Bathwater and the Baby
Sent in by KW
In all senses of the word, I am a "Christian". (Yipes!)
I am a respected man in my church, I have a thriving buisness, I have a wonderful "Christian" family.
But I don't like what being a Christian has become. So I have a bit of empathy for your site. I find it interesting and insightful.
I think you all are a bit angry, but you have a right to be. Somewhere along the line, you became bitter and agnostic because these "Christians" continue to do the things that pissed you off in the first place. Well, they piss me off too. But human nature is what it is.
There is a huge gulf between Christianity (as we know it), and having a personal connection with the Main Man. That's a personal issue.
But there IS something to it, and I think it would be unwise to completely throw out the baby with the bathwater.
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In all senses of the word, I am a "Christian". (Yipes!)
I am a respected man in my church, I have a thriving buisness, I have a wonderful "Christian" family.
But I don't like what being a Christian has become. So I have a bit of empathy for your site. I find it interesting and insightful.
I think you all are a bit angry, but you have a right to be. Somewhere along the line, you became bitter and agnostic because these "Christians" continue to do the things that pissed you off in the first place. Well, they piss me off too. But human nature is what it is.
There is a huge gulf between Christianity (as we know it), and having a personal connection with the Main Man. That's a personal issue.
But there IS something to it, and I think it would be unwise to completely throw out the baby with the bathwater.
To monitor comments posted to this topic, use
.
Comments
under the law I have come as one under the law, in order to win those who are under the
law — not that I myself am under the law. To those who live without the law I have come
as one without the law, in order to win those who are without the law — not that I am
really under no law in relation to God, for I am bound by the law of Christ. To those who
are weak I have made myself weak, so as to win the weak; in fact, I have become all things
to all people, in order that, one way or another, I may rescue some of them."
Yes, we've heard it all before.
Go spread your poison elsewhere, you hypocrite...
Gramps
Over time, the more I looked into this "something to it", the less I found. If there were a God as you postulate one, there would be some evidence of it. There is none.
The Bible is largely mythology, contradictory in many places, whose lineage can be traced to preceding mythologies, with many claims denied by serious historical study.
I challenge you to distinguish your "personal connection to the Main Man" from your childhood perceptions of the boogieman in the basement, and from your feelings under hypnosis or in waking dreams or other hallucinatory experiences common to humans.
It is all man made delusions caused by numerous reasons but none of them being truth supplied with evidence.
I can love christians as they are no different the scientologist, Muslims or people that believe in UFO's or other forms of paranormal. It's all the same, humans using their imagination to deceive themselves into thinking they are more important in the cosmos then they really are.
Take care and have a great day.
The Main Man does not exist. If he exists, then Santa Claus exists! Also, Mickey Mouse exists! and Pinocchio too!
Danny Tuason
Thanks for the condescension...
Bible major, twelve years of full time ministry in a conservative church environment, life totally given over to following the "main man"...
Trust me - we get it...
Still a big icy patch of bullshit. But thanks anyway.
Spoomonkey
The better metaphor is the little boy digging in the manure pile thinking there's got to be a pony in there somewhere.
So yes, I am angry. I'm angry at the pain my children will have to go through when their parents eventually divorce, and I am angry at the hell this is all putting my wife through.
I'm also grateful. Grateful to HAVE children, for starters.
And the thing is, I realized that I could remain a Christian and simply cherry-pick around the gay stuff...that would be no different than what EVERY christian does when it comes to the bible. Instead, I studied and studied and studied only to discover that it's simply not true. So whether I am angry or not is beside the point. I can't go back now, my brain won't let me. If I somehow miraculously turned straight, I've realized it wouldn't matter. I still couldn't go back to Christianity because I know longer believe it to be TRUE.
No, you're not. Every single person on the surface of this planet has a different definition for what a 'Christian' is, and the same thing goes for 'God'. No two are alike, and even though people have similar definitions, they will ALWAYS be DIFFERENT. So, no, you are NOT a "Christian" "in all senses of the word."
Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot . . . each and every 'Christian' with their own definition is the SOLE definition of what it means to be 'Christian'. You were incorrect when you said that there is a golf between Christianity and the "Main man," but there IS a gulf between Christians.
Throughout history, Christians have killed more Christians than anyone else. This is because Christianity is, at its very heart, an evil and greedy religion that promotes ONE GOAL: avoiding Hell. There is nothing good or wholesome about this. When you promote an ideal that endorses saving oneSELF over everyone ELSE, the result is only going to be something like Christianity. This is why Christians have a natural tendency towards elfishness, such as your characteristics of being a "respected man" in your church, and having a "thriving business," all the while having a "wonderful" family.
