Seeking a spiritual foundation
From Kevin
I left Christianity approximately a year ago. I came to Christianity after having a conversion experience that was very powerful when I was 18. I initially participated in a Pentecostal church and then ended up leading an emergent church. I was a Christian for 16 years and I was the main leader of a church when I left. At the time of my de-conversion I could no longer intellectually sustain many of the core assertions of Christianity. I have had numerous supernatural type experiences in my life and as a Christian I found the presence of the Holy Spirit very powerful and reassuring.
Since I have left the church I have sought for a suitable spiritual foundation. I have found perennial philosophy very appealing intellectually. However, I have encountered nothing that seems to compare to the power, love and insight that I experienced as a Christian (experiencing the Holy Spirit).
I still can't hold up the core theological components of Christianity. However, due to the spiritual experiences I had as a Christian I am still gripped regularly by the possibility that there may be something more to it (a thought that leads me to significant distress because I reject Christianity intellectually though seem to embrace it spiritually).
I thought that the power I experienced whilst a Christian could be experienced in similar ways through meditation or something, but it doesn't seem to be so; I am left feeling spiritually empty and confused spiritually.
Do you know of others who have gone through similar de-conversion experiences? Is there information you could provide that could assist me? What is your opinion?
I would like assistance, please.
I left Christianity approximately a year ago. I came to Christianity after having a conversion experience that was very powerful when I was 18. I initially participated in a Pentecostal church and then ended up leading an emergent church. I was a Christian for 16 years and I was the main leader of a church when I left. At the time of my de-conversion I could no longer intellectually sustain many of the core assertions of Christianity. I have had numerous supernatural type experiences in my life and as a Christian I found the presence of the Holy Spirit very powerful and reassuring.
Since I have left the church I have sought for a suitable spiritual foundation. I have found perennial philosophy very appealing intellectually. However, I have encountered nothing that seems to compare to the power, love and insight that I experienced as a Christian (experiencing the Holy Spirit).
I still can't hold up the core theological components of Christianity. However, due to the spiritual experiences I had as a Christian I am still gripped regularly by the possibility that there may be something more to it (a thought that leads me to significant distress because I reject Christianity intellectually though seem to embrace it spiritually).
I thought that the power I experienced whilst a Christian could be experienced in similar ways through meditation or something, but it doesn't seem to be so; I am left feeling spiritually empty and confused spiritually.
Do you know of others who have gone through similar de-conversion experiences? Is there information you could provide that could assist me? What is your opinion?
I would like assistance, please.
Comments
If you would care to write to me on eurekaplato@yahoo.co.uk we may be able to share some thoughts. Just to start with ... think about conditioning as Ivan Pavlov introduced the concept.
Regards
Paul Benedict
Paul Benedict
Those dependent on an imaginary god to love them and give them power and love and a sense of balance and well being often fail to mature emotionally. This is true of most christians. The lie is that there must be some supernatural power to get us through emotionally. There is no such power. But litttle by little you will find strength by learning to supply yourself with the strength that you used to think came from god.
When I first quit drinking was when I got sucked into fundamentalism. It seems that my brain wanted the "high" that I had lost when I quit doing drugs. Jesus and his Holy Spirit became my 'drug of choice'.
I've kick the 'holy habit', but still have compulsive tendencies.
I still smoke and drink way too much coffee. I'm also "addicted" to learning and reading. I get a real buzz from gaining knowledge.
I suspect that some people have an abnormal (psychological) requirement that draws them into extreme activity.
Maybe you could take up a healthier "addiction" i.e. exercise, charity work etc..?
There are a number of issues involved. I think the comparison with drug addiction is very valid. You miss that religion "buzz"...
Like people trying to recover from addiction, you're confronted with a change in your "people, places, and things".
But also, it's very similar to ending a long-term, unhealthy relationship with a spouse.
For 16 years, you had the support and encouragement of the church, but that "love" had a lot of strings attached, you were under their complete control and the deceit was constant.
Now you're alone.
