I'm on this journey and need some words of wisdom
from Lori
I'm currently trying to find out what is the truth in this world and am having a hard time dealing with the splitting of myself.
On one hand I know what I have been taught, but on the other hand I have so many questions that are unanswered, such as why would God tell us "Thou shalt not kill" and "Thou shalt love thine neighbor as thy self", but then command people in I Samuel 16 to kill of a nation that was Israel's neighbors (children, women, cattle, everything)?
Part wants to say, "Well, they weren't following the will of God." but the other wants to say "Well, can I go and kill people today because they are not following the will of God"? I don't know.
I'm on this journey and need some words of wisdom. Can someone help me without the brutal comments? Can't handle that right now.
Thanks
I'm currently trying to find out what is the truth in this world and am having a hard time dealing with the splitting of myself.
On one hand I know what I have been taught, but on the other hand I have so many questions that are unanswered, such as why would God tell us "Thou shalt not kill" and "Thou shalt love thine neighbor as thy self", but then command people in I Samuel 16 to kill of a nation that was Israel's neighbors (children, women, cattle, everything)?
Part wants to say, "Well, they weren't following the will of God." but the other wants to say "Well, can I go and kill people today because they are not following the will of God"? I don't know.
I'm on this journey and need some words of wisdom. Can someone help me without the brutal comments? Can't handle that right now.
Thanks
Comments
Of course, the answer to your question is, "No, you can't go out and kill people because they aren't following God's will." If you did, that would make you a musli... I mean, maniac. And if I told you that it was OK to kill heathens, then would that make you feel better, or just worse? I think you know, already.
So, yes. Any God who would do that is an evil God. Furthermore, having lived in two Asian countries where Christians don't make up anywhere near a majority, and having met so many great people, don't you think that it would be unbelievable if God threw them all in hell? What about that that 7-year-old girl who is shy and loves animals, and has heard of Christianity, but follows what her Buddhist parents do? If she gets hit by a bus tomorrow, is it right to send her to the fiery pits forever? Of course not. You have common sense (which is not God-given), so you can easily figure that out. But it goes against what you were taught, so you are probably desperately trying to get both points of view to match, when you know deep down that they can never match.
Let's not get deep into that so much. Let's just talk about some more simple things that rationality will soon give you the correct answer to. Here are a few more things to think about.
1) (In the first page of your Bible) Why is it that God said "Let there be light" on the first day, and there was a day and night, yet God only created the Sun (and Moon and stars) on the fourth day. How could a first day have been possible without the sun?
2) If God is merciful and all-knowing of the past, present, and future, why didn't he just create Noah first? In essence, when he inhumanely drowns the rest of the world (not even talking about Adam and Eve), he's basically saying "I really messed up. Let me start over." But he should have seen it all coming. Either accept evil in the world, or create Noah first. (Of course, there are still many evil people now who don't get drowned.)
3) How did that Noah get two kangaroos, two polar bears, two monarch butterflies, two grey squirrels, two red squirrels, two Pandas, two Koalas, two African Elephants, two Indian Elephants, two Sumatran Elephants...and the millions of other animals, including all manner of bugs, worms, and freshwater fish (that can't survive in brackish water) and saltwater fish (that can't survive in brackish water - rain mixed with the oceans would upset the water balance), and all of the food...you get my drift...into that woooden ark? (We don't even need to mention the excrement.) And you already know the answer to this, too.
You're a smart person. You've started questioning things. That's further than most get. I hope you stay on that journey and finally come over to the rational side.
I know exactly how you are feeling. I went through something very similar myself. I was a student at a bible college when my doubts started to set in. The more I studied the bible, the less I believed. Once I allowed myself to question everything, I was able to come to the conclusion that it was not real, that there were too many atrocities, absurdities, contradictions and errors. I would suggest that you keep reading it with an open and questioning mind. Also I would suggest that you get the book "Losing Faith in Faith" by Dan Barker. He was a minister who became an atheist in much the same way.
