I'm a Christian
Hi,
I've come to this site off and on for the last few months to see what's being talked about and I really enjoy it. You see, I'm a Christian (as in, one that worships God and believes that Jesus is the only way to Heaven, although there is obviously more to it than that).
I can appreciate the reasons why so many people leave the Christian faith. Some of my friends & family have done so and have similar arguments that feature alot on this site, but I have investigated a few of them and have found inconclusive evidence either way.
To be honest, this post has no real point, I just wanted to let you know that I respect your decision to not worship God and that that doesn't make me a better person than you.
Warm regards,
Joel B
I've come to this site off and on for the last few months to see what's being talked about and I really enjoy it. You see, I'm a Christian (as in, one that worships God and believes that Jesus is the only way to Heaven, although there is obviously more to it than that).
I can appreciate the reasons why so many people leave the Christian faith. Some of my friends & family have done so and have similar arguments that feature alot on this site, but I have investigated a few of them and have found inconclusive evidence either way.
To be honest, this post has no real point, I just wanted to let you know that I respect your decision to not worship God and that that doesn't make me a better person than you.
Warm regards,
Joel B
Comments
Hey Joel! I want to worship God too. Who is or what is God? I would like to go to heaven when I die also. Let me see if I have this right now.
The force that created everything, including every aspect of our personalities, decided that there was a design flaw in some of us, and we were not performing like we were programmed to perform. We were not worshiping him like he thought he had programmed us to. You see the creator of everything needs to be worshiped. I know it sounds strange, but the creator of everything needs our worship!
He tried murdering a bunch of us, off and on. (Well, I guess you couldn't call it murder since he made us in the first place), or should I say he recalled a bunch of us every now and then, but eventually came up with a better plan. He decided to get one of his female creations pregnant with a male child, mysteriously call that male child his only son, and then arrange to have the boy murdered as a sacrifice to himself. (Some religions ascribe to the Idea that God and his only son were actually one and the same)
Strangely, this sacrifice of this special human, to God, made him happy. He needed a blood sacrifice real badly.
Now you might ask where he got that idea. Well, Some of his creations, ( mentioned earlier), had a design flaw whereas they were inventing Gods, and the having these Gods make mortal women pregnant, and then calling the offspring, sons and daughters, of those gods, so in a sense the creator of everything kind of stole the idea from some of his earlier, defective creations.
So now, all you have to do is believe this story, and you go to heaven. Right Joel?
God did sorta of give us an alternative to believing this story though. If you can't wrap your logical mind around the sacrifice story or if you live in a place where the story is not taught or if you lived before he came up with the idea, or if you live in a country where you will have your head cut off for even repeating the story, you can spend an eternity burning in a fiery hell. Right Joel?
Dan (Rationalist)
Thanks for the friendly post. It's a breath of fresh air, considering that we're usually screeched at
by the believing Christians who somehow end up at this site. I think you will find that most of us here have no problem whatsoever with those who hold religious beliefs. The problem comes when believers decide that we are somehow obliged to hold the same beliefs, usually backed by ugly threats. I think we can agree that such behavior benefits nobody. So, all the best to you. If you are happy in your beliefs, and are mature enough to accept that others can legitimately hold different views, then there is nothing at all to quarrel about.
In that sense, be thee blessed by whatever Divine forces may or may not be out there! ;)
reminding us that not all christians are closed-minded jerks!
AnonymouS is glad that joel wrote something better than the last christian's post. Anonymous in fact thanks joel.
Dano breaks out the sarcasm early on Joel. Dano goes on with his hostile, sarcastic, and patronizing arguments against joel and joel's belief in god and the bible. Dano knew that sarcasm was a tactic used on this website countless times, but he thought he'd put his own flavor to it.
Jim A decides to be nicer to Joel than to most christians he's encountered on this site. Jim lets Joel know that he doesnt like it when Christians verbally attack him and threaten him with god and fire. Jim finds joel to be a mature person and wishes that there were more christians like him.
Peace and Love makes his case against ex-christian hypocracy. Peace and love wants the free thinkers to only be resentful to christians when they feel attacked by them. You be your own judge of when you feel attacked. Joel was not resentful when he wrote his letter, even though he had to look at Messy Marvin pissing on a jesus fish while he wrote it.
Thurisaz wishes joel well.
Freedy thanks Joel for not being a close-minded jerk.
