Why would anyone want to be an atheist?

I read some of the things that your website said about christians and I know that there are christians that are not smart or make the rest of us look bad and people who think they are christians but are really not. Just because someone says they are a christian and they always go to church does not mean they are a christian. I am a guy and if I joined the girl scouts would that make me a girl? I also know that there are good people who are atheists and I am not trying to be mean to you. I just wonder why you would risk everything like that. Niether can be proven and there are good arguments for both but in the end I would rather go for maybe getting something over definitely at best getting nothing. I do not think I am better than you or that I am going to heaven because I am better than you. I know I am nowhere close to perfect. I dont care if hitler was atheist that would not mean all of you were bad anyways. I am not judging you either I am just saying what I believe that is, believe in God and repent and anyone that does that no matter who they are or what they have done goes to heaven.

I do not understand why anyone would want to be an atheist. If it is true then you will die and thats the end or you could be wrong and go to hell. So you are risking hell for nothing because you believe in nothing and it offers you nothing. Atheism is all risk and no reward. Even if you are right you will not get anything. Are you not worried you might be wrong? You have nothing to gain and everything to lose being an atheist. If you were a christian you will be right and go to heaven or be wrong and nothing happens. You would be risking nothing for an eternity in heaven. If you converted from atheism to christianity and christianity was wrong there still is no risk. It is better to be safe than sorry. Think of how you would feel if it turns out to be true and you know that you blew it for a nothing belief. You cant even imagine how you would feel. If I am wrong I will be dead and never no anyway so I think thats worth a shot. I know you will probably say what if islam is true? Islam thinks that heaven is drinking and orgies. If you are perfect when you go to heaven then you will not be depraved. You cant be blind and see at the same time can you? Also mohamads dead body is still here on earth Jesus is not. And if you still want to throw in Islam to the discussion then that doubles your risk for going to hell because you have to worry about mine and theirs and you still have nothing to gain. I could have a chance of going to islam hell but I also still have a chance of heaven or nothing so I am still in a better position.

No belief or religion can be proven 100% right or wrong and there are thousands of arguments you could try to make for or against atheism and christianity and they do not really prove or disprove anything but you know what I said in the first paragraph is true. You get nothing or hell and that is a big risk for nothing. Especially when you are putting lots of time with the website all for nothing. You must love doing volunteer work.

You think the Bible contradicts but science is always changing and its because it is wrong a lot. I would rather believe in a God I have not seen than believe in what someone said because we all know that people make mistakes and are not reliable and the risk of being wrong is to great.

Your website says that christians are brainwashed by there parents. A lot of christians were not raised in church. You also say that the burden of proof is on christians. Atheists are the ones with the all risk no reward belief. I think that would put the burden of proof on you because most people would rather take a shot at something than a definite nothing. Also if you do not care to prove it to me you should at least be concerned with proving it for yourself because I am sure you would like to be 100 percent sure that there is no chance you could go to hell. Also if atheism is true like you say then atheists would have been the first people on earth until someone made up God so the burdern of proof would be on you.

I talked with an atheist a couple of days ago and he said, "Christianity conflicts with the facts of reality", what facts are those? Nothing created something then that blew up and made earth then earth made monkeys then the monkeys turned into people. That makes no more sense than what I believe. If we came from monkeys they would not still be here. Did the big bang know that we needed air, water, sunlight, food, man and woman to reproduce, gravity so we dont fall of the earth? The only explanation I can think of is that there is a God that knows things I cant comprehend and the laws of our earth do not apply to Him because he created them and because nothing plus nothing equals nothing so the universe never would have happened unless there is a god that knows something I dont. Your house did not build itself did it? Someone had to do it for you and whoever that was they had to know what they were doing otherwise your house would have fallen apart. I think that also apllies to the universe. I think atheists use the bureden of proof argument to try to take peoples attention away from how stupid their beliefs sound. If you think the Bible contradicts then look at 2 Peter chapter 1 verse 20. I do not think you were ever a christian because when you are you are born again, right? Can you unborn yourself?

email: jordant85jor@aol.com

185 comments:

Anonymous said...

What is a Christian? A Christian is a person whose mind is infested with the thoughts of divine wrath, the atonement, and the thought that only Christians shall be pardoned by God. These are a whole set of thoughts that pollute a Christian's mind, causing all sorts of anxiety, mania, and boorish behavior. I would rather have hepatitus than be afflicted with the thought contagion about "divine penalties for wrong," or to have the five letters "J," "E," "S," "U," "S," etched across my brainpan.

You still don't get it -- we are not interested in who is a True Christian, and who ought to be excommunicated and exposed to the operation of God's wrath. We think the whole religion is idiotic.

Now, if you want to believe in a kind of God without the transparent deceptions of the Christian chainletter, then become a Deist, Taoist, or Platonist. Christianity is for people who wish to insult a God who might truly exist and who wish to lobotomize themselves by ruminating through their religious thoughts.

By the way, Hitler was a Christian.

YME said...

If we are going to believe in a god "just in case" shouldn't we start believing in all gods and goddesses? After all, you could be wrong, right? You could die and not go to the christian heaven or hell, it could be an entirely different heaven and hell. It could be that you've been worshiping the wrong god or goddess this whole time and have angered the actual god or goddess.

This argument has been used and abused, btw.

Why would anyone want to be an Atheist? For the mere reason that to live without gods and goddesses is to live without excuses.

If you take the time and question you learn a whole lot and knowledge is power.

Anonymous said...

Do I understand this correctly? I am supposed to simply agree with Christianity for the reward, just in case? How sincere. I think the author makes a good point by saying "I do not understand why anyone would be an atheist". Perhaps an education would help. I can't simply discuss my rational for my system of belief in such an abbreviated form, but I can tell you it was not based on what I had heard, assumed or simply agreed with. You wouldn't see a heart surgeon who only studied one book, you probably wouldn't even go to a mechanic with such a limited education. Why? Because you can't trust them? I cannot believe in what I do not trust, and I certainly do not trust Christianity because of what one book says.

Grace said...

Wow. That was a huge, long, rambling pile of excrement. As if the headache I had from proofreading wasn't bad ENOUGH....

Jesus Christ, man, acquire some basic grammar skills... And some better fragging ARGUMENTS.

Anonymous said...

I understand your logic because I also had the same thoughts as you at one time. I figured even if the bible is wrong I will lead a better life and what could be wrong with that? A LOT I found out. For one thing
a persons mind becomes warped (brainwashed)over time attending church. Logic is one thing a person must loose to be content with the religion. Once they have convinced you to loose your logic you may never be the same again.
Did you ever notice if you watch a scary movie how a noise in the middle of the night can scare you death? All you can identify with is a bad thought and total fear. Whereas had you not seen the movie you might use logic to decide that it sounded like a tin can hitting the floor and you did leave your soda can on the counter top and the cat must have knocked it over. Same sound different outcome.One you used logic for the cause and the other you didn't. Logic is a very important part of us that we need and it protects us as well. The church wants to take logic and thinking from you.

Not everyone on here is an atheist but I can tell you that all are more educated on the subject of christianity then those sitting in the churches.Once you have researched all the facts from both sides there is only one logical choice.
"If you take the red pill you will see how far this rabbit hole goes".

LadySidhe said...

I think that many here are ex-christians not only because they do not believe in God, for whatever reasons they may have, but also because they can't stomach organized religion.

Organized religion tends to be made up of hypocrites (and I'm not necessarily including you in that group. I know many christians who are very good people, and very sincere people who DO practice what they preach--no pun intended), and these hypocrites tend to do the following:

disparage any beliefs other than their own; attempt to shove their beliefs down other peoples' throats; loudly proclaim that those who hold differing beliefs are going to hell (as if they themselves were God and had the right to condemn others); attempt to force their own so-called moral code on others (consider the marriage amendment, which endeavors to remove basic rights from a substantial portion of American citizens, merely because some holy rollers don't agree with their lifestyle choice), and a myriad of other annoying and potentially harmful behaviors (ie, Representative Barr calling for action against pagans in the military, and Missouri attempting to make Christianity the "legal" religion of the state, which would withdraw protection from all other religions, and is blatantly unconstitutional).

These religious zealots are attempting to make their religious beliefs LAW, and thus force them on everyone else, whether everyone else shares their beliefs or not. They desire a theocracy, and when theocracies rule, people lose rights, and people die.

Now if christians would be civilized about their beliefs, and allow others to believe what they wished, if they didn't demand money every time one turned around, if their leaders weren't constantly being arrested for embezzlement and child molestation, if they weren't so hellfire and brimstone and if they didn't rely on threats of violence before and after death to proseletyze, if they didn't rely on guilt to ensure compliance, and if they weren't so hypocritical as a general rule, I don't think so many people would withdraw, or be reluctant to associate with such a belief system.

But when your religion gives you no reason to believe that there is a god, when your religion is a basically violent group, many become disenchanted, disillusioned, and resentful.

For my part, I withdrew from christianity because it didn't make sense to me, its leaders were hypocritical moneygrubbers, it was intolerant, and it attempted to put itself in the place of God when it came to judgment. I also believe that God/dess can come to people in any way S/He wishes, and if that happens to be the Great Spirit or Zeus, who is some televangelist to tell God/dess "NO. You can't do that. You have to be in this little box and You can't appear any other way."

As you may be able to tell, I'm not an athiest, and I'm not an agnostic. While I concede that we believers in a Higher Being may be wrong, I personally wish to believe in something greater than myself. True or not, it gives me a feeling of having a bit of control over my existence, and if it contributes to my mental health, it's a good thing.

But when religion DOESN'T help, when it makes you feel worse about yourself, when it makes you feel constantly guilty for enjoying the life you were given, when it makes you downright unhappy, it's human nature to turn away from a Being who seems so vengeful and jealous and petty. Who would want to believe in something like that, much less devote their lives to it?

I'm not ragging you, so please don't take it that way. If your belief makes your life good, keep it, and don't let anyone take that from you, or shame you into abandoning it. You may be wrong, but if it makes your life better, if it makes you a better person, there's not a damned thing wrong with it.

It's the crazy fundies that most of us refer to when we disparage christianity. So don't take it personally

--unless you're one of those self-righteous crazy fundies who like to go around condemning people to hell, that is...

Steven Bently said...

jordan wrote,

Also mohamads dead body is still here on earth Jesus is not.

Here's one Very fatal flaw in the NT!
Jesus's physical body was gone. Why? If it is the soul that rises to Heaven, the tomb need not be opened.

But the tomb was OPENED!!! WHY???
Because Jesus walked out, thats why, you and millions have fallen for the JESUS HOAX!!!!

There was no need for the tomb to be opened, but yes, it was witnessed by many, the tomb was open. His physical body did not rise to Heaven according to scripture the Body does not rise, it's the soul that rises.

Jesus's physical body should have still been in the tomb, but it was gone!!! Why??? Because Jesus walked out, thats why?


Then you said,
Your house did not build itself did it? Someone had to do it for you and whoever that was they had to know what they were doing otherwise your house would have fallen apart.

Does a church build itself?
Who builts any church? God??? NO it was a MAN! Men build churches, not any God! Who knows how to build a church properly to suit God's requirement for worship??? You Perhaps!!! A man perhaps????

jordan
You've been had, you've been taken, you've bought into the lie of religion, you are the exact type of people that religion is looking for, the guilble, the naive, the fearful, the emotional, the dumbed down, the down trodden, the sheep that want to be led around by their noses.

Keep your damned religion, it's just a belief, that you've allowed to accept as being true, that you've allowed to be stored in your
weak mind. After death, all Gods religions, fairytales, superstitions, beliefs die along with all thoughts, thats it, you go to were you were before you were born, into complete nothingness forever.

And 2ond Peter! men should be so lucky!

Lillith22 said...

You think Hitler was an Athiest...I am so sick and tired of people saying that because my friend he was a devout christian....

"I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Almighty Creator. By fighting the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work."
— Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

"The National Government will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life."
— Adolf Hitler, Berlin, 1933, first radio address after coming to power

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no religious instruction and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . . We need believing people."
— Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordat of 1933

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exposed. [Adolf Hitler, speech on April 12, 1922, published in My New Order

Go to
http://atheism.about.com/library/quotes/bl_q_AHitler.htm

for more quotes from this very obvious christian.

Steven Bently said...

Hitler being labeled as an Atheist, is the blatant lie that preachers love to use to sway people to christianity.

There's a jackass preacher on the radio near here, that says that if it had not been for God sending the pilgrims over here, we would be a communist country now.

And people call in a agree with everything that jackass says.

He says that is why God has Blessed America so much is because of our christian background, tell that to the 50 million Native American Indians that the pilgrims killed and stole all their land.

Shannon said...

We don’t have all the answers. You come in here with the idea that we’ve all stopped searching for a keener understanding of this world. We haven’t.

But you, sir, do not offer answers, what you offer is anti-knowledge.

We don’t fear hell because you can fear something you don’t believe in. In the same way you don’t fear reprisal from Zeus, we don’t fear reprisal from the mythical Christian god.

Anonymous said...

You seem to believe that Christianity and atheism are the only options - further that Christianity is monolithic. Both assumptions are false.

First there are many alternatives to being a Christian if one needs to have God(s) or Goddess(es) in their belief system. It's not a matter of "believe in Jesus or believe in nothing." Many here are atheists, but by definition this website is here to support ex-Christians, not atheists per se. Some here are atheists, some to agnostics and some have embraced other philosophies or other world religions.

Someone already pointed out that you would have to believe in every religion to truly "cover all your bases." This is obviously not possible, because Christianity generally requires you believe only in it to the exclusion of all others. Since most of the other religions generally don’t likewise condemn you for embracing Christianity, it would APPEAR that Christianity is a good choice in terms of “playing it safe.” For example the Buddhists will still let you be reincarnated if your Christian heaven belief proves to be untrue.

HOWEVER you’re not really “playing it safe.” There are literally thousands of Christian denominations and many of them require you to reject not only the other major religions but also the doctrines of other Christian churches. You may still go to hell for getting baptized in the name of Jesus, or getting baptized in the name of the Trinity, or being sprinkled as opposed to immersed in water. You may go to hell for speaking in tongues, or for not speaking in tongues, or for keeping the Sabbath on Saturday instead of Sunday (or vice versa). In short, no matter what brand of Christianity you choose at least one of the others will condemn you to hell. Further, if the doctrine of predestination is true you could be already destined for hell no matter what you do. Gosh, what’s a poor narrow-minded guy to do?

Bill Dearmore said...

Jordan,

It's not always about what one "wants to believe." I might want to believe I have a billion dollars in the bank, but that doesn't make it true. And it wouldn't even mean I honestly believe it.

A reasonable person believes only what makes sense, or that for which there is abundant evidence. One who claims to believe "just in case" hell is real in not a real believer, but a hypoocrite. If your God is real, don't you think He knows the difference?

You ask a lot of questions and make a lot of statements that indicate you are very ignorant about non-Christians. I suggest you read the postings on this site for a few weeks, and you'll learn many of the answers.

myqel said...

Your argument that we should believe "just in case" is a bad one according to your bible.

"Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."

An atheist who would try to believe "just in case" is only fooling themselves. Your god would reject us.

I reject all superstitions.
I will live my life like there was no tomorrow. I will treat all people like I will never see them again.

It does not change my life because I do not believe in an invisible cloud being, but if it makes you feel better ... go for it dude.

Anonymous said...

I have searched for answers and found but one, I have searched for truth and discovered only one, I have longed for life, and I recived it.
No man can ever know all the deep things of this world, no man can ever gain all knowledge or acquire al wisdom. The ancient mysterious of this world are too great for us. Some are too holy, some too sacred, some too evil, some to wonderful. They are beyond us. And God is beyond us, and we are unworthy. And yet...every person of very race has been given this one chance to know God, and to know GOd is life. Nothing compares to the greatness of knowing God. I have searched.

I am sure any one who has sent any amount of time within the Body of Christ has heard that Christianty is not about religion but relationship...with God. Not everyone understands what this means.
There are some angry people who say some pretty angry things on this site about relgion...which is perhpas understandable. They also say some pretty nasty things about about Jesus. And they say they want proof before they will have faith.
It's intresting...because I have it. I have proof inside me. This treasure of mine...this proof this truth. How I wish I could share it with the world but the world will not listen to me. They will not listen to God so why would they listen to me?
Why speak then? Because God is fair and just and in the end we will all agree with that statment.
Why would anyone want to be an Atheist...beacuse it is easier that way.
Searching for God, who is so much higher than us, is hard...cause you can't reach Him on your own steam so you have to hummble yourself and be carried on the wings of his Son. This can be painful to our pride.
But love is not proud. And I love Jesus very much. I love my God. I love knowing him. My pride is nothing.
There are many questions about God and how any of what we teach can be true and how any of it makes sence and I don't want to get into all that...since there is no point. You can't really ever win an argument against a determined oppenent.
But I will say that I have questioned God many times...many, many time, friends.
I have asked the question why?
And in the end I don't know all the "whys" but what I do know is that when a frightend little boy, who was struggling with sin, was attacked by demons in the middle of the night...he called on the name of Jesus and two angels appeared and saved him from the claws that where digging into his chest and the fear that was gripping his soul.
Ha...do you belive that? Was I dreaming? No...I had never been so awake. I'll never forgot those angels. They walked on air, it seemed. One stood close to my bed while the other stood over my brothers, guarding. It was amazing.
And God changed me, he changed me from being a hatful persom, a bigot, a racist...into a loving person. The part of him that's part of me is the only part worth anything. Cause I was a horrible sinner even during my "Christian walk."
But that's because I was not walking with Jesus, I was just walking with religion.
Now beacue I know God I am being changed. I am a different man. Now I care about people.
Why do I have Jesus etched across my brain? Because he's worth it.
When I stopped playing church and started seeking to KNOW God it changed my life. It changed everything. I got my proof.
I got my proof when I held the bleeding wrists of a very depressed fifteen year old girl and told her God loved her...I felt the proof of God's love inside me reaching out to her.
I got my proof when I prayed with a man that nobody loved, who had been abused horribly by catholic priests, a man that was so bitter and angry...I got my proof when I prayed for him with everything that was in me and seen the Spirit of God touched him and seen the freedom pour forth from his weeping eyes.
I got my proof, and I hope you can get yours.
I have seen the dark side of relgion, I have seen that not all is well with the world. But I have also seen that knowing God is the greatest thing in the world and is worth searching for.
If you want proof of God ask him for it and don't stop until you get it. Oh...and he does love you. He loves you. He loves...you. He really does
love
you
still.
And that's all I have to say about that.

blaine said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
blaine said...

I am a Christian and I am also gay, so I am mainly speaking from that perspective.
Articles have been written about me and I have also wrote on my love for minorities [esp. the Blacks during the 60s-70s], the Mafia, syndicate; gangs such as the Crips, Bloods, Gangster Disciples, Latin Kings, Vice Lords. I have talked about my street kids, including a girl of 11 or 12 who would number her "Daddies" one through seven or the 7th grader selling pot to other kids. I was invited to Russia to teach and speak on the "successes" I had. I was even allowed the freedom to share God's love with the Russian Mafia and syndicate. After one speaking engagement a gang member thanked me for, "not giving up on us gang kids".
I would love these people, "my kids", whether I was a Christian or not.
So why all this "braggadocios" stuff? It's because when I would leave the area I was in the local church that was supposed to care and continue to minister to these, my kids, would not for various reasons [not enough time, too dangerous etc but probably the real reason was because they were not seen as a good investment].
Yes, I know that I am guilty of beating this dead horse often, but I get ticked when Christians often claim that another Christian isn't really a Christian because...
Almost all Christians want to distant themselves from Rev. Fred Phelps or those Christians that do certain crimes.
A good friend of mine had his college bound gay cousin beaten to death by two Christians who then threw his lifeless body into a dumpster. These two Christians told the police they threw the gay youth into the dumpster because "that is where trash belongs".
One Christian said if it were legal he would stone me and my gay kids to death. When I would tell some of my groups stories of some of my gay kids-like one who tried to hang himself and later tried to slash his throat because of the ordeal of reparative therapy; or the one who lay under his sheets for three or four weeks with his dad's rifle pointed in his mouth; or about the Christian mother who told her 15 yr. old gay son, "I hope you go to prison and get raped" etc, etc-guess who would offer to write them words of comfort, love and acceptance? It was the atheists, humanists, agnostics and others; not ONE Christian replied to any of my stories, unless I told them in a Christian gay site.
There are some wonderful Christians and Churches that welcome gays openly; however, it is a shallow and felonious argument to say, A true Christian wouldn't do that". I hate that excuse. True Christians have been involved in Crusades that killed millions-"convert or die" etc, they have persecuted and hung blacks,using the Bible to justify their evil acts. they have also used the Bible to deny women the right to vote and today we know they use the Bible to persecute us[gays]. Christians try to distant themselves from the likes of Fred Phelps and his teachings but what he says he backs up with his Christian fundamental beliefs taken out of the Bible. But he shows his hate towards us while other Christians who feel the same remain silent. So we either are spoken evil of openly or silently; but in either case it causes great harm and sometimes death[suicide] to our youth. I am a former pastor who has preached in and visited many fundamental churches and these people are Christians and they believe we are an abomination. If you don't believe me ask the teenagers-one was only 12 whose lives I prevented from committing suicide because of the teachings of true Christians on the issue of homosexuality. As I have often said and written, "the blood of gay youth who took their life will be on the hands of Christians". I told that to the church that recently excluded me and told me to never set foot in it again after my former pastor told my new pastor that I was gay. And this happened even though I have not been unfaithful to my wife of 31 years-I wasn't even looking at porn[I still don't and won't]. I am still a Christian because I see the majesty of my God in the universe He created and because of what Jesus Christ did to me on a cold winter night in 1971.
As far as the Bible, I believe that much of it has been corrupted by the hand of man for control, greed and political motives.
Later my friends,
blaine

truthspeaker said...

We're not risking anything. There is absolutely no reason to believe in any kind of life after death, so what are we risking? Nothing.

Anonymous said...

Becoming religious is not like turning on a lightbulb. You don't just wake up one morning and say, "Gee, from this point on, I'm going to be a Lutherin."

If you've read any of the x-timonies on this sight, jordan, I think you'll see that in pretty much every case the decision to de-convert came only after a lot of studying, seeking and soul searching. We've all dealt with the problems of death, the origins of reality and the possibility (however slight) that the bible is the truth and found that these problems are not nearly as difficult as they may seem.

So why would anyone not want to be a christian? I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I don't see the "win - win" situation that you describe. For me, becoming a christian would mean giving up my ability to make my own choices; to decide for myself what is right and what is wrong. I would lose my self respect, my independence and many of the friendships I have made. I would gain the shame of being a sinner, the arrogance of being blessed with salvation and the constant fear that I might not really be saved at all. I would be obligated to sacrifice my time, effort and money to people and institutions with agendas that I might never be aware of and probably wouldn't agree with if I did.

This is just part of the price I would have to pay to becaome a christian again. And for what? Because there might be a god named Jehovah? Who might have had a son named Jesus? And there might be a place called Hell? And we might be cursed with original sin because two people, who might have lived in a magic garden, might have eaten a magic piece of fruit from a magic tree? And maybe, just maybe, if we believe in the right interpretation of the right version of a book that might be the devine word of god, then we might not wind up going to this horrible place called hell (assuming it exists).

You're right about never being 100% sure about anything. But there is such a thing as reasonable certainty. I can't be 100% certain that the sun will rise tomorrow or that my feet won't just fall off or that President Bush isn't really Bigfoot in disguise. But I can be reasonably certain that the sun will rise and my feet will be alright and we ain't lucky enough for Bush to be Bigfoot. Like wise, I consider the probability of christianity to be so low and the price to join so high that its not even worth considering.

Anonymous said...

hey blaine...
I have had the chance to minister to to a number of people who struggle with homosexual behaviors as a Christian and from a bibical stand point. Homosexuality is wrong, it is sin, but we still love the people...even if they do sin. There are people who are attracted to the same sex...people who like animals...are inclined towards children...people who like themselves...there are all sorts of people strugging with perversion...and haveing a hard time of it because they can't seem to figure out what's wrong with them. Now the world teaches that nothing is wrong with them and there is nothing they can do to change themselves.
But we teach and the bible teaches that yes...there is somthing wrong with all of us but that we can be free of those things which keep us in chains. You don't have to struggle with homosexuality. I I know of many people (some who are very close to me, and some by word of mouth) who overcame this battle by the blood of the Lamb and are living in the freedom and joy Christ offers. Now if you want to be gay then there is nothing I can do or say to aid you. I am only saying that if you want to be free I can help with that. I don't want to argue with anyone about this...I simply want to state that if there are those out there who struggle with perversion, whether it be directed at children, animals, or the same sex, ect, and want to be free of it they can be and can experince more joy and happiness as they draw closer to God.

I assure you that much of this is assoicated with demonics...if you don't belive me you will have a hard time casting them out. Once again...if you don't want to be free don't listen to me. But if you do... here is how.

Pray this:
Jesus, I belive in you. I belive you have all power and authority over all things. I humble myself before you and cast down every speculation and argument against the true knoweldge of you. I ask you to show me the truth and the way to freedom.
(Contuine to seek God until that truth and way to freedom becomes known.)
Then:
bind the demon of perversion in the name of Jesus Christ and declare your freedom loudly. Every time you are tempted or bothered by thoughts not of God speak scripture. "He (meaning you) whom the son sets free (from homosexuailty) is free indeed" Speak it till somthing breaks, speak it till it's real. And have faith.
If you belive you Jesus can set you free, he will.
Each person is differnt...so it is important to contuine to seek God about your deliverence until it is complete...
I hope you take what I have said to heart. IF you don't belive me then ask God about what I am saying...and keep asking, and keep an open mind to him, and he will speak.
If you don't want to live in sin I can't stop you. So go ahead and... see where it leads you if life. But I advise agaisnt it and I belive things can get better.
Anyway.
God Bless.

Anonymous said...

CC,

You're clearly not listening to us, not even caring to read the things we are writing. We have written a lot of things on this website, such as the reasons we don't believe in your god anymore, and if you had read the forums thoroughly, you wouldn't try to reconvert us by using appeals to emotions.
And you're a hypocrite. You think that we should believe "the proof inside YOU", but if a muslim came to you and asked you to believe "the proof inside HIM", you wouldn't give him the time of the day.
Not only that: you're ignorant. Know why? Because even little children know that the greatest fear of humankind is DEATH. And you, a christian, who have a warm, conforting blanket to wrap you in everyday ("I will live forever! I will live forever in a very happy place where there is only love and no worries, wheee!") DARE to come here, and tell us, who have no such blanket ("this life, this world, is everything we have. After we die, of old age or something else, it all ends there.") that it's easier to be atheists than to be christians? Seems to me that the easier thing to believe, is the afterlife you believe in. A nice neverending fairytale of a place where everything is perfect and there is no evil witch. We are the ones that deal with this reality everyday, accepting that there is NO easy escape route to a magical wonder place all full of happyness and faeries with feathery wings and such. We outgrew the faerytale.
(Notice that this also means that an atheist sacrificing his life for a noble purpose is, in my eyes, more pure and corageous than a christian sacrificing his life for what he deems a noble purpose: the atheist is sacrificing it all; the christian is just doing something that he knows will be, yeah, maybe painful, but that will bring him straight to heaven, so in the end he'll be much happier than he is now.)

