i've looked at this website and have found that so many of are not necessarily looking for the Truth, but are more bent on proving that the Truth isn't. When Jesus the Christ was speaking to people who questioned Him (Pharisee and "ordinary" folk alike), He knew what was in their hearts. He understood those who came to Him looking for Him (the Truth) and He also understood those who came looking to make a point of their own; those who came to prove Jesus wrong and show their own intellectual/emotional/spiritual fortitude or ability.
As for the writer's comment that his Bible teacher told him that we are not supposed to know everything there is to know about GOD, I say "Right on!" We are not supposed to know everything. I wish, for the life of me, that I fully understood this issue of "pre-destination" or "non-pre-destination", but I do not. Does that mean that I should reject Jesus? Does that mean that, because I don't understand it, GOD has it out for mankind? Since GOD made us and understands how our sinful minds work, since He is love, why in the world would He purposefully include something in the Word that would cause us to turn away?
We seem to take the things that we don't understand about GOD, rationalize them and come out with our own meaning of things, which leads to a rejection of Jesus the Christ. We kinda like the fact that GOD would send His Son to die for us b/c He loves us. That idea makes sense to us and makes us feel warm and fuzzy inside. The idea that GOD gives grace to the humble but cuts off the proud is good for us, b/c it appeals to our sense of justice. And the fact that Jesus heals makes sense to us. But GOD sending people hell? GOD foreknowing and predestinating people who would choose Him? Rom.8:28-30 Oh, forget it! That's it! Reject and insult Jesus (ie: the art gallery photos on this website)!
Christianity in and of itself asks us to come to GOD like a child. Jesus said it first. If we come to GOD, full of our own understanding and ready and willing to fit Him into our own little box, how can He teach us? If we are already full of ourselves and our own understanding, how can GOD fill us up? It is impossible! Matt.18:1-5
What I also do not understand is the term you use "ex-Christian". How can you be an ex-Christian? I can understand how you can be an ex-churchgoer, an ex-Bible-reader, or an ex-praying person. But it is impossible to be an ex-Christian/believer. Jesus said that those who decide to leave the flock or turn their backs on the flock (such as yourselves) were actually never part OF the flock ("among" us, but never "with" us). Just b/c you went to church or "prayed the prayer" without ever believing in your heart that Jesus is the Christ, doesn't make you a Christian. It's almost like saying that standing in a garage makes you a car! However, it is interesting to know that Jesus is still on the lookout to save those who were never of His flock. John 10:14-18 And those of you members of this website who are still part of the flock, please listen when you hear Him call.
GOD made it clear in His Word that His way of doing things is far different and far better than our way of doing things. Isaiah 55:1-11
We would have GOD one way. The problem is, is that He is not. Jeremiah 2:11-13
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66 comments:
wow, what a load of crap.
Why do you think you can speak about god? What makes you think you are able to know 'him'?
What is 'the Truth'? It's a completely meaningless concept.
You think just because you believe something, just because you feel something strongly, that its REAL? Come on. It's a feeling. Any reasonably advanced person can induce feelings in other people. Movies, music, rousing speeches, all of these can induce feelings.
Your mistake is confusing your feelings for reality.
Unfortunately you appear to be so overtaken by the xian mind virus that no amount of reason will save you. Luckily, you are a dying breed.
Look, most of us have read the bible, and many of us have practiced xianity as preachers and other church leaders. We did our part. Why don't you do your part and try reading some Sam Harris. No one is asking you to 'believe' - you can make up your own mind, but you need more information before you can come to an intelligent decision. I know preventing yourself from getting information that threatens your mind virus is something the virus makes you very uncomfortable with. Stop being an intellectual child and read something you might not agree with. What harm could it do?
http://www.samharris.org/
How can I be an ex-christian?
Well, let's see there was speaking in tongues several times; the experience of hanging on the cross; discovering that Jesus died for the sins of humankind so that I wouldn't have to; endless bible studies, hungering for the Word, seeking salvation and the list is endless. Did I leave anything out?
Well, maybe I wasn't a "real" Christian because if I were a "real" Christian, then I would still believe. And if I just believed hard enough & loved my father hard enough, then he would really have loved me in turn.
At some point, the retort that the "ex-'s" just didn't try hard enough wears thin.
And really, if the "faith" of the Christians is just another word for conviction of the truth of one's own beliefs, then there are plenty of ex-Christians. If "faith" has nothing metaphysical & supernatural about it, then "faith" and "being a Christian" are except for an idiosyncratic terminology, indistinguishable from any other fervently held opinion and belief.
Since GOD made us and understands how our sinful minds work, since He is love, why in the world would He purposefully include something in the Word that would cause us to turn away?
Why indeed? That is a good question. But judging from the experiences of people here, it is that very word which HAS caused people to turn away. So does that mean he didn't purposely include it in the world (which means it was included by mistake and therefore challenging biblical inerrancy)?
Just b/c you went to church or "prayed the prayer" without ever believing in your heart that Jesus is the Christ, doesn't make you a Christian.
Are you even remotely aware of how condescending that is? How can you tell me what I believed in my heart at one time. How can you say that you know my heart better than me? It's insulting. I know what I once believed...once truly believed. And I know what I no longer believe as well.
Question for the original poster:
So if I was never a "true christian" like you, what about all the people that I led to christ during that time?
Are they damned to hell too?
~ Aurelia
You're a load of crap, mister ryan scott. :)
If you really are some kind of bible scholar, than i imagine you are as familiar with the prophetic scriptures as you are with the ones that contradict the supposed "nature of God". Because the fulfillments in the bible are outrageous in number.
Have you seen the historic places that still stand, thousands of years old? People didn't just write a random story, these things actually happened. It's literally set in stone.
When you actually have confronted the evidence with the science hand in hand, then maybe we can discuss theories and your own personal "feelings".
Clearly Dominique here, has come to an intelligent decision. It's very rude of you to infer that he's stupid, when you're the one whose first backboned ancestor was a stupid fish.
Jesus said, Jesus SAID, Jesus said "If you find out about the Man behind the Curtain, well, we have an answer for THAT, too!"
I doubt anybody said that, but for some ancient preacher who was having trouble with his flock wandering off after unanswered prayer after unanswered prayer...
Before you spew some more of your Sundayschool garbage, know this:
We believed, we studied, indeed, most of us have read the Buy-Bull MORE than your average "In god We Trust" "Christian". But you don't know any of us. Not our hearts, not the long questioning nights, not the unanswered prayers. No, all you know is the feel-good interpretation that anyone who leaves "the Fold" wasn't a "Real" Xian in the first place.
John of Indiana
OK, I usually just read this stuff (which, I love this website by the way) but I never comment. This is just so rediculous that I have to say something. First of all, those of you "Christians"... do you read anything other than the bible or christian books (like Lee Strobel)? Do you listen to anyone else other than someone behind a pulpit? I became an ex-christian b/c I started researching the bible and proofs of God and and Jesus, etc. I found nothing. I wanted something unbiased... not tainted by fundementalist power control... found nothing. There is more proof against the bible being fact than there is otherwise. Stop listening to what other people tell you and start thinking for yourself. Use your freakin' brain!!! Do some research, you'll see.
I was a Christian of all Christians by-the-way. I did a 2 year discipleship program. no dating, intense bible study, etc. Married a bible college student, wanted to save the world. i had such a deep passion for the hurting world. Saving the lost from a fiery hell. But then I started to open my eyes and think for myself. Why would God create someone to sin then torment them for eternity for doing so? Or in my case, why would god send me to hell for trying to find him and come up with nothing. If God is real maybe he'd be smart enough to leave some proof or make some sense of himself and then we'd all be saved.
Dominique,
Jesus never said "that those who decide to leave the flock...were actually never part OF the flock". On the contrary, Christianity loves to use the phrases "once and for all saved", "I will never leave you or forsake you", "I know that I know that I know", and several others to prove that once you are a Christian, you ARE a Christian. I don't know about everyone else here, but I can say truthfully that I WAS a Christian in every sense of the word. Now I am not a Christian. In the same way for a few years of my life I was a smoker. I inhaled the smoke, it went through my system, and it came out. I was a smoker. I stopped smoking, and became an ex-smoker. There's really no science to it, there's no need to consult scripture, and no need to have faith that I was or am not now a smoker. It's just common sense, which you are obviously lacking.