Jim disagree's with all who wish joel well. Jim is hardcore and won't be silent when joel and the rest like him come to this site to committ their hate crimes.
almost all of this sites responses to a christian are represented here
Missing Comments:
-someone to correct grammar and spelling
-anything from webmaster
-someone to give joel a link to some other site with "facts" that may or may not even be true
-someone to create a their own cool combination of cuss words towards fundies (also, the word "fundie" needs to be used about another 15 times)
Please pardon my ignorance but what is Divinity?
It was fun while it lasted, good luck with your faith.
Well, I guess we each see what we want to see, then. What *I* see here on a daily basis is numerous people affirming that everybody has the right to believe what they want. Look in almost any thread; it's there. Of course, what you will also see is lively and sometimes heated debate. While I feel no animosity toward believers simply for believing, I still 1) disagree with them, and will explain at length why that is the case, and 2) rebuke them if they chastise others for not sharing their beliefs.
And, by the way, I don't know what you mean by "believing in Divinity" either. I'm guessing that means you believe in some kind of deity. If so, that's fine with me and most of the others here, so long as you accept that many of us do not share your belief. Indeed, many come here specifically to shake off the last vestiges of such beliefs.
So, what is your point stupid?
promote churchianity.It's the radical(20%)who fund and run those who are part of the,...
"Religious Wrong"!!!!
yoor redundant.
a) Christians argue based on the Bible that they believe, because its God's inspired word, which starts a bit of a cycle (God proves Bible proves God etc , and
b) non-Christians use the Bible they don't believe to prove their points.
I have no insight into the experiences of others and I don't suggest for a moment that the Christian faith is based solely on experience, but for me, Christianity is a hope that I can rely on and a guide for how I should live.
Totally unrelated to this, I accept that Christians and the Church have done a lot of bad things, but I also believe that they have done a lot of good in this world.
Warm regards,
Joel B
About your comment: "Christians argue based on the Bible that they believe, because its God's inspired word, which starts a bit of a cycle".
What basis do you suppose Christians SHOULD argue from, if not the Bible? For any true Christian, their life and all that they think, believe and how they act should be based upon the Bible. How can a person expect to obey God if they reject the Word that He has given to them? Non-Christians base their lives around, well...whatever they want to. This is why, obviously, Chritians and Non-Christians disagree on so many things. How can they be expected to understand each other's belifs if they are viewing them in 2 totally different ways?!
Now obviously this sounds like "duh" but just hear me out. It's really a whole different aspect on beliefs than people are used to.
For the Christian, he does not need "proof" or "science" or any sort of "evidence" from anyone. He need not concern himself with matters that are already laid out for him clearly in God's word. The non-believer, however, will NEVER understand this at all. They are defining everything on their OWN terms. Who decided that people need to have evidence or proof of something first in order to make it "true" or to agree with it? "Well it just makes sense." Yeah, but what defines something as "sensical" to an unbeliever? Whatever they want to make sense makes sense to them. See, they are defining everything on their own terms, and if that is true, then how can everyone be right on their own terms? They can't. However, things are very different for the Christian. His life is completely defined by God's terms. It's relativley simple: Chritians base everything (their valeus, morals, conduct, beliefs - EVERYTHING) on God's Word. They don't need "proof" to make anything true or correct (again, who came up with the idea that we need proof to define truth? - the unbeliver did).
Anyways, sorry this is a rambling tangent, but it really is all connected. Real Christians base everything on the Bible and the idea that this is "cyclical" is something that unbelivers have made up. And the sad part is that they are dooping people who claim to be Christians into believing that they must define things on the unbeliever's terms.
I hope you see the point I'm trying to make here, and it really does apply to any question or any topic on this website and if anyone reading this would like to challenge what I'm saying in any area, please do. I would love to continue to talk about and recieve comments on this entire idea/topic in general. Anyone, please leave posts - I am anxious to see what kind of responses this will get.
JB
OK, first you say that true Christians don't need any sort of proof to be a Christian. Isn't the Bible itself supposed to be evidence that Christianity is the one true religion? Isn't that it why God divinely inspired its creaters to write it; to provide proof that Jesus was the son of God? And if the Bible is to be accepted at face value with no proof to back it up, what exactly is it that Christians are supposed to base their faith on?
The kind of blind faith that you are talking about is the type of thing that tends to lead people into holy wars and torture chambers. When you stop asking for reasons, (stop asking why, stop looking for proof) you become a willing pawn for any ambitious person with a charismatic smile and a selfish agenda.
As to what us un-believers believe; two plus two doesn't equal four because we want it to equal four. The sun doesn't rise in the east and set in the west because we like it that that way. For us, for something to be "sensical" it would actually have to make sense.