So why should we listen to you spewing the same shit we have already heard from thousands overzealous christians? ..and yes, you ARE trying to reconvert us, or you wouldn't have posted here at all.
Stop preaching, and start discussing.
Or if you won't do either, just go the f*ck away from here.

P.S. by the way, the sentence "christianity is not a religion but a relationship" is born and existing only in america. That sentence does not exist AT ALL in my country. And my opinion on it is that it's an invention of a christian minister trying to convert to his cult the people disgusted by religion. Yeah, change the definition and everybody will come to you, right? If someone is disgusted by coca cola, just rip away the name on the bottle and stick over it the pepsi label, right? Wake up and smell the coffee, it's not the ETIQUETTE we're disgusted in, it's the taste of the drink!

Anonymous said...

The not a true christian argument followed up with Pascals wager, bored now. I enjoyed the whole science is wrong because it changes. Obviously he did not look up what exactly science is and why it always changes. It changes because some of the time it is wrong, but on a whole our understanding of and the evidence for scientific theories is evolving. As new things are discovered, tested, and understood the old things are discarded or added to. For the better part of human history the earth was flat, the center of the unviverse, and immobile. That changed when brave people dare to go against dogma and actually look up at the "heavens" for themselves.

webmdave said...

It's not a religion? It's a relationship? BULLSHIT!!!

Click here.

Anonymous said...

I don't have the luxury of "choosing" to be an atheist.

Do you believe in Santa Claus? Probably not.

Have you ever believed in Santa Claus? Probably so.

Why don't you still believe in Santa Claus? There is plenty of evidence for his existence. There are lots of stories about him. Millions of people around the world who don't know all the facts still believe in Santa Claus. And you can't prove that he doesn't exist either.

But we "know" Santa Claus is not real because the story is just too ridiculous and there is no credible evidence for Santa's existence that cannot be reasonably explained. We know reindeer don't fly. We know that one person could not travel the entire world in one night. We know that no person could possibly know everything about everyone on earth. In short, we "know" that Santa is not real.

So, is there any way you could go back and "choose" to believe in Santa Claus again? Could you just forget all you know about the Santa Claus myth? Could you forget all you know about the world in which you live and believe Santa is real by faith alone? Of course you can't. You would be lying to yourself.

So it is with me and gods. They are mythical, just like Santa Claus. I "know" it and I can never pretend I don't know it. It doesn't matter how much I would like for gods to exist or how much better things would be if they did exist. They don't and that's all there is to it. I just live with it. It's not hard once you get used to it. I'm sure it was painful, but you got over Santa Claus didn't you?

It's true that ignorance is bliss, but only for the ignorant.

J. C. Samuelson said...

Jordan,

First off, your writing style tells me you are very likely a young person. Whether you are or not you have much to learn, Grasshopper. Spend some time reading some of the materials on this site and other non-Christian sites. Google terms and ideas you don't understand.

Nearly everything you said was simply another tired restatement of Pascal's Wager. Google it. It's on Wikipedia.

The problem with Pascal's Wager (in Christian terms), is that it amounts to being "lukewarm" as defined in the Bible (check out Revelation 3:16 for the implications). It is following God based on risk analysis rather than faith.

"You think the Bible contradicts but science is always changing and its because it is wrong a lot."

Science is always changing because we are always learning. The self-corrective nature of the scientific method is one of its benefits, not a drawback as you seem to think. On the other hand, the Bible does contain contradictions and is just plain wrong about many things, and has no mechanism for correction because it is supposed to be the inerrant and infallible, divine word of God.

"You also say that the burden of proof is on christians. Atheists are the ones with the all risk no reward belief. I think that would put the burden of proof on you because most people would rather take a shot at something than a definite nothing...Also if atheism is true like you say then atheists would have been the first people on earth until someone made up God so the burdern of proof would be on you."

Let me rephrase the first part of this statement thus:

"I saw a ghost. Prove to me I didn't."

The burden of proof is always on the person making a positive claim, particularly a supernatural one. Always. In law or in life, when a person makes a claim to have witnessed a crime or to have seen a ghost, or to have spent last Saturday cavorting with leprechauns, the burden of proof is on them. Period.

As to the second part of your statement, I'm sure you're aware that throughout history humanity has created hundreds of gods. That being the case, why should we believe this god is any different from the others? Again, the burden of proof is on the person making a positive assertion, not on those who doubt that assertion.

Your last paragraph degenerates into little more than a confused rant. Please do yourself a favor and spend more time reading and learning.

Anyway, moving on to CC...

Rather than waste all of our time by doing a point-by-point rebuttal, I'd just like to address one particular statement.

"There are people who are attracted to the same sex...people who like animals...are inclined towards children...people who like themselves...there are all sorts of people strugging with perversion."

All of whom - according to the Bible - are to be killed, not cured. When do you plan to start obeying your God? How many do you think will experience God's justice under your righteous hand before the police cart you away?

J. C. Samuelson said...

Just in case...

CC, nobody wants you to start obeying your God the way I put it in my last post, and hopefully you would reject such a notion. What I meant to say is simply that for all your talk, you are no different than any other Christian. You do not have a special one-on-one connection/relationship with God that gives you insight into His character or a special mission to convert, cure, or save anyone. What you have is a religion. A dangerous religion.

brigid said...

The title of this posting has me a little pissed: "Why would anyone want to be an atheist".

jordan, an atheist is what I am. I do not choose to be an atheist, and I cannot choose to be other than what I am. I am also a lesbian--do you know what a lesbian is?--and I cannot choose to prefer men over women.

I can choose to go on for a few more lines. I am happy and proud to be who I am. I do not think you understand that. Like 'geek said, you are a young person--I would guess your age at 12, give or take. I fail to grasp why your deity would take offense at me. Take offense at what? Why would a god want to hurt me for any reason?

The problem, cookie, is you. You have been taught to fear, hate, and damn all those who are not like your parents and their friends; the true christians. You need to grow up.

Let me jump-start your maturing process: a lesbian is a woman who wants to have sex with other women. You are too young to know what passion is, but we feel passion for those of our own gender. Your religion condemns us. We condemn your religion.

And to CC: stuff it. You made me sick with your imbecilic slobbering. Get out of here and go change your pants.

Ubergeek, where have you been? Me has been missing you. Have ye been out sinning? Reprobate.

Anonymous said...

I was never really much of a christian. But, oh, how I tried! (Who wouldn’t want to be, in this society, where atheists are demonized and True Believers™ lord it over everyone else and treat anyone who doesn’t hold their views like shit?)

I visited more than 80 christian churches, running the full range from pentacostal to catholic to congregationalist, looking for a spiritual home. I just couldn’t believe what they were telling me.

I prayed and fasted and sacrificed and begged god to give me the gift of faith. Nothing happened. I asked my Christian friends and their pastors to pray for me, also. Zilch!

Then I actually read the KJV through a couple of times. I purchased and read other translations of the bible. I took up a serious study of religion and christianity in particular, trying to absorb all views. That’s what it did it for me; convinced me that it’s all a sham and turned me into an atheist forever.

Keep reading and studying, maybe you’ll learn, too. Then, you’ll be free and not have to live your life in fear of a cruel, psychotic “god” who values credulity above all else and who causes the eternal torture of people who live just as he created them by daring to think independently.

Jim Arvo said...

Why would anyone want to be an atheist?

Honesty.

brigid said...

And why do you call yourself Mariana Trench? Because you're so deep? Do you know that the deepest part of the trench is named the Challenger Deep? Do stick around....I think we'll be pals.

Arvo, I do not see you around very often. A shame.

brigid said...

I just wanted to say a little more to Mariana.

As a former catholic I am frequently puzzled over the stories of former fundamentalists. The stories involve a disappointed expectation--they were told that some big change was going to happen.

In the catholic church, nobody is told to expect anything. There is no conversion experience; nothing like that. You are baptised; you are confirmed, and there you are. Apostasy happens gradually and very undramatically, like watching shit dry. But eventually you find yourself an unbeliever......uh......and there you are.

Anonymous said...

Why would anyone want to be a Christian? Your God is a true horror. Ever notice that all the Bible's definitions of satan also fit God?

But hey, we don't hate Christians. We just hate the Christianity.

Anonymous said...

Hi, Brigid! You asked, "And why do you call yourself Mariana Trench? Because you're so deep?" Something like that - and also because I have a weird sense of humor.

About Catholics: A friend of mine converted from United Methodist to Catholicism when she got married about 18 years ago because that's what her husband's family attends, not that he ever goes to church ;-) She says she finds it strange that Catholics are discouraged from praying but instead are told to rely on the priests to intervene with god on their behalf. However, she stays because she likes the ritual and the music, and because her daughters now go to catholic school.

Anywho, I suspect that a lot of Catholics and mainstream/liberal protestants go to church for similar reasons - for the pomp and the socializing, etc. - not because they really believe the doctrine. i.e., I suspect the vast majority of Americans are actually agnostic but fear "god's bullies" too much to label themselves as such.

Anonymous said...

I have something interesting for you dear butthead!

One of my friends said that Heaven is between the mesosphere and ionosphere. where do you think is the exact location of Hell?

Both heaven and hell is inside you.

brigid said...

Marianna!!!!

I wanted to say a little about myself. I quit the church when I learned about its bloody history--I might say more on that later. What little was left of my beliefs went away one evening while watching tv. This boy and I were watching "Robin Hood" (Errol Flynn; Olivia DeHaviland) and it was such a beautiful story and the boy snuggled me and petted me. I knew then that I did not want gods or heavens or holy books; I wanted a nice warm boy to hold me and be nice to me.

I still like guys, but I found that I just feel closer to my own gender, and I identify with lesbians. I am in a D/s relationship with a woman I call Mistress. I have many male and female friends and I am never lonely, and what I felt at the age of 16 has not changed. I want people. I do not want gods, or sons of gods, or blessed virgins, or saints. I want a real live lover to touch me and talk to me.

'scuse me, I am starting to sniffle.Bye

brigid said...

I had to go have a good cry. Damn my feelings.

Blain, a gay christian makes no more sense than a jewish nazi. Would you mind explaining what the hell a gay christian is?

And anonymous, I can tell you where hell is. Hell is between my legs. Enter there, and you will know the fires of wrath. Pleasure so wicked you would trade your soul. Abandon all hope.

Hi again to you, Marianna. When I start talking about what's in my heart, I can go up like Mt St Helen. I try to act so tough. Yeah right.

Jim Arvo said...

Hi Brigid,

I still hang around here; in fact, probably more than I ought to. Often I get absorbed in projects or have pressing deadlines, so I disappear for a while, but I always come back and check out what folks are discussing here. Truth be told, I find the fundy rants the most entertaining. It's like a really interesting puzzle to me--what *could* they be thinking? It's particularly puzzling to me because I cast of Christianity at about the age of seven, so believing adults are something of an enigma to me.

Now, the poster who started this thread actually sounds very young to me--teens, maybe. Just look at all the clichés and fallacies in that post. It's practically an encyclopedia of muddled thinking. It would take hours to systematically address all the fallacies. Is it even worth the time? Critical thinking is clearly not one of Jordan's strong suits, so he's likely to keep spewing that nonsense (e.g. why are there still monkeys?, and Pascal's wager, and you were never a true Christian, etc. etc. etc.).

Anyway, I'm just rambling... (to show I'm still here)

brigid said...

Hello Jim, and no, you are not rambling. I come here daily so I can hear what rational people sound like. Then I imitate them. Comparing your kind to jordan's kind is a real pleasure.

But you know.....I still persist in trying to wage an argument against these losers, as though some defense were needed. We need no defense for living our own lives and thinking our own thoughts. Is it true that in colonial America, there were towns where some guy would go up and down the streets, beating a big drum, and summoning people to church. People would leave their houses, meek as rabbits, and follow the drummer to church. When I read that, I did not know whether to laugh or get sick.

I am reminded of what Emiliano Zapato once said: "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees".

J. C. Samuelson said...

Hi Brigid,

You're back! I didn't know. I've been around but mostly lurking, with one exception. I make daily visits, but sometimes only skim to avoid information overload.

I'd ask how your vacation went but don't want to get too off topic. If you like you can email me at googleman70@yahoo.com.

If I knew more people in my area who aren't lost in faith, I might be able to go out sinning more often. As it is, my social life is limited at the moment. What would really be nice is someone to, um, have sin with. ;) But that'll come with time. No pun intended. Or was there...?

Jim,

I agree with you that the poster sounds young. Also, I agree with Brigid that it's a shame you don't post as often as some of us. You're always lucid and help make us think.

brigid said...

Hi 'geek, I figured you'd stroll in here soon.

My vacation: I do not remember exactly what I posted....something about the need to get away. I have these flashbacks to my catholic days. It is not rational, at least I know that, but the guilt can come back almost as strong as ever. At such times Mistress gets me away for a day or two--I like the beach--and I get back to normal real quick.

I am sitting here staring at the goddamned screen and cursing everybody who did this to me. I was a child, goddamnit, and they put those ideas into my head. Assholes.

I'm just glad I'm out of all that. But you know....to this day I cannot pass a catholic church without shivering.

south2003 said...

Jordan: "Why would anyone want to be an Atheist?"

To avoid the mind rape you’re having right now. Whatever happened to Critical Thinking with you Christians? Hell Heaven Hell Heaven, Rewards Hell Heaven Rewards blah blah blah…that is all I’m hearing. All you have is a fearful, childlike, uneducated, and ignorant belief system that is to, supposedly, reward you with candy if you are a good little boy or brussel sprouts if you are naughty naughty naught.

My question is: Why would anyone adhere to a belief system that tells mankind they are to the likes of filthy rags (menstrual cloth) just for a reward?

Jim said...

Anyone today, in the light of scientific knowledge, who believes that a mere 2000 years ago a God berthed himself through a young virgin girl and became the God of Christianity has a problem with the mind. Hell like Heaven of course just don't even exist.
Cheers all Jim Lee. Australia

Anonymous said...

So it's better to be fearful and panicky than to think for yourself? That's basically what you're saying: "I'm afraid to think on my own so I better believe in God because the Bible tells me so..." What a pathetic reason for being a Christian. If you were to tell me you were Christian because it made you feel better about yourself and minkind, or because it helped you get out of trouble/drugs/etc. I'd respect that; but to say you are a Christian because you're afraid is simply pathetic.

Have a great life living in fear, coward.

myqel said...

Hey Blaine and CC ...

I am gay and I was a Christian.
You can read my Ex-testimony here: http://www.exchristian.net/testimonies/2005/08/i-am-free-from-religion.php

I knew from a very early age that I was gay. And I prayed to "god" to change me. I did not want to be gay.

The reason i prayed to be a heterosexual was not because someone forced themself on me. There was no priest or creepy relative. My parents were always there and are very loving people. Nope, I was actually pretty comfortable with the actual physical aspect of homosexuality.

The reason I wanted change was because I saw how "faggots" are treated in this society. I did not want my parents, family and friends to hate me. The ONLY reason I wanted to be "normal" was becasue it was the Christian way.

Well, I searched and studied the religion and found massive flaws in your "bible". I realized that Christianity subverted Judaism. Just as Mormonism subverted Christianity.

I now no longer believe in Invisible cloud beings. And I have become a much happier person for it. The idea that a god created flawed humans and then sent himself to earth to redeem himself to himself for the mistake he made is rediculous. The notion of Santa Claus makes much more credible sense than Chriatianity.

Keep your religion and your sick and hideous reparative therapy.

I am happier without them

Anonymous said...

Asuryan, you said...

"christianity is not a religion but a relationship" is born and existing only in america. That sentence does not exist AT ALL in my country. And my opinion on it is that it's an invention of a christian minister trying to convert to his cult the people disgusted by religion."
Hmm. The relationship teaching does not come from man but from God through his Bible. The Bible was not written in the west. Read 1 John...he talks about knowing God throughout. "The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love" IT also talks about how the world does not know God and therefor does not know us (the children of God)
1 John 2 3: "by this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep his commadments"
and so on...
Paul said that nothing compares to the greatness (or priceless gain) of knowing Christ Jesus.
Jesus talked about no one knowing the father except him and anyone he choses to show the father too.
So this is hardly a modern idea.

Add I am not telling you to believe the truth inside of me, I am telling you to seek the truth from the source so you can have it inside of you.

If you ask people what their greatest fear is, on average, more people say their greatest fear is public speaking...not death. Public speaking is embarsing. It has to do with pride which is what I was refering to.
Although you may be right that Christ way is easier than being an athiest. I am willing to accept that since Jesus himself said his burden is light... But at the same time finding God is difficult even though he is not very far from any of us. But forgive me if I offended you.

But you are wrong to say that I am a hypocrite because I would not give a muslim (or someone who belived differntly than me) the time of day. I am giveing you the time of day, am I not? I have taken the time to read a lot things I don't agree with that are offencive to me on this web site because I think it is important to listen.
And why do you think I writing to you? Because I am a brainwashed fantic? Nope. It's because I care. I said you would not listen, and I was right...I knew you would insult me, and I came back anyway. Because I belive you can still be saved and I want that for you even though I do not know you. Why do you hate me for caring?
I am not claiming to be a super Christian or that I never sin. I am just a guy with a bad temper and a lot of problems. But I have found peace and joy and I want to share that with others. It's not just about salvation or just about attending church or about the ten commandments. It's about living in the Spirit. Lot of people miss this. Christ died so he could send us the Holy Spirit so we could overcome the world and our sin and have fellowship with him. Just to be with him. And anyone living in the Spirit is not under the law. This is what knowing God is all about. WHich brings me to my next point.

...Ubergeek. You also said, refering to the sexual imoral: "All of whom - according to the Bible - are to be killed, not cured."
That was according to the OT law. Death by stoning I belive. Now we Now the Law condems us all to death. Every human. But christ blood can set anyone free from death.
"Do not be decived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkars, nor revilers, nor swinders, will inherit the kingdom of God.
"Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justifed in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Sprit of our God"
1 Corinthians 6: 9-11.
So then, anyone who sins can be justifed and purified.
I will admit that many in the church do not have a soild understanding of how God views homosexuals and treat some with hated...which is not God's way. People get confused because they don't understand God's plan and what the OT is really all about. Not to say that I fully understand everything either...but I keep on searching for the truth in the pages. But it should be understood by both those inside and outside the church that Christ does not want us to physically harm anyone because of there personal sin. Jesus did not teach that. He taught we where to love one another. God is a tolerant God. If he was not...we would all be dead.

But you do bring up an intresting point when you asked when I would start caring out "God's will" and killing such people. I listed those who have intercource with children...I would like to know where you stand on this? Some people think capital punishment would be a sutible payment for those who commit such acts. Where do you stand on capital punishment? Perhaps you do not think it is even wrong to have realtions with children? I understand one of the great freedoms of being an athiest is that you can define your own sence of write and wrong. So I wonder...how do you feel about the child brothels that exsit in our world? And indeed...when is it right to stop another human from doing somthing through force? Murder is wrong...and the bible teachs that. But what do you think? Is there ever a time when murder is right? What about killing in self defence? What about war? What about theft? What about abortions?
There was a race of primate people in the Amazon in early to mid 20th century who used wait until a child is born...to see the sex, and if it was not desirble the father would beat it to death with a stick. Christian missionarys put a stop to this practice...was that wrong of them to interfer with another culture? To interfer with another persons world view and thoughts on morality? Who defines right and wrong, good and evil? It can get very confusing, but God's word brings clarity to those who read it with the aid of the Holy Spirit. I will say that with out God's restraint and the guidince of the Bible I would have killed in my life time. The bible, a book spoken againt often here, saved a close friends of mine from death at my hands.

And then there are those who point out the bad things the church has done in it's histroy. Every nation has been involved in questionable actions. Would you stop being American because they went to war against the British? They killed people you know...to earn their freedom.
Instead you most likely would try to be a better American today. It's the same with Christians.

Why not look at the positve things the Body of Christ has done in every culture it has touched?
People say that the Church is anti-woman but the truth is after the coming of Christ women recieved more and more rights. Even ancient roman pagan scholors agree that the coming of Chritianty was a turning point for the freedom and dignity of women. Christian missionarys today are still fighting for the rights of women and others in countries where those rights are supressed.
Human sacrifice has been put to stop in many places because of Christ. Is this not a good thing? Cultures are destroyed, relgions and human digity shattered, but evil is put to a stop also.
I'm not agreeing with eveything that the christians have done, nor am I saying that the church or even me are perfect in any way, just that we are not evil and dangerous fanitcs which must be stopped. And also that we can still choose today to follow a God who is good and perfect and do what is good by living by the Spirit of God. We can change. We can be better. I belive we should change. If I took the advise of some well meaning humans who said: "Just be yourself" I would be a real bad dude.
So I have not attained perfection but I press on towards the goal, I keep fighing, and I will never give up.

And I invite you to be open minded that there is way to have a personal relationship with God.

myqel said...

CC wrote:
"I simply want to state that if there are those out there who struggle with perversion, whether it be directed at children, animals, or the same sex, ect, and want to be free of it they can be and can experince more joy and happiness as they draw closer to God."

How dare you call homosexuality a perversion? And how dare you compare it to bestiality and child abuse. Are you a psychologist? Obviously not because the American Psychological Association does not view homosexuality as a mental disorder needing to be treated.

You base your opinion on your "bible." SCREW YOU!

You, and people like you, are the reason I left your F***ed up cult.

Anonymous said...

mygel,
I stated clearly that if you did not want what I was offering than you did not have to take it.

Now you are trying to say that you prayed to be free and did not get that freedom so what I am saying does not work. But it does work and has worked.
You have to have to right mind set. If you only wanted to be straight out of fear of man to please man you where doing it for the wrong reasons and God won't honor that. You said yourself you where comfortable with being gay. Once again, if you want to be gay, I can't help you. I can only help those who struggle with thoughts they don't want to have. Those who want to free.

And don't say that is wrong of me to want to help someone who wants help. It's not. If you want to be gay I won't force my God upon you. But if you want to be freed from homosexuality than I am more than willing and happy to help.
But in the end think people just want to be loved and cared for by someone. I find that love in God and it is a love that will never fail. Human realtionshios fail because people are imperfect, but God is always faithful.
Sorry if I offended you.

Anonymous said...

mygel,
you take offence where now is meant. I do not mean to insult you. You think because I say homosexulity is wrong that I am saying you as a person are without worth. But that's not it. Sexual perfernce does not difine who you are. THere is so much more to you than being gay or black or white or tall or short or having a intrest in cars or liking chocolate. These are just part of the things that make you up. I am not intrest in you as a whole, human. As a created being of God who has value. And you do have worth in God's eyes and mine and you are worth saving, praying for, dieing for and talking too.
So don't think I am trying to attack you or any friends of your because you are gay.

I have friends that are gay, I have relative who are gay, and I love them and care about them. But I have to speak the truth because if I don't I'm not realling helping this people. I hope you can belive that I am sincere.
God Bless.

webmdave said...

"I hope you can belive..."

I believe you're sincere—deluded, but sincere.

freeman said...

Nothing to fear but fear itself! FDR

Jim Arvo said...

CC said (to Asuryan, I think) "Because I belive you can still be saved and I want that for you even though I do not know you. Why do you hate me for caring?"

CC, please consider this. I care about you. For that reason, I'm going to try to help you. The way I wish to help you is to get you to see that you are under the spell of religion. Your religion is really a fairly pernicious meme (a "thought virus", if you will), that thrives because it thwarts competing memes (by blocking critical thinking), and replicates itself (through proselytizing). For some people it has some beneficial side effects, but for the most part this meme exists because it's a good replicator, not because it reflects reality in any meaningful sense, and probably not because it confers any great advantages to individuals or society. In my experience, those who rid themselves of such parasites are generally better off in the long run, and I posit that society as a whole benefits.

So, we're in an odd situation here, aren't we? You would like to change my thinking (by spreading your religious memes to my brain), and I would like to change your thinking (by planting an critical thinking memes in your brain). How should we proceed in this battle of memes?

Let me start by telling you my strategy. As my meme thrives in the presence of memes for science, self examination, logic, debate, etc., and those things are typically anathema to religious memes, I'm going to start by urging to you to ground your assertions in observable and verifiable phenomena. For example, when you make assertions such as "The relationship teaching does not come from man but from God through his Bible", I'm going to ask you to examine them closely with me, and see if there is anything that we might objectively observe about the world that could count as evidence for it. In particular, what is true about the world that supports your idea that there is a god, and that the Bible is somehow her book? You see, if I can get you in the habit of asking such basic questions as those, you will be much more receptive to other memes that (I claim) are healthier for you, because they will help you to rid yourself of various parasites that thrive in and promote credulity.

So, what's your strategy going to be? How can do you think your religious memes can get a foothold in my brain?

xrayman said...

Hey CC thanks so much for bringing out the best in my Atheist brothers and sisters. The harder and more thorougly a Christian tries to bring home their point, the more thoroughly those rediculous points are refuted. It's people like yourself who really rile them up(the real brains of this operation) and get them to post their best stuff, thus reinforceing how right we are with our non-belief. One more thing, I'd be willing to bet the story about the tribe that beat their babies to death is Bullshit.

Anonymous said...

Hey Jim. Well said.
My tactics are simple. Seek God for yourself through Jesus his son. And when you find him you will know he is real.

That's it.

But maybe you can help me with a little problem.
I have seen things which are not thought to be possible by many. I have seen people who are possessed by demons and then seen those demons cast out in the name of Jesus, I've seen people who have been healed from various illness after being prayed for, and I have seen my own personal prayers answered innumerable times, I have seen angels with my own physical eyes, I have been attacked by demons physicaly on a number of occassions, and I have felt somthing inside me which I can only describe as "gold" and very real, which was depostied in my inner being after prayer to God. I have wittnessed many things that concur with the Bible's account. In fact as I study the bible more I find greater understanding on things I was previsouly confused about. I know many other Christians whom I trust that have experinced similar things. I know of many people outside the church that I also trust who have wintness supernatural phenomenom on differnt occasions. Which leads me to belive that there is more to the world than what we typical see.
You have the liberty of disbeliving me...of cource. I do not have that liberty since I have witnessed these things with my own eyes and felt them and touched them myself. Can you explain to me what I have seen? Or will use simply state that I am being untruthful so you can avoid having to enter a debate you can not possible win.
Intrestingly enough, I have heard theories that quamtum physicists claim there are alternative dimensions and such. So perhaps science can support my claims. If so...than perhaps there is somthing to my "deluded" thinking. Maybe you need to be more open-minded to spiritual things.
God is real. I have no doubt of this. I also have do doubt that Jesus is the son of God since whenever dealing with other spiritual forces or beings claiming to be dieties I have found that the name of Jesus on the lips of a beliver always causes them to flee. (Just as the bible says.)