So, KW, we come full circle again. You are not a Christian by others' definitions, and yet you are because you are EXACTLY like other Christians, whom you no doubt claim are NOT Christians because they are . . . wait for it . . . not Christian like you.
Makes perfect sense.
"I am a respected man in my church, I have a thriving buisness, I have a wonderful "Christian" family."
I dealt with this trivial nonsense already.
"But I don't like what being a Christian has become. So I have a bit of empathy for your site. I find it interesting and insightful."
Now you're going to tell us that we left Christianity because of Christians, and not Christianity. KW, if you actually had any 'empathy' for this site, whatever the fuck THAT means, you would know, by the ex-timonials alonee, that not a single damn one of us left Christianity because of Christians.
"I think you all are a bit angry, but you have a right to be. Somewhere along the line, you became bitter and agnostic because these "Christians" continue to do the things that pissed you off in the first place. Well, they piss me off too. But human nature is what it is."
Holy shit. I'm a Prophet. Where my hoes at?
KW, let me reiterate: nobody left Christianity because of Christians. I knew a bodybuilder who left the competitive bodybuilding world because of the politics of it all. But guess what? He continued to lift weights. I know plenty of people like that. They continue to do what they love DESPITE the people. Why, then, does the same thing not apply to people who leave Christianity? Because nobody actually leaves a thing because of people, and then stops doing what they like, that's why.
One more thing, KW: there is nothing to Christianity that is worthwhile that cannot be found elsewhere, and better. The only unique contribution that Christianity has made to human society is making people feel like shit. And people feel like shit WITHOUT you and your so-called "Christian" life, thank you ever so fucking much.
The people are merely the carriers of a meme. A highly destructive, life-denying meme.
As for that baby... I think we've had our fill of anthropomorphisation, thanks. As much as religions like to present us with gods in our own image, I see no great benefit in personifying the great unknowns of life. Doing so just makes it that much harder to dig down to the truth.
Yeah, there "IS" something; it's called Nature. It would be unwise to completely throw out Nature/Reality due to the influence of religious belief.
Uh, why are you talking to us like we're children?
KW, just take a moment out from your thriving proof-reading "buisness" to consider this: A lot of us here are not happy with what has happened to democracy in our countries. And yet I have yet to hear any of them discredit democracy itself. If it were the institutions of Xtianity that drove them away, or other Xtians and their behaviours, wouldn't you expect a lot of the people who aren't happy with the state of their democracy to have started becoming (non-constitutional) monarchists, or fascists, or some other form of political organisation-ists?
But they haven't. Because democracy per se is not their problem. They might not like what's become of some of their democratic institutions, or much care for some of their fellow democrats, but they see the value of that scheme of social organisation.
No, it's not the other Xtians that soured them on Xtianity, and it wasn't the churches. It was the thing itself.
Christianity is simply wrong.
"Somewhere along the line, you became bitter and agnostic because these "Christians" continue to do the things that pissed you off in the first place"
---
KW,
I certainly cannot speak for anyone else and their own reasons for becoming agnostics/atheists, but I sure know my own.
The behavior of xtians in general, never had a single thing to do with my realizing that god didn't exist. For me, such things are totally independent of each other.
While I could site a handful of times that some xitan tried to convert me to their own particular brand of Christianity, and I did indeed find that intrusive, that would have been my emotional reaction to someone "PREACHING AT ME".
Preaching at me; about ANYTHING, would cause the same reaction in me, as I think it would a lot of people.
Regardless of how I might have felt about some xtians pushing their beliefs upon me, would have had zero effect on whether I thought a real god existed out there or not.
My eventual conclusion that god couldn't exist (xtian god or any other), had nothing to do with any emotions in me, but everything to do with using my HEAD to see that he has no proof of his existence, nor is needed to explain nature etc..
Then if you add-in the so called god-documents that portray these various gods and realize how GREATLY flawed they are and how "HUMAN" they truly are in their nature, well, their really is no logical means one can support god being a reality. Especially one, that not only created the entire universe, but one that deals with people on a day-to-day basis.....as all xtians claim their god does.
The things that xtians do on this earth, such as influencing politics and trying to dumb-down science, do make me angry at times, but again, this has nothing to do with forming my opinion as to whether god is real or not. It does however form an opinion in me about the nature of the BLINDED god-worshippers and the power they sometimes reap over innocent others.