You say that we un-believers need to define things in our own terms. Well Duh! Everybody defines things in their own terms. That's what being an individual with a unique point of view is all about. What your real problem is, is that we refuse to define the world in your terms. We won't buy into your blind faith unless you can show us some reason why we should. We want answers. Is the Bible the inspired word of God? If so, then why does there seem to be contradictions in it? How could all of the unbelievable things that it reports have actually happened? Why would a supposedly loving and just God do the things that the Bible says he did and continues to do?
We arn't trying to make the world the way we want it to be. We're just trying to get a better understanding of the way it really is. We have come to the conclusion that just taking someone else's word for it (especially someone who had just barely crawled out of a cave over 2000 years ago) is not a good way to get a better understanding. But, hey, if you, or someone else can show us that we're wrong, prove to us that the Bible is right, I'm sure we'll listen.
(I just noticed I used the term "we" alot in this posting. I apologize if I have mis-stated or mis-represented anyone else's views. It was not my intension to put words into anyone's mouth or become an unofficial spokesperson. Its just that its 4:00 am and I'm too sleepy to go back and change it now.)
Joseph and Mary could not have been married, otherwise Mary would not have been a virgin.
When Christians try to convince non-Christians of their faith they use the Bible as evidence, but non-Christians won't see that as evidence at all, simply because they don't believe that the Bible is God's inspired words.
(I wouldn't dare suggest that Christans look to anything else than the Bible for their "proof").
But JB does make a good point that Christians and non-Christians are never going to see eye to eye.
I think this will be my last post (unless someone is desperate for me to answer them), purely because I have said what I wanted to say:
Everyone has the right to choose what they will and won't believe. I have faith in the God found in the Bible, but alot of people (probably most) don't. And who am I to judge other people for their beliefs?
I hope you don't mind if I keep reading the posts though!
I'm glad that Joel can be tolerant of us atheists, but it seems that in a way he isn't, if he can entertain the belief that we're going to suffer an eternity in Hell just because we don't accept a certain belief on faith as if there is something virtuous in accepting things on faith.
If you pray and god's answer is NO, he still has answered your prayer but what you asked for was not his will. You wasted your time!
If you pray and god's answer is yes, because it was already his will, you still have wasted your time!
What is the point of prayer except to kiss his mighty ass? NO POINT AT ALL! The egotistical ass loves to have his ass licked? This is truly a deity worthy of mankind's worship!
A school yard bully who says that he will not beat you up if you give him your lunch money is way more kind than the christian mythological god!
Great to see your clear minded
comments muting the fundy myths of
despostic christiandom!!!!!
I understand what you're saying, and at one level I even agree with you. But, I'm going to respectfully disagree with you nonetheless. Here is why.
Simply put, intolerance of opposing views is never a winning strategy. I think history bears this out, particularly when you compare civilized arenas such as science with the stifling provincialism of religion or the oppression of totalitarian governments. In the former (science), everybody gets their say, provided they adhere to certain broad rules of decorum and play by reasonable rules put in place to ensure transparency and to mitigate bias. In the latter (religion), there is generally a culture of isolationism--i.e. building walls to thwart inquiry, and to keep out opposing views. (In fact, it's actually far worse many cases. Christians often disparage non-believers, propagating horrible caricatures that are rooted in nothing more than bigotry. Here is where our views are most closely aligned.)
I also look at it very pragmatically. If one had the goal of wiping out religion (which, incidentally, I think is impossible, even if it were wise), I think the best way to do it would be by opening up those stuffy churches and letting in some opposing views and some civil discussion. I probably hold this view partly for personal reasons. I abandoned Christianity at a very young age, essentially on my own, as a direct result of overhearing that a mutual friend did not believe in god. That mere suggestion spurred me to think things through on my own, and to reach my own conclusions. So, the brick silos that religions build around themselves are completely warranted--if you view religion as a "meme", it's essentially the only way they can survive (or so it seems to me).
But I do agree with you on another point; that illogical thinking should not be tolerated if it produces effects that are detrimental to society. My favorite example right now is the staunch opposition of the religious right to gay marriage. I see that as pure bigotry, and it is the unfortunate spawn of religion. Without the mask of religion, those who oppose extending the same rights and privileges to gay couples would have absolutely nowhere to hide. Their "argument" would be seen for what it is (bigotry), and I doubt that it would be able to stand for very long. But I am optimistic. I think that gay marriage will one day be seen as an obvious civil right, and it will be an embarrassment that it took so long (due mainly to religion) to see it as such, in much the same way that suffrage and the abolition of slavery took so very long to come to pass. In all these cases, religion was (and is) the institutional insanity most responsible for preventing social progress. In my humble opinion, that is (dismounting the soapbox).