I hope you can soon find another relationship, one that is based on reality, honesty and respect.
The ones in groups are easy - it's a group dynamic. We are "wired" to participate in what's going on around us - it's really very, very hard to stand up and be different, and numerous psychological experiments demonstrate this. People will change their perception of truth or deliberately tell untruths in order to fit into a group. Therefore I view myself as adapting my behaviour, expectations and thought patterns in order to fit into the group's perceptions. And if I did it, I'm sure that most others, if not everyone else there, did it as well.
The ones on your own are much harder. I liken it to something akin to hypnotism. A recent programme on the BBC demonstrated that people with a very small amount of experience of hypnotism can seem to switch on very weird "effects" at will. Similarly, I wanted to believe things, and so quickly became able to switch on my "ability" to "see" and "hear" them. I find it interesting that all of my solo spiritual experiences were affirming, even when I knew I had done things wrong. Basically I "heard" what I wanted to hear.
As to an initial emotional conversion experience, well, I can't help you there, because I didn't have one. I made a decision to become a Christian based on the information I had before me as a very confused 13-year old. The emotional side came a couple of days later, when seeing how other Christians reacted to me as a new convert. I did feel something strongly both when baptised and "baptised in the Spirit", but those go under the "group experiences" heading defined above.
Read on for a resolution of types.
My internal life has been extremely turbulent for over a year due to de-converting and I reached a type of rock bottom over the last few days.
I am unable at this point to ascribe my previous spiritual experiences as simply emotional (as some have described them). I experienced things that are more paranormal than emotional which limits my ability to interpret them in purely psychological terms.
My main sticking point seemed to be that by leaving Christianity I lost a deep spiritual experience. I looked into deism and meditation though the experiences there seemed hollow.
It seemed that it was only through faith in Christ that I attained access to God and experienced him. I had no idea why this was, but it just seemed like if I turned my mind to Christ then spiritual power would begin to flow. The problem was all the rest of the irrational baggage of Christianity.
I now (tentatively) believe I have found an answer to my experiences and questions in eastern religion e.g. gurus etc. I have been toying with Perennial Philosophy and meditation but I have only just encountered the unique role of guru and experienced its power.
I have had a type of reconversion of types to the love and presence of God outside Christianity. It all seems to fit into place; I have a clear philosophy which enables access to higher realms of spirit.
I see Christ as any other advanced guru. The problem of Christianity is its doctrinal absolutisms, historical inaccuracies, legalism and an overemphasis upon Jesus as the only way to God.
It has certainly been an incredible couple of days. I am amazed at how things have come together for me. I am sure that some will be critical of my decision and proclaimed experiences. However perennial philosophy coupled with the role of ascended gurus seem to provide the answers I have been looking for.
Sheesh, I ain't never heard of so many goddamned religions in my life until I joined this site. But anyway, Peace to you, Roger...A/A
Goodnite all, for now.
You say you were experiencing the Holy Spirit when you were a Christian. Isn't it strange that you deconverted despite such experiences?
Mind you, the Holy Spirit is God, in terms of Christian dogma [Trinity doctrine].
So it is hard to understand how a person who has experienced God would detach himself from his God-beliefs.
Unless the experiences you mentioned were not what you think they were.
Kevin, You say you were experiencing the Holy Spirit when you were a Christian. Isn't it strange that you deconverted despite such experiences?
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Telmi,
I also find it quite interesting that one could continue in this god belief, while at the same time dismissing a previous 'path' to that god, that had been determined to be productive towards making contact with said god.
That would imply that if god is real, then any definition/belief for this god would be fine with this god, for keeping in contact with it.
If that is then true, then one can take any path to find god, yet, this same god who is so now easy to find, turns it's back on so many of us.
Kevin,
I think what is really going on is that you needed a certain 'trigger' to ignite specific emotions in you.
This trigger would only respond to your own personal form of 'positive thinking'.
i.e. While you had tried deism and meditation as a trigger, you probably felt skeptical (negative) that they would act as such for you, but once you found a philosophy that you felt held real promise, your own positive thinking brought about the desired trigger results for you.
