I really need answers
A letter from Nisa:
Hello my name is nisa, a 34 year old single mother of two. I TOO AM AT A CROSSROAD IN LIFE. i can truly identify with webmaster's testimony from beginning to the end. I was brought up in the pentacostal church, even as i type i am still confused of God's existence. See, i rebelled at the age of 13-14 and fell into the life of herion, prositution, sadomasocisim and exotic dancing... we all know how that story goes; however, the only thing that keeps me believing in a supernatural prescence is that I have experienced undoubtly, supernatural experiences. Like, the night i was going to commit suicide and as i was about to jump i felt as if someone was "holding me back" which make me rethink the whole situation or the numerous times when i sincerely bowed my knee and felt undoubtly great sense of contement in peace. Does our minds have the ability to create this?? Was this all in my head or can there be something greater existing beyond ourselves?? I could go on but I am only sharing this because I really need answers .
thank you ,
nisa
Hello my name is nisa, a 34 year old single mother of two. I TOO AM AT A CROSSROAD IN LIFE. i can truly identify with webmaster's testimony from beginning to the end. I was brought up in the pentacostal church, even as i type i am still confused of God's existence. See, i rebelled at the age of 13-14 and fell into the life of herion, prositution, sadomasocisim and exotic dancing... we all know how that story goes; however, the only thing that keeps me believing in a supernatural prescence is that I have experienced undoubtly, supernatural experiences. Like, the night i was going to commit suicide and as i was about to jump i felt as if someone was "holding me back" which make me rethink the whole situation or the numerous times when i sincerely bowed my knee and felt undoubtly great sense of contement in peace. Does our minds have the ability to create this?? Was this all in my head or can there be something greater existing beyond ourselves?? I could go on but I am only sharing this because I really need answers .
thank you ,
nisa
Comments
I have also had many experiences that feel supernatural or miraculous. I have come to believe that the "higher power" to whom I attributed these experiences was actually my higher self.
With your background, both religious and rebellious, it may be difficult for you to have faith in your own strength, power, and innate goodness. I believe it was your own true, powerful self who held you back from suicide, and you should nurture her and let yourself become more like her everyday.
But there are many others here who have found peace in alternative religions such as buddhism or neo-paganism. Check out the Ex-christian Theism and Spirituality discussions on the forum and chat with others there, you will see how many options you have for explaining your supernatural experience.
The mind does indeed have the ability to create all of this kind of thing, as an enormous number of mind studies have shown. MRI's on practicing zen masters, yogis and the like have even identified the changes in brain fuction that result in the sense of being in the presence of an infinite god, or of being one with the universe.
The human mind has an enormous ability to rationalize, and seems to want to rationalize things it doesn't understand as the action of unseen beings. This is just natural to the mind.
As to other answers, though, I'm afraid I have little to offer. You really need to find someone you can talk with about your feelings, who can help you sort them out. In my area there is a network of public health and mental counselers who can help you find an appropriate such person at nominal cost.
Was it my Higher Power or some psychological process? I can argue it either way and put together a pretty good defense. Which is it really? I don't know. Down deep inside me I prefer to believe it was my Higher Power and that it is my every day interaction with my Higher Power that keeps me sober. That's all I got. Hope it helps.
Steve
As I understand it we have both left and right sides of our brain, each of which is seperate from the other.
Each side also has it's own slightly different personality, one side is analytical, rational, etc. and the other is emotional, etc.
These can seem to be two different personalities at times, if they get a bit out of sync, especially at times of great stress.
If this happens each may even become aware of the other.
This can then create a sense of 'another presence', which can be sort of spooky, especially if it seems to have a different personality to the side that's still in sync.
This gets called by some the Higher Self, although it's not really the same as most spiritual descriptions.
Anyway, I wish you well.
who can think for herself. It sounds like that ability is starting to become stronger.
What kept you from committing suicide? I see others have offered
some good scientific reasons for
it; I'm no scientist, but I believe
we all have in us a strong desire
to survive, to continue to live
and be with those we love. Something supernatural? I doubt it.
I was involved in Christianity for
many years, and I can't claim to have had one supernatural experience.
On the left side of this site's
home page, note there is a place
to order books written by people
like Dan Barker, Valerie Tarico, and Edmund Babinski. These can be
a big help to you in abandoning
the ancient nonsense called religion.
My best wishes to you and your children. I hope you'll come to this site again for support and
encouragement.
There is no supernatural higher power,other than people.-freedy
What a compelling story. I am so sorry to hear that you had to endure such awful stuff, until it drove you to the brink of taking your own life!
I am with the non-supernaturalists here. Our minds can conjure up some incredible stuff. Others here have explained it more eloquently than I can.
Now you are on the road to clarity. No more confusing reality and imagination. I trust that you will eventually find peace as you put more distance in time between yourself and that brutal religious stuff that has caused so much suffering.
Take care of yourself.
Steve
Nisa, have you ever considered "why" you rebelled as a teen-ager? Do you think you were justified, or not...
Something to think about...
"When you are looking at symbols and forming them into words, left brain, the accountant, thinks "c" plus "a" plus "t" = "cat", and "j" + "u" + "m" + "p" + "s" is "jumps". To make sense, to integrate the idea of "cat" and "jumps" you have to go to the right brain. It is the right brain which creates the meaning and produces the concept of a cat jumping. So the major problem in dyslexia is lack of communication between the left brain and the right brain hemispheres."
http://www.lovinglife.org/brain.htm
Many complex systems run feedback loops of some sort, even matter at the atomic level can be understood by seeing the looping action between energy particles to fields...
As others have noted; our mind attempts to de-conflict information, by running loops between the left and right segments of the brain... When neural communication isn't occurring efficiently, then the mind is off balance, and casually producing mental anxiety...
If communication is efficient between the two brain segments, then a person has to focus their mind, on information they hold and attempt to de-conflict it, in order to reduce stress... Mental anxiety, many times is the result of mental conflict.
