It's a big old world without god

From L.E.B.

I was only a Christian for a few years, of my own choosing, and I am glad my parents were a-religious. They didn't brainwash us to anything except treat other people nicely. I did the same with my own kids and though sometimes I worry they don't "fit in," they all know how to think logically.

I don't hold a lot of animosity toward the ‘church,’ anymore. I was a Jesus-freak back in the day, mostly Four Square Gospel -- sister Amiee's church. I am, however, still pissed off that the pastor of my home church embezzled money to buy land for himself; I worked damn hard for the tithes I faithfully donated each payday. I had already left the church by the time they found out about that, so it wasn't like I had to face him or anything.

It never ceases to amaze me that the people who profess the loudest about morals or whatever are the ones who end up in sleazy sex scandals or run off with the money from the poor box or molest children. Why is that? The main thing that finally turned me off the church was the hypocrisy and the greed.

But then there was the doubting that there is a god, which is a totally different thing than leaving the people in church. It is the idea of leaving the idea of god behind, and I am still not sure about that sometimes. As my uncle said, “It's a big old world without god -- kind of scary.” What he said is true, and there is some kind of emotional support about having that imaginary friend in the sky that you can depend on. Right now I am considering the agnostic vs. the atheist thing and not sure where I stand. The flying spaghetti monster not withstanding, it would be nice if there was a god and it was as nice as I wanted it to be, but -- yeah -- wanting it to happen doesn't make it real

About that crazy Marc who wants to convert us all back to his nut cult of some version of Christianity (all religions are nut cults, really). Well, I wonder if he is just scared that we all are right, and there is no god and he's been basing his life on a lie. If so, that kind of thinking that tends to make you defensive. Fear is a big motivator, so that's were you need to go with him. Unless of course he just needs to take his meds anyway, in which case there's not a damn thing anyone can do for him, poor guy. All those other saviors who try to re-convert us, they are either: a) scared shitless that we're right or b) so thoroughly convinced and worried about us all (god bless 'em) that they just want us to be saved-and-happy-and-live-with-god-in-heaven-forever!

Anyway, this is a very worth-while site. Are there others like it? If not, that's surprising, huh? I wish you all the luck with the site. Good luck to all trying to get over what the whack jobs have done to their heads.

I try to think of my time as a Christian as a stepping stone to enlightenment (don't ask me what I mean by that; I don't know), but I have moved on, mostly, although TEEVEE preachers and arrogant sexist preachers still piss me off a lot.

Have fun!

69 comments:

eejay said...

Great post. I think deconversion for you was a little easier because it doesn't appear from your letter that you endured years of brainwashing. Sometimes I wish there was a God too, (yeah, a nice one), but for me it made no sense to pursue it any farther, because I searched, and searched, and searched again. I found nothing. The bible itself, I've pretty much always felt a lot of the stories were fairy tales.
You mentioned the x-tians who feel the have to save us. No, I don't think they REALLY care about us. I think they are just trying to impress their imaginary god. The more brownie points they get, you know, something like that.

Anonymous said...

Hi and welcome to reality. Its so nice on the other side. Have fun wherever your journy takes you!

Sandra

resonate11 said...

"It is the idea of leaving the idea of god behind, and I am still not sure about that sometimes. As my uncle said, “It's a big old world without god -- kind of scary.” What he said is true, and there is some kind of emotional support about having that imaginary friend in the sky that you can depend on."

I highly recommend "Letting Go of God" by Julia Sweeney.

Anonymous said...

It IS a scary world but, the way I look at it, pretending there's a god in the sky doesn't really make it any safer.

People tend to dwell on the idea that a god would have the power to set things right but this is a logical inconsistency that is the foundation of the brainwashing process of religions like Christianity.

First off, a 'perfect' god wouldn't invent imperfect beings, place them in a hostile universe, and then expect them to evolve into something perfect. An omnipotent, omniscient god wouldn't need a 'Plan'.

My feeling is that once one learns to accept the idea that there is no such thing as perfection in this world that it can become something that is empowering. It means that WE have control over our destinies. It means that when we help others, we are actually helping ourselves as a race. Yeah, it sucks that it takes us so long to learn from our mistakes but we are NOT pawns in some game that is being played between good and evil. We are slowly realizing that mental and physiological illnesses along with environmental stresses can shape who we are and that we can affect the shape of our own course through abandoning superstitious, logically impossible ideas and working within the confines of our reality through science.

It's a little like leaving home. Sure, it'd be nice to believe my parents are perfect and would take care of me and fix every problem I ever had. But why waste time pining for something that's not even possible? Since I moved out, many years ago, I fount out that I enjoyed making my own rules and not having to answer to their authority. It was the same way when I let go of the god nonsense. I found it freeing.

Sophia

Anonymous said...

Without God this world is without hope.

Without God we are all damned, and we are all headed for destruction.

God save us from the disasters that await us, and the destruction of this planet.

Amen.

AtheistToothFairy said...

Anonymous wrote:
Without God we are all damned, and we are all headed for destruction
----
Any-Mouse,

I beg to differ with your conclusion here.

If this 'destruction' happens, it will be caused by you religious nuts and not us.

Most historical atrocities have been done in the name of religious beliefs.
Nothing summons up more passion to destroy, than the BLIND faith in some supernatural being.

ATF (Who thinks only the non-religious should have access to the "big-button" that can blow us all up)

Anonymous said...

Atheisttoothfairy,

Have you not heard about these comets and asteroids coming close to striking earth one day?

Many scientists believe that the likelihood of that happening is pretty good, considering that there is all types of space junk floating around out there. One of them has even said that it's a wonder that we haven't been hit by some space object yet.

Plus remember that Jupiter got bombarded by some asteroids or comets a few years back.

Plus the Earth's sun will one day go super nova.

Yes the world will be destroyed one day by the Supernatural (God).

webmdave said...

"Without God this world is without hope.

Without God we are all damned, and we are all headed for destruction. "


Well that settles it. There is now no longer any doubt in my mind that Christianity is a depressingly pessimistic death cult. Sheesh!

Anonymous said...

