Hi,
I've come to this site off and on for the last few months to see what's being talked about and I really enjoy it. You see, I'm a Christian (as in, one that worships God and believes that Jesus is the only way to Heaven, although there is obviously more to it than that).
I can appreciate the reasons why so many people leave the Christian faith. Some of my friends & family have done so and have similar arguments that feature alot on this site, but I have investigated a few of them and have found inconclusive evidence either way.
To be honest, this post has no real point, I just wanted to let you know that I respect your decision to not worship God and that that doesn't make me a better person than you.
Warm regards,
Joel B
These letters were published between January 2001 and February 2010. To view recent posts, go to The Main Blog at ExChristian.Net
61 comments:
Thanks, Joel. You're right that it doesn't make anybody better than anybody else. It probably also means there's still hope for you, too. Write again and let us know when you've thrown off the old superstitions. ;-)
Sounds nice Joel. But wait a minute...if you believe that you're going to heaven and that nonChristians are going hell, how's that different from believing that you're better off than we are? It sounds like you still have "an us against them" religion.
that's quite nice actually. Nice to see a christian posting on here who isn't attacking us or telling us that they are crying and that thier going to get thier whole church to pray for us or stage a protest against this "anti god devil worship" and hope that god will take the webiste down. Anyway that was nice, whoever posted that respected other peoples opinions and respected that christianity is just thier opinion. Anyway i haven't got one harsh word against whoever posted that. Thankyou in fact.
Joel B,
Hey Joel! I want to worship God too. Who is or what is God? I would like to go to heaven when I die also. Let me see if I have this right now.
The force that created everything, including every aspect of our personalities, decided that there was a design flaw in some of us, and we were not performing like we were programmed to perform. We were not worshiping him like he thought he had programmed us to. You see the creator of everything needs to be worshiped. I know it sounds strange, but the creator of everything needs our worship!
He tried murdering a bunch of us, off and on. (Well, I guess you couldn't call it murder since he made us in the first place), or should I say he recalled a bunch of us every now and then, but eventually came up with a better plan. He decided to get one of his female creations pregnant with a male child, mysteriously call that male child his only son, and then arrange to have the boy murdered as a sacrifice to himself. (Some religions ascribe to the Idea that God and his only son were actually one and the same)
Strangely, this sacrifice of this special human, to God, made him happy. He needed a blood sacrifice real badly.
Now you might ask where he got that idea. Well, Some of his creations, ( mentioned earlier), had a design flaw whereas they were inventing Gods, and the having these Gods make mortal women pregnant, and then calling the offspring, sons and daughters, of those gods, so in a sense the creator of everything kind of stole the idea from some of his earlier, defective creations.
So now, all you have to do is believe this story, and you go to heaven. Right Joel?
God did sorta of give us an alternative to believing this story though. If you can't wrap your logical mind around the sacrifice story or if you live in a place where the story is not taught or if you lived before he came up with the idea, or if you live in a country where you will have your head cut off for even repeating the story, you can spend an eternity burning in a fiery hell. Right Joel?
Dan (Rationalist)
Hello Joel,
Thanks for the friendly post. It's a breath of fresh air, considering that we're usually screeched at
by the believing Christians who somehow end up at this site. I think you will find that most of us here have no problem whatsoever with those who hold religious beliefs. The problem comes when believers decide that we are somehow obliged to hold the same beliefs, usually backed by ugly threats. I think we can agree that such behavior benefits nobody. So, all the best to you. If you are happy in your beliefs, and are mature enough to accept that others can legitimately hold different views, then there is nothing at all to quarrel about.
Yeah, please, let's not attack the nice Christians that come here. If we ever wish to get rid of religious bigotry, we should respect people's rights to believe in whatever they like. When we startt attacking Evangelical Christians for their faith, that's no better than the Evangelical attacking us for ours. Actually, I think it's a breath of fresh air to see a Christian who is understanding of us - rather than these Christians who who only come here to attack us. So, please, show your resentment only against the Christians who deserve it.
You're welcome Joel. It's a shame that a seemingly endless horde of fundie numbnuts pours their filth over this place daily and so few reasonable believers of the christian kind bother to make themselves heard here...
In that sense, be thee blessed by whatever Divine forces may or may not be out there! ;)
It's the fundies we have a problem with, not the peaceful non-judgemental christians. Thanks for
reminding us that not all christians are closed-minded jerks!
I have a problem with all Christians. Reason being, They contribute to church funds which, in turn help to promote more propaganda and gives churches the numbers to try to infilterate governments and instill their indoctrinated religious views on everybody else. There is no document reliable evidence as to the existence of a God, Jesus, Heaven Hell, Satan, Angels or Demons. Most of the world problems that we face today are brought about by world wide religious institutions.