So I belive and trust that book since it has helped me out of tight situations on many occasions. The Word of God has never failed me.

Anonymous said...

xrayman
The story about the babies in Brazil comes from a book called Christ's Witchdoctor. It was written by Homer Dowdy. We have no reason to belive the account is fictional.
The tribe is called the Wai-Wai. The story about the children came down from Wai-Wai tribe members. If you want to research it further go ahead.

Anonymous said...

We all see what we look for, CC, if we look hard enough. As the saying goes, change your perspective and you change your life.

Oh, and most of us here have already sought God through Jesus, and found him to be absent at best, despicable at worst.

webmdave said...

"Intrestingly enough...I belive"

'nuff sayed.

Lillith22 said...

CC I have one word for you....Lithium

Jim Arvo said...

CC replied to my query about the battle of memes with this: "Seek God for yourself through Jesus his son. And when you find him you will know he is real."

Hmmmm. I think you're going to have to do a little better than that. When you say "seek god", I can interpret that in a number of different ways. The interpretation that makes the most sense to me is "openly consider the arguments that are put to you concerning the existence of god", which I have assiduously done since I was a child. It is only by having done that that I can say with any confidence that the Christian dogma is claptrap. But, perhaps you meant something else. Perhaps you meant "Open your 'heart' to Jesus" (as it is often put), which implies that some level of conviction is required as a *precursor* to attaining evidence. Now that meme is going to fall flat on its face, I'm afraid. You see, it runs smack into my logic meme, which shouts "Circular reasoning! Fallacy! Fallacy!", and it also meets considerable resistance from my psychology memes, which recognize "cognitive dissonance" and how it can be used to bootstrap otherwise unsupported dogma.

Some explanation is in order. If, indeed, you are advocating the "belief as precursor to reason" position, then it is patently circular, because the entire issue is what to believe. Hence, it's a losing strategy to simply implore that one believe at the outset. On the other hand, if what you are advocating is perhaps a weaker form of belief to start with, which will then become more entrenched as it secures more "evidence" in support of itself, I'm afraid I'm impervious to that one too. I know full well that belief colors subsequent thinking, so I steadfastly avoid jumping to conclusions before I've considered the evidence (to the best of my abilities). This is precisely why jurors are instructed to listen to all the evidence before deliberating, and it's a jolly good idea, in my opinion.

So, let me send a couple of thoughts your way. You say Jesus is the "son" of god. Can you please explain how you came to hold that belief? I realize that this is a central element of the Nicene creed, but there are countless "creeds" that purport the divinity of countless gods, and there are numerous "holy" books that purport to be the product of various deities. How did you manage to hit upon the "right" one? How did you rule out Krishna or Buddha? Or Mithra, or Osiris, or Adonis for that matter?

Here's another question for you. Can you name any books that you're read that are critical of Christianity? That's a favorite question of mine (it's a great meme) because I find that very few Christians have any desire to consider counter-arguments to their claims. You see, that's one of the ways the Christian meme protects itself and spreads. Very clever, hu?

CC: "...I have seen people who are possessed by demons and then seen those demons cast out in the name of Jesus, I've seen people who have been healed from various illness after being prayed for,..."

And there are countless frauds, right? We've all seen that kind of stuff on TV. I think it shows how credulous many people are. Can you point to any objective evidence that such healings are anything more than a con job?

CC: "...I have seen angels with my own physical eyes,..."

People report that they see ghosts, aliens, sea monsters, dead ancestors, etc. all the time. Is there something that makes your sighting more believable than the others?

CC: "...I have been attacked by demons physicaly on a number of occassions,..."

And how do you know they were demons? (I've got to admit, you're starting to sound like a bit of a nut, but I'll let that slide for the moment...)

CC: "...as I study the bible more I find greater understanding on things I was previsouly confused about."

Have you come to understand the violence condoned, commanded, and perpetrated by your god? Do you understand how she could countenance the wholesale slaughter of communities, including children and animals? Do you understand why homosexuals, adulterers, and disobedient children were to be put to death?

CC: "I know of many people outside the church that I also trust who have wintness supernatural phenomenom on differnt occasions."

I know quite a few people who claim to have seen "supernatural" phenomena too. The funny thing is, there's a hugely negative correlation between seeing such things and being knowledgeable about science and other cultures (in particular, other religions). I find that the more broadly educated people are, the less susceptible they are to fantasies, and the less likely they are to "see" such things.

CC: "You have the liberty of disbeliving me...of cource. I do not have that liberty since I have witnessed these things with my own eyes and felt them and touched them myself."

You always have the option of critically examining your own perceptions. In my opinion, if you place any of these perceptions of yours beyond the reach of critical enquiry, then it is all the more reason to doubt that they are what you think they are.

CC: "Can you explain to me what I have seen?..."

Based on what you've told me here? No, of course not.

CC: "...Or will use simply state that I am being untruthful so you can avoid having to enter a debate you can not possible win."

No, I wouldn't employ such a transparently self-serving strategy. I have no reason to doubt that YOU believe what you are saying, so I have no reason to think you are lying. But what "debate" are you speaking of? On the existence of your deity? The truth of some specific Christian dogma? The reality of your experiences?

CC: "...I have heard theories that quamtum physicists claim there are alternative dimensions and such."

Various string theories posit different numbers of physical dimensions, yes. Eleven dimensions is a prime contender right now. Are you suggesting that your god in hiding in one or more of those extra dimensions?

CC: "Maybe you need to be more open-minded to spiritual things."

Maybe. But here's another possibility. Maybe you need to seriously consider the possibility that your deity no more real than Mithra or Osiris.

CC: "God is real. I have no doubt of this...."

As I always say "If you can't fathom the possibility that you might be wrong, then you almost certainly are!" You do realize that strength of conviction is an abysmally bad indicator of "truth", right? In fact, as my maxim implies, I believe there's actually a negative correlation.

Anonymous said...

So you think I am crazy. The problem I have with this is that I was tested for mental illness in high school and the good doctor could find none.
Why was I tested in the first place? It was reported that someone heard me talking to myself. I think they mistook praying for somthing else. All in all it worked out because the assumtion that I am insane was proved false.
The notion that I see what I want to see is a two way street. You don't see it because you close your eyes to it. Your not looking.

Am I to believe that none of you, with histroy in the church have ever seen one positive example of a life changed for the better because of Christ?

I can think of many. And if you think hard enough and do the research you will no doubt find an abundance of positve effects Christianty has had on this planet.
Why are you so oppsed to eveything I say? Why the anger? Why the mocking? I have not come with anger or insults or mocking. I come speaking the truth.

Now there are people here who are hurting deeply and I feel for those people. I used to be one. But I got past my bitterness and I found my God again.
This is about rebellion. People don't want to do things the way other people or God tells me too, so they hate God and hate his Chruch. And it's about pride. Human pride, angels pride...it's all the same. It's nothing new. Lucifer knew God was real, walked with him, and then turned against him because he wanted to do things his way.
But there is no freedom in this.
You prove it.
If you had gotten free of your past and pain that you blame on Christianty you would not still be on this web site. But your still chained here, chained to your pain.
You still hurt, and your still looking for answers, and you still have a sence of gulit, and know that somthing is not right deep down insdide of you...that all is not well.

But you can truly find peace with Christ in this life and the next. And you can see good works perfomed through you that effect the world in a positve way. And life can be better.

Talk to Jesus a lot. Talk to him about eveything. Talk to him about your pain. Talk to him about your problems. Talk to him about your anger. And then listen. And then talk some more. This is the path to knowing God and will change your life. You can have more than you ever had before. You can have more than a human insitution or organization or relgion. You really can.

If you have been wronged by the church than I want to try and right that wrong. If you have been cheated from the truth by people who claimed to teach it but did not understand it, then I want to right that wrong.
If you have been hurt then I want to see you healed.
If you have been confused than I want you to have clarity.

You say you have already looked for God through Christ...well maybe you did not look hard enough or in the wrong places.
I urge you to seek God again with eveything inside you and see if what I have spoken is true or false. I have complete confidince in my God. If you want some advise on how to seek Him and some one to stand by you than just say the word, I will be here tomorrow.
But know this...we are not that differnt. I am like you, i wandered away from christianty for four years. But in the end I found that the only place I am truly happy is in the arms of Christ. I have had doubts and in the past have question God many times. But Jesus, as they say, is the answer.
Now, as for Jim

"'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving' For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them." The Book of Acts.
This is your condition Jim. 2000 years ago people were just like you.
"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who supress the truth by their wickness, since what may be known about God is plain to them because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God' invisible quailites-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." The book of Romans.
We know that there is God, we see it all around us, otherwise we would not be haveing this argument.

What it comes down too is this: Jesus Christ came to this world, lived a perfect life, influncing the planet more than any single person before or after, and then was killed in a most horrible fashion and three days later rose from the dead. History records this. You may claim that the NT can not be used as a source of historical facts but then I would ask you what ancient text is more reliable than it?
The only manuscipts we have of the history of Thucydides (460-400 B.C) where written 1300 years after he wrote it.
Aristotle's poems were written in around 343 B.C. but the earliest copy in existence is dated A.D. 1100.
Caesar's history of the Gallic wars was compsed between 58-50 B.C. but our only manuscripts are dated 1000 years after his death.
For each of these there are less than ten manuscripts in exsitence.
The New Testement however, has over 20,000 ancient manuscripts, most of them written between the time of Christ and the 2nd century.
So since those ancient classics are considered by scholars to be truthworthy the reliability of the NT is shown to be much more.
The New testement has more ancient manuscipt authority than anyother text of lituture from the antiquity.

As for the accuracy of what was written in the NT manuscripts Aristotle's dictum still applies:
"The benefit of the doubt is to be given to the document itself, and not arrogated by the critic to himself."
So, one cannot assume fraud or error while analyzing the claims of a document unless the author disqualifies himself by proven factual inaccuracies or contradictions.

The writers of the New Testament lived in the time that they wrote about, they lived in the places they wrote about, and they give plenty of evidence of this, such as the beginning of the third chapter of Luke, where the ruler of Rome, the govenor of Judea, tetrarch of Galilee, tetrach of Ituraea etc, are all listed and are proven to be historicaly accurate for the time period.
The writers of the NT were witnesses of what they wrote and the people they wrote to were also witness of what they wrote,Acts 2:"...miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him (Jesus the Nazarene) in your midst, just as you know..."
and Acts 26: "For the king knows about these matters, and I speak to him also with confidence, since I am persuaded that none of these things escape his notice; for this has not been done in a corner."

Since the people they wrote for knew about what they were writing, knew what had been taking place concerning Jesus Christ and the apostles, the writers of the NT wouldn't have been able to lie without getting caught. There are also more than twenty gospels not included in the NT, many of them not written by Christians, but by opposing sects and factions(Gnostics for one), that also state that Jesus Christ was real and then miraculous signs followed him. So both Christian and non-Christian of ancient times admited that Christ existed.
Will Durant, a trained investigator of historical records, wrote in Caesar and Christ: "Despite the prejudices and theological preconceptions of the evangelists, they record many incidents that mere inventors would have concealed-the competition of the apostles for high places in the Kingdom, their flight after Jesus' arrest, Peter's denial, the failure of Christ to work miracles in Galilee, the references of some auditors to his possible insanity, his early uncertainty as to his mission, his confessions of ingnorance as to the future, his moments of bitterness, his despairing cry on the cross; no one reading these scenes can doubt the reality of the figure behind them. That a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic, and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospels. After two centuries of Higher Criticism the outlines of the life, character, and teaching of Christ remain reasonably clear, and constitute the most fascinating feature in the history of Western man."

So since Jesus Christ existed, and I cannot prove that the witnesses of him in the NT are false, I must believe that any man who would first claim to be the Son of God, predict his own execution, perform miracles, signs and wonders, predict his betrayal by the hands of one of his own, then be betrayed, beaten half to death, hung on a cross, then ask God to forgive those who were killing him, die, and then amazingly rise to life on the third day, must have been the Son of God. Even the Roman soldier at the crucifixion cried out, "Surely this man was the Son of God."

As for how I came to know God, that's simple. In my case I did not search and find God to begin with. It was the other way around. God called me and found me. It was latter in my life that searching began. Searching for the truth of God. I never ever belived he did not exist since I had enough evidence through my experinces that the option of God's non exsistence was never credible. I did however question who God is, and if he is good and if he can be truted, and why bad things happen, and so on and so forth.

In the I discoved that God is good. I know from experince that he has always been good to me and I know all thing work toghter for good to those who love God.
You asked if I ever read anything that critized Christiany. Well, I have been reading this site all day...I have watched many secular movies that where anti-christian, I have read many book that do not belive what I belive, I went to public school where they taught contrary to what the church teaches. I have been exposed to other peoples doubts my whole life.
Now then.
As you pointed out there are sides too God which upset us. The wrathful side.
Well, God is both wrathful and mericful. He is humble and proud. The Lion and the Lamb. He is a King, he is a Mighty Warrior, he is no push over and no one to be trifled with. He is compasinate and kind, he is beutiful and glorious, he beyond compare. He is like nothing else the exists or ever will exist. He is God, and he has my love and my trust. I have faith in him because he is faithful.
So do I understand why homosexuals, adulterers, and disobedient children were to be put to death? Yes, as a matter of fact I do. Because they sinned. You say that God's ways are not just? I say that your ways, oh man, are not just. Humanity's way is injustice and it has always been such. We as a race are all under a death sentence because of sin. The amazing thing is not that God has wrath on some, but that he has mercy on some. Take a long, honest look at the human race and it's history and tell me I'm wrong.


But none of this can be understood without the Holy Spirit, and you can not have the Holy Spirit unless Christ gives Him to you, and He will not give Him to you unless you ask, and you can not ask if you do not believe.
One of the reasons the church is so flawed is because many churchs don't even believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit which is entirly necessary to live a true Christian life. I have confidence in what I belive because I do have the Spirit of God living inside me and have felt Him move many times.
In the end, if you want to experince God you must have his Spirit inside you. But if you do not believe you will not receive.

So yes, it does require faith on your part. It requires admiting that you need help. But if you do not need help, if you are without sin, if you are perfect already, then tell me what your solution to the problem of the world is. But if you can admit that you are not perfect, that none of us are, then there is hope for God's plan being fulfilled in your life.

Christ came to help the sick, not people who thought they had it all work out.

In the same way my words are for people which are in pain, and which need help, and know they need help. Jesus is that help.

Jesus came to save the world, not judge it. Yes, sin must be punished. But Christ paid the price for the homosexuals, adulterers, and disobedient children so they would not have too. "God loved us while we were still sinners" And you all know John 3:16.

All you have to do is believe. He is the answer to the question.

Anonymous said...

CC,
I know that you meant well. I tried to talk to the people on this website before a few weeks ago, and just wished them well and left it alone.The more I tried to help them, the more they insulted me. All you can do is plant the seed, keep these people in your prayers, and move on. They have some kind of anger that most cannot understand.What I realized after debating on this website for a couple of days is that I can see how in the last days, christians will be killed for their faith in God. It use to be hard to imagine something like that happening in our country, but with the bitterness that I see against christians by some people these days, I now see where it can happen even here. I am sorry for the offence this will cause, but you cannot be a gay christian. You cannot be a christian thinking that any type of fornication is alright. Do you just ignore the parts of the bible while you are in church that God talks about these things? Homosexual sex is an abomination, male OR female, but so is strait sex between a man and woman that are not commited to each other in marriage. Just because people don't like this, doesn't make it not true and just because you do not believe in hell does not mean that hell doen't exist. If you do a little search at the UN website and dig around a little bit, you can see that the New World Order is being developed, and they have a microchip for a governing tool named PARIS21 that is already being used in some third world counties. They have already started this and want to have this in complete worldwide use by 2015. HHHMMMM, doesn't that sound kindof like prophesy coming to past.Could it be a coincidence? I don't think so. It's right there in their website with the nickname MDG. People like to think that people in this country would never be talked into getting a microchip implanted, America would not stand for that. But, what if a worldwide pandemic happen to break out like so many keep predicting, and with so many deaths, jobs lost, breadwinners of the family dying, hospitals getting slammed with alot of the staff dying, and complete chaos everywhere, yea, if this proud country was brought to it's knees from some disaster such as this, people would do anything to try and get their lives straitened out. I wish that you could see that us christians that come into this website, are not trying to aggrivate you or make people mad, we just want everyone to WAKE UP!!! All this is true,and you need to get rid of denial and loose the idea that intelligent people are above the notion of believing in all of our GOD.I will pray for you all,I don't care what you have hateful to say back to me, I WILL pray for all of you. I had to try and warn you about things that are going on, whether you choose to believe it or not. Go ahead and think i'm a doomsday religious freak. Look into some of these things and learn for yourselves.

Anonymous said...

Brigid,
What you wrote about hell is the most discusting filth that I have ever heard! You may need to seek professional help for your complete lack of respect for yourself!Please don't have children! As demon filled as you must be, you can still change your self destructive ways.A woman does not even think of such repulsive things to say. Don't bother responding with your hate, just get in the tub and have a good scrubdown!!!!!!!!

Shannon said...

CC

A god is a wretched explanation for anything and it is a waste of time to contemplate it as one.

God, has had wrath with some? It’s seems a little uneven doesn’t? Attacking children with bears in one moment and flooding the entire world the next but yet allowed pricks such as Stalin and Hitler to run amok?

His minions, guide by his words, have spent centuries prosecuted men of science, burning women at the stake, and supporting slavery. (Neat way of spreading the love, eh)?

While some of the religious live quiet, passive lives, others do not. As Sam Harris said in his book ‘The End of Faith,’ the moderates perpetuate the extremists. Extremists do not live and let live. They want absolute power in deciding our sex lives, our reproduction rights, our moral, ethical, and decency standards, our scientific studies, and our freedom of speech. And they want to use a book as their guide that was written, using an archaic language, by nomadic goat herders and fishermen living in a desert almost 3,000 years ago.

You all had your chance at ruling the world and it wasn’t called the dark ages for nothing.

God is a place marker for the unexplained and it’s bloody not good enough. To contemplate god is to contemplate the next life and not this one. We do not need to hash out god. We need to hash out what value we can place on this life so we can stop killing each other over the next.

Anonymous said...

CC

Ah, faith. It took you a long time to get to it, but that's all it comes down to, isn't it? Pure, blind faith.

But faith in what exactly? you seem to know, but I'm still not sure.

Is it just faith in an all powerful being? Well I can do that. I can believe that there is an all powerful being who loves me and would never let anything like eternal damnation happen to me. Even if I don't know what this being is or worship it in any way, I'm still safe. In fact, even if I curse and ignore and revile this being I'll still be forgiven. After all, I am nothing more than a stupid, hairless monkey. (Cute, but stupid) And an all powerful being would love with a perfect, unconditional love. So there you are. I can do what I want, say what I want, and think what I want without fear because I have faith that somewhere, something that I can't comprehend loves me.

Satisfied?

You're not are you? Because you know that here's more to it than just believing in god. You know that I have to be saved be jesus.
Well that is something I'm not so sure of. You see, I've never met the man and he's certainly never tried to introduce himself to me.

But you have a solution to that, don't you? The holy bible! That's why it exists, isn't it? So that we'ld have testimonies of christ's works and through those testimonies be able to come to know him.

You spent a great deal of time defending the bible and you made some good points. The problem is, in the final analysis all the NT really says is that there were a bunch of people who were convinced that there was a guy called jesus who they believed was the son of god. What about the miracles? The prophesies? The resurrection? As you said, there are a lot of things in this world that defy logical explanation. I have experienced tarot readings, ESP and witch craft. Should I automatically believe that these things are all true? Should I expect you to believe in them just because I do?

I have no idea what happened 2000 years ago or what may have influenced the gospel writers to write what they wrote.

I do know that when I read the bible I do not find answers. I do not find enlightenment. I do not find anything that I want to have faith in. I have been told that only someone who is filled with the holy spirit or the holy ghost or who already has faith can actually understand the bible. But if I need the bible to know jesus so I can have faith, where do I get the faith that I need to know the bible?

You seen to imply that I'm just supposed to have it, or force myself to have it. But if I don't know jesus and I don't understand the bible then we're right back where we started from - what is it that I'm supposed to have faith in?

I think I know what it is. I see it behind every one of your posts: how you want to help us, how you've personally experienced demons and angels and miracles, how other churches misunderstand god's plan but you can show us the way.

Its you! You want us to have faith in you, CC the almighty!

Yes, I know you've said that you're not perfect and you want us to have faith in god, but that's just smoke and mirrors. Because, what's going to happen when we come across something on this path to salvation that doesn't make sense? What happens when we read a bible verse that fills us with doubt? Are we supposed to listen to our own thoughts - or to your explanations.

As long as its you telling us who god is, what god wants and why we're better off doing what you say god says we should do, then its you that we're believing in, not god.

(Oh, by the way, you know all that mocking and insulting you said you've gotten from people on this site? Well this is kind of the reason why - you see, you're not really fooling anybody.)

Well, I'm not interested in having faith in you, or your personal revelations or your sincere, holier than thou ideology. Show me a book that I can read without an interpreter that will convince me that there was a christ. Show me heaven and hell. Send Jesus over to my house so I can speak to him face to face. If you can't do these things (even with god's help) then you have nothing to show me that I haven't already looked at and discarded.

webmdave said...

Fear, death, gloom, destruction, judgment, plague, pandemic, bla, bla, bla...

For those who think things are worse now than they've ever been before in history need to familiarize themselves with a library. Globaly, things are NOT worse than they've ever been before.

The lives of human beings have never been a bed of roses, but it's been significantly worse, and every time it's gotten worse, the gloom talkers start predicting the end of the world.

I won't go on. Blest be Ignorance—the tie that binds.

webmdave said...

Pissed-off anonymous said: "don't have children...demon filled...A woman does not even think of such repulsive things to say."

This is interesting. A woman who thinks like Brigid is demon-possessed, shouldn't reproduce, needs help, and so on.

I wonder if the writer meant to imply that a man who thinks like Brigid is just being a man?

I'm not sure if Brigid is being insulted, if women are being insulted, if men are being insulted, or all three are being insulted.

Maybe it's just my intelligence that is being insulted from this post. Perhaps the anony-nony-nonsensical writer just insulted herself (himself?) by opening his or her mouth and revealing himself (herself?) to be a fool.

Anonymous said...

webmaster,
Have you ever lived during these hard times on earth? Survived a pandemic or two in your day,have you? Well the difference is, the difference between any other time in history and now,are the people. Can you imagine a big disaster nationwide or worldwide? Yea,New Orleans handled there situation pretty well.That was one city and what reaction people have to stress,Imagine the whole country running around with guns, panicked, robbing and raping like they did there.Our society is spoiled and can't handle hard times.They could I suppose, just deny that they exist.

Anonymous said...

You christians who left comments have, as always, utterly failed to present any ideas that would persuade us ex-christians to go back to your mind-fuck cult. You'd better pray that your monster god doesn't send you to eternal hell fire for being such pathetic evangelizers.

brigid said...

NO, I am not insulted. I rolled on the floor and damned near shit my sweats. The insult of a christian? I would be more offended by the bark of a puppy.

anonymous, or however you are, I happen to think that I turned you on and you went to the shower and pulled that thing out of its socket. Don't lie to me, you born-again twerp.

And I am not the one who needs to scrub.

Anonymous said...

Actually , I believe that you do need a scrub or some pepto bismol because it looks like you have some trouble controlling your bowels! You have done alot of writing on this site about peeing in your pants and crapping in your pants.Are you a real old incompetent woman or are you always passed out drunk? I just don't hear adults that talk about soiling there pants as much as you do.No,I know that all this human waste talk should be a turn on,but being a real woman, I have a husband to take care of all that. Go buy some depends for crying out loud! I doubt anyone get's turned on by you.Your probably fat and ugly,and like to pretend on here that you are something attractive since nobody can see you. You come across as gross and nasty to me.

Anonymous said...

quote "[I know that you meant well. I tried to talk to the people on this website before a few weeks ago, and just wished them well and left it alone.The more I tried to help them, the more they insulted me. All you can do is plant the seed]"

This statement clearly shows how out of touch christians are with people as well as reality. It also shows that they are unable to read,understand,comprehend or even care to. Knowledge and logic are foreign to them. It is not a seed they are planting here, It is a steeping pile of crap.

brigid said...

Hi again. Something that cc wrote took my attention (5/12, 2:00 AM) We "did not look hard enough, or looked in the wrong places". This reminds me of a posting in the WM's anti-testimony. Those of you who have read it know that he spent years looking for answers, going to the churches, reading the theologians, and all to no avail. Then someone had the gonads to ask him "Did you really search for the answers?"

You see, no matter what we do or say, the fundie is going to re-define the salvation process to put us in the wrong. If god is real, and if he wants to have this "relationship" with us, then a simple prayer, with the sincerity we are capable of, should be all that is needed. If that jesus of yours is honestly waiting to receive us, we should not have to "search". That would amount to salvation through our own efforts, not through grace.

But invariably, the fundie says, "no-no-no-you-didn't-do this-and-you-didn't-do-that." You all keep giving yourselves away. You preach grace, but none of you believes in it. Is it because you cannot accept it?

anonymous, I just can't get over you. No, really. Don't you know any girls, or boys for that matter. Look, dummy, this is just the way people talk; it's chatter; it's blarney.

And this is just the most pathetic thing about religion: that the human male is reduced to a weakling.

south2003 said...

Hey brigid, Annony found your "pun intented(s)" offensive....lol

Anony, are you a christian? How about turning the other cheek and allow brigid to bitch slap you!

brigid said...

Well, I'll be dipped in shit!!!! anonymous is a woman! Baby, your post came in just as I was writing my last one. What a comic you are! Listen, hot stuff, if the conversation of real human beings is offensive to you, then go back to your snake-handlers and be with your own kind. I'm sure rural tennessee is where you're comfortable.

To answer your gross, vile, disgusting christian insults, I am 32, 6 feet tall, and slender. Thanks to my Irish ancestors, I have red hair and blue eyes. I have small tits and I shave my box.

I love it when good honest hate comes out. Really I do. I love it when christians hoist their true colors. I laughed until I pissed my Wranglers.