Webmaster,

You apparently did not read my post about the real possibility of asteroids and comets smashing into the earth along with the fact that the sun is going to go super nova one day.

Do you really believe that this earth will last forever? It's a reality no matter if you believe in God or not. Check your scientific/Astronomy data on that.

I can tell you right now that man will not be the one's who destroy this planet.

webmdave said...

Boo, boo, fear, fear.... scary, horrible, terror, shiver and shake.

What a religion!

WOW!

Astreja said...

Anonymouse: "...Plus the Earth's sun will one day go super nova."

Scientific nitpick here... Our sun doesn't have sufficient mass to go supernova. It is, however, projected to become a red giant as it burns off the last of the hydrogen. Rather than collapsing and exploding, it'll burn helium for a while, then throw off a few layers and end up as a white dwarf.

But, since we're only 93 million miles away, Earth'll probably get whacked just the same.

AtheistToothFairy said...

Doom Sayer Anonymouse said:
Have you not heard about these comets and asteroids coming close to striking earth one day?
Many scientists believe that the likelihood of that happening is pretty good, considering that there is all types of space junk floating around out there.....
Plus remember that Jupiter got bombarded by some asteroids or comets a few years back


Yes indeed I'm quite familiar with the threat of comets and/or asteroids striking the earth.
Cable TV stations have recently even aired some documentaries, about the various threats that could threaten our earth.

Firstly, as far as Juptier goes. That planet is a MUCH larger 'target' than our earth, and it's gravitational pull out into space, far exceeds that of our much smaller earth. These two factors would greatly increase it's chances of getting hit by space objects.

So, how likely is it that some future asteroid or comet will be our doom.
Well, this is some of what Wikipedia articles have to say on this matter......
----
Asteroid Impacts: Future events

2029 near miss
99942 Apophis (previously known by its provisional designation 2004 MN4) will pass within 6 Earth radii of the Earth's center. Chances of impact have been revised to zero. There is, however, a very small possibility of a return and impact by Apophis in 2036.

2880 encounter
If (29075) 1950 DA continues on its present orbit, it will approach near to the Earth on March 16, 2880. Over the intervening time, the rotation of the asteroid will cause its orbit to change (by the Yarkovsky effect). A preliminary analysis shows two possible pole directions (Giorgini, et al., 2002 "Asteroid 1950 DA's 2880 Encounter with Earth"). One trajectory misses the Earth by tens of millions of kilometers, while the other has an impact probability of 1/300.

Near misses and forecasts for impact events

While several less threatening future strikes are listed on Wikipedia, this one in particular might interest you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_event#Near_misses_and_forecasts

In 2004, a newly discovered 320-m asteroid, 99942 Apophis (previously called 2004 MN4), achieved the highest impact probability of any potentially dangerous object. The probability of collision on 13 April 2029 was estimated to be as high as 1 in 17 by Steve Chesley of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory though the worst published figure was 1 in 37 calculated in December 2004. Later observations showed that the asteroid will miss the earth by 25,600 km (within the orbits of communications satellites) in 2029, but its orbit will be altered unpredictably in a way which does not rule out a collision on 13 or 14 April 2036 or later in the century. These possible future dates have a cumulative probability of 1 in 45,000 for an impact in the 21stcentury
----

Because there exists a threat of such objects hitting the earth in the future, an ongoing effort is in effect to discover and map-out any potential threats from these space objects.
If such objects are found early on, we already have plans in how to deal with them long before they reach us. One idea that was presented on a recent History Channel documentary, involved sending a large probe to such an object, using it's own gravity to slowly alter the course of the threatening object.

While it's sure 'possible' that we might get caught off-guard by some object big enough to wipe out life on this earth, the chances would be quite slim indeed.

>Plus the Earth's sun will one day go super nova.

Yeah, and YOU are personally worried for yourself and US, about some very distant future sun event.... exactly WHY?
As I see, Astreja just confirmed my suspicion and the sun won't go super nova at all.
So then, what about when the sun turns into a red star and then engulfs the earth as it grows greatly in size?

If the fundies are right and jesus second coming is just around the corner, then why would any xtian be worried about what the sun will do to the earth, millions of years from now?

>Yes the world will be destroyed one day by the Supernatural (God).

Yeah sure, and I suppose this god will use the focused gamma ray burst from an exploding distant star, to destroy all life on this planet to?

You know, there are MANY various ways that life and/or the earth itself could meet it's end.
Does that mean we should all be sitting around worrying ourselves to death about some possible pending doom.
If it's your nature to worry to this degree, then I suggest you not get into a car/train/bus/plane or cross any streets when walking, as those things have a far greater chance of killing each of us than any asteroid, comet, or gamma ray burst does, in our lifetime.

Let's suppose that some huge asteroid got past our ability to detect it and hit the earth, wiping out most of it's life forms, should we then conclude that this asteroid was being driven by your god into our earth?
How does one make a connection between a passive hunk of ancient space rock and a god using it as a heavenly weapon upon our earth?

If god wanted us to know at that point in time, that it was HE that was about to take-out our planet, an asteroid or comet would not convince us of his existence, anymore than clouds in the sky offer proof to us of a skygod using them as footstool for his big clod feet.

So doom sayer, you can sit there idle, just praying away for your god to destroy our earth, or you can get on with your life, as we will.
Some of the more active participants in the human race, will continue to watch for the threats that could destroy our earth and make plans to deal with it.

If your god actually exists and has plans to pay us another visit and to destroy the earth in that plan, then I'm sure he also would have his own inherent power to do so, without the need of throwing giant frozen snowballs or space rocks, at us.

Now, go back and stick your nose in your holy babble book.
Just sit there like a mud-pie and keep praying for your skydaddy to return to you.
The rest of us have OTHER plans for the future of this earth and it's inhabitants.


ATF (Who just laughs at xtians when they try and attribute the forces of nature, to their creepy god being)

Anonymous said...

Good Day To All, I have often asked myself why is it necessary for us to believe in a higher being in order for most of us to live from day to day (I being ONE of them)I have also often question the bible principles of good and evil as any rational person would, I personally believe in God but what I think is the problem is is that because the bible was written by men (who were born in original sin) some of the bible were contaminated by their own ideals therefore misleading the masses, I myself have a live and let live attitude & I see no reason why we can't be logical about the contents and the reasons for the "Good Book" Finding A Balance Is Most Important In Having A Good Life"

Anonymous said...