Don't even get me started on science... :-)
There. Now I'll report any strange happenings at this end if you agree to do the same. Deal?
When will you christians learn to discern between God and christianity? As I've said before, some here believe in the existence of God, some debate it, some disbelieve. What we share here is a common disbelief in christianity. It's what brings us together. Personally, I feel surrounded by your monstrous religion. I live in the bible belt and I swear I've had people say things to me like, "Well, the Lord must have led those police officers down that alley, because that's right where the bad guys were" and, "the Lord bless you" and other christian statements. I've heard people "proclaim the name of Jesus among men," because Jesus said that he would proclaim your name among God and the angels if you did so, according to the gospels.
Christianity is nonsense.
"He decided to get one of his female creations pregnant with a male child, mysteriously call that male child his only son, and then arrange to have the boy murdered as a sacrifice to himself."
Let me get this straight.
So God creates mankind. He calls the his sons and daughters.
Next thing, he creates sin (omnipotent and all, remember? Nothing happens without his consent)
Then he says: sin is a bad thing, something of the devil (whom he created himself also)
Then he goes and makes war against these so-called sinners, who carry out the thing that is ordered by something he delibberately created.
Then he says: I am all forgiving!
S he sends his only son, to the people he created, to get killed by them, so the people he created can be forgiven for the sins he delibaretly let us commit.
I'm confused.......
P.s.
If Jesus is the son of god, and we all his children, I am a son of God.
Therefore, I am Jesus?
If you don't like hearing such things here, then you may leave. If you wish to remain, please do so respectfully. We don't believe in christianity here, remember? You doctrines are nonsense to us. Your beliefs as to why prayers are unanswered mean nothing here. The fact of the matter is, christian prayer IS ineffective. If it were not so, we would have no need for medical technology, just "faith healing." Fortunately we see the need for such technology and have progressed despite the objections of the christian church.
What do you suppose will happen when humankind overcomes death and Christ STILL hasn't returned? Some believe that we may have the technology to expand a persons lifetime by thousands of years within the next twenty-five years! It's inevitable, I think, that humankind will conguer aging and dying. How long will the church hold on to its ancient book? It's already quite outdated.
According to the bible, a woman is not permitted to speak in church, she must wait until she is home and ask her husband if she has a question. Woman was "made for the man," not the other way around, and man was made in "Gods own image." Let's not forget that "Christ is the head of the man and man is the head of the woman!" Personally, I can more easily believe that the two would be "one in spirit," if God exists.
The bible becomes more and more outdated as time passes. I remember in the seventies hearing church leaders speak out against women's rights! They don't say anything now! Gee, I wonder why. Could it be because women have come so far? What next? Well, we'll see. If your "saviour" doesn't return soon, we'll have to throw all those bibles in the can! They won't fit into the modern world any more! I hope I live to see the day. That is one of the bibles major problems, btw, and there are many others.
You cracked me up!!
We are all god's children, so I am the daughter of god. I guess I'm Jesussa!!!
mattfulfs2:
Guess what??? Your god IS an idol. He's not real. He's a figment of your imagination. Do you pray to the crucifix? An altar? A statue? A portrait? Etc., etc. Those are all idols. They are just the approved idols of xianity.
The only difference between your god and Greek/Roman gods, Egyptian gods, etc., is the fact that the catholics, who began xianity, were smart enough to realize folks would be more accepting and easier to brainwash if the god was human-like.
Your god didn't make us in his image.....Man made god in his!!!! duh!
Uh, god created his children knowing he would let some die on purpose for all eternity in painful suffering. Lets make the analogy then, that this would be like a parent knowing they had a genetic defect, and if they had children, the defect would cause their child to be an invalid, and incapable of functioning properly in society.
Then, the parent, knowingly, has the child anyway. The child is born, and incapable of going to the restroom on their own, but, going to the restroom is required in order to be socially acceptable in society. So, the parent, beats their child for eternity, because their child just can't seem to learn.
Matt, you really need to rethink your statements. Your god, placed humanity on this planet according to your bible, as sinful invalids, and the only hope isn't to prevent our acts, its to mitigate the already prescribed eternal punishment by asking for forgiveness because we were born. I can't picture a parent, looking at their child, and demanding their invalid child to admit they are "less" worthy in life, because of their condition, but, your god, requires his/her/its children, to admit, as non-perfect invalids, to being "less" than worthy in life, or in the afterlife in heaven. You must realize, your "god", created us as "unworthy", at this point, why would we need to ask forgiveness?
Women are Goddesses, to me.