Preston,
Two points
1) you're on crack
2) Dominique is a Girl's name you moron
OF COURSE it's possible to be a former Christian!!! If someone believes 'x' on Monday and then on Tuesday decides to believe 'y' instead, then it is perfectly logical to say that person is a former believer of 'x'! This isn't rocket science!! LMAO!!!
Just because you personally chose to abandon reason and instead embrace superstition, mythology and religious zealotry as your frame of reference to reality, please keep in mind that most of the rest of us have not and therefore will view you as delusional, possibly even psychotic. My advice to you is to drive yourself to the nearest mental hospital asap and request a complete psychological workup to make sure you are not a danger to yourself, your family and the general population!
Good luck!!
This was an argument for children.Stupid children at that.
i've looked at this website and have found that so many of are not necessarily looking for the Truth, but are more bent on proving that the Truth isn't
youre like one of those really unfunny stand up comedians who thought their punch-line is the funniest ever, though the crowd has heard it all before and are only offering a sympathetic laugh.
hardy har har har.
The trouble with this mongrel Dominique saying we were never real Christians is that he's assuming we never believed with any real feeling, that we were never convinced of the truth of what we heard preached at some point or another. Jesus may very well have said that there are those who are amongst the true believers yet not true believers themselves, but he could've just as easily been talking about people like this arse-hat, this clown who is very un-Christian in his assumption that he knows how "genuine" we were or what motivated us to leave. In that sense, he himself has spiritually abandoned his original faith and now acts as if God has given him insights into the minds of those he has never met and knows absolutely nothing about, which is actually just a form of pride -- which comes before a fall.
He's so sure of the truth that he almost seems like he thinks he could point the way to a blind man, yet in fact for all his "Christianity" he forgets acclaimed Biblical heroes who were NOT Christians, not even JEWS (Cyrus the Great of Persia comes to mind, as does Nebuchadnezzar II), yet still were ultimately exalted in the faith. So right there his little security bubble that says "Only Christians can be saved" is burst.
And why should anyone stay with Christianity when it is evident from Scripture itself that the more you know of your sins, the more your conscience oppresses you and the more your punishment will be harsh?? Jesus didn't say "Forgive them father -- they know exactly what they're doing!". Therefore ignorance truly is bliss, and if there is a "Hell", I for one am not going to defile my weak conscience to such a degree that I am twice as likely to end up there as these Bible-thumping Christian nutjobs. If they want to increase their chances of forfeiting their supposed "Salvation" by not being able to fight the realisation of how many sins they commit that they can't avoid doing on a daily basis, fighting an uphill battle and causing their man-god to symbolically have to keep dying for them EVERY DAY, good for them. As it happens, I pay little mind to any "truth" that took almost 300 years to arrange into a "suitable" book, especially when those who compiled the book were probably Anti-Semites, as evidenced by the era of forced conversion of Jews to Christianity and the notorious period in history many centuries ago in which pursuing the Sabbath on the original day (Saturday) was punishable by death.
The truth is that Christianity itself could have been alright, but it was ruined long before any person alive on Earth today was even born. What we are left with is the skeleton of a monster used to inflict untold hate and misery on millions, ranging from the Jews in the Dark Ages and Middle Ages, to those who dared to publish the first Bibles NOT in Latin, to the generations of children terrorised into doing the "right" thing out of fear of going to "Hell", to the homosexuals who would have been great peace-loving vehicles of faith and truth but who instead have had vilifying, condemnatory preaching thrust upon them unrelentingly and without compassionate effort made to explain WHY what they do is supposed to be so wrong apart from "Because the Bible says so".
Even worse, modern Christianity, the great steaming heap of shit that it is, could've been fine if the original teachings of Jesus weren't fucked with, but the minute that every Christian's favourite apostle wannabe FAUL (False Paul/Saul) got hold of it, he raised the number of rules given by Jesus ("Love your neighbour as yourself" & "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind & soul") to include a bunch of rules of his OWN, including calling long hair on men "a disgrace" (slander against Nazarites!) and encouraging rampant sexism in churches for centuries wherein women were expected to sit still and shut up just because of a comment he made in a LETTER to a congregation which ended up being taken as fit advice for all Christian women everywhere. Fuck Paul.
As for Jesus himself, to claim he is God incarnate is an absolute farce. He said himself about his return: 32"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." He may have said "I and the Father are one", but this could just as easily mean "one" as in "united, on the same team", not PHYSICALLY "one". There's no way of knowing. All you can be sure of is that they are not literally the same person. And the famous "My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me?" is NOT the cry of one who IS God. Idiotic Christians. How do you forsake yourself?? So the gospel of John has that fancy intro about Jesus being "The Word" who was with God from the beginning. So what?? That means nothing. Back-translate it and you'll discover that at the very most all it means is that Christ was an IDEA God supposedly had in the beginning. Through a horrendous screw-up of semantics, Christians have been led to believe the biggest load of shit this side of Alpha Centauri. They are so ignorant that most of them would probably be perplexed in their Trinitarian mind-sets if you even dared quote the Shema to them even though it's in their Bibles and is therefore part of the false religion they created by hijacking Judaism and riddling it with Pagan junk.
But if Christianity itself is so deceptive, then why even trust the words of the Old Testament so thoroughly?? The New Testament should be called "The New Testament, aka 'The Testament to The Shady Character of Human Nature'" and the Old Testament should be called "The Old Testament, aka The Bit Where We Build Up Tension Until We Get to The Part Where We Screw You Over With The So-Called 'New Testament'".
Yeah I was very Christian once. People used to have to tell me to shut up about it. I tried converting people, and I lost a friend for it. That was nine years ago. I regret what it did to my head. Now I'm more like (and I stress, like) a Buddhist in my beliefs. Buddhism appeals to me because it isn't about claiming to know things you don't, or claiming that anything is definitely true or real. Quite the contrary. Not to mention that most Buddhists don't use the freedom to eat meat granted to Noah and succeeding generations as a license to support the slaughter hordes of sentient creatures just to eat something "tasty". Screw Christianity. If some God wants to "save" me he can do it like he supposedly did with Nebuchadnezzar II and Cyrus the Great. I'm not staying with a formally-recognised monotheistic religion to please any cunt. I am my own fuckin' "church" and my "scripture" is my fuckin' brain man. And no I won't go easy on the language. Don't apply rules that aren't universal to me. "Fuck off" doesn't even have an equivalent translation in half the World. You Christians think Jesus saying "It is what comes out of your mouth that makes you unclean" is a reference to profanity??? How do you know it's not actually a reference to calling people "fat" or "ugly" or mocking their clothes -- REAL universal insults that are globally-recognised??? Do your fucking research, I'm not going to sit here all day and explain everything to you. If Jesus was real and was at a table havin' a feed wiv me and I said in a friendly way "Hey bud can you pass the fuckin' sauce?" that he'd rebuke me??? Hahahahaha! You fucking blind cunts, you burden others with your sanctimonious bullshit just like Pharisees. Fuck off and die.
All you Christian muthas can suck me 'cos I'm proud to be an ex-Christian 'cos it means I'm not like any of you who've read this an' got all offended and high-and-mighty. I'm not even gonna come back and read the shite holier-than-thou responses either. I don't want to piss myself laughing. I prefer my pants dry thanks.
~Rob
Once again we see the fallacy argument of inclusion/exclusion, "you were never really a True Christian, if you are no longer a Christian".
So, once again, I use the analogy of an "Ex-wife". Would any fundamentalist Christian care to chime in and tell us "false ex-christians" how a women who left an emotionally and/or physically abusive marriage was never really a "True wife"?
No. You won't, will you? No..and that's because you can't. And that's because it boils down to the personal(subjective) experience. It would be the equivilent of walking into a battered wife support meeting, knocking the speaker down, getting behind the microphone and saying something like, "Listen here ladies!....I've been married for 60 long happy years, and I'm here to tell every one of you Ex-wives that you f%cked up! That's right, you were never really married! You didn't really try! Your husband was just using tough love to make you see things His way, and you went and let Him down!"