Anonymous said...

oh brigid, did I lead you to believe that I was trying to debate religion with you, actually I am at my sisters house for a visit and she and I was reading this stuff that People were posting and she wanted to give you some God talk, I was just so discusted by the hell between your legs comment that I felt like responding. The only thing I said that you must see as religious,is that you must be demon filled,which even an athiest should believe that after reading your insane comments. I do not hear anyone elase talk about the weird stuff that you talk about. I think that you are probably in need of a strait jacket,and go ahead and try to use my mean talk against the christians on this website that are trying to help you idiots.I didn't talk to anyone but you,because you are a disgrace to clean,classy women.I'm glad that you found it necessary to tell what you do to that "box" as you call it. Another classy move. I hope that box is locked up for extermination.Your 32,I would have thought by the street hooker slang you talk,that you were arond 19, living at home,highschool dropout,crackhead,with pimples all over your face,and a reader of romance novels with the "Mitress". oh,how original. You say you were on a trip tp the beach because of your depression over childhood church torture,At32,still holding on to issues from your childhood? You were probably missing for a while because you were in the mental ward.Your probably 6 foot tall alright, but weigh 350 pounds.I hope you roll around and loose control over your bodily functions over this since that's what you enjoy doing.I will not be back. Goodbye and ps. lay off the crack pipe for a while!

Anonymous said...

CC, if you're going to continue to spew your broken-record Fundie bullshit, could you at least take it to a it to a forum thread?

It's become really tedious trying to follow your repetitive back and forth banter in a big long column of text. Aside from the fact that no one here wants to hear your crap, we can't even follow where it's going.

south2003 said...

cc,

Don't unload your dung in here expecting us not to question it. You came here with your subjective truth, your belief and not one lick of evidence of a god.

JimA asked you some questions and man! What did you give us???? You gave us a freakng sermon from a blood thirst book.

brigid said...

Okay anonymous, the fun's over. You aint heard filth yet, motherfucker.

About "holding on to issues from my childhood". Listen, you spiteful, rancorous old swine, I have learned how to deal with my issues. I deal with my issues by accepting the love and help of my friends. It is your kind who have failed to grow up, still on your knees for your jew-god. I can teach you better things to do on your knees. It is you, and your kind, who have failed to deal with your fear and guilt. It is you sick, helpless, wasted weaklings that blubber out their thanks to the jewgod for not sending them into hell as they deserve. Talk about my bodily functions--you make me want to puke.

And about my being in a mental ward: I sure as the fuck was. It was called St Francis and I was born into it and there I spent 16 long years with this pack of fruitcakes who sat around talkling to their jew god, chewing crackers and calling it the body of christ and sitting in a confessional telling a priest that they had impure thoughts. Your goddamned right, I was a fucking nut.

And you said I talked like a whore. Some of my friends are whores and they wouldn't share the same side of the street with ball-garglers like you. You better stay with your husband because you couldn't peddle your bony ass for a roll of nickels.

And you said you won't be back. This I gotta see. You are drawn to me like a moth to a fucking flame.

Anonymous said...

See, it's comments like the Anonymous 11:24 a.m. post that makes me EXTREMELY happy not to be a Christian. And exactly why I left.

I was raised Catholic.. was a Christian for 18 years. I got so sick of the hateful comments, the hypocrisy and the narrow-mindedness that I left Christianity. It was like a HUGE burden was lifted off of me. I felt 100% better. Why WOULD I be so interested in such a religion where such hateful, idiotic comments are tolerated? Why would I want to be part of a religion simply because of the fear of hellfire and brimstone?

Many state they are not hateful, they are there for the way God makes them feel. Uh huh. I'm sure some Christians are really good people and some truly believe that but the majority don't. Even my aunt and uncles, who are the nicest people you ever met.. they are Christians. I thought them harmless nice people until I overheard my uncle talking to someone about how Jews and "homos" will be burning in hell while we're up in heaven, reaping the rewards of God. Yep, really good, honest, loving people, huh?

P.S. I know this isn't exactly a nice comment. But don't you find it strange that most of the Christians that post here can't spell for shit. And the non-Christians seem to be educated, wordy individuals. Could be that once you are EDUCATED, you see the falliblity of Christianity? Wow!

Anonymous said...

It's always a good day at exchristian dot net when the invisible imaginary God sends in one of his racist dogs to condemn an individual that he created and chose their path.

Shannon said...

Why do you, believers, skulk here? This website is not some abstract test that your god has sent to you. If you stick around, the only thing you are going to get is an ass whooping. You’ll either go away whimpering: “You guys are mean and you don’t want to believe the way that I do.” Or you’ll become belligerent and foul as the ass whooping commences. Not one of you has ever stuck around without getting pissy.

You are the guest here and you’ve brought the rack of lamb to the vegetarian picnic. No matter what kind of gravy you put on it, it is still rack of lamb. We all had the rack of lamb and we don’t like it. Some of us have had it with every type of gravy or dressing that can be had on it. It is unpalatable no matter how it is dressed up.

We live in a world that when push comes to shove, most people who are pressed into a corner will confess to an ideology merely to save themselves from being a social pariah.

The only people you, believers, have been surrounded by are your amen-brothers and others who have passively agree with you. When you come in here and read the information on this site, it is outside your thinking box. There is no way you can comprehend it at least not from your starting point.

Really though, this information isn’t for you. It is for ex-Christians (and like mind folks). It has naught to do with you. Nothing, zip, zilch.

Bottom line is if your great, all-powerful god standing alone can’t speak for himself, WTF do you think that you have that can change our minds?

J. C. Samuelson said...

Once again, we are shown the light of Christian love through Anonymous postings containing language that wavers between expressing the desire to pray for our souls and spewing vile hatred and accusations.

And of course, there's that victim complex again:

"What I realized after debating on this website for a couple of days is that I can see how in the last days, christians will be killed for their faith in God."

You know, my first impulse was to disagree with this assessment. Of course, it's not true now. However, I think with the kind of rancorous shit these Christians spew out of their filthy, hate-filled, loathsome mouths it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Sooner or later, some Christian will say some garbage like this face-to-face with someone willing to administer some good ol' fashioned frontier justice, and wind up either dead or maimed for life.

Of course, these Christians would probably welcome the opportunity to be a martyr for Jesus. Sound like anyone else we know? Osama, maybe?

Anonymous said...

When Christians don't answer questions asked & instead become (horribly) preachy, I figure they're breaking down. They not only have NO true answers, their heart's probably beating hard & fast as they try to convince themselves of their great faith by preaching to others. Prophecy > Some day CC will be in here giving CC's ex-timony. CJ-R

brigid said...

Kids, I gotta be away from the keyboard until Monday. I hope Little Miss Couldn't-Give-It-Away comes back.

Bye for now and take it easy.

south2003 said...

LMAO!!!! These hypocritical piss-tians are so deceitful. It’s not even comical anymore. First, they tell us how their gawdddt saved them and bless their little hearts, now they have the love of jesssssssssus and we should also. They’ll go on to say that they were just some wretched person and if it wasn’t for the saving lucky charm of gawdddddt, no telling where they would be or what they would have become.

The moment you don’t buy their goddamn dead man on a stick story, all hell breaks loose (pun intended).

They become the most vile, foul mouth, SOBs I have ever met. Should we expect better? NO, of course not. They adhere to a belief system that is just the same.

south2003 said...

"What I realized after debating on this website for a couple of days is that I can see how in the last days, christians will be killed for their faith in God."

Is there a book somewhere that shows one how to skin a fundie cat? NOooo But bet your ass the book you read mandates, and on top of that tells how and what objects to use to kill unbelievers.

Jim Arvo said...

CC: "So you think I am crazy."

My exact parenthetical remark was "I've got to admit, you're starting to sound like a bit of a nut..." after you claimed to have seen angels with your "physical" eyes, and been attacked by demons. I think that was a rather measured reaction to such claims, particularly when they were offered so matter-of-factly.

CC: "The notion that I see what I want to see is a two way street. You don't see it because you close your eyes to it. Your not looking."

That's either really bad paraphrasing, or you misunderstood me. I said "I know full well that belief colors subsequent thinking..."; the word "colors" here is synonymous with "influences". And, I was specifically including myself in that (as I am a human, after all), so your reaction was a non sequitur.

CC: "Am I to believe that none of you, with histroy in the church have ever seen one positive example of a life changed for the better because of Christ?"

Did somebody say that? I think there have been many benefits of religion, and Christianity in particular. As to whether those benefits outweigh the disadvantages, I'm not at all convinced. I think it more likely that on balance it is a negative force in society, but I readily concede that my assessment is based on many subjective factors, and very little hard data.

CC: "Why are you so oppsed to eveything I say? Why the anger? Why the mocking? I have not come with anger or insults or mocking....

I'm not quite sure who you're addressing, but I have no a priori desire to contradict you. When visitors come here with a fairly blatant agenda to spread their religious ideas, and do not seem to appreciate who they are addressing, or what this site is all about, I tend to critically examine their rhetoric and point our fallacies, biases, etc. If you had stuck to ideas that you could support logically or empirically, or simply respected the fact that we disagree with you, I'd have little to complain about. I feel no anger toward you, and I have no need to mock you. It would be terribly convenient for you if I did, for then you could focus on that instead of what I'm telling you. My message to you, which I'm going to state plainly and calmly, is that your religion is NOT established truth; your religion, like thousands of others, is a belief system created and propagated by man. Each religion is touted by its adherents as absolute truth, and is guarded by a layer of "sacred" thinking--i.e. insulation from critical evaluation. I will gladly explain why I believe that this also pertains to you and your religion, and why you are probably better off if you can break its spell.

CC: "I come speaking the truth."

Here I will correct you. First, you are speaking what YOU BELIEVE to be the truth; but, like everyone else on this planet, what you are actually offering is opinion. Second, the opinions that you offer (thus far) seem to be lacking any foundation; hence, they have very little value as rational discourse.

CC: "This is about rebellion. People don't want to do things the way other people or God tells me too, so they hate God and hate his Chruch...."

I'll correct you again. "This" is about THINKING. Nobody hates your god, or is rebelling against your god for the simple reason that we think she is mythical. It's rather difficult to hate something you don't think exists. As for rebellion... need I explain that one?

CC: "And it's about pride. Human pride, angels pride...it's all the same. It's nothing new. Lucifer knew God was real, walked with him, and then turned against him because he wanted to do things his way."

Okay, you continually make these assertions with nothing to back them up. How do you know that it's about "pride"? How do you know that Lucifer or god exist, or what either of them "knows"? Unless you can establish some kind of factual foundation for these stories that you are telling us, they are no more credible than a Brothers Grimm fairytale.

CC: "If you had gotten free of your past and pain that you blame on Christianty you would not still be on this web site. But your still chained here, chained to your pain."

That's a lovely example of an "ad hominem" attack. Rather than address the arguments that I've put forth (or answer ANY of the questions I've asked you), you instead attack me personally. That's a fallacy, because even if I were in some kind of "pain" (and, of course, you have no way of knowing one way or the other), it would not necessarily have any bearing on my arguments. I suspect that it's simply an excuse to ignore what I'm saying to you.

CC: "You still hurt, and your still looking for answers, and you still have a sence of gulit, and know that somthing is not right deep down insdide of you...that all is not well."

You just invented a fairly elaborate "just-so" story. It's rather ironic, actually, because you are demonstrating exactly the kind of thinking that produces religions in the first place. No doubt you actually believe what you are saying here, and you will gladly pass it on as "the truth" to others (who may then pass it on as well, with elaboration), but you actually have NO IDEA whether any part of your story is true. You have not grounded any part of your story in objective fact. This is another thing I'd like to convey to you, if that's possible: Just because you FEEL that something is true, it does NOT mean that it's true. Unless you can come to grips with that, you will forever be hampered by an inability to sort fantasy (such as religion) from warranted belief (such as science).

CC: "But you can truly find peace with Christ in this life and the next. And you can see good works perfomed through you that effect the world in a positve way. And life can be better."

I believe I've had a positive influence on many people who I've worked with and taught over the years, and I did not need any religious creed to do so. I think intellectual honesty is a great virtue--one that I strive for myself, and one that I try to inculcate in others. In my opinion, the most dramatic negative influence that religion has is to thwart critical thinking and hence undermine intellectual honesty. So, I rather dramatically disagree with the sentiment that you expressed above.

CC: "Talk to Jesus a lot. Talk to him about eveything. Talk to him about your pain. Talk to him about your problems. Talk to him about your anger. And then listen."

If such a man existed (and that is by no means clear), he is now dead. So, your admonitions are all based on the rather fantastic assertion that this individual is still available for conversation. No doubt you believe this is so. But why should I believe it? How can you distinguish your fantastic claims from those of any other person who claims that they can talk to dead ancestors, or animal spirits, or aliens?

CC: "If you have been wronged by the church than I want to try and right that wrong."

I've never been wronged by any church. I reject your religion because I have studied it extensively (along with many others), and find that it is indistinguishable from pure fantasy. Its claims do not hold up to scrutiny--EVER. Not a single one. It is continually propped up by the most abysmal thinking I have ever encountered, and is replete with contradictions and nonsense. For those reasons, I deem your religion no more "true" than Mithraism, for example.

CC: "I urge you to seek God again with eveything inside you and see if what I have spoken is true or false."

Many here have done exactly that, and have even believed that they could communicate with god/Jesus at some point. But then they came to the realization that they were creating that experience for themselves--it did not come from some external agency. By the way, have you ever communicated with Krishna? If not, maybe it's because you have not tried hard enough, or went about it the wrong way--i.e. by trying to "test" him, rather than putting your faith in him. What say you?

CC: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving' For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them." The Book of Acts. This is your condition Jim. 2000 years ago people were just like you."

That's extremely rude and condescending. It's also a blatant fallacy (another ad hominem attack). You have not addressed any issue I've raised, and you have not answered a single question I've put to you. Yet you have the audacity to suggest that I do not "hear" or "understand". Shall we take a vote to see which one of us is "hearing" and "understanding"?

CC: "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who supress the truth by their wickness, since what may be known about God is plain to them because God has made it plain to them...."

Romans 1:18-19 is an excellent example of a pernicious meme. In effect, it places the blame on non-believers for not believing. This is exactly the type of thinking that leads to dangerous bigotry. Rather than accept the fact that others can rationally and honestly reach conclusions different from your own, you are urged to view us as "wicked". I find that very sad and disturbing. This is one of many reasons that the Bible is a badly outmoded set of beliefs. In the 21'st century, we should have left that kind of provincial thinking well behind--but it's still with us, thanks to religion.

CC: "What it comes down too is this: Jesus Christ came to this world, lived a perfect life, influncing the planet more than any single person before or after, and then was killed in a most horrible fashion and three days later rose from the dead. History records this."

You say "history records this". Many of us here have studied that "history" rather extensively. Have you? What have you read about the history of your religion? I'll ask again: Have you read any books that are critical of Christianity? If you had, you would realize just how weak the historical evidence is--in fact, it's virtually non-existent. If you want to debate me on that, start by listing what you think is the BEST historical evidence for *any* supernatural claim of Christianity. Please be specific (i.e. don't say "The Talmud". I want chapter, verse, translation, etc.)

CC: "As for the accuracy of what was written in the NT manuscripts Aristotle's dictum still applies: 'The benefit of the doubt is to be given to the document itself, and not arrogated by the critic to himself.'"

So, have you read any other "holy" books? Have you read the Koran? Have you read the Book of Mormon? Are you willing to accept everything that they report as factual until proven false? If so, we can go through some of the claims. I'd love to hear how you disprove them.

CC: "The writers of the New Testament lived in the time that they wrote about, they lived in the places they wrote about, and they give plenty of evidence of this, such as the beginning of the third chapter of Luke,..."

Which was written by whom? You realize that ALL of the gospels were written anonymously, right? They fit the genre of hagiography, not history. They are replete with midrashic invention. There are other books filled with such fanciful miracles, yet nobody takes them seriously. Why is it that out of all such books you choose to believe the gospel accounts (and, no doubt, just the *canonical* gospels)?

CC: "The writers of the NT were witnesses of what they wrote..."

Please support that assertion. For example, please point to ONE passage that was written by a person who claims to have SEEN Jesus--not as a *vision*, but as a human being.

CC: "Since the people they wrote for knew about what they were writing, knew what had been taking place concerning Jesus Christ and the apostles, the writers of the NT wouldn't have been able to lie without getting caught...."

This is an old fallacy. It deftly ignores the empirical fact that legends DO grow in the presence of people who could easily discredit them. It happens CONSTANTLY, even in a world dominated by mass media. Were things different back then? If so, I'd like to hear your rationale.

CC: "So since Jesus Christ existed, and I cannot prove that the witnesses of him in the NT are false, I must believe that any man who would first claim to be the Son of God,..."

First, the existence of Jesus is not firmly established. Second, there are no eyewitness testimonies in the Bible (unless you count "visions"). Third, if you accept everything that cannot be definitively disproved, then you must worship an entire pantheon of gods, monsters, UFOs etc. Fourth, the "claims" that Jesus made are STORIES of such claims, much of it being midrashic invention, much of it referring to non-existent prophecies, etc. etc. Your case is far from solid. There's barely a thread that remains once exposed to critical analysis.

Okay, I can't waste my entire afternoon on this. I think you get the picture.

Anonymous said...

Wow....that got heated fast.

Brigid, sorry about the way that person was treating you. that most certianly was not Christ like behavior. We know that Jesus associated with prostitutes and we know he never condemed them in that way. He who has not sinned can start chucking rocks...You know the story.

Well, it come down to this. Jesus taught us to love our enemies, forgive people when they wronged us, to give to the poor, to love one another, to be humble, and to obey a good God.

Anyone who is a follower of Christ and knows God will do these things. Anyone who claimes to be a follower but does not follow is not a follower of Christ. ANyone who claims to love God but hates another person does not love God or know God.
I am sorry that things went bad like that. It was not my intention to make enemies of anyone or to cause anyone to fight with anyone else.

As for me not answering the questions asked of me...
Well, I did answer some...Others I did not have time to get too. I will attempet to remedy that. But I would like to point out that I asked questions in earlier post which no one answered either.

"How did you rule out Krishna or Buddha? Or Mithra, or Osiris, or Adonis for that matter?"
In some of the mission fields I have worked in I have seen men of God go up against witch doctors and win. I have had to work personally agains the spirits sent against some young boys I was watching over at a camp. The name of Jesus overcame the power of the enemy. My personnly experince lined up with those of men whom I trust and can share their own examples of how God over came supposed heathen gods. Which where in fact demons.

"And there are countless frauds, right? We've all seen that kind of stuff on TV. I think it shows how credulous many people are. Can you point to any objective evidence that such healings are anything more than a con job?"
I was refering once again to personal experinces. I have personally prayed, hands on, for people with demons. I have been healed from various heath problems and had pain disapper after being prayed for. Once agian I am not alone in this and have many close friends with similar experinces.

"You always have the option of critically examining your own perceptions. In my opinion, if you place any of these perceptions of yours beyond the reach of critical enquiry, then it is all the more reason to doubt that they are what you think they are."

I have criticlly examined my experinces during times of doubt and come to the conclusion that Jesus Christ is the son of God, the Bible is true, and God is very powerful and wonderful.

"Various string theories posit different numbers of physical dimensions, yes. Eleven dimensions is a prime contender right now. Are you suggesting that your god in hiding in one or more of those extra dimensions?"

What I am suggesting is that science allows for things beyond the understanding of the five sences.

"But what "debate" are you speaking of? On the existence of your deity? The truth of some specific Christian dogma? The reality of your experiences?"

The reality of my experinces which proves to me that Christ existes and is teaching in the Bible are true. That does not prove anything to you...but that's what we were talking about. What I was asking if for Jim to explain what things things mean if they did infact happen to me. Which they did. He was unable to answer my question just as I knew he would be. The reason I asked the question is because he was asking me to consider the possiblilty that Christ is not who he says he is. That is clearly not a sound option for me.
Hope that covers it.

Now Tigg13...On to your comments.

I said all you have to do is believe. Which is true since it impossible to please God with out faith, the righteous will live by faith, and faith is the key ingredident for what come next: living a true Christian life.

I do preach grace, you are right. But the mistake you make is you think grace means mercy and forgivness. It does not. Grace is divine impowerment. It is the power from God to live the way he wants us too live.
This is why Jesus died. To pay for our sins so we could be made right and holy in God's eyes so that the Holy Spirit (whom we recieve my faith) could come and dwell in us. Impowering, and guiding, and teaching us. This is the key that so many miss. I am not saying simply believe and then go on living the way you lived with out God. Of cource I am not saying that. What would be the point? Who would even want that? I want you to have a joy filled, adventure with Jesus. I want you to have more than a dead religion. I want life for you. This life come through constant interaction with God in heaven. The Holy Spirit is needed for this.

You stated that I want you to have faith in me. No. From the start I have said over and over to seek God for yourself. I knew you would not believe me. I knew I could not proof with good arguments that what I was saying was true. I want you to have your own relationship with Christ, as your proof. Not with a human as your teacher but with the Holy Spirit as your teacher. When you have a doubt or fear about the faith go to the Holy Spirit, not to me. He is a Living God and he can speak. But he does not usually speak to those who hate him or don't trust him, or don't believe he exists, or indeed, who do not fear him.
You think what I mean when I say search is compare God to other religions and read critical articals about him. It's not what I mean. Seeking is just praying to him, asking him to show you things, and teach you things, constanly. Be in prayer all day long. At first this will be hard but in time it becomes easy.

Then to further seek God don't just sit in a uncomfortable pew listing to a preacher. Get up and go and do what he told us to do. Go into the mission field. Go to where the healings are happeing, go to where the demons dwell and kick them out. Go. Jesus told us to go. This is seeking. And do it in the company of Christ through the Holy Spirit. The mission field, the battle ground, is where you will see things that will strengthen your faith.

Also, it seems to me that the larger issue many of you are facing is not that you don't believe God is real. It is that you don't like God anymore. You are angry and bitter about things people did who claimed to be following Christ. But if someone does somethign contray to the teaching of Christ they are not follwing Him. So you can not judge God accroding the actions of men who do not represent him. But if men act like Christ then you have no reason to be angry at them and you will be hating them without cause.
Many of you are mad at God because you do not feel his ways are just. Once again I will state that it is man's ways that are not just. God has been doing his job for a long time...I know I can trust him to do it right even if everything does not line up with my human way of thinking.

I would like to point out also that children who are disipled by their parents often make the statment, "that's not fair." But in fact the parent knows what they are doing and they are being just. It's hard for us to understand at times.
God has been fair to you today though. I have come back here to tell you once again that God is truth and that if you follow with all your mind, body, and strength you will trully live.
I hope that clears some things up.
God bless.

P.S. someone made a comment saying that if I found them a book that convinced them of the truth of Christ that did not need a translation they would be most thankful. (although those where not at all there exsact words.)
Well I can reccommend a few Christian books on the subject that are very easy to understand. "More than a Carpenter by Josh Mcdowell" was very good. I recently finished "Cracking Da Vinci's Code" by James L. Garlow and Peter Jones. It was good, if you intrested in the subject. Another good one I am reading is "Practicing His Presence" by Brother Lawrence and Frank Lauback. These books all have very good insights into some of the things we have been talking about. But like I said, it is important that are number one teacher is the Holy Spirit and not a man.
Oh and, you asked where you get the faith, which you are lacking. That's simple.
"Faith come by hearing and hearing by the Word." That means the word of God himself. The bible...and the word from the direct mouth of God. You have heard enough that you already have faith. You just need to build on it and break down the layers of doubt. How do you do that? By constanly talking to God and asking him for help. God is a living God and if you turn and call on him he will answer. He promised that. It has never failed me when I pressed on, it will not fail you.
If you give up fighting, then you have lost.

Alright, that' a long post script.
God Bless again!

Anonymous said...

Uh Jim....
You missunderstood.
I was not refering to your remark on me being crazy or you being angry. I did not start to respond to your remarks until the section appropriatle begun with the phrase "As for Jim..."

I was refering to the Litthum remark when I talked about the crazy stuff. As for the angry...that is somthing I have detect from a number of sources on this site. And I'll get to the rest of your article shortly.

Anonymous said...

Posting at x-christian is starting to be fun. Reminds me of the old days (a year or two ago) when I was a regular poster at christiansareus. I have changed a bit since then, I'm now interested in Oneness and Consciousness, but the core of my spirituality was there already, my strong conviction of the truth of causal determinism...

CC, I was a believer like you at one time, but I became more and more aware that it would be hypocritical to claim to be a believer and not shout it from the rooftops as they say. In other words, bug people with it a lot. I didn't want to do that without being one hundred percent sure. Also, there were several issues I couldn't resolve. What I did was I went to an atheistic discussion board and had people help me. I had for a long time only been studying christian materials so it was time for a change. I wanted to know what atheists had to say, and this time I REALLY wanted to know. They were a bit nasty because I asked if bible prophecy didn't show that the bible is god's word and they must have mistaken it for preaching. Anyway, they helped me and I persisted inquiring and now here I am, having been faithless for more than two years now. The arguments are CLEARLY on my side, and therefore one can't say I'm taking any risk. Somewhere the old conditioning is still inside me, but you can have fun with that too. What I did before I left the fold was to ask myself whether I could gather a store of good arguments with which to convince an intelligent nonbeliever and of course have myself a more stable faith. I couldn't and I don't regret it. Not any more. I think I've been where you are now. I can tell you deconversion is not necessarily a bad thing at all. You don't have to do it but it just might enrich your life.

Jim Arvo said...

Okay CC, thanks for the clarification. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Anonymous said...

Why would anyone want to be an atheist?

Freedom, that's why.

Freedom from guilt and fear. The antidote to the mind virus? Critical thinking, really studying, questioning, learning from both sides of the fence. When you can open your mind, think for yourself, and seek the truth, you will know what I mean. Sadly enough, I have found that most christians are not willing to do that. They stay in their own little narrow minded world and never look beyond it. This makes me sad.

This is the madbuni saying hi to all. I have not been posting for a long time, but I check out exchristian everyday. I still love this place. I have been concentrating a lot in the political area lately and yes, I am still as mad as ever! LOL. Take care, Madbuni

Jim Arvo said...

CC: "What I was asking if for Jim to explain what things things mean if they did infact happen to me. Which they did. He was unable to answer my question just as I knew he would be."

You asked "Can you explain to me what I have seen?" That's a ridiculous question, as I have no information to base such an assessment on. If I was in the room with you when you "saw" angels, for example, there is a possibility I could offer a mundane explanation for what you saw. But how do you propose I do that based one the few sentences that you're written? I am not in the habit of inventing stories that go well beyond what I can objectively verify.

CC: "The reason I asked the question is because he was asking me to consider the possiblilty that Christ is not who he says he is. That is clearly not a sound option for me."

Again, that's a very poor paraphrasing, and it betrays a continual misunderstanding on your part. I asked you to consider the possibility that your deity is mythical--i.e. not existing in reality. And of course it's an option for you. I can rationally consider the possibility that my wife does not exist, and I can rationally enumerate the reasons why I would reject such a notion. You can (if you choose) consider what evidence you actually have for the existence of your deity, and you can consider alternative explanations. That little exercise may, in fact, help you see that you are resting your entire case on fanciful interpretations.