Therefore, whether some xtian in my life ticks me off with their preaching's at me, or if they come off in the nicest possible way towards me that they could muster up, it would have nothing to do with forming my opinion of whether a creator god exist, or doesn't.
For me, these things are very distinct and separate issues.
Hope that helped?
AtheistToothFairy
As transelation said, to claim yourself as a "Christian" this gives you (and other self-claiming xtains) an aire (a perception) of authority (in your mind) and other self-boasting xtains to look down on others as you deem us not as worthy or as clever as you've allowed yourself to believe that you have become, just because you have been convinced by special pleading and under emotional duress from the threat of an imaginary hell, that the bible is true.
You must relize that Christianity would not have a chance to survive one day without the threat of an imaginary hell.
Jesus came to spread God's love onto the world through his sacrifice of his own life, but if you do not believe in him, he will gladly send you to hell.
Does that statement above make any sense to you? Where's the love portrayed? Threatened Love?
A man sent to earth full of love for his fellow man, yet he has a place in hell awaiting those who do not believe in him, where's the fucking love?
There are some people (millions or more) on this earth not in a position to believe in Jesus, mentally retarded people, deaf, dumb and blind people, people of different cultures and language.
The bible was transported over to this continent by the self-righteous white supremacists racists invaders.
The bible is not a universal truth, it must be passed down from human to human, based on emotional fear of the unknown and the fear of death.
The bible is all based upon make believe and imaginary pretend, you're pretending to be a Christian because it is presently accepted in society as being honorable to stake such claim.
Had the white supremacists invaders brought over the Qu'ran with them, it would now be perceived in society as being honrable claiming to be a Muslim.
You're just mimicking and pretending what you've been told as being accepted as one of the good ole boys, so you'll look like you fit in, your belief has nothing to do with reality itself and you know it. Truth hurts doesn't it?
In my case you have it a bit wrong, I didn't leave Christianity because I was angry with other Christians, I left because I too didn't like what being a Christian meant.
To have remained a Christian I would become the type of person I dislike the most, a hypocrite. I stopped believing in the Christian God, Jesus and the Bible after researching various denominations.
I used my brain while doing the research which is the worst possible thing that any Christian can do when looking at their religion. I got the stuff the church doesn't bother to feed you and what the church glosses over. Just try reading the Bible outside of Bible Study (Bible for Dummies/Cliff Notes) and you just might get it.
I did not have the same experiences as a lot of people on this forum have had but after hearing what they have gone through I do get angry, angry at an establishment that allows bigotry and hatred with warm fuzzies.
And I do get angry with people who make a judgement about me without even talking with me or without knowing me just because that's what their church tells them.
I was Agnostic first, the bitterness came years later, guess you could say with the advent of the internet, I see and hear a lot more now.
Self-congratulations, at that, eh?
Someone looking for the truth and meaning of life in religion is like the little boy digging through a big pile of manure, because he's convinced there must be a pony in there somewhere.
I'm not angry at xians. I just stopped digging.
I mean if he thinks being a respected member of a church and not society as a whole and having a wonderful family that is wonderful because of their fear of Hell is all he aspires for then good for him and eventhough he already gave himself a pat on the back, I thought I'd give him one too.
Frankly, there was a day when saying you were a Christian got you sent to the Gulag.
In view of the seismic shift on th e horizon, wiht the New Atheism...just the Old Atheism repackaged...that day may welll come again.
My parents came from a country that was officially atheistic, so I know what to expect.
And a lot of us plan to be ready, this time.
"Frankly, there was a day when saying you were a Christian got you sent to the Gulag.
In view of the seismic shift on th e horizon, wiht the New Atheism...just the Old Atheism repackaged...that day may welll come again.
My parents came from a country that was officially atheistic, so I know what to expect.
And a lot of us plan to be ready, this time."
Have you forgotten the days when, if you said you were a freethinker, that got you tortured on the rack, or even burned at the stake?
Was it a problem that some nations in the last century were "officially" atheist? Yes, just as much as problems with states which are officially Muslim, Christian or officially anything. Religion does not belong in politics and vice versa. That's why separation of church and state is a wonderful idea which our founding fathers, in their wisdom, instituted.
You are, in fact, creating a straw man fallacy be implying that non-believers want to make atheism "official." That's the last thing we want. We want freedom of and freedom from religion!
We remember the crusades, the inquisition, the Nazis, and the KKK. This time, we're ready.
