My heart hurts for people like you

Hi There. I am so very worried about you . There is not much I can say to you that I am sure you have not heard. If you have heard Billy Graham you have heard one of the most amazing people in this world. I just hope your aware of how many people your influencing through this web site. To send yourself to hell is one thing but to be held accountable for so many other souls you should be terrified. Maybe your laughing but you won' t be when Jesus says I never knew you away from me.

My heart hurts for people like you I will pray for you even though you don' t want it and you better pray that you do come back with your tail between your legs because you don't want to experience hell.. You had it right the first time please carefully weigh out your consequences for being agnostic verses christian. Yours in christ.....

Tabitha Sopko


Anonymous said...

I can't even begin to respond to this, but I'll try.

Sweetie, why don't you go volunteer at a homeless shelter or youth center if you feel a need to help someone. All of us here are quite content with our non-belief, and we've never been happier.

Offer your services where they would really do some good. We'll be o.k., really.

Oh, I do have a question. If you are so concerned that us ex-christians are gonna burn, could you explain how that will happen, as our bodies will rot away after we die. The bible doesn't seem to offer much info about this. It would be nice if you could clear this up for me. :)

Anonymous said...

I am not an agnostic; I am an atheist. And like other atheists I have no use for your ridiculous religious beliefs. There is no hell, no heaven, no Satan, no angels. There is no god, and the Jesus chap most likely never existed. There never was a resurection, there are no such thing as miracles, and when we die, it is THE END. What part about those simple statements do you not understand?
We have heard your pathetic condescension hundreds of times. It makes you feel somehow superior to "pray for us." You want to suffer under that delusion, fine. Just don't expect any of us to seriously consider your fantasies.
Have a nice day.

Anonymous said...

I love it when Christians want to pray for me. I figure I can use all the prayers I can get. I don't believe in their idea of a God, I'm more inclined toward pantheism (i.e. it's all God, the good and that which we don't perceive as good. I don't perceive Billy Graham as good, but I'm glad you do. I hope you'll stick around and read some of the other comments. I especially liked one guy's thoughts about being a Christian Zombie (or something like that).


Anonymous said...


Would you marry someboday who stuck a gun to your head and said,
"I love you, would you marry me? If you don't, I am going to blow your head off."

That's what your invitation to follow Christ sounds to me honey. An invitation to love him under a death threat.

I don't know if there is a God. But if there is one, I am pretty sure She ain't like that.

Take care,


Anonymous said...

I'm not so much worried as that I feel sorry for you. Your mind is trapped in the snare of Christian rhetoric which is very difficult to break free of. I know from personal experience as it took me 45 years to realize that it is all built on an imaginary foundation, just like every other religion and myth which you would acknowledge as being false.
My hope is that someday your (mind's) eyes will be opened to reality and you will see that Christianity is only one more doctrine based on stories from hearsay without any evidence to support it's claims.
In the mean time, I understan how you feel because I would have felt the same way when I was still "blinded by the light". But please rest assured that we ex's are very much at peace with our lack of belief just as you are with yours in other religions.

Anonymous said...

Billy Graham??? Isn't he that guy who believes every natural disaster is God punishing people for something? If a guy who is woefully ignorant of the laws of nature is your idea of an amazing person, I suggest you get out more. There are so many truly amazing people in the world. BG sure isn't one of them.

Anonymous said...

Dear Ms Sopko.
Just a few questions, take 'em or leave 'em.
How do you know the bible is true? Because the bible says it's true? What other evidence do you have?
How do you know that the whole Christian mindset, people going to hell, and sending others there, praying for Jesus to accept us back has any basis in reality at all? If god is real, what kind of god would he be to send us to eternal punishment for not bowing down to him when he gives us no objective evidence for his existence? If god loves us and wants to go to heaven why doesn't he write a new book or just appear personally? Maybe at the United Nations Conference? Oh but that would be the Anti Christ, wouldn't it? According to Christian belief? I struggled with trying to believe for many years and, on hearing no objective evidence as to god's existence, let it all go. Don't waste time praying, get out and do something, eh? You'll feel better than filling your mind and others with biblical fantasies.

Steven Bently said...

What would cause someone to come on a ex-christian site and spout that they will pray for us.


Are you speaking on the behalf of a dead man that has been dead for over 2000 years, are you basing your erroneous presumption on what a bunch on mentally insane men wrote down on clay tablets over 2000 years ago?

How do you know they wre not insane? Can you prove that the people that wrote the Bible were not insane?

Can you prove that the people that wrote the Bible were not on Opium or Cannabis or drunk on wine?

How can anyone, in their right mind, defend what was written down in a book over 2000 years ago?

Not knowing who for 100% sure who wrote it? Neither God nor Jesus never wrote any part of the Bible.

How do you know that the Bible was inspired by god, instead of a mystical drug?

What evidence can you supply that will prove beyond a shadow doubt, in anyone's mind, that the Bible is the true written word of a God?

Which God? The God of Wine? The God of Opium? The God of Heroin? The God of Hashhish? Which frikkin God?

The Bible writers thought that the Heart talked to them, they had no medical knowledge and very little knowledge of anything and mostly based their knowledge on fear and superstitions.

It's the BRAIN!!! that thoughts come from, not the heart.

They thought it was from a God, all the while, it was their brain that told them what to write, not their heart, there cannot be a God as stupid and ignorant as the one portrayed in the Bible.

The Bible was written by the thoughts of a man only, not from any God.

Tabitha you self-righteous brainwashed zommbie, get a life!

Anonymous said...

Hi little girl! How are you to-day? Fine? That's nice.

Looky, we know you really mean well by telling us that we're going to burn in hell, and all.... but listen hun, before you come in here and regurgitate what your Mommy taught you, you might want to at least first grow some pubic hair, 'k sweety?... or, if THAT'S a few years off still, maybe you could actually investigate how we, as EX-christians, arrived at our new-found UNfaith by actually reading some of the you think Mommy would allow that? Do you?Okay Dear, have fun......and stay where Mommy can see you!

...::in a Beavis tone::... DIE!!!!!DIE!!!!DIE!!!!


Anonymous said...


I hear you on that life was alot simpler when I knew that I knew the truth. I get kind of nostaligic for those days from time to time/

Anonymous said...

Billy Graham amazing? Yes Tabitha he is amazing. He has created a wealthy empire and a life of luxury and riches for himself and his family. It's too bad so many Christians like yourself have never read the bible. Jesus himself said (according to the bible)
It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Did you get that? In other words flat out impossible. Did you know that statement is in the bible at three places? So you see Tabitha, amazing Billy won't be going to heaven. Also why would a man who claims to believe and live the bible make such a horrible mistake? Devote his whole life to God but ignore his words and warning three times? Here's a clue, It's called a scam.

Anonymous said...

This is a support site for people who have already left Christianity. I don't think we're leading people away.

And if you think we're going to burn in hell, fine, the Muslims think Christians are going to burn in hell. Who is right, huh? Answer that!

And, oh, have we heard Billy Graham? Yes we have, sweetie, as well as Pat Robertson, Jimmy Swaggart, Jerry Falwell, Robert Tilton, Kenneth Copeland, James Dobson, ad nauseum...oh, sorry, you probably don't know what that phrase means...

You're probably a "hit and run" and will never come back.

Anonymous said...

Hmmmm...lessee...I've already probably put more thought into my response than you did to your post.

Obviously hasn't read the site. Cute fear motivated rhetoric. Signs of fundie hit and run troll here. Maybe your heart hurts because everyone who meets you wants to put a stake through it. Just a thought.

Oh, and not agnostic, you see I got a better offer...too bad it doesn't extend to a piece of human trash like you.

And before anyone bitches about not debating or treating the subject with respect, I'd like to point out two things: 1) she only made assertions, ergo nothing to argue and 2) from this writing, it can be seen that she doesn't deserve any respect.

Anonymous said...

Sweetheart, please go out and get some. With all that malace, surely you haven't been getting any sex in a while. Because if you had, no way little old Ex-C would be on your radar....because you'd be too busy, well getting busy.

Plus it does wonders for releasing endorphins that make you feel good, overall, about life instead of spending your existance dwelling on old bronze-age deities smiting people and what not.

So please calm down, have a glass of wine, a fine-looking man with a, bank account and call me in the morning. ;)

Steven Bently said...

My Heart hurts for you people! That's a total lie!

If your Heart hurts you would be running off to see a doctor immediately.

Using the Heart scam as an emotion, is the perpetual lie of religion!

You see, the people that lived 2000 years ago thought that their Heart talked to them, they never knew that the Brain existed, they relied on the reaction of the Heart, to tell them what they were thinking and wanted to hear.

This is the solid proof that all religions are a LIE!

The Heart reacts to what a person's brain sees and hears, it's called, Fight or Flight Syndrome.

Surely a God would have known about the Brain! But they were just writing about their inherent fear of death and dying, and calling it inspired, from a God.

Funny how the Bible writers 2000 years ago knew nothing about the planet and things that they could see, but knew all there was about things they could not see, like ghosts and spirits and Angels and demons!

This is the same lie that Billy Graham and so many others are getting filthy rich on, using the word Heart to discribe an emotion, which is the same lie that the Bible writers used.

Your Heart is a pump, it does not talk to you, it pumps blood only, it does not think!

Your Heart Does Not!

cry! ache! talk! get mad or sad! have eyes! or ears! have a rudder! or a door! break! goes out! love or hate! have strings! get heavy! cheat! get bitter! get right or left! get cold! have a burden! you cannot surrender your Heart! accept God or Jesus! you cannot invite anyone into your Heart!

These are the Perpetual Lies that the Bible writers used to manipulate people 2000 years ago, and the false preachers are still using them today to lie and minipulate people into submission.

And you've bought into the Lie, and you're no different than the liars that spread them.

Religions are a perpetual Lie, it must tell lies to coax and manipulate it's sheep.

When you use the word Heart, to discribe an emotion, you're telling a bold face Lie.

Tabitha, you and all Christians are a Perpetual Liars!

Anonymous said...

"To send yourself to hell is one thing"

We don't. Your Hell(TM) is a myth.

"Maybe your laughing but you won' t be when Jesus says I never knew you away from me."

Ah, threats. I take it you have nothing else to "support" your claims with.

"My heart hurts for people like you"

Liar. You don't feel any compassion for "us unbelievers". You are just babbling what your cult f├╝hrer has told you to babble.
If you really want to send a message to us which we at least check out, here's what to do:
Go to the forums of this site. Register (don't be a coward like all your fundie friends). Read some of our extimonies. Read some more about what we do or do not know/believe/whatever. Then, if you still think you've got anything to say, say it there.

"I will pray for you"

Fine, pray to empty air. I don't care.

"...even though you don' t want it and you better pray that you do come back with your tail between your legs because you don't want to experience hell."

Ah, threats again.
Convince us that your Hell(TM) exists. While we are at it and because that amounts to very much the same, prove that the wholly babble is trustworthy in any of its claims to the supernatural.

"You had it right the first time please carefully weigh out your consequences for being agnostic verses christian."

You know, continuing to deny Odin Allfather will mean you end up in Hel (the original, before you fundie numbnuts copied it like you copied pretty much everything from your rivals). Don't take that risk - come to us, become an Asatruar and get your chance to enter Valhalla after death!
Sounds arrogant, eh? Now guess how your babble sounds to us.

Anonymous said...

Billy Graham spent his whole life evangelizing for Jesus, and as a reward for this Jesus took his mind and memory away so that Billy could live out his old age as a vegetable. If this is how Jesus rewards the faithful on earth, why do you think he will give them any better reward in the afterlife?

Anonymous said...

Whatever. "I never knew you" in the bible actually I believe is talking about the hypocrites in christianity, otherwise christians themselves!

Just to prove my point, although I think you'll just ignore me Tabitha.

Matthew 7

21 "Not all people who sound religious are really godly. They may refer to me as `Lord,' but they still won't enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The decisive issue is whether they obey my Father in heaven.

22 On judgment day many will tell me, `Lord, Lord, we prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.'

23 But I will reply, `I never knew you. Go away; the things you did were unauthorized.

Anonymous said...

Actually please spare us all from your lies. Your head doesn't ache for us because you do not know each one of us. Also how could your heart hurt when we are just strangers to you, face it lady, you can't care for strangers. Not this fast anyway.

So, let me get this want to be right, so we can "come back with your tail between your legs because you don't want to experience hell.."