Nisa, if you have much conflict in your mind, it will feel unbearable for the most part. Because, your mind will continue to expend a lot of energy to "de-conflict" information you hold; this function is tied to how we orient ourselves... one can't find their orientation without a de-conflicted information center, which creates our perceptive windows to the Universe...
When we find ourselves in periods of our life; through developmental confusion, contradictory behaviors in our environment and what we naturally "know", that our mind just can't de-conflict, we reach a period of anxiety that triggers the mind to protect itself...
Some ways the mind protects itself, is by blocking out memories/information that is in conflict... Of course, there isn't balance; the part that may be blinded/shut down may actually be the "correct" and more "rational" information in relation to "Reality"...
As well, once your mind blocks the memory of a particular piece of information held, it may fix a specific conflict... but what happens as a result, is that the information that was allowed to remain "open", is now "elevated" in importance and may have cascading effects across a much wider base of information, in which case, a greater information field may be shut-down...
So, in essence, the mind as it attempts to defend itself can create an increasing level of anxiety. The key here is that we have the ability to "focus" our mind and "rationalize"... Instead of choosing to suppress conflicted information, it is much more beneficial to you to figure out the true "nature" of the information you hold so that you can make a proper relationship between a perceived conflict...
Objective conflict doesn't exist in life; only "perceived" conflict... The goal is to understand exactly what information or experience you have had that has caused you conflict, and to objectify that experience, in order to de-conflict/understand that which "is", and that which you may believe "ought to be"...
An example; a person sees another person being beaten up, one must come to an objective understanding of the "experience", so that they can more accurately assign personal meaning to the event...
First, a person needs more information than just being at a scene where a person is being beaten up; and believing they can assign a proper value to the event... The one being beaten up, just may have attempted to kill the defender who is now fighting for their life...
We all have to attempt to objectify what we experience in life, in order to have a more correct orientation and freedom from mental anxiety... As children, we initially "fill the gaps" (imagination, creative thinking, etc.), that we don't have answers to in order to function, albeit we are young and irrational on this level...
It takes courage, and a lot of initial pain to open the doors that have been closed for years, but the reward for de-conflicting painful memories, etc., is a life free of mental anxiety, and the ability to "know" when someone or something else is presented in conflict...
Initially, depending on which information is in conflict, you may feel that you have had to fall back to infancy and absolute disorientation (extremely frightening) in order to reassess and build your identity...
On supernaturalism, I think there is a lot of confusion on the word "supernatural"... it is used by some to suggest that which is unobservable in nature, like radio waves, etc., but that which we know to exist... thousands of years ago, the word "metaphysics" was used to describe such phenomena...
This term supernatural, is confused many times with Universal transcendence... that is, those things in the universe that are proposed to exist beyond the Universe... like heaven, hell, etc...
Many attempt to take examples of what we can't naturally observe, and propose that the "source" of such unseen phenomena is transcendent or separated from Nature/natural Universe...
I have only known Nature, and all that I have known is unified, and tied together... there is no "separation", within the field of Nature/Universe... When I must talk about ionic plasma, which makes up 99% of the Universe, and other such topics that I can't readily identify in front of my face, I use the term "natural phenomena", because no matter what I talk about - it comes back to this Natural Universe... I just have to figure out the proper feedback loop that will render consistency, and thus, knowledge...
To end, you need answers to your supernatural (your term) experience(s)... or those moments, when you felt that you had found something "different"...
Nisa: "Like, the night i was going to commit suicide and as i was about to jump i felt as if someone was "holding me back" which make me rethink the whole situation..."
Nisa, the key word in that phrase, is "re-think"... your mind is still functioning, and obviously you are aware on some cognitive level that life has "value". Therefore, you holding back is the sign of hope that you can get past the mental anxiety and suffering you have experienced...
What has given you hope along the way, it appears, are the moments when you find peace, and the release of mental anxiety/conflict...
Nisa: "...or the numerous times when i sincerely bowed my knee and felt undoubtly great sense of contement in peace."
This represents those moments, that give you pause and provide you "hope"...
If you go back to the beginning of this post, I asked you if your rebellion was justified or not in your mind...
If you hold yourself in "contempt" for something you believe you did wrong, or the way you have lived your life, it is "you" who are "condemning" yourself... society will judge you based on its standards, but that is distinct from how "you" perceive your "actions" and "yourself"...
Much of religion teaches that each person is guilty at birth, for some wrongdoing/sin, that isn't how "I" perceive myself... However, you may be holding guilt, because of some belief about yourself... yet, you likely don't understand "why", or "how" you came about holding guilt, or mental anxiety...
Yet, Nisa, you hold the keys to your life, through your ability to mentally focus and work through your challenges... no one can take that away from you, except you...
When you have felt relief, after kneeling, or showing some sign of submission... you have inherently released yourself from "conflicted" information you hold, likely "guilt", and all the "mental anxiety", that comes along with it...
"You" have stopped beating yourself up, or allowing yourself to mentally remain in conflict, you have chosen to not "focus" on the problems of conflict...
If you forced yourself to stop thinking about memories, etc., while "not" in the kneeling position, you would find the same peace, I'm sure... You are just removing yourself from the mental conflict you hold...
Religions, create a lot of anxiety by suggesting people are born defective and of sinful natures, and then suggest that the individual person must seek help from an external source/higher power... basically, eliminating the individual person as one capable of finding peace in their own life...
Nisa, "you" didn't find a higher power that released you from mental anxiety, you found that you have the ability to fall back to a state of peace, if you choose to, by focusing on letting go of painful past experiences in your life... while this is totally normal for short periods of relief, you will continue to be urged by your mental activity to resolve the conflict, because your subconscious will continue to work in the background...
What you have learned, is that there is "hope", that you "can" find peace by taking control of your mind and just releasing your past memories/information... this is the same effect you will have, once you work through your past information and it becomes less conflicted... and you find freedom from your perceived mental anxiety...
