Hey Dave,
It doesn't make any sense how you think that you've figured out god is fake through your little mind. It seems like you were offended that god does whatever he wants to. Your life has always been centered around yourself, there for it definitely would be illogical to think that something bigger is out there right? Let's put all bible reference aside, and look at what is happening in the church now adays alright.
Healings are really taking place. You might ask me to prove my point, but i think you will be able to find some legit testimonies if you did the research, or cared to go to some conferences. Okay so now healings aside, and miracles aside.(since for some reason you deny their exsistence) There are people like John Paul Jackson, Julie Meyers, James Goll, Barbie Breathitt, and alot more other leaders in the real ministry of dreams and visitations. They constantly have these vivid dreams, and visitations into heaven, and even into hell. And it's happening more and more to people these days.(just like prophesied)But Somehow as random as they are, they always tie together with each other. Very intense visitations. Please tell me, are all of these people crazy? I mean there has to be some scientific reason for it, right?
Are you familiar with the kansas city prayer movement? if not you should really learn about it. It's a life style of intimacy with God, which is the foundation of our life. There is 24/7 worship going on in Kansas city. Like 2000 something leaders there, Not to mention soo many people coming in and out. They are so sure that god is real, that they are willing to lay all their desires down, and follow this unpopular path. They all havve had, and are having experience with God. So many people are willing to lay down their lives for something you feel doesn't even exsist. I don't know if you have ever been to an actually prophetic worship service, but it's quite moving. Someone says a word that there is a particular problem, like some kind of sickness, or problem in the body. The person comes up, gets prayed for, then is healed. It's just amazing. Like for example; I saw this woman who actually had a bone across the top of her foot, got prayed for, bam. it wasn't there any more. And don't worry, i'm not lying.
Surely something strikes in your mind, that there is more to this world you don't know about. Well hopefully that was an obvious statement. Does it seem to you that you''ve figured out the big secret. Christianity is false! I say that's an almost true statement. The church has fallen so much from it's first love. The catholics are just weird, and out of wack on their beliefs, the prodistants denominations mostly contradict parts of the bible. And i think that if you're gonna believe in it, you should at least believe in the whole thing.. Christianity as a whole is a sunday service. Obviously a small group or two, and maybe a wendesday night service if you're lucky. For some reason every one misses the fact that this life is just a counterfeit of the real one. We lose sight of a life style, and leave it more to rules and regulations. It's sickening reallly. I don't want to get into whats happening in the real church, because you obviously don't care.
I just wanted to try and prove you wrong :)
God is trancending, yet his ways are always just. I just stated so much proof that God is acually real. And i didn't even go into prophesy! You should learn to trust in something that is miraculous, because you'll never know why some things happen like they do. BUT I DO KNOW, that he has got it under control.
Now you probably are laughing at me, or something like that. Because even when people were raised from the dead; the pharasies always found a way to hate jesus. I think It's amazing how he performed miracles and showed them who he was, by word and sight, but they still said it was impossible that he was the son of God. It just shows how decieving deception is. WEll now that i've got that off my chest, i can finally go to bed. I hope you learn to trust and be grateful, because the day of the Lord is coming quickly.
lovve yaaa,
Preston B.
These letters were published between January 2001 and February 2010. To view recent posts, go to The Main Blog at ExChristian.Net
57 comments:
What proof?
"I just stated so much proof that God is acually real."
Really???? Is there a large chunk of text missing, or something? I read this through several times and didn't see proof of anything except Preston's gullibility.
I'm sure you could find some legit testimonies by Muslims that have prayed to Allah and been healed, or helped out in some miraculous way too.
Thanks Preston, I needed a good laugh today. Your entire letter speaks of your serious lack of mental maturity and intellectual honesty. Maybe one day you can shake off your rose-colored glasses and ''see the light'' of reality.
Preston says he has given us "so much proof" but yet his message contains nothing at all that would lead a skeptic back to Christianity. He has posted on here before, so he is fully aware that the regular visitors to this site need real evidence. Yet, he has provided nothing, even knowing there are souls at stake.
Could it be that he is deliberately posting this stuff because he knows it will only alienate skeptical ex-christians and ensure their descent into hell?
Could it be that Preston is actually the anti-Christ?
Preston B. honest now. Surely you do not believe all the hogwash you just typed. For one, it seems that you should not write late at night. Your thoughts seem incoherent. No, you have not stated any proff of the existence of God. You're merely attempting to proliferate your fairy tale of what you believe about a God that exist. Keep sucking on that which makes you feel good, but for goodness sake, open your eyes and see the light. Where is your God?
By the way, you post was rather funny. I laughed all the way while reading it. Credulity rules the day.
Ah, Preston, you sound like you are SO desperately trying to prove yourself to everyone...why? If you really believe in xianity, then why should you care what the rest of us at this blog site think? Sounds more like your desperately trying to hang on to your faith because you have some doubts. While I've seen things like you have mentioned, I've also seen them done by people of other faiths as well. So, what you are refering to isn't exclusive to xianity.
