlight than the last. All of those are your practices... There is no such thing as anti-religion because to be against a belief you have to yourself believe that the belief is fundamentally wrong.
You erroneuously equate "religion", with "belief". It's not, in every case. Just because I have a "belief" in electromagnetism, doesn't mean it's my "religion".
HPM...Human beings cannot escape religion.
We cannot escape that religion exists. However, we can choose to not be an adherent.
HPM...If you happen to choose ahteism, I just want you to make sure you choose it because that is what you want to believe in.
I don't "believe" in "Ahteism"; I lack belief in Theism.
HPM...Not because you're angry at a God you really do believe in or because some merchant is peddling their crap in your face louder than any of the others.
I don't believe in your "God", and I as well dismiss the thousands of gods that you dismiss. Are you "angry" at all those gods you dismiss?
HPM...So for those ex-christian atheists I ask you to reflect on yourselves and take a good look into your own beliefs.
Thanks-so-much....it would've never occurred to me to do that. What would we do without teenagers?
We must refute this straw man argument by xtians every time we encounter it. The attack on the science of evolution is just the beginning salvo in the attack on all of science. If these attacks succeed, civilization may sink back into a new dark age.
I'm glad you've reached such a state of enlighten that at 17 you can be certain of having wisdom to impart to those of us double and treble your age and more.
Just one word of caution: At 17, I had also attained such a state of profound wisdom--and it looked much like your wisdom. I realized what a fool I'd been before my 21st birthday. Mark my words: your condescension will haunt you one day.
Beanheel