Now, if you can see how asinine that sounds, then you can see how asinine it sounds when you say former Christians were never really "True Christians", but tenfold more, because we actually have evidence that "husbands" exist...:wink::
Again, if I am wrong, then please tell us on what grounds that you ***KNOW*** that every single divorced woman in history was somehow at fault for their failed marriage. Listening.
And if you can't indulge me in that challenge, then riddle me this: Are Shirley Phelps and her congregation(her family) of funeral crashing thugs "True Christians"? Mind you, they follow "the Lord your God's" book to the f%cking letter. That's... TO THE LETTER. Now, will you say they aren't True Christians? "Yes"?....you will? Well that's funny as hell, because they'll tell YOU that you aren't a True Christian.
Do you see the f%cking problem with that? Yoo hoo? BiNg boNg? Any "True Christian" want to chime in? 'Didn't think so.
Bottom line---only the individual knows if they "believe(d)" something, or not.
Okay Dominique,
Let us agree, for the sake of argument, that you are not "supposed" to know everything about god. (Supposed by whom is a bit of a problem, but let's leave that aside for now.) Can you please tell me ONE THING that you do know about your god? What I'm asking for is a single clearly supportable fact about your god--anything at all that you can back with credible evidence. Just to be clear, if you tell me that god "wants" something or has some property because that's what it says in the Bible, I'm going to ask you how you know that the Bible is factually accurate on that point. If you tell me that it's "god's word", I'm going to ask how you know that. If you point to prophecies, I'm going to insist that we read them in context and consider how they might have been written and by whom. Do you see? Okay, you start it off, if you're game.
"If we come to GOD, full of our own understanding and ready and willing to fit Him into our own little box, how can He teach us? If we are already full of ourselves and our own understanding, how can GOD fill us up? It is impossible! Matt.18:1-5"
I wish to point out that it appears that christians try to make God and the world conform to what they wish to believe. If someone believes that the world was created six thousand years ago, they will go to great lengths to force the world to fit into their mental box. And once that box is full, it is locked and sealed and the box's owner will typically refuse to modify it, except to make it seem more real.
For those of us who are former members of christianity, but still spiritual seekers, we can see that even if we believe God exists (such as myself), we cannot know what God is really like. We can have ideas and theories about God, but ultimitly, God is simply too big and above human understandings.
The christian bible is a good example of people trying to fit God into a box that they can understand. When you try to confine God to a box, you have created a graven image of God because if God is constantly expanding, evolving and becoming MORE, then the box, the image you have is a false god.
You cannot, no matter how hard you want to believe it, confine God to a box. You cannot confine God to a religion. An omnipresent, omnipotent creator is not human, is above human understanding and does almost certainly have human failings such as hate, anger, jealously, etc.
Perhaps God is trying to get through to people such as followers of the christian faith, but if your own idea of God is locked in a box and you refuse to even look at anything different, how can God possibly get through to you? If we are full of our own ideas about God and our own understandings of God, then it is correct that God cannot change us because we refuse something new. We want to cling to that which is comfortable, old and stable...but refusing to change and grow will inevitably kill you.
In life, as well as being a spiritual seeker, it is a good idea to have an open mind. Truth can be found in many places and in many theologies and philosophies. If God wished to help all peoples, then it would seem logical to send many ideas to different cultures in many different forms.
"What I also do not understand is the term you use "ex-Christian". How can you be an ex-Christian? I can understand how you can be an ex-churchgoer, an ex-Bible-reader, or an ex-praying person. But it is impossible to be an ex-Christian/believer. Jesus said that those who decide to leave the flock or turn their backs on the flock (such as yourselves) were actually never part OF the flock ("among" us, but never "with" us). Just b/c you went to church or "prayed the prayer" without ever believing in your heart that Jesus is the Christ, doesn't make you a Christian. It's almost like saying that standing in a garage makes you a car! However, it is interesting to know that Jesus is still on the lookout to save those who were never of His flock. John 10:14-18 And those of you members of this website who are still part of the flock, please listen when you hear Him call."
Looking back on my time in christianity, I now see it as the stepping stone, or foundation, for my spiritual seeking. It was the first rung on the ladder, preschool, if you will. Once you're done with preschool, you continue on with your growth and education. It is no different for a spiritual seeker. You stay in an organized religion for it's guidance, but there comes a point where you are ready to head out on your own because you no longer need the constant hand of the religion pointing the way.
We can all say that we are ex-children, ex-preschoolers, etc. It IS possible to be an ex-christian. It is possible that the spirit can lead you in a different direction away from organized religion where you can use your gifts and talents for the best of others, and where you can grow the most.
Dominique? Dominique? Honey are you there? Dominique? Can you hear me now? Can you hear me now? Dominique?
(Strange, the ensuing silence. A hit and run, with, of course, a report to pastor for pats on the head. Ignorant, like I once was. And, Dominique, if you're lurking but not responding, for the record I dropped very real tears over the fact that my beautiful, kind mother would be burning in hell. I too was on your page, until it became too moldy to sustain me.)
And Boomslang, excellent post. Great analogy. Thanks. -Barb
What a laughable post. What some people will do to try to convince others of their baseless assertions. Primitive beliefs and magical thinking are hard things to toss aside when they are indoctrinated at an early age. The poster tries to validate Christianity when the very basis of a god belief itself is unsubstantiated. The carrot, the stick and the short circuit, that is the basis of religion. When one questions them all believers have left is the short circuit... to say we can't know the mind of the god character, to invalidate the reasoning process all together. The cult mind is a curious thing indeed.
Interesting site!
It stirs a lot of interest, one way or another. Our Destiny depends on what we are 'brought' to believe.
Basically, the only 'rule' book we have that tells us about Spiritual Life and the hereafter; is our guidepost...the Bible! Man-made ideas do not satisfy ourselves, as to what our Destiny is.
More recently, Code-investigators have used computers to examine spacings between letters in the Old Testament TORAH (Tora), of 7, 50, 172 or other spacings; to verify that the first 5 books of Moses are authentic and unique!
They were indeed astonished when the first two of the books spelled out 'Tora' and the last two spelled it out backwards! The middle book (Leviticus) spelled out "Yahweh!" It's as if the two end books were pointing to the middle book with the name: "God of the Hebrews!" At least that's what science has found out about God so far.
They have not been able to find things of this nature repeatedly in any other book! So, there is some 'definite' strangeness to the Biblical Books; in that God had 'authored' the Bible through the minds of men!
The Hebrews were told that if they made one mistake in copying the exact letter on a page, that page was to be discarded. So, exact copies were passed down to us over the centuries.
The Bible explains that we must be first "Chosen" to come to Christ (Eph. 1:4; John 15:16). Next, to be "Called" to come to Christ (Rom. 9:8). Finally, to be "Enabled" by Christ Himself, to enter into His Kingdom and be saved forevermore (1 Tim. 1:12)! We DO NOT come into 'salvation' by ourselves; God has to be in it for ALL three of these.
In the last Book of the Bible, the Revelation (Apocalyse), the last Chapter of the New Testament (Chapt. 22), and almost the last verse (vs. 11); it explains that at the end of the world as we know it, there will STILL be TWO LOST (the UNjustified-UNchosen, and the Filthy-UNchosen). But in that same verse, there at the end of time will be TWO TYPES 'SAVED' (the Righteous, and the Holy).
Why are those first two still LOST and never able to LIVE with God in the future?
Ahhhh! It's that they have NOT been "Enabled" by Jesus to believe and receive Him. It is HE that is the 'qualifier', not us! Only those so "Enabled" by Christ, as was done to the one repentant thief on his cross alongside Jesus, will be able to believe and receive Christ into his/her life (like the Righteous, and the Holy ones).
There's MORE evidence that the Bible is true, and dictated by God throughout; in the following...
DID YOU KNOW THAT YOU CAN ACTUALLY READ "CODES" RIGHT OUT OF YOUR OWN BIBLE, that "CONTROL" your Destiny?
