Say hello to yet another EX-christian

I was not abused by Catholic Priests, or by anyone in any way.

Nothing catastrophic made me "angry with God".

There was no single event that lead me to atheism; rather, it was a very gradual journey of examining the evidence, (or lack thereof) all the available facts, falsehoods & myths, actual cross-referencing history, from sources both within and hostile to christianity. Not to mention those that are purported to be "evidence" from an alleged "Jesus" contemporaries - most of which turn out to be hearsay, early christian forgeries, or conglomerations of mistranslations and misinterpretations.

It was the use of logic, science and reason that lead me to atheism, as it has many here.

After all, this is the default position.

I am not the one making the claim that there is a god, afterlife, ghosts or demons or anything supernatural. It is religionists that make the claim(s).

The burden of proof is on them.

Carl Sagan used to say, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof".

And instead, we are asked to take these wild claims of divinity that defy physical law on "faith".

But what exactly is "faith"?



" 'Faith', noun:

Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks, without knowledge, of things without parallel."

- Ambrose Bierce


Yup, that pretty much sums it up. Belief based in ignorance, not information. Religion is born of ignorance, hope and fear. Not information or enlightenment. It continues and festers through yet more ignorance, and more hope and a LOT more fear.

No supernatural all powerful all seeing "God" exists, standing above time and space, able to will the behavior of every subatomic particle that has ever existed or ever will.

The paradox of the christian tennant of free will & salvation are entirely null and void when considered alongside their own belief that their god is all-knowing, all-seeing, the author of a divine plan - and yet allows us to mess it up at will, committing "sins" that this god supposedly couldn't see coming - just like the angel Lucifer that supposedly turned against god in heaven.

What?!?! HUH!?! You can commit a sin in heaven and STILL be cast down into the pit?!?!!

So what's the point of getting to heaven in the first place?

Christians are very confused people, they don't even understand the paradoxes of their own creation.

Lucifer ("satan" or "the devil") had already turned against his creator by the Garden of Eden story, or else satan wouldn't have been tempting Eve to not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. (Because knowledge is a bad thing).

So satan's tempting, already evil, already having committed the sin of turning against god. And yet, we poor humans are the ones saddled with "original sin". Seems this perfect god doesn't get much right.

I believe with all conviction that atheism is the necessary and sole destination of any mind capable of truly critical examination of the evidence.

Of course christianity will not be abolished in our lifetimes, but if our species is to survive into the far future, we must eventually shed the monsters under all our beds. And that means shedding off impossible god fantasies as well.

It began long ago, there have always been a few people who "got it". Atheism and agnosticism is growing worldwide. The USA is sadly one of the few industrialized nations that's actually going backwards in this respect.

(Thanks, you freakin Republicans).

We must get louder, not sit in silence for fear of reprisals or "rocking the boat". Rock away people, rock away.

MOST sincerely,

atheist99

25 comments:

phoenixron said...

There are lots of republican atheists. It's just that the fanatics add god to their speeches for political points. It also isn't just Christianity that poses a threat to the world. The so-called "religion of peace", islam is a much more dangerous and violence based cult. And leaving them alone is not going to make them go away. They are truly bent on world domination, and atheists are, to islamists, the worst of the infidels deserving no better than that the sword of the prophet should sever our heads from the rest of us.

Ron

phoenixron said...

There are lots of republican atheists. It's just that the fanatics add god to their speeches for political points. It also isn't just Christianity that poses a threat to the world. The so-called "religion of peace", islam is a much more dangerous and violence based cult. And leaving them alone is not going to make them go away. They are truly bent on world domination, and atheists are, to islamists, the worst of the infidels deserving no better than that the sword of the prophet should sever our heads from the rest of us.

Ron

Anonymous said...

Yes my friend in truth, you are so correct! Religions work until they are questioned, then they fall apart, because a hoax cannot not stand up for itsself when being analyzed.

The god story about Satan a fallen angel, yet man was suppose to rise above Satan, never having seen or experienced a Heaven or death, yet man is suppose to pay for his sins because of Lucifer was allowed to dwell on the Earth to corrupt man?, What was it that pissed Satan off in Heaven? no more virgins?, if Heaven is perfect, how can corruption begin in the first place, and what is to stop more Lucifers from rebelling again in Heaven later and here we all go again, and then, we've got to wait another 4000 years before another jesus appears to save all humanity...lol

Religions and beliefs fall apart when questioned.