BILL is civil with joel, and hopes that joel will find his way out of christianity. and he ends with a cute smiley face.
AnonymouS is glad that joel wrote something better than the last christian's post. Anonymous in fact thanks joel.
Dano breaks out the sarcasm early on Joel. Dano goes on with his hostile, sarcastic, and patronizing arguments against joel and joel's belief in god and the bible. Dano knew that sarcasm was a tactic used on this website countless times, but he thought he'd put his own flavor to it.
Jim A decides to be nicer to Joel than to most christians he's encountered on this site. Jim lets Joel know that he doesnt like it when Christians verbally attack him and threaten him with god and fire. Jim finds joel to be a mature person and wishes that there were more christians like him.
Peace and Love makes his case against ex-christian hypocracy. Peace and love wants the free thinkers to only be resentful to christians when they feel attacked by them. You be your own judge of when you feel attacked. Joel was not resentful when he wrote his letter, even though he had to look at Messy Marvin pissing on a jesus fish while he wrote it.
Thurisaz wishes joel well.
Freedy thanks Joel for not being a close-minded jerk.
Jim disagree's with all who wish joel well. Jim is hardcore and won't be silent when joel and the rest like him come to this site to committ their hate crimes.
almost all of this sites responses to a christian are represented here
Missing Comments:
-someone to correct grammar and spelling
-anything from webmaster
-someone to give joel a link to some other site with "facts" that may or may not even be true
-someone to create a their own cool combination of cuss words towards fundies (also, the word "fundie" needs to be used about another 15 times)
I appreciated what Joel said. Here we have a christian who has been reading this website, and who, when deciding to reply, seemed to have no problem remaining civil about his beliefs and his views on ours.
I am an ex-christian, but not an athiest or agnostic--I'm pagan. I have my own beliefs, and am happy enough with them that I married an agnostic. I have no problem with people who do not believe in some sort of sentient creator, and I don't have a problem with those who DO believe, just in a different way than I, so long as they don't attempt to force their beliefs on me.
That's actually why I like this site. As a general rule, there tends to be a lot of intelligent conversation and debate going on.
However, I think that to LOOK for reasons to nitpick at a christian who, after having read posts, comes in here, and decides to make his own post (a post which does not attempt to proselytize, condemn, or any other offensive thing, incidentally) expressing his interest in the site and requesting that we do not judge all christians in the same light as most of the jackasses who make fiery, self-righteous posts of condemnation.
I have several christian friends, and they accept me as a pagan. They accept that God/dess has approached me in a way that works for me, and by doing so, do not presume to limit God/dess through their own egoism ("God/dess" can be read as whatEVER you believe in, whether it be an actual deity, evolutionary nature, or yourself).
While I acknowledge that most christians tend to be self-righteous and viral (in that they tend to obliterate the host and force that host to infect others), I also acknowledge that not all christians can be arbitrarily placed in such a category.
I believe that Joel has proven that, and I applaud his civil, polite, cogent post. It sounds as if it's something he's been thinking about, and has come to the conclusion that not everyone has to believe the WAY he does in order to be a "good" or "worthy" person, and has accepted that fact.
That's not always an easy conclusion to come to, and when people do come to the conclusion to be so tolerant, especially when that tolerance flies in the face of their own beliefs, they should be given credit for that.
I say this because, reading over the replies, it seemed to me that a few posters were attempting to provoke Joel into a theological argument, which is childish. We get enough fundie freaks in here that a theological argument does not have to be forced. He's letting you believe what you want; the mature thing to do would be to give him the same consideration.
Actually, Jim Arvo, I would say very few people here are tolerant of anybody holding any religious beliefs whatsoever. It's a kind of reverse bigotry. I've been on the message boards here as a fellow ex-Christian, but people still hate me for believing in Divinity.
To Anonymous,
Please pardon my ignorance but what is Divinity?
Hey Joel, I was a Christian once too.
It was fun while it lasted, good luck with your faith.
Joel B,
You make two great points:
1)There is no conclusive evidence one way or the other.
2) You are so cool that you forgive us for not believing like you.
Guess what, if God exists, he is at least as cool as you, and he doesn't take it against us the fact that we don't believe.
The guy is way too confident to be offended by mere humans not believing in him.
Take care
Lorena
Anonymous said "Actually, Jim Arvo, I would say very few people here are tolerant of anybody holding any religious beliefs whatsoever. It's a kind of reverse bigotry. I've been on the message boards here as a fellow ex-Christian, but people still hate me for believing in Divinity."
Well, I guess we each see what we want to see, then. What *I* see here on a daily basis is numerous people affirming that everybody has the right to believe what they want. Look in almost any thread; it's there. Of course, what you will also see is lively and sometimes heated debate. While I feel no animosity toward believers simply for believing, I still 1) disagree with them, and will explain at length why that is the case, and 2) rebuke them if they chastise others for not sharing their beliefs.
