Lame, illogical arguments

Sent in by Cathy M

I do not consider myself a part of the Christian-sect; however, I find this site to be filled with the most cynical of former Christians -- and what's the point? Why would these folks need encouragement? I think it's because they still carry the Christian belief that they will burn in a place called hell for turning their backs on a God whom they believe to be vengeful. (case in point: why does the anti-spam question ask if fire is hot or cold? Freudian slip?)

It seems to me the whole purpose of this site is for folks to reassure themselves they made the right decision in leaving the Christian doctrine; yet over half of the arguments are illogical, lame -- as if the bloggers aren't quite sure they did the right thing.

One blogger argues against God and somehow introduces religion as part of his argument against God -- there is no relation between the two: God is God. He did not create religion -- religions were invented by men who attempted to control the masses.

It would appear your ex-christians discovered fallacies in the Christine doctrine, but that is no reason for them to slam the beliefs that others still follow. Everyone has their own truth, but not everyone has the same truth. It's whatever gets you through life and death.

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Anonymous said...

Oh my, where to start? First of all, "sweetie," you make all kinds of broad accusations with no specifics cited to back up your thesis. What arguments are we making which are "lame" and "illogical?"

When it comes to Christianity, what is NOT to be cynical about? If you're going to be cynical about anything, it would be Christianity (not to let other organized religions off the hook either). It's a religion which promises what it does not and can not deliver, love, tolerance, and everlasting life. Instead it brings us divisiveness, hatred, intolerance and a false hope for having some sort of blissful life beyond this one. It's brought us wars, torture, repression of scientific inquiry, justification for slavery, child abuse, and money grubbing hucksters of every kind, from selling of "indulgences" to Benny Hinn.

Why would Ex-Christians need encouragement? Because we're all victims of a brain-washing cult -- we're all victims of mental child abuse, and we need the support of each other, no less than a battered womens' support group or other such similar support groups.

Don't give us that old equivocation about God not being about religion. Of course it is. Man created gods, including your Jehovah; he's just as made-up as Zeus or Odin or thousands of other deities.

We're slamming the beliefs WE used to believe; what other people do is their business, just as it is our business, and not yours, what we do here.

Chucky Jesus

TheJaytheist said...

Cathy M:"Why would these folks need encouragement?"

Because some here are recovering from being brainwashed by the xtian cult. It helps people to encourage them to stand on their own.

Cathy M:"I think it's because they still carry the Christian belief that they will burn in a place called hell for turning their backs on a God whom they believe to be vengeful. "

Why ask a question then give yourself an answer? That is conjecture? If you want an honest answer, then just ask an honest question and leave your presuppositions out of it.

"(case in point: why does the anti-spam question ask if fire is hot or cold? Freudian slip?)"

Again with the presuppositions. It seems you're reading too much into a simple question.

"...over half of the arguments are illogical..."

Which arguments are you referring to specifically? Perhaps some arguments are more emotional than logical but what of the arguments that are not lame, but logical and reasonable? Do they not merit consideration?

"One blogger argues against God and somehow introduces religion as part of his argument against God..."

Wich blogger and which post? Was he perhaps arguing against the biblicaly described deity?

"It would appear your ex-christians discovered fallacies in the Christine doctrine, but that is no reason for them to slam the beliefs that others still follow."

So we are supposed to stay silent when they threaten to send the world into a new dark age?

I don't think so.

Larry said...

Just like an arrogant know it all christian, you are so full of your own self and your fairy tale that you just don't get it do you, god did not create man, power crazed men created god, to control, dominate and enslave the entire human race for their own insane selfish agendas. Their lust for total power, domination and control over man kind is never ending. The great majority of your "men of god" are sex crazed perverts that have a never ending desire to rape and sexually abuse children, mostly boys, now tell me where in your dung pile of a holy book where it says that it is ok to do that. If you don't believe that just look at the newspapers, there are countless articles about it in them, but being the good brainwashed sheeple that you are, you will just say it is all lies. Not to mention the adulterous affairs that these "men of god" have with church members wives, oh and lest see here what about the gambling junkets that some of the really big "men of god" like Pat Robertson, James Dobbson, and others took to Las Vegas and other places with Jack Abrahmoff, how about that, tell where your dung pile of a "holy book" sanctions these behaviors. I am sure if you take your time you will find it in some verse in their even if you have to twist it around to say what it doesn't, after all the "men of god" do this on a regular basis.
So mind your own business, ans stay out of ours, you busy body know it all, "I have the right way to live" religious freak.
An Atheist and religion hater.