If jesus was perfect? why did god seed an imperfect being? A begotten child born in SIN, of the wicked sin filled Earth?

I tell you the reason the bible was written is because the people back then were so poor, we cannot even imagine, and to give them on the death bed a glimmer of hope, a useless pretence that they were going to a place better than they were at, why would it matter about streets of gold, and emeralds and jewels, because that is everyone's dream to lay down in a bed of diamonds and gemstones and gold and silver, to have untold riches beyond their wildest dreams.

What is the most unbelievable to me is that, we still have people today that fall for the hereafter dream and promise that was made up to comfort the dieing and downtrodden 2000 years ago.

And we still have people in Africa living in squaller conditions, while we in America brag on our all Loving god, and attend our multimillion dollar churches with the grandeur of a Roman King, why don't these churches help the people starving in Africa? instead of collecting multimillions so the preacher can play golf all week and ride around in a Mercedes Bens. Why do people have to have a grand cathedral to worship their invisible god, with all the stained glass windows and golden effiges, is this what a god wants?

Is it not better to give than receive?

It would be far better to worship an all loving god in a lean-to with nothing to brag about and share the wealth with the poor around the world and I'm not talking about sending tons of oatmeal and uncooked wheat and dropping it out of a plane with religious pamphlets.

If you're going to brag about how wonderful your all loving god is and yet you give all your money to the preacher so that he can tell you how wondeful you are.

Is this totally what religion is all about? Religions are not about reality. Religions are to deceive and betray the innocent unsuspecting victim and to keep them dumbed down and beaten down to subversion, why so many people will not allow themselves to see this is well beyond me.

Anonymous said...

Great to see a post thats about
the hypocrasy of doctrine ,rather than the leadership!
What about rewards in heaven?
This would mean social classes in
paradise? What kind of utopia is that?!!!!We could go on and on!

Anonymous said...

Atheist 99

How do we rock the boat? If we insult the religious, they think we are just bitter. If we proselytize, we are no better than they are.

Is there something we can do that is civilized and effective?

Just wondering,

Lorena

Anonymous said...

Atheist99: "Atheism and agnosticism is growing worldwide. The USA is sadly one of the few industrialized nations that's actually going backwards in this respect. (Thanks, you freakin Republicans)."

I wasn't aware that the U.S. has always had a republican president, to stifle the Atheist movement since the establishment of this nation. Perhaps, I should go re-read my middle school history book to make sure I didn't overlook something.

The Atheist movement isn't a political statement, its a philosophical statement. There are a wide variety of Atheists who span the political spectrum, from raging left to raging right.

The common goal of many Atheists is to keep god out of politics. Unfortunately, not any one political party is going to make that guarantee on a voting platform.

Senator Ernest F. Hollings of South Carolina, led the charge for conservative Southern Democrats to establish school prayer. He argued that the court rulings of the 1960s banning school prayer were a misinterpretation of the Constitution, necessitating an amendment to neutralize what he and other conservatives saw as a hostile government policy toward religion.

All U.S. presidents had/have a religious history, with the exception of three; Andrew Johnson, Ulysses Grant, and Rutherford Hayes. Atheism hasn't grown in the U.S. because of politicians though, a democracy allows atheists to congregate, just like any other organization. Atheism hasn't grown, because the U.S. was founded by pilgrims who were English religious separatists, who wanted to practice their own style of religion, as the Reformation wasn't conclusive enough.

Since the beginning of the settlement of the U.S. soil (known today), the pilgrims' religious views were established in common law, education, and every facet imaginable in society, to include language specific to their religious worship.

Atheism, has to compete with a religious tradition, that goes back to the very roots of the nations' history. To deprogram an entire nation, who was settled by religious fanatics, doesn't seem to be an easy task, especially when politicians (both parties potentially) support faith based initiatives, which keep the religious movements alive. Religious denominations, in the U.S. are economically considered a form of micro-socialism, working within a democracy. Thus, religions are providing economic support to their followers. Its hard to compete, with tradition, and religions who push a social welfare system which takes care of basic living needs.