And, by the way, I don't know what you mean by "believing in Divinity" either. I'm guessing that means you believe in some kind of deity. If so, that's fine with me and most of the others here, so long as you accept that many of us do not share your belief. Indeed, many come here specifically to shake off the last vestiges of such beliefs.
stupid christian. Does an obviously slanted synopsis of this thread.
So, what is your point stupid?
Jim, good point,but most on the fence christies do little to
promote churchianity.It's the radical(20%)who fund and run those who are part of the,...
"Religious Wrong"!!!!
"Stupid Christian" does an evaluation of an Ex-Christian website, but not-too-suprisingly, on his/her "Missing Comments" section?...they fail to mention the "Freethinker" who only asks for objective evidence before one spouts off their trap.
Joel, you are a human being pretending to be a christian, because you have been led to believe in a ancient myth, past down from generation to generation, based out of fear of death and the unknown and ignorance.
The people that wrote the bible were very ignorant and believed in supertitions, ghosts, angels, spirits, demons, lords, gods, visions, dreams, prophets, etc.
The god of the bible was the best unexplainable answer they could invent to appease the kings and rulers of that time, otherwise they would have been beheaded or thrown to the Lions.
Before the pilgrims brought over the bible, No one on American soil had ever heard of god or jesus or angels, souls, jesus, demons, etc.
It is estimated that there were 100 million Native American Indians whom lived in sin without a savior and were doomed straight to hell.
Also before the pilgrims brought over the bible, there was not a single church on American soil, now look at many churches there are preaching their corrupt message of a man, impregnated by an invisible being into a young virgin of descent from corrupt group of humans. How were people saved from their sins while jesus was growing up from a baby to the age of 12?
I guess it would never occur to some people that the whole bible and story of jesus was a complete hoax and scam. Thats the reason many people self claim titles, it validates their self worth.
Joel, I'm not against you personally, I'm against what you and others have allowed themselves to believe just by their word, without one speck of evidence or proof, I mean, it's been over 2000 years since jesus's death and not one shred of proof or evidence can be provided, Jesus told his diciples and thought too that he was going to return in their lifetime (mark 9:1) because he had been told since birth that he was from god, and he believed that he was, but none of it is true. It's all just a belief that people want to believe. A belief is a myth or fairytale that one prefers to hold on to, in spite of common sense or valid evidence, mostly out of some fear of eternal punishment.
By calling oneself a christian makes one believe and feel that they will have a better chance getting into heaven over someone calling themselves a Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Atheist, etc. The big surprize will come when they ask for the written document that will verify that you are a christian, before you can enter into heaven, without that written document you will surely be cast into hell. It's all a man made hoax, and you bought into the lie, hook line and sinker, some fish huh? Jesus said, I will make you fishers of men, and you took the bait and now you're hooked into the jesus cult myth hoax, preachers love you and your money and they own you and your money.
Hey, stoopid xian,
yoor redundant.
Is JIM at the 9th post, the same Jim Arvo? In any case I have a problem with you JIM. Just like you " have a problem with all Christians" as the reason for your problem is they support their belief. And that belief has caused many problems in life. So does Alcohol, that doesn’t mean I don’t drink! That logic or behavior is no different from the head strong Christians. Someone said "reverse bigotry". I agree! Attack the theology, like Dano did if you like, but not the person.... Joel did not deserve that, and who are you to be so harsh. My Grandmother believes, who are you to have a “problem with her”! I like this sight, I too am a ex-believer, but some of you are no diffrent then they with your judgements or your lack of tactfulness. And for those of you who are Athiest, and have lost all hope for something after - fine for you, but don't judge us that may still believe or hope for something more! Some of you sound as if you are so cock sure of yourself. Yeah just like you were when u were a believer! I can see there are some that have not some similarities to their past belief, like imposing them on others! I have found that some chacteristics in people don’t change, it’s simply whats on their soapbox.
Wow, I didn't expect many replies to my original post. As I mentioned, I have found only inconclusive evidence of the arguments for and against Christianity. The big problem I find is that:
a) Christians argue based on the Bible that they believe, because its God's inspired word, which starts a bit of a cycle (God proves Bible proves God etc , and
b) non-Christians use the Bible they don't believe to prove their points.
I have no insight into the experiences of others and I don't suggest for a moment that the Christian faith is based solely on experience, but for me, Christianity is a hope that I can rely on and a guide for how I should live.
Totally unrelated to this, I accept that Christians and the Church have done a lot of bad things, but I also believe that they have done a lot of good in this world.