"I think is the problem is is that because the bible was written by men (who were born in original sin) some of the bible were contaminated by their own ideals therefore misleading the masses"

Exactly my point. The bible is not authentic.

AtheistToothFairy said...

Anonymous wrote:
... the bible was written by men (who were born in original sin) some of the bible were contaminated by their own ideals therefore misleading the masses
----
Anon,

So let me see if I understand you correctly here Anon.
You believe in god, which I assume would be the xtian bible god?

Do you also assume that god oversaw the writing of his message?
If so, then why would god allow these men (with original sin or not) to screw up his divine word with their own biases?
Did he not have the power to stop the corruption of his very own messages?
If not, then he's sure not all-powerful like the bible proclaims him to be, right.

If the bible wasn't divinely inspired by god, but were just the thoughts of men alone, then if there is a god, this god must exists outside of the bible teachings.
Therefore, the teachings of the bible are nothing but made up fables, RIGHT?

Now surely you don't mean to imply that god did a half-hearted job of overseeing the writing of his ONLY handbook to his human pets, right?

Pehaps you better rethink your position, because you can't have it both ways my friend.


ATF (Who thinks the concept of original sin, came from some ancient SNAKE-oil salesmen)

Anonymous said...

ATF,

Of course you do know that most christians are going to claim that God's spirit basically came over these men and he wrote the bible through them.

Kind of like he took possesion of their bodies and did the writing with their hands I guess you could say, or God simply spoke to these men and told them what to write.

I'm sure you know the old song and dance that most christians will use.

AtheistToothFairy said...

black swede wrote:
Of course you do know that most christians are going to claim that God's spirit basically came over these men and he wrote the bible through them
---
Hi black swede,

Well I was already assuming anon would say the holy ghostie was 'using' their bodies to do the physical writing of HIS thoughts.
However, anon's point was that some of the writings were corrupted by personal 'ideals' of these men.

Now even if god told them what to write and they went back later on, on their own that is, and changed things around, wouldn't god have known they messed with his divine words?
Of course an all-knowing god would know, as he knows it all, right.

So the way I see it, this god of theirs could never have produced faulty writings, whether men with original sin wanted to change god's words, or not.

If one chooses to believe the bible is the perfect word of this xtian god, then the only excuse they have left, is whether something should be taken literally or not.
Of course, god forgot to put in footnote disclaimers about what should be literal and what wasn't. Perhaps god's foresight abilities were on the fritz during those days of bible writings.
(No, I don't mean Fritz the Cat either)

What amazes me is how many xtians still believe the bible was written by men who actually knew jesus in the flesh.
If they only realized the bible writings were written a century or TWO after he supposedly have lived.
Not one author of the bible, ever laid eye's upon a walking/talking jesus.

Of course, xtians insist that jesus existed, yet they have almost zero evidence for this claim, yet with faith alone, they are absolutely sure he did once walk this earth.

I dare any xtian to prove to me that jesus actually existed, as the bible portrays him to have existed.

Any takers out there?


ATF (Who thinks our mainstream present day historians should start speaking up about the severe lack of evidence of this christ person from ancient history)

Cousin Ricky said...

L.E.B. wrote: “About that crazy Marc who wants to convert us all back to his nut cult of some version of Christianity... Well, I wonder if he is just scared that we all are right, and there is no god and he's been basing his life on a lie. If so, that kind of thinking that tends to make you defensive. Fear is a big motivator, so that's were you need to go with him.”

I’m not sure exactly what you’re getting at, but fear can be a factor in more than one way. One does not wish to have been wrong all one’s life, and that’s one fear that i know well. But being afraid of being wrong doesn’t mean that i’m right; and being defensive my beliefs doesn’t make them right. If i was wrong, i’d want to learn that i was wrong and correct that situation, no matter how long it had been going on.

Once i was deep into my crisis of faith, however, the other fear raised its fallacious head. Yes, the Big One. Pascal’s wager. Many Christians claim that Christianity is not about fear; but let them say that again if ever comes the day when they seriously doubt the faith. Fortunately, in the deconversion process, fear of hell is self-limiting. When belief in hell vanishes, so does the fear of hell.

So Marc, what have you got to lose but your fears?

Cousin Ricky said...

Anony-mouse #3297016994428294729 wrote: “Have you not heard about these comets and asteroids coming close to striking earth one day?

“Many scientists believe that the likelihood of that happening is pretty good, considering that there is all types of space junk floating around out there. One of them has even said that it's a wonder that we haven't been hit by some space object yet.

“Plus remember that Jupiter got bombarded by some asteroids or comets a few years back.”


And this means that Christianity is true how?

Anony-scared-little-mouse wrote: “Plus the Earth's sun will one day go super nova.”

No (see Astreja’s comment), but close enough. But it’ll be a billion years before the Earth becomes too sun-baked to support life, and another 6 billion years after that before it gets whacked. By then, none of us will be around to worry about it.

Anony-Chicken-Little-mouse wrote: “Yes the world will be destroyed one day by the Supernatural (God).”

And you know this how?

Anonymous said...

Anony-Chicken-Little-mouse wrote: “Yes the world will be destroyed one day by the Supernatural (God).”

Cousin Ricky:
"And you know this how?"

Because man cannot control space or other cosmic events.

Who else has the power to do so? What a dumb question you just asked.

Cousin Ricky said...

Hey guys, I got another one!

1. Man cannot control space or other cosmic events.

2. Therefore, God exists.

(A live one—and he thinks that I’m the dumb one!).)

Anonymous said...

"(A live one—and he thinks that I’m the dumb one!)."

So explain who or what controls space then.

Please explain to me how all of this stuff is controlled and who keeps it all in place.

This should be good.

Astreja said...

Anonymouse, no one keeps things in place. The natural properties of matter and energy are responsible for everything... Protons, neutrons, electrons... Gravity, magnetism, strong and weak atomic forces... And many other things that we have yet to discover.