Anonymous said...

Hey, Cathy, go suck an Egg...

I'd love to see proof of this "God" you talk about, the one who has no part of religion.

Can't do it, can you? That, dear lady, is because "god", just like religion, is a human invention for the control of the masses.

As for why we express such hostility to the various cults that robbed us of so much, and christianity in particular, look to that collection of faerie tales, where it says something about "if the Watchman see the Sword come, and yet does not sound the Alarm...".
Look into the parts of the world under the heel of fundy Islam: Sharia Law. Taliban.
Your Xian Reconstructionists and Dominionists just quiver at the thought of enacting a Xian version of THAT oppression in this country.

So what you see as useless bashing we see as fighting to keep this country free and Secular, as the Founding Fathers INTENDED.

Everyone has their own reality, right?

Roger O'Donnell said...

She seems to ignore the repsected members who are practicing deists...

Astraus, Buddhists, people I class as Thoreauian mystics, a couple I think border on being Hindu...

Yes, we are a venomousness of cynics... big fat hairy deal... survivors have earned the right to be cynical... although there are many here who are cynical in the non perjorative, classical sense... and that's a good place to be...

To quote the great Taoist sages - Extreme - 'If you don't like what you see here, get the "funk" out...'

clair said...

Please, first let me say please don't call anyone "sweetie". It is not nice, slightly demeaning as well. Also, she is not sweet at all in her embarrassing commentary. We, as atheists, or agnostics in some cases, do our best to treat our fellow humans with respect and dignity so that individual rights are not infringed, stepped on, spat on, or taken away because of non-agreement of a certain deity. If you do not agree with the website, it may be that you would begin to break all ten commandments with a fevered need, if the person, book, or established religion that currently runs your life and leads you, suddenly ceased to be. I am lead by no man, woman, deity, and I am very well. You, "un-sweetie, bitter in fact" seem angry, and I, Clair, do cordially invite you to think for yourself, think. You may leave this site at any time, but you are free to read about us, and think. Also, read the bible each day, as much as you can. Then you will never leave our site, because the only innoculation for the bible, is the book itself. C

Anonymous said...

I keep seeing people talk about how we only attack christianity, despite the fact it is Anyway, the point I am getting to is maybe it is time for an com). I already checked, neither pages (.net or .com) exist.

Anonymous said...

Cathy M said:

"I find this site to be filled with the most cynical of former Christians"

Let me TRY and help you understand why we are the way we are, but you have to want to understand our position, in order to begin to see what you obviously have problems now seeing.

How would you suppose all those de-programmed poor souls who once belonged to the more radical sects, feel about their former lives in such sects?
Sects, that clearly brainwashed people, such as the former Jim Jones Temple, The Moonies, Charles Manson Cult, and the many others that have, and still continue to this day, to steal 'souls' for their own selfish twisted purposes.

(Note: There is a show running on the history channel about these sects, if anyone is interested)

I think that most Christians of the major denominations would grant such de-programmed folks the right to be just a little bit cynical about their former sect beliefs. Most of the mainstream Christians would see no problem with the vast amounts of emotional damage having been done to these former sect members, but yet can't comprehend why we atheist are cynical about religion when we finally discover it's true origins.

We former Christians may not have been as severely brainwashed as those cult member were, but the fundamental fact to us, is that we were lied to through all of our childhood and usually well beyond, about a god myth.

So where is the difference of being cynical about religion in general, versus those obscure cults that most of us would grant the right to ex-members to be cynical about?

Also, unlike it was for most of us who found out in a brief episode of time that Santa didn't exist and got over it in a relatively short amount of time, our exposure to religious beliefs lasted for many years longer, so it was usually more difficult than Santa, to give up those beliefs.
After all, we didn't get dragged each week to a make-believe north pole for Santa indoctrination and study, like most of us did for religious studies.

Santa pretty much only existed for a brief period each year and then only for a few years of our lives.
Relgious brainwashing on the other hand, was a weekly (if not daily) undertaking, one that came complete with a sacred special 'holy book' and real live churches, where our god-like parents went to worship each week and dragged our innocent minds along for the needed brain-scrubbing.