CC: "...From the start I have said over and over to seek God for yourself....

And you have yet to explain what it means to you to "seek" (unless I missed it amid you long posts). If you mean to "be open to", or to "study", or to "consider earnestly", I have done those things. Others here have gone well beyond that, devoting much of their lives to *worshiping* and *believing* and *praying*, only to find that there is nobody home. If by "seek" you mean an active avowal of some deity, then what you ask (from me) is nonsensical. I cannot believe in or avow something for which there is no evidence of any kind. That is not only illogical, it's irresponsible.

CC: "...If you give up fighting, then you have lost...."

I'm glad you realize that, CC. You must keep fighting to understand, so you can break the spell of your religious cult. Your religion is one of thousands, your "savior" is modeled after numerous more ancient god-men (Attis, Adonis, Krishna, Osiris, etc.), and your god is one of the most murderous and vengeful entities ever imagined by man. You can do better than that, CC. We, as a society, can do much much better. But you need to break the spell first. I hope we can help you to do that.

Anonymous said...

I was a Christian believer for almost a quarter of a century. I wasn't born into it, my family were Atheists, proudly so, I was not exposed to hypocricy or cruel treatment from other Christians, almost all the selfless altruistic behaviour I've been on the recieving end of has come from Christians, some who were in the mission field and drove out demons et al,I was not torn between living in the world and being a Believer, not tempted to 'sin' (although some of the antheist penned science and philosophy books I found hard to reject as anti-Christian and therefore not suitable!) and yet I do not identify as a believer any more,because it is ALL MADE UP! Not because I wanted to give up my salvation because of Christians behaviour or because god never answered my prayers. That would be silly. God is silent or Christians around you are too noisy, but you know that eternal salvation awaits if you run the race and keep the prize in mind, so you keep running. To give up a salvation you know is true for peevish reasons is the ultimate in cutting off your nose to spite your face (only it's a lot more painful and lasts for eternity). It is not true, Theistic belief no matter in what form is without any logical foundation. If god existed I would have had evidence of him, proper face-to-face evidence. It says that god is the Good Shephard who goes after the single lost sheep. When I had my first doubts, I bombarded heaven with prayers and supplications and nothing came back. The priests of Baal had nothing on me! I wept and begged(didn't cut myself though!)Other Christians around me said that I should just pray harder, and fast and await on god's word. Nothing at all. I don't mean via the good works of people around me I mean unmistakable evidence in god's being real. I repented, I fasted, I did good works, I read books, I asked god directly, nothing at all told me that he was real. Nothing. Eventually, only the fear of going to hell kept me in line. I eventually turned all the Christian stuff in because it wasn't logical and reasonable to carry on saying I believe in god and the bible, in eternal life, because it just is not true. I even downgraded into being a Deist for a while but even that isn't based on reality. And it was the best thing I have ever done!

Anonymous said...

Okay Jim. This is for you. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I was speaking to a number of people in my writing at the start.


First of all, you claimed that the writers of the NT only seen Christ in visions. This is false. In 1 Peter, the author cleary identifies himself as, "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ," in the first line of the letter. Two verses later
states,"In His great mercy He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,"
All four canonical gospels claim that Peter was a disciple of Christ and seen Christ resurrected.
And here Peter supports that claim.
Not a vision.
In 2 Peter he continues in 1:16-18 "We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying,'This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.'
We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain."
Again, not a vision, but an eyewitness account.

Furthermore, the Gospel of Mark is affirmed to have been based on the preaching of the apostle Peter as recorded by his interpreter, Mark.
The writings of Papias, bishop of Hierapolis, (AD 130) who was a friend of the Apostle John during the apostle's last years, states:
"The Elder [Apostle John]used to say this also:'Mark, having been the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately all that he [Peter] mentioned, whether sayings or doings of Christ, not, however, in order. For he was neither a hearer nor a companion of the Lord; but afterwards, as I said, he accompanied Peter, who adapted his teachings as necessity required, not as though he were making a compilation of the sayings of the Lord. So then Mark made no mistake, writing down in this way some things as he mentioned them; for he paid attention to this one thing, not to omit anything that he had heard, not to include any false statement among them.'"
Also, Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons, (who was a student of Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna, a disciple of John the Apostle)wrote: "Matthew published his Gospel among the Hebrews in their own tongue, when Peter and Paul were preaching the gospel in Rome and founding the church there. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, himself handed down to us in writing the substance of Peter's preaching. Luke, the follower of Paul, set down in a book the gospel preached by his teacher. Then John, the disciple of the Lord, who also leaned on his breast himself produced his Gospel, while he was living at Epesus in Asia."

This last entry shows that John was eyewitness to Christ and wrote the Gospel of John. Again, not a vision. And it shows where both Mark and Luke got their material from.

As for the legitimacy of the NT writings, again and again historians have attempted to prove them false and they have yet to succeed.
Archeology has already oudated the accusations that the NT is unreliable and wasn't written until late in the second century. Archeological dicoveries of papyri manuscripts( the John Ryland manuscript, the Chester Beatty Papyri, and the Bodmer Papyri II) have shown that there is no longer any solid evidence for any book of the NT being written after AD 80.
Archeologist Sir William Ramsay, a student of the German historical school and a critic of the NT, wrote:" Luke is a historian of the first rank...this author should be placed along with the very greatest of historians." He conceded that the Book of Acts could not be a fabrication of the second-century as formerly believed, but must be a mid-first-century account.

Of course the Form Critics say that the material of the NT was passed down by word of mouth until it was finaly written down in an altered form, ie folk literature. Unfortunatly, the critics definition of the period required to develop oral tradition alterations does not fit in the time frame that the NT was written in (fifty years).
Archeologist William Albright wrote," Only modern scholars who lack both historical method and perspective can spin such a web of speculation as that with which form critics have surrounded the Gospel tradition...a period of twenty to fifty years is too slight to permit of any appreciable corruption of the essential content and even of the specific wordings of the sayings of Jesus."
It was also customary in the Jewish religion for a pupil to memorize a rabbi's teaching. And Jesus' early disciples were Jews.
So if you think the contents of the gospel were altered by people who were not there and did not know what took place, I'm afraid modern historians would have to disagree.
So, the man Jesus Christ existed. And his followers recorded his teaching.

And 20,000 ancient manucripts confirm this.

Anonymous said...

Jim
I can not say that God does not exist anymore than you can say your wife does not exist. You interact with your wife, I interact with my God. I know he is real because I just spoke with him a few minutes ago.
That is all.

Anonymous said...

PP----if you spoke to Biblegod and "know he is real" then you most certainly do NOT have, or need, "Faith" in said god. And we allllllll know what happens to people who DON'T have "Faith" in God, don't we? Muah-hahahahaaa!!!! LMAO!!!



BTW, what language does "God" speak?... English?...Spanish? Hebrew? Do'h!

Anonymous said...

S.L.,
You do bring up an intresting point which I have not mentioned before.

Spiritual blockage.

Somtimes there are things in our lives which block us and keep us from getting a good read on God.
I would suppose yours is unforgiveness. If you want God to answer you it is imporatant to forgive any people who have wronged you or be reconciled with any people who you have wronged.
If you forgive others their sins than God will forgive you your sins.
First be reconciled with your brother than bring your offering.

You said:
"almost all the selfless altruistic behaviour I've been on the recieving end of has come from Christians, some who were in the mission field and drove out demons et al,I was not torn between living in the world and being a Believer, not tempted to 'sin"

Now I am going on rather limited information here but it sounds like you have unforgivness towards the Christians who hurt you. Although the spiritual blockage could have been caused by another source.

When doing delieverance we often find that we need to search deeply into someone's past to find the thing that is keeping them bound up and then take the axe to the root, as it where.
Many times Christian will be operating well for years and then suddenly come against something which destroys them.
This can be because of generational curses, it can be because of sin in our lives that we have not dealt with, it can be for a lot of reasons.

Think of story where Mosses is heading to Egypt to set the prisoners free and God meets him at an Inn to kill him because Mosses had not circumsied his child.
Mosses was operting as a servant of God, had been chosen to do something by God, was on his way to do it, and then was almost killed because of somthing in his past that he had not dealt with. Exodus 4: 20-26
(it should also be noted that circumsion is no longer required by God because of Jesus...)

Deception and doubt can keep us from believing, hatred and unforgivness can keep us from recieving, sexual perversion rots our soulds and minds...ect. These things wear us out and can spring up suddenly out of no where in a persons life.
Now each case is different but one way to combat this is to seek a trusted Man or Woman of God who is flowing in the gifts of Spirit (it is very important that they have spiritual discernemt) and then explain to them your situation and ask them to pray for you. This often takes more than one attept.
I know of a man who went to many preachers and men of God trying to get free of a sexual sin that tormented his mind. Some of them gave him totally stupid advise and all of them where unhelpful. Finaly he happend upon a good friend of mine you faithfully declared, "you can be free from that tonight." And the man was.
When spiritual things go wrong and don't work according to how we think they should or according to how someone has taught us it is often the temptation to simply give up and throw out the faith. I have found that there is always a solution to every thing and a reason for everything that happens and if we search long and hard enough we can find the answer and break the curse.
It is so important for Christians to live like warriors. To be trained and on the alert. If we sleep we fail.
Thank you for listening to me.

Anonymous said...

He speaks in any lanugage he feels like, Boomslang.

Anonymous said...

If you are a Christian.Please answer my questions.As you are commanded to do so by your book.

Is your Jesus the saviour of all men especially those who believe.?

Will your god have all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.?

As I have forgiven those who have sinned against me.Does your god now forgive me.? If so.Why am I still going to hell.?

Who does the saving.?1. Jesus.?
2.Myself forgiving those who have sinned against me.? A Christian telling me to believe in Jesus.?

Let your yes be yes and your no be no.Why.?

I found this site not so long ago.
www.jesusneverexisted.com
Can a warrior Christian please inform me of any errors that they may come across.
Remember
Test all things.

webmdave said...

I can answer one of your questions F&E: you save yourself.

If you're a Bible toting fundamentalist then you are saving yourself.

Why do I say that?

Simple. To be saved, you must repent, you must sincerely say a sinner's prayer (say that last part three times fast!), and you must ask Jesus into your heart.

Since you must do these things, then you are saving yourself.

See?

Anonymous said...

Romans 10:9 says
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Yet if the sinner does not forgive those who have sinned against him.God does not forgive him.So he becomes Unsaved.
Is this true.?

If a homosexual confesses Jesus as lord and believes that God has raised him from the dead and has
forgiven those who have sinned against him.Is the homosexual saved.?

If the Roman Catholic confesses Jesus as lord,believes that god has raised him from the dead.Has forgiven those who have sinned against him .Prays to the virgin Mary and has not been baptized by submersion.Is the Roman Catholic still saved.?

Is the Mormon saved by confession and belief.?

Anonymous said...

"He speaks any lanugage he feels like, boomslang."



No, no, no......I want to know, SPECIFICALLY, what language "God" spoke to YOU in just 45 minutes ago, or whenever you chatted with "Him" last. I mean, is God's voice, like, DEEP, raspy and authoritive?.....or is it more like a smoooooth calm and collected tenor? Alto? Girlscout?

Hey!.... the next time will you record God's for us?!?!?! Waiting.

Anonymous said...

Whoops!.... I got so excited at the thought of hearing God's voice on tape, I forgot to write the word "voice" in my request! LMAO!

xrayman said...

I am not an ex-christian because I've never been a believer. Why? Because my mind would never allow myself to believe a God exists. I must admit I Pascal Wagered my way though life for quite some time, acting as if I believed, and doing a whole lot of praying just in case. Now after spending the last several months seeking the truth, I have become a totally enlightened Atheist. I am so glad people like CC come to this site spewing their rediculous doctrine because it allows folks like Jim A and the webmaster to shine through with their brilliance. I can't understand why you are wasting so much of your time here CC, but you are sure bringing out the best in Jim. Thanks for all your time you are putting into this debate Jim, you are a fucking genius.

Jim Arvo said...

CC, I'll give you a few replies no, maybe more later. Concerning the epistles of Peter, according to F. Beare (author of "First Epistle of Peter"), it is "far-fetched" to suggest that "Peter" (the author of the epistles of Peter) had literally seen Jesus. As E. Doherty puts it, "The idea of believing without seeing is a common one in the New Testament, especially in Paul, and a check of those passages shows (e.g., 2 Corinthians 5:7, Romans 8:24-25) that the idea is simply: we do believe in someone or something we do not see. No more than this is meant here in 1 Peter. In fact, one of the remarkable omissions here and elsewhere in the epistles is that no comparison is ever made between those who 'do not see' Christ, and those who presumably had seen him during his ministry on earth. When Paul says (2 Cor. 5:7) that 'faith is our guide, we do not see him,' there is no suggestion that this does not apply to everyone, apostles, prophets or anyone else alive today. There is no suggestion that many fortunate people did in fact recently have the privilege of seeing Christ in person with their own eyes." I think Doherty makes an excellent point.

As for, Papias's book "Interpretations of the Sayings of the Lord", it no longer exists; bits and pieces can only be inferred by quotes and such from other authors. But, according to Eusebius, in his "Ecclesiastical History", "...Papias himself, according to the preface of his volumes, in no way presents himself to have been a listener and eyewitness of the holy apostles, but teaches that he had received the articles of the faith from those who had known them,..." So, we are already many levels removed from anyone who was a potential "eyewitness".

CC: "As for the legitimacy of the NT writings, again and again historians have attempted to prove them false and they have yet to succeed."

That's complete nonsense. You are clearly only reading what conservative scholars have to say--that is, those who begin with a large set of presuppositions about the divinity of Jesus. There is broad consensus among more liberal scholars that NT is largely midrashic invention; created by "inferring" what must have been so, according to the OT passages (often jarringly yanked out of context). The passion story is clearly a midrashic construction, for every element can be mined from the OT, and virtually no new information is added; hence, its paucity of detail. Have you read anything by Hyam Maccoby, or Randel Helms, or Robert Price, or G. A. Wells, or Earl Doherty, or J. D. Crossan? If not, I'd suggest that you've been listening to the sound of one hand clapping.

CC: "Archeology has already oudated the accusations that the NT is unreliable and wasn't written until late in the second century."

I'll wager a large sum of money that what you just said is the opinion of a small collection of conservative scholars. As with absolutely every argument over the Bible, there are at least two sides to consider--often more. I *never* take such a claim at face value; I always want to know what that is based on, and what evidence there is against that position. You mention John Rayland. As far as I know, his manuscript dates back to 130 AD. How do you get it back to 80 AD?

CC later said "...I know he is real because I just spoke with him [god] a few minutes ago."

Please describe his voice. Did he speak in full sentences? Was he sitting across from you? Would anybody else in the room be able to hear him? Can you conjure him at will? Finally, are you willing to take a challenge? I have something I'd like for you to ask him, and report back. Will you do it?

Steven Bently said...

CC wrote;

the Gospel of Mark is affirmed to have been based on the preaching of the apostle Peter as recorded by his interpreter, Mark.
The writings of Papias, bishop of Hierapolis, (AD 130) who was a friend of the Apostle John during the apostle's last years, states:
"The Elder [Apostle John]used to say this also:'Mark, having been the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately all that he [Peter] mentioned.


If the Bible writters were divenly inspired, why did Mark need an interpreter? Peter should have known what to write without asking Mark what he said, since God is not a respector of persons.

Since God speaks to his diciples including you, CC!

What did God tell you CC, or do you need an interpreter?

Let me guess, God loves you and all sinners! ah how original???

The one big fatal flaw in your explanation CC, is the word "INTERPRET".

You're sunk CC, down like the Titanic!

Jim Arvo said...

Hi xrayman,

I'm glad to hear that you've made your way into the light. Congratulations on reclaiming your mind. Refreshing, isn't it? And it only gets better, because you can learn anything you want, consider any possibility, without fear of inadvertently undermining some sacred dogma. And, by the way... thanks for the kind words.

Anonymous said...

Hey Forever and Ever.

On Salvation:

James 2:14
What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
James 2:17
Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of youselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

1 John 5:1-5
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the Father, loves his child as well. This is how that we know that we love the children of God, by loving God and carrying out his commands. This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

Galatians 5:5
For we through the Spirit, by faith are waiting for the hope of righteousness.

Galatians 5:14
For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement,"You shall love your neighbour as yourself."

Galatians 5:16
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

Phillipians 2:12
...continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

Phillipians 3:12
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Do not be decived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkars, nor revilers, nor swinders, will inherit the kingdom of God.
Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justifed in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Sprit of our God.

1 John 2:1-5
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says,"I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandements, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected.

Mark 1:8
"I baptize you with water, but He(the Messiah) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

Luke 18:24-27
Jesus looked at him hard and said, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God. Indeed it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God."
Those who heard this asked, "Who then can be saved?"
Jesus replied, "What is impossible with men is possible with God."

1 John 3:3-5
And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself just as He is pure. Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.

1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 3:23
This is His commandment, the we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Romans 6:1,2
What shall we say then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer.

Romans 5:21
so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ.

John 14:16-17
"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you."

John 16:7-
"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you."

1 John 4:1-2
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.

Galatians 5:13
For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn you freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

Galatians 1:8
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned.

Galatians 6:9
Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

Romans 8:9
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indded the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyoue does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Basically
Believe that Jesus is the Son of God who died and rose again.
Repent of sin, which means to turn from sin, but if we do sin, we can ask for forgiveness.
Be baptized in the Holy Spirit Water baptism is a declaration of faith in Christ but it is not the baptism Christ is talking about when he says, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved;" Mark 16:16
Here he is talking about Holy Spirit Baptism.
Now walk in the Spirit through faith. This is God's work in you, leading you away from sin and into loving one another.
Faith. Holy Spirit. Love.

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

In other words, we are not being asked to practice religious ceremonies or keep the Law. For through following the Holy Spirit, the Law will be fulfilled.
Paul say the law is summed up in one commandment, to love one another, and this is fulfilled through faith in Jesus Christ and through following the Holy Spirit.

I don't want dictate to you exactly what the Bible means or to argue doctrinal lines, but I hope that with these scriptures, and if you will believe and ask the Holy Spirit to show you what they mean, He will lead you to the truth. I pray this helps.

Anonymous said...

Hi servant
Thanks for the reply.
Can you answer my questions.?
First Question.
1.
Is your Jesus the Saviour of all men especially those who believe.?
yes or no
2nd Question
2.
Will your god have all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.?
yes or no
3rd Question
3.
As I have forgiven those who have sinned against me.Does your god now forgive me.?
yes or no

please answer the first 3 questions so that we can continue.

Thanks for your time.

Anonymous said...

Someone said they did not know why I wasted my time with this...
Well, preaching the Gospel is never a waste of time, even if no one listens. And I also do not consider anytime spent with you guys as a waste of time. It has been fun and rewarding. There are

This is for Ben

Peter was preaching in Rome. Mark was translating what Peter was saying to the people, since Peter did not speak the native tongue, being that he was an uneducated fisherman. That was my inference anyway.

And to Others...
As for the questions concering God's voice and such.
Well, first off I said I spoke with God. I never claimed God said anything to me in a audible voice, because he has never done that and I would be a liar if I claimed it. God has spoken to me in a "still small voice" deep within me. But he does not seek on my demand. I am not his boss and he is not a magic eight ball, as some people would suppose.
I do not claim to be the sole voice of God on earth or that I am a prophet of God. I encourage people to seek what God would say to them themselves. "Say" does not always mean to speak audibley when we are refering to God. He speaks to us in many ways. Through dreams and visons, through the written Word of God, through prophets, through the "still small voice" of the Holy Spirit, through pictures that come into our minds, words or phares that come into our minds, through people speaking in tounges and others interpeting what was spoken, and sometimes, yes...in an audible voice.


Jim,
if you have somthing you want me to pray about for you I would be glad to. But if what you are proposing is a test or demand for a sign from God I am afraid I will not be of any use to you. God has given mankind many signs of his reality throughout history. It insults him when unbelieving people ask for more.

It should also be pointed out (once again) that when I say seek God or seek proof of God I do not imply that someone should ask for a sign or test God. Only that they should "seek God's face". Which means to meditate on him, to follow him, to love him, to talk to him, and indeed to listen to him. To walk with him. In this the proof of God will be made clear because of the changes in your own life. Although there will always be room for doubt for those who desire to doubt.

As for your claims against the NT...Jim, I find no more reasons to believe them than you find to believe mine.
It appears we have come no closer to solving this puzzle than countless who have tried before.

I have asked you to reconsider following my God and stated many reasons, which have been widely rejected.
You have asked me to reconsider belief in my God and devotion to him.
I will not. God is my greatest and closest friend. He is the savior of my soul. He is my King, and my loyalty lies with him.
I started off my writings by saying that nothing compares to the greatness of knowing God. After all this time and all these words that statment is clearer to me than ever; for the peace of God has been with me through this endeavor and his friendship has become all the clearer.

And since you seem to hold the opinion of more 'liberal' scholars, I have a list of 'conservative' scholars I would like you to consider:
Millar Burrows
John A.T. Robinson
Simon Kistenmaker
A. H. McNeile
Paul L Maier
C Sanders
F F Bruce
Sir Frederic Kenyon
J Harold Greenlee
John Warwick Montgomery
Lawrence J McGinley
Robert Grant
Will Durant
Joseph Free
A N Sherwin-White
Sir William Ramsay

Yours Truly
CC

Anonymous said...

Hi CC
Since you present yourself as the Christian warrior.Can you answer my simple basic questions.?

1.
Is your Jesus the Saviour of all men especially those who believe.?
yes or no
2nd Question
2.
Will your god have all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.?
yes or no
3rd Question
3.
As I have forgiven those who have sinned against me.Does your god now forgive me.?
yes or no
Thanks for your time
in season and out of season

Anonymous said...

Forever and Ever,
We must take the entire Bible in context, not take a few lines of scripture and confuse them.

Jesus has the potential to be the savior of all men, especially those who believe. But not all men will be saved and not all those who believe will be saved.
Even the demons believe and they tremble. Also many will come to Him and say, "Lord we cast out demons, ect" and he will say..."depart from me I never knew you."
This is seen clearly through out the NT.


God desires to have all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
Will all men be saved...no. Will all come to knowledge of truth...I think in the end it will be made clear...but to late for some.


The third bit about forgiving applies to people who are already followers of God. It is important for them to keep forgiving when wronged so their hearts will not become bitter and hard. God will forgive us if we forgive others...but we must ask for God's forgiveness.
If you ask me, "can I ask forgiveness from God but avoid Jesus?" I will say no. He is the Way the Truth at the Life...no one come to the Father but through Him.

Getting caught up on pointless speculation is not profitable. The scripture has been provided for you to seek out what must be done to live for God if that is you intention. If you are trying to find the least you have to do to get into heaven I would not advise it.

I believe that if I confess Christ and follow him he will confess me before the father. But if I turn from him and do the things which are not pleasing to him (thus denying him) he will deny me.

Some ask silly questions like, "what if you confessed Jesus and believed in your heart and then sinned a day later and before you could repent got hit by a car and died. Would God still let you into heaven?"
This is foolishness since God knows when even a feather falls from a crow or when an tree falls in a forest. He chooses when he takes his people home. It's all in his hands and he can be trusted to do with his world what is right.

Most importantly is the fact that only God knows a man's heart. I do not know a man's heart so it is not my place to pass judgment on anyone. So listing scenarios and asking me to act as judge just does not work. I am not judge, God is. I can not speak for him on this. All I can do is point to scripture and point to God.

Anonymous said...

As for finding error in
www.jesusneverexisted.com

I found one right there in the title, since Jesus did exist.
Case solved.

Anonymous said...

Hi CC
I have not confused anything. I have asked simple questions.

The scripture 1 Tim 4:10 clearly states
Jesus Christ,the Saviour of ALL men especially those who believe.
It does not read
Jesus Christ,the Saviour with the potential to save all men especially those who believe.

You have added to this simple statement Why.?

Jesus has the potential to be the savior of all men, especially those who believe.

More scripture
"I exhort therefore, that ... supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for ALL MEN ... for ... God our Saviour ... will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

The scripture clearly states that God will have all men be saved.
Yet you say that not all men will be saved.You pray the lords prayer,may your will be done.Then go against your gods will.
As you stated
God desires to have all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
Will all men be saved...no. Will all come to knowledge of truth...I think in the end it will be made clear...but to late for some.

Your answer to the 3rd question.
The third bit about forgiving applies to people who are already followers of God.

So are saying that it is of know benefit for others to forgive unless they are believers in Jesus.?

So to sum it up .You have a Saviour with the potential to save all men.And a god who's will (desire) will not be done.
Also a doctrine of only forgive others if you believe in Jesus.

So your Jesus died on the cross
for only those men who have the potential to be saved.Is this true?

As for anonymous.
Provide proof out side of the bible that the historical Jesus Christ existed.
Do not be fearful.Take the time to read all of the content of the jesusneverexisted site.You may learn something.

Anonymous said...

I Tim. 2:1-6: "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men... for this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus; Who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified (proven, demonstrated, fulfilled) IN DUE TIME."

When the word all is used in the bible does it mean ALL CC.?

Anonymous said...

One of our anonymous christian friends has enlightened us all with this little tidbit: "As for finding error in www.jesusneverexisted.com
I found one right there in the title, since Jesus did exist. Case solved."

Wow! Scholars and theologians have been debating the existence of Jesus for years, with no real verifiable evidence forthcoming. But some anonymous poster declares, "Case Closed." Well, that's enough for me. I am thoroughly convinced.

Convinced, that is, that many christians are ignorant and mind-fucked beyond repair. Sheesh!

xrayman said...

C.C. I read this quote somehwere on this site, and I added it to my collection I keep on my computer. In reguards to those who claim God speaks to them........


"Why doesn't God do anything which is clearly distinguishable from a delusion on the part of one or more believers? Why are God's objective characteristics identical to those of something that does not exist?"

If God were to speak to me how would I know? The main reason I am an Atheist is because I have spent literally hundreds of hours in deep meditation seeking God. Not necessarily the Christian God, but any God. After years of trying, I have given up. With all my efforts I got nothing, nill, not even a little twinge. I have had other Christians suggest that it's Satan getting between God and I. That little red guy with the pitch fork could be the reason I am not finding God. Imagine that. No I don't think so. I believe the reason I am not finding God is because he either isn't there or simply doesn't give a shit.

webmdave said...

In CC's version of Christianity, Jesus doesn't really save anyone. Jesus offers a salvation plan, but t is up to everyone to accepet and follow the plan. Ultimately, following the plan is what saves a person, not Jesus, he's more like a salesman. And, since following the plan is what saves people, people save themselves.