Warm regards,
Joel B
I happen to agree with what Ben said, very brilliant...Thanks Ben, Kevin
Joel B -
About your comment: "Christians argue based on the Bible that they believe, because its God's inspired word, which starts a bit of a cycle".
What basis do you suppose Christians SHOULD argue from, if not the Bible? For any true Christian, their life and all that they think, believe and how they act should be based upon the Bible. How can a person expect to obey God if they reject the Word that He has given to them? Non-Christians base their lives around, well...whatever they want to. This is why, obviously, Chritians and Non-Christians disagree on so many things. How can they be expected to understand each other's belifs if they are viewing them in 2 totally different ways?!
Now obviously this sounds like "duh" but just hear me out. It's really a whole different aspect on beliefs than people are used to.
For the Christian, he does not need "proof" or "science" or any sort of "evidence" from anyone. He need not concern himself with matters that are already laid out for him clearly in God's word. The non-believer, however, will NEVER understand this at all. They are defining everything on their OWN terms. Who decided that people need to have evidence or proof of something first in order to make it "true" or to agree with it? "Well it just makes sense." Yeah, but what defines something as "sensical" to an unbeliever? Whatever they want to make sense makes sense to them. See, they are defining everything on their own terms, and if that is true, then how can everyone be right on their own terms? They can't. However, things are very different for the Christian. His life is completely defined by God's terms. It's relativley simple: Chritians base everything (their valeus, morals, conduct, beliefs - EVERYTHING) on God's Word. They don't need "proof" to make anything true or correct (again, who came up with the idea that we need proof to define truth? - the unbeliver did).
Anyways, sorry this is a rambling tangent, but it really is all connected. Real Christians base everything on the Bible and the idea that this is "cyclical" is something that unbelivers have made up. And the sad part is that they are dooping people who claim to be Christians into believing that they must define things on the unbeliever's terms.
I hope you see the point I'm trying to make here, and it really does apply to any question or any topic on this website and if anyone reading this would like to challenge what I'm saying in any area, please do. I would love to continue to talk about and recieve comments on this entire idea/topic in general. Anyone, please leave posts - I am anxious to see what kind of responses this will get.
JB
JB said "For the Christian, he does not need "proof" or "science" or any sort of "evidence" from anyone. He need not concern himself with matters that are already laid out for him clearly in God's word. The non-believer, however, will NEVER understand this at all. They are defining everything on their OWN terms. Who decided that people need to have evidence or proof of something first in order to make it "true" or to agree with it? "Well it just makes sense." Yeah, but what defines something as "sensical" to an unbeliever? Whatever they want to make sense makes sense to them. See, they are defining everything on their own terms, and if that is true, then how can everyone be right on their own terms? They can't."
OK, first you say that true Christians don't need any sort of proof to be a Christian. Isn't the Bible itself supposed to be evidence that Christianity is the one true religion? Isn't that it why God divinely inspired its creaters to write it; to provide proof that Jesus was the son of God? And if the Bible is to be accepted at face value with no proof to back it up, what exactly is it that Christians are supposed to base their faith on?
The kind of blind faith that you are talking about is the type of thing that tends to lead people into holy wars and torture chambers. When you stop asking for reasons, (stop asking why, stop looking for proof) you become a willing pawn for any ambitious person with a charismatic smile and a selfish agenda.
As to what us un-believers believe; two plus two doesn't equal four because we want it to equal four. The sun doesn't rise in the east and set in the west because we like it that that way. For us, for something to be "sensical" it would actually have to make sense.
You say that we un-believers need to define things in our own terms. Well Duh! Everybody defines things in their own terms. That's what being an individual with a unique point of view is all about. What your real problem is, is that we refuse to define the world in your terms. We won't buy into your blind faith unless you can show us some reason why we should. We want answers. Is the Bible the inspired word of God? If so, then why does there seem to be contradictions in it? How could all of the unbelievable things that it reports have actually happened? Why would a supposedly loving and just God do the things that the Bible says he did and continues to do?
We arn't trying to make the world the way we want it to be. We're just trying to get a better understanding of the way it really is. We have come to the conclusion that just taking someone else's word for it (especially someone who had just barely crawled out of a cave over 2000 years ago) is not a good way to get a better understanding. But, hey, if you, or someone else can show us that we're wrong, prove to us that the Bible is right, I'm sure we'll listen.
(I just noticed I used the term "we" alot in this posting. I apologize if I have mis-stated or mis-represented anyone else's views. It was not my intension to put words into anyone's mouth or become an unofficial spokesperson. Its just that its 4:00 am and I'm too sleepy to go back and change it now.)
Deuteronomy 23:2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord.
Joseph and Mary could not have been married, otherwise Mary would not have been a virgin.
I just want to clarify what I was trying to say.
When Christians try to convince non-Christians of their faith they use the Bible as evidence, but non-Christians won't see that as evidence at all, simply because they don't believe that the Bible is God's inspired words.