Its not the logic that keeps religion going, its what people can benefit from the religion that keeps them coming back - its belief based on reward. Politicians, support religious foundations and their right to take tax cuts, etc., because the U.S. can't "deny" or "isolate" any one religious group and remove them from society, or that would be unconstitutional. In order for Atheism to take hold in the U.S., it has to compete with religious denominations who are financially supporting a community.

So, if anyone knows of a way for the Atheist movement, to economically compete with the federally supported "faith based initiatives", then, it would appear that this is where the greatest effort should be made. Trying to pick out a political candidate, based solely on party lines, to pole vault Atheism into a growing philosophy in the U.S., is "not" the way ahead. Picking a candidate, based on their previous voting history is a better method, however, those who actually take the time to pick the right candidate for the job, must compete with the ignorance of the masses, who typically vote blindly, and with party lines, which many times can be detrimental to their own values.

Anyway, good to see you Atheist99, perhaps in the upcoming years, we can see a growing number of Atheists joining the crowd in the U.S., and hopefully, the religious fanatics don't leave the U.S., and start forming religious groups abroad to make up for lost memberships like they currently do with taxpayer money. That would just be moving the problem in a circle around the globe.

Anonymous said...

atheist 99,

Like you, it was a rational conclusion that I came to as an adult, after a thorough brainwashing in my childhood. I now regard it as fortunate that my family really didn't fit in socially with the churches that we attended, although at the time it wasn't easy.

What I find interesting now is that Christians will invariably insist that my rational belief system is the result of anger with god, my parents, or whatever.

It's ironic that Christianity isn't something that you're allowed to make rational decisions about.

Steve

Anonymous said...

atheist+: "I wasn't aware that the U.S. has always had a republican president, to stifle the Atheist movement since the establishment of this nation. Perhaps, I should go re-read my middle school history book to make sure I didn't overlook something."

It is obvious that atheist99 was alluding to current events, i.e., the way right wing politicians are pandering to religious morons, and winning elections doing so.

Anonymous said...

Steve: "It is obvious that atheist99 was alluding to current events, i.e., the way right wing politicians are pandering to religious morons, and winning elections doing so."

I agree, but right wing politicians, aren't inclusive of all Republican politicians, nor do all people who happen to vote for a Republican candidate, in any given year, support right wing politics.

"People who define themselves as liberal Republicans or conservative Democrats essentially support the same policy positions on major issues."
http://www.independentnation.org/moderate_majority.htm

However, when a politician wants to shift their policy to one end of the extreme or the other, they will vie for support by seeking groups who will support their views. Republican/Democrat Politicians, once elected into office, can swing from a centrist position to an extreme position any given day of the week, depending on any given crisis.

When shifting occurs, either party's political leader will pander to "any" group that will support their political objectives. There are no guarantees that a left wing politician will never pander to a religious sector, or a right wing politician will never pander to a special interest group.

Placing an entire group of people, as equals because the fall on one end of a spectrum, just doesn't seem fair. It would be like saying a Deist is the same as a Christian Fundamentalist, because they fall on the right side of the belief scale. Or, that an Agnostic and Atheist had exactly the same philosophy, because they fall on the left side of the belief scale. However, I do agree, that currently, there are specific politicians who are pandering to the religious sector, in order to get support, its business as usual. In order for Atheism to move forward, its going to have to employ a strategy that can withstand either extreme side of the political spectrum in any given year.

Anonymous said...

What is faith? Faith is no more than a hope it's true concept. Christians are very gullible people, they would rather hope then face a reality of logic.

Anonymous said...

Atheist99: "There was no single event that lead me to atheism; rather, it was a very gradual journey of examining the evidence, (or lack thereof) all the available facts, falsehoods & myths, actual cross-referencing history, from sources both within and hostile to christianity."

Hello, and welcome. Glad to see you were able to slowly pull away from religious teachings, and without too much turmoil in your life. Like you, research and information allowed me to pull away over time, the Internet has been of tremendous value. This site, has been great in allowing me to find intellectual freedom to talk on topics regarding religion and other issues that arise from religion.