Well how very caring of you! What a hypocrite, first you say that your head and heart aches and now you say that you want to be right so we can be damned, from your own twisted point of view. You are sick lady.

Its your kind of twisted thinking that's keeping many intelligent people running from religion and run they should!

Well we're not dogs, cats or lizards...we don't have tails....most of us shouldn't anyway!

Anonymous said...

One more thing...

Preaching and begging does pay off! We've learned that from Billy Graham, Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen. I've watched their programs lady, most of them are about prosperity and positive "practical" christian living.

They are no different than the rest! Do you honestly think they would be preaching for many years if they got nothing out of it?! Oh no!!! Each person has to survive and make a living, money is king in this world. Without money as a motivator, no one would be preaching. That's a fact.

Hmm must be nice having all that money from preaching!

Anonymous said...

Tabby, you say you're worried that we might be leading others down the road to ruin. But, how do you know that you're not on your way to hell yourself? Personally, I'd rather get there on my own terms. I mean, just imaging trying to explain to satan "Hey, I was just doing what Billy said I should do!"

Of course if you are "really" sure that you're on god's guest list, and you're "really" sad about us not making the "right" choice have you ever considered volunteering to take our place in hell? I mean, wouldn't that be a more noble sacrifice? Wouldn't that be what Jesus would do? (Come to think of it, Jesus had that choice and he opted to go to heaven and leave us all to burn, didn't he?)

Oh well, one last thought. If it really starts to bother you that all us x-tians are thinking "bad" thoughts, remember; its your god that made up the rules, so blame him - not us.

Anonymous said...

All Christians are in denial. There is nothing supernatural, your god is an illusion, just like any other gods. I wasted 30 years of my life following this myth, it destroyed my life, it is an evil religion based on ancient superstitions, lies, contradictions, fairytales and wishful thinking. There is no such thing as a personal relationship with Jesus, because he is not real. There is no holy spirit, and as I am an ex-christian, I speak from experience, for I tried everything to have a relationship with this God, but it was always a one way relationship, alive only in my mind. What is criminal is for preachers and churches to tell people that this fantasy is real, when we all know that there is no proof, no verifiable interactions or miracles of any kind from any such entity that supposedly loves us. It is nothing less than mass psychosis and it undermines one's ability to survive in the real world, because no imaginary friend is really there for us. Relying on Christ, the Holy Ghost or Yahweh or any other god is foolhardy because doing so disarms you, makes you weak and unable to deal with reality by focusing on Reality. The truth is that a loving God would have compassion and would be a part of our life, just like other creatures can be our friends and love us. True Love does not come with strings attached, it is merciful and puts Love first, it changes things and creatures for the better, it does not destroy or hurt, it wants to be with you because it misses your Love, it is not distant like this christian god, it does not use intermediaries, it is open and pure and simple. The Jesus of the bible is none of these things, I called for 30 years and there was no answer. I am not going to pretend anymore. It is very sad to realize that there is no afterlife, but this hurts only because those lying preachers created this desire in us in the first place. Nobody wants to die or lose loved pets or friends forever, but just like the Santa Claus myth, it hurts much less if you outgrow it in your early years. By the way, anybody who says that Jesus blessed them so and so just say that, but it means nothing, for it cannot be proven. Jesus or Yahweh don't fare any better when compared to other gods, either. One could use the same type of apologetics, faith "arguments" or testimonials or hearsay, or unprovable rationales, to come up with any excuses for any divinity to exist. There is no more proof of cognitive interaction between the Christian God and man than there is for Allah and the rest of them, all indifferent and cold and empty and yes, dead. I say all of this with great sadness, for I wasted my life following a shadow and a lie. And yes, I asked Jesus to come into my heart and repented and confessed that I am a sinner and I tried all other ways of praying or approaching God or Christ, but my despair at the ever present silence from the Trinity never softened the nonexistent heart of this nonexistent Being. Finally, after 30 years, I have no choice but to realize that they are not real. As I say these things, I mean no disrespect, for I always had faith when I prayed, but I am not going to have faith unto death itself. If this God is not interested in a relationship in my lifetime, it's almost impossible there would be anything at all thereafter. For all we know, we turn into putrid slime and rot and the brain structures that held the information that made us who we where are gone forever. There is no proof that there is a soul, beyond of what the brain allowed us to be. A God who was not interested in being a real part of our lives when we where here on Earth is very unlikely to care thereafter, even if he indeed existed. The greatest crime of this God, as with any others, is his great Inhumanity to man and beast alike. I have come to realize that this can only be because unlike what the Bible says, it is us who created Him in our own anthropomorphic image, a deluded vision of the Universe as explained by a more savage humanity, bathing in blood, Jesus's or everybody else's, and it might as well be so, because the fascination with violence fills the Bible as it filled ancient history and on to our era, it remains as evil Scriptures, even to this day. The irony is that the god who killed my soul is not even there to shed a tear. Christianity, with all its purported acts of goodwill, has perpetrated a much greater number of injustices and moral crimes, and as such I see it as the greatest and most pernicious Lie ever to befall mankind. The sooner we free ourselves from this yoke of fancies, the more chance future humans will have to maybe, at some point in a distant future, bring a modicum of sanity and balance to this wretched world, and hopefully even prolong and better Life on Earth. And then, assuming we will have shed all our ancient vices, religion and all feuds there might arise, a stronger and more civilized of eras, might come upon to bring the true security we seek, and Love, and health, and purity of heart. If Love is ever to control our lives, we must continue to evolve in human spirit and learn to let kindness and Love reflect in actions. Morality is not of God, but it's a human construct, and it will die with us, unless we change. Religion brought the worst in us. It makes good people do bad things, it blinds you to the truth, and makes one cling to factions. It is the great Abomination. And yes, Jesus is no different, he answers prayer not, just like his father, because it is a myth. The story of my life: He stole my life, and he's not real, I cry in blood, my own real, spiritual blood of years of tears.

Oh, but thank you Jesus for a life of absence on Your part and of Your Father - so alike...- oh, Lord of broken promises, you master of excuses, there's nothing holy in your spirit, no prayer answered and no mercy, I kill you in my heart for good, you don't exist except in our minds and I am weary, I am weak, you made me so, just like your "miracle" statistics. I flip a coin and get better results than you can muster. Compassion demands more presence on your part, but no, you are a myth, a parable it seems... A parable speaking in parables, a forgery and fraud.

There probably is no God and so I suffer, as do so many others, I'm sure of it... But as for me, I will pretend no more.

Anonymous said...

I too am having doubts, but I don't know if I should just give in or keep struggling for answers.

And if I give in before I answer the doubts one way or the other, will I actually be making another mistake.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Anonymous said...

So hurt one says there is no supernatural, and concludes by saying there "probably" is no God.

Well, which is it...there is none or ther "probably" is none?

My answer would be that "probably" you can not explain all existence, life, mind and reason itself as a function of the operation of mindless forces.

But, like all atheists, you have faith that you can.

Anonymous said...

What I meant is that just because there is no valid proof of anything supernatural in our immediate universe does not logically allow me to infer that the same applies to the rest of the universe or to whatever there is outside of it, if indeed it is finite as far as space-time is concerned. Unlike others, I have enough common sense to not be arrogant and presume that i know everything. Spoken in true scientific spirit, poor me, the new atheist... Believe me, part of me still longs for God to exist and for Jesus to be real... Who wants to perish, forever? My "heart" wishes God were true, my mind tells me it's very likely untrue. And again, which god are we talking about? There are about as many Jesuses as there are believers. It's all in our minds. God, as far as we can tell, cannot live outside of our minds. Nevertheless, even in my non-belief, I still proclaim love and compassion above all things.

Anonymous said...

Hi ho, hi ho,

It's off to hell we go,,,

Dum dum de dum dum dum de dum

Hi ho, hi ho...

Well, we've been damned again. Imagine that.

Tabitha, you said that Jesus would say "I never knew you" to us. Are you referring to Matt. 7:23? It sounds to me as though Christ is referring to christians in said passage! Notice Matt 7:21 and 7:22: "Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (Matt. 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?" Matt. 7:23, then, reads, "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Let's examine this.

A.)We don't "saith unto" him "Lord, Lord." Christians do.

B.)We don't "prophesy in Jesus' name," or "cast out devils" in his name. Christians do.

C.)We don't "do wonderful works" in his name. Christians do.

D.)He goes on to say "ye that work iniquity." Iniquity is "sin." Christians are admitted "sinners." We aren't.

In Matt. 7:21 Christ states that "he that doeth the will of (God)" will enter heaven, not those who say, "Lord." If your beliefs are correct, then Christ is saying that a person must be doing the will of God prior to entering heaven, presumably at their "judgement," and that many christians will not be doing so. They will not enter heaven. This defies the doctrine of salvation by grace alone, which the christian church is built on.

Speaking of the gospels, what do you suppose Christ meant when he said, "For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned (Matt. 12:37)?" How do you correlate this with the doctrine of "salvation by grace alone?" How would somebody's words "condemn" them, if said doctrine were true?

The problem with the bible is this: It's a mess which will confuse anybody who reads it. While confused, the reader may think they are pleasing God by reading that book and may even have a "religious experience," imaginary or otherwise. They will then overlook anything in the book that does not fit into their world of guaranteed salvation or confuses them. We don't overlook things. We're honest about the bible. The christian church, as a whole, is not, I'm sorry to say, from what I've seen. There are many passages in the bible which any church will ignore. The above is just one small example. Read the book for yourself and be honest about it.

By the way, did you know that Billy Graham foretold of the end times back in the 1950's and he was wrong? Sorry to burst your bubble.

Love the way you added "Yours in Christ" after threatening us with hell...

Anonymous said...

To Ray: my own experience and research and failed prayers brought me to what I believe about life now. I am also venting my pain and anger and hurt because I feel betrayed by this God and His Son(?) as belief in them affected MY life a certain way. I have heard of people who swear that God talks to them every day, and they seem sane. However, I think they are delusional by virtue of cultural automatisms and mass psychosis, but that is only my opinion, NOW. That does not mean most of them are not good people, well-meaning and so on. I hope you will have more luck than I, but like Shakespeare said, " thine own self be true" You must follow your own path and see what works for you. Nevertheless, if you feel that you've been banging your head against a wall and want to stop the pain, then start thinking for yourself. Just remember, Love is kind, anything else is not love, nor is it kind.

Anonymous said...

To screwedbyatheists:
and one more thing: I may not be able to prove that God does not exist, because there is so much that escapes our observation, but anybody can prove the immorality of this god,if it exists, just read the "good" book and then also become aware of all suffering ever experienced by all creatures since the beggining of life on this planet. Become aware of the food chain. only an evil, diabolical entity, if it existed would think of that. I know there is no God. That does not stop me from still wishing there was one. Kind of like knowing the winning probability in lottery but still spending another dollar hoping you could win. By the way, statistically, there is a greater chance of winning lotto, than talking to God, like christians claim, PROBABLY lying or just being delusional.

Anonymous said...

Ya'll would not be sodefensive if you did not thimk Tabitha to be right!

Anonymous said...

Hey, look at John, true to their nature: Threats, violence and mythology and assumptions and hearsay and testimonials and generalities and hocus-pocus and again, NOT THE LOVE SPOKEN BY THE SELF CONTRADICTING CHRIST. Wow, just because people in jails may have weird looks that means Satan is real. Wow, such logic, how does that follow? So typical...

Anonymous said...

Who is we? I just stumbled onto this website tonight for the first time. Used to categorizing people, huh? Just like your criminal book. Nothing surprises me anymore with such comments... We are different people with stories of our own and we should not be herded into one group like that. Why do I have to be called an atheist because I don't believe in yet another incarnation of recycled myths? Is there also a category for someone who does not believe in the easter bunny? I think not.

Anonymous said...

I don't know about "WE'all", but I'll speak for myself:
I certainly am not defensive, but maybe I JUST HATE THE SON OF A BITHCH MYTH. Get this: Did you read my initial post? I guess not thoroughly, it seems...I said I tried to talk to God and Jesus and asked for the Holy GHost and so on and there was nothing. Ever. total silence. Always. Except for my own "little voice in my heart". But nothing from anything remotely supernatural. It was always a one way conversation. Read my first post carefully. it is the truth of my own experience.

Anonymous said...