To put it another way, you basically "talked yourself into it" working.
I'm sure many other paths to god that you felt great confidence in, would have worked equally as well.
The human mind has an amazing ability to discover what makes us feel good and then form a belief system around that discovery. The mind then seeks to reinforce that connection for us.
This is why many believe things like acupuncture and faith healings have an external power to makes us feel good or cure us of our ills.
If you convince yourself that such things can actually work as advertised, then they will bring about emotions that make you feel good when they are performed on you.
In contrast, for those who are very skeptical, such things offer no benefit at all.
I'm quite sure what you found was not a god, but merely a new way to "enter a state of mind" that was formerly brought about by your xtian methods.
Also keep in mind that there are many folks who will claim to exhibit the very same 'feelings' that you derive from your experiences, but they lack a belief in any gods.
That being the case, what exactly would their spiritual experience be connecting to, if not 'your' god?
Their answer would be the spiritual world, which I suppose would consist of former humans who once lived on earth.
They are as sure of their experiences as you now are of your own, the difference being that you FEEL yourself connecting to some god, while they do not.
The litmus test then would be for you to gain some knowledge from this connecting experience to god, that you couldn't have learned by any natural/earthly method.
Will this god reveal something specific to you about your future, or the future of someone else, in enough detail to be sure you didn't just guess at it?
If you can't walk away with such validation from this god connection, then I would suggest that you are fooling yourself about that connection to a god.
ATF (Who thinks any person connecting to any god, would have evidence of something supernatural to show for it)
I de-converted due to no longer being able to hold up core Christian assertions like those in the Nicene Creed; therefore I disqualified myself as a traditional Christian.
In regards to the holy spirit - in the latter part of my Christian life I rejected the idea that God would only be accessible through one religion (as many Theologians do). I believed that God's love went far beyond the walls of the church. However to my dismay I was unable to access God when I left Christianity. The only way I seemed to connect again was when I let my mind focus back on Christ.
I think God is a mystery, I don't pretend to know who or what they are. Though I know there is something (out there or in there) that is loving and transcendent. I think that Christians limit their understanding of God due to their dogmas and parochial account of history.
I don't think I lost my faith in the spiritual I just lost my faith in Christianity and all its baggage.
I don't mind what people choose to believe (as long as they don't use force to indoctrinate others). If people have similar feelings regardless of a faith in God or higher power then that is fine. However just because feelings may be similar doesn't disqualify the possibility of the supernatural power, spiritual insight and development.
I think the idea of whether there is a spirit world or a God (of sorts) is a different and bigger discussion than whether one should remain in Christianity.
I am appreciative of all comments and am trying to process them thoughtfully.
May I recommend that you intellectualise regarding your spiritual experiences in the same way that you intellectualised regarding your theology. There are a number of books available on psychology and spiritualism and religion.
Andrew
Get a hold of Leaving the Fold: Testimonies of Former Fundamentalists, which may help, since there's an interesting story about a former Pentecostal at a Pentecostal seminary who became a Wiccan. Interesting road he's travelled. Ernest Heremia.
There's another story about a former fundamentalist Christian who had a strong spiritual experience upon converting and later he began reading the Christian mystics which led to the mystics in the eastern religions as well. He's still having spiritual experiences.
On Pentecostals, an old high school classmate of mine told me at our 25th class reunion that she came from an extended family of Pentecostal preachers, and both the preachers and their wives suffered manic-depression. In fact she began studying psychology and found that at a major metropolitan hospital in the northeast more Pentecostals were admitted to the emergency room suffering from severe manic-depression than people of any other Christian denomination.
My own experience in the charismatic religion when I was in my late teens did not include any visions or audible revelations, but I did experience tremendous joy once while raising my hands and "praising Jesus" with others in a living room meeting, and I could renew that joyful experience (though never to the same extent as then), though after a number of years the feelings dwindled to quite a low level.