Oh yeah, Preston, just fyi....the Catholic church was THE "christian" church for over a 1000 yrs. Prostesantism has only been around for about 500 yrs., and that because an English king decided he wanted to be able to get divorced when it suited him. Dude, go and study the history of this crap...and that doesn't mean exclusively that "holy bible" you seem to put so much stock in. I would suggest 'Holy Blood, Holy Grail', and 'Secrets of the Knights Templar' as well. I only hope your reading skills are better than your spelling. Use a spell checker dude.
Preston, Lets just close all the hospitals and fire all the nurses and doctors and close all the nursing homes, ok?
And if we all pray hard enough, we can stop all crime and lets go ahead and let all the prisoners out because they will surely have a change of heart by the time God hears our prayers, most of them are already Christians anyway, ok?
Preston did you ever hear of the Reverand Jim Jones or David Koresh or Heaven's Gate Cult?
Preston you're just a few steps away from leaving this world, not going up, you're soon going down six feet under as soon as you drink the kool-aid at the Kansas City prayer movement.
I do not understand why people want to believe in fairytales.
Can someone please explain this to me?
Anyone interested in the 24/7 prayer movement can quickly become familiar with it here: 24-7 Prayer Movement
Notice that holding 24/7 prayer vigils is nothing new in Christianity -- the Moravians maintained their's for 100 years.
Everyone's life is centered around himself, and there's no reason to argue or even fret about it. It's just sort of a code phrase meaning "I am better than you." Dismissed.
God is a fairy tale you moron.
Oh dear, Preston. If I had to guess: high school convert finds acceptance at last within the walls of a local religious movement. Not much education but a strong desire to be seen as more knowledgeable and important than he is. Taking the easy way out by living in a fantasy that makes him feel special and avoiding the hard work that goes into living in the real world. Yup.
you took that one line and made it the title? I wasn't being mean, i was just stating how life is. Do you not think it's true that you as a human being feel like your life means alot to you? It's how we're wired. I wasn't saying that you in particular are self centered, rather than me, because i know i am very self centered too. And about the little mind thing; i was merely comparing your mind to god. it's no big deal.
You say there is no proof, but ya'll still can't explain the things that happen supernaturally. You all just covered my questions, with saying i'm gullible, and immature.
Why are you so blind to the world of the supernatural? Do all of ya'll seriously think the world just appeared out of no where? Scientists can't even explain 96% of what space is made up of! and the universe is huge! The complexity of where our earth is located in distance to the sun is perfect! Life just wouldn't make any sense if humans were the center of it all. That means that tiny organisms are our gods because they created us. They evolved into life as we know it. Believing that there is no god is just as crazy as believing there is one!
So can i ask you, and you answer honestly, with all all of the logic in your mind..
Do you really think there is no greater force at work? with all the complexity of the world, all the inner meaning.. That our world just came to be, and will always be?
reston,
You sound very young to me. I'm wondering whether you have ever heard of "visitations" reported by followers of other religions, or reports within your own religion that you find questionable. How do you go about checking them out? In fact, how does the church decide upon what is a bona fide miracle and what is not? Do they not look into it very carefully? Why do you suppose they need to do that? Curious, no?
You said "Like for example; I saw this woman who actually had a bone across the top of her foot, got prayed for, bam. it wasn't there any more. And don't worry, i'm not lying."
Can you explain exactly what you saw? Was there a physician present who could vouch for this amazing physical transformation? Have you seen anybody regain a missing limb through prayer? Have you seen anybody with Down Syndrome cured through prayer? Are you aware of any video documentation of such things? In fact, here are a couple of links from YouTube that may strengthen your faith; please tell me what you think of this, this, this, and this. Pretty amazing stuff, huh?
jim, i don't even want to go into it. You obviously think i'm crazy and immature. Even if i said there was a physician present, and reported an online documentation, with pictures and stuff.. You would still not believe in god. it's the truth. So what would be the point of stating truths i've seen, when you're always going to ask for proof, and the proof alone wouldn't make you think god exsists.
Because your mind will always get in the way, you've already made your decision. You can't show me videos of people who aren't operating in the healing power. what does that prove? it proves they are stupid.
jim, i wish we could be on the same level here, But i just don't understand how you can bring up random videos and think that i'm going to take your argument seriously.
Yes Preston, our mind does get in the way. I'm so thankful of that little fact. Otherwise, I'd still be like you!
Preston: "You obviously think i'm crazy and immature."
I didn't mean to imply that you were crazy.
Preston: "Even if i said there was a physician present, and reported an online documentation, with pictures and stuff.. You would still not believe in god. it's the truth."
Now how do you know that Preston? Really. What I see is everybody passing the buck. I've heard that very same excuse many times before--i.e. "Why should I try to back up what I say? You won't believe me anyway." If that's your answer, then please do explain why I should give your words any more credibility than the lunatic who thinks we're being invaded by aliens.
Preston: "Because your mind will always get in the way, you've already made your decision."
You know absolutely nothing about what I've decided. You have nothing to offer, so you blame me for being skeptical. Right. That really helps your case a lot, doesn't it?
Preston: "You can't show me videos of people who aren't operating in the healing power. what does that prove? it proves they are stupid."
Yes! He's got it!! Now, tell me Preston. What makes these people "stupid"?
Preston: "jim, i wish we could be on the same level here, But i just don't understand how you can bring up random videos and think that i'm going to take your argument seriously."