Love to all, I am going to sleep now. Until the day we turn into putrid slime(let's see the Merciful Three resurect that...), we should all be civil to one another, not speak of dying for faith. Like I said before, religion is evil and an abomination, it separates people from one another, it creates anguish and havoc, it is anachronistic.

Anonymous said...

Ok john, I'm gonna make one last comment and then go to sleep, I don't want this turning into a flame war or anything like that. I'm really tired, anyhow. What solid evidence do you have for the actual existence of these characters and their traits-Lucifer, etc. I mean outside of the well known mythological fairy tales? Anything in actual reality? When you can substantiate some, I'm sure all the "fellow" "atheists" on this site will believe you, after all, evidence cannot be ignored. Until then, Have a good night.

P.S. Again, it is logically incorect to assume that because there is horrible suffering in prisons or anywhere else there occurs evil, that is due to the existence of a mythological figure. All claims you make are ...make-believe.

Anonymous said...

Hurt by the absentee landlord... wrote:
"To screwedbyatheists:
and one more thing: I may not be able to prove that God does not exist, because there is so much that escapes our observation, but anybody can prove the immorality of this God, if it exists, just read the "good" book and then also become aware of all suffering ever experienced by all creatures since the beginning of life on this planet. Become aware of the food chain. only an evil, diabolical entity, if it existed would think of that"

Dan says: Yea Hurt, the one most glaring proof that a moral God, (at least as far as we puny humans define moral), does not exist or never created us, is the immoral way life is designed in the first place.

We are alive today only because every one of our ancestors, all the way back to the first creatures that crawled out of the slime, were the best at killing, eating, and reproducing (F-----g), and it is still going on today.

Nothing tastes better to me than a cheese burger or a chicken tender, and as we speak there are probably a million preachers out there who are trying to get into the panties of one of their flock, or if they aren't doing that, they are figuring out how they can steal more money from them.

I have never seen one Christian on this site, or ever heard one in my life, speak of the agony or suffering of the trillion or so creatures that had to die and are dying every day, so that we may live.

I have read comments from several Atheists and Agnostics addressing this problem, But Christians are in total denial when it comes to understanding natural selection, and survival of the fittest. They talk of Christian empathy and love, but totally ignore the fact that if it weren't for the absolute tyranny and ruthlessness of a few ancient Roman rulers, Christianity would have faded into history just like all the Pagan religions that spawned it.

Any Christian reading this, if you eat meat, just visualize a slaughter house with all the innocent animals waiting in line to be murdered, and hung on a hook, and processed assembly line style.

Think about who will be happy today, the strong, the rich, the healthy, the secure, the well fed, the beautiful, the intelligent, NOT the dumb, the ugly, the starving, the mistreated, the sick, the poor, and the weak. Does this look like the work of a moral God?

Dan (Realist, Agnostic, Omnivore)

Dave Van Allen said...


John, this is no more than a forum for the exchange of thoughts and reasons for belief or non-belief in Christianity. Melodrama like yours is for the stage and screen...and most pulpits.

This is a site for encouraging those who have left or are considering leaving Christianity. If you come here to preach, do you really expect placid agreement? Grow up.

Dave Van Allen said...

"Ya'll would not be sodefensive if you did not thimk Tabitha to be right!"

If I say Allah and Islam are bullshit, do I therefore think the Muslim religion is truth? If I shake my head in disgust at gun-toting fanatics in the Middle East, am I admitting to faith in the Koran?

Let me ask y'all something: isn't that one of the dumbest comments y'all have ever seen?

Thank y'all for sharing.

Dave Van Allen said...

John said: "But know this it is a fact that something acn't come from nothing. Soething had to create it"

Argumentum ad ignorantium: I can't understand all the mysteries of the Universe, therefore God exists.

John, if something can't come from nothing, and God is something, then God doesn't exist. Now if you say God is nothing, well, then we agree.

So which is it? Is God something or is HE nothing?

Anonymous said...

Dear hurt one; I appreciate your response, but you misundertand me.

I have doubts, yes, but my doubts are about atheism.

I don't know if I have enough faith to be an atheist anymore.

If I give up atheism, my atheist family will disown me.

What should I do>

freeman said...

Dear webmaster Dave,
How did you get into my head some 23 years ago and show me the ex-christian way? I cannot believe you are taking me to hell with you! Your website has lead me away from jesus long before there was even a website! How did you accomplish this feat? Are you some kind of deity also?

All bow to WebMASTER Dave!!!

Today, I shall worship Saturn!

The Catholic Heretic said...

Great. Tabitha, why not paint a target on yourself and go hunting? It would amount to the same thing as posting what you did on this web site.

No one on this site is going to go back to Christianity. The few Christians that do post here are slammed and I think that unless you have tremendous faith you are better off avoiding this site completely.

I’m a Christian (target painted :D) and I’m not here to change anyone’s mind. Try this web site =>

It is by far, safer for you. Leave theses sites to the tough Christians. Dust your sandals off and don’t return.

The Catholic Heretic

The Catholic Heretic said...


Get your facts straight. According to the BBC ( these villagers were not identified as being any particular faith. I bet you think it's a cover up, huh?


BTW: Before you get all uppity

freeman said...

Please look at that piece of shit son BG has raised!!!!
He is the spitting image of Pat Robertson. No moderation for Franklin now is there?! He condemns anyone and everyone who is not of the same ilk!

Therefore, Billy Graham is a failure!

Anonymous said...

As far as to who said that natural disasters are God's judgement are concerned, both mq59 and the anonymous that said it was Billy Graham who said that "natural disaster=God's judgement" are both wrong. It was actually a certain preacher by the name of Fred Phelps who said it, and who runs a "Christian" website that uses language that one would not expect from your average "Christian" website. While I don't exactly consider myself an "ex-Christian", some aspects of it, such as the numerous sects, warring doctrines, etc., do bother me. Somewhere in the Bible, we are told that "narrow is the way". Yet, numerous churches/sects are quite convinced that their particular flavor of "narrow" is best. In one church, which shall remain nameless, the men wear these black suits and no ties, whereas the women all wear these long gray dresses that cover them from neck to wrist to ankle, and no jewelry or makeup, or any other "ornamentation. They dress that way every single solitary day no matter what. Jehovah's Witnesses not only do not celebrate Christmas or Easter, or any other holidays for that matter, they don't even celebrate birthdays. Oh, and get this, they believe that Jesus died on a stake, NOT a cross. (This one really left me scratching my head). I could go on, but that'd take forever. The Bible has probably been redone so many times that it is not even funny.(It is not cool for God's words to be constantly tampered with). I have yet to find a verse in the Bible that says "Thou shalt (or shalt not) be a (Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Mennonite, or fill-in-the-blank here). I don't wish to scorn or condemn any of you "ex-Christians". Part of me doesn't really blame you for not wanting anything to do with Christianity anymore. I'm not trying to win anyone back to the Christian faith nor swearing it off. Though, for all I know, every "Christian" writing could someday turn out to be full of, well, you know. I hope to examine this matter further. There's my two cents worth. Take from it what you will.

Anonymous said...

Franklin Graham is scum! Here's a website, one of many, that discusses the true purpose of his "humanitarian" efforts.

Anonymous said...

xrayman - You are only partially correct when you said Billy Graham doesn't beg for money. This sentence is missing a word for the truth is, Billy Graham doesn't beg for money ANY MORE. He used to, but cut it out sometime in the early 1990s, when he had conned the suckers for all he needed - though there are some who still donate to the cause, "a fool and his money are soon parted" still being apropo.

The Catholic Heretic said...

I didn't know energy could think? From what basis in math did you get that?

God is not energy. Energy cannot think and it cerainly cannot create anything other than chunks of matter. Look up creation of matter. It is totally random.


Anonymous said...

here’s a proof from a Medieval Monk named Guido Ubaldus:

0 = 0 + 0 + 0 + …
= (1 - 1) + (1 - 1) + (1 - 1) + …
= 1 - 1 + 1 - 1 + 1 - 1 + …
= 1 + (-1 + 1) + (-1 + 1) + (-1 + 1) + …
= 1 + 0 + 0 + 0 + …
= 1

The Catholic Heretic said...


Never assume.

Anonymous said...

The Big Bang’s Big Problems

Although the big bang theory brings science closer to the Bible’s account of origins it certainly has its problems.

Firstly, the idea of a universe beginning with a big bang goes against empirical science and the laws of physics. The 1st Law of Thermodynamics has shown that energy and matter remain constant. They can be transferred from one into the other but neither can appear from nothing. Even basic common sense and logic tells us that it is obvious that something can simply not come from nothing. Where did matter come from? Scientists are unable to say where the matter that existed to create the big bang came from. The Bible tells us that a supernatural being called God brought it into being (Gen. 1:1).

Up until the time of Louis Pasteur (a scientist who was also a creationist), in the 19th century, science believed in spontaneous generation. People believed that living things could be produced from non-living things. Pasteur disproved this theory in 1859. As well as this, Pasteur also established the theory of biogenesis; that life can only come from already pre-existing life. Today, atheistic scientists stubbornly teach a form of spontaneous generation: that living matter arose in the universe from non-living matter (abiogenesis - life from non-life)! Christians, however, have maintained the scientific principle that life can only come from life (i.e. God).

The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics states that the everything in the universe is running down and decaying. But to believe in a big bang would mean that the opposite is true: out of chaos order came into being and rather than decaying and becoming more disorderly, life and the universe is becoming more orderly. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics refutes this. The Bible, far from being at odds with science (as some have erroneously been led to believe), actually tells us that the universe is running down and becoming more disorderly just as the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics has revealed (Isa. 51:6; Ps. 102:25-26; Rom. 8:21).

Secondly, what existed outside the matter that exploded in the big bang?

Thirdly, what was it that caused the bang? An effect always has a cause. What was the spark that lit the fuse? The Christian answer to this great first cause is God.

Fourthly, how can such order and complexity that we see in the universe and living things be created from such a disorder as a big bang? Common sense tells us that an big explosion results in a big mess. No one would argue that a work of art came about as the result of an explosion in a paint factory. The Bible tells us that the design of the universe that exists all around us is evidence of an intelligent designer (Ps. 19:1-4; Rom. 1:20).

Although the theory of the big bang brings us closer to the Biblical view of origins (that the universe has a beginning) it still falls short of explaining the complexity of the universe and the origin of life and matter. The Biblical account of the creation does not face these difficulties and makes much more sense than atheistic naturalistic explanations. The bottom line is many people put forward big theories like the big bang in an attempt to exclude God from the picture. To admit the existence of God means that people know that they must give an account of themselves to Him one day. The Bible says that the existence of God is obvious by what He has created and that people try and suppress the truth in unrighteousness:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,...For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools,... " (Rom. 1:18, 20-22)

Dave Van Allen said...

" cannot be created or destroyed..."

Therefore, there is something that exists without being created—energy.

Hmmm. Now we jump from that statement to Jesus is God and he is a flying, un-dead, man-god, savior on a stick.

That's a good jump.

If energy is eternal, and apparently mindless, then where exactly does your God come in? You stated previously that something cannot come from nothing. Now you say something (energy) exists without being created. I'm getting confused. Which is it? Everything needs a creator or there is something that doesn't need a creator? You can't have it both ways. If there is ANYTHING that exists without being created, then that something disproves your allegation that EVERYTHING requires a creator.

Even if I accept that your "energy" is your god, I still don't see how that immediately proves your religion has anything to do with your imagined primal energy.

Y'all need to try again. Uh-huck...

Anonymous said...

The Irony of the whole Billy Graham thing is that he spent his whole life talking about something that he knows absolutely nothing about.

He has been praised by presidents, and millions of followers, and practically worshiped all of his life by people who are desperate to believe that they will have a better life in an imaginary heaven when they die.

A six year old child knows more about God than Billy. At least the six year old isn't going all over the world pretending to know things that he doesn't. The six year old child who says "I don't know," is a better person than any of the slick preachers who ever lived.

I know more about God, than Billy Graham, or the Pope, because I know God has never been defined and never will. Billy is the leader of a cult, a big cult, a rich cult, but a cult none the least.

To all of those millions of people attending all of those crusades, Billy spoke of God, Satan, sin, miracles, and professed to know exactly what our creator wants us to do, and how to live our lives, but the fact of the matter is, no one knows what God is, God has spoken to no one, nor written any books, and given the fact that whatever "IT" is, it is generally agreed upon that "IT" is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, therefore making "IT" IMMORAL for knowing about all of the suffering in the world, and being able to do something about it, but doing nothing.