The amount of effort the adults spent to show kids that god was very real, left most of us with no reason to question such beloved beliefs the adults obviously held valuable and 'true'.

So much importance was placed upon these beliefs. Heartfelt beliefs, that we later came to realize were nothing more than mere myths; myths that now are seen in the same category as Zeus and Hecules.

I think we earned the gosh darned right to be cynical about the source of such huge lies told to us, just as those former sect members earned the right to be cynical about their former cults.

I think we as a group, are not just cynical, but actually angry for the way we were deceived, for the vast amount of time wasted, and for some of us, giving needed money away to benefit the church, at the cost to our own well being at times.

For myself, I'm personally angry that I was forced as a kid to waste so many hours at church. The time wasted itself was bad enough, but I was forced to go through religious schooling, even having huge importance placed on passing school type test about how well I understood these odd doctrines.

Tell me Cathy M, what value did I receive from learning these obscure doctrines, most of which didn't even seem to be directly supported by the holy book itself?
Will knowing such doctrines feed me or help me get a better job.

I say to you Cathy M, most of us surely have good reasons to be cynical (if not angry) and unless you can show us real logical proof as to why we shouldn't feel this way, then I say to you that until you have walked in our shoes, then who are you to tell us what emotions we should be feeling?

Would you suppose to understand what specific emotions a woman who was raped was feeling, unless you walked in her shoes yourself at some point.

How then can you tell us that we should not have such cynical feelings about such a grand deception, I ask you?

While we may as a rule, be quite cynical, I'm willing to bet our hearts are at least as big as Christians claim theirs are.
I'm pretty sure there are very few cynical amongst us, that would for instance, burn witches at the stake in the interest of devil fear.

I'll take us cynics and skeptics any day over religious zealots who rule the world by their interpretation of some holy sheep herder story book.


Anonymous said...

Sent in by Cathy M
"I do not consider myself a part of the Christian-sect;.............."

CATHY M! What sect are you part of?

Maybe you belong to Mensa, and are a genius, and that is how you discovered that people on a website called (Ex Christian) were violating a serious rule of blog decorum by criticizing Christianity.

Dan, Agnostic

eel_shepherd said...

Cathy_M, in the topic post, wrote:
"...It seems to me the whole purpose of this site is for folks to reassure themselves they made the right decision in leaving the Christian doctrine;..."

Without any intention of trying to rile you up, may I suggest that that is a superficial reading of their motives? You might want to add in that they also see the need to protect the intellectual environment from the scourge of people still drugged up on fundamental Xtianity. That offsetting voice needs to be out there, and as far as I can tell, this is the premier site giving a forum for that voice. Also, you will note that Xtians are free to come in here and make their case. A site devoted "the non-Xtian way or the highway" would never allow a dissenting voice singing off key in the choir. Having left one form of absolutism, the members have learned enough not to allow the pendulum to swing to the other extreme, shutting out the voices of people making the case for the other side. They have evolved.

"...yet over half of the arguments are illogical, lame..."

What about the (...just under...) other half? Why not grant what you think are the negligible/lame arguments the mercy of your benign neglect, lest you become a bottom-feeder yourself?

[Off-topic, now...] Seen somewhere on the `net: "Does god know what he's going to think before he thinks it?"

Anonymous said...

I don't understand why people go to gamer sites to argue about which version of a particular game is best. So, guess what? I don't visit gamer sites. I have no interest in the subject and no stake in the debate.

Then here comes Cathy M. telling us she is not a member of the christian sect but preaching at us just like any garden variety fundie. Just another liar for jesus. Ho. Hum.

Anonymous said...


You say that you are not Christian, nor have you been Christian, right? So then what the hell are you doing here? Are you familiar with the phrase "mind your own gawddam business"?

Anonymous said...

How can you say Christianity is not religion? I gaurantee you, you practise religious rituals regularly as a Christian and God even recommends them - sometimes even insists upon them.

Tell me you haven't done any of these things:

• Baptism
• Communion
• Speaking in tongues
• Laying hands on people while praying
• Annointing with oil
• Casting out of demons
• Standing in a congregation together and singing together
• Raising hands to God
• Holding hands with the person next to you
• Dancing to God
• Reading the bible daily
• Praying
• Going to church every Sunday

Whether you want to admit it or not, all that is religion.

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