Have you produced anything that is even marginally more compelling? (I'll answer that one for you: No.) You haven't even attempted to explain how you separate "real" miracles from "fake" miracles. You agree that there are lots of "stupid" people who believe in "fake" miracles, don't you? (Do you see the connection with the YouTube videos now?) If you want anybody to believe you, you need to demonstrate that you have the capacity for some critical discernment. Otherwise, you are simply one of them, are you not?
Looking forward to your reply.
so does anyone want to answer my question i asked?
jim it wouldn't be worth it, answering all of your questions, because you know very well where it will end up.
I just want to know if you can look at the universe, if you can look at life as we know it, and say that there is no greater force at work. can you?
I'm not going into this Catfish in a barrel and 12-bore contest, simply because the flu is upon me...
However, Kudos to Preston B for hanging round and duking it out...
yours in a puddle of snot,
Grandpa
Preston: "jim it wouldn't be worth it, answering all of your questions, because you know very well where it will end up."
No, I do not know where it will end up. Why can you not address my question? How can you tell a "real" miracle from a "fake" miracle? If you don't want to even attempt to answer that, then I have little choice but to conclude that you are credulous in the extreme.
Preston: "I just want to know if you can look at the universe, if you can look at life as we know it, and say that there is no greater force at work. can you?"
I'll be happy to answer your question, but not in it's current form, which is far too ambiguous. If by "greater force at work" you mean some invisible all-powerful entity that thinks and plans and designs (aka god), then YES, I can say that I doubt very very very much that such a thing exists, as I have never in my life seen one tiny shred of evidence for her. On the other hand, I have seen mountains of truly abysmal arguments for such a being, thousands of atrociously credulous believers, and hundreds of contradictory religions. Add to this the compelling evidence I've seen for such beliefs being a product of the brain, and for religions being invented through mythical embellishment, and I have very good reasons for treating her as nonexistent. Of course, I will humbly admit that I was wrong in my assessment if compelling evidence is brought to my attention, or errors exposed in my reasons for rejecting the existing evidence an not credible.
On the other hand, if by "greater force at work" you mean myriad things I do not understand, then OF COURSE I admit that. I do not understand how the fundamental forces can be unified. I do not understand many of the implications of quantum mechanics. I do not understand how the first living organisms arose. I do not understand why there are ten-thousand species of beetles. I do not understand why it is so difficult to prove that P != NP. I could go on all day. However, NOT knowing is not another way of KNOWING, contrary to what many believers assert. That is, simply because there are many things I do not know, it does NOT therefore imply that there is a god any more than it implies that there is an invisible leprechaun in my front yard.
Now, why can't you answer my question?
Preston, there IS a greater force at work. It´s called gravity. And one way or another, it has done a lot to shape life on Earth (and probably elsewhere).
You say prayers and miracles happen. I say: "Oh really?" Because the world sure as hell does not look that way. How many people, both American and Iraqi, pray for peace every day?
How many would be necessary? Would a single prayer from even one true believer not be enough to move God? Apparently not.
You see, the reason I (and I wager quite a few others) do not believe in answered prayers and miracles is that they never happen when they are needed.
What do you think a lot of the people in the planes they crashed into the World Trade Center were doing? I imagine at least 50% of them were praying when they hit. Probably more.
Could you fake a healing? If you say "no", then you are forced to believe non-Christian "miracle workers", as well as David Blaine, James Randi and probably Paul Daniels have supernatural powers.
If you say "yes", then there is no discussion anymore. The hand is swifter than the eye, especially if the mind WANTS to believe.
Do I believe in the supernatural?
Is lightning supernatural? Or X-rays? Just because we do not understand a phenomenon (YET) does not mean it is not natural.
A hundred years ago, nobody knew what DNA was. Or that the universe expands. Or what a Quasar is (in fact we STILL don´t know!).
We don´t know how life started, or what telepathy is, or whether there indeed is life after death.
But that does not mean that we will NEVER know.
YOUR solution, to childishly believe one of many superstitious explanations, is weak and, dare I say it, cowardous, and your condemnation of our scepticism is arrogant in a way that is not justified by intelligence, knowledge or wisdom (since you ostensibly lack all three).
So tone it down a little, sonny. We have heard it all before. And often worded a lot better.
To Preston:
No one was born with a pre-existing knowledge of ghosts, Gods, spirits, Jesus, Allah Santa, your language, etc, etc.
All beliefs and your language come through mimicking what is taught by other humans only.
Now to prove to you or anyone, that neither a God nor a Jesus exists, all beliefs taught to you, disappear when you go to sleep, they disappear when you are unconscious, they disappear when you are under anesthesics, they disappear when you are dead, so this proves 100% that all things learned while your brain is conscious, suddenly disappears when your brain is either dead or unconscious.
Imagine all people removed from the Earth, God and Jesus and all Gods and myths suddenly disappear, Where do they go? They do not exist, they exist only in the conscious mind. Gods and myths are only from the fabrication of the human mind.
I challenge anyone to prove my statement in Bold above, to be wrong or untrue!
well alright jim, i'll humor you.
bare with me while i use the bible for reference.. There are people who will do miracles out of the name of jesus. Wether it be out of god's name, or in the devils power. It seems like an obvious question when you say how can you tell a fake miracle from a real miracle.