Good luck on your journey
it is well worth it!
You are almost there.Stick around and and you'll get the knowledge you need to break away from the craziness and confusion only bible doctrine can create.
Thanks for the very courageous post.---freedy
I'd have to say that your analogy of an unfaithful partner is right on the money. It is as if you go through different stages, such as denial that it actually happened and feeling that you must be mistaken in your belief of it being a reality. Maybe I've misread the situation. That is where I am at this point. I have devoted so much to the church and it is quite difficult to turn away.
What has forged me ahead was a guy I met that is an athiest and brought to light some questions I had as a teenager, but buried for quite some time.
Concerning my parents, well they are from the south as well as I grew up in the south, but am now currently living up north. My father is a minister and my mother a "church mother". This goes back for many generations. My family has portrayed me as "a strong christian with unwavering faith", so to admit these feelings to them is quite frightening.
I'm not sure how to handle this, but to continue to search and find the truth for myself. Thanks to everyone for their comments and encouragement.
Lori
I am very close to where you are right now and I also loved the analogy of finding out a partner had been unfaithful.
I've found that there's so much more to de-converting than making rational decisions based on reason...I can do that part, but I still feel like I am slapping the faces of people I love and respect by rejecting what they believe in so deeply. Note: I am speaking of truly "Christ-like" people not typical Christians, I'd have not problem slapping most of them :)
For me its an inner battle between my heart and my head. I have always followed my heart, but where has that got me? Its not simple. Its painful. Its scary. And for me, its very, very lonely.
Pagan Origins of the Christian Myth dot com is a good start.
:)
take er' slow........
The support and encouragement from the people here is what we all need.
I wish more people would share their testimonies of their deconversions.
They are NEVER boring and even though they are often similar, they are the greatest source of encouragement to all.
Most of us who frequent this site want to follow the evidence wherever it takes us. In evaluating Christianity, we have investigated where it came from, as well as the contradictions and illogic contained in the Bible (babble?).
Besides Dan Barkers book cited in an earlier post, he has a post here on this site called 'dear believer' which is a very powerful read, and can be accessed using the search function. I concur with billybees website recommendation. Also free online I recommend 'new testament narrative as old testament midrash' by Robert Price. The most definitive and documented book I am aware of is 'The Origins of Christianity and the Bible' by Andrew D. Benson.
My very best wishes to you in your endeavor to get at the truth.
Most of us who frequent this site want to follow the evidence wherever it takes us. In evaluating Christianity, we have investigated where it came from, as well as the contradictions and illogic contained in the Bible (babble?).
Besides Dan Barker's book cited in an earlier post, he has a post here on this site called 'dear believer' which is a very powerful read, and can be accessed using the search feature. I concur with billybees website recommendation. Also free online I recommend 'new testament narrative as old testament midrash' by Robert Price. The most definitive and documented book I am aware of is 'The Origins of Christianity and the Bible' by Andrew D. Benson.
My very best wishes to you in your endeavor to get at the truth.
Good luck!
When I was in a similar position to you about two years ago, I did a lot of reading. I recommend Sam Harris's book "Letter to a Christian Nation"- it's short and very interesting! I also did a lot of reading about the problem of evil and the subjects of logic and science. I also read "The Case for Faith" (or maybe it was the Jesus one- I've read both at one point or another) and I was able to see the holes in the author's logic. There were a lot of reviews on the book's Amazon site that pointed them out, too. I did a lot of reading on a huge variety of websites. Many people on here have said they read the whole Bible. I was already decently familiar with the Bible- more than most of my fellow churchgoers, at least the ones my age- but I did read about Biblical inaccuracies and contradictions and checked them out for myself. I also questioned why we should believe some parts of the Bible literally and others not, and what criteria we could possibly use consistently and still come up with an honest belief system. For full disclosure, I ended up an atheist, and I'm very happy with it. My interest is still open, and if I was to find new info that lead me in a different direction, I would follow where evidence and reason took me. In any case, I just recommend lots of reading and reflection. Browse this site- it's a great resource for both reflection, logical arguments, emotional support, ranting, and all other sorts of activities. Welcome! :)
Kati
The tremendous falsehood is that the notion of the God from the Bible commissioned his will and the Bible's authority for the sole purpose for this nation was to be discovered by the white man and his black slaves to conquer nations and save the souls of heathen infidels.
