Sent in by Steve Johnsons
I am a practicing Christian and I go to the Moody Bible Institute in Chicago Illinois. Every day I am surrounded by some of the most ignorant people that I know. As a matter of fact, I only have one friend who confronts the tough questions of Christianity, like the origin of evil and some other tough ideas.
I have been questioning my faith for a few weeks now. It's not that I don't have the "willpower" to believe, if you want to say that. It's whether I "want" to believe anymore. The "world" has become much more appealing to my eyes, and God, who does not communicate to me, has become less appealing.
I am sick and tired of these fucking ignorant answers I get from every Christian I know. It seems as though they believe in God with no evidence, which is stupid. Why would anyone believe in something they can't see or have at least not experienced.
I have experienced God, or so I think. I have cried in worship, I have spoken in new tongues. I have begun to doubt all of these experiences and am wondering if they were all just emotion. I wonder, does Christian music just have very emotional music patterns? I can listen to some music and immediately begin to cry.
Anyway, is there anyone I should talk to on this site? As I am having many doubts. What I want though, is not for someone to try and entice me to be a non-Christian, but only to encourage me to think rationally about some things. I have found that Christians are some of the most irrational thinkers I know. When i try to engage many in conversation, they are just retarded. Anyone I should talk to?
Thanks.
johnsonsDOTsteve[AT]gmailDOTcom
These letters were published between January 2001 and February 2010. To view recent posts, go to The Main Blog at ExChristian.Net
76 comments:
It seems to me you have come to the realization that maybe there is no god. I too am from Chicago and used to ride on the bus past the Moody Bible Institute, for awhile I read it as the Moody Blues Institute LOL. It's quite easy to face life's perils on your own without the cop out of "it's god's will" or to blame something on something you can't see much less have proof of it's existence. Try giving up your silly god for a month and see how you do, you'll probably feel better knowing you got through it on your own personal courage than the cop out of a god. If you spoke in tongues it had to be the 70's and it must have been good LSD. The one person who I can think of to help you see the error of your ways and put it into perspective for you I would want his permission to give you his name first as he is a very busy man, so how about it Bob are you up to saving one more person?
Mary in Alaska
You wont find ANY sort of solice in other peoples opinions. THERE ARE NO ANSWERS FOR THE "TOUGH" QUESTIONS OF XTIANITY. How can it be verified that a dude was born of a Virgin, walked on H2O and raised from the dead?
It cant be.
ABSOLUTELY NONE OF IT CAN!
FAITH!
It is the same kind of questions that an ancient day Greek I bet wondered about Zeus? I could see him asking his friends how they can believe in a god with no sort of evidence whatsoever. He believed, much as you do, cause your moma and papa did, your best friends do and your peers at the jobsite. You just do it cause its the "popular" thing to do! How many of those fucking bumper stickers must I see that say "NOT OF THIS WORLD" or something to that effect? Xtians act like they are "rebels" but in reality pretty much everyone in America came from the background to believe in the Bible myth!
My suggestion to you is just to believe and not to ask any sort of silly questions! It will just drive you mad when you realize how CLUELESS everyone else is and that NO ONE knows any of the Bible actually happened and just accept that you believe because of EMOTIONALISM and feeling SPECIAL with the music playig and everyone thinking that they got a "get out of jail free card".
JUST BELIEVE IT AND DONT BEAT YOURSELF UP OVER THOSE NAGGING DOUBTS! Trust me, Ive been there and the more I thought about it the more I agreed with Atheists. I do believe in some sort of higher power or God but just not the Biblegod.
How could a God of the Bible endorse genocide, masochism and rape? I had a Near Death Experience when I fell 60 ft climbing and do you want to know what I found out from my experience?
I found out that God is not concerned about WHAT you believe but how willing you are TO FOLLOW THE GOLDEN RULE.
Dont be a bigoted asshole to people and live a good life and I am sure as you die you will look back and realize that you did try to understand the truth and thats what matters.
God is not interested in the "Nicene Creed" or some other magick formula that you must follow in order to have a good afterlife but the quality of the life you are living NOW.
Like I said earlier, just try to be a good person and accept the fact that Xtianity is a myth and thats that?! There is no evidennce of God save the fact that when you look up to the stars at night and realize how fucking BIG the Universe is that there HAS to be something bigger out there than a lame ass human! There are hundreds of thousands more planets out there and dont buy the atheist crap that we are all alone in the Universe! Anybody with a brain knows that is bullshit!
Believe in God and give to the poor. Help a brother out. Laugh. Learn. Live!
There is nothing more that you can do ok?
So forget your nagging questions and just go to Church and try to live according to the positive morals espoused. Dont fuck your neighbors wife, lie, cheat or steal a Buick. Even an atheist will agree with me on that one. Dont beat the shit our of yourself for little questions that are technically meaningless and try to live your life as "Holy" as you can with Jesus and His water walking abilities as your guide and you will be fine.
You dont want to be an atheist.
It is far too lonely and nobody understands why you are doing it anyways.
Trust me on that one. I converted to atheism 2 years ago and all it did was help me to lose friends and make people think I was a weirdo.
Just take it from me and believe the myth that has been jammed down your throat ever since the day you popped out of mommas vagina.
Its ok.
Plus it is FAR less lonely than an atheist is! (even if it is true)
Biblegod Bless You :)
Your experiences of God are very real, and very misleading. Jesus saved me, yet over time I came to understand the delusion that occurred. Our brains are programmed to have ecstatic experiences that have no real bases. It is hard for an individual to sort out why this is so, at least without some help, and many don't. You have, or are at least in the process of doing so, and are to be congratulated on that.
Over time, you will sort it all out. One way or another. I suspect another. I sorted it out as understanding the ways of delusion, as realizing that everything I experience is a brain wave, and nothing more. I know that I will live my life to the best of my ability, and then I will die.
I will die, totally and absolutely. There is no afterlife, no heaven, and certainly no hell reserved for those whose belief is based on reason or belief in something other than "the one true religion".
Think about it. A god who accepts evil in his creation is not good, and is not omniscient. There are multiple statements of what this means, and all of them logically argue against god.
Anyway, it might be hard, but good luck to you, however it comes out.
Your experiences of God are very real, and very misleading. Jesus saved me, yet over time I came to understand the delusion that occurred. Our brains are programmed to have ecstatic experiences that have no real bases. It is hard for an individual to sort out why this is so, at least without some help, and many don't. You have, or are at least in the process of doing so, and are to be congratulated on that.
Over time, you will sort it all out. One way or another. I suspect another. I sorted it out as understanding the ways of delusion, as realizing that everything I experience is a brain wave, and nothing more. I know that I will live my life to the best of my ability, and then I will die.
I will die, totally and absolutely. There is no afterlife, no heaven, and certainly no hell reserved for those whose belief is based on reason or belief in something other than "the one true religion".
Think about it. A god who accepts evil in his creation is not good, and is not omniscient. There are multiple statements of what this means, and all of them logically argue against god.
Anyway, it might be hard, but good luck to you, however it comes out.
I tried to post a meaningful response. Google ID screwed me, and not for the first time, and I am tired of it. Screw Google. Find a better way to let people respond.
this is a test. Google Id is a joke.
Google ID is a freaking joke
I have tried to post a response to this under Google ID. Google ID redirects to something irrelevant. Do something other than Google ID.
Here is my response to this post.
=================
Your experiences of God are very real, and very misleading. Jesus saved me, yet over time I came to understand the delusion that occurred. Our brains are programmed to have ecstatic experiences that have no real bases. It is hard for an individual to sort out why this is so, at least without some help, and many don't. You have, or are at least in the process of doing so, and are to be congratulated on that.
Over time, you will sort it all out. One way or another. I suspect another. I sorted it out as understanding the ways of delusion, as realizing that everything I experience is a brain wave, and nothing more. I know that I will live my life to the best of my ability, and then I will die.
I will die, totally and absolutely. There is no afterlife, no heaven, and certainly no hell reserved for those whose belief is based on reason or belief in something other than "the one true religion".
Think about it. A god who accepts evil in his creation is not good, and is not omniscient. There are multiple statements of what this means, and all of them logically argue against god.
Anyway, it might be hard, but good luck to you, however it comes out.
Carl,
Every one of your comments posted. There are several other methods for posting if Google ID frustrates you. If you need some help, message me.
Hi Steve,
What helped me the most in sorting out the confusion of ideas and claims was this one question; Is the bible what it claims to be? Yes or no?
When you realize that the biblical writings are from the imaginations of men (just like the other "false religions") you'll find the rest of the picture starts to come into focus.
Set your emotions (and emotion driven advise) aside and do some investigation. Don't be afraid to tap information that exists OUTSIDE the "box".
It sounds to me that you're already well on your way to "Breaking the Spell" via study and your reasoning skills.
Education is your best tool. Use it.
Not sure who you need to talk to, if you really do need to at all, but I can give you some things you may want to ponder:
The "world" has become much more appealing to my eyes, and God, who does not communicate to me, has become less appealing.
How can something (such as a god concept) that does not exist become less appealling? Is it possible you are waking up to the awesomeness of the world around you and you only thought it was a god when it was not? Not sure if that makes sense, but think of it in Carl Sagan terms. Maybe you are realizing it was not the idea of God that was amazing, but whether the world itself.
