Are you really looking at yourself?
Sent in by Nunya
I found this site by pure mistake. I could not resist reading some of what is being said. I notice the right side of the window is always the same. Asking for donations, selling books, and other paraphanalia to promote an anti-christian point of view. But mostly making it excessively easy to donate money.
I looked for 10min to find the link to "post". It is called "Submit a Testimony"
Before you get to the free form box to write what you have to say there is a long list of little boxes to fill out. Your story title, name, age, gender, etc....
Then there is a questionaire, all about when did you become a christian, why, when did you stop, why, how do you label yourself and what is your email addr?
Well I did not answer any of the questions but I am not trying to hide behind any type of dogma; either for or against christianity.
If you want to reply and tell me off or voice your opinion my email addr is:
way2muchfingbs@yahoo.com
All I wanted to say to anyone who may read this is, sounds to me like you are trading one type of religion for another, you still give all your support, both emotional and especially financial to this web site and this belief system (or would that be unbelief system?)......so what is the point of participating?
To save everyone else from a terrible mistake? To share your story of "un-redemption"? Sounds like Sunday morning or Wednesday night at church to me (or would that be unchurch?)
So my question is: except for the staggering list of opposite verbs, what the hell difference is there between this and any other religion, christian or otherwise?
Oh and I don't give a flying flip about your answer because the answer is important to you, so if you think about it at all, just answer the question for yourself....
Maybe you should just take a walk and spend some time getting to know YOU instead of feeding into someone else telling you what to think........like those people you are trying to save from religion are doing. Maybe if you would spend some energy talking to YOURSELF, writing letters to YOURSELF, then you would "hear" what you have missed.
You are no different than people who call themselves christians, your just on the other side of the table now, still in the argument, still playing the game. Still using some dogma to avoid really looking at yourself.
Personally, I don't give a rat's ass what you believe as long as you don't think hurting other people is o.k. And if you think about it; it doesn't matter who says what the truth is or isn't, we all find out when we die. So why waste your time being negative or allowing other negative people to have space in your life? It doesn't matter if they say they are for or against religion or christianity or anything else.
What matters is the amount of love and caring you can find to give and share with the people that matter to you. What matters is if you help someone because you want to or becuase you think you will get something out of it. Why does it matter? Who are you doing it for? For yourself, for the people that you love, that's all. That is really all there is, and if there is a God in there somewhere, you will find him all on your own without a church or anti-church or religion or anti-religion humping on your back.
So are you really looking at yourself?
I found this site by pure mistake. I could not resist reading some of what is being said. I notice the right side of the window is always the same. Asking for donations, selling books, and other paraphanalia to promote an anti-christian point of view. But mostly making it excessively easy to donate money.
I looked for 10min to find the link to "post". It is called "Submit a Testimony"
Before you get to the free form box to write what you have to say there is a long list of little boxes to fill out. Your story title, name, age, gender, etc....
Then there is a questionaire, all about when did you become a christian, why, when did you stop, why, how do you label yourself and what is your email addr?
Well I did not answer any of the questions but I am not trying to hide behind any type of dogma; either for or against christianity.
If you want to reply and tell me off or voice your opinion my email addr is:
way2muchfingbs@yahoo.com
All I wanted to say to anyone who may read this is, sounds to me like you are trading one type of religion for another, you still give all your support, both emotional and especially financial to this web site and this belief system (or would that be unbelief system?)......so what is the point of participating?
To save everyone else from a terrible mistake? To share your story of "un-redemption"? Sounds like Sunday morning or Wednesday night at church to me (or would that be unchurch?)
So my question is: except for the staggering list of opposite verbs, what the hell difference is there between this and any other religion, christian or otherwise?
Oh and I don't give a flying flip about your answer because the answer is important to you, so if you think about it at all, just answer the question for yourself....
Maybe you should just take a walk and spend some time getting to know YOU instead of feeding into someone else telling you what to think........like those people you are trying to save from religion are doing. Maybe if you would spend some energy talking to YOURSELF, writing letters to YOURSELF, then you would "hear" what you have missed.
You are no different than people who call themselves christians, your just on the other side of the table now, still in the argument, still playing the game. Still using some dogma to avoid really looking at yourself.