See the "CHOSEN"CODE and "COLOR"Code; VISIT:
http://quadcode.blogspot.com !
Save or Print it to study.
HAVE A MUCH MORE "BRIGHTER" FUTURE!
Looking back on my time in christianity, I now see it as the stepping stone, or foundation, for my spiritual seeking. It was the first rung on the ladder, preschool, if you will. Once you're done with preschool, you continue on with your growth and education. It is no different for a spiritual seeker. You stay in an organized religion for it's guidance, but there comes a point where you are ready to head out on your own because you no longer need the constant hand of the religion pointing the way.
We can all say that we are ex-children, ex-preschoolers, etc. It IS possible to be an ex-christian. It is possible that the spirit can lead you in a different direction away from organized religion where you can use your gifts and talents for the best of others, and where you can grow the most. - END OF QUOTE
This was an excellent response. The original poster lost me when he tried to get me "back" by saying we have to come to God like a "child". This is a simplistic way of saying..."don't trust your mind". That's all it says. Give up your intellect and just "believe".
I cannot do this. I had to give up believing in Christianity precisely BECAUSE of this problem. I couldn't get past the inconsistencies I realized were built into Christianity and trying to reconcile a loving God and the "reality" of an eternal torment torture chamber called Hell. I cannot accept a God on these terms. I'm sorry.
Whenever I hear about the threat of Hell for not following Christ completely loses me and it disgusts me that even the Catholic Church under the new Benedict pope reaffirmed the reality of this sadistic torture chamber. No. No more and goodbye to all that. I agree with the poster who responded with the idea that if God DOES exist...He/She (yes, I said She as well)and God is Love...then it means Jews murdered under Hitler's reign of terror are NOT burning in Hell. It's as simple as that. God is LOVE and Jewish people who did NOT accept Christ are not in Hell. That would be the ultimate example of a truely loving God. But since Christianity puts conditions on God's "love"...then it means anyone who does NOT believe in Christ as the Son of God...gets to be thrown in Hell. Therefore as you read this...the 6 million or so more Jews who were brutally butchered, gassed and shot over 4 years during WW 2 are now suffering unending indescribable torment. This sick logical conclusion based on believing in the tenets of Christianity alone makes me shudder at the horror of this "God". I cannot accept this kind of God of "love". It's funny...because whenever Christians hear me say this...they immediately deny such a scenario and claim "of course not. That's not what God does and Jews are in Heaven." Interesting how Christians are able to contradict their own beliefs when they're confronted with the brutal reality of their beliefs and simply can't absorb the ugly reality.
Rudy....
You can do the same thing with Moby Dick, Lord of the Rings, or any other big book.
I think Rudy and Marc would get along great!
So, you kinda like the idea of Jesus dying for you so you can be save from the fires of hell, which god created in the first place and plans to burn us all by default? That is, unless of course you accept his son that he allowed to be tortured and die so that he will not burn you forever on the same crap that he himself created.
Kinda like also, if someone releases a virus that will kill all of mankind, but also the same person that handles to you the anti-virus that will save you if you accept it and worship him?
You kinda like that idea ha? Where's the logic in that?
What is this I cannot be called an Ex-Christian since I'm not a christian in the first place? What? I cannot be an Ex-Christian if I was a muslim before or a buddist or hindu believer. I would call myself an Ex-Muslim for that matter. But since I was once a believer in Christianity , prayed with all my heart, do services in church, how would you know really that I was not convinced before that my religion is the true one?
Then what about the "False Christians" ? As you are thinking you are a "True Christian" and the other churches are teaching false christianity. If you are a born-again, for ex. so the Catholics are false christians? Since they are not real christians like yourself, then what are they? Some people sitting on the church thinking they are christians which they are not by your logic like someone in the garage thinks his a car? What?
Are you going to acknowledge them as false christians? Because if you don't then there's only one left to call them. True Christians. They are either true or false. One cannot be the other. So therefore, if you are the true christian then those who don't belong to the same church or believe as you do must be FALSE christians.
Now think! If you accept there are false christians, then how come you think its impossible to be an ex-christian when we can conclude that the ex-christians are the same false christians you have acknowledge? The only difference is we don't believe anymore. But we were once Christians, only false once I think.
Rudy said:
"More recently, Code-investigators have used computers to examine spacings between letters in the Old Testament TORAH (Tora), of 7, 50, 172 or other spacings; to verify that the first 5 books of Moses are authentic and unique!"
Well OF COURSE the spacings between letters in the OT are going to be unique to other books! What were you expecting.... that they would match up to the same spacings in between letters in a comparison to "Old Yeller"?? LMAO!!
WOW! good grief. i posted the comment today, but i didn't expect all of these comments so soon.
please understand that i was never trying to insult anyone personally and i do apologize to those of you who thought i was trying to be mean or condescending. once again, i am sorry for making it seem as though i were belittling your feelings and i know you take them seriously. i didn't want to come across that way, although to many of you i did. i firmly believe that Jesus of Nazareth, is the Christ and exactly who He claimed to be. John 14:6
i do have to say, though, that i find all of these comments interesting. in my long life, i've noticed that as soon as people mention the name "Jesus",in any setting, people who don't believe in Him are immediately uncomfortable or angry or suddenly very,very quiet (obviously not you guys!). and, frankly, i don't believe it has anything to do with the history of the Catholic/Protestant organization (notice i didn't say "Christian church"), which shows you what can happen when men/women take GOD and make of Him what they want. I firmly believe it is because of the effect and the power behind that name. people (such as yourselves) either deliberately ignore it, or get angry and insult it (just as yourselves). Mark 6:3
I understand that to many of you who have never believed, the things i write are childish and awful. in fact, a couple of you who say that Christians are the demeaning ones were ready to jump down my throat (metaphorically speaking, of course) and were very insulting. you could have disagreed respectfully, but instead chose to write very harsh comments.
however, i must say the Bible speaks of this. when Paul went to Athens, he spoke about Jesus to the Athenians in a respectable way. many of them didn't believe, many of them scoffed. however, others did come to believe. Acts 17:16-34
The Bible is clear, that to those who don't believe, Jesus' claims and people's belief in Him are considered foolishness. But to those who do believe, it is the "power of GOD". 1 Corinthians 1:23-24
from some of the comments i read some people say that it is possible to lose one's salvation based on rejection of the faith. and those who say that their leading people to Jesus means the people they led are not lost. we must understand that belief in Jesus is a matter of an individual believing. GOD knows who belong to Him and once we are His, that hold cannot be severed. Meaning (and i mean this as honestly and as respectfully as i can), that once you are Christian, you cannot be separated from that. I John 2:18-27; Matt.7:21-27; II Cor.5:17-20; Romans 8:29-32,35,38-39
I was a Christian; now I'm not; hence Ex-Christian. Any more dumb questions, Dom?
BTW, I've been an Ex-Christian since I was 17; now I'm 52 -- so no, it's not a passing phase.
I have a Bible Code program that supposedly reads ''hidden'' codes within the Hebrew texts (which texts, Rudy, which texts???). Guess what I found! When I punch in the code to read every 5th letter going diagonal, up, then down, and then skipping every odd integer by its square root....guess what I get!!! It says, no lies, "Rudy Wellsand is a jackass". See, the Bible IS true. Praise be unto Jeebus! All the rest of you, burn in hell!!!
You know what... He has a point. I mean, if Christianity is a load of crap now - it was a load of crap then. The only thing that really changed was my ability to grasp the truth - and the truth is, if there is a god, he isn't particularly interested in us.
Yes, I "believed in my heart" and truly chased after christ. Yes, I am one of those with a "background" of bible college, full time ministry, etc. I wanted it to be true - I hoped and prayed that it was.
But it wasn't.
It wasn't true then - just the same as it is not true now.
You don't know me - and twisting the scripture doesn't change that. I can live with you judging me, because I don't care. But can you live with placing yourself as judge over us? It is a fairly high seat you are claiming - sitting right on the lap of your paper messiah and telling him who has what in their heart...