Could it be possible that you have come to the point where you are about to say, "OK, it's not what I thought, but I can be happy with the transcending bueaty of nature, the world, and the universe" and "what I thought was god was only a human concept to explain the unexplainable, such as overwhelming emotions, and nothing more"?
Just some thoughts for you and it is a long way of saying you might be starting to realize there is no God, at least there is no god of religion- any religion. However, once you answer those questions and similar ones, for yourself, honestly/truthfully, then you may not be wondering so much who you need to talk to, but whether to seek out people who are thinking similarly.
If I were to tell you that those things are just emotions, a chemical reaction in the brain (which I believe it is), I would be as bad as those who tell you they are some deity and not something that's part of the human condition. These are things you should actually research thoroughly and define/answer for yourself. Only you can answer such questions and decide IF you still believe anymore. For me, once I began to answer those tough pesonal questions, did I realize it wasn't a choice anymore- I could not believe in the god of religion and I had to redefine various things on a scientific and psychological level- not a religious level. Even so, I had to answer many similar questions for myself.
Steve, You've got a wonderful start. When I was where you are I purchased a book from the Freedom from religion web site, "Losing Faith in Faith", by Dan Barker, From Preacher to Atheist. He went through the same things you are going through but takes you all the way out...its the closest thing to talking to some one.
Hope you can transfer out of Moody..bad place for you to be.Once you make it all the way you will be the happiest, peaceful person you have ever been! And it will continue on for the rest of your truly free life..garenteed!!
There are hundreds of thousands more planets out there...
You're making this shit up. There are actually an estimated ten trillion planetary *systems* in the known universe, let alone individual planets.
and dont buy the atheist crap that we are all alone in the Universe!
You are a liar. Name one "atheist" resource that makes this absurd claim. There is no way for us currently to know if life exists elsewhere in the universe.
"You dont want to be an atheist.
It is far too lonely and nobody understands why you are doing it anyways.
Trust me on that one. I converted to atheism 2 years ago and all it did was help me to lose friends and make people think I was a weirdo."You are an ignorant troll:
Convert (v) - to cause to adopt a different religion, political doctrine, opinion, etc.: to convert the heathen.
If you claim to have 'converted' to atheism, then you never have been or currently are an atheist. Using your tortured logic, you can just as well say that you took up not collecting stamps as a hobby two years ago.
And speak for yourself about being lonely and a weirdo. Since shedding the ridiculous notion of a god constantly watching over my shoulder, I have never felt more happy with my life.
In Steve's case here, you're only helping to further demonstrate that using any kind of god to provide rational answers to your questions is intellectually destitute.
I have to say that this seems very fishy. I'm not saying it is, but it seems like this is a comment written by a less than educated atheist, not a confused christian.
You know, the atheist who thinks if he acts like a christian and questions christianity, then mabye other christians will question it also. But if that's what this is, it's a poor and sloppy attempt. Mabye I'm wrong.
But even if taken at face value, I question the mental stability and honesty of a person who is a practicing christian in bible college (this alone), but who is also willing to use "fucking" as an adjective to describe his peers. All this within a months time. The only thing that hints that this may be a screwed-up christian is that he suggest it's god or the world. Christians generally do describe things that aren't of god as worldly. It's not god or worldly things; it's superstition or reason and evidence. And if anyone can answer his question of how christians can be so ignorant, it's him. He was there just weeks earlier. And if he's so disgusted by the high percentage of christian stupidity (because of the obvious errors in their belief system and their unwillingness to confront these fallacies and contradictions), and by their lack of willingness to question themselves; then why would he beg off inspiration and guidence toward non-christianity, and only want a little shove toward reason? Amoung many others, non-christianity and reason go hand in hand.
SUPERNOVA & AUBREYDAWN
Steve,
Most of us who had been believers in the christian 'way' have gone through similar feelings. I'll second Mriana's comments by saying that you really need to work it out for yourself, as none of us is wired in the exact same way.
I enjoyed your comments about not getting answers from christians to tough questions. It had been my experience that the more conservative a person's god-belief, the more 'pat' the answer to any question. Almost like they were afraid to voice their own opinion. All very Orwellian if you ask me.
I notice that there are comments that are sincere, others that are IMHO totally wacked, and some that are rather rude and insulting. Welcome to the human condition.
No doubt this is similar to your experiences with christians (certainly it was with me). This is due to the fact that, no matter what our beliefs, we are still all just humans, with all the attendant foibles.
I still attend services with my family, though I am no longer a believer. Things I used to accept so easily now make me squirm when I hear them. You may find this happening to yourself. Of great interest to me is how we are all to have faith without proof, but none of those people in the bible had to endure the same scenario. Whether Paul or the apostles, Elijah or Abraham, Moses or Malachi, they all had some sort of proof (or voice/vision/miracle) on which to hang their belief. Why not us?
I am of the opinion that we must all choose our path in life, regardless of the opinions of others, and if you want to be a christian, buddhist, tree-hugger or agnostic/atheist, then have at it.
Though I don't hold with much of somasight's views, I will say that doing our best to be humane, decent, caring people, even in the face of adversity, is a noble challenge and one I try to accept. If in the end it is all for naught, then at least I was content and did no harm -- for me that is reward enough.
The reason I said I am still a christian is because I still believe in the God of the Bible. I have just been thinking of all the grief and confusion the Christian faith has brought me, and whether I want to believe anymore. I refuse to believe in a God who I cannot experience or understand. I will not be a deist. Just because I speak badly of my own kind, doesn't mean I'm an atheist with an agenda. I go to a school where fellow students lie, cheat, and steal. In my dorm room, "Christians" take online quizzes and tests together, and other times trade them, when they are meant to be taken alone. Students sign eachother in for chapel, with no conviction at all. Christ's death claims a supernatural power to conquer sin in the Christian's life, but every Christian I look at is in bondage, or walks joyfully in sin. They live against the principals that 1 John describes as what a genuine believer is. These are the reasons.
I wish you well on your journey to "freethinking." When I started researching religion is when I was able to sort out all of the answers I needed my whole life.
I recommend seeing the movie Zeitgeist, at least the first part of the movie that talks about how religion started. There are lots of awesome websites out there that will help you see things for what they really are.
http://zeitgeistmovie.com/main.htm
Here's another great website filled with information.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
Thank you awl. I have seen the movie zeitgeist and been to the god amputees site. Zeitgeist was very convincing, however, I will need to continue research as it may not be academically credible. Whywontgodheaamputees has great questions that every christian needs to be able to answer.
Steve,
You ask for some rationality. Be careful what you ask for. Moody Bible Institute Christianity and rationality are incompatible. It only took my first two years of humanities courses at a secular college to turn me from a proselytizing Baptist fundamentalist to a committed atheist. (That’s why fundamentalists hate the humanities.)
If you are serious in your search, enroll in some humanities courses at a secular college, e.g. philosophy, psychology, sociology, literature, history, comparative religion, etc.
Good luck!
Hi Steve,
I'm a former born again conservative Christian, and I also spoke in tongues (still can), and spent a lot of time writing Christian music as well. I can feel where you're coming from. I experienced intense joy like never before one night while praising God in a living room meeting with arms raised. But I never heard God speak anything intelligible, nor had any visions (Catholics seems to excell at the visionary thing, Jesus and Mary especially. Must be their brains being primed by constant interaction with a history of visionary sightings, and by their visionary artwork, stained glass, visually stunning church architecture, statues with all those halos, the theatrics and costumes of mass, etc. While Protestants claim to "hear" God more often than "see" Him, since they prime themselves via verbal auditory preaching and usually settle for bare bones looking churches, disdaining statues and stressing the memorization of Bible verses. By the way southern Protestants claim to hear God speaking more often on average than northern ones do. And I've wondered whether God speaks to southern Protestants with a southern twang in his voice or not. (Not that those who hear it might notice the twang, since they are already from the south.)
Also, native americans speak of their "vision quests" and meeting buffalo totems and other animals in their visionary dream-quests. Hindus and Buddhists have NDEs in which they see the Buddha, or one Thailand buddist's NDE on the web in which he meets the divine in the form of a turtle.
Hindus also speak about the joys of attaining sammadhi, while Buddhists speak of nirvana, and heroin addicts speak of their first dose which they claim is a thousand times better than the best sex in your life (and they keep chasing that dragon by redosing but are never able to attain the same initial height).
After my own experience of intense joy I hugged people, my eyes got wet, and I was very loving, feely touchy, for a few years afterwards as well, and sometimes I could feel that joy again though to a lesser extent and for a shorter duration, but never as great as the first time. Since I am not a devout Buddhist or Hindu I don't know what they experience when they experience such joys as sammadhi or nirvana. Though one Christian wrote a book comparing the born again experience of one Zen school with that of Christianity since the Buddhists in that school were taught to focus on the pains of hell and how much they deserved it, until they could sense the grace and joy of a sort of absolution. The book is titled Once-Born, Twice-Born Zen by Conrad Hyers. It's short and interesting. So are Hyers's other books on the spirituality of comedy in all the world's religions. He's a sort of universalist (and pro-theistic evolution if you read his excellent work, The Meaning of Creation).