Your view on "faith", is spot on. If only we can create laws to establish ignorance as illegal contraband. Then, we could go after religious leaders, for trafficking in ignorance. Well, hope to see you on the boards, your knowledge can help others break the clasp that religious ignorance still has on many out there. Take care...

webmdave said...

MQ is a troll.

All posts deleted.

Anonymous said...

Hi, it's me again, "atheist99",
but I've since registered on the site's forum section as
"Friendly neighborhood athesit"
and my name's Greg.

Thanks to each of you who took the time to respond!

Of course I realize that the democrat party has within it some very religious people, but for whatever reason they more often than not seem to have the self-dicipline to put the country first.
In fact many have struck me as going out of their way to downplay their religious beliefs when trying to get elected.

Perhaps this is best explained by the observation that today (yes, moreso this current political climate in the U.S - for about 20 years or so) the republican party is catering almost exclusively to white conservatives who are almost exclusively christian. The democrats are trying to appeal to everyone else, while desperately trying not to alienate religious blacks, hispanics and anyone else who might vote for them.
And that's the problem.

Rebublicans are currently lead by an ensemble of organized, agenda driven people who have been focusing their efforts on doing exactly that for a couple decades now. The stated goals of these people scare the hell out of me, and that a majority of voters supported this administration TWICE leaves me terrified for the future of my nation.

Something the modern day republican party does NOT seem to understand and likely never will is that freedom of religion MUST also include freedom FROM religion, at least in keeping with the "excessive entanglement" wording. (And the use of my taxpayer dollars to support religious programs).

Another favorite quote of mine is "there can be no freedom without the freedom to dissent".

Anywho - see you on the forums!
-Greg

Anonymous said...

Hello, to yet another ex-christian.
;)

Anonymous said...

atheist99

You and every other atheist that have ever lived,have been given all the necessary evidence a person needs for believing in God!

"Its called your Conscience"

Or do you deny that you have one?

But for now! Forget about me,or indeed anyone trying to prove to you that there is evidence about "Did Jesus really exist"?

I know i would be wasting my time trying to talk to you about Christ.so i wont.(pearls before swine,etc")

You seem to know enough about the bible,maybe you might know enough about the bible to know about those verses in the book of (Romans 2:12-16)?

In these few verses,paul describes two groups of people.(Those who have been in a position to have heard the law(the jewish commandments,and the ceremonial laws) And of course,later on,those people who had heard the gospel message.

All the above will be judged by how they Believed or didnt believe in the offer of salvation.And by how the believers who trusted in the OT laws revealed to them.

But for those people who have never heard of the OT law.or the NT gospel.(They will be judged according to their own consciences)

I realise,that you might not even be bothered to read this far? But if you are interested.Look at the 15th verse.Particualry these few words

Quote..."Which shew the work of the law writen in their hearts,their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or excusing one another"... Unquote.

Now be honest,You must have done/thought of doing at least one of these two things that are spoken of in this (15th verse)- Perhaps more than once in your life?

Personally,i have these thoughts every day of my life.(please,before you think i go round like a shaking worried wreak) I dont.Everyones conscience-If its clear? -leaves a person at peace with himself and with the world.

All christian's i'm sure,will readily admit that these lines of pauls "accusing others!or excusing others" work in us by convicting us in everything that we do,think!

So the atheist isnt any different?

These scriptures in our discusion,are just one of those things named by the Apostle as being "Invisible" (ROM 1:20)

Notice in (v 20) How it says that these "invisible things are clearly seen"?

Again! Everytime our conscience convicts us,we feel it,or in the words of the apostle-We See it at Work in our Hearts and Minds.

But let me say thisto those who are concerned about all those people who have never heard of the gospel,or the law of moses!

According to scripture.Those people who have'nt even heard the gospel,or known anything about the Jewish Law.They will be judged by their consciences.They will be punished lesser,than those people who claim to be christians-But are not genuine christians- or Jewish(and have read all about the law,or have heard the Gospel yet rejected both)

The bible is very clear on this.

Anonymous said...

Pearl before swine,..wow!,..why are you here?....You are in disobedience to your own conviction!
Why aren't you out witnessing to uncircumsized Phillistines?
Conscience? I have four young children & they all have common-sense,..(evolutionary knowledge of
right and wrong)

Anonymous said...

pault: "...all the necessary evidence a person needs for believing in God!