Personally, I'd shutter at that sort of responsibility.
But I do think that maybe you have a point. I am not an "ex-christian" - I am an "ex-dumbass".
I like that better anyway.
Poster wrote:
"When Jesus the Christ was speaking to people who questioned Him ..., He knew what was in their hearts. He understood those who came to Him looking for Him (the Truth) and He also understood those who came looking to make a point of their own;"
Lorena says:
Well, perhaps your mythological Jesus did understand people, though I doubt it.
What I know for sure is that you, Christians, walk around feeling better that the rest of us as though you were Jesus. Problem is that you, Christians, don't understand anyone, don't care for anyone, and don't know what's in anyone's hearts.
Shame on you self-righteous hypocrites.
Rudy Wellsand: Your theory is a joke. If you had actually read any skeptic material on this you would have found out that the same type of "code" examination was done on Moby Dick, Mein Kampf and many other books. The fact is that using different algorithms any book can be made to say many things. It's just a statistical likelyness. So stop being so amazed at this code rubbish.
I still won't accept a God who condemns anyone to an eternal torture chamber if we don't "believe" in Christ. This is not a god by any means. This is a tyrant. You don't want to see this? Not my problem. You simply don't want to open your eyes.
You were brought up to believe in God and chose to believe in Christ. Therefore you're saved. Whoopie! You're "saved". But...you had to LEARN about Christ in order to know this. Otherwise it shouldn't even matter whether you believe in Christ or not since if you really do believe God "loves" you...then it shouldn't matter if you don't know him OR if you DON'T believe in Christ or his "good news".
This would certainly be the case with the BILLIONS of people born into cultures and faiths which DENY any acknowledgment of Christ as the ONE true GOD.
But...your religion and "faith" which demands you come to your CHRISTIAN God like a "child" says...unless THOSE people change their ways and accept Christ...they're doomed and will face everlasting torment in hell forever and ever.
It is this belief about YOUR "God" and his "love" that I refuse to accept. This is NOT God. Certainly not a loving God. Your belief system is disgusting and horrible. People who DON'T believe in YOUR God can still live humane lives with dignity and respect.
Dominique said...
...as soon as people mention the name "Jesus",in any setting, people who don't believe in Him are immediately uncomfortable or angry or suddenly very,very quiet
Other names elicit reactions similar to your list, not just Christ. But really, I cant say much about Allah or Rah. I've never been put to shame by my own family by these names. But 'Jesus'? oh yeah. and your post makes my point clear about Christians.
if you had said your argument in a manner that displayed credible evidence, people would have given you more respect instead of asking us to intentionally be stupid. YOUR ASKING US TO BE STUPID!!! SO NO! Obviously thats a wrong mindset. Once is enough, and not now, not ever again.
Our anger is not because Jesus was mentioned, but because of your thick skull. its frustrating! In fact, no body here hates jesus or god ( how can you hate something that doesn't exist??). Sure we make fun of these characters but only because you put so much value on them at the expense of being SANE.
Dominique,
You honestly don't see how condescending your original post was? You can't even allow that people once wholeheartedly believed the same Christian tenets that you did, and were once sincere believers in every respect. I'm guessing that you never read any of the testimonies here, or perhaps you simply disregarded them as lies.
You also imply that we were driven by some unseemly motive, rather than simply trying to figure things out as best we can--which is all anybody can do, really. I often ask this question of Christian visitors, and truly hope you will answer: Do you deem it possible for an intelligent, educated, and honest person to examine the evidence for your religion (i.e. historical, scientific, whatever), and reach a conclusion that is different from your own? From what you've written thus far, it does not appear so, but please do set me straight if I'm wrong about that.
Also, I'm curious as to whether you've studied the history of your own religion, or the histories of the other major religions. Do you understand the process by which the Bible came to be? You see, many of us here have done those things. Many of us have studied your religion extensively. It's one way to see that the Bible is an invention of a bronze-age society, not an all-knowing deity. That's why your quoting of the Bible here is precisely as meaningful as us quoting the Koran to you. Do you see that?
Have a nice day.
Dom,
Jesus never existed. Therefore, he never said anything. Abraham has about as much historical validity as King Arthur, and most of the same purposes as the unifying cultural icon of the Britons.
The Bible is a confabulation.
Working definition of an ex-Christian: a person who once believed a load of bullshit about Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit, but has since demonstrated enough intellectual integrity and humility to admit (often at significant personal cost) that he or she was wrong and had believed a lie.
Dom & Preston,
Would you agree that the Bible God is portrayed as a malevolent genocidal maniac? I am sanguine you will agree once you have read, say, the first five books of the Old Testament. Why would anyone want to believe in this God is a mystery. Deep-seated belief, ingrained since childhood, prejudice, an inability to see the forest for the trees, etc?
Okay, so here's the thing Dominique:
If I was never a "real" Christian, as you propose, than I suppose the sixteen years I spent believing were a complete waste of time, since I was never saved in the first place. So my concern with living a Godly life, my conviction over sin, my witnessing to the "heathen", my longing to go into the missions field, the years I brought my children up from birth to believe in your man-god, the hours spent in church, the bible studies, bible reading, censoring of "sinful" entertainment, memorization of scripture, prayers for a christian husband, and time spent defending the faith were all just vain attempts on my part since I never really believed in the first place?
Are you fucking serious?!?
Now, if a formerly devout Muslim were to convert to your faith, you would be sure to use him as an example for your cause. You would never doubt his once-sincere devotion to Allah, and would use his former faith as ammo. You would most certainly consider him an EX-MUSLIM. You would be awed at the stories of his former daily worship, prayer, and time spent reading his Koran. Why is it that you find it impossible to apply the same standards to a person who claims a once-sincere devotion to Bible God and Jesus? Are you so ignorant?
Have you not found out at your age what the rest of us discovered sometime ago? That your religion is a HOAX on the grandest scale? You mean you failed to research the origins of your faith and the corruption of Rome on the Christian faith? Do you mean to tell me that you were unaware of the pagan roots of your religion and the many dying saviors, born of virgins that have been worshipped around the world? Oh come now, child, surely you jest! How did you miss reading about the influence the surrounding neighbors had on early Hebrew belief? And please don't tell me you have failed to notice the endless contradictions and absurdities in the Bible. You must have been too distracted by all of the atrocious commands given by Yahweh, the Hebrew God of War to notice all of the other glaring problems to be found within your "holy" text.
It's time for you to grow up Dominique. Your Bible says that you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. I challenge you to pray to your God for the truth. Begin reading the Bible with an unbiased view of scripture and ask yourself if you would worship ANY OTHER GOD who ordered the slaughter of innocent children. You find yourself appalled by the inhumane acts inflicted upon your Christian martyrs? How about rereading your text and asking God just what it was about those little foreigner children that angered Yahweh so much, and just why their punishment had to include being dashed upon the rocks. Ask yourself, and god while you're at it, just why it was okay for the Israelites to take for themselves the heathen virgins (that would include very young girls) for themselves when the rest of the nation was considered unclean? Try to rationalize away why God thought it necessary to stop the sun in the sky so that the Israelites would succeed in battle, when we all know that the Sun doesn't FUCKING MOVE!!!
That's just for starters. Come back when you've looked into all of these issues. If you have some valid arguments for each, I might consider crawling back to the fold. Don't count on it though, that whole Hell doctrine just doesn't sit well with me. That reminds me...research the origins on THAT doctrine too and just why it doesn't appear in the Bible until the end of the OT? Find out just what the Hebrews really believed about death and the hereafter, and when a belief in Heaven and Hell actually began for the Israelites.
If you have time, please find out for yourself how the "rapture" doctrine was not preached until the 1800's, how pagan your holidays and sabbaths are, and try obtaining for yourself a copy of the Apocrypha, a collection of books that were not included in the Bible for no good fucking reason despite the fact that they were found in the same caves of Qumran that the rest of the OT was found, but somehow mysteriously failed to make the cut. I have a copy if you'd like me to send it to you. I would also suggest reading a few of those heretic "gnostic" gospels just for shits and giggles. Of course you don't have to take them seriously since they don't say Jesus is God and all. I mean, the writers of THOSE books claimed to be eyewitnesses to the life of Jesus too, but we all know that if they don't claim Jesus to be God, then they HAVE to be lying, since they didn't agree with the Nicene Council, which just happens to be THE final word in anything spiritual!