Real miracles are obvious, people who have never walked walk, people who have never seen can see. I have witnessed many smaller scale miracles. Like for example, me and one of my friends Kami were at this past texas ablaze conference down in dallas. As people were standing up to give their testimonies of how they were healed that night, my friend suddenly screamed. it actually Scared me silly, since it was kind of quiet in the room. (When She was younger she had to get teeth removed because of her past drug addiction, and still had one tooth that was all nasty and decayed.) But anyways, back to the story. She screamed because she felt teeth breaking out of her gums where she had no teeth before. In under 20 minutes she had two new teeth, and her third one filled in on it's own! She didn't even get prayed for, the annointing was jjust so strong in the room. It was an obvious miracle, because i've known her for a good portion of my life, and have seen a before and after sort of thing.
So in saying that, i think i've come to the conclusion that you should be a bit skeptic when people tell you miracles happen. I know that i've definitely seen some healings that can't happen overnight. But me as a christian have the holy spirit in me, and that includes the spirit of dicernment and such. so i can feel the spirit when i see or hear different things. i know it sounds weird and a bit stupid, but i guess you can never truly know that a miracle happens unless you see it for your self. which i'm afraid is the truth in your circumstance.
did that answer your question?
Now I understand why we have the government that we do.
She didn't even get prayed for, the annointing was jjust so strong in the room.
Oh my goshhhh!....ya mean to tell me she DIDN'T EVEN GET PRAYED FOR?!?!?!?!...and...and she grew three whole new tooths?!?!?!
Well, hmmmm....I don't know.....yeah, I guess seeing as how God did it, I suppose three real teeth look better and work better than a whole mouth full of cosmetic teeth. That God really IS amazing, isn't he!?!?!?!
Dr. Yaweh J. God. D.D.S.
ROFLMAO! I just pissed myself......GOOOOOOD stuff!!!
Preston, Preston, Preston...Please elucidate: what do you count as proof? Someone who says he is xian SAYS something happened? The residual effect of a bullet wound I recieved to the head is a siezure disorder, prominent among them are siezures which affect my temporal lobe. Yes, I dream dreams and see visions, but even I realise that it's only misfiring neurons. (Wife has a ball with it: peaople ask her about this problem, she says I hear voices. Is always asked what they say, she responds, 'kill people, burn down the town, stuff like that. Horrified questioner asks, 'aren't you worried??!!' she responds, 'Nah. He never listens to anyone else, why would he listen to THEM?' Bah.)
I had a stroke last May which took away the sight in my right eye, among other things. I was told regaining the sight in my eye was 95% odds against. My vision came back, the ophthamologist told me I was the first person he'd actually seen make a full recovery. Several people tell me that this occurred because they prayed for me. Personally, I think it was a thumping slice of luck along with caring for it like the doctor suggested that did the job. These same folks are also praying for a person who has Lyme desiese and personal problems which are like being under a rainstorm of razor blades. Le (alleged) Bon Dieu seems unimpressed and un concerned. Apparently, "He has His reasons we cannot know..." but ain't no one listening.
Othe people (some family members) have also prayed for me for other things. They have prayed for catastrophe to hit me that I "may be knocked to my knees and brought to the lord..." and they think they've caused my son to be wounded in Iraq, the stroke to occur, and the car to hit me. And yet, I'm still an atheist.
Preston, I have an injured brain and wasn't that smart to begin with, but I seem to be able to cogitate better than you. Try, son, try. You're not stupid, but you're bullshitting yourself more that others are doing it to you.
Sorry, last post was mine.
Preston: "did that answer your question?"
Well, it's a start. Thank you for that.
Your contention seems to be that miracles are "obvious" when they happen, because they clearly violate principles that we know are normally in operation. You cited the example of an adult's teeth growing back, when we know from experience that this doesn't normally happen with adults (unless you happen to be a shark). You mentioned crippled people suddenly walking, or blind people suddenly seeing. We know from experience that those things just don't normally happen. Have I stated your position fairly so far?
To me, there are two major hurdles that you must clear in order for it to qualify as credible evidence for divine intervention (there is also a third, but less important one). Note carefully that I did not say "in order for it to qualify as proof of divine intervention"; that is an unattainable goal, so I think it far more appropriate to address the infinitely simpler objective of providing evidence. Those hurdles are:
1) To confirm that the event did happen as you (and others) remember it.
2) To understand what is "normal", and when something is a deviation from this.
I don't think I need to spend too much time arguing why both of these are necessary; it's trivial to find cases where one or both of these are violated, thus making the claim dubious. The first can be aided by recording devices, which are free from prejudice and preconception. Humans, on the other hand, are extremely prone to exaggerate, to see what they want or expect to see, to confuse the temporal ordering of events, and to confabulate (unconsciously fill in missing details). In fact, human witnesses are notoriously unreliable, as any trial attorney will attest. The second generally requires that we understand far more than the surface appearance of what we are observing, and very frequently entails a relatively sophisticated grasp of statistics. For how can one deem an unusual cure to be supernatural without knowing the true nature of the malady? How can one deem an event fantastically unlikely without some understanding of the actual likelihood of the event?