Sit very quietly for a moment and try to imagine a "mind" managing one molecule of the E key on the keyboard you're using. These are just some of the processes that must be tracked:

- Electrons in motion around the various atoms that make up the molecule of plastic

- Gravity pulling the molecule down towards the center of the earth

- Inertia and momentum as your finger hits the key

- Gain or loss of energy as the room temperature goes up or down

Now, expand that "control" to encompass the entire universe. Can you see the absurdity of some sentient being "controlling" these myriad processes, in realtime?

No, a sensible omni-god (such as the Deist version) would set everything up to be self-managing rather than micro-managing everything from galaxies to quarks.

However, the Deist god is as much a hypothesis as the various theistic gods worshipped by humans. All are unproven, and all of them require substantially more explanation than "The universe was always here, in some form, and operates without divine intervention of any sort."

Anonymous said...

Astreja's input:
"The natural properties of matter and energy are responsible for everything... Protons, neutrons, electrons... Gravity, magnetism, strong and weak atomic forces... And many other things that we have yet to discover"

Ok so tell me who makes all of these things possible? They all just don't happen on their own, so there must be someone who is behind the control of these things that you mentioned in your post Astreja.

You are actually on the right track believe it or not.

Astreja said...

"Must be someone" in charge?

No. I don't think so.
I really don't think so.

The moment you place a "someone" in the equation, you have to explain the "someone". Where -did- this being come from?

It's unfruitful to go down the "Who created the creator" path, because that leads to infinite regress (or, as I like to call it, Argumentum ad TurtlesAllTheWayDown). ;-)

So did this god just pop into existence one day in the infinite past? Again, not very likely. In The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins alludes to Fred Hoyle's claim that compares the probability of life on Earth to the probability of a fully-functioning Boeing 747 being thrown together by random processes during a hurricane.

Dawkins then extends the analogy by asserting that a universe-creating god is "the ultimate 747" -- A complex, hyperintelligent, infinitely powerful, eternally existing being... that came out of nowhere? Out of random processes?

No... Such a being is far too complex.

That leaves one other possibility. Was this god "always there"? If you say yes, then why is it so difficult to accept that some form of matter and energy (not necessarily organized) has always been here? That's a much simpler explanation than an eternal god.

Cousin Ricky said...

Anonymous wrote: “So explain who or what controls space then.

“Please explain to me how all of this stuff is controlled and who keeps it all in place.”


Anonymous wrote: “Ok so tell me who makes all of these things possible? They all just don't happen on their own, so there must be someone who is behind the control of these things that you mentioned in your post Astreja.”

You’re anthropomorphizing the universe. Rather self-centered, isn’t it? It’s only human arrogance that assumes that someone needs to control the things that humans can’t.

Suppose you trip and fall. Did you push yourself towards the center of the Earth (“down”) at a uniform acceleration of 98 centimeters per second per second? Did God push you down? If you say “yes” to the latter, then we’ll just have to agree to disagree. If you said “yes” to the former, then you need medical attention. But if you fall because that’s just the way things happen, can you see how everything behaves according to intrinsic properties that we have dubbed “laws of nature”?

Anonymous said...

I've been reading these posts and I have decided to throw my 2 cents worth in.

I have to say that for me personally I cannot deny the existence of some higher power or a higher intelligence of some sort. I could never be an atheist. I've seen this next comment of mine posted on here before, and I have to agree that it takes more faith to be an atheist IMHO.

At the same time, I do not believe in the Christian God. I rejected christianity several years ago, however at the same time it just doesn't make sense for there not to be a higher form of life that is in control of the universe. Things just don't happen on their own folks.

boomSLANG said...

Deist: I have to say that for me personally I cannot deny the existence of some higher power or a higher intelligence of some sort.

Fair enough. But here's a question for you: Do you think that it would be possible(and if so, likely) for this "higher intelligence" that you believe exists, to deny the existence of an intelligence "Higher" than that of itself? If not, please provide your reasoning, I'd like to hear this.

Deist: I could never be an atheist.

Oh, sure you could. In fact, you already were an Atheist, at one point. From the time when you were born, up until someone exposed you to the idea of a "God" concept, you were a passive Atheist. So, better stated, it would read... "I could never go back to being an Atheist".

Deist: I've seen this next comment of mine posted on here before, and I have to agree that it takes more faith to be an atheist IMHO.

It takes "more faith"? More faith than what, exactly? In any event, if you've seen that comment "on here before", then I'd be surprised if you haven't, too, seen some common rebuttles to said erroneous, nonsensical assertion. One of which, might be in the form of a question. One such as: Does it require "faith" on your part if/when you deny the existence of such personal entities as "Allah", "Saturn", "Thor", and "Odin"? In fact, does it require "faith" to deny any negative? Please explain.

Deist: At the same time, I do not believe in the Christian God.

Forgive me for not being convinced right away, but for now - and assuming you're being honest - my question is, what do you base your denial of said "God" of the bible, on? 'Just curious.

Deist: I rejected christianity several years ago, however at the same time it just doesn't make sense for there not to be a higher form of life that is in control of the universe.

Interestingly, what you say here implies belief in a personal deity, which, to the best of my knowledge, does not coincide at all with what "Deism" is all about. The key-word being, "control".

Deist: Things just don't happen on their own folks.

What are you saying; are you saying that every effect in the Universe happens intentfully?.. that it's being initiated by a personal "Intelligence"? Or, are you speaking of the singularity? Please elaborate.

Jim Arvo said...

BoomSLANG said "Do you think that it would be possible(and if so, likely) for this 'higher intelligence' that you believe exists, to deny the existence of an intelligence 'Higher' than that of itself?"

Ooooooh, good question Boomer. I would like to hear an answer to that as well.

As for Deist never being an atheist, not only is it true that he/she once was, it's also true that he/she already is an atheist... with respect to hundreds of gods.

Deist said "...it just doesn't make sense for there not to be a higher form of life..."

Your reasoning doesn't make sense to me; therefore, if we were to apply it, it doesn't exist! How convenient.

Anonymous said...

Cousin Ricky said: "So Marc, what have you got to lose but your fears?"