It may be helpful to understand how repressed memories work;
Transference: "a reproduction of emotions relating to repressed experiences, esp. of childhood, and the substitution of another person . . . for the original object of the repressed impulses."
Basically, imposing negative impulses from childhood onto another person without having a direct understanding of what one is doing...
Religion, works with an inverse of this... they teach, that a person, specifically every person, is "guilty", and that all "guilt", "shame", etc., for every perceived wrongful event in one's life, should be "re-directed" towards the "self"... thus, "everyone" should be consumed by mental anxiety, as a product of guilt, shame, etc.
In short, if a person is raped, religion would suggest that the victim is "sinful", and thus, is only reaping the effects of their sinful nature...
I tend to think differently, objectively speaking, there is a perpetrator and a victim, there is no "conflict" perceived by me... only "one" should be feeling "shame" and "guilt" - the perpetrator...
Free yourself, from the notion that everyone, to include you, deserves to be abused, and make sense objectively out of your past; this requires "you" to take control of your life... You hold all the answers in your own mind... Regards to you on your journey...
Perhaps there is something greater than ourselves. But I am more inclined to believe that WE are greater than we realize we are.
Prayer brings out OUR greatness, not the greatness of a god.
I always felt great after praying. I loved it. But it wasn't the presence of a god around me that made it great. The honesty with which I spilled my guts made the logical answers seem clear. I could see alternatives to my seemingly unsolvable problems once I had explained the problem to "god."
Nisa, I want to wish you the very best in the crossroads of your life.
I've known other women who have had a similar umm 'eventful' life history, such as your own. In most cases it has taken years (even with therapy) for them to reach a semi-peaceful existence from the inner turmoil that once haunted them 24/7, especially if they had been abused as well.
You don't say if those old events in your life's history continue to haunt you to this day, but I suspect they do, at least now and then?
As Dave8 pointed out, Christianity will just add to the guilt that already is present in you.
While the act of praying to a god might offer temporary relief from those awful feelings, in the end, the philosophy that Christianity uses on folks will only make one feel even more sinful than you would feel otherwise.
Religion is very much like a drug addiction. Being in 'contact' with god by praying is like taking of dose of the addicted drug. At first you feel better, but once the drug starts to wear off you start to feel awful again, which will only lead to taking yet another dose to rid oneself of the 'pain'....be that a mental or physical pain.
The act of praying satisfies oneself much like taking a new dose of that drug.
But like that drug, the effects are temporary and before long you feel awful again, so one then needs another dose, in this case, of praying.
It's an endless cycle really. One that you need to break free of.
You need to find your own peace within yourself and not feel some super-being is judging your life and seeing you as a hopeless sinner.
Your self-esteem will grow once you realize YOU are in control of your life and destiny, not some invisible god.
You will attribute the good things that happen to you as either being from your own actions or just pure chance alone. You will no longer see the bad things that happen as some punishment from god, but again, either from your own actions or mere chance.
Dave8.......
I have to say, I'm MOST impressed with your post to Nisa !!!!
If you're not a therapist, you should be !!
I have to say your words taught me quite a bit about the human brain. While I did already know some of the things you said, I never thought of them in the fashion that you connected things together.
Nisa would be wise to heed your words, without a doubt !
Thanks for the mini-education Dave. It was really a great post you did there (not to mention, a very caring one indeed).
AtheistToothFairy
We can only offer to those who seek help, as best we can, thanks for the compliment, take care...
Dave8
George
My name is Doug i just wanted to say that i believe your feeling of someone "holding you back" was in fact God. Im a christian and i also tried to commit suicide. But i too felt as if someone was holding me back and telling me to put the knife down. Some people believe that it was just a mental thing in the mind, but i believe it was God. I will be praying for you. If you ever want to talk my aim is JKSITH or yahoo karate_kid872000. Hope to hear from you soon.
I think that the feeling of someone holding you back was not god. I am an exchristian and have also almost killed myself. Years later I heard a still small voice letting me know that there really was no god. You see, I recocgnized that little wisper as me. It was that little part of me that gave me the strength to go on after not getting stronger through faith in christ. It was the voice of reason and common sense. It told me I had the strength in myself to take control of my life and face any mistakes I made, or would make, with courage.
I believe you have that strength too. FIND IT! TAKE IT! MAKE IT YOURS!
I am another exchristian who has been where you are now. I know exactly how you feel.
You will get better if you follow your own logic and reason and discard any hints of religion in your life. Religion is nothing but a chain on your mind that logic and reason will break, given the chance. Why not give yourself that chance? You have nothing to lose but the fears that religion has crippled you with and now's the time to break free. Do it for yourself and your child. You won't regret it. Cheers.
I have been married for the past 26 years to my second wife and we raised two sons that are both totally free of religion.
I look at it this way Nisa. If God were real and he did care so much about you, he would have never let your life get so far in the toilet in the first place.
When people tell me God is in part responsible from my sobriety from alcohol(not one slip), I say if God really gave a fuck he would have made me puke when I took the first drink of my life so I never got started. He would have made me hate the sight of any and all alcoholic beverages but shit the way my life was I would have drank a cup of piss if I knew it had a couple shots of vodka in it. My body was an alcohol craving machine.
Stay tough Nisa. Talk with real people who have overcome similar circimstances. Keep talking to us. Your life will get better, but it's all up to YOU. There is no invisible man to lend a hand.
xrayman
I think we as humans can use such events as motivators to reach to a better life (on the assumption that we were "in the shit") and hopefully see the world in a more positive light. That being said, I don't see the connection between such events and a sudden declaration of "Jesus Saves!" or "Christianity is the only way!", which are all things I have heard in my time in AA. Truth be told, my experience made it easier to leave xtianity behind -- no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't reconcile all that judgment and wrath with the idea of peace and tranquility that overcame me back in '76.