The Bible is used even to this very day, as justification for having (committing wholesale genocide, the killing of almost all the Native people's (Indians, as called by Christopher Columbus, because he thought he had discovered the West Indies, not a new land) whom stole this land and run the Indians on to reservations.
Hence the slogans, "God Bless America", "This country was founded upon Christian principles."
What does this tell you about Christainity?
There's no honor in claiming to be a Christian.
We were all shamlessly mislead.
I can't answer your question, though a lot of believers in an inerrant Bible claim they can -- from Lee Strobel to J.P. Holding. To them it makes perfect sense for God to command us to love our neighbors and even our enemies, but He is going to damn His enemies for eternity, and in the O.T. even speeded up the process a bit.
In fact, according to some famous Catholic and Protestant theologians the people in God's good grace will be blessed by the knowledge and sight of the eternal torments of the damned. Google "abominable fancy"
Of course that's if you believe it. Personally I think the Bible contains information that doesn't quite agree with other information found elsewhere in the Bible. "Blessed are the peacemakers," and "love your enemies," just doesn't seem to go with "I will show them no mercy," and "a curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed."
I have been gone for three days and wanted to catch up. A few of my favorite subjects were discussed.
Ricky, about the flood: there are something in excess of 200,000 species of beetles in the world. Noah got them all on board? What about hookworms? Tapeworms? Were man and beast afflicted with these parasites, 2 of every kind? This assumes that parasites are "unclean". Of course, when the questions become too hard, the flood people bring in their miracles. God did it. Switching from science to religion so fast it makes your head spin.
genesis says that every mountain on earth was covered (7:19) This would include Mt Everest, about 29,000 feet above sea level. Now just how did man and beast survive at that altitude? god came through again with another miracle?
But my biggest objection is a god who would do this sort of thing; killing everyone on earth; for what? Who would love such a god? Fear him; hate him; sure, but love him? The gospel says that god loved the world (john 3:16) When did god start loving the world? You have read about the flood; you have read the "war stories" of the old testament. god hated the world. Maybe god became a buddhist at some point.
Good post, Ricky
Steven, about the "christian nation: That shit comes out of the xristians overheated imagination. The xristian mind is a fetid breeding ground for fantasy.
This is rather funny: Tom Jefferson, as you know, took a new testament and underlined the parts he thought were stupid. james kennedy said that Jefferson's intention was to produce a "digest" of the bible for use in evangelising the Indians.
Lola, I began reading The Case for Faith and it was so bad I had to quit. I may take it up later. I should have quit at the first chapter. He actually had the nuts to say that god allows suffering to bring about some greater good. An all-powerful god has to hurt little children to bring us good? Some god. Some power.
Hi billy. The similarity of the jesus story to something like 22 "saviors" was an embarrasment to church fathers. They said that Satan foresaw the incarnation, so he spent a 1000 years spreading false religions about false gods and heroes. When the real god came along, he looked like a mere copy.
I am off to read some more posts. Hope you had a good holiday. Too bad about Danica Patrick.
Quite a few people have addressed your concerns and done so quite intelligently, compassionately and fairly.
I would agree with the greater part of pretty much everything that has been written here and have a few thoughts that perhaps are not duplicates of what's already been said.
Most importantly, this book called the Bible. There are two very serious, if not downright dangerous beliefs about the Bible that I think cannot be validly supported. I say "I think" only because what I am about to say is a matter that each individual in this world must decide for him or herself.