An Evangelical Christian friend with whom I've stayed in touch (who never spoke in tongues) still claims to experience great joy when worshipping Jesus, though I'm unsure whether he experiences the overpowering joy that I once did.
I suspect that in our youth with all those hormones, we are prone to some very intense emotional/hormonal rushes, like endorphins writ large. Mother Teresa likewise had an intense experience of religion in her teens, but it pettered out and she felt that God was distant for all the decades that followed according to her diary.
Conrad Hyers in a little book titled Once-Born, Twice-Born Zen, mentions the experiences of a particular school of Zen in which the adherent concentrates on their wrongdoings and on the Buddhist hells and then is awakened to what can be called a state of grace and forgiveness. The description of that physical rush is quite intense, hence the title of the book and the comparisons that Dr. Hyers draws between the Christian experience and the Buddhist one.
Also, there are stories of people achieving nirvana in Buddhism and sammadhi in Hinduism that sound quite intense.
Lastly, there's the experience of one's first dose of heroin injected into the bloodstream that has been described as a thousand times better than the sexual orgasm, and the addict continues trying to reach that initial "high" again, yet never quite can (hence the phrase, "chasing the dragon," a chase that eventually kills the addict).
Just some thoughts and possible avenues to pursue. Of course brain scan techniques are also beginning to tell us a little more each year about the parts of the brain involved in religious experiences and what different people of different religion are experiencing in the same or different parts of their brains when they worship. Though catching the instant of greatest joy in such cases may be extremely difficult to do.
I suspect that in the realm of religions that stress "holy books" and "doctrines" that the assurance provided by such beliefs as "inerrancy" and by sharp demarcations of "truth and falsehood" even "eternal" demarcations, can become an addiction in itself, an addiction to absolute certainty, and damned be anyone who disagrees with such folks -- literally damned in the case of fundamentalist religionists, be they fundamentalists Christians, Muslims, Jews or even Hindus (yes, there are fundamentalist sects and individuals in all those religions).
I often find myself at odds with atheists, because many of them have never been Christians. So what they say to us is very similar to what I, never having used cocaine, could say to a recovering cocaine addict, because religion is a drug. If one has never been "on" it, it is difficult to understand.
I don't know what part of the religion you miss most. It could be the worship, the guidance, the fellowship, or just the need to know someone created you.
But regardless, you have to do what you feel like doing, not what others tell you.
So, try everything. Maybe you're like me. Atheists tell me that this or that is all bullshit, but I can't discount anything I haven't experience. So I give myself the chance to experience everything.
I've tried--and moved on from--religious science, spiritualism, Unity, the Quakers, Unitarianism, and other groups.
Having learned what these groups--which Christianity calls satanic--believe has been priceless in my search for what it is that I want to believe. I have learned a lot from them, as their philosophy is interesting.
I still don't know what I want to believe, but being open to research different views helps me expand my horizon and to understand what it is that people seek in religion. At least now when I want to criticize their views, I know what I am talking about!
Personally, I don't believe that every ex-Christian needs to become an atheist. But that's just my opinion.
Good luck in your search!
I am not keen to become an atheist (or antispiritist) at this point. For me, it seems to be a simplistic philosophy which discounts a lot of mysterious aspects of life. I think that the only intellectually justifiable perspective regarding many of aspects of religion and spirituality is agnosticism/scepticism. There seems to be numerous aspects of religion that can be discounted when one looks at anthropology, comparative religions, philosophy and science. However that doesn't discount the possibility that some aspects of spirituality are genuine and beyond empirical verification.
I have previously been fascinated by parapsychology and the first hand accounts of people who have experienced supernatural activity. I am trained in philosophy and psychology and am not easily taken by dubious accounts or experience though some seem beyond a scientism type explanation.
I have looked into experiences, which I and other credible people I know have experienced such as:
- feeling power flow into them from another person when they were touched by them
- extraordinary syncronisity
- incredibly accurate clairvoyance and ESP
- people experiencing Ghosts
- spiritual awakenings which provide new insight into the world and a glimpse of another type of existence
- near death experiences
I would like to be able to explain them all in naturalistic terms (and I know some people who think they can) though when you experience a number of these things its not easy to just discount them. Some people who I know who have had such experiences were not religious and some were.