Anonymous said...

xrayman - My experience is identical to yours. I have spent years trying to find god and studying various religions, especially christianity. I have prayed and meditated. I have asked christian friends for help. I have searched my "soul" to try to determine if I was somehow "blocking" the christ from coming into my life (a concept that I find very insulting now). I would love nothing better than for a wise, caring god to exist. But now I am convinced that any type of deity s probably unlikely and that the horrible cruel god of the bible most certainly is a work of fiction.

Steven Bently said...

CC said;

I interact with my God. I know he is real because I just spoke with him a few minutes ago.

Then later CC said;

Well, first off I said I spoke with God. I never claimed God said anything to me in a audible voice, because he has never done that and I would be a liar if I claimed it. God has spoken to me in a "still small voice" deep within me.

CC what a religious weasel you are! You've not fooled anyone here, The voices and visions that you see and hear are in your brain, they are the grandiose expectations that you've grown up to expect and believe from being indoctrinated by the religious dogma.

How come Allah does not speak to you? Could it be because you were not raised to believe in Allah?

And spreading the gospel is spreading your accepted lies, trying convince others that your truths are what other people are supposed to believe and if they reject your truths, then you can you and your imaginary Jesus can cast them into your mental imaginary Hell.

Then CC said;
God desires to have all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
Will all men be saved...no

But it was left up to Jesus to incorperate a salvation plan, but now it's left up to humans to accept the salvation plan that was written down on papyrus over 2000 years ago and has been translated over 1600 times and intrepreted by the other diciples from one language to another language and it's all the inerrant word of God.


Then a servant says that the holy spirit is what talks to people, Guess what? It's all so stupid, there's nothing to believe.

He quoted all those passages that was written by Opium Dope Heads over 2000 years ago, and yes they heard voices, and had vision and dreams and interpreted scriptures.

So what? They were on a grandiose mental fantasy mind trip, just like all christians.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Steven Bently said...

CC, How come you do not write down what God tells you and have it published for all the world to see? After all you're keeping God's word away from us sinners that may help us see the way since what God says to you is 100% from God, in your mind.

I mean surely God has told you something that no one has ever heard before, we need new information from God, we no longer consider what God told men over 2000 years ago to be valid, we need to know what God is thinking today or this year in 2006, surely you can inlighten us with something new that God has never spoken before and exclusively only to you, that we have never heard before.

Be not greedy and share with us the Gospel of God or Jesus spoken to you for today, and not 2000 ago when people thought that the world was flat and that God speaks to ones Heart, guess what, your heart has no ears, but people 2000 years ago thought so, how come God never knew about the brain? Could it be that the Bible writers had no medical knowledge about the brain?
Surely God, which you believe created the brain should have known about the brain, since the Bible writers were speaking through God or God through them.

Steven Bently said...

Annoymous of 9:22,

Your post tells more about you, than you tried to reveal about us.

Yeah go to your church on Sunday. I hope your phoney preacher does not try to rape you in the back room and be sure to bring along your money and put it into the collection plate so the preacher can have a great round of golf all next week.

You really psychotic help that you will not ever receive at any church.

xrayman said...

Marianas Trench,


Glad to hear of someone who understands me a little. I was in a religous/spiritual no man's land for most of my life. At least you folks who were once devout Christains had someting. For most of my life I was this lost person who couldn't ever find religion or God. I tried so hard, so many times and failed. I felt that since I couldn't ever find this God so many have claimed exists, that I was doomed. I went through life being scared because I felt that for some reason this God didn't want a thing to do with me, that did so much for others. Then I stumbled onto this website and discovered that the reason I have never found God, is because he doesn't exist. My subconscious mind knew all along. I have never felt so free and unshackled in my life.

Anonymous said...

CC, you hear voices...it's called a mental disorder...that, or it's called fooling yourself.

People like you tell us to have faith. People like you tell us to stop thinking with our minds and to think with our hearts. Well, if you think with your heart, before you know it, you'll believe that George W. Bush is really Bigfoot in disguise, Elvis is still alive and lives in an undersea compound with mermaids, leprechauns are plotting to take over the world, and you must wear tin-foil on your head to prevent the worldwide anti-Christian conspiracy from influencing your thoughts.

Other people with outrageous claims are certainly more logical and reasonable than religious nuts like you. Take UFO nuts, people obsessed with Bigfoot, or Loch Ness Monster lovers for example. At least they TRY to sound scientific...at least they TRY to provide hard evidence...at least they TRY to have rationalism in their beliefs. They may produce an occassional hoax, but at least they make an effort...you, on the other hand, have none of that, as you provide no hard evidence and just ask us to be close-minded like you and not think rationally. Just close your mind, don't question, don't think, and do whatever the Bible tells you to.

CC, I can be assured that if the Bible would tell you to jump off the Brooklyn Bridge, you'd probably hop in the car ASAP and drive to the nearest travel agency to book plane tickets to New York.

I'm too open-minded and too rational to be a fundamentalist Christian. And, most of us here are also too scientific, too rational, and too open-minded to be one either. Please go troll someplace else. While your at it, please see a psychologist about the voices in your head.

Anonymous said...

Hey, CC, Forever and ever, and Anonymous of 9:22 AM on 5/13/06, I found the perfect site for you:

http://zapatopi.net/afdb/

Anonymous said...

Anonymous of 922 says she doesn't care enough about the opinions of us "loosers" (sic) to bother using spell check, yet she goes on and on and on with her rant, mainly insulting the physical appearance of someone she has never seen. (BTW, Annoy Us, if using spell check is beyond your capabilities, maybe you could try an old-fashioned dictionary. In one of her responses to you, Brigit says she is "slender," but it seems this common two-syllable word is unknown in the world of trash-mouths such as yourself so you keep accusing her of being fat - just the opposite. And even if she were fat, would that somehow validate your hateful remarks?) I think it's pretty obvious who the real LOSER is here.

Anonymous said...

Hey forever and ever

1 Timothy 4:10
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men , especially of believers.

First of all, the Greek word for Savior is 'soter' which can mean, savior, deliverer, or preserver.
In the context of this sentence it means preserver, meaning that God gives life and breath to all things.
The Greek word for especially is 'malista' which can mean most, most of all, above all, etc.
The meaning of this verse is that God gives life to all, and moreover, eternal life to those who believe.

As for your second verse, it is God's will that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of truth, but He has also given us free will to do what we desire.
So it is the choice of every man to believe and to know the truth.
God will not make you know the truth, He presents it and gives you the choice to believe.
If He wanted to force you to believe, he could, but it is His will that you make that choice.

And the third verse:

The Lord's Prayer reads

'forgive us our tresspasses, as we forgive those who tresspass against us'

So if you forgive others, and ask for forgiveness, you will be forgiven. Of course, to ask for forgiveness from God, you must first believe in God, and you must believe in the right God, Jesus Christ, for belief in a false god will do you no good.

Make sense.

And as for how I know which God is correct, Jesus Christ rose from the dead, as recorded in the New Testament, which no scholar or historian has been able to 'prove' wrong.

webmdave said...

A servant said: "...the Greek word...which can mean..."

In fact, he said this twice. Notice he does not say, "does mean" but "can mean."

Am I the only one that finds it interesting that scholarly translators would use improper English words in translating the text of God's Word? Why choose misleading English words, when the context in the orginal Greek obviously demonstrates that a different English word would be more appropriate? Or could it be that A Servant is a little too full of himself?

Then he said: "As for your second verse...but He has also given us free will"

I wonder where in the Bible it says that God gave anyone freewill? or that it is His will that everyone makes certain choices? I can show quite a few places in the Bible where the exact opposite is clearly stated. Hmmm.

Anonymous said...

To Jim

F. Beare says the it is preposterous that Peter could have seen Christ, eh? So because he thinks it is preposterous, you think that makes him right. Unfortunately, he has only offered us his opinion. This is like a man standing up in the back of the court room and saying that there is no way the witness on stand could have seen what they seen, simply because the man does not believe what they seen.

As for Doherty's outlandish claims, Peter never says he believes without seeing, yet Paul does. This is because the Romans and Corinthians that Paul was writing to(your quote mentions Romans and Corinthians) had not seen Christ, and therefore had to believe without seeing. Peter, however, does not say that he believes without seeing, in fact he says the exact opposite. And you call him a liar simply on the grounds that you don't believe what he seen. But you can't prove he did not see it.
From my window I am watching two dogs play, but whether or not you believe me, you cannot prove that I am lying, unless you come here and see for yourself. With history we cannot go back and see it, so we must take what is handed down to us, and not suppose into what is written our own opinions that it could not have happened that way simply because we don't think it is possible. Can you prove that it is not possible that Jesus Christ existed and rose on the third day? Just because you have never seen it happen, does not mean it can't have happened.

Anonymous said...

Hey webmaster.

I did not say the translators used the wrong word. 'Savior' and 'especially' are the correct words. I simply explained what those words mean, particularly in the original language they were written in. It's not my fault that not everyone is educated to the point of already knowing these things. So I took time to explain them.

As for free will, of course the Bible shows that God is above the will of man, and can do as he wishes outside the will of man. But it also says that man must believe, and believing is a choice. God gives us and option. To King David and Solomon he said if they would follow him, their reign would prosper, their heirs would sit on the throne, etc.
'If' is a key word their. God can make any thing happen, but he also allows us to make the choice to do right or wrong, to believe, etc.

But you had some verses you wanted to show me?

webmdave said...

So if someone is not educated enough, he or she cannot hope to understand the Word of God?

Besides, all you said was "could mean," and "could mean." This amounts to saying, "might mean" and "I want this to mean."

As far as your "The Bible says..." please support your position with actual verses, not inferences based on your private interpretation of mythical sounding stories.

Anonymous said...

"why would anyone want to be an atheist?"

what one wants to believe has no bearing on reality. i searched for truth and found truth. the truth is there are no gods, christian or otherwise. i don't know how to more directly answer this question.

Anonymous said...

Servant said, "As for free will, of course the Bible shows that God is above the will of man, and can do as he wishes outside the will of man. But it also says that man must believe, and believing is a choice. God gives us and option."

Man MUST believe and believing is a CHOICE????? Isn't that a contradiction in terms?

How is believing a choice? I believe things that I know are true and for which there is verifiable evidence. But, I can't believe things I doubt, no matter how hard I try. And, I have tried very hard for nearly 30 years to force myself to believe the christian myth.

Some god you got there; you claim he gave us "free will" but apparently we're doomed for using it! What a load of crap!

webmdave said...

Saying you see two dogs playing the yard is not even closely comparable to saying an un-dead god-man is flying through the countryside.

If it is comparable, then I'm telling you that I'm having a nice piece of cake with a Mr. Sasquatch right now. He needs a shave and a bath, but other than that he's a quaint fellow.

Do you believe me? If not, why not?

Anonymous said...

Hey Ben

As for the Holy Spirit, yes He speaks to people, through prophecy and interpreted tongues, and the word of knowledge, and I am witness to this fact. I am not gifted in prophecy, or the interpretation of tongues, for the Spirit gives this gift to one, and another to another.(1 Corinthians 12) But I do speak in tongues, and am witness to prophecy and the word of knowledge. (When I say word of knowledge, I am not refering to the written word of God('logos' in Greek), but to the 'rhema' word. This is a source of confusion in reading the Bible, for English translations use only 'word' and people infer it to always mean the written word of God(the Bible.)(This is one area that I will admit that some English translations of the Bible do not present the most accurate representation of the original text. Some do better than others.) There are many verses in the Bible which actually refer to the 'rhema' word, which would refer to the unterances of a prophet speaking through the Holy Spirit, or the Holy Spirit speaking directly to someone. 'the sword of the Spirit, which is the word (rhema) of God,' Ephesians 6:17, is an example of this. So the power of the Holy Spirit is essential, as it is the weapon we use to fight the evil one. I am not saying this to make you believe, for I know you will not, but you will instead question my sanity. I say this though, so that you will know that I do believe what I am saying and I am not relying on the teaching of others, for the Holy Spirit is my teacher, and reveals to me the truth of the scriptures.
What I find disheartening is that the commentors on this site, with history in the church, do not seem to know the ministry of the Holy Spirit, and I admit it is not widely taught among the majority of churches. And this is why these people have fallen away from the church and have given up on God. They were never taught the truth. Indeed, the church has failed them, in not teaching them the true ministry of the Holy Spirit. The position of most churches seems to be that the Holy Spirit was only for the early church, and this is why these churches are dead and people have left them unsatisfied, having lost all faith in God. For who would believe in a God who cannot be accessed? And I will add that without the Holy Spirit, it would be impossible for Christians to love one another (fruit of the Spirit, Galatians.) Which explains the hurts many of you have suffered. Of course I am not claiming that Spirit filled Christians never make mistakes, because they do, but we will be judged by the fruit that we bear, and if we continue to bear bad fruit, we will be cut down,(Matt 6:15-23) So through the Holy Spirit we can begin to iron out are wrinkles, and truly begin to love one another and put others first, which is the whole point, isn't it. This sums up the teaching of the Scriptures. So if you have been hurt by those claiming to be of Christ, forgive them for bearing bad fruit, and for quite possibly not knowing God at all, and look to the truth. For if you know the Holy Spirit, He will take away your doubt and prove your faith, for the Holy Spirit is the guarantee that a person is saved. But first you must believe that their is a Holy Spirit, and you must then first believe that Christ sent him.
1 Corithians 2:13-14
'...which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.'

So if you do not understand anything I am saying, then you prove the scriptures to be right. And if you do understand, then again you prove them right. And if you understand, then the time has come to believe.

Anonymous said...

Hey Marianna Trench

Man must believe to be saved, but God gives him a choice.

Is that better? Not so contradicting now. Thanks for pointing that out.

Also, define verifiable evidence?

Anonymous said...

Hey webmaster

I'm still waiting for those verses you promised.

Anonymous said...

Hey all

I've got stuff to do today, but hopefuly I'll be back later.

God Bless, and Jesus love you.

See you later.

Anonymous said...

Servant: "Man must believe to be saved, but God gives him a choice."

Yeah, right, according to biblethumpers, the choice is believe or be doomed. But what I'm saying, and you're not hearing, is that you can't CHOOSE to believe. Tried it, doesn't work. Either you do or you don't.

Some people can talk themselves into "believing" things on blind faith (or claimng that they do). I can't. I have a critical mind and I seek proof. If your god would condemn me for being just as I am and using my mind (the mind that he/she/it supposedly created and knows better than I do), you can keep it because that type of god sounds like a monstrosity to me.

BTW, surely you don't need to ask what "proof" and "verifiable" mean??? Oh, maybe you do.

Anonymous said...

CC: we accept historical documents because the accounts they give are not absurd. A dead man coming back to life IS absurd.

You call the Gospels reliable, but in fact they contradict themselves in numerous ways, like the way they describe the circumstances surrounding the resurrection.

A very glaring error is that Luke gives Jesus´ birthdate as sometime during the tenure of Quirinius, while Matthew of course states he was born when Herod was king. Unfortunately these periods do not overlap and are in fact divided by about 10 years. Hmmm.

CC, you come across as a very convinced person. What do you have to say to people in other religions who are as convinced of the reality of their god as you are of yours, including visions and miracles?

Do you by any chance suffer from epilepsy?

Jordan: Wow, you sure stirred us here. You DO seem to be very young, judging from your suggestions.
Do you know how many religions there are, world-wide? About 5000, it is estimated. How do you know you have the right one? What if you are a good Christian child all your life, then you die and one of the following things happens:

-You discover you have been reborn immediately - as a cockroach.

-You find yourself in a burning Hell, surrounded by mocking and tormenting demons, there to stay for a million years before you are reborn - as a cockroach.

-You find yourself in a burning Hell, surrounded by mocking and tormenting demons who force you to drink boiling water. You´ll be here for all eternity.

-You find yourself in a dark, cold space, filled with panicked and screaming people. Drops of poison continuously fall down on you, causing terrible torment. There is no way out, because the wall of your dungeon is made up out of living snakes.

-You find yourself in a dark, cold space, surrounded by speechless, senseless souls. You feel you will remain this way for all eternity - moitionless, thoughtless and hopeless.

Any of these things and a thousand other might happen to you unless you cleave to a specific religion. So... what are you going to do?

Maybe you should do what WE did and use your brain. It took four billion years to evolve. It would be a waste not to use it.

webmdave said...

Here's some verses oh free-will servant:

God's ability to do and accomplish His will

i. Gen. 18:14, "Is anything too difficult for the Lord? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah shall have a son."
ii. Psalm 115:3, "But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases."
iii. Psalm 135:6, "Whatever the Lord pleases, He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps."
iv. Isaiah 46:10, "Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, ‘My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;"
v. Jer. 32:27, "Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh; is anything too difficult for Me?"
vi. Dan. 4:35, “And all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, ‘What hast Thou done?’"
vii. Matt. 19:26, "And looking upon them Jesus said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
viii. Luke 1:37, "For nothing will be impossible with God."
Chance occurrence-
ix. Prov. 16:33, “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.”
Human History - nations, times, boundaries, people
x. Acts 17:26, “and He made from one, every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times, and the boundaries of their habitation,”
xi. Psalm 47:1-4, “O Clap your hands, all peoples; Shout to God with the voice of joy. 2For the Lord Most High is to be feared, a great King over all the earth. 3He subdues peoples under us, and nations under our feet. 4Hchooses our inheritance for us, The glory of Jacob whom He loves.”
xii. Psalm 33:10, “The Lord nullifies the counsel of the nations; He frustrates the plans of the peoples.”

Human Birth - God grants offspring and descendents

xiii. Gen. 4:25, “And Adam had relations with his wife again; and she gave birth to a son, and named him Seth, for, she said, “God has appointed me another offspring in place of Abel; for Cain killed him.”
xiv. Deut. 10:22, “Your fathers went down to Egypt seventy persons in all, and now the Lord your God has made you as numerous as the stars of heaven.”
xv. Ruth 4:13, “So Boaz took Ruth, and she became his wife, and he went in to her. And the Lord enabled her to conceive, and she gave birth to a son.”
Human plans and accidents
xvi. Exodus 21:12, “He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death. 13“But if he did not lie in wait for him, but God let him fall into his hand, then I will appoint you a place to which he may flee.”
xvii. James 4:13-15, “Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow, we shall go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit.” 14Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. 15Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we shall live and also do this or that.”

Good and ill from God

xviii. Lam. 3:37-38, "Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? 38Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both good and ill go forth?"

Health and prosperity

xix. Exodus 4:11, "And the Lord said to him, "Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?"
xx. Deut. 32:39, "See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded, and it is I who heal; And there is no one who can deliver from My hand."
xxi. 1 Sam. 2:6-7, “The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up. 7The Lord makes poor and rich; He brings low, He also exalts."
xxii. Ecc. 7:13-17, "Consider the work of God, For who is able to straighten what He has bent? 14In the day of prosperity be happy, But in the day of adversity consider— God has made the one as well as the other So that man may not discover anything that will be after him."
xxiii. Isaiah 45:5-7, “I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; 6That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, 7The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these."
xxiv. Lam. 3:37-38, "Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? 38Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both good and ill go forth?"
xxv. Amos 3:6-7, "If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?"
What God arranges
xxvi. Rom. 11:8, "just as it is written, 'God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes to see not and ears to hear not, down to this very day.'"
xxvii. Mark 4:11-12, "And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God; but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12in order that while seeing, they may see and not perceive; and while hearing, they may hear and not understand lest they return and be forgiven."
xxviii. 2 Thess. 2:11, "And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false."
xxix. Rom. 9:18, "So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires."
xxx. Exodus 4:21, "And the Lord said to Moses, 'When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go."
a. See also Exodus 7:3; 9:12; 10:1; 11:10; 14:4 where God hardens Pharaoh's heart.
b. Exodus 8:32, "But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go."
xxxi. Exodus 14:17, "And as for Me, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen."
xxxii. Deut. 2:30, "But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today."
xxxiii. 2 Chron. 25:20, "But Amaziah would not listen, for it was from God, that He might deliver them into the hand of Joash because they had sought the gods of Edom."
xxxiv. Isaiah 6:10, "Render the hearts of this people insensitive, their ears dull, and their eyes dim, lest they see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and return and be healed."
xxxv. Rom. 9:18, "So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires."

Human nature- Total Depravity

A. Jer. 17:9, "The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it?"
B. Mark 7:21-23, "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23"All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."
C. John 3:19, "And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil."
D. John 8:34, "Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
E. Rom. 3:10-12, "as it is written, “There is none righteous, not even one; 11There is none who understands. There is none who seeks for God; 12All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one.”
F. Rom. 5:6, "For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly."
G. Rom. 6:20, "For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness."
H. Rom. 7:18, "For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the wishing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not."
I. Rom. 7:23, "but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members."
J. 1 Cor. 2:14, "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."
. 1 Cor. 2:1-5, Paul did not come by the power of human wisdom, but the power of the Holy Spirit.
i. 1 Cor. 2:6-9, Paul speaks God’s wisdom which the world does not understand.
ii. 1 Cor. 2:10, The Spirit of God reveals the sacred and spiritual things of God.
iii. 1 Cor. 2:11-12, Christians have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit of God, which is why the Christians know the things freely given from God.
iv. 1 Cor. 2:13-14, "which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. 14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."
A. Therefore, 1 Cor. 2:14 is not saying that the natural man, the unregenerate person, cannot understand God's wisdom, it is also saying that they cannot understand because they do not have the Spirit of God. This means that the unsaved cannot understand spiritual things because they do not have the Spirit of God.
K. Eph. 2:1, "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins."
L. Eph. 2:3, "Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."
. In this verse "nature" is the Greek phusei. It is the dative case (indirect object). This means that the text is not saying that we are by nature children of wrath because we sin. It is saying that we are by nature children of wrath.
M. 1 Tim. 1:9, "Realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers."

Human freedom

-- Libertarian freedom is the freedom to be able to equally choose good and bad in any given situation.
-- Compatibilist freedom is the freedom to act in accordance with our nature.
N. Deut. 30:19, "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants."
O. Josh. 24:15, "And if it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."
God grants and works salvation in us
P. John 1:12-13, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
. Being born again occurs not by the will of man, but of God.
Q. Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."
R. Eph. 1:5, "He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will."
S. Eph. 1:11, "also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will."
. Predestine is the Greek proorizo, it means...
. "to predetermine, decide beforehand; in the NT of God decreeing from eternity; to foreordain, appoint beforehand" (Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1995).
a. "to destine or decree beforehand; foreordain," (Webster's New World Dictionary, 1986, p. 1121)
b. "To predetermine or foreordain; to appoint or ordain beforehand by an unchangeable purpose," (Webster's Dictionary, 1828.)
T. Phil. 1:29, "For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake."
U. 1 Thess. 5:9, "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."
. "destined" is the Greek word "tithemei." It means, "to set, put, place; to make; to set, fix establish" (Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1995).
V. 2 Thess. 2:13-14, "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14And it was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."
W. John 10:25-26, "Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these bear witness of Me. 26"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. 27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
. John 10:11, "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep."
X. John 6:44, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
Y. John 6:65, "And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father."
. If no one can come to God without the Father granting it to him, then the person is powerless to come to God of his own free will.
Z. Acts 16:14, "And a certain woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul."
AA. Rom. 12:3, "For through the grace given to me I say to every man among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith."
BB. 1 Pet. 1:3, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."
CC. James 1:18, "In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we might be, as it were, the first fruits among His creatures."

God Predestine

DD. Predestination
. Greek Proorizo, Strongs # 4309. "to predetermine, decide beforehand; in the NT of God decreeing from eternity, to foreordain, appoint beforehand."
i. Proorizo, "which the NT uses only with God as subject, expresses the thought of appointing a situation for a person, or a person for a situation." (The New Bible Dictionary, Wheaton, Illinois: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc., 1962.)
ii. Predestinate, "To predetermine or foreordain; to appoint or ordain beforehand by an unchangeable purpose," (Websters Dictionary, 1828 edition.)
iii. Predestine, "To destine or decree beforehand; foreordain," (Websters New World Dictionary, 1986 edition).
EE. Acts 4:27-28, "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur."
FF. Rom. 8:29-30, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; 30and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."
GG. 1 Cor. 2:6-7, "Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; 7but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom, which God predestined before the ages to our glory."
HH. Eph. 1:4-5, "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will."
II. Eph. 1:11, "also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will."

God elects individuals

JJ. election is the Greek "eklektos." It is rendered as "elect" and "chosen." Strongs #1588.
KK. Matt. 22:14, "for many are called [kletos], but few are chosen [eklektos]."
. Kletos, "called, invited."
LL. Matt. 22:24, "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect [eklektos]."
MM. Matt. 22:31, "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect [eklektos] from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."
NN. Luke 18:7, "now shall not God bring about justice for His elect [eklektos], who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?"
OO. Rom. 8:33, "Who will bring a charge against God’s elect [eklektos]? God is the one who justifies;"
PP. Romans 16:13, "Greet Rufus, a choice [eklektos] man in the Lord, also his mother and mine."
QQ. Col. 3:12, "And so, as those who have been chosen [eklektos] of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;"
RR. 1 Tim. 5:21, "I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen [eklektos] angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality."
SS. 2 John 1, "The elder to the chosen [eklektos] lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not only I, but also all who know the truth,"
TT. 3 John 13, "The children of your chosen [eklektos] sister greet you."

UU. God hardens people's hearts

. Exodus 4:21, "And the Lord said to Moses, 'When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go."
. See also Exodus 7:3; 9:12; 10:1; 11:10; 14:4 where God hardens Pharaoh's heart.
a. Exodus 8:32, "But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go."
i. Exodus 14:17, "And as for Me, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen."
ii. Deut. 2:30, "But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today."
iii. 2 Chron. 25:20, "But Amaziah would not listen, for it was from God, that He might deliver them into the hand of Joash because they had sought the gods of Edom."
iv. Isaiah 6:10, "Render the hearts of this people insensitive, their ears dull, and their eyes dim, lest they see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and return and be healed."
v. Rom. 9:18, "So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires."

God softens peoples' hearts

vi. Deut. 29:4, "Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear."
vii. Jer. 24:7, "‘And I will give them a heart to know Me, for I am the Lord; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart."
The Lord directs people's paths
viii. Jer. 10:23, “I know, O Lord, that a man’s way is not in himself; nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.”
ix. Prov. 16:9, “The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.
x. Gen. 45:8, “Now, therefore, it was not you who sent me here, but God; and He has made me a father to Pharaoh and lord of all his household and ruler over all the land of Egypt.” – (Joseph in Egypt – His brothers, therefore, were not free to kill Joseph)
xi. Isaiah 44:28, “It is I who says of Cyrus, ‘He is My shepherd! and he will perform all My desire.’ And he declares of Jerusalem, ‘She will be built,’ and of the temple, ‘Your foundation will be laid.’”
xii. 1 Sam. 10:9, “Then it happened when he turned his back to leave Samuel, God changed his heart; and all those signs came about on that day.”
xiii. Prov. 21:1, “The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord. He turns it wherever He wishes.”
xiv. Psalm 105:24-251, "And He caused His people to be very fruitful, and made them stronger than their adversaries. 25He turned their heart to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants.
xv. John 1:12-13, “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
xvi. Dan. 1:9, “Now God granted Daniel favor and compassion in the sight of the commander of the officials.”
xvii. Rev. 17:17, "For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God should be fulfilled."