I haven't been here for a while and you guys are still having conversations with me. :) No time to read this thread but I hope the person speaking for me has reminded you that God loves all of you.

I know, I know, it makes you want to gag but He actually does and He is ready to wipe the slate clean. Once you receive Him and accept His Mercy, guess what Cousin Ricky, no more fear!!! With Faith comes peace, not fear.

I have never slept more soundly in my life. I'll continue to hope and pray that all of you find the only true source of peace and joy, in Jesus.

Don't forget, we're in the middle of Lent so try to store up those graces with fervent prayers and sacrifices. We live in a special time of graces, despite the deplorable apostasy of this world.

Blessings,
UnBlinded

Jim Arvo said...

Get some counseling, Marc. You've got a personality disorder at minimum.

boomSLANG said...

Infected droid: I haven't been here for a while and you guys are still having conversations with me. :)

No, we are having conversations with a collective mental illness. So, in that sense, we are having conversations with "you", even in the absence of your true identity---the identity you lost when you became ill. That's right, similar to when you talk to an alcoholic. In that case, you are essentially talking to the alcohol, not the "person"; the person is MIA, so the "illness" does all the talking for them...i.e.."I don't have drinking problem", said the infected drinker...or, "God loves all you", said the infected religious droid.

Droid continues: I hope the person speaking for me has reminded you that God loves all of you.

Ah, excellent timing!....this will illustrate my point, perfectly. Okay, I can sit here and publish post after post after post, delineating in clear terms, how this alleged "love" of the alleged christian biblegod is totally fraudulent; how it is totally conditional, yet, like the alcoholic won't hear anything they don't want to hear, and he or she is only thinking about their next drink, likewise, the infected religious droid won't hear anything they don't want to hear, and he or she is only looking forward to their next imaginary encounter with their invisible 'friend'.

Droid: I know, I know, it makes you want to gag but He actually does and He is ready to wipe the slate clean.

The religio-droid can't see it, but in concept, the "slate" is already allegedly "wiped clean" because of the alleged "salvation". In other words, the concept of "Jesus" dying for OUR "sins" has unspoken stipulations that Christians don't like to talk about.

Once again, we're talking conditions, here. But of course, the infected person flat-out refuses to see this, and will bend, twist, weasle-word, or flat-out ignore the fact---anything, to avoid having to see their "Truth" as the lies, and mand-made bullshit that it is.

Droid: With Faith comes peace, not fear.

In many cases this is actually true. Many of the ignorantly blissful faithful live peaceful lives. Oh, goody. The problem is, no one can agree on which "faith" is rooted in reality, not even droids of the same specific religion. There are over 30,000 strains of the Christian virus, alone.

Droid: I have never slept more soundly in my life.

Often times, a common symptom is lethargy, or drowsiness, induced by the disease.

Droid: I'll continue to hope and pray that all of you find the only true source of peace and joy, in Jesus.

Don't forget, we're in the middle of Lent so try to store up those graces with fervent prayers and sacrifices. We live in a special time of graces, despite the deplorable apostasy of this world.

Blessings,
UnBlinded


Sadly, for some, death will be the only "cure" for their delusional thinking.

Anonymous said...

If I do Jim, it is certainly not manifest in my personal or work life. My wife & children love me dearly and I them, my boss and his boss gave me a significant promotion last year, my longtime friends still wish to spend time with me (despite my busy family life), I play team sports and I’ve seen lots of other guys get kicked off the team but I’m still there. I’ve been at the same employer for well over 10 years.

I dated a psychologist a couple years before I met my wife and got into a few conversations about personality disorders back then. I recall her saying that there are nine diagnosable personality disorders and we got into this interesting chat about where our past loves may or may not have fit into one of those disorders. Most important thing I recall about any personality disorder is that they will have a significant impact in all your life's relationships. I truly have none of these disorders Jim. I'm certainly not saying I'm perfect, God knows I'm about as far from that as possible. Despite my imperfection I do desire & endeavor to be loving, caring & just with all people in my life. Even though I come up short, I'll keep desiring God's will for all my life's choices.

I share this to maybe help you understand that you are truly wrong about me, when it comes to “personality disorders”. You’ve said this to me before but I’ve never proposed the real reason you may feel this way about me. Do you think that it might be because I love Jesus, a being that is unbelievable to you? Is it possible that you may despise Jesus because of all the implications that come part-&-parcel with His words? If this is why you try to smear me with words, I should really tell you, you cannot. I’ve already smeared my life better than anyone else can do. Regardless of that past, my God loves me and in this, I do not doubt.

I wish you well and would never hold a grudge with you Jim. Your many colorful comments over the months do nothing but raise pity in my heart. I’m sorry, but that is the truth. I hope your young child is doing well (if I recall correctly). Our youngest is just over a year old and he is just a joy to be around. Do you really think that random events made you and your child’s life possible, really? I know you hate to hear it Jim (because it lacks “credibility”) but there is a Prime Mover and He entered Time & Space to tell you about Himself. He did this in the name of Jesus Christ. Everyone’s savior, if they choose it. Maybe someday you’ll receive the grace to actually listen to His words, they are life!

Sincerely,
UnBlinded

boomSLANG said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
boomSLANG said...

Everyone’s savior, if they choose it["it", i.e..Christianity]

[bold added]

Well piant me red and call me the debil....finally!...finally "Marc" gets real and actually admits and exposes the Truth about his religion.

So no, in concept, Jesus most certainly did NOT die for "OUR sins"....no, he died only for the sins of Christians. Proving, once again, that things like "Commandments" and "sin", mean jack-squat---ONLY belief matters in the end; belief trumps everything! What a complete and utter mockery of the words "love" and "justice".

You should be ashamed of yourselves, Christians.

Anonymous said...

Hey Unblinded!

High Fives to you my brother in Christ!

webmdave said...

"Despite my imperfection I do desire & endeavor to be loving, caring & just with all people in my life."

You sir, are a liar. I have asked you dozens and dozens of times to cease and desist posting here. In response you have created numerous pseudonyms and at times you have spammed the site with the same post as many as 50 times in a row.