I guess that is what true spirituality seems to do; It opens people up to a new way of looking at our world. I know many religions have got onto the bandwagon claiming absolute truth etc and I reject them. But I can't reject the reality of the spiritual and some of its claims.
My search for peace in this area isn't over though I can only keep on trying.
You could save yourself a lengthy well-trodden path by coming to the realisation that the spirit world doesn't exist. All of the things that you say that you have experienced can be explained using natural methods. I recommend Derren Brown's Tricks of the mind. Derren is himself an ex-Christian (who would do well to write an article for exchristian.net). In his book he debunks all ghouls and hobgoblins, religions and spiritualism as fake. Remember all that you say you have experienced is incredible and incredible claims require incredible evidence. May I suggest that you claim the James Randi prize for proof of the paranormal?
Your psychology studies should make the work of Dr. Susan Blackmore readily accessible to you. For many years she has been a researcher into parapsychology but now she has given up trying to find proof because... there isn't any. And you can read of her experiences here: http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/journalism/NS2000.html.
Andrew
But how can I, or Kevin, come to the conclusion that the spirit world doesn't exist without coming to our own conclusion by studying the issue to our heart's content?
I, for one, have to find out for myself. Believing what others say about it would be the same as believing in pastors and in the Bible.
Some of us have a fascination for learning new things and understanding unexplored issues. It is fine that some people want to go from being religious to atheists overnight. But some of us enjoy the journey of looking at different belief systems, analyzing motives and events, and reaching our very own conclusion.
Why do we all have to believe the same? We are individuals, hopefully, living in a democracy. Each person should do his or her own search and reach individual conclusions.
Personally, if I wanted to feel compelled to think the same as everyone else, I would have remained a Christian. It had its comfortable, cozy aspects. I left because I wanted to think for myself.
Kevin, as for your search, I am afraid the only people who come even close to explaining seemingly supernatural phenomena separate from God beliefs are psychologists.
A lot of modern psychologists have discovered in their practice that our brain has certain unexplored powers that can create seemingly supernatural phenomena. Maybe your search will take you there eventually.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=u6iEUanJbsw
http://youtube.com/watch?v=u6iEUanJbsw
Talk about an insult! Geeezzz!
Saying that a person YOU DON'T KNOW doesn't know something--anything--is as close minded and judgmental as it gets.
Why would anybody want to go back to Christianity to be that...stupid (to put it mildly).
At approxiamately 8 minutes into the 1st of 14 parts, in his opening remarks, Bahnsen discusses how the "non-Christian" religions are, um, "internally incoherent", and that they are "undermining human reason and experience".
At approximately 7 minutes/18 seconds into the 2nd part of 14, Bahnsen points out how the Atheist demands evidence from the Theist for their God(as if it unreasonable), at which point, Bahsen concedes that he would "gladly" do so, and starts by saying "there is the evidence of ordered creation, itself", which of course, is fallacious.
At approximately 7 minutes/37 seconds, he then states "[and then] there's the evidence of history"...at which point he references the "miracles", the "virgin birth of Jesus", "His[Jesus'] resurrection from the dead"... which, of course, he is referencing the Holy Bible, which of course, is completely circular reasoning..i.e.."God" exists because the bible says so; the bible is true because "God" says so.(2 for 2, failures at "evidence" so far, and we're still on part "2")
He[Bahnsen] then cites the "500 witnesses" in the Bible. I guess he forgot about the "witnesses" in the Book of Mormon, yes?
Part 3, Bahsen says, "the Atheist' worldview cannot allow for the laws of logic". lol
When I see such pathetically weak reasoning..i.e.. "evidence", like this, especially this early-on in a debate, it is serious "red flag" for what is about to come.