Does God affect human choices?

xviii. 1 Pet. 1:3, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."
Miscellaneous Verses
xix. Prov. 16:4, "The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil."
xx. Rom. 9:22-23, "What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory."

God Foreknows

xxi. Proginosko,
xxii. Acts 2:38, "this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death."
xxiii. 1 Pet. 1:1-2, "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure."
xxiv. 1 Pet. 1:20, "For He [Christ] was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you."
. KJV says, "Who verily was foreordained before the .... "
a. If God looked into the future to see what choice would be made, then who did He foreknow the death of Christ? Was it simply something that God looked to see if it would happen or not? If so, then God is not sovereign.

If God predestines us because he looks into the future to see if we will believe, then...

xxv. Then isn't He predestining us because He is seeing in us something that is motivating Him to save us? If our faith motivates God to save us, then it must have some merit in God's eyes, otherwise it would not motivate God to save us."
xxvi. Then God is looking into the future in order to learn. This would violate His attribute of omniscience. In other words, if God is looking into the future to see our choices, then this means God is constrained by time (otherwise He would not have to look into the future). The truth is that God is omniscient and knows all things all the time. He does not have to look anywhere, anytime to discover anything. To say that He looks into the future to see who would pick Him and then He predestines them is to say that God essentially is learning and adapting to the knowledge He gains in His future looking.

Questions

. Is God's will thwarted by human free will?
i. Is God's will limited by human free will?
ii. Can God fail at anything He intends to do?
. "God does not intend to bring about everything He values, but he never fails to bring about what He intends." (John Frame)
iii. Is the human will somehow independent of all other influences so as to be truly free?
iv. Is the human will somehow independent of human motivations?
v. If God does not influence a person's will, so as to allow him total freedom of will, then how is it that God draws the person? In other words, the drawing of a person is an influence upon the will.
vi. Does the human will have the ability to overcome various influences so as to make a neutral, objective decision?
vii. If God foreknows what someone will do in the future, is that person then free to change his mind or not?
viii. Is the "free-willer" using the doctrine of complete freedom of will as a paradigm into which God's character and actions must fit?

Conclusion:

ix. God creates the person, the will of the person, and the body of the person since God is the one who forms us in the womb (Isaiah 44:2,24; Ecc. 11:5), etc.
x. Since God knows all things, a person's free will is not outside God's knowledge.
xi. God puts that person in a particular place and time.

Anonymous said...

To all rationalists here:

I do think it is a good idea that we try to reason with and knock some sense and rationality into the minds of CC, servant, and Forever and ever, but it's a losing battle.

Evangelical fundies are like the Terminator: they can't be reasoned with, they can't be bargained with, they don't feel pity or remorse or fear, and they will never, ever stop until their mission is complete.

-They can't be reasoned with: self-explanatory. You can't debate a fundie. Eventually, it turns into personal attacks when they begin to lose.

-They can't be bargained with: Just look at all the kooks in the government. They get a bee up their ass about something and beat it like a dead horse.

-They don't feel pity or remorse or fear: This is a big one. True love, pity, empathy, and compassion are foriegn to fundies. They love to bash and antagonize freethinkers, Jews, Muslims, spiritualists, gays, women, blacks, you name it. Then again, if you are a fundie, you HAVE to have no compassion. After all, they really believe that 95% of humanity is going to burn forever at the hands of their sky-dictator Hitler/Stalin/Hussein/Pol Pot Biblegod.

-They will never, ever stop until their mission is complete: The mission of a fundie is simple...turn as many people as possible into brainwashed, narrow minded, joyless, prudish, intolerant chaps like them. Just look at this thread...why else do you think we've got over 130 posts in not even a week...because CC and servant just won't quit with their attempts at brainwashing.

Anonymous said...

Whoa...once again this is getting heated. We must not become so angry and argumentive but instead bear all things with a spirit of love and patience.

Leonard,
Okay...I have already covered that there are other supernatural force than manifest in various ways. These are fallen angels that have turned there back on God.
Okay, also...God's still rasies people from the dead today...as reported by my fellow Christians. This is hardly unusual behavior for God.
People have also walked on water in these modern times...you won't believe me...but I believe.

People also fly everyday...Many people in history would think this to be not possible either. But we know that man can fly because of his inventions. If man, who is nothing, can accomplish this, how much more can God, who is everything, accomplish the impossible?

To the Others...
First off I would like to say that if you are truly open-minded people than you should be able to consider that there are things you do not know about this world and do not understand.
When you look at a piece of human skin what do you see? Just a piece of skin right? But we know because of science that there is much more to that skin than what the naked eye can see. There are whole worlds with thousands of micro orginisms living and interacting with each other. We do not yet have the microscope that can see all those worlds. What we do know is that those worlds effect us. IN the same way the spiritual world, which can not usually be seen with the phyiscal eye, effects all that happens to us.
There are sounds that can not be heard by the human ear but can be heard by say...dogs.
There are sounds God makes that not all humans can hear either.
I do not have a microscope that can show you the worlds beyond our five scences but I can tell you that I have seen glipses into these worlds myself. I cannot and do not claim to have all knowledge or know why things happen the way they do. But I do that my God is real and I can trust him.

You say you have spent hours searching for God but never found him. Fair enough. But this statment is always followed by..."so I gave up" Or "this is because there is no God." I will argue that if you contuine in your search you will find God. You might consider this a vain pursuit...I do not.
I have also spend hours crying out to God for him to show me a sign in some specific way...This has never worked for me. But if I contuine to seek my God with patience, he always does find a way to communicate with me....and indeed show me things which are beyond human understanding.
If you become angry or impatient with God you will not get results.
And I also must restate that one of the best ways to search for God is to do the things he commanded us to do.
Preach the gospel, bind up the broken hearted, love one another, give to the poor, take care of the needy, set the captives free...etc.

If you are doing these things and following after God with all your heart and all you strength and all your soul you will be rewarded.

It does not require faith to give a glass of water to a thirsty child...which is what Christ commanded us to do.

Another problem is how most people hear consider God to be a total monster. They may believe he is real or could be real but they have no intrest in following him.
So I must ask, which of these commandments are you so opposed to?
Turn the other cheek.
If someone forces your to go a mile with them go two.
Love people.
Do to others as you would have done to you.
do not lie.
do not murder.
do not steal.
do not cheat.
do not be a hypocrite.
do Not worhsip other gods (which are in fact demons of pure evil...)
do not commit adultery
be humble...
be meek
be kind...
if someone asks for your coat give them your shirt too...
do not use foul language.

Oh maybe it's when we get into things like this:
do not be a homosexual
do not rape children
do not rape animals
do not have sexual intercourse outside of marriage

Well...did I hit a soft spot? It should be understood that according to the NT we are not to kill people who do these things but to love them and help them get free of their sin.

If you do not understand why God's wrath often comes against people it is because you do not understand the character of God.

If you read in the books of the prophets why God brings wrath on his people it is often because they are treating each other improperly. If you want to see what I am talking about you can read the books of the prophets yourself. (Book of Amos chapter 5 in particular)
God desire us to love eachother more than he desires us to practive relgious behaviours...such as fasting, attending sunday morning services, or praying. Yes...you read that right.(But he also requires that we love him and fear him.)
"For I desire mercy, not sacrifice"
Hosea 6:6
If you read carefully you will see that God's ways do make some sense, even to mere mortals like us.

But in the end his ways are higher than ours and his thought are too. So we can never totally understand him. I will follow him though, because I trust him.
You call it blind faith.
I call it loyalty.

It's been a pleasure meeting you all.
See ya around.
P.S.
I hope no feels I have resorted to person attacks through this time togther...if so than I am sorry...My intentions where never to offend anyone.

Anonymous said...

brigid wrote:

"anonymous, or however you are, I happen to think that I turned you on and you went to the shower and pulled that thing out of its socket. Don't lie to me, you born-again twerp.

And I am not the one who needs to scrub."

I don't know if you turned him/her on or not, but you sure did me:)

Lee (going to scrub down now)

posted: 5/12/2006 9:51 AM EST

xrayman said...

Marianas Trench,
Your annolgoy on the concept of belief is so true. Belief in the invisible man in the sky is not a choice. I went through most of my 43 years saying I believed in God, but I never really did. You can choose to "say" you believe, but one can't simply choose to "actually" believe in something in which no shread of evidence exists. That is why Pascal's Wager is a load of crap. I could say I believed to save my ass, but if God were truly real he would see though the bullshit.

Beanheal,
I liked your little post. It was short and sweet. It is right on target with this subject.

"what one wants to believe has no bearing on reality. i searched for truth and found truth. the truth is there are no gods, christian or otherwise."

Anonymous said...

Also, on free will...it is my understanding that man does have the will to sin, to follow God, ect...but that God's will is never overruled by man's will....and in the end God's will is done. But it seems to me (now I could be wrong...) that God's will is often influneced by man's choices. We sin...God reacts.
God hardens the hearts of some...but he hardens their hearts because they did not follow him...because they sinned.
Romans 1-18 and on is a good example.
His wrath is revealed...then in v.19 BECAUSE that which is known about God is evident to man and he still did not follow.
In v 21. For even though they knew God they did not honor him, v.22 professing to be wise, they became fools, they worshiped the creation in v. 23 and then in v. 24 we see the key word...THEREFORE God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts... So we see that the sin man influnced the sovienty choice of God.

And yes...God is Lord over both evil and good.
God knows all things...but we do not know what that means...since it is beyond us.
A single day is like a thousand years to God and a thousand years like a single day. (2 Peter 3:8) It is clear that God does not view these things in the same way as us.
He said, "I am coming soon." But it has been 2000 years. So soon to God is not that same as soon to man.
The very concept of eterity is beyond man's understanding as well.
Some might ask, God made us, but who made God.
I would say no one made God...God has always been.
How is this possible?
How should I know, I am just a man?
I do not claim to fully understand all of this. I have am not perfect...I am pressing on towards that goal. I do not yet understand all things, but I long to go deeper into the knowledge of God.

What I try to focus on is what I do know because it has been shown to me.
That God so loved the world he gave his only son that who ever belives in him will not perish but have everlasting life.
I just remember the Cross.

Also...on what God requires of man:
"With what shall I come to the Lord and bow myself before the God on high? Shall I come to him with burnt offerings, with yearling calves? Does the Lord take delight in thousands of rams, in ten thousand rivers of oil?
Shall I present my firstborn for my rebellious acts, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
HE has TOLD you, O man, what is good;
and what does the Lord require of you
But to do justice, to love kidness (or loyalty), and to walk humbly with your God
Micah 6:6-8

alright...thanks for all the scriptures Dave. it will get people thinking and reading!
God bless.
Maybe we will talk more some time.

Anonymous said...

Hey xrayman and Marianna

You say you can not choose to believe in God, and yet you do choose to believe He isn't real based on the fact that you can't prove his real.
But I ask you, can you prove he is not real?
In the realm of science, you can not prove that no mouse has two tails, therefor you can not say there are no mice with two tails.
Scientists make a theory, and then they try to disprove it, and if they cannot disprove it, it is considered to be true.
So if you say that no mouse has two tails, it doesn't matter how many one-tailed mice you look at, you never know if there is a two tailed mouse out there. So logicaly, no matter how hard you try to prove there is no God, there is always a chance that there is one out there. You just haven't seen Him.

Anonymous said...

Hey webmaster

Great sermon, that's alot of scripture. Great stuff.
I agree that God is above man, and that God's will overules the desires of man. But before you give up on God because you think he hasn't chosen you and has condemned you unfairly, I want you to consider these verses:

"I have seen these people," the LORD said to Moses," and they are a stiff-necked people. Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make YOU into a great nation."
But Moses sought the favor of the LORD his God. "O LORD," he said, "Why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? Why should the Egyptians say, 'It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth'? Turn from you fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people."
Then the Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.
Exodus 32:9-12,14


So, Moses interceded for the people of Israel, and God chose not to obliterate them. And in the same way I am interceding with God on your behalf, that He would draw you with His Holy Spirit, and reveal to your heart that He loves you, so that you would believe, and follow Him.

Anonymous said...

"You say you can not choose to believe in God, and yet you do choose to believe He isn't real based on the fact that you can't prove his real."

Do you believe in Santa Claus?

Or do you choose to believe he isn't real based on the fact that you can't prove he is real?

xrayman said...

Hey xrayman and Marianna

A Servant said,

"You say you can not choose to believe in God, and yet you do choose to believe He isn't real based on the fact that you can't prove his real.
But I ask you, can you prove he is not real?"

No we don't choose to believe he isn't real either, the mechanism in our brains responsible for the cognitive thinking process, which means the area responsible for the mental acquisition of knowledge through thought, processes the information on whether or not it thinks a God exists and then relays that information down to the conscious mind. We do have a choice to lie to ourselves, but I am done with that. The subject of whether or not belief is a choice has nothing to do with proving whether or not God is real.

Let me put another spin on this. I will relate belief to love. You can’t choose to love someone. Love is something that happens that is more or less out of our control. If you were dating someone and they just fell madly in love with you, yet you didn’t share the same sentiment, there is not way you could choose to love this person, just like I can’t choose to believe in Gawd. I guess I could choose to follow the silly little rules and rituals of the Babble, but I choose not to.

Jim Arvo said...

"a servant" said "You say you can not choose to believe in God, and yet you do choose to believe He isn't real based on the fact that you can't prove his real."

No, no, no. You missed the point entirely. Belief, as a cognitive state, is not (generally) a conscious decision. Therefore, it is neither a choice to believe or to disbelieve; that cognitive state is, roughly speaking, a result of considering (consciously or unconsciously) the available evidence. Now, I grant you that people can eventually talk themselves into believing things (they do all the time with regard to religious ideas), but I suspect that's a different mechanism (and a different topic).

as: "But I ask you, can you prove he is not real?"

No, I cannot. Can you prove that there are no chocolate Easter bunnies on Alpha Centauri? I'll bet you cannot.

as: "In the realm of science, you can not prove that no mouse has two tails, therefor you can not say there are no mice with two tails."

That's absolutely true. Not with 100% confidence.

as: "Scientists make a theory, and then they try to disprove it, and if they cannot disprove it, it is considered to be true."

Haaaa! Very good! So, therefore, if we cannot disprove the existence of god, then her existence is established to the same degree as any scientific theory, right? I've never heard that one before. It really made me laugh. Yes, you have it half right. Of course, the half you are missing is that it must also be FALSIFIABLE. That is, the thing you are trying to establish must demonstrably say something about the REAL WORLD. Let's take your two-tail mouse, or the famous "all ravens are black" proposition. Those can be taken as empirical statements because they can be easily falsified: find a single two-tail mouse or a non-black raven, and the hypothesis is falsified. But what can we observe about the real world that might disprove the existence of your god? For that question to even make sense, you must first define her. Good luck even clearing that hurdle.

as: "So if you say that no mouse has two tails, it doesn't matter how many one-tailed mice you look at, you never know if there is a two tailed mouse out there."

That's true. But the presence of the one-tailed mice is also important, for what you are trying to establish is a fact about the set of ALL MICE. If that set were to be empty, then the statement about all mice having one tail, while vacuously true, is totally useless, and no longer qualifies as a scientific statement. Similarly, I could claim that all particles that travel with infinite velocity are made of seven quarks. While that statement is probably true (vacuously), it's 100% useless.

as: "So logicaly, no matter how hard you try to prove there is no God, there is always a chance that there is one out there. You just haven't seen Him."

Yes, that's all absolutely true. But you never connected this back to your musings about scientific hypotheses. (Your statements are a little confused regarding hypotheses and theories, but I understand what you are saying.) Once you do that explicitly, and observe that falsifiability is generally a prerequisite of any scientific hypothesis, then the fallacy becomes very clear.

By the way, it always amuses me that religionists never seem to perform a very simple exercise before deploying these arguments. That is, you should ask yourself "Will this same reasoning lead to nonsensical results when applied in a different context?". For example, if your reasoning was indeed valid, then you could also assert that the existence of Allah, Krishna, Osiris, Mithra, etc. are all just as firmly established scientifically. In fact, it would also be a scientific fact that there are undetectable pink and purple particles the size of basketballs filling all of space. I hope you'll agree that any system of reasoning that would lend credence to such things SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY CANNOT BE DISPROVED would be quite useless.

xrayman said...

Jesus H. Christ Jim I try to make my little point and you always gotta one up me. LOL Great post. Loved your conclusion. Keep up the good work so guys like me don't have to think too hard or get our information on the outside.

Anonymous said...

Anti CC
I am not a Christian.I have been an exchristian for over 2 years now.I was a Christian for 17 years
until I found the Jesus never existed web site.Which led me to this web site and also the www.christianism.com web site.

Whats in a mans heart.
99.9% of Christians that come to this site are more than happy to agree with their god that most of man kind should be tormented forever and ever for simply not believing in a Jesus. Christians have the same mind set that Muslims do.Send them to hell they are the enemies of god torment them forever kill kill kill etc etc .

Jesus by his own confession also came not to bring peace.

Even a fool can see that the bible
authors do not agree.
Scripture can be quoted that proves Jesus as a Saviour of all men especially those who believe or a Jesus with the potential to be a Saviour.If you save yourself.
see
I have to repent I have to pray I have to go to church I have to be baptized I have to stop being homosexual I have to not be a Mormon or a JW or a roman catholic etc etc etc So you have to save your self.

People become exchristians because they finally wake up and see the bible god for what it is.Evil.
The bible gods answer to everything is Kill destroy and torment forever and ever if they do not believe.
These are not the actions of one who loves.

If you are a Christian.You believe in the god of war who sent his son to save you from himself.You believe that infinite punishment is a just reward for finite sin?.
You also believe in a god that had to repent.As a Christian you praise your god when you read how your god destroyed 30,000 innocent people for the sin of his king. Glory glory when you read kill everything including the babies and keep the virgins for yourself.
For more see www.evilbible.com

Christians are sick.The bible is full of error and contradiction.

Christians your god is book and all you have is a relationship with words.
When will you wake up.

CC
Is god love.?yes or no
Does love ever fail.?yes or no
Will we fail to save ourself.?

A servant
Why is it that your book creates division even among those who believe in it.?

Jim Arvo said...

Hay xray, I posted my reply before I saw yours. We ended up making many of the same points. One thing that you caught and I missed is that all this talk of belief is orthogonal to what is true anyway. Believing something does not make it true (as I've heard many a Christian say to non-believers, totally oblivious to the fact that it applies to them in spades).

Ever get the feeling that this place is attracting an increasing number of proselytizing Christians? (Would it be too crass to suggest that it's like swatting at flies? Yeh, probably. Forget I said that.)

Anonymous said...

Gee, sorry about that Forever and ever. I guess I jumped the gun a little too quickly. You have to admit, a name like "Forever and ever" sets off some alarm bells, and people could jump the gun. I'd take being mistaken for a fundie probably a lot more harshly than you.

Anonymous said...

Hi Anti CC
Thats cool.
I use Forever and ever to bring attention to stupid bible translation.
Aion greek.
You would think that forever would be long enough to be tormented but not if your christian is has to be forever and ever.

Jim Arvo said...

CC: "Another problem is how most people hear [sic] consider God to be a total monster.... So I must ask, which of these commandments are you so opposed to?..."

I can't say that I'm "opposed" to any of them (except for the ban on homosexuality; I think that's up to the individuals, and nobody else), but at the same time they do not afford any kind of substantial basis for morality. I say that because they purport to be absolute, and thereby ignore all the truly difficult moral issues. For example, what do you do when you must kill to save another life? Is it okay to lie if that will spare somebody physical harm? What if "turning the other cheek" results in massive harm to others? I should also point out that these injunctions did not originate with the Bible. Many cultures (e.g. the Chinese) had codified such principles, and even grappled with some of the difficult cases when they come into conflict, long before Mosaic law. So, if you were trying to build a case for your religion with your list of "do not"s, you've not succeeded.

So let me ask you a similar question. Which of the following do you think are acceptable actions:

1) Rip open a pregnant woman.
2) Dash a baby against the stones.
3) Hamstring an animal.
4) Force a person to eat their own child.
5) Slaughter a child in front of its parents.
6) Slaughter and entire community, young and old alike, and then pillage.
7) Stone a disobedient child to death.

I could go on, but I find it absolutely nauseating to list the atocities of the Bible. It's one of the most foul books I've ever read in my life. Yes, there are some bits of wisdom, and some passages with literary value. But as Thomas Paine put it, they are as pearls in dung.

We can do much better than that, CC. But to do that we must break the spell that religious cults (including Christianity) have on so many minds. I find it very disturbing that people can read the grisly violence of the Bible, and NOT be outraged by it. People complain that violent video games make kids jaded to violence (and they probably do). I wonder how much worse it is that there are millions of adults the world over, some in positions of power, who can acquiesce in the repugnant violence of the Bible. In a very real sense, we are still in the Dark Ages.

Jim Arvo said...

Going back a ways, CC at some point said "So if you think the contents of the gospel were altered by people who were not there and did not know what took place, I'm afraid modern historians would have to disagree."

That's an absurd statement that is trivially refuted. I already gave you a list of modern scholars who find that large portions of the NT were "invented" and embellished. I could list many more. The majority of the scholars who participate in the Jesus Seminar would quality. The evidence for invention and embellishment is so broad and varied that I'm stunned you could hold the position that the gospels are legitimate "history"; even a good many conservative scholars have abandoned that provincial idea.

As one small example, you are aware that the ending of Mark (the last 12 verses) was probably added much later, right? It was apparently amended by a variety of unknown authors. So that alone would count for the Bible being "altered", but it goes WAY beyond that. Dozens (perhaps hundreds) of other passages were altered by scribes, right up through the 17'th century.

Moreover, the gospels disagree on fundamental points; for instance, the resurrection stories have numerous elements that cannot be reconciled without doing serious violence to the language. The first gospel (chronologically) was Mark. "Mark"'s gospel is very primitive compared to those of Luke and Matthew, who later redacted Mark's account to be more complete and "theologically correct". John, of course, took this to an extreme. Observe that the Jesus of Mark performs the miracle of restoring sight to a blind man by spitting into his eyes. Matthew and Luke removed that crass detail, and opted for a more dignified performance. There are many many examples of events being "cleaned up", made more miraculous (e.g. the fig tree), and put into closer conformity with OT "prophecy" in later gospels. When one places the early epistles (which contain nary a word of an earthly Jesus) before the gospels (ordered chronologically, with late interpolations and forgeries removed), followed by the other epistles, an unmistakable pattern of legendary embellishment emerges. More and more of the life of Jesus is filled in and purified as the (purported) events recede into the past. Exactly as a legend would develop.

And here's one of my favorite "smoking guns". Matthew, in an apparent attempt to retroactively have Jesus fulfill a "prophecy", leaves an incriminating trail. Matthew was obviously familiar with Zechariah 9:9, which said (in English translation):

"...thy king cometh unto thee, he is triumphant, and victorious, lowly, and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt the foal of an ass."

Matthew apparently felt that this reference to a "King" simply had be a prophecy of Jesus (context not withstanding, as usual). It would follow, then, Jesus must have done this. Matthew inserts this new prophecy fulfillment into his gospel account, but renders it in a way that betrays his ignorance of idiomatic Hebrew; he is apparently unaware that clauses are often repeated for emphasis. Matthew wrote

"Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass. And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them, And brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon." (Matt 21:1-7)

Matthew makes the laughable blunder of putting Jesus astride *two* animals, just so he could fulfill a (non-messianic and misinterpreted) prophecy. He doesn't realize that the phrase "even upon a colt..." is referring to the *same* animal. It's quite clear, then, what happened. This clearly shows that Matthew got at least some of his material by mining the OT, and NOT from divine inspiration, or reliable witnesses (who would not have mistaken one animal for two).

By the way, CC, your answer about not "testing" god was very predictable. But how do you know he would be "insulted" by such a request? Was god insulted when Thomas asked for proof? Didn't Jesus purportedly comply (albeit while heaping greater praise on those who do not require proof)? Why would you not let god make that decision? Do you know the "mind of god"?

webmdave said...

That's your entire answer to all those verses Servant? Excuse me, but where are your verses showing FREE WILL?????????

Again, let's not have your private interpretation based on loosely constructed stories. I want verses that say that all people have the power and freewill to believe whenever they choose.

Better yet, I challenge you to genuinely believe in leprechauns right now. Can you do it? If not, why not?

webmdave said...

"Whoa...once again this is getting heated."

Who's getting heated? Personally, I'm entertained.

xrayman said...

Hey Jim,
What the hell is the deal with throwing in the word "Orthogonal" in your post? This guy with a two year degree has never heard it or seen it. Being in the medical field I thought it had something to do with the boney annatomy. So I went to dictionary.com and found the definition that fits....Mutually independent or well separated. It's always nice to learn a new one. Now I can go out and confuse a few people with it.

Why do these fucking Christians keep coming back? I couldn't see popping into a Christian message board for a second, not even to take a peek. I have no interest.

webmdave said...

Servant said: "I am interceding with God on your behalf, that He would draw you with His Holy Spirit, and reveal to your heart that He loves you, so that you would believe, and follow Him."

And I am praying that the great Flying Spaghetti Monster will reveal himself to you, servant. I prophesy that we will find equal success in having our mutual prayers answered.

Anonymous said...

xrayman,That was a nice descipiption of your brain and the way that the thought process works,pretty amazing isn't it.To believe that all that complicated human makeup just "happened". Use that brain of yours,God, The God of the bible made you in this complicated,thought processing,free choosing way! Please people,explain what your thinking,ever working mind has decided as how us humans came about. I would like to hear your theory.Please do not say that we evolved from monkeys. Now that is a far more far fetched idea then ours, you know, it just don't seem to work with all the different races that we have.I never hear any explanation on how that could have happened.Maybe you out there do not like the punishment of the torture chamber,as I have seen on here as the reference to hell,but I'm sorry to say that we have no choice in the matter.Just because you want to live the way that you feel like living and commit the sins that we all stuggle with,does not mean that by saying how wrong that eternal punishment is,that it's not going to happen to you. You guys on hear trying to get through to the ex christians must be commended for your efforts! Keep up the good work! Don't let them make you mad insulting what WE CHRISTIANS know is right.So far, you are impressive. I think I would have given up by now. I don't think the majority of them will have a change of heart, but maybe someone that comes across your wise and patient words will be touched and change. You will recieve your reward for your efforts.Good Luck and God bless you special guys.