I also have never taken heroin, so I don't know if that might compare with the experience of tingling joy I felt throughout my body while praising Jesus.
At any rate, such questions intrigue me, but the experience itself was not enough to keep me in the fold, since like you, my questions began to multiply faster than the ability of my rational mind to ignore them or rationalize them away. A mind once stretched by a new idea or new question from a new angle, is not likely to fully regain its original dimensions.
You can read my testimony online, google
"If It Wasn't For Agnosticism I Wouldn't Know WHAT to Believe"
See also, Leaving the Fold: Testimonies of Former Fundamentalists (a book I edited)
Also, have you read Bart Ehrmann's latest book? God's Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question--Why We Suffer
Bart studied the Bible at Moody Bible Institute (his personal story about that is in his previous book, Misquoting Jesus), but grew increasingly agnostic at Wheaton college and as he continued his climb toward becoming a premier textual critic of the Bible.
Also Michael Bird asks the interesting questions about the role of textual criticism in historical Jesus study, and proceeds to give some short answers, with some very interesting links to agrapha:
http://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blogspot.com/2008/01/textual-criticism-and-historical-jesus.html
Also keep an eye out for something else that's interesting on the web: "Biblical Studies Carnival" Highly recommended. I also like the blog by an Evangelical named "Chris" over in Germany, the blog is named "Chrisendom" (without the "t")
Note, someone liked my comments on this blog regarding questions aimed at the resurrection:
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3804581703285362383&postID=5408739715601985479
Ed
("Edward T. Babinski" on the web)
Steve,
I am a devout atheist, de-converted from fundamentalist Christianity 28 years ago. I used to speak in tongues, I have led at least five people to Christ. So I know the confusion that you're talking about.
The confusion comes from realizing that your entire mindset, your view of the world has a false foundation. The pain of this mindset collapsing is unbearable.
It takes time to get used to the idea that eternity is not for us. No Jesus, no God, no Heaven, no Hell.
It takes time to get used to the idea that your sins didn't really matter as much as you thought.
The problem is now finding what gives life meaning. For me, I have my wife, my two kids, my friends, my job, my hobbies, my thirty year mortgage (which is enough meaning for anybody).
What is also very important to me is the cultivation of my own thoughts. Getting hold of reliable information about the world and studying it in a critical manner.
Here are some of the books that helped me develop my world view:
"Cosmos" by Carl Sagan
"The Demon Haunted World" by Carl Sagan
"Who wrote the New Testament?" by Burton Mack
"The Jesus Puzzle" by Earl Doherty
all scholarly works.
It took me three years to get over it, but I didn't have any help from anybody. Maybe with some help, you'll fair better.
I'll leave you with one of my favorite quotes:
"Atheism is more than just the knowledge that gods do not exist, and that religion is either a mistake or a fraud. Atheism is an attitude, a frame of mind that looks at the world objectively, fearlessly, always trying to understand all things as a part of nature." - Carl Sagan
Cheers
Ok, I was a little more compassionate in my 1st comment until I read your 2nd post, then I deleted my 1st comment.
Steve, Steve... why the hell are you on ex-christian if you have no intentions of leaving christianity? I've been where you are. My husband went to Central Bible College and I was in Master's Commission for 2 years. I could never understand why in the world people would do the hypocritical things they did. Then, when I left christianity I realized something. I was the gullible one. The last couple of years of my "journey" on the forefront, I was a sold out believer, but deep , down... in the abyss of my soul... I knew. There was nothing out there. No God, No heaven, No hell. It was made up. I understood that most people are this way. I'm not saying everyone is actually and atheist hiding in christian clothing. I'm saying that people totally believe what they do... but sub-conciously they know that there is no god to punish them for what they do... And they are assholes. Now that I'm an atheist I am a whole lot more honest than I ever was and the other atheists that I know are a lot more moral than any christian i have ever met.
I never said i had no intentions of leaving the christian faith. I said that, while I am still a believer, I have some questions.
Hi Steve,
That is very brave of you to bare your soul to us here. Thanks for trusting us.
As to the "experience of God" question you pose, I have had many interesting experiences regarding this. When I was I Christian, I felt god's spirit many times in Church, but after I left, and even during my questioning, I felt the exact same spirit at what Christians would call very unusual times.
Such as when I had the realization that the Christian god was not real. I had that tingling energy move up my spine and a feeling of peace come over me. Also, a friend of mine talked me into going into a Native American like weekend retreat, complete with sweat lodge and beating drums, and again had that exact same sensation of god during part of the experience. And I can't overemphasize the word exact.
So I came to the conclusion that it was one of either two possibilities - either it was just some weird emotional response, or God is not understood by the Christian religion. Either way, the Christian experience proves to be nothing extraordinary in this regard.
If it helps you, and you want to still believe in God, as the many who have left Christianity still do, try to image that God is touching people everywhere in all kinds of religious and not-religious situations, trying to help them relax and have a good life. He/She may even be trying to reach out to Christians to tell them more about himself, but they keep pushing him away, saying all the while; "We don't need you. We have the book, and so quit bugging us."
In my opinion, either God is not there, or he is a lot bigger and different than Christianity thinks.
I am willing to chat more about it if you find what I wrote interesting. A lot of my friends are still Christians, and I have don't feel the need to de-convert them. But I do enjoy talking about this stuff with open minded Christians.
lkasari[at]bendcableDOTc.o.m.
-Lance
well from a faith based christians oppinion not a religion based one, you have to take anything that involves a religion with a grain of salt. not that religion is wrong it provides a community for a lot of ppl, but it has its donwfalls. alot of churches use emotional music to get ppl to experience jesus, but if thats all a faith is based on it wont work. cause unforunately life suxs and once you dont "feel" God anymore you fall apart. i've been there i understand that, the test of true christianity is believing.i realize thats why you said you dont like christians but thats the tru test...all he asks is belief and love. everything else is based on what you choose to do with those two things. i kno you said that God hasnt communicated with you, but alot of times its us who quit listening to God. there has to be a reason your at a bible institute obviously at one time you felt gods call so what happened to make it stop. you said the world seems more appealing have you thought that maybe you've tuned God out to do what you wanted. i'm not criticizing just seeing if you've considered this. i know that when yur doubting yur faith its really hard to figure things out especially when you go to a school where alot of ppl are idiots. have you thought about finding a school and a church where yur comfortable, maybe yur in the wrong place? christians are irrational i agree, but not all, its not as easy as some of the pertend it is, but have you thought of seriously asking God for answers and actually listening. i kno thats my biggest problem i ask but dont listen, because i dont always want to here what he has to say, and its hard. it is and anyone who pretends its not is ridiculous. but seriously ask him your questions he welcomes questions. i'm not going to tell you i have answers for you, i dont. i'm not going to say be strong and hang in there, because its so much more than that, but i'm also not gonna tell you to just give up on God and try living your life without him. you could prolly lose the idiot christians who dont know what there talking about, but not God. dont judge him by his followers hes way better then them.and i kno you might not like my response as much as others...but thats just something i'll live with because its not as easy as watching a movie or just quiting yur faith.... well...i guess i'm rambling...but i'll just pray that you find what yur looking for, and i'll pray for you.
hearts,
Jillbean
Steve said: "The reason I said I am still a christian is because I still believe in the God of the Bible".
Steve, have you read the Bible? Surely, if you have you can't be serious in continuing your belief in the Bible God. Richard Dawkins in his God Delusion describes this god as a psychotic delinquent. I would add: a barbaric,freakish,egoistic,racialist,infanticidal, sadomasochistic, revengeful, malevolent, insane, genocidal maniac [have run out of adjectives at the moment].
Proof? Just for a start re-read, if necessary, the Old Testament. That will convince you.
Such an insane, stupid God is not worthy of worship.
Do what I did.... I got it from another post on this site about a year ago.
Take your bible and start reading, but just replace the word "God" with "Zeus". Pick any other ancient god name for "Jesus" and do the same.
The stories become utterly ridiculous from a christian point of view, but from the rational point of view, it doesn't matter what name is in the spot. It was one of the many REAL awakenings I'd had concerning "god" and the fictional and allegorical nature of biblical stories.
I'd suggest watching the first part of "Zeitgeist" which can be found for free on zeitgeist.com
If you are willing to hear the real history, you will be willing to really free your mind of doubt. You must ask yourself "why are all of the church's answers rhetorical and mystical when confronted with critical questions?"
You need to not so much study the bible, but study the HISTORY of the bible as a book. How that book was actually compiled is an eye opener. The unerring "Word of God"? I think not....
Keep asking questions, above all. Don't stop until you are satisfied with the answers, because it all boils down to you. You will have to live with feelings of dissatisfaction from ignorance, or the freedom of real knowledge - not your priest, not your family, not your friends...YOU. You've got a life to live. Don't squander it.
Jillian,
You are kidding us with that post you made....Right?
This was a joke post, I HOPE!!
I tried really hard to find something 'right' about it to mention here, but frankly I couldn't.
No, I take that back. You did say one thing right...