Nisa, to flip an old adage from the 1970's, 'if it doesn't feel good, don't do it'. Xtianity, with all its odd forms, rituals, varying beliefs, interfaith struggles, and general incoherence just doesn't work, nor does it feel good when doing it (at least not for me). If there is truly a Grand Designer of the universe, you're cool, as are we all. If not, then the least you can do is make the most of your days here, and that means starting now. As others have said, get some professional help if you can afford it and keep educating your mind -- this is truly your best defense for mental health.
I just want to let you know that I too have been in that place, wanting to die, many times in my life: mostly when I was a christian and then following my divorce.
I am glad you are reaching out. I appreciate the way you ask about the mind's abilities. I agree, of course, that the mind does have the power to create such feelings and experiences. For me, it has been comforting when I consider that if it is powerful enough to create some of the "supernatural" experiences I had, then it is also powerful enough to help me create the life I want.
I wish you all the best.
Back when I was a follower, I had a running buddy that said "Thank you Jesus" every time we finished a training run. I would say "Thank you Lord" even though I didn't really believe that I was getting any special help from above. Running hurt and I accepted the pain that went along with the activity.
After losing my faith, I continued to run and discovered that I felt no pain difference from when I was a follower. The level of pain did not change. The only change came about with more training.
I believe it's the same with any other activity, being strong enough to stop bad behavior such as drinking, smoking etc., is there for us. We have to believe in ourselves first, and have the confidence that we can stop doing anything we really want to stop. That confidence comes from within, not from above.
Trust and have confidence in yourself first, and you will find that you can do anything you want to do. It's that simple. Try it for yourself.
xrayman
I have never been addicted to drugs or alcohol. I have never tried to kill myself or ever wanted too. But I was a christian and brainwashed. Since leaving the "cult", I have never been any happier. That is hard to believe since I have always been very cheerful. I have no advice for you, I just hope that things work out no matter what you choose.
Farris
I do miss running but the biking works to relieve stress and gives a great workout as well. It just takes longer to get the same benefits, if you are trying to burn calories. I usually ride about 25 to 30 miles at 17 to 19 mph and I try to get in at least 5 days of workouts. I also dig for artifacts and that helps keep me in shape as well.
You mentioned the heat. We had 14 days in August that topped 100 degrees or more. Made me glad I was biking and not running.
Keep up the good work! Jim Earl
I am sorry to hear your suffering as well as your attempt to suicide.
I really would like to ask you what the purpose of your life is. I believe you could have lived much happier. Have you tried to ask yourself what is good and what is bad? Have you ever tried to make up your mind to do good? I believe you will feel happy and will enjoy from it when you do good. I believe that you can make it. Try to be honest to your conscience all the time.
Do you believe in Jesus? Do you believe that He loves you and died for your sins. Would you repond to Jesus love by turning away from everything which you know it is wrong? Jesus saves us from our sins if we repent. We get free and quit being slaves of sin.
I hope you may ultimately realise the meaning and purpose of life!
Peace and grace from Jesus to you!
Ibrakel
First, please---I implore you to disregard the advice given to you by our Christian guest, "Ibrakel".
Since you have obviously decided to be brave and "get real"; since you are obviously asking honest questions based on reality, then guess what?....then you deserve answers from people who have decided to get real and who live in reality. To state the obvious---this is an EX-christian website, so naturally, you won't find "answers in Jesus", here. What's important, is that you are questioning, seemingly, objectively......which is a start. That said--and with the exemplary post above mine--you are hopefully starting to see that the only "slaves", are slaves to ignorance.
Moreover, and to the heart of the matter---I've known, personally, three individuals who have been in your shoes as far as "reaching the end of their wits", and these people chose suicide as well, but obviously, they didn't get that feeling that "something was holding them back"..why? because they're dead now. The irony is, all three believed in the Christian biblegod, two attending religious services regularly.
So this clearly illustrates a couple of things I'd like you to consider:
1) Belief in a supernatural being and living a fulfilled happy life are not...repeat, ARE NOT mutually inclusive, nor will belief in such beings thwart, or resolve, feelings of depression and/or suicide.
2) If "Jesus" did not make his presence known at this obviously very dark time in these people's lives--and THOUSANDS more who also commit suicide--then either "Jesus" does not care, or "Jesus" does not exist. Either way, "Jesus" is utterly useless.
If you still feel there is a "higher power" in spite of what anyone says, then fine. But please, when/if times get rough, seek help from people who you can actually see and interact with. There are trained professionals waiting to help, and the better news is, they won't incinerate you should you for some reason not choose their services.
Best regards, boom'
In addition to my previous post, I would like to share my viewpoint on your question about supernatural being as well.
I believe there are good supernatural beings and also bad ones. However, I can't prove their existence because it takes even higher power than them to prove it. Neither can anyone prove that they don't exist.
I believe experiences are not always reliable but I also believe there are reasons and purposes behind them. Again, I believe your conscience should be able to tell which is good and which is bad, as far as your experiences are concerned.
Thank you very much for your sharing and my appreciation to you on this, especially your seeking the truth.
Ibrakel
"I believe there are good supernatural beings and also bad ones. However, I can't prove their existence because it takes even higher power than them to prove it."
NO....NO...Nooo!
It does NOT take an even "higher power" to prove the existance of supernatural beings. It takes good evidence to prove that they exist. Something like, a christian raising someone from the dead because she invoked the name of jesus. Or a burning bush that speaks. You know, something that is obvious that science can't explain. A real kicker would be if benny hinn prayed for an amputees arm to grow back on live tv and it did!
"...Neither can anyone prove that they don't exist."
It is the one who claims a suprnatural, extra-fantastical, ultra-powerful being exists, that needs to bring the evidence for its existence. Like if I said that I had sex with bigfoots alien daughter. You wouldn't need to prove that aliens and bigfoot don't exist to not believe it. You would, rightfully, require me to come up with some good evidence that I did what I claimed to do with the being I claimed to do it with.
"... I believe your conscience should be able to tell which is good and which is bad, as far as your experiences are concerned."