Anonymous said...

xrayman wrote: "Why do these fucking Christians keep coming back? I couldn't see popping into a Christian message board for a second, not even to take a peek. I have no interest."

I know the question was not directed at me, but if I may interject my opinion, it is that (1) they are very insincere and uncomfortable in their "beliefs," knowing that they fail every test of rational thought, and and they therefore keep regurgitating them to try to shut out any other thoughts, and (2) they are arrogant, insufferable assholes who just like to see their own words.

BTW, I recommend visiting christian forums from time to time if just for the comic relief. These people are so stupid it's downright amazing!

xrayman said...

Hey Anonymous....I will make this short and sweet. If God can come from nothing, why can't the universe and all that inhabit it? This is not a site of confused people seeking God, this is a site for people who have found the truth(that there is no God) and are expanding on it. I just don't get why you all come here. If this God is so real, why doesn't he give us just a little teeny tiny sign to prove it once and for all? If he could talk to those who wrote the Bible 2000 years ago(personally it think this just proves that schizophrenia existed then), why doesn't he come down for a little “Q and A” session today? You Christians are some seriously delusional folks, but highly entertaining for sure.

webmdave said...

"I would like to hear your theory."

I don't know, therefore, Jesus, the flying, un-dead god-man, exists.

Logic, it's not for Christians anymore.

xrayman said...

Big Daddy said,

"BTW, I recommend visiting christian forums from time to time if just for the comic relief. These people are so stupid it's downright amazing."

Big Daddy,
Speaking of comic relief, one of the funniest things I have ever seen was shortly after I found the truth. The Rev. Franklin Graham(Billy's son) was on Fox New's Hannity and Colmes because he was helping clean up in New Orleans during Spring Break. He stated how much God loved all the hurricane victims and he was so happy to do his work. Of course Sean Hannity(the Christian) praised him and God. Alan Colmes the liberal didn't let him off so easy. He asked the Rev. Graham why a loving God would allow this to happpen in the first place. It was the most hilarous display of "Christian Speak" that followed. You know the old, "We can't begin to understand our all mighty Gawwwwwd, but I assure you he loves us all." Then Alan would ask him again how a loving God could allow this to happen. It was great comedy for sure. He just kept that fake shit eating Christian smile on his face as he artfully dodged the real truth. I wished they would have qued up some zany music to go along with it. In the mean time I am sure followers of Graham's ministry were enticed to send in more cash to the Christian money machine his father started.

Anonymous said...

Yo, Anonymass(and any other stray X-ians who have zero clue what evolution means),

For the bazillionth time, evolution doesn't say that "a man came from a monkey". To start with, evolution is both theory(like atomic "theory")...AND it is a fact(like gravity is a "fact") Theories in science are both testable AND falsifiable. On the other hand, spontaneous creation(Creationism) is neither fact NOR is it a theory. That's ....NEITHER.

Shooting "holes" in evolution does not, and WILL not, make true by "default" what is essentially "magic"(creationism). Magic has no referant in reality, and this is why man created a "God", as a being who CAN do "magic". But even more to the point--if you'd just surrender to the notion that one day you will cease to exist, you wouldn't be "forced" to believe such bullshit. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Before he/she went off on the typical smug fundie tangent about how we sinners are going to roast, Anonymous wrote: "Please do not say that we evolved from monkeys. Now that is a far more far fetched idea then ours, you know, it just don't seem to work with all the different races that we have.I never hear any explanation on how that could have happened."

That's about the weirdest argument I've ever seem suggested. For starters, that there are different physical characteristics among the races - but very little genetic difference - does more to uphold than disprove evolution.

And, BTW, evolution explains the diversity of life on earth; it does not and was never intended to explain how life originated in the first place. It is possible, therefore, that there was some creative force that started the process, and that force might be called "god," for want of a better term. I don't know if this is true or not, and I don't think it is knowable, so that makes me an agnostic. Because I don't and can't know if there is a god, I can't "believe" in it, so that makes me an atheist (which merely means not having a belief in god).

But, let's put logic aside and declare that there absolutely, positively IS a god, no question about it. (No, I haven't lost my mind; it's just a hypothetical.) That still provides no evidence of the god described in the bible.

In fact, the more I tried to find biblegod and jesus, the more convinced I became that christianity, like other organized religions, is a scam. They were all invented by men, many with political/social agendas, and since it appears that humans cannot know the nature of god, their ideas are no more valid than mine or any average Joe Blow's.

Also, it seems to me that if I wanted to invent a religious cult, the first thing I'd try to do is convince my followers that they MUST BELIEVE, without questioning, or else be punished eternally.

I realize that fundies may get some kind of thrill from "sharing" their religion, but, since all your arguments boil do to "I believe because I believe because I believe ... and you'd better too or you'll go to hell," I don't think you'll be able to persuade anyone here. We've been there, done that, wised up, and utterly rejected it.

Jim Arvo said...

xrayman said "What the hell is the deal with throwing in the word 'Orthogonal' in your post?"

Ha! You know, I actually hesitated after writing that word, but decided to leave it. I figured that anybody worth having a discussion with would look it up if they didn't know what it meant. (By the way, a fantastic on-line resource is One Look. I use it all the time. I am now of the opinion that simply looking up a word is not sufficient; you need to look it up in multiple dictionaries to get a real sense of usage--and that's what One Look does.)

xrayman: "Why do these fucking Christians keep coming back? I couldn't see popping into a Christian message board for a second,..."

I've actually posted on a number of Christian web sites, but I adhere to a couple of basic rules when I do so. First, I never challenge the participants who simply engage in mutual affirmation of their beliefs, or discuss abstract theological matters. I will only speak up when I see blatant bigotry/hatred expressed toward atheists, or wildly fallacious arguments that purport to be "scientific". My second rule is to always be an polite as I can possibly be. In general, I do not chastise any of the believers; I merely ask questions, clarify scientific principles, provide links, etc. (There are exceptions to this. Occasionally I encounter believers to invest significant effort into denigrating atheists, and often with such unbridled contempt and dishonesty that I feel I need to be more direct in my challenges. But that is the exception, not the rule.)

What I have found is that often (maybe half the time) my remarks are met with blatant contempt. I've been called many nasty names, simply because I identified myself as an atheist. I've never tried to perform any kind of objective study, but my subjective impression is that, on average, the typical Christian visitor here is treated better than a typical atheist visitor on a Christian web site. In my opinion, that is the nature of belief; it is antithetical to questioning, and to a diversity of views. It tends to be insular. Hence, the very presence of an "outsider" is dangerous and disturbing.

Anyway, I can understand why you wouldn't even be interested in visiting them. I've found a few in which interesting theological discussions take place, but generally I find them to be quite boring and superficial.

xrayman said...

Marianas Trench Said,

Also, it seems to me that if I wanted to invent a religious cult, the first thing I'd try to do is convince my followers that they MUST BELIEVE, without questioning, or else be punished eternally.

I realize that fundies may get some kind of thrill from "sharing" their religion, but, since all your arguments boil do to "I believe because I believe because I believe ... and you'd better too or you'll go to hell," I don't think you'll be able to persuade anyone here. We've been there, done that, wised up, and utterly rejected it.

Those two paragraphs are Great. I am saving them to my files I use to do battle with Christians. Good stuff.

Jim,
You know what's really funny is the fact that I lost one of my oldest and dearest friends to a cult like version of Christianity. Unlike the Christian barn stormers who come witnessing to this site, he won't have a thing to do with the non Christian. No small talk, no friendly debate, nothing. He will not speak to me, period. I guess that one of the last things he ever said to me was, "You can't let your intellect get in the way of the word of God." The last letter I sent to him simply stated, "Dude you are fucking mentally ill, have a great life."

Jim Arvo said...

To Anonymous (5/14/2006 11:01 AM EST):

Given the wealth of information in print and on the web, there's really no excuse for not doing a bit of reading about evolution before posting your opinions on the matter. Don't expect to be spoon-fed here. I've tried to do that with a number of Christian visitors here and frankly, it's not worth my time. Once you've taken the time and initiative to educate yourself a little, come on back and we can have a meaningful discussion. I suggest starting your next post with a list of books that you're read on evolution. Fair enough?

Anonymous said...

Hello CC. I notice you did not address the problems with the Gospels I mentioned.
Oh yeah... and if the miracles in other religions come from demons... how do you know the miracles you experience are NOT caused by demons, who want to keep you away from the TRUE god... Quetzalco√°tl? What will you tell the Feathered Snake when you face His divine judgment? "Sorry, Lord, I did not believe you existed."

--

Hello "Anonymous" (why did you not use a name?)...

You say the notion that we "came from monkeys" is far less believable than the notion that an invisible, all-powerful being made us from dirt/earth/dust/clay approximately 6000 years ago?
Well, I am sorry, but this only shows you don´t actually know anything about the subject. But, nil desperandum! I will attempt to explain to you the scientific view of the matter.

First of all, you need to understand something. All life on Earth (that we know of :) ) is based on the chemical element carbon (C). In fact all life on Earth we know of is based on DNA, the crystalline macro-molecule described by Watson and Crick.
Now... all life forms use the same four bases as information-carriers in the DNA structure... Adenosine, Guanine, Thymine and Cytosine. Every single life form - animals, plants, fungi, slime moulds, complex single-celled organisms, archaea and bacteria - you name it. All of them. Now, to me, this at least suggests that all life forms are related... because there is no good reason why independently emerging life would all use the exact same system and the exact same base pairs.

(A Christian jokingly told me that humans and bananas have 60% of their DNA in common, and then asked whether it meant we are related. Well, yes, that is exactly what it means.)

Of course you could say that God, having invented ACTG-based DNA (pun), decided to use it for ALL the millions of different life forms, without creating even one with a genetic matrix based on a different molecule. Not very imaginative, especially for a God, but hey, it´s conceivable.

Now, DNA´s base pairs are arranged in genes - base sequences that code for something in the cell (as you know, every living cell has its operations managed by the chemical program contained in the DNA). Now, as it turns out, different life forms nevertheless use the same gene sequences for the same or similar purposes. A nice and famous case in point is that the same gene that codes for segments in flies codes for rib growth in mice.

Seems to indicate they both inherited that same gene from a common ancestor.
What was the last common ancestor of vertebrates and arthropods? Probably a worm-like creature in an early Cambrian sea.

In any case... the genetic similarities seem to oddly increase with perceived relationships. For instance, as it turns out, humans and chimpanzees have more than 95% (maybe as much as 98.5%) of our DNA in common.

But it´s more than that. There are retroviral DNA remnant sequences.
You see, you got these tiny parasitical molecular machines named viruses. You can´t really call them alive - they´re more like rogue bodyparts of cells, if you will. A virus consists of some DNA (or RNA) and a protein shell. The shell only serves to hook on to a living cell and inject the virus itself. The parasitical DNA then breaks down the cell´s own genetic material and uses the A, C, T and G to copy itself a couple of thousand times, after which the assembler code of the viral DNA builds new protein shells. The cell then breaks down and the new viruses are released.

But some viruses don´t do that. Retro-viruses enter the cell like a normal virus, but then the parasitical genes interweave themselves with the host´s DNA... sneaking in, as it were, like a spy in a row of soldiers. Then, it does nothing. But every time the cell divides, a copy is made of the new DNA... until a certain moment or event triggers the virus, and the cell dies in the birth of an army of viruses.

But sometimes something goes wrong. Sometimes the virus never activates, instead becoming a permanent part of the host DNA. If you know where to look, you can use such foreign DNA sequences as markers. If your father possessed such retroviral DNA sequence remnants, you would of course have them too. And your children would too, plus any new retroviral remnants your reproductive cells might have picked up. Doesn´t happen often... and that´s exactly what makes retroviruses so important to tracing human ancestry.

You see, humans and chimpanzees have retriviral DNA sequence remnants in common. Several of them, in fact. And that by inclusion means that humans and chimps must have had the same ancestors.

Chimps and humans also each have retroviral sequences the other species does not have. This means they were sustained since humans and chimps split off. Now, the rate at which new retroviruses are sustained is more or less ( :) ) a given. It´s sometimes known as the molecular clock. Using this, it has been estimated with reasonable accuracy that humans and chimpanzees were one species, a little over five million years ago.

The fact that this notion is supported by a large car trunk full of ancestral primate fossils is just the icing on the cake. That humans are descended from ape-like primates is not seriously in question and has not been for - well, a while now.

Now, you ask, how is this possible? How does evolution work?

Well, first of all... variation is very important. All life forms are based on DNA. DNA contains such an enormous number of chemical connections, that it is inevitable that alterations are caused by reactive chemicals or radiation. If such a chemical change occurs, it is usually corrected by the self-adjusting nature of DNA. However, every now and then a change is permanent. Maybe it won´t affect the cell; but if it does, the cell usually either self-destructs or is destroyed by other cells.
But sometimes neither happens. Sometimes a cell will have a permanently altered function (and that is putting it simply. A single atom shifting can alter a base pair, which alters an entire codon, which changes the entire gene, which affects other genes, which affect other genes in turn...). A mutation.

And sometimes, the cell that is altered is a reproductive cell. A sperm cell or ovum. Then, every cell in the entire new organism will be a mutant cell. (He was in Dragonball Z).
Now, even so, the individual might not be what you would call a mutant, or a "hopeful monster". In fact, on average, every person has four mutations in his body that his or her parents did not have, and obviously we are mostly similar to them.

But sometimes, the change will be profound, even if its on a small scale. Your stomach acid may be different. You might have stronger bones, or more brittle ones. You might have more muscle tissue. You might have a fourth kind of sensory cell in your eye, allowing you to perceive color in a way us normals cannot understand (there actually are such people).
Now, in nature, if such a change would benefit your ability to have offspring, of course you would have more children. And odds are, at least half (and more if the gene was recessive to begin with) will have the mutated gene in them as well. Now, if the gene is recessive, they might not have the mutated TRAIT, but they will have the mutated GENE in them... and it will slowly spread throughout the population. If the mutation indeed benefits people who have it, eventually every individual of your species will indeed possess the new trait.

But of course, if circumstances change, the mutation might then become negative. If a mutant had thicker fur than his normal brethren, he would have an advantage when it was cold, but at a disadvantage if the climate changed.

That is why variation is so important. The more variation exists in a species, the more likely it is to be able to adapt to changing circumstances. Bear in mind it is the SPECIES that changes, not the individuals.

Now, along with variation, large numbers of offspring are also important. Almost every species in nature (mammals less so) produce far more offspring than can possibly survive. The random shuffling of genetic traits that occurs every time an animal procreates results in genetic variation in every batch of newborns, ensuring that no matter what the circumstances, at least some will survive to breed in turn. And the ones that survive will logically be the ones with the most effective collection of genes.

So, under stable circumstances, what is usually described as "evolution" (the radical changing of species into new species) would not occur. A species would remain the same as long as the circumstances did, perhaps becoming better and better adapted to that specific set of circumstances, resulting in extreme specialization. But such a species would be vulnerable to rapidly changing circumstances.

Now... on human evolution. Just WHY primates (and although it is technically speaking wrong to call them apes, it is not entirely unjustifiable) split off a branch (SPLIT OFF. "If humans came from apes, why are these still apes?" Because not all apes evolved the way we did. Some evolved differently.) which evolved bipedalism about five million years ago is not clear. Climate change is usually considered the most likely cause, with the desiccation of forests and the emergence of large plains benefiting walking upright over a semi-quadrupedal stance which combined well with tree-climbing (although Elaine Morgan offers some compelling arguments that suggest our ancestors were at some time actually semi-aquatic).

In any case, the first step from (a fairly chimpanzee-like) ancestor to modern humans was walking upright. Or at least walking exclusively on the hind limbs, freeing the hands for manipulating the environment.
The next step appears to have been the change of the diet - from herbivorous to omnivorous. Eating meat, a rich source of protein, allows a double, parallel development... the reduction of the intestine and the increase of brain size.
When we had gotten this far, the first species in the genus Homo emerged - Homo Habilis, about two million years ago.
Homo Erectus, its much larger descendant (slightly smaller than us) fanned out over Asia and Europe from Africa, apparently parenting Neanderthals (in Europe) and Homo Floresiensis (in Asia).
Finally, about 200,000 years ago, Homo Sapiens arose from Homo Erectus in Africa, and about 140,000 years later followed the footsteps of Erectus, eventually populating the world, taming livestock, cultivating crops, building cities and inventing gods.

The genetic evidence is clear in suggesting all of this. So is the fossil evidence. What do YOU have to support YOUR views?

Personally, I find it infinitely grander to realize that I am part of a gigantic tapestry of life, rolling from its beginnings, billions of years ago, in the blazing furnace of a dying star, than to believe a petty, incompetent and vicious god made my ancestor from dirt, 6000 years ago.

Jim Arvo said...

Leonard, you have far more patience than I. Kudos on a very well-written summary.

Way back there somewhere you concluded a post with "Maybe you should do what WE did and use your brain. It took four billion years to evolve. It would be a waste not to use it." Well put. I like that.

Anonymous said...

Why are you complaining about the christians coming on your website?Wouldn't it be a boring and very empty site if they didn't. Imagine you members just asking each other about the weather.The debates is why your here. if nothing but friendly hello's were posted, who would waste their time reading any of it? Quit complaining! You know that you enjoy this!

xrayman said...

Yes I guess we are in the ultimate catch 22, and much as the Christians bug the shit out of us, we do need them here. Just like the cops need the criminals or they would be out of a job.

Jim Arvo said...

Anonymous,

Don't expect a one-size-fits-all answer to your question. People come here for different reasons. Personally, I am often amused by the visiting Christians who post here, but when they resort to wearisome repetition of unsupported dogma, and keep posing and posting and posting, I too start asking myself what they are doing here. There's only so much "God this" and "God that" I can take when there is nothing at all offered to support the existence of such a being in the first place, and nothing close to a definition of such a being either. So, in summary, I actually do enjoy seeing different points of view here, and interacting with such posters, so long as they are willing to engage in meaningful dialog; I do not appreciate being preached at or talked down to, and I don't think anybody else here does either. Does that help?

Anonymous said...

CC,
Every arguement every Christian has thrown at me in an attempt to reconvert me doesn't make sense because it is just fiction. It's nothing to do with hating Christians or 'spirital blockage' or anything. You know, like the tales of fairies and ghosts and unicorns, Zeus and Mount Olympus, and the epic of Gilgamesh are all made up. Demon are not expelled because demons do not exist. The bible was written by men who saw the world in all it's painful glory and in an attempt to make sense out of it,attributed it to a god or gods and also to make the poor ordinary types behave and stay in line. It just so happens that the collection of kiddology called the bible still has a hold on the modern mind, it's filtered through for some reason. There is no god, no afterlife, what you get is what you see. By the way, history books find no evidence of the Exodus, the drowning of the soldiers et all, neither do they find objective, undoctored evidence that Jesus the Christ ever existed. It's just like someone appearing and saying they believe that Olympus is a real place and Zeus is now living inside them and when their time comes they will go off to the holy mountain to live forever in bliss! I'm sorry, but I won't be convinced otherwise and it hurts to think of you believers so deluded. Unless you're believing because the threat of hell keeps you in line.

Anonymous said...

To any and all anoymouses who may be inclined to say "We didn't come from no damn monkeys, or there is no proof that evolution is true," I would suggest that you read Leonard's post above, on the process of evolution, and one of the most clear, concise and scholarly attempts I have ever seen to explain it.

I would suggest you make copies of it and pass them out to all of your evangelical friends. I am sure that Leonard is a scientist or has considerable empirical education. He says: "Finally, about 200,000 years ago, Homo Sapiens arose from Homo Erectus in Africa, and about 140,000 years later followed the footsteps of Erectus, eventually populating the world, taming livestock, cultivating crops, building cities and inventing gods", which leads me into my own not so scholarly, nor scientifically accurate version of how we came to be, and started making up Gods in an attempt to explain it.

Isn't it strange that we climb down out of the trees, and in the last 100,000 years or so, learn to walk upright, learn agriculture, and domestication of other animals for food, learn to speak and write, and one of the first things we do is create God. Isn't it even weirder that this God is just a bigger stronger version of ourselves. People of every religion, and there are thousands, believe those of a different religion are doomed to go to some version of hell when they die, and only they will be in a paradise forever

Isn't even stranger that man refers to God as a male, and he gets angry, makes mistakes, is jealous, demands our love and devotion, and is vengeful? We are talking about the "cause of everything," and we think of it as powerful human male.

Of course the cause of everything "God" had to have a nemesis, so the designers of the Christian religion have God creating a character who in many cases is superior in strength to Himself, and lets him run amuck over the earth doing harm to people, and God seems to be incapable or unwilling to "Stifle" this character.

But the most crazy thing about the way man designed God is the way they say he loves all of his creations, when all we have to do is look around us and observe the way life actually is. The strong are favored over the weak, the more intelligent over the stupid, the attractive over the ugly. Millions of people are starving. Millions more are diseased and malformed. Tyrannical rulers are committing genocide on their neighbors. We have assembly lines that slaughter billions of other animals in order to feed the 6 billion humans on earth. The "population bomb" is on a collision course with disaster. Billions of us will die without the slightest consolation from the force that created us. This very obvious reality for the most part is totally ignored by believers in the Christian religion, and also believers in most other religions.

Skeletons of literally billions of life forms, that have come and gone, litter the earth, and attest to the fact that every species that has ever lived, has just been an experiment or stepping stone, if you will, for the next one that was capable of reproducing faster or surviving better. In other words, the creatures who were the best at killing and having sex became our ancestors. Where is the love in that? "Natural Selection" is very efficient to the extent that it does insure that life will forge ahead in some form or other, but an ABSENCE of love is the operating principle. "Eat or be eaten," find some way to reproduce faster and better and become smarter or you will become extinct, like the millions of species that preceded us have.

Just look at the characteristics of the opposite sex that generate what we call LOVE for them. Men are attracted most to females for their baby making physical characteristics first (Big breasts and hips, and shapely gluteus Maximus's) and then by their brains. Women are attracted to men with power, who are good providers, and nest builders. Very few people are attracted to the stupid ugly, and defective. These people quite often go through life without mates. If love for all people were an innate quality in us, like the religious like to pretend, we would all be striving to help the sick and starving people that are suffering everywhere.

After the bible was being pieced together by the Roman Empire, from fragments oral and written history, and proclaimed to be the only legal belief a citizen could espouse, anyone who openly opposed this State Religion was immediately identified and silenced, bringing on a very long period of rule by the officials of the church. The Dark Ages or rule by the church finally ended, only after millions of unbelievers apostates, heretics, witches, people possessed by demons, and otherwise innocent people were tortured and murdered in the name of God.

It is my personal belief that with the advent of mass communication whereas the common man has access to instant rebuttal by brilliant people to all of the mythology being peddled, ancient scenarios of murderous vengeful Gods, casting anyone who doesn't pay homage to them into a lake of fire, along with all the other illogical stuff that has persisted in human storytelling, will become obsolete, sooner than later.

I will finish with another quote from Leonard:

"Personally, I find it infinitely grander to realize that I am part of a gigantic tapestry of life, rolling from its beginnings, billions of years ago, in the blazing furnace of a dying star, than to believe a petty, incompetent and vicious God made my ancestor from dirt, 6000 years ago"
Dan (Who is amazed by the journey of man, from one cell to being what he is today, and that it only took 4 billion years)

blaine said...

Blaine: I thought this letter I wrote to a wonderful friend of mine, who is not a Christian, might help explain my "belief system" to all here. I have saved and learned much from your letters. If I had just one suggestion [I had to learn this when working with my youth gangs and other groups that sometimes had a very deep anger and were not afraid to show it] is that sometimes the language here gets too "salty", from both sides, which can overshadow the message you are trying to convey.
Lois: That was a beautiful letter that you wrote, Blaine. How very telling that CC did not respond to ONE issue that you brought up.

Blaine: Thanks Lois-you are one of my bright lights. I don't understand why fundamental Christians do not realize the depth of their hurt upon others and will even blame gays for the high gay youth suicide rate.
But to be fair I am somewhat of an oxymoron to non-believers and fundamental believers.
Non-believers ask, and rightfully so, "How can you be gay and claim to be a Christian", while fundamental believers say, "How can you say you're a Christian when you say you're gay and reject a large part of the Bible".
The only answer I can give is one that I cannot prove and is very subjective, but as I have said the majesty and mind of mankind [that is unless he is using politics or religion to satisfy his "petty dictator" desires], the complexity and design of all creation, the beauty of nature and the universe that Loren is privileged to often see close up and the experience in my heart in 1971 is what I hang my hat on.
I can truly say I love my God and people more than I ever have-in large part thanks to this site because it brought up close the contradictions of a God who is supposed to love unconditionally, have the qualities of mercy, compassion, forgiveness and grace [unmerited favor] as compared to Bible God who lacks the very virtues that His followers talk about; and I no longer have to "judge" who is worthy of God's love.
So I have a peace in my heart that I have never had before. I feel I am free from the chains of religious bigotry, judgment and hate.
I know "my peace" is a contradiction to some but it works for me and those I am privileged to help. And for that I am very grateful.
Love,
blaine

brigid said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

I believe that someone earlier said that the fact that the tomb was opened proved that Jesus was a hoax and he questioned why the tomb would have to be opened if it was his soul that was resurrected. Actually, resurrection of the body is one of the main tenants of atleast the catholic (original) faith. Many christians do not even know this, but it is not your soul that goes to heaven it is your body on the last day of judgment. It's true. Ask any priest. I believe this bit of doctrine comes from St. Augustine.

Anonymous said...

Oh shit! There's drinking and orgies in Muslim heaven?! Well, I better pretend I worship Allah, you know, just in case . . .

Hellbound Alleee said...

Reasons why it's good to be an atheist:
Knowing that life isn't a gamble
No fear of hell, Satan, demons, or other magical things
Your thoughts are your own: only the government is listening (we'll take care of that later, lol)
Being able to read anything you want, without fear that your peers will disapprove
Sneaking an extra pork chop during prayers

Now, if you want to ask that question again, ask a Hindu or a Jew why they don't believe in Jesus, "just in case." You're the one whose scared. You're the one who believes there's a chance you could suffer for eternity, not me.

You have a choice. A choice to not be afraid. You are not required to believe.

A question from me: why did God make the rule that non-believers must go to hell? Please justify. Thanks!

Anonymous said...

Hello...so, did i get this right? Believe "just in case"...???
What if you are the best person ever....nothing but good deeds and a wholesome life....you just didn't believe in God. Should you then fry in hell for eternity?
And what if you are a religious person in church every week and preaching a holier than thou attitude but in the meantime are a corrupt slimeball (ala Jimmy Swaggart?)....should this person be allowed to go into heaven just because he 'believed'?
It's just plain rediculous.
I am not gonna 'believe' just to have insurance i am going to go get into heaven. You are asking me to be a hyprocrit.

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