Billy Graham will die soon and when he does, he will be in the same place as every other creature that died in the last 3 billion years. The same place I will go to. The same place you will go to, the same place all of the Neanderthal men went to, and every man of every species that preceded him, and all of people who died in the Crusades, and wars, and all of the people the Catholic church killed during the dark ages, and all of the American Indians, and every other kind of Indian, and MY DOG SPOT!!!!

I know this as well as anyone else, because no one has ever come back from the dead. Yet!
Dan (Who doesn't need bullshitted to live my life)

Dave Van Allen said...

In your most recent post on this topic, John, you made quite a few dogmatic statements, gave God's opinion on marriage, talked about love, the contradictions you see in adoption vs. preservation of the species... It was a lot of stuff.

Do you have any references to back up your neat little theories? Perhaps some Bible verses even? Do you have anything besides, "That's the way I see it y'all" you?

Dave Van Allen said...

"Because the 3-Axis geometry of the body is caused by the 3-Axis geometry of real-space..."

John, you should really give a reference when you copy and paste stuff from the Internet.

So having copied and pasted a bunch of gobbledeegook, what does all that mean to y'all? Can you 'splain it to us igniant folk?

Anonymous said...

It looks to me that there has been a whole lot of "cuttin" and "pastin" going on!
Dan (Just a simple heathen)

Dave Van Allen said...

John, stop copying and pasting stuff from the Internet or you'll be scrubbed from the site.

You're acting like a troll, and a fanatical one at that. Cool it. If you have something to offer from your personal wisdom, please do so. If all you have left is copying and pasting stuff, then you're through. I'm not kidding.

Whether our scientific theories are complete or not is completely irrelevant to the discussion of 1) some god's existence and 2) that your god is the correct god.

If a scientific theory is eventually abandoned, it doesn't automatically default to "GOD, y'all!"

You must offer positive evidence for your deity, not just attempt to throw doubt on various complex scientific theories. If I throw doubt on quantum theory, does that mean Apollo drives his chariot across the sky to give us light during the day? Your reasoning is extremely limited here. "See, water can be gas, liquid or solid, therefore there is a Trinity!" Do you see how that makes absolutely no sense? Your reasoning makes no sense.

Anonymous said...

I'm with you, Dano Boy - whole lotta cutting & pasting. Personally, I don't waste my time reading the words of those with verbal diareah. Makes my head ache & life is too short.

Dave Van Allen said...

MQ, all you "prove" is that a god is an adequate explanation for some presently unexplainable phenomena. An adequate explanation is in no way an absolute explanation. In more ignorant times, the explanation for thunder and lightening—gods warring in the heavens, or the Hebrew God being mad about something—was an adequate explanation. We know more now, so that explanation has been abandoned in favor of a more accurate explanation.

I don't pretend to comprehend the vast complexities around the topics of physics, quantum or any other kind. However, I honestly don't see how these various complex ideas have anything to do with providing evidence for your deity.

Like I said, the belief there is some sort of mind/energy that pooped the Universe into being is as adequate as an explanation as any, as far as my comprehensive skills are concerned, but a merely adequate explanation is potentially a universe away from being even nominally correct.

Sorry, all the mumbo-jumbo does nothing toward proving your point to me.

Dave Van Allen said...

Read the site disclaimer and purpose MQ.

If your intention is to dominate this site, your time is almost up. There are thousands of Christian websites out there, of every flavor of Christianity on the globe. You and John's posting of dozens and dozens of posts, especially copy and pasting posts, is against the sites purpose and policy. If it continues, every post by both of you will be scrubbed.

This is a private website, and you're becoming annoying. You're not here to converse, or debate, or encorage anyone, you're obviously just here to preach, and I'm growing weary of it. .

Anonymous said...

Frankly, I didn't bother reading through all the quantum physics mumbo-jumbo. (Long blocks of text make my eyes glaze over.) But, even if it did offer proof of the existence of some type of creative force, that moves us not one sub-atomic particle closer to believing in the horrific gawd of the babble and his bastard son.

I'm willing to entertain the possibility that there is some kind of life force or creative energy that may, for the want of a better term, be called "god" (though I doubt it), but I have seen no evidence whatsoever that there is any sort of deity who is involved in our daily life, or gives a flying fuck about any individual. On the other hand, I have seen plenty of evidence that babble gawd and the whole shitload of christian crap is an outright lie.

So, sorry to disappoint you, mq59, but all the cutting & pasting in the world fails to put a kibosh on agnostic/atheist thought.

Anonymous said...

Ray said: Dear hurt one; I appreciate your response, but you misundertand me.

I have doubts, yes, but my doubts are about atheism.

I don't know if I have enough faith to be an atheist anymore.

If I give up atheism, my atheist family will disown me.

What should I do>

4/22/2006 9:42 AM

Hurt by Jesus responds:

Ray, with all due respect, maybe I'm wrong, but I think you're actually a christian mascarading as an atheist... Faith and atheism are not necessarily inclusive. You don't need faith to be an atheist. I hate this label and please ponder my posts carefully: I came to be like this because I got tired to be sodomized in life by this unnatural belief and by this irrational christian think that is called faith. True "atheists" never talk about faith, not anymore, even if they used to be a christian for half of their life. It's simply not a rational thing to rely on faith, and I want to be rational from now on. Belief in christianity has caused me and I'm sure others untold misery and cut us off from reality, as I posted before. Mark my words: YOU DO NOT REQUIRE FAITH TO NOT BELIEVE IN THE "GREAT lIE" YOU ONLY REQUIRE A STRONG SENSE OF REALITY AND, SOMETHING THAT CHRISTIANS SEEM TO LACK(NO DISRESPECT), COMMON SENSE. Christians like to talk about all these entities and manifestations etc, that have absolutely no bearing in real life. I'm sorry to say but having faith or not having faith has nothing to do with the issue at hand, but knowing what bullshit smells like when you see it, DOES.

Now, as far as your doubts in being an atheist, I would like to edify you, so please READ MY F__ING EARLIER POST, WHICH FOLLOWS IN PART:

" Shakespeare said, " thine own self be true" You must follow your own path and see what works for you. Nevertheless, if you feel that you've been banging your head against a wall and want to stop the pain, then start thinking for yourself. Just remember, Love is kind, anything else is not love, nor is it kind."


Love and mercy to all people and animals alike. Sadly, we go nowhere after death, it's just that we disassemble and yes, decompose forever(unless you try cryonics-see It's unlikely we possess a soul and as far as I can infer, what we call soul is nothing but an abstraction projected by the brain. See how I don't use the word "faith"? Faith is weak, stupid and evil. A scientific mind will use probability instead. I mean no disrespect, it's just that Christianity has HURT me so much and failed me, so I want to detoxify myself of it.

Last thing: Like I said, your "beliefs" should be sacred to you, I mean pure and honest, something that religion lacks.

Find the relative truth of your own existence and perceptions, without following blindly anyone else or having ulterior motives. I wish I had done that when I was younger and instead of taking all the bull__it in, I could've spared myself the grief and stench to nonexistent "High Heaven", so to speak.

Good luck!

Jim Arvo said...

mq59: "...I was merely wondering about why folks didn't like cutting/pasting."

It's a cheep substitute for *thinking*. Anybody can go out on the internet and find volumes of material that supports any view imaginable. If all you do is propagate the claptrap, then you're not contributing anything useful, and you're wasting everybody's time. Can you see that?

Furthermore, if all you are doing is cutting and pasting, then it means you probably don't even understand what you're posting here. Does the poster above actually understand either modal logic, quantum mechanics, etc.? I strongly suspect not. As for all the claptrap about the Big Bang, that's a bunch of nonsense that seems to be rooted in not-quite-understood freshman physics. Please don't waste our time with that BS. I sat down to compile a few links for you guys but, frankly, I've got better stuff to do.

I have a challenge for you guys. ONLY post what you completely understand and can defend. (I expect to hear nothing but silence if you take me up on that.)

Anonymous said...

Tabitha, I have a question for you.

How do you know that your god is the absolute truth? So what if the bible tells you so...The Koran says that Allah is the real god. And Jewish people don't believe that Jesus was anymore than just another man...
And I can say the samething for all the other world religions.

So what makes them wrong and you right? Did you find some stone tablets in the front yard that gave you the definitive answer?

For all you know you could be going to hell on a technicality, my dear...

Tabitha I was a TRUE christian in every since of the word. I believed with all my heart that Jesus was my lord and savior. I tithed, attended church, and involved myself in the church circles dutifully...
But you know what? I had to eventually come to reality and realize that the bible, like all other myths, is just that...A Myth.

If you read any other story that didn't call itself the Bible, but encompassed things like: Dragons, Giants, ressurrections from the dead, eight headed monsters, and etc you would say it is a Fantasy, right?
Well, that is how I feel about the Bible now.

I am still very theistic. I believe that there is a higher power in the universe. However, the God I believe in is not bound by religious dogma. He or she or It is not a malevolent tyrant who offers a "free Gift" with a stipulation attached(Follow me or die...Yet, we are supposed to have free will?). The god I believe in and pray to does not endorse: war, genocide, patricide, and hostile relationships between brothers and nations. The god in the bible, frankly, is EVIL. There is no love in him. He is filled with hate and contradiction...

While I still follow the message of Jesus I don't believe that he walked on water and rose from the dead, sorry...
Being a slave to a religion is no longer for me.

You enjoy yourself and keep praying for us. We will be just fine. I am happier now that I am a non-Christian. Atleast I can use my brain!

Jim Arvo said...


To follow up on my previous comment, please explain to me which modal operator you're employing in your "proof" above. In fact, which modal logic are you using (e.g. S2, S3, S4)? How does entailment work in that logic. Oh, and I almost split a gut laughing when I read the parenthetical comment about the "ultrafilter". Do you even know what an ultrafileter is? Explain how it applies to the modal logic you are employing. It's all BS, John. If you knew anything at all about mathematical logic, that would be clear to you. You see, that's why cutting and pasting is a joke.

I won't hold my breath waiting for a cogent reply. Good day.

Anonymous said...

mq59 you are acually wrong about quantum mechanics. The theory acually shows how matter can create itself from nothing......

Dave Van Allen said...

"Wer people back then just dumber. I don't thinks so."

I can't argue with that part of that comment.

Anonymous said...

May I interject... To John: As it happens, one well versed in botany would know that a seed never dies, to ressurect, (according to you)... A seed is live, it is not dead. Just my 2 cents.

Why is logic and knowledge and truth dead in their hands?

Anonymous said...

No disrespect, but can a certain someone spell or form a sentence or phrase properly and eloquently or...AT y'ALL?[sic]

Jim Arvo said...

You are dishonest, John. You are also arrogant if you think you have all the answers. The regulars here generally know that it takes real work to separate the wheat from the chaff, and that is part of intellectual honesty. Your religion seems to be brimming with people who will stop at nothing to indoctrinate others. Personally, I find that disgusting. If you cannot face facts honestly, and present what you know and don't know honestly, then you have little hope of contributing anything of value.

Jim Arvo said...

John also added "...Our nature is not seek God but run from him he seeks after us. But if we keep running he will quit chasing.... If you are far from God in life you will be far from God in death...."

But John, you have already clearly demonstrated that you are intellectually dishonest, so your dogmatic assertions carry even less weight than usual (not that it ever carries a weight appreciably different from zero). You pretend to know things that you do not, in an attempt to falsely influence others. It has also become clear to me that you are merely propagating unsubstantiated dogma. You are simply here to trick others into believing something that you have no way of knowing is true. You claim that your motive is compassion, but I strongly suspect that it is something else; stoking your ego. Rather than entering into a dialog, in which ideas can be shaped and tested, you look for shortcuts. That is not only dishonest, it is lazy, and ultimately dangerous. That is how unfounded ideologies grow and spread. Your religion is a spectacular example of that. Take your chicanery, multiply it by millions and spread it over thousands of years; what you get is a fantastic edifice with no foundation. You get "religion".