There is too much evidence within the Bible itself to escape this conclusion: The Bible is NOT divinely inspired. Therefore one should NOT read it requiring one's self to believe and/or abide by anything or everything that one reads in it. The ultimate decisions should be made by the reader--not the writers. Because the Bible has been regarded as divinely inspired (does that mean dictated by God? Most believers treat it that way!) It gets regarded in a very different way than any other book. Think of any book (especially opinion type books)you have ever read. There are places in them that you perhaps love and identify with. There are other parts you may doubt or outright disagree with. Very likely, none of us suffers any serious guilt over the parts that we disagree with. That's because we don't consider the author to be a God and we see it as OK to disagree. When we read the Bible though, in the back of our heads is this powerful fear that everything we read is put there by God and so we are supposed to find some kind of great value and ultimate moral good in it. That is what the various writers wanted their readers to think. On top of that guilt trip that we carry like a heavy pack on our backs, we suffer from the further fear that those who are most or very important to us (such as parents) will go into shock and perhaps totally reject us for not staying with the "club." I have used that word with people many times saying "I simply have come to the conclusion that I cannot buy into the club." If you decide to disbelieve totally, there is a great likelihood that you will experience some persecution from those who don't have that kind of courage. They are the fundamentalists and often also
evangelicals of the Christian Church.
I think it should be mentioned that not all churches under the Christian umbrella are as irrational, conservative, theologically backward, and just plain wrong as are the fundamentalists and evangelicals, But, if you go to a worship service in a more "liberal" church they still often seem as though they are living somewhere in the past.
There is a tremendous amount I could say by way of clarification about people in the church who feel that they have a special handle on the truth. That "truth" of theirs is largely based on emotion. Much of religious and non religious loyalty is based upon emotionally generated decisions and, as such, is a totally private experience. I can believe that what I feel is true but I cannot claim that I know your belief is false. Fundamentalists often think that they can. They are wrong.
I would recommend a book to you that will leave you totally able to choose for yourself what is right for you. It is actually by a retired Bishop, John Shelby Spong and the book is called "The Sins of Scripture." His writing is a genuine breath of fresh air. He will not predjudice you for or against Christianity. He really has the good sense to give you real facts about the Bible and let you choose what you believe for yourself. Finally, he does not support taking the Bible as divinely inspired or literally. In his thesis, it is an historical epic just like the Greek epics. It will give anyone the support they need for whatever side of the fence they choose to live on.
I am also attempting, arrogantly perhaps, to write a book on the subject of belief and non belief. My first chapter only is in blog form on the internet. The book will be entitled "Believe" is a Troublesome Word. That first chapter (currently 27 pages of stuff) is kind of an anthropological look at how people become believers in any religion by default. My second chapter, which I am currently writing and eventually will post, is how and why people become non believers. It is not and will not be judgmental. Should you want to look at it you can find it on www.beliefistroublesome.blogspot.com/
www.believeistroublesome.blogspot.com/
Sorry, there is no god.
Forget about ultimate truth nonsense Lori- There's no such thing. If there is such a thing as God, he's never even heard of the bible- or planet Earth for that matter. There is far too much information in the universe for our race to ever collect. So why do we need to try to understand everything? Some things simply have no meaning. Just try to enjoy your time surfing the explosion.
You said "Just try to enjoy your time surfing the explosion."
I don't know if you came up with that or if you heard it from someone else, but it is brilliant either way. Thanks!
And to Lori,
Good luck on your journey. I'd recommend the book "Leaving the Fold" edited by Edward T. Babinski. Yes, the same guy that posted above. It is a great book with all kinds of stories of people that have left fundamentalism in one way or another. It really helped me.
"The Dark Side" by Valerie Tarico is another great book that you can get from this web site.
Peace.
-Lance
Surfing the explosion is all mine but since you liked it I think I'll copywrite it now. I was going to go with: 'Riding the explosion' but I thought 'Surfing' was way more Illustrative.
Thanks Lance
Imagine there is a divine, loving God who wanted a personal relationship with us all.
Now consider the Bible. Do you think God would be responsible for that? Let it fall open at any page and start reading the utter garbage in it.
Brett
I truly wish you happiness.