"i guess i'm rambling"
ATF (Who named your 'song' as written by a xtain, in 3 "notes" or less)
Hi again Steve,
In another post you said "I refuse to believe in a God who I cannot experience or understand. I will not be a deist."
To be an honest seeker of truth you can't start with a set final position, and then pick or mold the evidence to fit your preconceived conclusion. You have to put all the data on the table and find the truth that it points to. You have to trust the brain you were given.
Even in Proverbs chapter 2 it says to seek after wisdom and truth with all you have. To dig for it a if for buried treasure or hidden silver. That does not mean trusting someone that hands you their version of truth. You are required to search it out for yourself.
That is a big problem with religion in general - that they hand you stuff that does not make sense and then tell you that you have to just believe, that you can't trust your own reasoning, even when what they say is obviously not true.
You see the problem. The Bible says that Christians will be different, that they will be miraculously healed, that they will do greater signs and wonders than Jesus himself. But you can see for yourself that this is not true. The god of the bible does not seem to be living among the faithful.
If God is really true, then pray to him to show you the truth. But then be willing to search outside of the "truth" that has been pounded into your head since childhood. Just as you would hope you would be able to do if you were raise as a Mormon, and started to question the angel and the golden tablets.
Many of the people that visit this web site prayed that prayer over and over again, and the answer they got was that the Christian god is a fabrication.
Honestly search it out and you may find the same thing yourself. Or you may take your faith to a deeper level. But question everything to get there. Start with the position that you may be wrong and see where the facts lead.
Lastly, let's say there is an afterlife and you get to meet God. You can honestly tell him that you sought after truth with everything you were given, and you lived your life in a way that would honor a good god. You may find that you can live with more honesty, integrity and love without a religious establishment telling you what to think.
Peace, and good luck in your search.
Lance
thank you lance for your encouragement. although i hate ignorance, i tend to be ignorant myself. I try to live with an open mind though, I wish harm to no one and don't want to impose my beliefs on everyone. People keep asking me why i still continue to believe in the god of the bible, when it is apparent that the bible is flawed. This is because I have been a christian my whole life, almost daily I think about God, I pray, I read my bible, etc. I can't drop my whole foundation at the drop of a hat. If i recant today, I may pick it back up tomorrow. This will be a process for a while. I wouldn't expect a devout atheist to immediately become a christian the minute they see evidence of a creator.
I appreciate your advice to start with all the data on the table. I need to start from phase one and assume nothing. I guess my programmed assumptions are a part of my brainwashing. Thanks for the help, i'll keep you updated.
I am a former Christian and I tried the Atheist path, I tried the Pagan path, I tried the Buddhist path, etc. Even started reading the Satanic Bible(which a person could be an Atheist and practice Satanism), but the one thing I will tell you(and this will piss off the Atheists in here but I don't care) is that every Christian is full of shit and every Atheist is full of shit. In fact anyone who claims any kind of absolute that can't be proven OR DISPROVEN is full of shit. If you believe in your conception of god, fuck everyone else. Who gives a shit what other people think anyway, if it makes you happy who cares. Wether there is a god or not is irrelevant. I say look at Jesus' teachings, look at the Buddhas teachings, look at Atheist teachings(Richard Dawkins for instance), look at everything and THEN decide what you believe or simply take what you need to make yourself out to be the person you want to be. You should be comfortable in a Christian church, an Atheist gathering, a Buddhist temple, a Muslim mosque, a Pagan event, etc. Why? ALL religions are man made....no one knows what happens after we die, no one knows wether we cease to exhist or if there is some kind of an afterlife and anyone that says one or the other if full of shit because they don't have a fucking clue because THEY HAVEN'T DIED AND COME BACK FROM THE DEAD.....no one has ever come back from the dead(near death experiences are suspect because we still understand little about the brain). Am I agnostic, no. Do I care about "titles" ie-Christian, Atheist, Buddhist, Wiccan, Satanist, etc....NO because none of it matters. The only thing that matters if what kind of person I am and my character.
One other thing....when I said "every" Christian or Atheist I was merely speaking in general terms because I am sure that not all Atheists are as militantly against the possibility that there beliefs and ideas could be wrong, and I know that not every Christian takes the bible literally, so I don't mean everyone(just the ones that dogmatically think they know everything...)-for the Christians it's because such and such a bible verse says so and for the Atheists it's because this or that theorum or equation says so...blah blah blah same bullshit I heard in church. When I say that I think Atheism is a religion I mean that any time people are dogmatic about an ideal-ANY ideal-that ideal has become there religion. So I could classify PETA as a religion by my standards, or various dating coaches doctrines, or PS3 fanboys, or movie buffs, etc....I guess my point is to fine tune your bullshit detector and pull no punches in being honest with yourself...don't let fear keep you from attaining the kind of life that you want just because you were taught from an early age that if you do this or that you'll be punished at the final judgement(went through that horseshit so many times when it came time to have sex, gotta love the Baptists and there hatred of something as basic and wonderful as the pleasure of getting laid). Yet that old programming is there, and I have to ask myself why am I afraid of having sex? If the answer to that question from deep in my SUBCONCIOUS is just because the bible said so then I need to get honest with myself and reprogram that because it's NOT REALITY. Sure I could catch a disease, sure I could get someone pregnant, but will I be struck with lightning by "god".....nope, hasn't happened yet and porn stars have sex all the time and none of them have been struck by lightning....that's that good ole bullshit detector doing it's job......so what kind of life do you want and what kind of person do you want to be? What kind of woman do you want because people at your church well TELL you what you should want and what kind of woman you should want...but surprise surprise none of them have to wake up next to her. I used to be told that me as a man has to be with a woman that I am not attracted to because if I was with one that I wanted it would be lust and therefore "sinful"....BULLSHIT!!! They don't have to live my life and they don't really care because they have to live there life. What kind of a life do you want? Go after that and attain it with or without your conception of god.....
Hey Telmi,
you forgot to mention when talking about descripive words for the biblical god:
spoiled brat, egotistical, manipulative, basically acts like an alcoholic parent that always gives ultimatums and pretends to not enjoy punishing his children for being themselves beating them telling them that it's for there own good because he "loves" them(he created them to be the way they are by manipulating them to become what they did knowing that it would happen which makes him a sadistic son of a bitch) and obviously has a lust for blood-beyond that then having the audacity to proclaim that he accepts people unconditionally but when conditions that don't meet his expectations are present we see clearly how "unconditional" his "love" actually is......just thought I would add that in there:)
Wiseman27:
No, YOU are the one that is full of shit.
Atheism strictly and literally means LACK of a theistic belief system. As such, it is impossible for atheism to be religious in nature, no matter how "religiously" one puts themselves behind atheism. To say that one is a devout atheist is an oxymoron, and a clear indicator that that person does not know what the hell they are talking about.
I understand where your misunderstanding comes from. The phrase "religiously" is applied to anything that a person does or thinks vigorously. "He humped her leg religiously." That does not mean that it has its basis in religion. Religion, by its very nature, requires a BELIEF in a THEISTIC thought system.
http://www.google.com/search?q=define:religion&um=1&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1T4HPID_en___US245&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw
It's a lovely turn of prhase you're trying to work out there, but you're wrong. You've had the wool pulled over your eyes. It is a religious polemic that atheism is a religion. The religious of the world want you to think that EVERYONE has a "religion," no matter how UN-religious that religion is. As usual, the religious are wrong. Big surprise there.
Wiseman27 and Trancelation,
I consider myself a devout atheist, and I do religiously follow atheist doctrine, which is the firm belief in science, reason, logic, and developing beliefs based on solid evidence.
This is dogma (a doctrine accepted without question). When we atheists argue a point, we dogmatically ask what science says about it, whether it's reasonable, logical, we look for solid evidence. These are the precepts of our thinking. It is quite distinct from Christian or other religious dogma.
The First Church of Atheism puts it this way, “Nothing exists besides natural phenomena. Thought is merely a function of that natural phenomena. Death is complete, and irreversible. We have faith solely in humankind, nature, and the facts of science.”
www.firstchurchofatheism.com
Carl Sagan puts it like this, "Atheism is more than just the knowledge that gods do not exist, and that religion is either a mistake or a fraud. Atheism is an attitude, a frame of mind that looks at the world objectively, fearlessly, always trying to understand all things as a part of nature."
Some people choose to define atheism as merely the non-belief in deities, in which case a young child who has never heard of any deity would also fall into this category, but is this what we mean when we say "atheist"?
In our society, when we say "atheist", it is usually a label given to someone who has been given the choice of belief in God but has refused, which leads to the question, "What does an atheist believe in, then?"
Perhaps not all people who call themselves atheists may claim to choose to adhere to science, logic, and reason, but most prominent atheists, like Carl Sagan, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Daniel Dennett, etc. ... , and even most of the people you find on this Website who call themselves atheists, do.
Nevertheless, even if you could find a non-science believing atheist and asked him why he doesn't believe in God, he would probably answer with something like, "It's just not reasonable." Science and logic are based on reason that we have derived from nature. Hence, we have the above definitions including science, nature, logic, and reason.