You ask about accelerating progress. Apparently you think that bolsters you case somehow (but you leave that implicit). Have you thought much about such questions, or do you simply acquiesce in the first explanation you can think of that "glorifies" your deity? What do you make of the remarkable explosion of ideas and progress in nearly every discipline that was sparked during the enlightenment? Was that not attributable, in large measure, to shaking off the stifling influence of Christianity (i.e. emerging from the Dark Ages)? The rapid and accelerating progress that we enjoy today is due to many factors, including: improved methods and institutions of science, growing numbers of scientists, more specialized training, improved communication, and an ever-growing base of knowledge that continually allows us to see further than before. It's an awesome enterprise, John, and it has precious little to do with your religion; in fact, the crucial step was to realize that religion is not the key to knowledge, but its very antithesis.

Until you of some like-minded believer can present some compelling evidence of cogent argument for the existence of your deity, I will continue to place him/her/it in the same category as Zeus, Mithra, Osiris, Krishna, and Allah; fictional constructs of the human imagination. I do not do so capriciously. I do so after earnestly studying Christianity and other religions for most of my life. My honest assessment is that it is an outmoded fiction that society will one day need to shake off in order to truly advance.

Anonymous said...

John, we here don't believe in your nonsensical religion.

On 4/22 at 7:00 am, you said "his best defense is for you not to believe he exists at all." On 4/22 at 9:30 pm, you said "and intelligent and moral person controlled by sata is his most dangerous weapon."

You appear to be referring to satan, suggesting he has some control over us. By doing so, do you hope to plant such an absurd notion into our heads? Dont you realize that the church to which you belong has you so brainwashed that you don't see that they've done exactly that to you? This is a trick used by the church for centuries that will not work here. Guilt and fear are the tools of the christian church. Get them to fear satan, then "plant Jesus" in them to "save" them. The problem is that we here see right through the doctrines of the christian church. We've been christians. We've read the bible. We're grown mature adults, and we've decided that we do not believe in christianity.

Would you close the door behind you on your way out, please?

Anonymous said...

Your attempts to prove the existence of God don't impress me. It really sounds like nonsense, to me. The bottom line, is that if there is a God, then each person would have to have his or her own experience with that God in their own way, if at all. For some, God may be a sense of God-realization while being "at one" with their surroundings, experiencing "Buddha-consciousness." To each their own.
Some here believe in the existence of a God, some debate, some disbelieve. It is christianity we do not believe in here.

Anonymous said...

The problem I have with Billy G is that in the early seventies, people were sticking their necks out by demonstrating and whatever else to make themselves heard against the Vietnam War. Meanwhile, Mr. Graham is hanging out playing golf with Nixon himself, and allegedly never said boo about it. Maybe he imagined some holy dimension to it....

* * * *

The other comment I have is regarding the paste job regarding how science actually shows the existence of the Big "G".

There is a lot of this going on, where slices of science are rhetorically sliced up and trotted out in the form of warped half-truths and lies that sound good to the average person inexperienced with, say, the second law of thermodynamics or whatever.

Often, though, you don't have to dig very deep to discover that the assertion made willfully misrepresents (at best) what science teaches.

At some point, no matter what the goal, this is dishonesty and lying. It may not be bearing false witness against a neighbor, but deliberately, intentionally, bearing false witness, period.

You don't need no steenking bible to know it's WRONG. If you need examples, read anything that ever came out of Kent Hovind's mouth.

Anonymous said...

John, you know why people back then weren't able to make scientific discoveries as quick as today? Because the churches put them down as soon as they made a discovery that didn't suit the belief system. The churches were powerful enough to slow down science very much. If it wasn't for stupid things like the inquisition against Galileo and so on science would have developed quicker sooner.

Anonymous said...

Great comments, everyone. yes, a boyfriend who says, I love you, love me back the way I want or I'll torture you for all eternity is a psychopath. That's the bible god for you.

Anonymous said...

Tabitha doesn't seem to have been back A seagull, obviously.

John did not answer any of Jim Arvo's questions about modal logic, etc. It's clear, John, that you do not understand what you cut and pasted. I knew from the first you were cutting and pasting, because the style of writing of your Goedel's ontological proof stuff was much different from the style of your own posts.

The sad thing is that you attacked Jim's character rather than replied to any point about Goedel's argument (or about modal logic).

I've noticed that even educated fundies do this. Push them to a certain point and they have nothing to say except "you reject the gospel because you love sin." No, on the contrary - fundies believe the gospel because they love the sins of pride, self-satisfaction, judgmentality, repression, hypocrisy... I could go on.

Jim Arvo said...

Getting back to the original poster...

Tabitha: "Hi There. I am so very worried about you."

You are worried because we do not share your theology, is that right? I might also express a similar concern for you, hoping that you will one day free yourself from religious indoctrination. In general I do not express such sentiments, however, because I believe you have the right to hold to whatever theology you wish, no matter how misguided I think it is. I can only hope that the truth will prevail one day. That's what sites like this are all about.

Tabitha: "There is not much I can say to you that I am sure you have not heard...."

But you're going to say it anyway. Here we go...

Tabitha: "If you have heard Billy Graham you have heard one of the most amazing people in this world."

I actually have some respect for Billy Graham. As far a religious leaders go (which is not so very far), I'd say he ranks fairly high on the integrity scale.

Tabitha: "I just hope your aware of how many people your influencing through this web site."

That's encouraging. Thanks.

Tabitha: "To send yourself to hell is one thing but to be held accountable for so many other souls you should be terrified."

Do you worry about Islamic Hell, Tabitha? Perhaps you should. You may be sending yourself and other Christians there by propagating blasphemies such as the belief that god became incarnate, or the polytheism of the trinity. On the other hand, if there is a god, maybe his "test" is to see who has sufficient integrity to reject the cruelties and absurdities of the Abramic religions, and adopt humanism, or maybe even Buddhism. In any case, merely asserting your just-so story carries no weight whatsoever. I do hope you realize that.

Tabitha: "Maybe your laughing but you won' t be when Jesus says I never knew you away from me."

I'm not laughing, but I am shaking my head, somewhat disgusted with what I'm reading.

Tabitha: "My heart hurts for people like you..."

The phrase "people like you" is frequently a tip-off. I've noticed that it very often announces the poster as a bigot, painting with a very broad brush.

Tabitha: "I will pray for you even though you don' t want it and you better pray that you do come back with your tail between your legs because you don't want to experience hell..."

Your religion sounds positively horrid to me; it's filled with ghastly threats and puerile bribes. I'd also like to point out that your rhetoric reveals you as anything but compassionate. You seem to delight in the prospect of being in the right, and being vindicated one day. That's very condescending, and somewhat childish.

Tabitha: "You had it right the first time please carefully weigh out your consequences for being agnostic verses christian."

I am an atheist, not an agnostic. I hold no beliefs in supernatural beings. I have reached my conclusions through diligent work in examining evidence from all quarters for many decades. I've read widely, considered all points of view, debated, written, and discussed endlessly. If "due diligence" has any meaning in this sphere, I can confidently claim it. Can you make a similar claim?

Tabitha: "Yours in christ....."

Yours in reality.

Anonymous said...

About John´s (somewhat spurious) claim that energy must have existed forever...

The sum total of energy in the universe is zero. If non-existence is defined as the color grey, then the universe is like a chessboard.

The Big Bang was not (Is, in fact, since it is still going on) an explosion, but an expansion, something rather different.

An explosion may not create order... neither did the Big Bang. Gravity did. Originally, the universe was filled with a fairly dispersed cloud of elemental particles, which eventually coalesced into hydrogen atoms (and maybe some Helium). Gravity caused the megacloud to contract into clouds, perhaps aided by black holes left over from the initial violent expansion.

A gas cloud (just like a suspended liquid) will naturally form swirls when it contracts, resulting in galaxies, and on a smaller scale, solar clouds which eventually contracted far enough for stars to ignite. There probably were no planets at this stage in the game, because there were no elements heavy enough yet.

But a star is a fusion plant, gravitonically forcing atoms together to form heavier elements - Hydrogen to Helium, for instance.
If a star is heavy enough, at the end of its existence it will collapse in on itself and violently bounce back - a nova, or even a supernova. In this event, more heavy elements are created, even ones as heavy as uranium.

So after the first generation of heavy stars had burned themselves out, heavier elements were available which, in turn, coalesced with the remains of the star to form a new, lighter star and a solar system with planets.

As for the very beginning...

Since the Bang by definition started as a quantum event (an event on the quantum scale - atoms and smaller) it is deprived of the need for a cause. Quantum events do not necessarily require a cause.

So we are faced with the somewhat amusing notion that the universe can be said to not actually exist, except as a ripple in a pond, and that there is not even an actual cause for the ripple in the first place... nor even a pond.

We are made of nothingness, split in half.

(Victor Stenger seems to think so, anyway)...

Abiogenesis? That is a mystery and always will be, unless we find a way of looking back in time. We will never have conclusive evidence of how life on Earth began.

HOWEVER... the gap between life and lifelessness is not as vast as is sometimes claimed by creationists. Evolution can occur on the molecular level, also... and the proposed problems involving radiation circumvented if life did not start on the surface of the ocean, but at the bottom instead... near one of the hot volcanic vents known as "black smokers".

There was enough time... in a single cubic centimeter of water, a hundred billion chemical interactions take place every second. How many, would you say, could occur in all of Earth´s oceans over a period of a hundred million years?

And consider this... There are four hundred billion stars in our galaxy alone, and we can perceive a hundred billion galaxies in the known universe. What are the odds that out of all planets in the universe, there is one that contains life?

Well, anyway... I see no need for a god anywhere.

Except maybe in your heart. Grow up.

Jim Arvo said...

Hi Anonymous,

That was a very good post. Thanks for sharing that. Let me add that Stenger has a very concise article that corroborates much of what you just said. It can be found here. I've posted this link before, but I think it's worth repeating.

Also, concerning abiogenesis... It's a fallacy that Louis Pasteur disproved abiogenesis; a fallacy that you will hear from creationists time and again. What Pasteur elegantly disproved was the hypothesis that abiogenesis was the mechanism by which bacteria and other living organism propagate. Bread does not become moldy because bacteria spontaneously generate from inanimate matter, but because the organisms are ubiquitous in our environment. He did not, and COULD NOT, test the hypothesis that life originally arose from inanimate matter. That both hypotheses are referred to as "abiogenesis" is an unfortunate choice of terminology; however, conflating the two very distinct ideas is absurd.

Anonymous said...

Annonymous wrote: "The bottom line is many people put forward big theories like the big bang in an attempt to exclude God from the picture. To admit the existence of God means that people know that they must give an account of themselves to Him one day."
How about reversing this analogy to: The bottom line is that Christians put forth big theories like creation in an attempt to include their God in the picture. To admit the lack of evidence for the existance of their deity would be admitting the false logic of their beliefs.

Anonymous said...

How anyone could worship a tyrant who sends people to hell for ANY reason is beyond me. Think about it. It's immoral and unethical to torture someone for ANY reason, let alone because they're not a member of your particular religion. Not to mention, how diabolical it would be to torture someone for all of eternity.

Use your brain. You have one, or you wouldn't be alive. Think about it.

Anonymous said...

Hey, don't blame God for sending you to suffer excruciating pain in the fires of hell for all eternity to punish you for whatever trifling sins you may have committed in your finite little life on earth. That was YOUR doing. YOU were the one who exercised free will. God gives us free will, but you'll go to hell if you dare use it.

Anonymous said...

you better pray that you do come back with your tail between your legs

My, doesn't that sound a bit aggressive? Aren't you sort of saying in that statement that we are somehow less than you,a dog returning to its pack, now the low dog in need of the whole pack's opprobrium? If you were really trying to reach us, well, um...what would Jesus do?


Anonymous said...

Typical X-ian: " Hey, don't blame God...ah la la la laaaah."

Excuse me, Typical X-ian, but we don't believe in God---namely, the X-ian god---so we do NOT "blame God" for anything. The words "God" and "sin" have no referant in reality. Stick it in your memory bank for the next time you go trolling, k? Thanks.

Typical X-ian: "God gives us free will, but you'll go to hell if you dare use it."

....::? ? ? ? ? ?::.....

Uh, in the context in which you use the word "free will", it means the ability to choose. You used your "free will" and "chose" god, did you not? Prepare to meet Satan, you ignoramous f%ck-tard. That's right, your incoherent ramblings just implicated you straight into hell, dork. LMAO!

PS: Great name, BTW.

Anonymous said...

boomslang...I think the whole typical christian "thinker" thing was a joke. Someone was being ironic. The last sentence gives it away. have a good one!

Anonymous said...

"To admit the existence of God means that people know that they must give an account of themselves to Him one day."