"Its called your Conscience"

Or do you deny that you have one?"

Well, some christian apologists do, as in J.P.Holding of Tektonics.org, who claims that conscience is the "invention" of modern Western introspection, and that in 99% of the world in history, "conscience" as we know it did not exist.
"In particular, honor and shame rather than innocence and guilt are the issue: we do not think in terms of Jiminy Crickets in our heads, but rather base values on the group as a whole."

So we have different values and 'laws' in different cultures.

It's definitely an interesting topic, but personally I disagree with him since I think honour/shame societies are designed to repress our conscience for social engineering purposes.
So I won't disagree with you about whether we have a conscience or not, just where it comes from and what it's purpose is. Although you can see how easily your statement is challenged, even by other christians.

Anyway;
are you saying there is a way to get in to heaven without knowing of Jesus?
That we can just follow our conscience?

Then why the necessity to be a christian at all?

Is Paul then contradicting Jesus order to his disciples to go into all the world and preach? ...which surely must be in order to 'save' them, right?

Romans may be "quite clear on this", but it also seems quite clear on the opposite as well, and 'Paul' keeps switching back and forth, trying to cover all bases at once yet mixing himself up to the point of nonsense:
Romans 10:13
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent?"

Why would they need to be sent, to evangelise, if people could just be saved by their own conscience?

John 14:6
"Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me."

Acts 4:12
"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."
(except "conscience"?)

Even if, as you say, those who have not heard will be judged by their own conscience and are therefore condemned, because:

Romans 3:10
"There is none righteous, not even one; 11 there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; 12 all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one."
(WTF? this is just wrong, but anyway...)

The punishment still ends up being elitist towards those buggers who were lucky enough to have actually heard.
- ie, it is still an unfair, unloving and unmerciful thing for bible-god to condemn those who haven't even had the chance offered to them to repent - because they haven't heard the 'good news' about Jesus.

No missionary got to them in time, so they died in ignorance of there even being a way out of their default state - or that they even needed one - so they go straight to hell.
Albeit some kind of lesser hell you say?
What, like an eternity of mild uncomfortability?
WTF???

The bible is quite confused on this.

Anonymous said...

Yes, seriously "pault", don't waste your time.
People who talk like you make my skin crawl.

Why not lead some lost souls to Zeus or to Ra?
Why not Baal or Odin?
Hercules could use a playmate.
You imaginary man in the sky is no different from any of them, and yet you think as all the long dead worshipers of those now forgotten "gods" did that YOU alone have the one true path.
*shudder*.

Oh, and as for that tired and long-since debunked horseshit about conscience being evidence of a god...

Pretty much what Freedy said.
"Conscience" is nothing more than our awareness, as social creatures evolved from social primates, of what is and what is not conduscive to fitting in and functioning within a social heirarchy.
In other words, we have base instincts and learn from there what will make us happy in the culture we choose or grow up in.

Cannibalism is "good" in some cultures.
Having sex with a 13 year old girl is "good" in some cultures.
Chopping off the clitoris and labia minora of girls even younger than that is "good" in some cultures.

"Right and wrong" are relative things from culture to culture, person to person, and the entire concept is a human creation in the first place.

If we were to project our concepts of "right and wrong", "good and evil" onto the animal kingdom, (and we DO) we might call it wrong for a mother to kill one of her offspring so that the surviving one(s) might have a better chance of reaching adulthood.

Consider this: a lion and an antelope are out doing their thing on a nice sunny African day, the antelope is grazing on succulent grasses thinking "Thank you God for this wonderful grass to eat so that I might produce milk for my calf". Meanwhile, the lion spots the antelope and thinks "Thank you God for this opportunity to use the hunting skills you gave me to kill this antelope, and feed upon it's flesh, so that I may feed my young".

Now... these two "souls" are certainly NOT praying to the same all-knowing, all-powerful, all-benevlent God, now are they?
One of them is about to have a good day, and one a very very bad day.