In the examples you cited, you would need to know the medical histories of the people involved in order to reasonably assess the events. To what extent were the people blind or crippled? Did the blindness stem from a severed optic nerve, or was it possibly a psychosomatic condition? Or maybe the person was "legally blind" but not totally blind. In the case of your friend, had her teeth been growing back slowly all along? Did something make her suddenly aware of teeth she did not know she had? Was she merely confused at a moment of high emotion? In the case of cripples, there are a huge number of fraudulent "healings", and I would not believe a single such claim from anybody who was not familiar with how such frauds are routinely perpetrated. (For example, if The Amazing Randy were to tell me of such a healing, it would have vastly greater credibility than if I had heard it from a random parishioner.)
This raises another point. Why are there no well-documented miracles? Why do we not have any videos of multiple amputees suddenly getting their arms or legs back, in full view of skeptics who have examined the patient's condition? Given how ubiquitous digital recording devices are now, it should be relatively easy to document these things, no? Are there any videos of people levitating? When people speak in "tongs", are there any recordings that show a person to be speaking a real language that they were previously unfamiliar with? As far as I can tell, the answers to all these questions is "No".
So, here's how I see it. Nearly all "miracles" are related by people (not captured on video, for example), most of whom are already believers. In virtually every such report that I am aware of, the person relating the story seems to be remarkably incurious about the actual events, which leads me to believe that they either wish to believe it, or lack the inclination or capacity to consider alternative explanations. Moreover, the so-called miracles that are reported with astonishing regularity are those for which there are many alternate explanations (fraud being only one of them).
By the way, the third hurdle that you must contend with is this:
3) Even if the inescapable conclusion is that the event is traceable to a supernatural cause, you must then determine which supernatural cause is responsible (e.g. god or Satan).
So, what do I make of your friend's teeth growing back? Well, I think it highly unlikely that her teeth simply appeared in a flash, so I very much doubt that it happened as you explained it. I'm not calling you a liar; I simply do not think you were careful about your observations to begin with, and I think you are probably just as prone as anybody else to turn an unusual or startling perception into a really good story. How do I know this? I don't. But it seems a very mundane explanation compared to a zap from heaven (or wherever). So would a video or the testimony of a dentist convince me? No, probably not. But the story would have vastly greater credibility than it does now. Couple it with hundreds of similarly well-documented stories and I might just be convinced.
Preston, about these "healings" you witnessed: there are plenty of Christian physicians, so why don't they ever go to these events and document what's going on? If these "healings" are real why don't Christian doctors prescribe worship services for their sick patients? If diseases are actually being cured wouldn't it be common knowledge in the medical community by now? Did you tell your own physician about what you saw, and if so what did he or she say? Would you ask your own physician to attend one of these events so he or she can see what's going on?
Preston B. ("...Maybe some day your name will be in lights/ Sayin' Preston B. Goode tonight...") wrote:
"...Healings are really taking place. You might ask me to prove my point, but i think you will be able to find some legit testimonies if...etc"
Now don't be coy, P.B., go ahead; you know you're going to anyway.
There, now that I've got my snarkiness dealt with, I'm gonna surprise you. I don't discount what you're saying about people having dreams all around the world these days that they recognise as not being the usual run-of-the-mill kind. After all, the person who wrote "Close Encounters..." had to get the idea from somewhere.
Where I disagree w/ you is that it has anything to do with a deity. Dreams are often a manifestation of something that we are picking up that we don't even realise we're picking up during conscious thought.
I can tell the difference from the dreams "that matter" from the dreams that don't, when I have them. Someone's gonna set up a website one of these days for people to report the former type, to see if any trends emerge in them. An eel_shepherd prediction.
Jim Arvo's problem #3 is the biggie, isn't it? There's no proof that any given miracle wasn't Allah's doing, or Pele's, or Zeus's, or Mithras' or the Flying Spaghetti Monster's.
Preston's only proof is going to be his faith and the bible and he should know right now that cuts no mustard around here.
If you didn't know that, Preston, consider yourself hereby duly notified.
Hope you're feeling better soon, Grampa Harley!
Preston B. Goode ("...maybe some day your name will be in lights...") wrote:
"...Healings are really taking place. You might ask me to prove my point, but i think you will be able to find some legit testimonies if...etc."
Now, don't be coy Preston; tell us anyway. Fill us in. You know you're going to.
Oddly enough, though, I think a certain amount of what you're saying is true, even if I run the risk of getting shot down here by people whose opinion matters to me.
I believe that the number of, if you want to call them that, "prophetic" dreams is on the rise. Dreams are not so insubstantial that they can be passed off as mere transient thoughts. They serve a purpose. Even the throwaway dreams serve a purpose for the person having them. But those aren't the ones I'm talking about here. Something along the lines of the plot in "Close Encounters Of The Third Kind" is what I'm referring to here. I'd speculate that the person who wrote that book/screenplay didn't just think it up, in the normal way.
Some dreams are about things that people can feel are shaping up in the present and the future that they are picking up on a level other than the level of conscious linear thinking, and don't realise they're picking it up. And I think those are on the rise, as our position in the ecosystem(s) becomes increasingly precarious. I can tell the difference between the normal, seemingly pointless, dreams that I've had all my life, and the dreams that "matter".