This, Troy, is Marc. He believes that Mary is appearing to people around the world as well as a host of other interesting Roman Catholic myths. And, he has been politely asked to stop posting here, but maintains that he has some personal mandate from The Almighty to correct the errors of this website and that allows him to ignore all such requests. After all, I'm only the owner of this site. Why would anyone have to honor my request? Especially since I'm not a Christian?

Unblinded (Marc), I would like to ask you for ten dollars. And Troy, you said you would give me ten dollars, but I haven't seen a dime yet.

Both of you are liars.

Anonymous said...

Webmaster Claims that:
"This, Troy, is Marc. He believes that Mary is appearing to people around the world as well as a host of other interesting Roman Catholic myths"

You seem to think that every single christian poster who posts on this site is the same poster known as Marc.

Sorry to burst your bubble WM, but I am not Marc. I am someone who has fooled you on numerous occasions.

I also have found that it does not take much to ruffle the feathers of people like you, Boomslang, and Trancelation. All one has to do is mention Jesus or some scripture and you all come charging after that post like a pack of hungry wolves. All of you are so predictable. I know how to jerk all of your chains, and get under all of your skins.

I must admit that I have had a jolly old time doing so, oh and btw.........I'm really not a christian so as far as what God commands of me to give you ten dollars, it does not apply to me since I am not a christian, so therefore I'm not going to give you shit. LMAO!!!!!!

Troy (The Fake Christian & A Liar)

Jim Arvo said...

Marc/Unblinded/Luke/Yogi/Passerby,

You've been asked to leave numerous times. You cannot absorb the most elementary points, even after repeated lengthy explanations. Yet you are somehow *compelled* to come back here by the belief that you are in possession of some fantastic truth that we have somehow overlooked or pridefully rejected. This is such profound arrogance (self aggrandizing) that I see it as a sickness of some kind. Of course, you will say "But I'm such a retched creature....", which is disingenuous. If you are that retched, then admit that what you have to say carries no more weight than anybody else's opinion, and accept that we disagree with you. But you cannot do that, can you? No. What you believe is "absolute", therefore you have license to ignore everybody else's wishes. That's a sickness. (I've explained this many times.)

I don't know what's going on with "Troy", and frankly I'm not going to waste a moment worrying about it.

Have a nice day Marc, Troy, and whoever else wishes to have one.

boomSLANG said...

Troy... in his own words, "the Fake Christian & Liar", concludes:

I also have found that it does not take much to ruffle the feathers of people like you, Boomslang, and Trancelation. All one has to do is mention Jesus or some scripture and you all come charging after that post like a pack of hungry wolves. All of you are so predictable. I know how to jerk all of your chains, and get under all of your skins.

Uh huh...and therefore, what, exactly? What?..so you are capable of emulating the circular arguments of an ignorant, superstitious people? Wow! Congratulations on that!

Now, I have a question for people to ask of themselves. Here it is: What are the chances that a Christian would loiter on a Christian apologist web-forum and taunt its members by mocking the Atheist position, just to "get under their skin"? Be honest, now.

Hmmm, call me crazy, but I say the odds are practically non-existent. In fact, I don't think you, whoever-the-f%ck you are, are a "Fake Christian" at all. In fact, in my experience, you sound much more like a typical Christian. But either way, your attempt at getting your jollies here is no skin off my nuts, at all. Trust me on that. The bottom line is---any and all "True Christian" on-lookers get their stupid-shit arguments exploited, and annihilated, right before their very eyes.

Have a marvelous day, all Christians!...real, and "fake", alike!

Anonymous said...

I see. So because I believe in something that you don’t, I have a personality disorder. Good luck with that logic.

For the record, you’ll notice that I responded to a direct question with my 1st post on this thread. I felt it important to try to help someone understand that with Faith in Christ comes peace, not fear. You and WM’s persistent ad hominem attacks with statements like “You've been asked to leave numerous times.” or “You sir, are a liar.” do nothing but demonstrate your weakness. You both should try to address me without a personal attack sometime and see how far you get with your debate.

By the way, it is true that I consider myself a wretched creature, but not a “retched” creature.

UnBlinded

Jim Arvo said...

Get some help, Marc. I'm not going to explain it to you again, as I'm finding it hard to believe you can be that dim.

Anonymous said...

More insults Jim, is this all you’re capable of communicating. More character attacks and insults? Is this what the religion of atheism teaches you?

Jim, you said: “If you are that retched, then admit that what you have to say carries no more weight than anybody else's opinion, and accept that we disagree with you.”

What makes you think that I don’t accept that you disagree with me? Do you think that every post I make at this site is directed at you? I think that it’s you that needs to accept that I disagree with you and not get so offended when I respond to someone’s question.

If you examine my 1st post, the one you also responded to with insults, I was addressing Cousin Ricky. Are you Cousin Ricky? Was there a reason for you to insult me?

No, there wasn’t and there hasn’t been. You despise me because you cannot debate with me. Your conscience hears the ring of truth but it hates to hear it because your eyes and ears have succumbed to the greatest fallacy of all time….the belief that there is no God. What chains are holding you back from falling into your creator’s arm! Don’t you know that He’s waiting for you every minute of every day. Just one honest word, one repentant plea and He’ll come to your aid.

Your time is running short Jim, don’t surrender to the lies. All atheists, please hear me, you’ve surrendered to lies, but it’s not too late.

I’ll pray for you,
UnBlinded

Astreja said...

Definitely Blinded: "[Jim Arvo's] and WM’s persistent ad hominem attacks with statements like 'You've been asked to leave numerous times'..."

(scratches head in puzzlement)

(double-checks definition of ad hominem, just in case)

(double-checks blog to verify that the Webmaster did, in fact, ask more than once for Marc to leave)

*ahem* I see no ad hominem here.

Marc, you have, in fact, been asked to refrain from posting on this site. Your refusal to do so *is* the proof that you are obsessed with us and with this site. My lay diagnosis: Scrupulosity with a side order of narcissistic personality disorder.

And you have a lot of fucking nerve to utter crap like "Just one honest word, one repentant plea and He’ll come to your aid."