(I wouldn't dare suggest that Christans look to anything else than the Bible for their "proof").
But JB does make a good point that Christians and non-Christians are never going to see eye to eye.
I think this will be my last post (unless someone is desperate for me to answer them), purely because I have said what I wanted to say:
Everyone has the right to choose what they will and won't believe. I have faith in the God found in the Bible, but alot of people (probably most) don't. And who am I to judge other people for their beliefs?
I hope you don't mind if I keep reading the posts though!
Joel B said: For any true Christian, their life and all that they think, believe and how they act should be based upon the Bible. How can a person expect to obey God if they reject the Word that He has given to them?
Are saying that a Christian should base their lives and thoughts on the entire bible? Tell me this - why are you not out stoning your disobedient children, or killing homosexuals or stoning those that worked on the Sabbath and/or stone those who worship other gods. Those are just some of god’s words so where is your obedience to them and why do you reject them? Can you and your cronies do us the favor and obey them for us as sure sign that you are a true Christian™ Otherwise, you’re an hypocrite.
You did a good job in responding to jb, tigg. I just want to add one thing: if we accept things on faith, why believe the Bible? Why not believe the Koran or the Hindu holy book? Your beliefs should be empiracally based or otherwise you can believe in anything. Most Christians believe in Christianity just because they were brought up in a Christian country. If they were brought up in Iran, they would probably be Muslims.
I'm glad that Joel can be tolerant of us atheists, but it seems that in a way he isn't, if he can entertain the belief that we're going to suffer an eternity in Hell just because we don't accept a certain belief on faith as if there is something virtuous in accepting things on faith.
Christians and non-Christian (unbelievers) will never see eye to eye. Well, no we won’t.
While some Christians live a quiet, passive life, others do not. As Sam Harris said in his book ‘The End of Faith,’ the moderates perpetuate the extremists. Extremists do not live and let live. They want absolute power in deciding our sex lives, our reproduction rights, our moral, ethical, and decency standards, our scientific studies, and our freedom of speech. And they want to use a 2,000 year-old book as their guide that was written by people who were Neolithic in thinking, infantile in reasoning, and intellectually bankrupted.
God is a place marker for the unexplained and it’s bloody not good enough. To contemplate god is to contemplate the next life and not this one. We do not need to hash out god. We need to hash out what value we can place on this life so we can stop killing each other over the next.
I am a bit disappointed, but also happy to see people being nice as well.
Blogger Steve: It's the religion, not the guy. Why are you trying to find a problem with a nice post?
Dano: Why the criticism? And if not criticism, are you in turn trying save Joel from his belief? Doesn't that make you similar to the Christian people who want to "save" you?
Jim: You have a point, but to change that tithing idealism, Christians would need to understand that the tithe concept is not to be used in that way. Education comes first, before change. My parents have recently been helping redecorate their church. Nothing NEEDED, like a roof. They think it would be better if they had stained glass windows, not plain ones. They want newer carpet, even though the older carpet is fine from what I can tell (I'm using a piece of it in my den right now). And my comment was, "Wow, wouldn't Jesus be proud that you are making your church more comfortable and prettier while children suffer on the streets of America." My point was taken, and they did not go back without saying something to their pastor about new ideas of where tithes should go.
stupid christian: sarcastic though the end was, cool save and good points.
LadySidhe: I truly agree with your post. I've seen too much rudeness on both sides of this debate...if you want to call it that.
Shannon: Good points to be made and I think those should be considered most of all. If anything Joel and anyone he sends to see this site would do good to remember this point, which was touched upon by Jim. If you help financially or promote the cause of a religious extremist, are you not just as guilty as he/she?
I wanted to thank Joel and welcome any like him to come and see the flipside, so to speak. At least he has not fallen into the trap of religious debate. However, I would love to see some political and ethical debate about the ideas presented by Jim and Shannon. I'd like to see ANY further information on this concept.
In the meantime, I wanted to say that I am considered Pagan and have had the unfortunate luck of meeting people that are very viciously overzealous for the cause of Atheism. I have been in a Freethought Society. I agreed with their ideas for the most part, and the idea that everyone had the freedom to choose and say as they wished until it hurt someone else. There are two people who are still members that have driven others off...even other atheists. They are just as zealotous and condescending to people who do not agree with their views as Fundamentalist Christians are. I guess you do not have to have a religion to be a fundamentalist.
And don't get me wrong, I've known a "hypo-pagan" a "hypo-wiccan" and MANY "hypo-christians" in my time.
So as you attack without provocation this person, be sure you aren't being hypocritcal yourself. I mean, how can a group be a driving political force if it is constantly and purposefully making enemies of each other as well as other groups who would be supportive? And let us be honest, we complain about the political power of the fundamentalists on here all the time. So why are they so very powerful? Part of the reason would be because the groups who are not Fundamentalist Christian can never seem to stick together.