First, not all of us are agnostic or atheist. Some of us believe in a higher power, just not the psychotic one you believe in.

Second, when I give my account, at least self-righteous bigotry won't be on the list.

Third, I'd much rather burn in hell than spend eternity with a horror like biblegod. Your God makes Hitler look like Hello Kitty.

Anonymous said...

Felden, 'round these parts it's hard to tell the sarcastic biting buffoonery apart from the genuinely blundering buffoonery......if ya get my drift. Thanks for the heads-up, though. Peace.

Anonymous said...

Tabitha, I'll pray to God for you.

...The God of Ex-Chirstians!

Anonymous said...

boomSLANG: Gotcha! LMAO!

But, hey, I'm on your side. Just trying to show typical Xian thot.

Anonymous said...

Knew it... ;)

Anonymous said...

Yes, yes, already.....the name should have been a dead give-away, yet, I've seen fundies name themselves such things as "Kooky". So THAT'S my excuse. LMAO!

God 'less!

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the encouraging thoughts. To know that this site is influencial is heart warming.

Read on you may learn something after all :)

Anonymous said...

Tabitha, thank you for your kind concern, but, we will all be fine. Oblivion will not be noticed.

Yeah, love, I've heard of Billy Graham. The church my parents used to frog-march me to when I was much younger was one of the "hosts" for one of his crusades. I was one of the judas goats who went down when the "invitation" was given. I guess "The Call" needs amplified by a little trickery.

Anonymous said...

And, to the OP, my brain hurts for people like you.

Faith is the greatest invention of the con man. Faith is believing to a degree of certainty unwarranted by the available evidence. Why should that be a good idea? It's not a good idea. It's a terrible idea. It's a good way to get taken by con men.

You've been conned, conned so badly that you think people not conned in the same way that you've been conned are the one's who've been conned.

Think though. Who's the one that's required to believe "on faith?" It's you. You're the conned one.

Wake the fuck up. Are you a child? Or are you and adult? You really think you're never going to die, that you're going to heaven after your body rots? READ SOME BOOKS ABOUT NEUROSCIENCE. SERIOUSLY. We know enough about how the brain works that the notion sof a "soul" which survives the death of the body is as laughable as the idea the horeshoes bring good luck.

WAKE THE FUCK UP. Christianity is not real. Nor any other religions.

God damn, humans are fucking stupid.

Anonymous said...

I totally agree about all the TV preachers including billy graham. Why are they all so rich when according to the Good Book they should be following Jesus example of "not having anywhere to lay their head". Look up Joyce meyers once on line and take a look at her wealth and all that "god" has bestowed upon her. It is unbelievable.

Anonymous said...

Yes, some people were told to go down front when the "invitation" was given as that would draw some that might be reluctant to go on their own. Herd mentality, I guess. Long time ago. I keep thinking of all those bozos,

Anonymous said...

Hi Tabitha
You are right....I don,t want to experience hell....thats why I won,t be going back to evangelical christianity.

Jim Arvo said...

mq59: "My basic point was that it is a large leap from atheism or agnosticism to Christianity,...


mq59: "...but it is not so large a leap from a&a to Deism,....


mq59: "...or from Deism to Christianity.


While Deism posits some kind of creator, which cannot be fully defined or understood, it steers clear of all the nonsense that permeates Christianity; e.g. a "personal" creator who communicates through prophets, ancient books, and arcane "signs", and who donned flesh to walk upon the Earth while his other 2/3 kept at a safe distance, so that he could purposely die a grisly death so as to absolve us of crimes we did not commit, so that we would not be tortured eternally for exercising the free-will that we were granted by this "loving" being, etc. etc.

mq59: "If the existence of some sort of creator god can be established through quantum physics...that does not necessarily prove Christianity, but it does disprove outright atheism...."

If the existence of chocolate bunnies on Pluto can be established by studying podiatry, that does not necessarily prove that Pluto is inhabited, but it does disprove outright terachocolism (the thesis that chocolate is not likely to be found on other planets).

Let me put that another way. If the fact that the Moon is made of green cheese can be established by picking your nose, that does not automatically prove that it is made of *Swiss* cheese, but it does disprove outright the claims of scientists (who insist, based on direct observation, that it is made of rock).

My arguments are every bit as valid as yours. And your premises are every bit as absurd as mine.

Anonymous said...

Tabitha dear, whipe your mouth.
There's still a little bullshit on the side.

The Catholic Heretic said...

Man has this topic degraded. My prior statement to Tabitha goes for you too John. Go away now while you still can.

Webmaster: I agree with the cut/paste comments. I try and keep mine to a minimum and I always try to site my source via a URL.

Fellowhuman said...

I invite you to write an article for since you seem so worried for our souls. Although I completely disagree with you, we give everyone equal voice. Feel free to visit my site and write anything you want. As far as your post; I am a Realist. I do not believe in God, Heaven, or Hell. These are things used to control people through FEAR. Hell is something we are supposed to be afraid of causing us to convert. I refuse to be afraid of Santa, the Easter Bunny, or God's wrath or death itself.
Tim Rumford editor of

Fellowhuman said...

One last thing -


Anonymous said...

Yes mq59, everyone has broken atleast one of these rules, so what?

Who wrote those rules? MOSES, not any God!

If God created the whole Universe, why would he leave the path to salvation up to men and to the humans that he admitted regreted creating in the first place?

R.I.P mq59

Jim Arvo said...

mq59: "Are you so sure it's not so great of a leap from Deism to Christianity?"

Please go back and read my previous reply. My point is that it's a *huge* step from Deism to Christianity. Just ask any of the Deists here. There are quite a few.

mq59: "However, if you compare the universe to a watch, the watch is damaged. Look at all the problems in the world--war, starvation, etc."

What if I think the universe is more like a cumquat? Your superficial analogy does not get you very far. Please show me the analog of stellar evolution in a watch. How about planet formation? How about biological evolution?

mq59: "Perhaps the Watchmaker decided to fix the watch. Hence Christ."

What watchmaker?! If you posit a watchmaker you've already granted yourself exactly what is at issue. Have you any credible evidence that your god exists?

mq59: "Overall, although organized Christianity has done a lot of harm, it has also done a lot of good...."

What has that got to do with anything? Buddhists also do a lot of good. The Peace Corps also does a lot of good. So what? By the way, Christianity was a major impediment to both emancipation and suffrage in this country, and it continues to be the biggest impediment to gay rights, the right to die, federal funding for stem-cell research, etc. So, in my opinion, Christianity was and still is a major obstacle to creating a society that treats all people with dignity.

mq59: "And on the matter of "crimes we did not commit," everyone has sinned...."

I was referring to "original sin." Do you believe that doctrine or not?

mq59: "Some in small ways (stealing a candy bar)..."

Is eternal torture a just punishment for stealing a candy bar?

mq59: "Jesus said the Law and the Prophets could be summed up in two commandments,..."

Another off-topic tangent. What relevance does that have? You made what I thought was a very silly claim, that Deism is not so far from Christianity. The dogma that you keep reciting merely strengthens my point; that they are *very* distant.

Anonymous said...

mq59 on 04/24/06 at 11:45 pm, said:

"...if there is a God who created the universe, why is there so much suffering and evil in the world?"

And, "my point was that Christ was Gods repair plan."

The problem here, is that the christian church doesn't seem to see it that way. The church today is a "salvation machine" in accordance with its doctrines, focussing on the death and resurrection of Christ and salvation by grace, and on worshipping him. "Instant salvation" is guaranteed. Before the world can be "repaired" everybody must "accept Jesus," according to the church. Two thirds of the world does not believe in christianity. The bible teaches that Christ will return and the human race will be judged by God. The christian church believes in salvation by grace alone and that christians will be spared on judgement day, with non-christians being cast into the lake of fire, which "burneth and tormenteth forever and ever." The world will not be "saved." It is satan who will bring the world to harmony, before the end comes.

If Christ is "Gods repair plan" for the "suffering and evil in the world," how the hell is the church supposed to eliminate "suffering and evil" in the world when it is stuck in this way? Is the church failing in its purpose? Is it's only purpose to convince others to "accept Jesus?" Did Christ come merely to die, then ascend? What do you make of the gospels?


Anonymous said...

"New-agers" are working to create peace on earth. Buddhists are doing the same. Muslims are mostly peaceful, with some of them being homicidal murderers. Jews don't seem to bother anybody, for the most part, save for the occasional nutcase, perhaps. It seems as though there extremists in every religion. Christianity wants "armageddon," the "final battle between good and evil." Buddhism seems preferable, to me, really.

There are aproximately 10,000 religions in the world. some believe that they are all man-made. They could be right. It seems as though nobody really agrees on what the truth is. To each their own.

Anonymous said...

MQ59, you are a liar and you are deceitful. This isn't a personal insult, it's my honest inquiry into your posts, especially coming from one who boasts of being smart.

MQ59: "On the matter of original sin, I believe that Adam/Eve's sin tainted the human genetic code, giving us a propensity to do evil."

Really MQ59, do you really believe that a snake had a conversation with a human? That is absolutely ludicrous and silly? Do you know how utterly ridiculous that is for critically thinking people to believe? You said you are a smart person with high SAT scores. You do know there are smart people in every cult, right? You're in denial MQ59, face it.

MQ59: "However, I do not believe that God will hold people responsible for the sins of VERY distant ancestors. In the OT somewhere, it says not to punish sons for the father's sins or sons for the father's sins."

There you go again, MQ59. You are the typical Lee Strobel type of christian...cherry picking Buy-Bull verses that only support your biased views. I like how you add the words "VERY" in your last statement...typical of the deceitful Christian.

Exodus 20:5 & Deut 5:9 "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"

For the full list, go here. Hope you learn something(or is the denial too strong?)

Oh, and about your comments on abolition. Here's the words from your piece of shit Bible, that justifies slavery. Yes, your piece of shit God, or Jesus, NEVER denounced the institution of slavery:

Luke 12:47: "The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given."

Ephesians 6:5 NLT: "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ."

1 Tim 6:1: "Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them."

Exodus 21:20: "When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property."

Ex 21:7: "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment."


Finally MQ59. I have hope and faith. I have faith that you won't be deceitful in the future. I know, that's a huge leap of faith. haha. I have hope too. I hope you will give up superstition based on fear. I hope you will believe in yourself someday without any big sky daddy looking down on you.


Dave Van Allen said...

"By the time the 19th Amendment was passed, most of the individual states allowed women to vote."

And what year was this again? And what year did Christianity begin again? And what year did Christianity gain power over civil government throughout Europe?

So why did it take about 1900 years for any segment of Christianity to finally do the right thing in regards to women's rights? Why? Because it's not supernatural, that's why. Progressive secular Democracy is what helped allow women more rights in society. Christianity has always been about patriarchal hierarchy. Christianity would never have made women equal—never. I can say that with confidence because whenever Christianity has been in power, and had the ability to make sweeping changes in soceity, whether Catholic or Protestant, women were held back, considered to bee second-class citizens at best, and demonized as witches ata worst.

Jim Arvo said...

mq59: "Perhaps it [suffering and evil] wasn't there at the very beginning, but came along later...."

And perhaps we are all part of a grand experiment by an evil god. Or, perhaps, we're all just pets of some minor deity. Or perhaps we're all "brains in vats", or perhaps the result of somebody's dream. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps. What you continually fail to appreciate (and what I've been trying to illuminate with my analogies) is that you can say "perhaps" to anything at all that enters your head. Anything! And you can ponder aloud what the consequences of any wild scenario might be. But without SOMETHING to anchor that daydreaming, what's the point? Why waste our time and yours with baseless rambling?

my59: "I know I have not conclusively proven the existence of God-... "

That's a joke, right? To paraphrase Douglas Adams, you have not conclusively proven the existence of god in much the same way that the sea is not above the clouds.

mq59: "-I'm merely pointing out a 'step-by-step' process from Deism to Christianity...."

I can lay out a similar step-by-step process from Christianity to Satanism, or to solipsism for that matter. "Step-by-step" is not synonymous with "very similar to", especially when one of those "steps" involves a truck-load of absurd unsubstantiated dogma enshrined in a Bronze-Age largely-anonymous book of tall stories.