Dom, STUPID SHOULD HURT!! Your ignorance of your scriptures and the origins of your faith astound me. If you are going to fight the good fight of faith, you need to do some physical training first. DO NOT, for your own safety, step into the ring with seasoned fighters or you will get your ass kicked!
So I think the only people we can agree with are Fred and Shirley Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka Kansas. (Look them up on Wikipedia).
Most Christians say that they have a loving, caring god, but many of us that post to this blog tend to say the god of the bible is complete jerk - if you actually read the bible that is and think about the whole hell thing.
Well Fred and his family seem to be the only christians that agree with us. They also say god is a complete jerk, that he hates fags and all other evil doers, which includes pretty much all of mankind, and that he is sending them all to hell, and that he gets his jollies by doing so.
Here is a nice quote from them. "The Lord God Almighty killed [the people who died on 9/11], looked at them in the face, laughed and mocked at each one of them as he cast each one of them into hell".
Nice folks! And they have a god that matches.
Anyway we can take solace that there is at least one group of christians that actually reads the bible and agrees with us on the true nature of the bible god.
Nvrgoingbk
That's the kind of rebuttal I would love to hear.
If Dom is serious in her beliefs she should do research on those points you raised, and those of others raised in response to her initial post, and then revert.
Dominique A wrote:
"Christianity in and of itself asks us to come to GOD like a child. Jesus said it first. If we come to GOD, full of our own understanding and ready and willing to fit Him into our own little box, how can He teach us? If we are already full of ourselves and our own understanding, how can GOD fill us up? It is impossible! Matt.18:1-5"
dano asks:
Isn't this pretty much the way all cults work? Koresh, and Jones, and Applewhite, and all of the central figures of cults, attempted to establish themselves as the one and only source of the truth. They all do it. Every religious leader since man started to invent religions, has done it that way. ("God has chosen me to be the absolute source of all wisdom and everything else you will need to go get to heaven. Everything you thought you knew before you came to me is trash. Throw it out and follow me")
Dan
You start from a supposition that Jesus was an actual historical person, that there is a god and that the book called the bible is a book of fact. We don't start from that supposition, therefore, don't follow your path.
There are no gods. Get over it and get a life.
Jim Earl
Dominique,
I spent 36 years in a fundamental, bible-believing, evangelical christian group. It was very difficult to face the truth of my life, of how much time I wasted. I left BECAUSE I 'studied to show myself approved". I sought, I prayed, I wrestled with the 'truth" of the word. I thought that, just like you stated, that I was never really saved in the first place. I mean, I was only 5 years old when I made a public confirmation of my faith and was baptized in the baptist church. I tried again. I prayed and accepted Jesus...again. I sought him and suppressed my doubt. I loved God and the church. I gave my life to it. My husband was a music minister for years, we were leaders in the church. We hosted and taught, many bible studies. Our then young children knew their bible verses. They knew Jesus loved them and they were homeschooled to limit worldly anti-christian influence. I continued to pray for and seek truth. I prayed that I would not be afraid of any truth, but that God would reveal truth to me. I believed that any doubts or questions I had, if they were asked humbly and honestly, could be handled by God. I read a book by "Bob George" about grace that changed my life in christianity for awhile. I believed I was covered by the blood of Christ and therefore completely innocent in the sight of the Lord. That accepting Jesus brought you back to the garden of eden, brought you back to the choice that Adam and Eve were faced with. I thought that was the epitomy of Christ's love for us. He paid the high cost to allow us to go back to innocence. That's the only way into Heaven, complete innocence. God cannot allow any sin into his perfect world.
Then 9/11 occured. These people that attacked thousands of innocent people, acted as if they lived in the Old Testament. They killed for god! They acted like the "chosen people" who went into a city and obliterated it in God's name. They (in their minds) fight a holy war. I revisited the Old Testament again. I read to remind myself that my God was different from this horrible god of the terrorists. Sadly, he wasn't different. Who is this God, really, who demands perfection from his imperfect creation? Who is this God who ordered whole cities, including women and children to be slaughtered to keep his chosen people pure? Why is my God any different from that of the terrorists that I abhore and fear? Why would I want to serve a God so cruel who demands the shedding and death of innocent beings to appease his wrath? Who is this god who plays with satan to tease Job and kill off all his family? (but he gave him another family, isn't that nice?!) What about poor Abraham who thought he had to give up his only son. He was willing to kill his own son in the name of this fearsome god. (ooohhh, but god gave him a clean, spotless, white ram to slaughter in his place...what a loving thing to do!) I decided that even if it meant giving up heaven, I could not serve this god any longer. He is cruel and illogical, like a mean-spirited spoiled brat. My husband came around, and we started to un-teach our children. We lost most of our old christian friends - they didn't like the questioning. We, of course, left the church and it's tenants and set out on our own. It's lonely at times, my extended family are all very christian still. One of my nephews is working on his doctrite in theology and one of my brother-in-law's works as a church planter/consultant for a evangelical christian denomination.
I'm not asking you to believe as I do. I've learned that there are no facts that will change your mind. You can always believe that you can't expect to fully understand god's ways. "The wisdom of this world is foolishness with god". That's the pat answer to everything in christianity that doesn't make sense. I'm asking that you not assume that you understand ME. This life I have chosen now was not chosen lightly. It was a long, difficult process. If I could, I would remain a christian. I was popular and respected in my circle. But, I can't live a lie. I know all the words, but I can't speak them with a straight face anymore!
If truly, I was never a "called Christian", well, that's even crueler. I believed the bible. I believed that "for god so loved the world.... that whosoever believeth on him shall not perish, but have everlasting life".... I believed that! I lived that, I taught that. I called upon the name of the lord "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved". I guess I'm the Esau of the family. (god loved jacob, hated esau...)
I challenge you to seek Truth. If god is truth, there is no reason to fear seeking it. Open your mind to the truth of god. Seek it with all your heart. "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth".
I didn't intend to write this much. I could go on and on and bore you even more with my life's details, but I'll stop here.
Give truth a chance.
Laura
Dom,
I thought that I had a personal relationship with jesus. I prayed to him and I even thought that he answered my prayers. I thought he spoke to me in a still and small voice. Then when my life was turned upside-down, I turned to him for strength. I prayed that he would give me that peace in my heart and mind that he spoke of in the bible. I prayed he would guide me and my actions could bring about abundant joy and peace. And I waited...and prayed...waited...prayedsome more.
Then decades later I found myself in turmoil over a situation that never got better after asking jesus for help. What I mean to say is I was looking at insanity or worse. Emotional trama that never goes away will eventually drive a person mad if not dealt with properly. I believed The proper way was to turn to christ. When my pain did not cease and only got worse and worse even after years of prayer, did I finally relize that jesus couldn't help,god couldn't help because They either don't exist or they don't give a rats ass about me. For a while I thought it was the latter of the two. It made me want to please him even more. But it still didn't help me heal my pain, it made me feel even more worthless. So eventually after getting profesional help I was able to make a profound small step to being free of a burden that wasn't even mine. I did it with a little help from a rational careing real live person who had no faith in god. That still small voice is still there, I call him my concious.
So, Dom, tell me why did god ignore me? If it was because he was testing me then, being all knowing, he knew I would fail. He also knew it would cause me to turn away from him. Thus sending me to my fiery fate of hell. Is that it? He wanted me to go to hell? The other alturnative was me going insane, and when I say insane,I mean literally out of my mind in an institution and/or suicide.
If god exists then these were the only options. So that is why it made more sense to me that the god of the bible didn't exist.
That is how it is possible to be an exchristian.
I have an idea, if Christians believe that their faith is so strong, they should test it. Mine was obviously tested with the bible and probably other things, such as my mental disorder. I am no longer a christian, and since leaving christianity, I have become a firm supporter of logical thinking. I find Blind Faith to be stupid and dangerous. And to also be an enemy of scientific progress, just look at the current evolution vs creationism/ID battle.