(I saw the other posts, but I don't have enough time to mention them all)
Rachel
I pray for you and all in here that may be doubting God. I do not want to force anytthing on anyone its there choice to change or not, but I know God has a purpose for us all.
You'd think that with all the "prayers" being prayed on our behalf, that at least ONE of us would've gone back to the flock by now, per "God". Or maybe he's got bigger "fish to fry", you know, being CEO of the universe, and all. LMAO!!!
Oh yes, our god give purpose…some of us but not all of us, with piety or without, are going to suffer and die from cancer, car accidents, murder, hurricanes, tornados, earthquakes, starvation, mental illness, hippo charges, grizzly bear attacks, or snake bites.
What purpose does it serve a god for us to spend a measly 80 years being tested, suffering unduly, all the along being threatened with eternal human BBQ if we disagree with his statutes?
Your god is not a loving being; he is undeniably cruel. He’s random. He hits with out reason. It’s like he has no control. There is no way to make a violent death palatable but when it becomes a part of our purpose from a loving, knowing god it makes me feel queasy. He has the power to end suffering and to end cruelty yet he doesn’t. Your god sucks.
Purpose, my ass.
Let me get this straight.
If you pray and god's answer is NO, he still has answered your prayer but what you asked for was not his will. You wasted your time!
If you pray and god's answer is yes, because it was already his will, you still have wasted your time!
What is the point of prayer except to kiss his mighty ass? NO POINT AT ALL! The egotistical ass loves to have his ass licked? This is truly a deity worthy of mankind's worship!
A school yard bully who says that he will not beat you up if you give him your lunch money is way more kind than the christian mythological god!
Even if you don't agree with me or don't like me I'll still do what I think is right, just like you are doing what you think is right.
Hey Freeman!How was Cajun land?
Great to see your clear minded
comments muting the fundy myths of
despostic christiandom!!!!!
Mattfulfs2
Sure most of us do the ‘right’ thing. The only difference is according to you; you get to go to heaven whereas I don’t.
It doesn’t matter if my behavior mirrors yours because behavior isn’t what concerns your god. Only 100% blind loyalty matters to your god.
You can be hedonist, run amok, and be quite the asshole for your entire life but as long as you have one last breath left you can ask for forgiveness.
As one story goes, before Jeffery Dahmer died, he asked for forgiveness and accepted Jesus into his heart. I just hope for you sake the Mr. Dahmer doesn’t get to make his own lunch up there.
Why tolerance for religionists? Why civility? It makes no sense. Atheists are the ONLY theological group that has every right to despise another group. Has anyone evidence of ONE SINGLE Atheist ever burning a religionist at the stake for their beliefs? Do we start the wars? Do we suppress the science that gives ALL of us this short lifespan? Do we keep benefits of any kind from them, because it insults a senseless taboo morality of ours?
We need to throw away the idea that everyone has a right to these believes. Right ends where responsibility begins. All Atheists have a responsibility to stamp out ignorance wherever it festers, and it festers most in our species' primitive religions. I say, have as much tolerance for religionists in our species as you would cancer in your body. Come to think of it, religion has caused far more death and suffering than cancer.
A Christian posts a seemingly tolerant comment and we’re supposed to feel like there is hope for them to coexist in an enlightened society? I don’t think so. I won’t think so if I find myself on a deathbed from something curable from stem cell research (for example), just because they currently have the numbers. Don’t encourage the numbers by tolerating the ignorance.
Hi Kevin,
I understand what you're saying, and at one level I even agree with you. But, I'm going to respectfully disagree with you nonetheless. Here is why.
Simply put, intolerance of opposing views is never a winning strategy. I think history bears this out, particularly when you compare civilized arenas such as science with the stifling provincialism of religion or the oppression of totalitarian governments. In the former (science), everybody gets their say, provided they adhere to certain broad rules of decorum and play by reasonable rules put in place to ensure transparency and to mitigate bias. In the latter (religion), there is generally a culture of isolationism--i.e. building walls to thwart inquiry, and to keep out opposing views. (In fact, it's actually far worse many cases. Christians often disparage non-believers, propagating horrible caricatures that are rooted in nothing more than bigotry. Here is where our views are most closely aligned.)
I also look at it very pragmatically. If one had the goal of wiping out religion (which, incidentally, I think is impossible, even if it were wise), I think the best way to do it would be by opening up those stuffy churches and letting in some opposing views and some civil discussion. I probably hold this view partly for personal reasons. I abandoned Christianity at a very young age, essentially on my own, as a direct result of overhearing that a mutual friend did not believe in god. That mere suggestion spurred me to think things through on my own, and to reach my own conclusions. So, the brick silos that religions build around themselves are completely warranted--if you view religion as a "meme", it's essentially the only way they can survive (or so it seems to me).