Trying to communicate with you is extraordinarily frustrating. You go off on these tangents, making wild strings of conjectures. You've never studied science, have you? I ask because when one sees how real progress in made (as in science), one immediately appreciates that conjectures and analogies will only take you so far. They can suggest what to explore next, but in themselves, they MEAN nothing, and they DEMONSTRATE nothing. Moreover, if you string a bunch of them together, you quickly get yourself into fairyland, with no tethers to reality.

mq59: "This talk about kumquats, planetary evolution, etc. is beside the point. No analogy is perfect."

Then you did get part of my point. The other part of my point, which you did not get, is that your analogy can be seen as being *arbitrarily* far off; that it is so incredibly simplistic that all you hope to do with it is draw incredibly simplistic inferences.

mq59: "Instead of a watch, how about a desktop computer? A computer is more complex than a watch."

Toward what end?! What point are you trying to make? Once again, you fail to frame an argument at all, but just toss out random fragments. And, no, a computer is not a good analogy for the universe for any purpose I can think of. A computer is not self-organizing; the universe is at many scales. A computer is a man-made artifact with a specific purpose; there is nothing a priori to indicate that the universe was "designed" for a specific purpose. I could make a long list...

mq59: "Furthermore, although many Southern slavers and their clerical pets justified slavery using the Bible, many abolitionists justified their opposition to slavery using the Bible. The record of Christianity is mixed."

Yes, of course it's mixed! But not evenly. From what I understand, the former were far more prevalent than the latter, and for good reason; the Bible was of very little use to those who wished to abolish slavery, yet it provided a WEALTH of ammunition for those who endorsed it. It worked in a similar way to thwart women's rights, and is today thwarting gay rights.

mq59: "Furthermore, not all Christians oppose embryonic stem cell research, which is the real controversial issue."

No, of course they don't! But we have a man in the White House who was put there in large measure because of religious fundamentalists. The administration's policy is infused with mystical thinking that is either shaped by or intended to appease the religious right. Opposition to stem cell research is but one small example.

mq59: "There are other sorts of stem cells..."


mq59: "Furthermore, I read awhile ago one could get stem cells from umbilical cords, placentas, or even human fat!"

Most of that is old news, and irrelevant. The POINT was that the religious right thwarts progress in countless directions because they see it as running counter to scripture, which is mostly an ancient relic with no relevance to modern society. The fact that there are exceptions is not relevant, unless you can show me that they are more than just exceptions--i.e. they are the "rule".

Anonymous said...

Hey, mq59. If one "accepts Jesus," and they're "saved," how do you explain Philippians 2:12, which reads, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling?" This, from the KJV.

Notice the line, "work out your own salvation." Paul said this to the Philippians. Why? What does this mean to you?

Anonymous said...

How does one correlate said passage with the doctrine of "salvation by grace alone," which the christian church is built upon?

Anonymous said...

Your post about the Indian witchcraft deaths (and the reply you got from The Catholic Heretic) made me curious.

The only hindu girl I know that has ever spoken to me about things that sounded like "magic" told me that her grandfather was one of the wisemen in his village. People would ask him to make deliveries painless for mothers, make childless couples have children, cure snake bites, and more similar stuff that I can't remember. She told me that another hindu wiseman in the same place did some rituals for making rain come and for preventing droughts and that such people were common in villages. I'll call Chandra again today and ask what they did to people who were thought to make bad stuff happen. She's Tamil though, so that being a different place maybe makes a difference.

Meanwhile, a google search on the topic turned up some interesting things:
Christianity Overwhelming Buddhism in India's North-East
Buddhist site which mentions both Assam and witchcraft
(2) One of the links stated that there have been something like 200 deaths of people accused of witchcraft in the region. All in recent times.
says that a hindu group march "protested the state government’s proposed law to ban witchcraft and blind faith as it was a ‘’harassment to the religious heads, saints and religious books.’’ The spokesman said they were in favour of the law against witchcraft, but it should not disturb anything pertaining to religion."
Seems the hindus are opposing their government's ban on witchcraft (in some part of the country) which they see as possibly impinging on local religion. Though they appear to understand two different kinds of witchcraft. Chandra said that the wisemen's charms, herbs, dances and ceremonies were old hindu practises. I wonder what they think is witchcraft, if these things are considered religion?
Late night BBC news consistently describes India as currently having "a communist backed government". One of my flatmates is Indian, and she called it communist outright. That might explain the religious bans.

Anyway muttmutt, you're not wrong for suspecting. After all, last year's msn news article "UK fears witchcraft" turned out to have a more revealing title in the England's Guardian newspaper where it was called something like "African Church exorcisms growing". So it had nothing to do with witchcraft and everything to do with Churches in the UK.
It's horrible stuff, where children suspected of possession and witchcraft are being murdered (exorcised to death).

Anonymous said...

Mq59, re: Phillippians 2:12

My point is that, if a person is "saved by grace alone," then one would not "work out ones salvation" at all! Again, Paul tells the Philippians "work out your salvation with fear and trembling." If "salvation" is being "saved" which, according to the church, means one is going to heaven when they die, then a person is "saved" for having "accepted Jesus," and nothing else! NOTHING ELSE SAVES, according to the church! A person may "sin" more than ever, really, and STILL go to heaven! Everybody else, of course, will burn forever. How ridiculous. Anyhow, clearly, we have a contradiction here, although a christian might not admit it. It's plain to the eye, frankly. This nonsense drove me crazy and drove me away from the church. Christians won't admit to the problems in the bible, and that drove me even further away! Be honest and admit it! This passage defies the doctrine of salvation by grace alone! If you won't admit it, well, goodbye to you AND the church! People here are honest and I prefer their company! If you won't be honest, then leave!

The doctrine of "salvation by grace alone," to me, is one of the biggest problems with the christian church. Do you believe that the bible is the "inerrant word of God, mq?"

Anonymous said...

MQ59: "On the matter of Phillippians 2:12, I think that means that people have responsibilities..."

On the matter of Philippians...

Philippians 1:10 - "That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ."

Thus the character Paul says to the Philippians, be chaste until the day of Christ, lest ye be forgotten in the book of life during judgement, e.g., judgement day. Paul believed Christ would return, "within" the lifetime of the New Testament authors.

Here, ruminate over these lines about how the end days were prophesied, to drive fear into early christians so they would "believe" and "obey" Paul without question...

Philippians 4:9 - "Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you."

Right, do as Paul says, and you shall receive the reward of peace and acceptance from a wrathful and jealous god.

Now, about those end-times and doomsday prophesies...

The end will come within the lifetime of Jesus's listeners.

"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." -- Matthew16:28

"But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God." -- Luke 9:27

"Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." -- Matthew 23:36

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." -- Matthew 24:34

"Nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." -- Matthew 26:64

"Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power." -- Mark 9:1

"Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done." -- Mark 13:30

"And ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." -- Mark 14:62

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." -- Luke 21:32

"Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?" -- John 21:22

The end will come within the lifetime of the the New Testament authors.

"Waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ ... that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." -- 1 Corinthians 1:7-8

"But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none." -- 1 Corinthians 7:29

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." -- 1 Thessalonians 4:17

"I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." -- 1 Thessalonians 5:23

"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son...." -- Hebrews 1:2

"But now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." -- Hebrews 9:26

"Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you." -- 1 Peter 1:20

"But the end of all things is at hand." -- 1 Peter 4:7

"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." -- 1 John 2:18

I won't even get into the passages that are vague, like the end will come "soon", but, obviously there appears to be a serious disconnect in the "gospels" e.g., gospel truth. Truth is objective and absolute according to many Christians, uh, that means, there shouldn't be contradiction in the bible on when judgement day is to arrive. However, I can see how its useful to keep people in perpetual "fear", looking out for the "soon" time-frame, as we know, the many passages that claim judgement day has already occurred, "didn't happen". Well, MQ59, unless you want to claim that we are living in the new kingdom of Christ, e.g., paradise on earth.

Anonymous said...

Hey MQ, question for ya:

Since you're admittedly a Christian(and I think you even admitted to being a troll, recently. lol); AND you're on an EX-Christian website; AND you have zero objective evidence for the existance of the Christian biblegod(other than "proof" that would make ANY of the other thousands of gods "true")....furthermore, AND you know that you will not RE-convert any rational minded thinker back to Christianity(if you don't, consider yourself informed)......then pray tell----WHAT are you doing here? Honestly, you are like a knat at a picnic. Shoo! lol.

Anonymous said...

MQ59, well, I had another five minutes to look up salvation, can you tell me which of these two methods allows me to be saved, thanks...

Salvation by Faith alone:

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

John 3:18, 36
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already .... He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 16:30-31
Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God salvation to every one that believeth.... As it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 3:20
By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight.

Romans 3:28
A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:2
For if Abraham were justified by works he hath whereof to glory?

Romans 4:13
For the promise ... was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 5:1
Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 10:9
If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Galatians 2:16
A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:11-12
The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

No, no, no, salvation requires more than just "faith" alone...

Philippians 2:12
"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

Psalm 62:12
For you render to each one according to his works.

Proverbs 10:16
The labour of the righteous tendeth to life: the fruit of the wicked to sin.

Jeremiah 17:10
I the Lord ... give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Ezekiel 18:27
When the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness ... and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul.

Matthew 12:37
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

Matthew 19:17
If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.

James 2:14
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

James 2:17
Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

1 Peter 1:17
The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work.

Revelation 2:23
I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life.

There are plenty more examples, if you need, however, why don't you tell us the MQ version of the "objective" truth, since we need to flip a coin when reading the bible.

Anonymous said...

MQ59 -"What makes you so sure none of y'all will come back?"(to Christianity)

You're right, MQ, I shouldn't speak for everybody---but as far as you and me, it's the same thing that makes us "sure" that neither of us will go back to leaving cookies and milk out for Santa. It's called LOGIC. We're both adults now, MQ, the only reason you haven't applied the very same skepticism to your God as you did to Santa, is because Santa hasn't promised MQ that he can live forever in the clouds somewhere. Ho, ho, ho! lol!

The belief in Heaven is impossible once you remove the greedy desire for it.

Anonymous said...


Luke 9:22 through 9:25 opens with Christ saying that "if any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me."

By saying "come after me," it would seem likely to me that Christ is making reference to entering heaven, or some "higher state," since that is where he is headed, and he would suggest that if one is to follow, one should do these things ("let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.") This is similar to the teaching of Buddha in liberating oneself from the karmic wheel of death and rebirth where one achieves "nirvana" by self-sacrificial living, among other things. Mohamed also taught something very similar, by teaching "surrender to the will of Allah." Alice Bailey taught that these are all "great masters" who came to show the human race the "way" out of human suffering, interestingly enough. Said "way" would be one of "virtuous living," including "self-sacrificial" living, according to Ms. Bailey.

9:24 and 9:25 follow in that same message, then 9:26 shows Christ making a reference to his return "in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels."

You say Christ is making reference to his transfiguration in 9:27. In 9:26, then, he is saying that if anybody is "ashamed" of him and of his words after the transfiguration, he will be ashamed of that person when he comes "in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels (KJV,)" having been transfigured.

This would suggest to me, that after said "transfiguration," any shame against Christ would essentially, be "reflected" back to that person, this being an effect of the divine light emanating from Christ. New-agers believe the divine emanation may produce such an effect.

In these passages then, Christ is teaching that one may experience a "transfiguration" by living a self-sacrificial life, again, as is taught in other religions.

How would one correlate this with the "doctrine of salvation by grace alone," anyway? It seems to me that if it were true that one is "saved by grace alone" then the bible need only be a page in length, with nothing but the virgin birth, the crucifixion, death and resurrection, and ascension.

In "The way of the peaceful warrior," by Dan Millman, a "spiritual master" hands the lead character an onion and asks "if you peel it all away, what remains?" The young aspirant replies, "nothing remains." The master replies, "yes, of course something remains. The universe remains!"

The principle of unity within all creation is a common one in the worlds religions.

Have you ever done an heroic deed, mq? Are you familiar with the statement "virtue is its own reward?" I once saved an infant from two dogs who turned and attacked me instead. I fought them off for ten minutes before the police arrived. It "lifts me up" to think about it. Makes me feel good. "Accepting Jesus" meant nothing to me. Saving a child without fear meant everything. If there's an afterlife, I have no fear of it. I don't believe in christianity and the above passage is one of many, many reasons as to why not. The christian hell is absurd to me, too.

Anonymous said...

MQ59: "However, the Luke 9:27 passage comes immediately before the Transfiguration, so it's not about the Second Coming at all."