Here's a prediction, worth every penny you paid for it (...): Someone's gonna set up a website where people can send in the stories in the dreams they think matter, and the results will be looked at with an eye to picking out certain themes common to a lot of them.
But before you start letting the dish run away with the spoon, on this post, lemme stress that god has nothing to do with it, there is no god. (BTW, I'm not going to rag on you about your failure to use your spell-checker, except to say that as a believer it wouldn't have killed you to use a capital "J" in Jebus' name; he's your guy after all, not ours) It's straight-up psychological research, even if it sounds a bit fringe-y, that I'm talking about. Why not just examine it on that level w/o all the religious/apocalypso jazz? Why complicate your legs --- _you_ have to walk on them.
Please pardon (or remove) the double post. I did the first one at the library where my time is limited to half an hour before the computer cuts the user off, and I thought (because I didn't see it there when I got home) that my post didn't quite make it under the wire. It's a game of inches, I tellya. And I had to try and remember the subject and flavour of the post. One of them (and this one) can be profitably, if not prophetably, deleted.
I just passed by and I could not help thinking how condescending (if not down right insulting) were many of the responses to Preston's post. Most of you don't like being hectored to by an Evangelical Christian or your views dismissed by them as laughable. Why then do the same when Preston presents his honestly held views? Is it so silly to think that there is more to the universe than we can see? Is there a folly thinking that we have been created for a purpose? That we are subservient and not masters of our destiny alone? That science does not provide the answers for everything? That there is the possibility of having a spiritual life? Are you so certain of your own positions?
On our side we are instructed always to "be ready to defend your confidence in God when anyone asks ou to explain it. However, make your defense with gentleness and respect." It may be more productive if you were to do the same.
i don't know what to say to you eel shepherd.
But Jim, there were no teeth before she was there, then they both came out of the gum, slowly rising. in about an 8 minute period she had two new teath. and over the next ten minutes her other tooth fillied in on it's own. just thought you might want to know.
And also, we only pray by the name of jesus. I want to know one healing, just one, that happened without the name of Jesus. Or without an atmosphere thick in the weight of the spirit.
yeah
Howdy Fundy Idiot:
Your screen name might be considered condescending toward other fundamentalist, don’t you think? But you don’t sound like an idiot to me and your point is well taken! But let’s review Preston’s very first tirades toward Dave (WM) and note that Preston started throwing “rocks” right from the get-go.
“It doesn't make any sense how you think that you've figured out god is fake through your little mind. It seems like you were offended that god does whatever he wants to. Your life has always been centered around yourself, there for it definitely would be illogical to think that something bigger is out there right?”
So from the above we have, Dave doesn’t make ANY SENSE, has a “LITTLE MIND” and has ALWAYS been SELFISH and SELF-CENTERED and is, therefore, incapable of logical thought processes like those about to be explained by Preston. Geesh…
With the above as the preamble to Preston’s post, I am actually surprised Dave responded so politely. Surely, we can do better!
I have a suggestion to Preston and perhaps others. Read Dave’s Anti-Testimony. http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002/04/sabbatical-or-my-anti-testimony.php
Then prayerfully consider how you might respond to him or any of us for that matter. I doubt you would get a venomous retort. I am, of course, citing the “Golden Rule” - Matthew 7:12; Luke 6:31. What say ye?
Preston, I'm sorry, but I just don't believe your tooth story without corroboration. But more importantly, even if it were so, I don't know how you can so easily attribute it to a supernatural being. Have you consulted dentists/doctors? Looking at the bigger picture, are you claiming that god, the creator of the universe, superseded natural law to perform this odd little miracle for your friend? Was this of greater urgency, do you suppose, then rescuing children around the world from desperate situations? (Honestly, I am always baffled by this. Why would god restore a tooth, or locate missing car keys, but not protect a child from being raped or murdered? This makes absolutely no sense to me.)
As for non-Christian healing, surely you are aware of shamans and holy-men of many religions performing similar "healings"! If not, spend ten minutes with Google. There are hundreds of them. The mind is a powerful thing; virtually every culture has discovered the power of suggestion and the power of ritual. I think you're being markedly ethnocentric to suggest that "Jesus" is the one and only magical incantation. (Another thing that baffles me is why god needs any kind of incantation. Can she not see what needs to get done? Failing that, does she not know our wishes?)
To "Fundy Idiot", casting broad insults is not the least bit helpful. If you have a specific complaint, please supply a quote and/or a name so that we have some hope of knowing who you're addressing or what you're referring to. As for your questions, i.e. "Is it so silly to think that there is more to the universe than we can see?" etc., they are so sophomoric that they don't warrant a response. Do you honestly think anybody here claims to see or know everything? Isn't your question a thinly veiled insult, implying that we are so simple-minded to think we have all the answers while you, in your Socratic wisdom, realize that we do not? Please. If you have something insightful to offer, or a real question to pose, then go right ahead. If you don't insult our intelligence with questions like those above, we won't insult yours. Do we have a deal?
Preston said, "It just shows how decieving deception is".
What more is there to say.
It really makes me laugh to hear someone repeating the same jargon his predecessors have for the past two millenia accusing someone ELSE of not having much in the mental arena. Well, parrot your preachers/deacons/priests all you like, maybe we'll give you a cracker. And it might be the flesh of your savior, who knows?