But I do agree with you on another point; that illogical thinking should not be tolerated if it produces effects that are detrimental to society. My favorite example right now is the staunch opposition of the religious right to gay marriage. I see that as pure bigotry, and it is the unfortunate spawn of religion. Without the mask of religion, those who oppose extending the same rights and privileges to gay couples would have absolutely nowhere to hide. Their "argument" would be seen for what it is (bigotry), and I doubt that it would be able to stand for very long. But I am optimistic. I think that gay marriage will one day be seen as an obvious civil right, and it will be an embarrassment that it took so long (due mainly to religion) to see it as such, in much the same way that suffrage and the abolition of slavery took so very long to come to pass. In all these cases, religion was (and is) the institutional insanity most responsible for preventing social progress. In my humble opinion, that is (dismounting the soapbox).
Don't even get me started on science... :-)
Hey Kevin...
Tell us all how you REALLY feel, man! Get it off your chest!
Sure, be a total ass to anyone who doesn't hold the same view as you, Kevin (atheism?). Pull the ol' switcheroo on 'em, eh? Turn the tables, so to speak? That'll teach 'em.
Boy, I love this tough talk. Gets me horny... ;)
Sounds nice Joel. But wait a minute...if you believe that you're going to heaven and that nonChristians are going hell, how's that different from believing that you're better off than we are? It sounds like you still have "an us against them" religion.
well said. i think he was here to be passive agressive ..... oh well. christians are pompous assholes the lot of em.
muttmutt, If we are Just a bunch of jerks then why are you calling us names, All of us. I am a Christian, I do believe in Christ and God the Father almighty. And I pray for you with all my heart. Lord please help MuttMutt, and those who are also lost.
And also this site hasn't discouraged me one bit from my Faith. It has done quite the opposite So God works even where those that don't believe gather.
Oh, great Zeus, god of gods, we pray to you to please rescue our brother mattfulfs2 from the clutches of that blood cult he's entangled in. He thinks the god of Abraham is real! Oh, great Zeus, please help him, and help us to rid ourselves of such sanctimonious vermin while you're at it. Thank you, oh great god of gods, Zeus.
There. Now I'll report any strange happenings at this end if you agree to do the same. Deal?
"God works even where those that don't believe gather."
When will you christians learn to discern between God and christianity? As I've said before, some here believe in the existence of God, some debate it, some disbelieve. What we share here is a common disbelief in christianity. It's what brings us together. Personally, I feel surrounded by your monstrous religion. I live in the bible belt and I swear I've had people say things to me like, "Well, the Lord must have led those police officers down that alley, because that's right where the bad guys were" and, "the Lord bless you" and other christian statements. I've heard people "proclaim the name of Jesus among men," because Jesus said that he would proclaim your name among God and the angels if you did so, according to the gospels.
Yes I know that some don't believe in Christianity but do in a god but Believing in a God Doesn't Mean that it is the one true God. Someone could believe that a table lamp is god and think there right but they aren't.
Hey Matt, your god is the one true lamp :-)
That's another problem with christianity. On the one hand they will say that there is only one God, then when somebody who is not christian prays to that same God, those prayers are deemed ineffective by the christian church because that person is not following their beliefs as to how to pray. Meanwhile, christian prayers don't work anyway, and they never have. According to the gospels, one should receive ANYTHING prayed for in the name of Jesus, regardless, but christians conveniently ignore that passage or explain it away with some other part of the same book while denying that it contradicts itself.
Christianity is nonsense.
praying isn't just like a giant request box for something, It's about spending personal time with God. And I have never ever told a person that if there not Christian their prays don't work. They only don't work If you pray to an Idol, which isn't a God but something someone thinks is a God.
Hey, I pray to idols all the time (Hera, Herne, Loki, Batman, Bullwinkle, etc. etc.) and my prayers get answered all the time.
The point is that prayers are ineffective. Clearly. They always have been, and you people won't admit it. Here, we face such facts. If you don't like that, then leave.
I never said that you personally ever "told a person...their prayers don't work..." I said, "...they (christians) will say that..." and "those prayers are deemed ineffective by the...church." These statements are true, in such a case as the aforementioned example.
Try praying for God to feed the starving children of the world and then turn on the news to see if it happened...
Praying to a god is about as effective as consulting a magic 8-ball for solutions to life’s follies: Yes. Yes, in due time. My sources say no. Definitely not. You will have to wait. I have my doubts. Outlook so-so. Looks good to me! Who knows? Looking good! Probably. Are you kidding? Go for it! Don't bet on it. Forget about it.