By the way, stating that all world views except Christianity are "self-refuting" is haughty nonsense. For one thing it implies that you actually understand all other world views. I'll wager that you know little to nothing about the vast majority of world views. If you'd like to set me straight, go right ahead and try. Listening...
lol!! Gabec, which part of christianity is logical??
First, I would concur that every ex-Christian doesn't need to become an Atheist. This particular board is ex-Christian.net, not the Atheist.net.
Nobody here is pressuring you to become an Atheist. You're free to be an Atheist, Agnostic, or can pick from any of the MILLIONS of religions out there.
Most of those religions proudly advertise that they alone are blessed with "The Truth" and most even offer a free gift like a busload of virgins or mansion with streets of gold if you do whatever they tell you to do.
All I ask is that if you choose one of those religions, you show a little respect for others and refrain from attacking those that chose a different free gift and avoid trying to legislate your beliefs upon others.
I certainly don't speak for everyone on this board but I agree with your assertion "I think that the only intellectually justifiable perspective regarding many of aspects of religion and spirituality is agnosticism/scepticism."
I have an open mind and the moment I see proof of Thor, Allah, leprechauns, Apollo, the Flying Spaghetti Monster or ANY OTHER GOD, I'll believe.
This brings me to another point. You stated: "I have previously been fascinated by parapsychology and the first hand accounts of people who have experienced supernatural activity. I am trained in philosophy and psychology and am not easily taken by dubious accounts or experience though some seem beyond a scientism type explanation.
I have looked into experiences, which I and other credible people I know have experienced such as:
- feeling power flow into them from another person when they were touched by them
- extraordinary syncronisity
- incredibly accurate clairvoyance and ESP
- people experiencing Ghosts
- spiritual awakenings which provide new insight into the world and a glimpse of another type of existence
- near death experiences
I would like to be able to explain them all in naturalistic terms (and I know some people who think they can) though when you experience a number of these things its not easy to just discount them. Some people who I know who have had such experiences were not religious and some were."
I'd suggest you do your friends a BIG favor and have them contact the James Randi Educational Foundation because there's a million bucks waiting for "anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event"
All they need to do is show proof of Ghosts, ESP, magical powers, faith healing etc and they'll get a million smackers...
http://www.randi.org/
He started challenging people to prove their fantastical claims over 40 years ago and so far nobody has been able to show evidence of any of those things.
They do seem to have entertaining excuses though... Sylvia Browne said she'd do it but she lost his phone number a few times and she's had scheduling problems for the past 7 years...
Thanks for the response, I was starting to think the site may have had more uncommon with atheism than assisting ex-Christians move through their issues with Christianity. I realise that atheism certainly does provide a benefit to many though.
I don't think I will be asserting any institutionalised religious organisations beliefs any time soon. Fortunately, even as a Christian I wouldn't attack other peoples beliefs but rather seek to engage in as thoughtful dialogue as I could. So be assured, I will not be condemning anyone!
In regards to my interest in parapsychology and my claims regarding experienced paranormal activity and the possibility of receiving such a substantial reward from Randi: the thing is I know all of the experiences I have had and other people, who I think were reliable sources, had none of them could be reproduced under controlled conditions.
I, like most of the world, would love to empirically verify or clearly dismiss the supernatural. However majority of incidence don't seem to be able to be reproduced under controlled conditions. I think it has to do with the nature of the spiritual and its inability to be clearly measured by empiricism. Some people certainly think they can turn powers on and engage in supernatural activity at will. If they are unable to reproduce it then they obviously don't live up to their claims and ought to be revealed as frauds. However, this doesn't make me think that the spiritual is not a reality and that supernatural activities don't happen.
I know there are wide ranging theories which seem to even explain away the supernatural though those explanations don't fit with so many peoples real experiences, including myself.
I know this is a big issue and has been tackled by much bigger minds than mine and even then it hasn't been fully put to sleep.
I am not trying or wanting to convince or convert anyone. I am just seeking to engage with life in a way that seems to be as coherent and justified as possible. I think perennial philosophy provides a good framework for me at present.
I do believe there is something more and I would look like to engage in or with it.