Rudy,
Dominique and preston tried their best, but when it comes to talking crap, you're the champ!
So, you like bible puzzles and word games, do you?
Try this fun game - see if you can match all the verses in the gospels that claim to be direct quotes of prophesies from the Old Testament with the actual Old Testament verses themselves.
Just one important rule to remember - unlike the gospel writers, you're not allowed to cut words out, change them or add anything!
Good luck!
Laura,
That was a tremendous post. Thank you.
If at all possible, could you please contact me directly? You can do so by clicking here.
preston, I am always delighted to hear a xristian hoist his true colors. You call the enemies of your religion "crap", and preston, I think you and your kind were spawned on a stable floor and should be shoveled out with the rest of the shit.
So called prophecy is bullshit. Let's take just a few.
isaiah 7: the mysterious child in verse 14 will be born in King Ahaz' lifetime, as a sign to him personally. It is not a prophecy of jesus.
matthew 2: about jesus being called a nazarene: there is no such prophecy, anywhere.
The so called prophecies, all of them, are just bogus interpretations to make them sound like they talk about jesus.
Along the same lines, google up to a site called "Why jesus Didn't Qualify". This will help you think.
Also try aish.com. There is a feature called "Ask The Rabbi". I have spoken to him several times and he can straighten out your thinking about prophecy, jesus, and any other subject.
About archeology: Look, dodo, we do not deny that these places exist. When the bible says "Egypt" we know that there was a kingdom called Egypt. When the bible says "Babylon" we know that there was a city called Babylon. Some pastor, some bible school dropout, has tricked you into thinking that the bible is god's word just because he can point to some old ruins.
And by the way.........find the Tower of Babel, and I'll admit you have something.
My ancestors were fish, but that beats the hell out of being slopped together by a jew god.
Preston said"
If you really are some kind of bible scholar, than i imagine you are as familiar with the prophetic scriptures as you are with the ones that contradict the supposed "nature of God". Because the fulfillments in the bible are outrageous in number.
Have you seen the historic places that still stand, thousands of years old? People didn't just write a random story, these things actually happened. It's literally set in stone.
When you actually have confronted the evidence with the science hand in hand, then maybe we can discuss theories and your own personal "feelings".
Clearly Dominique here, has come to an intelligent decision. It's very rude of you to infer that he's stupid, when you're the one whose first backboned ancestor was a stupid fish. "
========
Preston , there are monuments to Hercules, Zeus , etc. This doesn't mean they existed or are factual. As to those prophecies you refer do the research and you will find out they are not prophecies in any sort. They were manufactured at a later date. There are Messianic prophecies of which Jesus (if he ever existed) never fullfilled.
preston, it's me again, one of your new mentors. I have undertaken the weary, thankless job of trying to restore your sanity. Actually, I think you've gone around the bend and aint likely to return.
Okay, listen......... Google up to "Isaiah 53 Genuine Prophecy". You will be at one of the essays at Positive Atheism. It is a good read and if you humble yourself and let go of your stubborn pride, it could change your life. Think of it as Viagra for your brain.
@ Carbon Enigma,
I'd be very interested in hearing more from you about your mental disorder and its relation to your abandonment of Christianity. My own eyes were opened to the inconsistency of Christianity in part through experiencing mental disorder—not my own, but a very close friend's.
Christianity may be vaguely harmful to all, but it is absolutely destructive to people with mental disorders, particularly mood disorders. For the schizophrenic, it provides a foundation and environment in which God really can be believed to speak directly to people
For the bipolar or chronic depressive, it provides plenty of opportunities for self-condemnation for thinking dark thoughts and not just taking joy in the Lord, and also a succession of "miraculous healings" as a bipolar transitions from depression to mania, after which point there is of course no need to continue taking the vital medications that it is already often very difficult to get bipolar sufferers to take, ensuring that the bipolar will suffer depression again, only probably hiding it from everyone else the next time, lest they suspect the healing was insensere, and further increasing the likelihood that they will perish from the disorder (bipolar disorder and chronic depression kill one in six of their sufferers, due to the frequent and strong compulsion to commit suicide).
If you'd like to chat with me further on this, my email address is available on my blogger profile, which you can see by clicking on my name.
Hey Kids,
I will freely admit that I am not an exChristian. My subconcious mind would never buy into the bullshit. I tried really really hard, but my inner bullshit detector would not stop. I told people I believed in God/Jesus, but deep down inside I never did.
I wish I was an exChristian who was chalked full of Biblical knowledge, but since I have never read a half a page of the fucking
Bible I learn a lot about it here from people like that Nvrgoingbk chick. That gal knows her shit doesn't she?
NGB I loved it when you made the point that the sun doesn't move. It reminds me of a line from one of my favorite songs, Do You Realize, by The Flaming Lips.
"You realize the sun don't go down it's just an illusion caused by world spinning round."
xrayman
Hello all,
I have been enjoying all the great comments about this post! I don't have much to add, but that tomorrow, May 3, is National Day of Reason, and thought Dominique and Preston might just take the day to perhaps go find their senses they took leave of! As for poor old Rudy, he's too far gone and needs some serious meds.
HAPPY DAY OF REASON TO ALL OF YOU HEATHEN FREETHINKERS OUT THERE!!! :)
"in my long life, i've noticed that as soon as people mention the name "Jesus",in any setting, people who don't believe in Him are immediately uncomfortable or angry or suddenly very,very quiet (obviously not you guys!). and, frankly, i don't believe it has anything to do with the history of the Catholic/Protestant organization (notice i didn't say "Christian church"), which shows you what can happen when men/women take GOD and make of Him what they want. I firmly believe it is because of the effect and the power behind that name. people (such as yourselves) either deliberately ignore it, or get angry and insult it (just as yourselves). Mark 6:3" quote dominique
wow, such tunnel vision. It never ceases to amaze me how easily one convinces oneself of something in order to validate a system of beliefs that their life is built on.
It's exactly like a house of card. And while most of the posters on this website do not seem to mind toppling this deck of cards, examining the supports, seeing and digging into what is underneath, and tossing out the ones that do not pass inspection. And then just when they think they've got it, they are willing to adapt when the wrecking ball of new knowledge comes and destroys portions of it all over again.
But you Dominique, your house of cards you are unwilling to destroy. As you've said, your house has been around a long time, a true balancing act, each additional card must balance on the ones below it no matter how precarious its new position. You foundations may be weak, but they've never been closely examined. In fact, it may prove much too dangerous to do so. That's a lot of card that could conceivably come tumbling down.
It's funny almost that you attribute such "power" to the name of jesus. Those hispanics with the same name must bring must power to bear indeed.
The problem with many christians is that the world is so black and white, wrong or right, that their minds are so rigid in their thinking that they are unable to entertain or even imagine that there is any other way to see things.
When people become very silent at the mention of jesus, or christ or any related christianity beliefs, have you ever thought possibly that they may be afraid to offend you. Especially if they know you have been a christian, possibly a very devout one all your life. Your beliefs are firm. They do not want to challenge you (few people are out looking for a confrontation in their every day lives, in the supermarket, at a party or a dinner). Perhaps they do not want to risk causing you to question your faith or even destroy it thus causing you possibly unnecessary pain and suffering. They may leave you unchallenged out of respect for your age or position.
Or they may become silent because they are not interested in being prostyletized to, knowing from past experiences with christians that if they disagree, agree or show any sign of anything, they may not be able to politely shut up the religious fervor that may decend upon them.