Mike Lee
"They constantly have these vivid dreams, and visitations into heaven, and even into hell. (...) Please tell me, are all of these people crazy?"
Erm... ...yes?
Vivid dreams are pretty common even if you're not a Christian, actually. I had a good one last night, but can't remember what it was about. ;)
To Preston B amd Fundy Idiot...
I know it's been said before, but...WHY ARE YOU HERE?! You KNOW what this site is about, yet you come here spewing that garbage. There will be no conversions here. And you have the audacity to become offended when your words are disputed? Gimme a break!! In the words of Rick James, "Cocaine is a very powerful drug!" LOL
To Preston: I'm curious, what age is your friend who had the teeth miraculously appear & were those three teeth back teeth (or molars)? If I guessed correctly, wow then I must be a psychic, right? Wrong! I work in dentistry. CJ-R
Preston,
You've got guts for still hanging around. Usually Christians who post an opening letter in this forum are never heard from again.
I've heard some crazy claims in the world of faith healing, but teeth suddenly growing back is certainly original. All I can say to that one is I hope you are just trying to get a good laugh out of us, because I thought it was very funny.
In recent years the greatest enemy of the so called faith healers has to be serious investagative reporters who work for NBC's Dateline or ABC's Primetime or 20/20. Dateline uncovered Benny Hinn's web of bullshit by finding some of his miracle cancer cures dead and buried. When they dug real deep the found absolutely no one who has actually experinced a miracle cure from Bennie. Why is it that no man of God who claims to have healing powers ever share his gift free of charge? It's all about the Benjamins and always has been.
Faith healing stories spread among the faithful like wild fire, but when investigated turn out to be bullshit 100% of the time thus far. We are all still waiting for an amutated limb to grow back.
Preston, the only thing going on in Methodist churches in my town (Dayton, Ohio) is SPIRITUAL ABUSE!!! And by pastors that claim to be straight, but are NOT and go after Gay men and women in the communty to shame them and throw them out of churches. Your such an ass, as he is; you must know my X pastor Phil. He is a LIAR and a worthless piece of shit. He is soooooooooooo deep in the closet and HATES all Gay men and women that are out that he has become ABUSIVE. Poor boy, mommy must have never loved him enough to love him for who he is, a Gay man. Now he is a lost ass wipe!
I learned that in the Methodist church, NEVER JUDGE A BOOK BY ITS COVER.....most of them are self serving assholes WHO KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE BIBLE, Like you!
P.S. you must have been HOME SCHOOLED, AS YOU WRITE LIKE A 2ND GRADER!
Preston, you are so arrogant and so illogical. You are so not worth anyone else's time. Saying things like "the Catholics are just weird and out of wack on their beliefs..." simply shows a lot of intolerance and lack of respect of other belief systems on your part. So what if certain churches interpret the Scriptures differently then you do?! As for healing and all that, many have claimed to have found peace in other religions, such as Judaism and Taoism, but attempting to discuss that with you would be pointless, as I am sure all you would do is yammer and whine about what you call "false prophets."
I'm doing you a favor to let you know you are simply wasting your time trying to force your beliefs on people in such a fashion. I, for one, could care less about the stuff you mention in Kansas City. Putting others down by calling them self-centered and beating them over the head with your opinions just makes people think you're a loudmouth ***hole. If you tried to approach me on the street with literature, etc., I wouldn't even say hello to you, as people like you are beset by their own demons and will dig their own graves due to their nastiness, rudeness, and intolerance.
Preston, you are toast. Give it up.
Actually preston youre the pot calling the kettle black, all you care about is yourself, because you want to go to heaven, but in order to do that you have to brainwash other people into believing that what YOU believe is true, so go toddle off ya hypocrite, and try to read that passage about taking the plank out of your own eye, leave non christians alone, just because Dave here is doing a good thing for ex christians is no reason to act like a spoiled brat about it.
I wonder if any of you have a theory about life after life experiences that many who have been declared clinically dead have come back to tell about?
Two books come to mind. "Life After Life" and "90 Minutes in Heaven"
I've read parts of both (as well as have talked to some who've experienced this phenomenon)and it is quite interesting.
I'm going to have to research this out again and blog it.
R. Hoeppner: "I wonder if any of you have a theory about life after life experiences that many who have been declared clinically dead have come back to tell about?"
Já, I have a theory.
They weren't actually dead, merely in a particular brain state that occurs in high-stress situations. I suspect that some EEG activity might still be occurring, albeit at a very low amplitude.
RH: "I wonder if any of you have a theory about life after life experiences that many who have been declared clinically dead have come back to tell about?"
Yeah, I have a theory... whatever words you use, are all associated to natural phenomena.
The supernatural realm will never be part of NDEs, etc., until a religionist can prove such a realm exists, and that's not possible, since the religionist lives in a "natural" realm, that they can't escape from.
So, RH, what is your theory for NDEs, etc? Natural phenomena or supernatural phenomena?
As I read this comment I could feel my blood boil. I'm sick of fundemental Christianity.