It's like the pro athelets we all have to put up with; they do good, and at the podium with microphones in their faces they point stupidly at the sky, kiss their necklace and point up like "I got your back too Jesus"! But if they screw up and lose the game or perform badly, you never see them saying
"F__K YOU JESUS", ripping their necklaces off and tossing them in the trash, or ever their pocket.
You never see them point at the sky as if to say "Yeah, where were you THEN, beeyotch?!?
As usual, god gets the credit, but never the blame.

As yourself how rational god belief is, if you can be an honest skeptic with yourself, you WILL come to the conclusion that it's pretty freakin silly.
Ranking right up there with Santa Claus, not opening umbrellas in the house, walking under ladders, throwing spilled salt over one's shoulder, not stepping on a crack for fear of maternal spinal trauma, etc etc.

But, as you said, no amount of logic or reason can help you as a believer, you're far about all that now! You've been "saved", you "see the light", and we poor unenlightened souls are just confused, in denial or lost or somehow corrupted by Satan.
Hey bro, whatever gets you through the day. But, um, wrong on all counts.

And hey, you don't see me trying to talk sense to all the myriad christian babbleboards out there do you?? So why troll around here?
Wouldn't you be happier preaching to the choir, as it were?

Oh yeah, I forgot.
It's their holy commission as a soldier of christ to do battle with we lost heathens and lead us to Jesus.

Quick imitation of evangelicism at it's finest:

"I have this wonderful good news to share! Please let me share it with you!" (smiling).

no thanks.

"But I really, really want to share it with you, it's so important and it will make you complete and happy!!"

no thank you, I said.

"Listen you, you really ought to share in this good news as I intent to lay it out for you, because if you don't, you won't be happy".

I'm plenty happy, thanks. Leave me alone.

"If you reject this good news after I've tried nicely to share it with you, it's an offense to God, and you'll remain unsaved, unprotected from Satan, and he'll devour your soul!! You'll rot in the pit of hell for all eternity, forever and EVER AND EVER!!!!!
AAAAUUUUUUUAAAAAAGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!"

Um, you're not making it more appealing.

I call you a fool, because that's what you are, a person who has been fooled.
But as the old addage goes,
who is more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him?

I reject all notions of religion or gods or demons as well as superstition - and that is based on facts and logic and reason, and not one bit on desire or faith.
It's not a guess, it's not an opinion, it's the LACK of such a guess or opinion or belief.
Like I've said before, it's the default position, and nothing, I MEAN NOTHING throughout all recorded human history that withstands any serious scrutiny gives me cause to change from that default positon of atheism on claims of divinity or demons.

'Nuff said. -Greg the FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD ATHEIST.

Anonymous said...

Greg!

So it's a No then? :-)

You dont believe you have a conscience?

Thats fine!

But i'm sure that you already know a bit about the bible.And that You are only agreeing with the teaching of the bible on this subject!...by your denying that you have such a thing called as a conscience.

But the problem is still there? who should we believe?

Should we believe you,or should we believe the Apostles of Christ,and throw mockery upon their integrity? If we disagree with what those founders of the church on earth are wrong.Then that would mean every christian down the ages of the christian church,are also wrong! (now? do we believe you or do we believe all those greats of the past?)

However for those ex'christians- Who dont know what the bible says- About wether we have such a thing as a conscience?

The Bible is full of references of the word conscience.(i realise that most people on this board would have switched of by now!And probably clicked over.

In a way i dont blame you one bit.I would do the same if i was still living in that darkness which i call my younger days)

I used to be a really baddy at one time so i'm not a stranger to the art of atheisim.

In fact years and years ago.I was so bad,that "I'm sure even the demons ran away from my company" I'm sure that at times i must have even taught them a sin or two?

The bible rightly says that those people who once up on a time claimed their faith in Christ,only to reject him in the end "As having their Conscience...SEARED"

Please forgive me if i just include a couple of verses that speaks of the condition of my heart and mind,before i became a christian.And its these two biblical Quotes.

(1 THESS 4:1) "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly,that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith,giving heed to seducing spirits,and doctrines of devils" (theres my old friends the devils again!)

(v 2) "Speaking lies in hypocrisy;having their conscience seared with a hot iron"..unquote.

Its no coincidence that the mention of their conscience being seared in this second verse.Because the first verse tells us why their conscience was seared!