Atheism certainly is not an organized religion in the sense that Catholicism is an organized religion. There is not an authoritative body with a titular head, there is no atheist holy book, there has been no tradition of atheist congregations or atheist clergy. (Though, there have been atheist congregations and clergy recently. You can find them on the Web.)
Whether or not you call atheism a religion is up to you, I suppose. The individual can define his own beliefs any way he chooses, just as in other religions. However, the unswerving faith in nature, science, reason, logic, and evidence-based beliefs is most certainly dogma, very good dogma, but dogma nonetheless.
And I believe it religiously.
JUST BELIEVE IN XTIANITY AND DONT BEAT YOURSELF UP OVER THOSE LITTLE NAGGING QUESTIONS!
If you go to the Moody Bible study than just accept what they say and move on.
It will be too hard to give up Xtianity all together and become an atheist.
Plus imagine what all your friends will say! All of them will shun you or worse - call you being led by demins!
Do you really want to go through that?
I did.
When I deconverted from Xtianity I lost my fiancee, my best friend and countless other opportunities to "fit in" with a Godly crowd.
The god of the OT may seem to delegaTe some "tough Love" but it is just that.
Love.
His genocide of the Amelekite infants, OK of the rape of the women from Shiloh, kill all Gays, etc, etc.... ARE ALL JUST DEMONSTRATING THAT THE GOD OF THE BIBLE HATES SIN AND WANTS TO SHOW US THE TRUE WAY OF LIFE THORUGH "TOUGH LOVE".
Go back to Church and stop this madness of questionaing. If you have a wife and kids it is not healthy for them either.
Just Believe in Biblegod and get over it!
Jesus really does Love you and wants to show you His "tough Love" by what He has done in the OT and when He will cast all non believers in Hell forever and ever.
IT IS TOUGH LOVE!!!!!!
JUST BELIEVE IN XTIANITY AND DONT BEAT YOURSELF UP OVER THOSE LITTLE NAGGING QUESTIONS!
If you go to the Moody Bible study than just accept what they say and move on.
It will be too hard to give up Xtianity all together and become an atheist.
Plus imagine what all your friends will say! All of them will shun you or worse - call you being led by demins!
Do you really want to go through that?
I did.
When I deconverted from Xtianity I lost my fiancee, my best friend and countless other opportunities to "fit in" with a Godly crowd.
The god of the OT may seem to delegaTe some "tough Love" but it is just that.
Love.
His genocide of the Amelekite infants, OK of the rape of the women from Shiloh, kill all Gays, etc, etc.... ARE ALL JUST DEMONSTRATING THAT THE GOD OF THE BIBLE HATES SIN AND WANTS TO SHOW US THE TRUE WAY OF LIFE THORUGH "TOUGH LOVE".
Go back to Church and stop this madness of questionaing. If you have a wife and kids it is not healthy for them either.
Just Believe in Biblegod and get over it!
Jesus really does Love you and wants to show you His "tough Love" by what He has done in the OT and when He will cast all non believers in Hell forever and ever.
IT IS TOUGH LOVE!!!!!!
GET BACK TO CHURCH AND STOP ALL THESE QUESTIONS!
IT IS MAKING JESUS HAVE HURT FEELINGS AFTER HE TOOK A SPEAR IN THE SIDE FOR YOU!
STOP IT. STOP IT. STOP IT!
YOU ARE IN A POSITION TO DO SO MUCH GOOD FOR THE WORLD THROUGH MODDY AND THE BIBLE BELIEF OF THE SOUTH!
Dont mess up like me and deconvert and be lost forever for I have done the unpardonable sin and blasphemed the Holy Ghost.
There is no hope for me but Jesus still Loves and wants you in His kingdom!
Pray pray pray for forgiveness for your unbelief and be afraid for the future that you did not anger Biblegod enough to cast you from His Sight forever!
Work out your Salvation with "Fear and Trembling".
I am lost and dont wish that on anybody......
I have become an atheist and regret it! I really do! If only I would have listened to that still small voice in my head telling me just to Believe and to stop my backsliding........
Atheism and atheists are going to Hell for SURE!
Steve,
Reading Somasight's comments are truly enlightening. His brand of sarcasm truly underscores every reason why you should run, not walk, away from Christianity.
His call to "Just believe without questioning," and to "Work out your salvation in fear and trembling," and that "God's genocide of the Amelkite infants is just demonstrating his love for us" are just hilarious.
Despite the fact that Somasight is poking fun at fundamentalist Christians, there are lots of people who truly think like that.
Atheism is one of the best things that has ever happened to me. It's wonderful to lead a life based on logic and reason and to have beliefs based on solid evidence.
What I was trying to say is that any time I say that I know something I can't possibly know even if it has been "proven"(Moores law for instance)-I am the one who is full of shit because I have stated something that is impossible to "know". If I say that I believe this or that then I have spoken truth. How many times have laws such as Moores law been disproven or at least been proven to be a little less than accurate years after it was an established fact? That is my point. The reason I use Moores law is because from what I have read online and heard on the news is that soon IBM will break Moores Law(or at least bend it horribly) with the new chip technology that they have found a way to make. How many times in the past have facts that our science have proven irrefutably years later have been disproven? Just because our current science has "proven" something doesn't mean that tommorows science won't disprove it due to a shift in paradigm of reality(and the old "proof" was shown to be inaccurate merely because we didn't have the whole picture to begin with). That is my point. That is why I say that saying something is irrefutably true just because our current scientific laws say it is is bullshit. Am I putting science or reason down? Hell no, I rely on them all the time but I still say I believe, I don't KNOW. If I say I KNOW when in reality I only believe, I am the one who is full of shit. If something has been proven to be by it's chemical make up and by the way photons hit it the color white(like this computer I type this on), yet someone else wants to call it yellow, does that make him wrong in calling it yellow? Nope, because me calling it white is merely a point of view, a belief, and a label. You get offended by me saying that you are full of shit but I am trying to say that EVERYONE is full of shit because they think they know everything(including myself here but beginning to accept the fact that I don't know everything). Just the fact that you are getting offended(just like Christians get offended when someone says something they don't agree with) should tell you something. I don't get offended when you tell me that I don't know what I am talking about because I don't know what I am talking about because it is all beliefs.....that makes me free from MY dogmatic views and therefore makes me truly non-religious....at least according to what I believe:) The bottom line is I can say I don't believe in god but even that view is just that, it doesn't exhist and is a product of my nervous system and brain....if I say there is a god or there isn't a god then both viewpoints are wrong because either veiw point cannot be proven and are both biased. The only way that there cannot be a god is for a persons conciousness to cease to exhist because all gods are products of the brain and nervous system which is why I can't say that there is no god and I can't say that there is a god.....if a person says that there is a god then it is REAL to them, if you say that there is no god then that is REAL to you. god exhisting or not exhisting is all in a persons head.....the only way I could truly prove or disprove the exhistence of god is if I could end my conciousness and actually stand outside of myself without my consiousness and make observations and unless someone knows how to do this then I guess I am shit out of luck(lol)....so don't get so bent out of shape when someone disagrees with you because that allows them to manipulate and control you....just something to think about.
antiChristian....
all I try to do is to get people to see that whatever it is that they believe is just that....beliefs. If I hear something be it a scientific fact, gossip, opinions, religious doctrine, psychology, love, peace, etc etc, I develop a conception in my HEAD about what I heard IE-my version of what I heard, and this becomes my viewpoint and is my belief. A scientific fact that I believe in is MY BRAINS CONCEPTION OF THAT FACT and therefore is MY BELIEF and therefore is not a TRUTH but a BELIEF...
Wiseman27,
I think it's important to make a distinction between scientific findings and the scientific method.
The scientific method is based on hypothesis testing, evidence, and the formulation of a theory, and if the theory seems secure, we call it a law.
These theories and laws - scientific findings - are the best we have for the information at the given time, but they are always open to scrutiny. If these findings are retested and shown to have different results, then the findings have to be changed, such as the case of Moore's law that you mentioned.
The history of science is filled with such revisions. Newton's Laws of Motion, for example, were considered all that was necessary to describe motion for hundreds of years until the early 20th century when scientists began doing experiments with very small, very fast particles. A new set of laws had to be derived for the information we received under these conditions - Quantum Mechanics.
The beauty of science is that it is honest. It self-corrects when it is found to be wrong.
Scientific findings may be limited in the duration of their validity, but the scientific method isn't.
Wiseman27,
You're right. What we believe is just that - beliefs, and all beliefs should come under scrutiny.
However, we do need to get beyond the "I think, therefore I am" mentality. That is, there are beliefs worthy of belief, and there are those that aren't. The key is choosing the right criteria for forming those beliefs.
The Christians choose The Bible and their tradition as their criteria. I choose skepticism, rational thinking, and the scientific method, which I think is infinitely more accurate. But there are lots of people who disagree with me.
Perhaps choosing a criteria for developing beliefs boils down to mere personal aesthetics, eh?
AntiXian......there are beliefs worthy of belief, and there are those that aren't. The key is choosing the right criteria for forming those beliefs.
Totally, 100% agreed.
AntiXian...... the unswerving faith in nature, science, reason, logic, and evidence-based beliefs is most certainly dogma, very good dogma, but dogma nonetheless.
And I believe it religiously.