I grew up in a Pentecostal home. I was raised speaking in tongues. I was prophetized over when I was nine to be an overseas missionary. I accepted god into my life when I was 6. You know what it did? It wasn't this amazing, beautiful story of my life. I was brainwashed. Here I am almost 20 and trying to start my life. But my entire perspective is screwed up. Why? All because of this "truth".
You wanna talk about miracles? Stop being such a hypocrite and research some things yourself. Miracles are not only a Christian concept. Wiccans, hindus, buddhists among others also experience miracles. But you don't want to hear that. You believe "God" is the only one true god and no other person or religion could have a true miracle.
Real leaders in the church? Have you ever heard or seen Benny Hin? Do you know the kind of crap he pulls? The size of the house he has? The money from the offering he uses for himself? For his expenses? Yes yes I know, there are good Christians out there. I should know, some are my closest friends. But there's maybe one good apple in 20.
Prayer movement? Try hype. Please. I beg you. Don't lie to yourself. You stand there, with your hands raised and you feel pressured, even in the slightest way. To sing. To pray in tongues. To be slain in the spirit. To repent. To have something exceptional happen to you. You ask yourself, why won't the preacher prophetize over me? Secretly you ask, "God, don't you think I'm special enough? What have I done to disapoint you? Why won't someone have a special word for me?"
Vivid dreams of heaven? Native Americans were having dreams about an afterlife, of the meaning of universe and punishment before Christianity was ever thought of, before Jesus was even born. So what? Your leaders have dreams. And what if they were to have dreams of sharing heaven with unbelievers? With witches and buddhist monks. If they had a dream that didn't line up with the gospel, would that make their dreams any less valid?
"Please tell me, are all of these people crazy? I mean there has to be some scientific reason for it, right?" No they aren't crazy. They are just brainwashed. That is scientific explaination for you, brainwashing happens all over the world. Just like the Muslims you shake your head at. You think that they have no sence of the preciousness of life, because they strap bombs to their chests and blow innocent bystanders away. They believe what they are doing is right. They believe in the "truth". They believe in the "one true god". So where's the difference? Both are manipulated through suggestion after suggestion, sermon after sermon, verse after verse until finally: they don't think for themselves at all.
I've been there. I've done that. I've gotten out. My heart actually truely breaks when I see someone who I use to be. I use to be just like you. You. You with your devotional and your 3 different bibles for referencing. You with your prayers for your future husband/wife. You with your desire to please. You with your life being ruled by guilt. You with your judgement about other people with different beliefs and religions and sexual orientations. And my heart breaks. Because you're so lost and so broken, and you don't even know it.
Deprogramming yourself, your mind, from Christianity is a long process. But never in my life have I felt so liberated. So entirely alive. I see the world in it's real beauty, not created for God, but created for each individual on this earth to love and behold.
I have so much else I could go off about in to why my faith desolved, but I won't. I'll leave you with all of that. I always told people around me as a Christian that I felt fufilled, maybe I really believed it, but in comparision to how I feel now, that was all a lie.
Blessed Be,
Steph
I've read a lot about the near death experience (NDE). I'm familiar with the so called 'scientific' explanations of the phenomenon, such as when the brain begins to shut down it triggers these types of sensations and experiences. Physiological changes from cerebral anoxia, the release of endorphins etc. are merely theories that really fall far short of explaining this experience. Often NDE subjects come back telling about things they vividly saw which they couldn't have seen from their perspective even if they possessed their full faculties.
For instance,typically they view their own bodies from above at the time of death, be it a hospital bed or accident scene. They see and describe from that elevated perspective details which could not be known from their physical positions. Beyond that, many have seen a relative or person they knew in life, later to learn that particular individual had died prior to the NDE unbeknownst to them. It's not uncommon they will report seeing a being of light near some sort of boundary.
Check it out on the web.
Anonymous "Steph"
Do I detect some hostility in your post? Sorry for you, but of course you are responsible for your own happiness; not your parents, not religion, nobody but you.
Of course you assumed I was talking about Christianity when I spoke of after life experiences. These experiences happen after the individual is clinically dead. No heart beat, no respiration etc.
People from all different creeds have these kinds of experiences. There is room for doubt in some cases that this was anything more than a process by which the brain shuts down. I'll grant you those. But by far the stories I find absolutely fascinating go far beyond that.
It's true that some return from encountering the 'being of light' and don't make a connection with it as Jesus Christ, but virtually all who are acquainted with the Christian faith do believe it to be Christ.
I'm just curious as to what opinions I might find on this web log. I've read a condensed version of "Life after Life," published in the Readers Digest some time ago and became fascinated.
There are many things that cannot be explained in most of these experiences. Recently I picked up a book at Costco, "90 Minutes in Heaven" by Don Piper.
Don was pronounced dead at the scene of an accident by two teams of paramedics. He was left for 90 minutes while medics attended to others in the accident. He revived after an hour and a half and wrote about this in that book. But you don't have to go there. Google up the topic, read what you will and try to educate yourself about it so you can have something intelligent to comment on it.
Steph would you please come back and share your thoughts with us?
R.H, Please go away, you old stale fart!
RH, Raymond Moody put together "Life after Life" in 1975. I read it when it was new and fell for it for awhile. However, I was on only 16, so I plead stupid.
Here is some good information on Near Death Experiences (NDEs): Hallucinatory Near-Death Experiences
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