How dare you purport to describe the words of once-devout ex-Christians as neither honest nor repentant! How dare you judge the innermost thoughts and character of people you barely know in cyberspace.

Your god was called many times, and did not deign to answer. We refuse to waste any more of our lives chasing a false hope driven by an equally false fear.

Go pray in your closet... Shake the dust from your feet... You know, like it says in the Bible?

webmdave said...

Unblinded,

In response to your post toward me: click here.

May the bright light of reason, rational thought, and reality one day pierce through your hard prison of mystical religious delusion. And may you one day learn how to honor and respect the requests of a property owner, regardless of that owner's position on your religion.

TheJaytheist said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
TheJaytheist said...

"If you examine my 1st post, the one you also responded to with insults, I was addressing Cousin Ricky."

Your first post? Oh..I see you mean your first post on this thred and not your first post on this website. Be careful there marc, someone might get the mistaken impression that you're NOT a troll.

Anonymous said...

Astreja,
The following are indeed character attacks.

Jim:
“Get some counseling, Marc. You've got a personality disorder at minimum.”
“This is such profound arrogance (self aggrandizing) that I see it as a sickness of some kind.”
“Get some help, Marc. I'm not going to explain it to you again, as I'm finding it hard to believe you can be that dim.”

WM:
“You sir, are a liar.”

Being asked to leave a public Web site that aims to promote a Christian apostasy will always be ignored. If the impact of this site was limited to the select group of atheists that have agreed to become members, I would certainly have left you by now or more correctly, I would never have joined. But this is not the case. This site permit posts from anyone that agrees with the sites philosophy or people that are inclined to agree. The latter is of greatest concern to me and I’ve explained numerous times the reason for my posts.

Change this site to “membership only” and I will leave you alone to your choices. Keep this site on the Internet and you know that Christians will post.

Regardless of the site’s direction, I will always hope for all of you that God’s grace touches your heart. It’s the only way you’ll ever penetrate the darkness of your choices.

Save them dear Jesus, Lord of everyone, save them before it’s too late…
UnBlinded

webmdave said...

So what you are saying, unblinded, is that you will not respect the wishes of anyone anywhere who has a public forum of any kind that criticizes your religion?

Do you mean you would attend and disrupt open meetings at open meeting halls, and if asked to leave, you would insist on your right to disrupt the meeting? Would you then insist that the meeting be "members only" because you, a disrupting person, are asked to leave?

Hmmm. Interesting.

Again, friend, I hope that one day rational thought will unblind your closed mind.

Please quit posting here.

Thanks.

Jim Arvo said...

Here's another quote I hope you add to your list...

Marc, you've proven dozens of times that dialog with you is pointless, and that you either cannot or do not wish to grasp the simplest of concepts no matter how many times they are spelled out for you. You have an unhealthy obsession with this site. Get some help, you are ill.

Anonymous said...

WM said: “Do you mean you would attend and disrupt open meetings at open meeting halls, and if asked to leave, you would insist on your right to disrupt the meeting?”

If it’s an open meeting and if I choose it, yes, I would attend. I would apply the same courtesy to my method of communication as is expected of all other participants. I would endeavor to debate the ideas being discussed and not attack the character of those that have ideas that differ from mine. Just as I try do here. I responded courteously to a direct question of faith being driven by fear and, as I often do, I expanded on my ideas that are rooted in my beliefs.

Jim said: “You have an unhealthy obsession with this site.”

Jim if you could do a count of postings by me and posting by you, I can assure you the numbers would show you to have an obsession. My passion and not my obsession, are with God and His gift of salvation. By the grace of God, this passion permeates my life and this site is just one of my means of sharing & discussing His gift.

Sincerely,
UnBlinded

Anonymous said...

Poor Unblinded, so many words, and yet, no evidence, just pure emotional appeal.

In order to debate, one needs to provide standards. I use facts as a standard for debate, not emotional appeal or opinion.

If you have a "fact" regarding your God UnBlinded, then present it, else; there is no debate, you're just whining.

TheJaytheist said...

Ummm. Marc, I think if the webmaster ever asked jim to stop posting, he would. That's something that I would do as well.

So it's not about how many times one posts here, It's about how many unwelcomed posts you have made and continue to make, that determines whether or not it's unhealthy. Do you see that? Do you recognize the difference?

Seek help.

freethinker05 said...

Marc, ole buddy, what is your real reason for posting your delusional B.S. on a site you are no longer welcomed?; My friend, I don't think you are going to convert anyone anytime to soon. Hell, I'm not that educated at all, yet, I know all of your posts and your beliefs are not going to convince me to accept your god delusion.

Instead of you doing god's work for him, why don't you ask your god to drop by my house and chat with me if he has the time? Marc, I honestly think that you know yourself that religion (of all kinds) are total B.S.

I truly believe that you are obsessed with this website, because you love to read what non-believers have to say, and it is causing your faith to crumble, and you know it. I'll admit that losing your faith can be devestating, and a bitter pill to swallow, but not to worry, your not going to die over it,(yet).

Is it so hard for you to face death without there possibly being no afterlife? I can answer that for you; yes, it is hard at times, just thinking of never seeing my loved ones again. That's why I cherish the time I have left on this earth enjoying my life and my family. So, just chill-out Marc, and enjoy the ride.

Best Regards, Roger

webmdave said...

WM said: “Do you mean you would attend and disrupt open meetings at open meeting halls, and if asked to leave, you would insist on your right to disrupt the meeting?”

Unblinded responded, "If it’s an open meeting and if I choose it, yes, I would attend...

That wasn't really my question. Let me rephrase it. If you attended such a meeting and were deemed a disruption by the organizers of the meeting, who then subsequently asked you to leave, several times, would you quietly leave, or would you stubbornly refuse, protesting that all such meetings should be closed meetings for members only?

On Christian websites that are open for public view, it's quite common for non-Christians to be deemed a disruption. While I personally have no problem with opposing opinions being discussed here, you have worn out your welcome by high-jacking posts in such a way that you become the center of attention and the previous discussion becomes derailed. That is how Internet trolls typically operate -- derailing discussions and becoming the center of attention. That, dear boy, is why you are considered an Internet troll and why I would like you to cease posting here.