I'd like to respectfully point out that I, personally, must take certain terminology out of its religious context, before I can fully agree with the above, with the exception of, "I believe it religiously", which is a personal choice.
About that choice---I, too, believe in "science", "logic", etc., and I trust them because of their self-correctiveness and objectiveness. However, I don't have, or need, "faith", in order to believe in said concepts. Furthermore, said self-correctiveness hardly makes the scientific method an "authority" on "truth", simply put, because science changes its mind, where as, "dogmatic" beliefs do not.
"I have experienced God, or so I think. I have cried in worship, I have spoken in new tongues. I have begun to doubt all of these experiences and am wondering if they were all just emotion. "
Yes, so did I. But the power of suggestion is huge. Our brain is capable of reproducing any emotion or reaction we ask it to experience.
If you were to read books on mind-body connection and the placebo effect, you would understand how easily we can "experience god" and other fallacies.
Thank you for sharing your story.
Steve,
If you are really seeking, the book Who Wrote the Bible should be a great resource for you.
The book is written by a non-Christian scholar who studies manuscripts and dates text based on the evolution of the language therein. It is a great read for those us who were Bible worshipers.
DONT LISTEN TO THESE DOUBTERS! THEY ARE BEING LED BY SATAN TO DECIEVE YOU AND CAUSE YOU TO "FALL AWAY".
JUST PRAY TO JESUS THAT YOUR DOUBTS WILL NOT CAUSE YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM TO SUFFER AND YOU WILL BE OK!
DONT DONT DONT BE AN ATHEIST LIKE ME AND LISTEN TO ALL THOSE SCIENTISTS THAT SPOUT STUFF FOR A HIDDEN AGENDA! I WISH I COULD TURN FROM BEIN AN ATHEIST BUT UNFORTUNATELY I COMITTED THE "UNFORGIVABLE SIN" ONE DAY WHEN I SAID THAT IT WAS TROUBLING THAT PEOPLE BELIEVE IN AN ALL MALE DEITY AND THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS NOT A MAN!
MEN ARE THE TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN AND IF IT WAS NOT FOR EVE AND HER WILES WE WOULD NOT BE IN THE SITUATION US MANS ARE TODAY!
I MEAN COME ON..... WHO IN THIER RIGHT MIND THINKS THAT THE EARTH IS 4.5 BILLION YEARS AGO AND WE SLOWLY EVOLVED FROM A SIMPLE ONE CELLED ORGANISM TO BECOME HUMANS THROUGH A PROCESS OF MUTATIONS AND NATURAL SELECTION? PLUS WHO REALLY THINKS THAT WE ARE NOT THE "KING OF THE HILL" AND THAT ANIMALS ARE JUST AS IMPORATANT AS US?
I MEAN COME ON!
THIS IS SO SAD TO READ ABOUT THE YOUNG MINDS OF AMERICA BEING POISONED BY THE VENOM OF MODERN DAY SCIENTIFIC REASONING AND THE TESTING OF HYPOTHESIS FOR EVIDENCE INSTEAD OF BELIEF WITH NO PROOF WHATSOEVER!
EVER HEAR OF FAITH CAUSE I HAVE!
ITS IN THE BIBLE BABY!
DONT LISTEN TO THESE DOUBTERS! THEY ARE BEING LED BY SATAN TO DECIEVE YOU AND CAUSE YOU TO "FALL AWAY".
JUST PRAY TO JESUS THAT YOUR DOUBTS WILL NOT CAUSE YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM TO SUFFER AND YOU WILL BE OK!
DONT DONT DONT BE AN ATHEIST LIKE ME AND LISTEN TO ALL THOSE SCIENTISTS THAT SPOUT STUFF FOR A HIDDEN AGENDA! I WISH I COULD TURN FROM BEIN AN ATHEIST BUT UNFORTUNATELY I COMITTED THE "UNFORGIVABLE SIN" ONE DAY WHEN I SAID THAT IT WAS TROUBLING THAT PEOPLE BELIEVE IN AN ALL MALE DEITY AND THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS NOT A MAN!
MEN ARE THE TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN AND IF IT WAS NOT FOR EVE AND HER WILES WE WOULD NOT BE IN THE SITUATION US MANS ARE TODAY!
I MEAN COME ON..... WHO IN THIER RIGHT MIND THINKS THAT THE EARTH IS 4.5 BILLION YEARS AGO AND WE SLOWLY EVOLVED FROM A SIMPLE ONE CELLED ORGANISM TO BECOME HUMANS THROUGH A PROCESS OF MUTATIONS AND NATURAL SELECTION? PLUS WHO REALLY THINKS THAT WE ARE NOT THE "KING OF THE HILL" AND THAT ANIMALS ARE JUST AS IMPORATANT AS US?
I MEAN COME ON!
THIS IS SO SAD TO READ ABOUT THE YOUNG MINDS OF AMERICA BEING POISONED BY THE VENOM OF MODERN DAY SCIENTIFIC REASONING AND THE TESTING OF HYPOTHESIS FOR EVIDENCE INSTEAD OF BELIEF WITH NO PROOF WHATSOEVER!
EVER HEAR OF FAITH CAUSE I HAVE!
ITS IN THE BIBLE BABY!
Steve wrote {Why would anyone believe in something they can't see or have at least not experienced.}
Steve, God still testifies today as He did 2000 years ago, by using the supernatural to put His stamp of authenticity. We all know that Jesus asked everyone not to believe Him because of what He says but because what He says is backed up by what He does....the miracles.
If you're looking for God's way of testifying to the Truth, you can find it in modern day miracles like:
1917: Fatima miracle of the sun. 70,000 people converged to a remote area to witness a ten minute miracle. Believers and atheists alike witnessed and it was all documented in multiple newspapers. Do your research, read the witness accounts, they are credible witnesses with no ulterior motives other that hoping that you hear the truth. This miracle was prophesied by the young children that were permitted to have visions of Jesus' earthly mother, Mary.
Fatima, True Story by Father John de Marchi:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/tsfatima.htm
Fatima: http://www.fatima.org/
1961-1965: Children witnessing again to visions of Jesus' mother. Read the witness account, see the videos, and recognize the healthy fruits of these supernatural gifts that simply ask everyone to be good...to reject sin.
http://www.garabandalonline.com/dvd1_Intro.htm
http://www.stjosephpublications.com/book5.htm
http://www.garabandal.us/
Our God is not complicated, He is simply doing all He can within the constraints that He's imposed on himself to tell us the truth. Why the constraints? Why not just intervene once and for all with an undeniable miracle? Well, I think that He does give us the undeniable miracles (how about the Resurrection) but for those that are given such gifts and that reject them, their sins are not forgivable. I think He reveals Himself as He does to keep everyone's free will open to reject Him, as we humans asked when we rejected the Garden of Eden.
In these desperate times, when a general apostasy is essentially invading nearly everyone’s home and family, Jesus has given yet another gift. Few today believe this spiritual manifestation but if you’re ever bless to believe, you will receive special graces for your receptive heart. Since 1986 Jesus has been in communication with a person named Vassula Ryden. Her spiritual “dictations” are done in a bizarre way where her hand is essentially taken hold of by God. If you were to see her personal written script and the text written by divine intervention, it’s evident that it is a different source (you should be able to see this on the Web site). This isn’t such a convincing point as much as the fact that this person was not involved in the Church in any way until these spiritual gifts began in 1986. Despite her completely non-theological background, she’s written volumes of text, which is dialogue with Jesus that does not conflict with Christian doctrine.
You can see the first message from 1986 that begins her journey of learning true Wisdom. A journey that is available to all of us that desire it.
http://www.tlig.org/print/en/messages/1/
I hope that 2 Peter 2:20-22 never happens to you….
20 For if they{ExChristians}, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their {ExChristians} last condition is worse than their first.
21 For it would have been better for them {ExChristians} not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them {ExChristians}.
22 What is expressed in the true proverb has happened to them {ExChristians}, "The dog returns to its own vomit," and "A bathed sow returns to wallowing in the mire."
May God bless you with renewed faith. My family will pray for you.
Get back under your bridge ya' troll.
Lady of Fatima was not a miracle
Perhaps OTC (marc) has forgotten the lessons he was already taught awhile back on this site.
It's just like a xtian, to have a very short memory, where proof against their god being is concerned.
Right OTC?
Here are the contents of two previous post made on the Fatima subject.
The first was from me and the second one from "erie"
Post #1:
There seems to be quite a bit of controversy over this Fatima apparition that three children say they saw. This article on the subject sites some of the controversy..... http://www.portcult.com/FAT.03.VISIONS.02.htm
Here are some snippets of the article that I found quite interesting:
"Jacinta declares that Our Lady's dress goes down only to her knees. Our Lady can only appear dressed, obviously, in the most decent and modest way. The dress would have to come down to her feet. Any other way constitutes the most serious obstacle to the supernaturalism of the apparition and makes us think that it is a mystification prepared by the Spirit of Darkness"
So here we have a CHILD's vision of this lady and the child isn't concerned about how modest her vision lady would have been dressed.