Personally, I don't give a rat's ass what you believe as long as you don't think hurting other people is o.k. And if you think about it; it doesn't matter who says what the truth is or isn't, we all find out when we die. So why waste your time being negative or allowing other negative people to have space in your life? It doesn't matter if they say they are for or against religion or christianity or anything else.
What matters is the amount of love and caring you can find to give and share with the people that matter to you. What matters is if you help someone because you want to or becuase you think you will get something out of it. Why does it matter? Who are you doing it for? For yourself, for the people that you love, that's all. That is really all there is, and if there is a God in there somewhere, you will find him all on your own without a church or anti-church or religion or anti-religion humping on your back.
So are you really looking at yourself?
Comments
There's no threat of hell or judgemental God waiting to cast you into hell for not titheing or donating to this website!
But a preacher can get up and blow out fried chicken farts one day a week and tell the congregation if they do not come to his church and freely donate money then they will be cast into a fiery hell.
Every Sunday millions and millions of fearful believers make an tremendous effort to make a showing of their presense to their tyrant pastor in hopes that their imaginary God will not cast judgment upon them, perhaps you think this is normal behavior?
Perhaps you think the money goes into the pockets of the imaginary God!!!
It's Nunya freaking business why we choose to bash religions and preachers, apparently you would like to deny us our only path to expose the religious lies and deception!
Unfortunately this website does not reach enough people to make one shread of difference, yet it is enough for you to make a such a negative statement.
I would be willing to think that most people that post on here against religions would like to see all religions abolished, since it is presently against the laws of the land to burn down all the churches and hang all the lying preachers, this is the only outlet most of us have.
Right now if one burns a church down, they will just build a bigger one and a fancier one with their insurance money and beg for more donations and get overwhelming public sympathy.
Apparently you do not see the hypocrasy and fraudness in religions, apparently you agree with people being led around like a brainwashed puppy!
I'll not be emailing you, because I happen to think you're a self-righteous bigot!
Why don't you look at yourself and pull your head out of your ass??
Nunya, are you aware that you sound rather patronising? I dare say it isn't going to make your advice very popular. It is good advice, though - because it seems that when Christians do start thinkink sincerely about Christianity, they start thinking of the problems involved in it - and, if they're lucky, ultimately reject it.
Once they've done so, though, they can feel rather lonely, and very frustrated, especially in a god-soaked society. So they come here to share, to learn, to investigate the side of Christianity they can't trust the church to tell them about, and to heal emotional wounds.
Try it yourself. You may find a little reflection is just what you need.
But this reply and the previous and following ones are of course going to be totally ignored. Because he declared how he doesn't give a rat's ass about our answers...
Wait a minute.
So if he starts by boasting about how he doesn't care about ANYTHING we'll say... why should we care about ANYTHING he has just said?
Joyous discovery! Let's go back to our evil atheist conspiration.
Of COURSE you do, or you wouldn't have taken the time to post at all...you would have simply moved on...people don't post in a vacuum. To believe otherwise is naive.
To condescend to an audience by preaching that one has a better way to live one's life than another is not only patronizing, it's arrogant and deceitful. But if that is how you want to play this, I have some advice for YOU, nunya:
I do just fine without your quaint, psycho-babbling diatribes. I find your analogy of this site to the christian church as naive, bereft of evidence and just a form of psychological projection. You see? I can use the format, as well.
A major difference between this site and the church is that I am NOT threatened with retribution by an angry god if I DO NOT DONATE, tithe, carry on the good work, spread the gospel, however you wish to define it. Your analogy is flawed, not apt and childish.
As for you not caring about opinions of those who post here, I DO care enough to rebutt and I DO care enough to let you know that your opinions concerning self-exploration, though pointed and VERY interesting, are also very after-the-fact, for most people in here. Most who read, post in, enjoy and patronize this site have already explored the kind of critical mirror-to-the-self you speak of. The idea that you use a flawed analogy to promulgate the idea itself is YOUR problem, not mine nor many who come here.
You seem to have made up your mind about one thing, which is evident by your post: you are sure that none in here has looked within him/herself to seek some form of "self-truth." I think the fact that many have come here has at least, in part, proven you wrong.
Excessively? I have to make a decision before I click on any of those links asking to support this site. I have to decide if my budget can handle it, if I really want to, if my credit card is capable of taking it, etc. etc. It's anonymous, and it's completely my choice.