On this we agree. No need to refer to bronze age texts or some "higher power" to tell us what is good and what is bad.
---
Hi All,
The experience Nisa had here, has had me thinking for days now about similar experiences that other folks who are no longer xtians, had while they were still xtians.
Let's suppose one was in a situation that Nisa was, where your life was in immediate peril, either from your own hand, or even some external event beyond your own control.
Let's then suppose that one felt it was the hand of the xtian god himself, putting a direct stop to the action that would take your life.
In Nisa's case, she felt some THING was 'holding her back', but was it really the xtian god at work here.
Putting aside (for sake of argument) that this saving 'force' many have felt, was not some unknown supernatural force, or the force of some non-xtian god at work, then that would leave the xtian god's hand as the one keeping a person from dying.
Now, if while you're a xtian and you tried to kill yourself, and at that moment you attributed the force that saved you to being the hand of this xtian god, it then begs the question of WHY god would save you.
Obvioulsy many folks and many xtians, land up killing themselves at their own hand and god didn't stop them, yet someone like Nisa here gets stopped cold.
Now it might make sense for the xtian god to stop one of his own life-long believers from killing themselves, but what do we now say about all the EX-Christians that had this experience of god saving them, only to later lose their faith in this very same god.
God being an entity that can see the future, surely would have known the person he was saving, would in time just turn their backs on god, would he not?
If god doesn't seem to answer prayers of even his own flock and leaders, then what would prompt this god to save a xtian from killing themselves, if he already knows they will become ex-xtians in 'short' time.
He already knows he's about to lose this follower, so why single out this person to save, yet allow many self-proclaimed true xtians to die at either their own hand, or by circumstances beyond their own control.
Why does such an odd selectivity prevail in god's ways?
Yeah, I know the xtian answer....God works in mysterious ways and we can't know his ways.
But I have another answer here......There is no god going around saving folks. Either they save themselves or it's just chance that kept them alive.
AtheistToothFairy
ONE SINGLE AND SIMPLE THING !!
BELIEVE IN ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD, THE ALMIGHTY ONE, WHO CREATE YOU AND ALL UNIVERSE !
AND LIVE ALL TO THE TRUE GOD, HE WILL GUIDE YOU ALL THE WAY TO THE RIGHTWAY, TOTAL SUBMISSION TO HIM
WE CAN NOT KLNOWING HIM IN, BUT WE KNEW ALL HIS ALMIGHTY CREATIONS ONLY (BAN THE BIBLE FROM ALL OF YOUR LIFE, CHOOSE QUR'AN ALL SETLE)
BEST REAGRD jhoni tondano
DO NOT BE WORRY. DONT CONFUSE!
......(BAN THE BIBLE FROM ALL OF YOUR LIFE, CHOOSE QUR'AN ALL SETLE)
BEST REAGRD jhoni tondano
----
Hey Jhon-boy,
Okay, now that I'm done laughing my butt off after reading these post of yours, let me say this.
We already have several token xtian trolls, and assuming our long-standing troll marc hasn't converted to being a muslim, I have to assume by your post that you want to be our new favorite muslim troll?
Of course, you must meet the same strict requirements as our other favorite trolls, that we hold so dear to our hearts.
1. You must try and prove to us that your Allah god is the real god, but fail horribly in the process of trying.
2. You must insist that your "QUR'AN" is the holiest of holy books on the planet. I suspect you'll easily meet this one....that is to say, the INSISTING part.
3. Your spelling and grammar must be up to par with the majority of our xtian trolls. Not to worry, you met this one already.
4. If you're looking for 72 virgins to screw, try this site......Virgins-Not-Even-Allah-Would-Touch.YUK
5. Last but not least, you must wear your muslim troll costume while posting here.
Sign on the dotted line below and email to the webmaster
---------------------------
ATF (who never discriminates between xtian and muslim trolls)
I think the Qur'an is at least as idiotic and violent as the Bible.
And I "submit" to no god. Not even to Myself. (What is it with this submission stuff, anyway? Is your "true god" so insecure in its divinity that it needs human worshippers to debase themselves?)
May you one day see reason and live the rest of your life without a religious addiction. In the meantime... TURN THE FRIGGIN' CAPS LOCK OFF!
Although like you, I am questioning a few things myself, some things in my life I cannot deny as to the reality I have experienced of the supernatural.
When I was pregnant with my first born son, 7 weeks into the pregnancy I was haveing very sharp pains located where my right ovary is. My doctor sent me straight for an ultrasound, and they after it called the doctor and sent me back there emmediately. The doctor told me that they had discovered that I had an ectopic pregnancy, the baby was growing in my right ovary, my womb was empty and I must go straight to the hospital for an emergency operation as it was life threatening. Ectopic pregnancies are incurable and it is impossible for the baby to move once in the fallopian tubes or in the ovaries.
Devastated, my husband and myself broke the news on the way to the hospital to our family, who prayed for us and I personally made a promise to the Lord that if he decided to save my child that I would raise him up in the admonishon of the Lord for His service, neverhterless not my will but thine will be done.
At the hospital more scans were done by the proffessor confirming the location etc of the baby and the operation went underway after saying goodbye to my baby. I awoke from the operation, hysterical for the child i knew i was to lose. The nurse came over telling me to calm down and that my baby was fine. After asking ho this could be, she said that they dont know themselves as it is impossible, but somehow the baby relocated itself to the womb. Now if that was not a miracle I dont know what is, as now my son is 10 years old and requesting baptism!