I can bet this request as all my other requests to you will go unheeded. It seems apparent that fanaticism respects nothing outside of its own agenda.

May you one day regain self-control and the ability to honestly evaluate how your religion has warped your mind. To echo others, please get some help.

Astreja said...

Marc, may I remind you of the scheisse that you posted on My Ex-timony?

Posted May 27, 2007:

"What makes you so sure that image you saw had any validity at all?"

and,

"I don't think any of us (at least I don't) really believe that you're being selfless with these words."

This is why you are so unwelcome here, Marc. You are a vile, deluded, superstitious, arrogant hypocrite who comes on here specifically to belittle our personal experiences and promote your own pathetically narrow Pope-fucking view of reality.

This site is for us. Not for you. We, by our own life experiences, are entitled to discuss the pain that Christianity has caused in our lives. When you come here it reopens old wounds but ultimately serves as a reminder that leaving Christianity was indeed the right choice for us.

Jim Arvo said...

Marc, as nearly every post of your affirms, you do not grasp what others say. Whether this is intentional or not I do not know, but it hardly matters. It makes discussion with you pointless, and debate impossible. Couple that with your delusional sense of entitlement, and it makes for pathetic and inappropriate posts. I'm sure there's someone out there who can help you with whatever is haunting you; but it's not going to happen over the internet.

Anonymous said...

WM said: "If you attended such a meeting and were deemed a disruption by the organizers"

WM, I had answered a direct question that did not disrupt this thread. You might want to update your scenario to..."someone that is discussing the issues in a courteous manner and who is asked to leave because his ideas do not please the organizers".

Jim, I'm hearing you loud and repetitively clear. The question really is: Are you able to hear my words? I'm going to make a promise to you; I will not address you again, ever, unless you address me with basic human decency. If you behave like a child with petty insults, like each of your posts on this thread, you will be ignored.

It's time to grow up Jim, you have child to father.

God help that poor child!
UnBlinded

Jim Arvo said...

Marc, you are in no position to make demands. You've proven yourself incapable of dialog. You've shown repeatedly that you can only proselytize, which is not welcomed here. Your petty insults will get you nowhere. Get help.

Astreja said...

Marc, you have forfeited the right to being treated with decency.

You did indeed disrupt this thread with your preaching. And, right before our very eyes, you called Jim a child.

How fucking dare you.

You are one sick, deluded, narcissistic bastard. You are the one who needs to grow up... But I doubt that you are capable of making those changes. The prognosis for NPD is rather bleak. Unless you voluntarily undergo a stringent course of long-term psychiatric counselling, you'll probably still be a sick, deluded, narcissistic bastard on your deathbed...

...Seconds before you plunge into eternal unknowing and forget the only life you ever had.

May life bitchslap you into apostasy so that you can see that one, infinitely precious life from our side of the fence.

Anonymous said...

Hey UnBlinded, if we make a class-action post regarding your intellectual ineptitude, would you just stop responding to everyone altogether? I think we have found a solution for everyone.

Astreja said...

Judy, your Honour, sign Me up!

Anonymous said...

L.E.B.: "About that crazy Marc who wants to convert us all back to his nut cult of some version of Christianity (all religions are nut cults, really). Well, I wonder if he is just scared that we all are right, and there is no god and he's been basing his life on a lie."

Hey, L.E.B., I don't think Marc is afraid of not getting into heaven. It's apparent he believes he's the fertile right nut of a God.

Marc believes that this site poses a threat to his well-deserved and earned reward. The reward obviously, of Marc finally getting an eternal audience in heaven, where no one can escape his most erudite offerings.

Marc, would you kindly quit marketing yourself in Heaven, you are causing the price of Hell tickets to increase in value.

Big Daddy (who can't see the difference between Heaven or Hell, if a person is to be exposed to sub-par IQs for all eternity).

webmdave said...

An equivocating, stubborn, troll wrote, "WM, I had answered a direct question that did not disrupt this thread..."

Unblinded, you have done nothing but disrupt this and other threads on this site since you first wandered in.

No matter, you've answered the question I asked regarding your attendance at public meetings. You would refuse to leave under any circumstances and would have to be forcibly escorted out the building, undoubtedly followed by legal action.

So be it.

webmdave said...

So, Unblinded, how's that IPhone working out for you up there in Ottawa? Hmm?

TheJaytheist said...

Sgt. Sacker: "Jill, this is sergeant Sacker. Listen to me. We've traced the call... it's coming from inside the house."

Anonymous said...

Unblinded Said:
"Save them dear Jesus, Lord of everyone, save them before it’s too late…
UnBlinded"

What Unblinded really means is:

"Save me, and my doubting mind dear Jesus, because I am here seeking truth because I doubt you on Lord, and I'm too afraid to admit it to these atheists".

That is what is really going on with Unblinded.

He's too scared to admit it because he is afraid that his God might toss him into hell for doubting him.

Unblinded Said:
"My passion and not my obsession, are with God and His gift of salvation."

As for God's "So Called Gift".

God's gift has attachments Unblinded. If it were truly a gift he would not have the following attachments added to it:

"Accept my son Jesus, and believe that he is the only way or I will allow you to be torched in hell".

That sir is called a threat.

When I give my children a gift, and if they refuse it, it does kind of hurt I will admit, however regardless of how I feel, I will not pour gasoline on their bodies and set them on fire just because they refused to accept my gift.

Nor would I allow them to set themselves on fire, even if they made the choice to do so.

Your idea of "God's free gift" is twisted like your mind is.

You have a mental illness Unblinded. In case you didn't know, christianity is also another form of "Schizophrenia".

Sincerely,
Black Swede

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
resonate11 said...

Black Swede wrote "...christianity is also another form of 'Schizophrenia'."

Yes, this seems to be true in a non clinical sense. To be a Christian, one absolutely must compartmentalize everything in ones' life into that which is true verses that which is biblically "true".

Morality, for example, must be split into the natural morality they feel deep in their bodies--slavery is repugnant--and the morality of the bible--slavery is acceptable. Or, stoning is inhumane verses stoning is deserved.

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