For those that believed her dress was too short, they believed this:
"Obviously a Virgin Mary dressed in such a scandalous way could not have been the Mother of God but possibly a vision sent by Satan himself. The image of the Virgin had to be cleaned up to go along with orthodoxy."
Whether this child Jacinta believed the apparition was real or whether she felt the urge to fabricate such a supernatural sighting, it's obvious Jacinta couldn't foresee that adults would have a problem with this special lady wearing a "too short dress". After all, in those days it wasn't wrong for young girls to wear short dresses, so to this naive child, why would there be a problem with a 'lady' also wearing such a short dress.
The article then informs us of the later fate of these three children:
"Today few people know about this detail, just as few know how Lúcia was practically kidnapped at the age of 14 by the Church hierarchy and held incommunicado in convents for the rest of her life, or that Francisco and Jacinta tortured themselves in the name of religion before they finally died."
Regardless of whether one wishes to believe that the church was trying to protect Lucia by locking her away, or if one believes the church thought Satan was playing a cruel trick on this child's young mind, one is left with an obvious question.
If one desires to believe that these children were in direct contact with this special biblical lady, then this lady must have seen these children as special to her cause.
Can someone then explain to me why she then failed to "look after" these children's futures?
Isn't it obvious here that this supernatural sighting is no different than all the rest we hear about, even these days, which are either products of mental delusion or purposeful fabricated lies...........
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Post #2:
erie wrote:
Ah yes, the “miracle of our lady of Fatima,” where, on October 13, 1917, the "sun danced and bobbed in the sky" and the Virgin Mary appeared to reveal a three-part revelation about upcoming religious and political matters of the 20th century (including a mass conversion to Catholicism in Russia, for which we’re all waiting 100 years later).
Astronomers know that the sun did absolutely nothing out of the ordinary on that date. But a bunch of superstitious peasants, led on by the claims of hysterical children (cf. the Salem witchcraft trials of 1692) did they stared at the sun for hours, which could well explain why some (by no means all) of them saw bright colors, visions of Mary (in some, but not all, of which she was dressed in clothing contemporary to the early 20th century), and other optical hallucinations.
Long before the Virgin supposedly spoke to her, fantasy-proned Lucia, the only one of the three children to survive into adulthood, reportedly had worried her family with tales of imaginary playmates. Among other things that Lucia later “revealed” as resulting from her 1917 visions was the Virgin Mary’s prophecy that the other children accompanying her in her claims would be called to heaven “soon.” (They both succumbed to flu in 1919.) Very telling that Lucia who grew up to become a nun (obviously no pro-catholic bias there) revealed this death prophecy only some 30 years after the fact!
In other words, the miracle of Fatima was bunk then and remains bunk now. So, Marc, I think it’s a good idea for you to take your heels as well as your “heals” to some site where you may find a more gullible audience. Ex-christians have already heard it all and we’re not going to be fooled by religious charlatans and hysterics again.
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ATF (Who wonders why miracle 'mary' is never seen over a major city in the USA?)
Obnoxious Trolling Christer: "God still testifies today as He did 2000 years ago, by using the supernatural..."
'Supernatural' is not proven to exist. Neither is your god. Therefore, this alleged 'testimony' will be considered bogus until acceptable evidence is received and analyzed.
"I think He reveals Himself as He does to keep everyone's free will open to reject Him..."
...Except when he tampers with free will, as in the case of Pharaoh.
"Since 1986 Jesus has been in communication with a person named Vassula Ryden..."
How do you know it's 'Jesus' and not a group of teenage space aliens from Cepheus or Aldebaran?
"I hope that 2 Peter 2:20-22 never happens to you..."
It won't, because the Bible is rubbish.
"My family will pray for you."
Speak for yourself. For all we know, your family deeply resents all the time you spend here.
"Said: 'Can someone then explain to me why she (Mary) then failed to "look after" these children's futures?' She did, they're in heaven."
Prove that 'heaven' exists. I, personally, think those children are dead and gone and insentient in their graves.
"You really think that mere children would pass on water and food just because of their imaginations..."
First of all, it is highly condescending to refer to the future of humanity as "mere" children.
Secondly, those who have been brainwashed into believing harmful nonsense will occasionally do things that are extremely harmful to their mental and physical health.
Especially if some ignorant, deluded adult had previously scared those kids into believing in Hell. That is child abuse, no ifs, ands or buts about it.
"Many of you will one day repent and return to your Father."
OTC, you arrogant prick... You've really done it this time. Don't you fucking dare compare your murderous imaginary friend to one of the finest men I've ever known.
No apology will be accepted. May your entire family turn apostate, and may reality finally beat some sense into you.
Astreja quoted resident troll, OTC (marc):
"Since 1986 Jesus has been in communication with a person named Vassula Ryden..."
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Astreja,
Well I wasn't really curious about Vassula Ryden, until now, so I did some checking on her.
Some excerpts from http://www.catholicplanet.com/apparitions/false13.htm
I bet most of you out there, had no idea that Jesus is married to this woman?
What's that? .... You doubt what I'm saying?
Well OTC's Vassula claims to have married Jesus, with rings given supernaturally
Here is what god told Vassula in one her communications with god.
“My bride, My wretched bride why are you fearing Me? grieve Me not and approach Me, I love you, lean on Me and remember, I it is who sanctified our marriage, do not worry, it is I Jesus, leave your fears and approach Me, I felt your hand do not be; be intimate with Me, just like you are, come, give Me your hand and I will keep it in Mine.”
The author of this article (Ronald L. Conte Jr.) remarks on this marriage with:
"Although she claims to be married to Jesus, she refers to him as 'Father' and he supposedly calls her 'daughter.' "
Vassula even claims that one message predicted the felling of the World Trade Towers on September 11, 2001
Oh, but are her prophecy's any better in detail, than say the famous Nostradamus?
Let's look and see:
September 11, 1991: “the earth will shiver and shake - and every evil built into Towers will collapse into a heap of rubble and be buried in the dust of sin! above, the Heavens will shake and the foundations of the earth will rock! pray that the Father's Hand will not come down in winter; the islands, the sea and the continents will be visited by Me unexpectedly, with thunder and by Flame....”
Well, I guess her secret god information was a bit, OFF.
Perhaps she thought the terrorist had planned on using H-Bombs to try and achieve this destruction she speaks of here.
Super H-Bomb or not, I doubt the heavens would shake and the foundations of the earth would rock.
As the article points out, an earthquake would have been far more fitting a fate for the towers than some jet planes flying into them, according to Vassula's inside-god-source.
Of course, it would have been helpful if this god had chosen to mention it would be TWIN towers and something like "giants birds" would fly into them etc..
I mean, how hard is it for this god to convey a clear message to someone he is in direct contact with?
In Conclusion Ronald L. Conte Jr. says:
"The claimed private revelation to Vassula Ryden is very clearly and thoroughly shown, by the above examples to be false. Such messages cannot come from God or from Heaven. They have all the characteristics of false private revelation, and they do not resemble those true private revelations accepted by the Church. "
Sorry OTC, but your beloved modern day prophet screwed this scam of her's up, and badly to.
Their are no humans that are able to see the future, no prophets with supernatural powers or in contact with any supernatural gods, including your bible god OTC.
All these modern day soothsayers are out for fame and money and looking for suckers like you OTC, to make their living off of.
They all make vague predictions and then wait until some event SEEMS to fit their prediction, or, they make numerous detailed predictions in hopes that a single one will come true that they can they point to and then claim to have special powers.
Heck, I could easily do the same thing, that is, until someone figured the scam out.
OTC, I would advise you to find some new prophets to worship, because so far, your track record is quite dismal in what you've shown to all of us here.
Astreja,
Perhaps OTC has some better evidence of his god, that doesn't fall to pieces upon closer inspection?
Seems every miracle he offers for god-proof, like Fatima and now this Vassula woman, require plenty of blind SUCKER faith to believe in, because they fail to prove themselves otherwise.
ATF (Who wonders if OTC wears a wig, because he sure has "flipped his wig" this time)
ATF, an interesting "what-if" just occurred to Me. Which path would OTC choose if Pope Benny said to the faithful, "Denounce Vassula or be excommunicated"? (And what kind of paper towels are best for wiping up brainplosions?)
People have their own internal and often unconscious reasons for believing or not believing something.
My experiences predispose Me to skepticism, iconoclasm and rejection of 'Because I say so' authority.
OTC, on the other hand, seems predisposed to public self-flagellation, overweening concern for the hypothetical fate of people who don't think exactly like him, and goddess-worship lite. (Yes, OTC, 'Mary' is actually a Christianized version of the ancient mother-goddess. Oh, and the Jesus-fish is her hoo-hoo. Deal with it.)
Premature to say "Ne'er the twain shall meet", but I'm not holding My breath...
DONT LISTEN TO THESE DOUBTERS! THEY ARE BEING LED BY SATAN TO DECIEVE YOU AND CAUSE YOU TO "FALL AWAY".
JUST PRAY TO JESUS THAT YOUR DOUBTS WILL NOT CAUSE YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM TO SUFFER AND YOU WILL BE OK!