Another miracle I had Nita which I believe is of supernatural origin, is that when I was 12 years old, For the past few years I felt extremely ugly,as I had big fat ugly warts all over my hands, knees and get this, even my chin and nose , yep i looked great! I had tried everything to get rid of them from peeing on them, banana skins, rubbing them on frogs, chopping them off, only to regrow, wart lotion you name it I tried it but to no avail. At 12 though I was really upset as I was soon to enter highschool, and did not want to look like the wicked witch of the east so I started praying that God would take them before highschool. About a week before I was to begin, mum (an athiest) took me to the doctor in order to get them frozen off) bout time too i thought!. In the waiting room, an old man approached me and upon telling him my dilema he insisted that i do not get them frozen off, but instead to go home and rub some red, raw meat with the blood in it on the warts and then to go outside and bury the meat. If ever i heard nonsense this took the cake, yet something about the man intrigued me so I told mum I was going to give this a try.
I told he doc, forget it and i did what the old man said. Nothing happened that day and forgetting all about it went to bed. I woke up that morning, went to the toilet, reached for the loo paper and started screaming. Family came racing over assuming i must be about to die or something. I leaped off the toilet, running around, screaming. MY WARTS HAD VANISHED! No bull! not one single trace of any were to be seen. Even my athiest parents were dumbfounded.
Not knowing if this was a miracle or not, later as an adult i prayed for light on the matter. I opened the bible and it was like scales dropped off my eyes for everywhere I turned it spoke of the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, and that by his blood we are healed and that the baptism is a burial of our old sinful life and the coins started dropping. God was showing me that the lamb, I rubbed on my warts was symbolic of the lamb of God who takes away my sin, and i was washed clean in the blood of the lamb, and that my sins were now dead and buried. My warts(sin) is put on the innocent lamb and buried for ever!! praise the Lord. I have more to tell but my fingers hurt.
Nita, some things are confuseing and hurtful in our life and we cant make sense of and it seems outright unfair, but I cannot deny the existence of God and the reality of these miracles in my own Life. Some things I am learning we try to complicate but the gospel is very simple
GBU in your search
Darlene
Everything in your "miracle" story just bounced right over me or something. I read it again, and I just don't see it. What did I miss?
Where was the incredible evidence that supports your belief that this was a surpernatural intervention. Your gospel is far from simple.
In your miracle, your all powerful god secretively prescribe his black magic remedy for you, via a third party stranger, who came to you in your final hour of need.
Is that the bottom line?
How do you connect rubbing red meat on your face with a supernatural occurence of divine intervention?
If anything, this "person in the waiting room" offered you a natural cure, which actually may have originated in a superstitious cult like the African or Haitian Vodun.
Animal sacrifice anyone? Rub in the
Blood- for smooth and glowing skin!
WTF!What/Who/When/How...nothing.
I tried to identify the clear moment of your miraculous event. Instead, it was like reading in the fog while listening to a mass of crickets.
My problem with understanding miracles" is that it never offers:
1)Direct evidence for anything supernatural.
2)Similar accounts of the same exact miracle happening in SMALL/GREAT numbers, all at once.
3)Evidence that ONE particular God is responsible for ALL miracles.
Honest questions:
In your opinion, why does your god totally ignore other faithful people with similar types of problems. Why heal only you?
I know of a girl, a Junior at my son's high school, who developed severe acne around 13 and has suffered with it since. I'm rather sure that her family and their church have prayed over her, asking god to heal her. She is a bit shy, but really friendly, and she happens to be very Christian.
What is the explanation for such a cold indifference to MOST people's suffering, ignoring the majority of life on this planet, and yet this god delivers this simple NATURAL remedy only to YOU.
Doesn't that strike you as odd?
Your god LIMITS his healing to only those he deems worthy or special enough to help.
How does that make you feel being considered so special and all?
Like Wow Man! God mustlike you.
I guess this girl I know is just not praying hard enough, or maybe it's just not the right time for her, or maybe her church is calling out to the wrong god.
She waits for YOUR miracle to come her way, every single day.
Why only some and not all?
Why is this God so persnickety and selective with his healing ways?
Examine that, please. Seriously.
Why would a god only chooses to give out skin care advice, or more importantly, a vast wave of complete healing for ALL of his "created babes" on Earth.
Fix everyone, not this particular one, or that special one. ALL OF US! Pray for that, would ya!
If I were an all powerful god, I would show up for work everyday and love to the fact that I can heal EVERYONE. I would WANT to meet and talk and laugh and be WITH the people who spend their life following me and loving me for all the healing I give them.
I would teach others how to have my healing powers, and I would limit them to only doing good. I would short circuit the human need for anything bad or negative. I would not give anyone free choice, only positive choice. My creation would care for each other, because I made them this way for a greater purpose.
It's called Peace.
End of story.
But I, am not a god.
IF I had millions of dollars, I would hire a dermatologist to help that girl treat her acne and rid her of her scars.
Now, IF that same dermatologist recommended the same type of treatment that you described above, as white lights shined behind her...then maybe you might be on to something.
BUT, even then, I still would not qualify it as a supernatural intervention. It is still, a man made cure.
So, do you think this girl will have her prayers answered before she starts her freshman year in college?
Since you have a high speed god connection, could you put in a good word for her with your god?
Oh, and please ask him to get busy using those special powers he allegedly has, and stop hording all those benefits for himself and his chosen few.
That girl will wake up tomorrow and still have acne. That is her reality, at least until some human (without wings) comes along to help her out, just like the person that came your way and helped you heal yourself!
Did you know that good ol' fashioned duct tape cures warts, too? Yes, it's true....and get this, it works on people of ALL faiths. Figure it out.
In the mean time, I have to admit that the "Yahweh wart-cure" is one of the more ridiculous arguments for a deity that I've ever heard.
And BTW, who the heck is "Nita", anyway?
Boomslang while you are wondering who Nita is, Ill wonder who Darlena is hey lol!
Guys, like I said, I do not have the answers to any of this, I was simply shareing my experience to Nisa of what I believe what supernatural. However I will say this, does it make you feel good and tough putting down and attacking everyone who is a christian because of your bitter experiences or views? Most people on here attack christians as if we are the ones who hurt you all so much.
I came to this site questioning christianity, this site has confirmed to me that christianity is a much better way of life. The hate that fills this site from non christians and the bitterness is amazing. I m glad to have found it as its answered a lot for me.