If you asked your parents for everything when your a kid would you get it, No of course not because your parents know better and give you what you need not what you want all the time. This is a description of God and A follower except that God may let someone die they might serve a purpose that no one ever for saw ever after there death.
Dano wrote:
"He decided to get one of his female creations pregnant with a male child, mysteriously call that male child his only son, and then arrange to have the boy murdered as a sacrifice to himself."
Let me get this straight.
So God creates mankind. He calls the his sons and daughters.
Next thing, he creates sin (omnipotent and all, remember? Nothing happens without his consent)
Then he says: sin is a bad thing, something of the devil (whom he created himself also)
Then he goes and makes war against these so-called sinners, who carry out the thing that is ordered by something he delibberately created.
Then he says: I am all forgiving!
S he sends his only son, to the people he created, to get killed by them, so the people he created can be forgiven for the sins he delibaretly let us commit.
I'm confused.......
P.s.
If Jesus is the son of god, and we all his children, I am a son of God.
Therefore, I am Jesus?
Mattfulf, you've missed the point again. As I pointed out, christian prayer is ineffective, and always has been. How few, if any, have been answered? How many have been prayed?
If you don't like hearing such things here, then you may leave. If you wish to remain, please do so respectfully. We don't believe in christianity here, remember? You doctrines are nonsense to us. Your beliefs as to why prayers are unanswered mean nothing here. The fact of the matter is, christian prayer IS ineffective. If it were not so, we would have no need for medical technology, just "faith healing." Fortunately we see the need for such technology and have progressed despite the objections of the christian church.
What do you suppose will happen when humankind overcomes death and Christ STILL hasn't returned? Some believe that we may have the technology to expand a persons lifetime by thousands of years within the next twenty-five years! It's inevitable, I think, that humankind will conguer aging and dying. How long will the church hold on to its ancient book? It's already quite outdated.
According to the bible, a woman is not permitted to speak in church, she must wait until she is home and ask her husband if she has a question. Woman was "made for the man," not the other way around, and man was made in "Gods own image." Let's not forget that "Christ is the head of the man and man is the head of the woman!" Personally, I can more easily believe that the two would be "one in spirit," if God exists.
The bible becomes more and more outdated as time passes. I remember in the seventies hearing church leaders speak out against women's rights! They don't say anything now! Gee, I wonder why. Could it be because women have come so far? What next? Well, we'll see. If your "saviour" doesn't return soon, we'll have to throw all those bibles in the can! They won't fit into the modern world any more! I hope I live to see the day. That is one of the bibles major problems, btw, and there are many others.
Faolchu Airgid:
You cracked me up!!
We are all god's children, so I am the daughter of god. I guess I'm Jesussa!!!
mattfulfs2:
Guess what??? Your god IS an idol. He's not real. He's a figment of your imagination. Do you pray to the crucifix? An altar? A statue? A portrait? Etc., etc. Those are all idols. They are just the approved idols of xianity.
The only difference between your god and Greek/Roman gods, Egyptian gods, etc., is the fact that the catholics, who began xianity, were smart enough to realize folks would be more accepting and easier to brainwash if the god was human-like.
Your god didn't make us in his image.....Man made god in his!!!! duh!
mattfulfs2: "If you asked your parents for everything when your a kid would you get it, No of course not because your parents know better and give you what you need not what you want all the time. This is a description of God and A follower except that God may let someone die they might serve a purpose that no one ever for saw ever after there death."
Uh, god created his children knowing he would let some die on purpose for all eternity in painful suffering. Lets make the analogy then, that this would be like a parent knowing they had a genetic defect, and if they had children, the defect would cause their child to be an invalid, and incapable of functioning properly in society.
Then, the parent, knowingly, has the child anyway. The child is born, and incapable of going to the restroom on their own, but, going to the restroom is required in order to be socially acceptable in society. So, the parent, beats their child for eternity, because their child just can't seem to learn.
Matt, you really need to rethink your statements. Your god, placed humanity on this planet according to your bible, as sinful invalids, and the only hope isn't to prevent our acts, its to mitigate the already prescribed eternal punishment by asking for forgiveness because we were born. I can't picture a parent, looking at their child, and demanding their invalid child to admit they are "less" worthy in life, because of their condition, but, your god, requires his/her/its children, to admit, as non-perfect invalids, to being "less" than worthy in life, or in the afterlife in heaven. You must realize, your "god", created us as "unworthy", at this point, why would we need to ask forgiveness?
The bible teaches that Christ is an example for men to follow and that we should all become "as Christ,", yet leaves no example for a woman to follow in becoming a "daughter of God." Why not? This leaves what place for women in the scheme, and what effect does this have on the men? To make them arrogant and egocentric, thinking less of women?
Women are Goddesses, to me.
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