DONT DONT DONT BE AN ATHEIST LIKE ME AND LISTEN TO ALL THOSE SCIENTISTS THAT SPOUT STUFF FOR A HIDDEN AGENDA! I WISH I COULD TURN FROM BEIN AN ATHEIST BUT UNFORTUNATELY I COMITTED THE "UNFORGIVABLE SIN" ONE DAY WHEN I SAID THAT IT WAS TROUBLING THAT PEOPLE BELIEVE IN AN ALL MALE DEITY AND THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS NOT A MAN!
MEN ARE THE TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN AND IF IT WAS NOT FOR EVE AND HER WILES WE WOULD NOT BE IN THE SITUATION US MANS ARE TODAY!
I MEAN COME ON..... WHO IN THIER RIGHT MIND THINKS THAT THE EARTH IS 4.5 BILLION YEARS AGO AND WE SLOWLY EVOLVED FROM A SIMPLE ONE CELLED ORGANISM TO BECOME HUMANS THROUGH A PROCESS OF MUTATIONS AND NATURAL SELECTION? PLUS WHO REALLY THINKS THAT WE ARE NOT THE "KING OF THE HILL" AND THAT ANIMALS ARE JUST AS IMPORATANT AS US?
I MEAN COME ON!
THIS IS SO SAD TO READ ABOUT THE YOUNG MINDS OF AMERICA BEING POISONED BY THE VENOM OF MODERN DAY SCIENTIFIC REASONING AND THE TESTING OF HYPOTHESIS FOR EVIDENCE INSTEAD OF BELIEF WITH NO PROOF WHATSOEVER!
EVER HEAR OF FAITH CAUSE I HAVE!
ITS IN THE BIBLE BABY!
OTC IS JUST TRYING TI GET THE TRUTH IN YOUR HEADS!
FATIMA IS REAL AND JESUS LOVES ALL OF YOU GUYS!
ASK YOUR QUESTION ON THIS CHRISTIAN FORUM BOARD! NOT AN ATHEIST ONE!
ATHEISTS ARE THE SO IGNORANT ABOUT THE BIBLE AND YOU SHOULD ASK YOUR LOCAL PASTOR ABOUT YOUR QUESTIONS!
OR POST HERE.......
http://www.christianforums.net/index.php
FATIMA IS TRUTH!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Fatima
Please stop engaging the insane troll.
Steve, other's have done a good job of supporting you here, and so I won't repeat much of the excellent advice they have given. I just want to welcome you to this excellent site. I'm not a regular poster, but I pop in and out and post occasionally. This site has meant a lot to me and gave me a lot of support as I was first questioning.
Another site I found useful was debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com.
Stick around and keep learning to think.
WM,
At first I thought Somasight, because of his hyperbolism, was engaging in sarcasm, but he seems very persistent. Do you think he's for real?
Sorry about the confusion.
I was referencing OTC, who's most recent post has been deleted.
The poor bugger (OTC) is crazy.
WM,
I'll say! OTC's way off the deep end, but what do you make of Somasight? I was laughing with him at first, but he keeps coming on with it.
I don't know what to make of Soma's posts.
Keep going! Dont look back. You hav finally reached the place where you are realizing what you believed IS NOT true. What is true is that you have the ability to step oustide the prison that is your religion and find out that there are NO monster lurking as you were always taught. You'll find confidence and better friends than you ever had in you god buddies. This is your only life, make the most of it! Enjoy the beauty and love people despite their shortcomings. You will be so much happier! Good Luck to you!
antiChristian,
I'm not disagreeing with you because there has to be a place where any of us draws a line(I could go on and on in Eastern thought and get so deep that I get a headache which wouldn't help me to live my life), I like you also put my faith in facts that have been proven over and over and over again. I guess my point is that if I am not attached to something being totally true and leave the possibility open for the fact to be not true due to further evidence, then I won't suffer when it gets dis-proven. That was really my point.....so I'm not saying that your wrong for your view point, it's just that people never stop and think about the fact that everything in our brain is a virtual model of reality and therefore doesn't exhist(here I go again lol). It's like asking the question "well why do I like cake over pie?" or "why do I like racing games over football games?" and then coming up with the answer that either like or dislike is empty of all meaning(aside from feelings which are nothing more than chemicals in my body/brain). So basically finding that my likes and dislikes, beliefs, etc are nothing but thoughts in my head that are empty of all meaning. Maybe that seems pesimistic, but only by realizing that have I found what works to get those "meaningless" wants fulfilled....have a nice day:)
Wiseman27, to AntiXian......I'm not saying that [you're] wrong for your view point, it's just that people never stop and think about the fact that everything in our brain is a virtual model of reality and therefore doesn't [exist]
Beggin' your pardon, but what you seem to be describing is known as solipsism, which is a skeptical hypothesis that essentially argues that the external universe may not exist. Well, 'not true. Existence exists, and hence, there is a mind-independent reality. And yes, this reality can be known.
Wiseman27...So basically finding that my likes and dislikes, beliefs, etc are nothing but thoughts in my head that are empty of all meaning.
Again....'have to disagree. Here, you are essentially trying to argue that because the parts that make up the whole of our "thoughts"..i.e.. the "chemicals", and cells, etc., are not sentient, individually, that the sum of these parts are "therefore" incapable of having a sentient, "meaning"-deriving end. Although you haven't defined "meaning", still, the crux of this argument is known as the fallacy of composition.
Hi, Steve! I think I can relate to what you are going through. I've been struggling with my Christian faith for awhile now also, but I, too, don't want to leave it and become an ex-Christian. I've been questioning the inerrency of the Bible, disagreeing with some of the biblical teachings that I am taught to believe, dealing with blind and ignorant Christians who won't listen to reason, fighting for control over my own body (see the Blog on masturbation), and trying to be myself, think for myself, and do my own thing without shame, guilt, or fear of condemnation and having to be something I'm not. I think the reason we don't want to leave our Christian faith is because we have been conditioned by the church to believe that we will go to Hell if we do. It makes it hard for us to enjoy the freedom of just being ourselves, doesn't it?
Hi steve, I am a practicing believer and understand a little where you are coming from but ive never been to Bible college. I didnt go tochurch for many years because generally but not all the people discouraged me in every way possible even tho they didnt mean it. I realise now the problem was works religeon only today its not about circumcision or the law of moses but all the self centred claptrap that goes with a lot of denominations. I dont speak in tongues and never wanted to, ive never had the sort of religeious experiences which they say you are supposed to but i have repented because one day i realised that i really was a degenerate sinner and that God really did exist and had done a great thing for me so I was grateful. God allowed me to see myself as He saw me. I think that is what counts more than the man made stuff ! Also a lot of these people dont believe the Bible anyway ! I do and it was on the basics like the creation and I found the sites which i am sure you know about a great help like AIG etc.
In my family we majored on the creation as the foundation of faith which i dont see any other christians doing. I cant stand the idea of the Gospel being some kind of a lifestyle choice or Jesus being a helpmate. I smoke (just a roll up in the evenings) like a glass of wine (but i would never be drunk ) I am scruffy, and quite ungentle at times but i dont mean to be and some christians dont like me because im not nice but im not hiding anything, i listen to the Gospel hours every day in my workshop and pray and read the Bible every day but i know my God and do His will and keep the commandments - my neighbours know I am a literal Bible believer I dont reject any of it, I am also what they call a Calvinist, when i tell people about the Gospel they just dont care but i dont worry, their funeral. I think being a (real) christian is pretty neat, I think the Bible really holds together in its own right never mind the amazing evidence of the creation. I wont deal with works christians anymore at all, it a Gospel of Grace (not lewdness)they spoil it with their own unscriptural ideas like having to speak in tongues etc - just silly - these ideas are apostate in my view, they might even be unsaved for all their claims. and those songs ! awful selfcentred worldy garbage, not honoring to God oh how excruciating - i will walk out now and thats if im in a good mood. Rock n roll on the pulpit - just pathetic and the chorus's just when you think they have finished repeating themselves they go and do it all oover again just cos no ones got the werewithall to say hey - this is dumb and if an unconverted person came in now they would just get out quick as they could, manipulative too - al the best - be yourself warts and all !
Hey, Charles, you suggested that a person must "assume" that reality is an amalgamation of interconnected matter :-)
If you have some time, take a trip to a psychotherapists office; when they ask you what you want to talk about, I have a great idea.
Tell them, you believe "your" reality, to be fragmented, and "disconnected"... tell them that your body doesn't undergo change, or that you don't see the inert matter of oxygen you inhale as being "part" of your body... that the "oxygen" has its own little existence, even though it becomes chemically bonded to your changing human body via the respiratory system.
Let us know what kind of meds they give you for your schizophrenia and extreme sense of "dissociation" and projected "compart-mental-ization" ;-)
By the way, if you want to take this discussion elsewhere, here is a nice article, that describes you well "Okay, I Have No Idea"... just look for the post button, I'll respond if you can post, okay :-)
http://exchristian.net/letters/2004/03/okay-i-have-no-idea.html
And, if you want, you can use the alias "Truth In Christ"... it would appear to fit your online personality to a tee - and a little nostalgia never hurts, right.
Charles,
You said you "roll up" in the evenings. What do you smoke, if I may ask?
Charles is a troll.
His future posts will be deleted.
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