I am angry that it was all a big lie. I am angry at the xtian jerks I run into from time to time. I am angry at the xtian jerks that tell my kid the same bullshit that I was told about god. I do have every right o be angry and will continue to be so as long as the xtian jerks continue to act like jerks.
Kinda like you just did.
Chucky jesus, I was gettin' all worked up with a scathing reply to Luann, then you come along and steal my thunder. Good job!
I am a respected man in my community, I have a thriving business, despite being godless. I have a wonderful family. My children have not been indoctrinated into a certain faith because that choice should be theirs once they have learned and lived enough to actually make that choice for themselves.
I think you all are a bit angry, but you have a right to be. Somewhere along the line, you became angry because you were given your faith without choice and logic finally compelled you to realize that the probability of that faith being true was infinitesimally small. But human nature is what it is, and we should be kind to those who foolishly mislead us.
There is a huge gulf between Christianity, and having any sense of intellectual honesty and cognitive integrity. How one deals with the misspent energy is a personal issue.
Would it be unwise to completely throw out the baby with the bathwater? Can one do so once they realize there is no baby, and the bathwater is polluted with 2000 years of apologetics and lies?
That's a keeper, I luv that one.
Christianity is a form of insanity. No, I don't think it makes people be better people. In fact often it makes them less humane. Take Mother Theresa for instance. Here she is supposedly doing God's work among the dying and receiving lots of money from people wanting to help. What does she do though? She gives them a cot and a chamber pot in the middle of a room that everyone shares. They are instructed to stay on the cot until they are dead. She doesn't let their family or friends come to comfort them. No, she thinks suffering is how one gets closer to God. That was her mission. She spent her money on creating more nunneries, not on easing the suffering of the poor, sick and dying. That my friend is Christian love.
I am not angry at Christians. I am angry at myself for having fell for it.
And even though I didn't like the Christians very much, the person I liked least was me. I didn't enjoy the sight of the person the religion made of me. If anything, I feel pity for you and yours. Believing in fairy tales is a terrible thing.
Obviously, you stopped here, didn't read anything, and went your way to never come back. So I am writing this for any other Christian who may come around.
nice going there,
HYPOCRITE!!!
SOME can be aggressive.
SOME can be delusional, complete removed from this world with their mental bags packed for Heaven.
SOME can be very delusional and believe that God made them president.
SOME lack the abilities for personal introspection. (No, the Devil didn’t make you do it. You just fucked up).
SOME are frustrating.
SOME are racists.
SOME are hypocrites.
SOME are very easily liked.
SOME are very easily loved. (Like my sister).
SOME are not likable not because they are Christian but because they are just not likable.
SOME are not likeable and not worth knowing because they are irritating, aggressive, delusional, racist, hypocritical, Christian pricks.
But NONE are worth hating.
Bussel spouts are worth hating.
Please don't feed the trolls.
Thanks.
Have you ever really read the whole Bible from front to back and didn't you ever paid attention to all the murder, racism, sexism, vulgarity, etc. in it? Just read Song of Solomon and 1 & 2 Peter. These are short books, but you'll see what kind of God you really worship.
"Throw the baby out with the bathwater".
Oh, boy... Would that be the Pweshush Widdle Bay-Bay Jeebus?
As has been pointed out already, there *IS* no baby in the bathwater.
When I saw that, I thought: "Great - someone like me who has to keep up a charade - and has inner turmoil." But... oh well. I visit this sight, not because I'm intrigued, but to read accounts from fellow deconverts. I'm the well-respected Ph.D. in my church who can spout all the apologist's rhetoric, who everyone sees as "the man" at the juncture of spiritual/intellectual battles, who used to take on all comers that challenged the faith. To quite a few of my students I have been a spiritual mentor - in fact, I played in a praise band and taught a Sunday School class today! I love my wife more than life itself and I helped her get her spiritual house in order back when; and now look at me - to borrow from your quote - for all practical purposes, I'm a Christian in every sense of the word - except in the belief category (yipes!). I don't want to hurt anyone, but I have crossed the divide (one day I'll testify here) - I have told one person since April ( 2 counting my wife, but she feels I'll come around. I win our infrequent faith/reason arguments, but I hurt afterward) - Your post was a mockery and it displayed a lack of understanding of all the interesting stuff you feel you read. I wrote this because this is where your post should have led - when ther's a fork in the road, take it... Liniasmax
"Great - someone like me who has to keep up a charade - and has inner turmoil"
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Liniasmax,
I'm looking VERY forward to seeing your own testimony !!!