"They departed from the faith".

This is the only reward for those who will carry on listening to flattering words spoken to them by "seducing spirits" (second verse)

continued..

webmdave said...

Pault, you assume way too much.

Just because people no longer believe in the myths promulgated by your holy book, it doesn't mean they are instantly trasnformed into unrestrained beasts filled with nothing but murderous wanton lust. The whole idea is silly.

However, if that's the way you view yourself, that without the restraints of your cultic beliefs you'd go on a rampage or something, well, that is a shame.

I wonder though, what are the horrific sins you committed during your demon teaching days? And do you really believe those terrible crimes you commited would justify an enternal imprisonment in God's everlasting torture chamber of divine retribution?

I just want to see if you think the punishment should fit the crime, or if you think getting drunk and masturbating as a young person is something that should result in being eternally consumed by hellfire?

Greg-FNA said...

pault - you seem to be reading words in my post that aren't there.

Did I EVER say that I denied I had a conscience?? No.
I attribute it to entirely different things than you do.

Where you wrote:
"Should we believe you,or should we believe the Apostles of Christ,and throw mockery upon their integrity? If we disagree with what those founders of the church on earth are wrong.Then that would mean every christian down the ages of the christian church,are also wrong! (now? do we believe you or do we believe all those greats of the past?)"

Naw, your language isn't prejudicial and assumptive, not one bit! [/sarcasm].
Yes, every christian who ever lived or lives now is WRONG.
Just like every Zeus worshiper,
follower of Baal, Ram Odin, Mythra, etc etc was wrong.
The stars are not spirits of dead kings watching over us either.
They are not sparks from Thor's hammer.

If you can (and I KNOW you can't)
stretch your perceptions of how the world was back to the very unenlightened age which gave rise to all these various gods and demons, you will realize that religion has always sought to explain the unexplained, and apply a mental salve against the fear of death which we all have.

Religion only works on two fronts:
HOPE AND FEAR. Sprinkle in enough ignorance and gullibility, and voila! You'll believe anything, so long as it's apparently plausible (to the uninformed) and comforting while at the same time threatening.

Christian greats indeed.
You mean like Hitler? Cortez?
Wanna name any muslim greats for us?

And then we get this jewel of condescention from you:
"In a way i dont blame you one bit.I would do the same if i was still living in that darkness which i call my younger days)"

First of all, I don't really care how old a person is, it is only the very young entrusted to and trusting in their parents who are not responsible for their views on such things - they are thrust upon the young. I was born into belief, born into italian deep rooted beliefs. I was innundated with it from all the people I loved the most. They truly believed and wanted the best for me which included their belief system.
I don't "blame" them because they did not conspire to brainwash me anymore than true believers of ANY of the mixed bag of religions out there conspire to raise their children in only that one faith.

But a person grows up.
SOME of us, repeat, some - not including people like yourself - can grow out of the confines of thought imposed by that early mental conditioning. And if one can do that, there is a chance he or she will question matters of faith, and arrive at the same conclusions so many of us have.
It just doesn't pass the sniff test.

Fortunately for humankind, the resources are there today that were NOT there in the distant past to actually understand the natural phenomena and scientific truth behind so many things once explained only by religious nonsense. (i.e. Magic).

So go right ahead and blame me for being an atheist after having once believed as a young person.
I DO! And with utter delight and glee.

I've had discussions with my own devout father about all this, where he's said "Are so willing to bet eternity that you're right"?
The answer is YES!!! Because I can't bet the crown of England either. It was never mine to bet.
How certain am I that I'm right?
I'd say 100%, but suffice to say that I'm certain enough to live myself free of ANY religious doctrine or adhearence to ANY rules or guidelines, without the slightest tinge of guilt, regret, or doubt. None.

And then I suppose you'd accuse me of being immoral or somehow a bad person, freed from god I can onoly fall into the influence of the other god you believe in; Satan.
Did you know you and all other christians are polytheists?
You don't believe in ONE god, you believe in at least TWO!!
A greater god of good, and a lesser god of evil. (god of war, bad things, lust, death, disease, suffering, temptation, etc etc).
Oh you don't have to worship Satan, not at all - just recognize his existence and his powers as described in your own religion - and congradulations, you're a polytheist.