1) Religion is the problem and people, not true christianity and
2) That christians do seem like happier people than the bitter, angry non christians who never found healing and forgiveness
so thank you all.
For myself I am choosing to forgive those who have called themselves christians, yet fell short of the glory of God in behaving like them, for we are all sinners. Anyhow we are all free to take liberty to believe as we desire and find too be true, it is just a shame that a lot of non christians do not give christians the liberty and respect they deserve, as these christians perhaps are non much worse than the potty mouthed, critical, harsh, controlling, non christians who condemn the christians of the very same things
Darlene
Touché!!(Um, obviously, "Darlena" went over your head)
Darlene: Guys, like I said, I do not have the answers to any of this, I was simply [sharing] my experience to Nisa of what I believe [was] supernatural.
Yes, yes, of course, but unfortunately for you, the Theist, people of ALL faiths chalk-up their "miraculous" personal experiences to their respective "Gods", which BTW, often times the experiences presumably point to entirely different deities than your own; entirely different faiths than your own.
Darlene cuts to the chase, with: However I will say this, does it make you feel good and tough putting down and attacking everyone who is a christian because of your bitter experiences or views? Most people on here attack christians as if we are the ones who hurt you all so much.
***What we challenge, or "attack", is the Christian belief, itself. Now, before you disagree, notice that you are on an "EX-christian" website. Yoo hoo?.. hello??? Thus, yes, you may be attacked..the same way a beer vendor might be attacked at an A.A. meeting. 'Fair enough?
Darlene: I came to this site questioning christianity, this site has confirmed to me that christianity is a much better way of life.
Really? The ten minutes you've spent here has confirmed it for you, eh? I think you are being disingenuous.
Darlene: The hate that fills this site from non christians and the bitterness is amazing. I m glad to have found it as its answered a lot for me.
See here***above. Furthermore, if you are so offended by "hate", I wonder how you manage hating your own mother, father, siblings, and even your own life, as required by the bible, in order to be a "disciple" of Christ. 'Care to explain that? 'Listening.
Darlene: For myself I am choosing to forgive those who have called themselves christians, yet fell short of the glory of God in behaving like them, for we are all sinners.
There are no "sinners", because there is no "sin". There is only what is unethical. To say, and encourage, that we are born broken, unworthy, and needy, is to stab a knife in the heart of what it means to be a human being. Nonetheless, I too, am trying my best to forgive the family and friends who planted and propagated a LIE in my head. It's not easy, trust me.
Darlene: Anyhow we are all free to take liberty to believe as we desire and find too be true..
Yeah, we are free to believe, or not believe, thanks to the Bill of Rights/constitution. Otherwise, we'd likely have a Theocracy on our hands.
Darlene: ...it is just a shame that a lot of non christians do not give christians the liberty and respect they deserve, as these christians perhaps are non much worse than the potty mouthed, critical, harsh, controlling, non christians who condemn the christians of the very same things
I'm curious, exactly who is telling you that you cannot believe whatever fantasies you want to believe? Exactly, how are you being "controlled" by non-theists? This, I've got to hear.
"...it is just a shame that a lot of non christians do not give christians the liberty and respect they deserve,..."
...such as allowing them to write In God We Trust on everyone's currency? Such as inserting "...one nation, under God..." into everyone's pledge? The Xtian appetite for privilege is insatiable.
"...as these christians perhaps are non much worse [!] than the potty mouthed, critical, harsh, controlling, non christians..."
Ohhh, Magdalena / Nothing like the saint you are...
No one attacked anyone.
Is the sky falling too?
I examined your story, and then I laid out the questions that I was left with after reading your post.
You failed to present legit evidence for your supernatural intervention. You did not convince me of it happening, and I revealed my disbelief in front of you and everyone else.
Your subjective "experience" is not a broad reaching occurrence that has helped anyone else, but yourself! Is that not a selfish thing to advocate? That's why these miracle stories tend to bother me a bit.
Your miracle BRAGS:" I am special; I must tell everyone about how special I am because I received a special treatment from god. I am great and cured! OH, I am sorry it doesn’t happen for everyone so easily.
Almost everyone else reading your miracle story was left to feel inferior; I guess I suck, because god ignores me.
You see miracles ALWAYS leaves everyone else EXCLUDED. The unfortunate MASSES are left hanging out to dry, almost like being abandoned and uncared for.
That does not sit well with me. Preferential treatment that benefits the few, while the rest of the human population is left to fin for itself seems completely unfair and unjust.
ALL miracles are usually limited to only one individual, as yours is exclusively a special occurrence tailor made just for YOU.
That means, there will be a great number of people who are left to suffer because YOUR god is picky about whom he helps out.
I asked you how that made you feel! (But you will not answer me, for some reason?)
Darlene:"I do not have the answers to any of this."
But, you stepped up to offer the unanswerable to someone else. That is your form of "help"!????
Why not answer me? Is Nisa the only person on here, worthy of your cause on here?
Darlene:"I was simply shareing my experience to Nisa of what I BELIEVE was supernatural."
Exactly. You explained a lot right there in one word for someone who doesn't have ANY answers.
You believe...and I don't. That does not mean you have to exclude me from your conversation does it?
Darlene, you are the one coming to THIS forum to freely share your fluffy feelings with the nice folks of this here web site.
Suddenly, no one is allowed to state their thoughts or share their feelings, just because YOU are here and you think you are offering hope to someone with your wishy-washy special story.
You are refusing to participate in an honest and intellectual discussion, while stomping your feet like a child because no one volunteered to be on your team!
I think you simply got mad because my views and questions do not support YOUR Christian beliefs.
Why not talk with me about my questions? It might benefit both of us. There is no need to run and hide, as we are both capable of sharing our feelings openly and honestly. I am an adult.
Darlene Declares:" However I will say this, does it make you feel good and tough putting down and attacking everyone who is a christian because of your bitter experiences or views?