If I didn't know better MQ, I'd say you are getting fodder for a report using this blog as a source. Anyway, you mention transfiguration in Luke... Okay, so, now we have a fourth option to choose from.

1-The end will come within the lifetime of the the New Testament authors.

2-The end will come within the lifetime of Jesus's listeners.

3-The end will come soon. (Within a couple thousand years or so.)

"The Lord is at hand." -- Philippians 4:5

"For the coming of the Lord draweth nigh." -- James 5:8

"For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry." -- Hebrews 10:37

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass. -- Revelation 1:1

"The time is at hand." -- Revelation 1:3

"Behold, I come quickly." -- Revelation 3:11, 22:7, 22:12

"Surely I come quickly." -- Revelation 22:20

4-The Lord will return after the transfiguration.

Thanks MQ, the fourth option of when to expect Christ, seems to have made his return, all the more clear. So, still, we are living in the new kingdom, or we are not, but, the time-frame of the second coming seems to be a little "cloudy", wouldn't you say. So, which is it, do we live in the new kingdom today, or not... just trying to figure out which passages of the bible appear to be amiss. That's the great thing about the bible though, so many options to choose from, depending on what one wants to believe. A regular Smorgasbord of endings, and alternative views, very flexible for those who want to be able to select a play out of the play book depending on what they want to justify, however, not so good for those who claim the bible is an "objective" book, written by a perfect god.

Well, since you brought up Luke, and the transfiguration, I feel I would be remiss, if we didn't inspect the alternative views...

When did the transfiguration occur?

--Six days after Jesus foretold his death.

Matthew 16:28 - 17:2 - "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them."

Mark 9:1-2 - "Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them."

Eight days after Jesus foretold his death.

Luke 9:27-28 - "But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias.

Since we are talking about Luke and people cheating death...

Jesus was the "Very First" person to rise from the dead.

Acts 26:23 - "That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead."

Oops, no, no, Jesus was just one of "many" who rose from the dead, I'll post a few passages, but there are more.

Luke 7:12-15 - "Now when he came nigh to the gate of the city, behold, there was a dead man carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow: and much people of the city was with her. And when the Lord saw her, he had compassion on her, and said unto her, Weep not. And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise. And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother."

Luke 9:30 - "And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias." Previously, dead!

1 Samuel 28:11, 14 - "Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel .... And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel."

1 Kings 17:22 - "And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived."

2 Kings 13:21 - "And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet."

John 11:43 - "And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth."

Well, MQ, that squares that away for me, now I have options for the coming of Jesus, the choice of how many days it took for Jesus' transfiguration, and of course, a myriad of choices on who was the first to be resurrected, and Jesus was only "one" option, out of many others, probability swings towards the many others as resurrecting first, especially for the Christians who like employing Pascal's Wager...

Anonymous said...

Dave8 as always smashing down his helpless opponents with his pverwhelming tsunami of knowledge...

It is a joy to behold. Education is always the enemy of blind faith.

Incidentally, Genesis does in no way, no way at all, EVER imply that the snake is anything else than a snake. There are many African creation myths where a message from the deity to mankind, usually about immortality, is intentionally or unintentionally jumbled by a snake or a dog, thus messing up mankind´s chance at immortality.

It is not until Revelation that it is suggested that the snake from Genesis was the Devil in disguise.
Nowhere in the Old Testament is this notion even hinted at.

Honesty and Christianity just don´t mix.

Anonymous said...

I don't know how I managed to do it, but I posted the following in the wrong page last time (
Sigh. Why does this sound familiar?

"Maybe your laughing but you won' t be when Jesus says I never knew you away from me."
"you better pray that you do come back with your tail between your legs because you don't want to experience hell."

you're not the first and you won't be the last, but I'm willing to reply anyway.
I don't know about you, (but I have no tail,) but I'd always learnt not to accept being blackmailed. Only encourages the blackmailer. In this case jealous God and Jesus, who obviously need me to accept them - or Him (referring to the three-unity doctrine).

I've always wondered why God only has the power to send you to Hell AFTER you're dead. Is God so powerless during life that he can't toss directly into Hell every single unbeliever and blasphemer the minute they don't accept him? I mean, omniscient God already knows I'm going to keep disbelieving in him to the very end, why doesn't he just start grilling me already? Saves him time. Else either omniscience or free will is a joke.
It seems God's power only works in the mysterious AFTER-death period which not even a scientist knows anything about for sure. Inventing horrors for what people don't know just so that they'll waste their life on religion must be among the worst forms of terrorism.

But you obviously believe in Hell, Tabitha, so just tell me, where am I going? Greek Hades or Tartarus, Gehenna - Jerusalem's garbage dump where my corpse will never be buried anyway, or visiting the Norse goddess of the underworld, Hel? Or maybe I'm going to Sheol?

In any case, you're never going to Paradaiza. Not unless you believe in the Persian god(s). You do know that Paradaiza's an ancient Indo-Iranian word and Persian concept right? It entered Hebrew and from there we got the idea of Paradise.

See you in Sheol, Tabitha, because according to Jewish beliefs (before Persian influence), that's where all the dead go. Sounds boring, but if that's how it is, we'll all just have to accept it.

Anonymous said...

Hey Leonard, I totally agree with your insight, "...Genesis does in no way, no way at all, EVER imply that the snake is anything else than a snake."

"The creation story found in the book of Genesis reports that a serpent tempted Adam and Eve to partake of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. In the Jewish tradition, the serpent was always taken to be literally a snake; the story tells us the origin of how the snake lost its legs. Later Christian theologies interpreted this serpent to be Satan, to the point where many Christians are unaware that the actual Hebrew text does not identify the serpent as Satan. In Eastern Orthodox Christianity, Satan is one of humanity's three enemies, along with sin and death (in some other forms of Christianity the other two enemies of mankind are "the world" (Jam 4:4), and self (man's natural tendency to sin); Rom 6:6)."

I don't think its naturally productive to reflect on ones' "self" as being an advesary or enemy. All these christians claiming that their religion is providing them meaning, but the "true" meaning, is self-hatred, first, and foremost, and the only cure is more Jesus.

Further, "An example is found in Genesis: The serpent who had Eve eat the forbidden fruit. The consensus of the Biblical commentators in classical Judaism is that the serpent of the narrative in Genesis was literally a serpent. They differ regarding what it represented: The evil inclination (Yetzer HaRa), Satan, or the Angel of Death. Others have suggested that the serpent was a phallic symbol. According to the Midrash, before this cunning beast was cursed, it stood erect and was endowed with some faculty of communication. It is interesting to note, in this connection, that sperm "communicates" genetic information via DNA. The creative message is also known as the Logos (Gr. meaning Word)."

Perhaps, if christians searched for the truth, they would not be so reticent when discussing the blatant symbolism, of the Jewish Tanakh, as there is obviously mysticism and embedded symbolism throughout. A typical christian, wants to accept the New Testament as literally true, because its the "new" covenant and their promise to equal salvation, its unfortunate that they have to claim that the god that gave them that salvation opportunity, had to be the exact same god of the old testament.

Alas, it was required though, as part of the agenda was to remove Jewish exclusivity and open shop with equal opportunity. Anyone, who can read, knows that the god of the OT is "not" the god of the NT. Many unlearned christians want to read the NT literally, because this is the part of the bible that gives them salvation, but once they make "literal" claims, they open themselves up for "literal" interpretation of the OT/Tanakh, and the Tanakh was not written to be read literally, hence, why Paul "preached" his own version of the Tanakh, assigning different contextual meaning to the symbolism :-) Take care...

Anonymous said...

175 comments,...thats's got to be a record?Webmaster must be proud!
You should be!Oh Master,we worship thee,!

Dave Van Allen said...

There are others with more: 680, 462, just for two off the top.

Anonymous said...

Don`t worry about us. We are fine. I suggest that mind your own morals and pray for your self. That is if anyone is listening.

Anonymous said...

Concerning MQ59's barrage of posts: All derivitive of presuppositions founded on nothing but the subjective belief that the X-ian bible is true because......well, because it SAYS it's true.

Zero objective evidence?... zero belief.

Webmaster, please disinfect.

Anonymous said...

Hey, mq! What do you make of Luke
9:22 through 9:27? Did you read my comments on said passages? If Christ is teaching the way that a person may be "transfigured," then why doesn't the church teach the same thing? It seems that the church focuses on the doctrine of salvation by grace and hardly touches the gospels, to me.

Do you believe that John 3:16 supports the doctrine of salvation by grace? If so, then how?

Anonymous said...

MQ59: "On the matter of the Acts passage, the passage is recording what Paul said it to Felix. It is not a "thus saith the Lord" theological statement by Paul like much of the Epistles--if it were, it would be quite wrong given the Scriptures you posted earlier."

So... we should disregard the books such as Acts, as divine guidance because the statement "thus saith the lord" isn't written? You do realize, that the book of Acts, was written most likely, according to most scholars by the same author as Luke, you know, one of the books of "the gospels"

So, by saying, disregard books such as Acts, you must remove the authors of those books as well, if you remove the author of Acts, you remove the author of Luke, if you remove the author of Luke, then, you may as well remove the other three gospels that don't suggest "thus, saith the lord", if you remove the gospels, you have effectively removed Jesus, and thus, you have effectively removed "christianity" as being a legitimate religion.

It is almost wholly undisputed that Romans was written by Paul, across the scholarly spectrum. So, lets see what Paul has to teach us today.

Romans 1:22 - "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,"

So, Paul is calling everyone who claims to be wise, "fools". Lets see what one of the gospels has to say about Paul.

Matthew 5:22 - "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

If the gospels are "relevant", then it appears Paul, speaking "thus saith the lord" passages, has been condemned by one of the divinely inspired gospel authors. So, is Paul in hell? I suppose, you could assert that the gospels, really aren't all that accurate and inspired by the divine word of god. So, do you have a Paul bible laying around somewhere MQ.

If you want to say, Paul has greater authority, and is beyond the bible's authority, i.e., above the law, etc., then lets see what noble advice Paul gives, on hehalf of your god.

Romans 12:14 - "Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not."

Paul says we should "bless and curse not." Yet in 1 Corinthians (16:22), which, he is also undisputedly held as the author, he refuses to obey his own words.

1 Corinthians 16:22 - "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha."

in this verse Paul curses those who don't love Jesus and says that they are to be "anathema" (damned).

Its understandable, how christians are so confused, some refuse some of the books of the bible, as not godly inspired or divinely guided writings, but "Paul" was the original keystone to the early Roman Chursh, and he couldn't determine whether to Care for everyone equally, or Curse those who were not christian. It seems, many christians today, can't figure out whether to hate non-christians/believers or accept people without bigotry.

Paul's total confusion on the matter, doesn't provide "any" guidance a christian could use, and thus, a christian has to choose between the options. MQ, when multiple choices are offered in a book, the more unpredictable those who follow the book become.

Personally, I don't really care what a person believes, as long as they are "consistent" in their beliefs and they abide by law. MQ, your bible doesn't provide that consistency amongst the generalized christian spectrum. I detest, the chaos and randomness that is associated with those who read the same bible, and yet approach day-to-day life with entirely different philosophies.

One bible, and a christian can either care for non-believers or "hate" non-believers, its their choice and both options are valid, depending on apologetic claims.

Anonymous said...

Good points, Dave8. I especially liked the last paragraph.

On another thread 1 John 2:2 was recently mentioned, where John the apostle, who is also the author of the gospel of John (according to my King James version,) states that Christ is "the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." defines propitiation as "a conciliatory offering to a God." This means that we are all going to heaven, because Christ died for us all! EVERYBODY! How does this correlate with "final judgement" scenario in revelations, where some among us are "cast into the lake of fire?"

Apparently, "accepting Jesus" means nothing, according to 1 John 2:2, the author of the gospel of John!!

WTF. I'd rather retain my integrity than be a christian.

Anonymous said...

In 1 John 2:4 we have another interesting passage-"He that saith, I know him (Jesus,) and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

This means that anybody who "walks with Jesus," therefore knowing him, and does not do as he said is a liar, and "the truth is not in him."

Pat Robertson comes to mind.

I could go into "the commandments of Jesus," but why bother.

Anonymous said...

Slingshot: "I'd rather retain my integrity than be a christian."

Mental integrity, is a good thing, I find that I have much more use for sanity, than claiming labels to define me :-) Take care...

Anonymous said...

I couldn't have said it better myself, Dave8.

Anonymous said...

hi all :)

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