Then you continue to pontificate,
and then quote scripture to me.
Again, don't waste your time or mine. A simple response to your quote:
"Please forgive me if i just include a couple of verses"

no.

I now do the same thing with you
(you leave me no choice really)
that I do when the suit wearing evangelicals come to my door with bible in hand.
I say a stern "No". (not "no thank you" anymore, the only thanks I have is at their departure)
and then I close the door.

pault, I'm not going to waste much more of my time explaining myself to you or feeling like I have to respond to your "input" here.
My advice to you, as friednly as possible, is to drop it here, because I GUARANTEE you nothing good will come of trying to convince me of your god or any others.
Even Jesus would tell you to shut up at this point. You've made your case, made your pleas, and even hinted at some godly threats.
And guess what? It's still a no.
[closes door]. -Greg FNA

Jim Arvo said...

Hi Pault,

I see you are still posting here. I can't quite figure out why, but I give you points for perseverance.

You said quite a bit that would be fun to respond to, but I'll focus on one little thing that you said: "You and every other atheist that have ever lived, have been given all the necessary evidence a person needs for believing in God!...'Its called your Conscience'..."

Now, rather than dive into debating you on this, I'm going to try something new (if you're willing). Rather than me attacking a straw man (which I assiduously avoid, if possible), could you please first spell out your reasoning? That is, you claim that the existence of a conscience is evidence of god. Right? Well, I don't follow. Please tell me how you get from "conscience" to "god". I hope you'll agree simply calling something evidence does not make it evidence. As I've said before, if I believed that the jar of peanut butter in my cupboard is evidence of life on Pluto, that wouldn't mean a thing unless or until I demonstrated how the two were connected; in particular, why one made the other more likely. Do you agree?

If you are willing to spell out your reasoning, I'd be 1) quite interested in hearing what you have to say, and 2) quite likely to engage you in further discussion on the matter. (Wow, isn't that enticing?) What say you?

jimearl said...

Where are you, Pault? Jim Arvo asked you to explain something and we are awaiting your answer.... Not really. I could care less about your answers or anything else you might have to say. Bug off, pleeeaaaasssse.

Liberty Justice said...

I have traveled a very similar path, although even deeper conviction for atheism has been instilled after numerous anecdotal encounters with lying, cheating, adulterous "christians" not the least of whom was once my wife. Add to that the ignorance of Irish catholics and protests killing one another over interpretations. Add to that eons of senseless murdering between Muslims/Jews aka Arabs/Israelis. What further real evidence is needed to Plainly Observe that religion -- waring over who is on God's side and who is God's Really Mostest Bestest Chosen -- is the root cause of the most barbarous of all human behavior? There is no philosophy of atheism, no apologetics, no psychology required to make this simple, incontrovertible, empirical OBSERVATION.

Anonymous said...

My heart breaks for all of you. So if you've come to your atheistic conclusiond based on science may I ask what this scientific eveidence is that led you to this point? Hmmm....and and for some thing to be scientifically proven it has to be repeatable by the very defintion of scientific study...the fact that Geerge Washington was the 1st US president isn't repeatable, but I"m guessing you believe that he was? And why...b/c it's proven HISOTICALLY that Washington was our 1st president....well, what about all the hisotrical eveidence that proves my God's existence and intervention? And by the way, I have been abused by Christians and leaders in ministries, and yet I've still held on to my faith...not that I'm boasting, b/c God has been my strength through EVERYTHING! I can boast of nothing but my weaknesses in which He has proven Himself...in me, just a mere pathetic girl.Oh, and by the way, thank you for fueling the fire that ignites my faith in Him. Your comments have only stirred my heart to serve Him more sacrificially and whole-heartedly. And you've made so many comments that have hinted at an atheistic revolution in our country and how Christians and right-wings only get in your way, but I must infrom you that any Chrsitain who reads your comments will only be inspired to fight against what you're amaing at...so thank you for opening a door for another opportunity leading to more unity in the body of Christ, b'c trust me, many of His children will be reading these words you've posted and their hearts will be stirred....no goging back now. If this makes no sense to you, that's okay w/ me, but I've said my part.

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