Darlene, you are avoiding the questions by throwing out negative accusations, which I know to be completely FALSE. That is wrong.
I asked you HOW it could possibly feel right or good to receive exclusive divine help from a god that is totally denying his healing hand to others, and somehow I get thrown under your "bully" bus.
I said NOTHING negative about Christian people! Why are you acting so insecure? You are the blessed miracle child here. Where is your confidence in that?
I was trying to inquire more from you and I thought I could get YOU to maybe ask yourself these critical questions.
You should think about the ethical juxtaposition this god puts you in as a human being. Compare your answered prayers and extraordinary cures, to the unanswered hope of a teenager dying from brain cancer.
How about the way your story makes ME feel as a person. You don't know what I have experienced personally.
Maybe I feel excluded from your special divine healing club, denied access to this supernatural help, etc...But I don't.
It actually makes me ill to hear mindless people go on and on about how the vague mystical forces of the universe work for them, but for most...eh not so much.
The GOD who you alleged gives you special treatment is ALSO neglecting to provide basic needs for an entire nation of poverty and war stricken children.
Innocent children get NOTHING, while you get EVERYTHING. Burn victims are scoffed at. Missing a limb, well you are shit out of luck. You live by miracles...they live in desolation. Get my drift?
I do question the validity of your miracles and your god's existence, but I will not apologize for that.
Does that make me a bully?
No. It makes me an honest thinking person that is skeptical of the glazed over miracle stories that are all to often offered up as HELPFUL advice from exclusive people such as yourself.
When in reality, it offers NOTHING tangible to someone else whom may be in dire need for help and hope.
Darlene falsely accuses:
"Most people on here attack christians as if we are the ones who hurt you all so much."
No Darlene. You are projecting again. That is a very dishonest thing for you to do, once AGAIN.
That same superficial accusation is pathetically parroted by all the faithful cult heads. That is typical empty name calling. At least pick something original to spew out.
We come to this site to share our personal conflicts we had/have with Christian theology and all the other superstitions that are related to religious faith in general.
Yes, we do discuss everything openly and with great passion. I enjoy it and feel at home. You are free to express yourself, so I in turn expressed myself. That is usually how these forums and blogs work; Hence the name of this site, EX-christian.net.
Sorry that our open discussions quickly pisses off the few wandering faithful who happen to stumble into this site by chance. (sure ya do!)
Christians throwing a fit over our accusations exposes a big fact about their beliefs: Faith itself is a fragile and doubtful state of being, by its own definition.
BTW: No one in church hurt me. They lied to me a lot, but I harbor no anger towards the people. I avoid religions, cults, churches, and all superstitions because it does not offer me what I am seeking in life; simple as that.
Darlene:"I came to this site questioning christianity,"
No you did not! That is quite obvious, as your post proves the exact opposite. You have not questioned anything about christianity.
Be honest, and say you came here to see the freak show. You have thousands and thousands of churches waiting for you to serve them. That is your choice.
We have specifically disqualified the Christian church for very valid and personal reasons.
We have each other and this little website. Good grief. We are not bothering anyone, as in showing up to your churches to call the long winded preachers out on their Sunday sales pitch.
Darlene- Are you capable of offering up an olive twig to allow us to have our own place in this world where we DO FIT IN with others like ourselves. We are the odd ones out here, and we know it.
Does that make YOU feel better?
Please! Your special self does not need any help from any HUMAN here. Just ask your god to give you what you want and provide all the answers FOR YOU.
You clearly have confirmed that you are closed minded to any form of questioning. You did not come here seeking anything outside of your selfish little "god loves me more" box.
Darlene states:"this site has confirmed to me that christianity is a much better way of life"
OF COURSE you say that now! At last, the truth comes out! Now, you are playing Christian cloak and dagger!
Darlene, I truly hope this exchange between us leaves you thinking and questioning more and more. Religion is not the answer, in my opinion. Tried it, but it did not work for me.
I never wanted you to take your ball and run home. BUT, if your state of faith is that of an eggshell, maybe it would be better for you to stay on the sidelines and observe life from there.
As for me, put me in coach!
I am ready to learn and I promise to play fair.
I know it’s just a song about fictional people but it chaps my ass because it certainly was inspired by stories that people hold to be true. “I was in a car accident. I should be dead but Jesus saved me. I was blessed…lots and lots of people prayed for me and I lived. God heard our prayers. “
Yet in the United States, there are around 40,000 a year – that’s a 100-something a day – vehicle related deaths.
Are these people unblessed?
If it is a blessing to survive something that someone else didn’t, what is death?
My injuries? Not a scratch. I got out of the car, called police, took pictures of the scene, called my wife, helped direct traffic around the live power cables that were all over the road, and after being ticketed, drove on to work in another car.
When I was a Christian, I might have considered the episode divine intervention. But since I wasn't a Christian any longer, I merely chocked it up to airbags, decent automobile construction, and lucky circumstance.
Why on any day of the week do some people survive accidents without a scratch, while others only sustain injuires, and yet others are inexplicably killed?
Because that's how the ball bounces, that's why. There is nothing magical going on, of that I'm sure.
Thanks to those seatbelts and airbags, we still have you to chat with. I am glad you survived it unharmed.
Seo,
That Jesus take the wheel song drives me batty! It is like listening to white noise or the scratching of nails down a chalk board. UGHH! It is a lullabye to brainwash the masses.
The people who insist that a divine miracle saved them, usually sound so over bloated by it. They make it sound like ANY miracle can be easily attained by everyone.
IF you have the right ammount/brand of faith.
If miracles are so easy to achieve, then why do they still need hospitals and doctors?
Dee dee de dum de doo deee
Dum de doo deee, de doo de dum dah
Jesus Takes The Cake...
I won't be able to get that song out of my mind for the rest of the day now. Thanks a lot.
Okay, that's all just a bit too weird (and kinky) if you ask me. Wait a minute.. you tried PEEING on them? WTF???