Never having been religious myself, and not of the confrontational sort, I find usually silence can be a clear signal that says, "I'm not particularly interested in discussing that, please change the subject"
As an atheist who has never been tainted by christianity, most believe in respecting others beliefs and not imposing one's own. That is often why many people will stay silent and not voice their thoughts which may run along the lines of "oh, god, not another one", or "here we go again, what's she going to thank jesus for doing this time? i hope she's not going to try to barrage me with bible/christian crap!" and "maybe if i don't say anything, she'll realize i'm not interested and change the topic. I don't particularly want to offend my aquaintence/new friend/stranger/passerby/etc"
Most of the time, when interacting with people who are not close friends, I'm not interested in pushing my non-religious views on others. I don't start raving about things like "God is just a human contruct", "There's no jesus", "religion is just ritualized superstition" or "death cults" and other cults like scientology, mormonism, etc, etc. It's just not something you generally do in polite company. Just as I would not like someone to start going on about their faith and beliefs in christian/mormon/muslim/buhddist/wiccan/scientology/greek/alien abductions, I do not impose my own beliefs about using reason/logic/science/knowledge/psychology, my lack of beliefs, nor my stance on the ridiculous of some religions.
In the rare case when I have blurted out something may be construed as offensive or not in taste to someone religious, their response has usually been silence. Do I interpret this as the power of "Richard Dawkins" if I bring up his books? Or the power of the word "superstitious crap"? Or any of the other things that will often only be responded to with silence and/or anger by someone I may have possibly offended?? Of course not! Not unless I was an extremely self-centered, egotistical, narrow-minded fool. To think that "ah ha! I have struck them dumb with the power of the name of Richard Dawkins/Darwin/Jesus Fucking Christ!" I have the power!
umm.. is it not more likely I have inadverdantly or purposefully offended the other party? To think otherwise would be a lack of any social sense or empathy for the other person.
Try stepping into the shoes of the people you interact it for once. Hard as it may be, try to see and believe things from their perspective and think.. maybe, just maybe you may have said something they may find offensive. You may not know or even be able to guess the reasons or their past which causes them to be offended. But in general I think most people will agree that a response of silence or anger to something you've said is not a positive sign.
If you try to reinforce your world view by fitting everything with what you want to believe, then you are at a disadvantage position. With that sort of tunnel vision, you will be ill prepared when you are blindsided one day by what you've turned yourself off from seeing.
Ever met someone who you've found so obstinate and set in their ways that you can't for the life of you see where they're coming from or how they arrived at viewing the world they now do? Look in the mirror, that may be you some day.
the "Truth" as you call it is subjective and always will be. It will always be your "truth", and not the same truth as others have found. If everyone were to arrive at the same "truth" and there was only one "truth" then this world would be a sad and boring place.
Your "truth" (i put it in quotes because i find the entire concept silly, the word is used too often as a euphanism for too many other things) will always need to be re-examined, analyzed, taken apart then put back together, hopefully better than before. Sometimes it should be tossed out whole-heartedly and built completely from scratch, because only then can you learn something new and perhaps discover a new truth. Really there is only one "truth" - and that is that there is more than one "truth" out there and that it will never be exactly the same for everyone.
So an ex-Christian was never really a Christian in the first place?
Then I propose that an alcoholic-turned-sober was never really an alcoholic to begin with.
And your point is? You're not making any sense.
By the way, I love the post before this, about the alcoholic. ROFL!!!
I found this entertaining, because what you think is the truth, is actually a lie.
OK. I have heard this one before - that if you leave you were not really a christian - but I can't find the verse being referenced. If Jesus did say this, the it looks like the bible contradicts itself. I know, what a shock!
Hebrews 6:4 (NIV) says "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."
So here it is in black and white. The bible itself says it is possible for people to be real christians - as who else gets to share in the Holy Spirit? - and then to fall away.
So if you hear someone say this again. Just point them to Hebrews 6:4 and then show them it is possible to be a real christian and to fall away. Then tell them to leave you alone, since it is impossible for us to be brought back. Just let us go to hell in peace.
But it is impossible to be an ex-Christian/believer.
Really? Then what is an apostate? They're mentioned in your Bible.
We'll wait.
I see no "sense" in God sending Jesus to die for our sins. none what so ever. Should I kill my child because I so love my husband?
nm156 said: " So an ex-Christian was never really a Christian in the first place?
Then I propose that an alcoholic-turned-sober was never really an alcoholic to begin with."
Or, conversely we here are all perpetual recovering xtians. *snigger*
Dang!, Lance & Spirula; I put in all this reading over this thread only to find the 3rd & 4th posts from the end (May.03) making the same point I was gonna make.
Piss me off; who can I take it out on?...
...Rudy[!] wrote:
"...They were indeed astonished when the first two of the books spelled out 'Tora' and the last two spelled it out backwards! The middle book (Leviticus) spelled out `Yahweh!' It's as if the two end books were pointing to the middle book with the name: `God of the Hebrews!' At least that's what science has found out about God so far..."
Oh dear. You know, Rudy, this would actually make something resembling sense if the letters that spelled out the desired phrases were necessary for the paragraphs or chapters to form recognisable text. i.e. without them being where they are, for the rest of the characters in the text to coalesce around, the paragraphs would just look like so much ciphertext waiting to be decrypted. Or if they formed some kind of checksum or hash function, etc. But none of that intimate interoperability, that meshing of form and function, is present in your examples, always assuming they actually exist, of course... How are they different from all those Kennedy/Lincoln coincidences, assuming they are on the up and up? And, if they're not kosher, then that's that --- anyone could have reverse engineered them into the text. And if they'd said, "Da Yahwster just photocopied his celestial butt," is that evidence that that chapter was probably inspired by one of god's drinking buddies? How come these "messages" never contains anything worth hearing? Like that 4 colours are enough to colour any map and not have any two adjacent regions be the same colour? Or that the Earth is a sphere?
There's probably already a one- or two-word name for the type of textual "analysis" you described, of which, not being into the occult, I'm unaware.
Preston wrote:
"...you're the one whose first backboned ancestor was a stupid fish..."
No, that's not how evolution works. The stupid fish remained fish. Humans' ancestors were the less-stupid fish.
I was devout and desperate christian for 12 long and terrfying years.
I did activly believe all the rubbish the preachers fed me.
Denying me my own experience of having been a christian, is a hatefull and sadistic act.
For 12 years I lived on my knees, begging Jesus to forgive me for being a "miserable sinner", and a "worthless and sinfull child of Satan".
I read the bible very day.
I prayed almost constantly.
I wallowed in rightious self loathing and fear.
I no longer believe. I am now an EX-christian. So yes it is quite possible to be an EX-christian.
I think most of our anger at Christianity come from hurt. I said most, not all. Anger is a natural reaction to being duped for many years. Many people I went to Bible college and Seminary with invested a lot in their beliefs. They are not fly by night Christians. I was not a fly by night Christian. I would never doubt that I was not "saved". I struggled many years with acceptance, guilt and shame for not being able to do the things that the bible admonishes us to do. I tried to believe in grace and love. I even thought I'd achieved the idea of resting in Jesus and being free in his grace. In the end I stopped reading the bible, praying and going to church. My christian friends fell away, over time I felt less guilty and eventually I began to think, I mean really think about stuff. I can not go back to the Christian I was. I am not sure where this path is leading, but I can clearly see the brainwashing kind of speak that came out of me in this person's comment about it being impossible to be an ex-christian. I don't ever want to sound like that again. I am not very angry anymore, but I am not totally over feeling duped either. Hopefully one day I will really be able to just except life as it is. In the end no one can prove beyond a doubt that God exists and no one can prove that a God of some sort does not exist. I am mostly content with where I am at today; however I no longer wish to be manipulated by brainwashed people who do not know how to think for themselves. I was one of them and I said the very same things. I believed sincerely and I witnessed to many people with sincerity and compassion. I hope that someday Christians will learn to put reason before belief and not blindly accept what the experts say. Question everything, life is to precious to just believe.
Sincerely,
Bill J.
Anyone else notice that dominique said an unbeliever will either respond negatively to the mention of jesus or they wont respond at all? Notice the bible says both? That leaves no other option of response than to reply positivly as a believer or admirer of jesus either as saviour or at the least, teacher. Either way jesus gets his props. Fuck you and your loopholes bitch. thats a loaded statement you and your bible through out there.It tries to make an argument impossible but we see past it. I can say the same thing about a christian hearing that someone is an atheist. In fact, I will. A christian hearing that someone is an atheist will either respond negatively with attempts at fear or conversion, or will ignore or otherwise overlook the statement of said atheist.
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