I sometimes wonder if the 'ritual' of one's Christianity is similar to how many of us feel about our jobs. While we may not be totally satisfied in our jobs, we get very cozy with the familiarity of it, including the friends we've made at the job, and giving it up for something new is unsettling, so we just stay-put.
Obviously if one has had a career for a long time, of being a priest or minster, the loss of faith would leave one with two choices.
1. Find a whole new career to pursue, which would be tough for many priest and minsters, as their lives revolved around religion and not much else usually. That aside, it still can be tough to change occupations for anyone.
2. If they choose to stay-put, then like you are doing, they have to fake their faith.
That might be easy for the crooks of religion to do, but I have to think it would create a huge conflict in most preachers, to preach what they no longer believe in.
So how many preachers, and higher members of churches (like yourself), have lost their faith but they continue the ritual they are accustomed to; because they are not only cozy in that ritual, but they don't want to hurt those Christians around them. I'm also betting that many would fear the loss of the friends they have gained, and might even fear being hated if the truth were known etc..
I can relate much to your wife's comment, about you 'coming around'.
My own is convinced that some day I'll 'see the light' and join her in her god beliefs.
(P.S. To Xtians: Not A Chance!!)
Also, like you say about winning debates with your wife but "hurting afterwards", it's surely a conflict with no easy resolution.
The intellect part of you wants to show her that it's all a 'man-made' fable with no basis in fact, but your heart knows it would devastate her if she were to lose the security-blanket of her religion and her god.
If you're like me, then you toss out some occasional food-for-thought to her, but never continue on; to destroy all she believes and holds-dear.
I think that for yourself, much of your social life is probably made up from friends of your church, as well as the social functions the church provides. It's all based on a central theme of faith in the bible god, so if one removes that central theme from one's mind and heart, then one now has to decide if the social benefits are important enough to force one to fake the faith.
I'm SURE that many church goers do indeed fake this faith, because they enjoy the social aspects of their church far to much to dismiss it from their day-to-day lives.
I'm curious about the "apologist's rhetoric" you have used to support xtian beliefs.
I'm assuming that not so long ago you believed what you were saying was true and that non-believers had to be wrong etc.?
Was your faith broken because you suddenly started to realize that some of the apologetics you were using, had started to make little sense to you?
Was there one thing in particular that opened your eye's wide?
I guess the big question for all of us here who gave up our religion is; do we find something else to take it's place in our social lives, and if so, then what?
How many other social avenues can provide the same type of emotional satisfaction that many claim to get from their religions. As I said elsewhere, it's truly like an addiction to some.
For many, it's truly like starting all over again and I'm sure that comes with a bit of fear for most who would consider it?
Again, hope to see your testimony real soon !!!
AtheistToothFairy
I agree with others that the majority of us nonbelievers have no problem with christians, it's their beliefs and their willingness to browbeat the world into submission we have a problem with. However, browbeating does beat the heck out of murdering for your beliefs, as some religions do.
Anyway, thanks to many of you here I am relieved to know I am not alone. Jim Earl
Is it grace? Jodo-shinshu Buddhism runs circles around Xianity as far as grace goes.
How much bathwater can you throw out and still have Christianity?
Apparently your only purpose is to spew hatred because you've been made to look like a fool in front of the church and now you resent people whom have enough forsight and wisdom to realize that they have been taken to the cleaners and that all religions are just a bunch of bunk, and you got sold a bill of goods, mostly a sack filled with shit eating lies.
Now, go run along you self-righteous prick!
Missy
I, too, have to live a charade. I grew disenchanted with Xtianity a long time ago, but still believe there are universal principles of life that the people around me need to be taught. I am, for all intents and purposes, now a Buddhist who sees "Jesus" (not even close to his real name, BTW) as a teacher of the same noble truths that were expounded upon by Buddha. No need to believe in a substitutionary death to pay for sins I could not help but commit... instead, living life in the pursuit of the greater good of others. That is one of the principles that Jesus taught, and I don't need all the dominionist/hierarchical hocus-pocus of the Roman church and her retarded protestant children.
That being said, however, financially and in terms of living arrangements, I have no choice at all but to teach what I can, leave out the shit I can't stomach, and wait for a better opportunity to come along.
Might sound arrogant, but I think you'd all love my story as well...
Raised in fundy church
Former Bible college student
Worship leader/musician
Preacher
Sunday School teacher
finally free intellectually and personally, but struggling to find a way out situationally.
Stay tuned. More to come.