But in CHURCH! Boy, if you don't give and you let that basket pass by you without flipping at least a dollar in, you get that wave of guilt that everyone can see you out of the corner of their eye. It's a community and the pressure to tithe is enormous. and what would god think if I didn't tithe? The consequences are fearsome... you tell me!
Naomi
Would you be equally as bothered if this was a website for people who are former knitters and want to talk about their experience in walking away from knitting?
The question "Are you really looking at yourself" sounds like a case of projection. This is what you need to ask yourself. Most of us come here because we are ex-christians. This site has helped us to understanding the mindmucking we went through while enmeshed in this religion. Why are you here? Why have you taken the time and energy to compose several paragraphs that basically just assert that we need to "look at ourselves."
I encourage you to look at yourself and find out why you have this need to assert your uninformed opinions to a topic you know nothing about. After you do that, please post what you have discovered. I would really like to know what motivates you.
Though you said otherwise, I think you care what we think... perhaps far too much. Maybe you should be looking at yourself to understand why you needed to make a drive-by post to a site that doesn't offer anything you want and which did not seek you out.
LOL, thanks for the laughs you've provided to me today. :-) And know that every time I see an ignorant posts like yours, it only convinces me further that leaving Christianity was the right thing to do.
You do care, or you wouldn't have posted. Seems like you have a lot of anger and frustration. I think in terms of here and now. I have a materialist view. The world is what it is because that's the way it occured. I have seen nothing to demonstrate the need of a god. We are like the ice in the hole in ground. We fit the hole perfectly because we adapted to the shape of the hole. If the hole was shaped different, we'd be different.
Religion answers no questions and fills peoples minds with delusions and mysticisms. Christians are the pagans they claim to hate so much.
Do you honestly think you can walk into any church on Sunday and refute what is being taught?
This country is supposed to have 2ond amendment rights, freedom of speech, but it is quelched every Sunday in church, why is that Nunya?
Why is freedom of speech not allowed in church on Sundays?
Because it's time to spread lies on Sunday, that's why.
Others are here helping out with that process of "unredemption"
Sorry that your not intelligent enough to know why we're here,but thats o.k.,...it's why you're still a fundie!
*P.s. are'nt people who talk to themselves considered mentally ill?
(what a dumb-ass!)
Whoaaaa
Then why bother wasting your time posting?
Also, you would be wise to realize people tend to reflect back or mirror. After reading what you wrote, you can go fuck yourself.
You want respect you must first learn to give it.
First of all, it is my unprofessional but nonetheless wise opinion, that you, my friend, suffer from a personality disorder called ASSHOLITIS. Symptoms include delusions of grandeur, superior complex, and trying to manipulate others who are far more insightful than yourself, that you "don't give a rat's ass" about our opinions despite the fact that you left your email address so that you can hear exactly that.
I would like to respond to your comment about the fact that we emotionally and financially support this website and that these "contributions" in someway have replaced our church tithes and attendance.
First of all, Dave does not pass around a basket or a reminder of any sort twice a week so that we feel guilty if we DON'T contribute. There is no conviction attached to his PASSIVE request for donations. The support given does not end if we fail to give of our wallets, whereas there are churches who will not help a family with any amount of financial support unless they can see that the family or individual has been regularly tithing regardless of how destitute this family or individual might happen to be. Churches make a show of sending the collection plate around with intentions of embarrassing a person into tithing. It's all psychological. The church could just as well have a collection at the front door so that parishoners can contribute at will instead of interrupting the service, but then that wouldn't be as profitable now would it?
Secondly, church attendance is considered to be practically mandatory to prove your devotion to God and to the "family" of Christ. A lack of attendance in church threatens its financial stability. "Attendance" to this site, however is voluntary as are any contributions. I can assure you that none of us are blowing up eachother's emailboxes asking where we've been, why we haven't posted, and whether or not we've been sending in our financial support. No one solicits us in any way. We come here, because we enjoy the intelligent debates, supporting new de-converts, and venting our frustration at an establishment that lied to us and kept us in bondage for years.
There are far too few athiests and agnostics in the world. There are far too few people admitting that we don't know what we don't know, but this is one of the few places you will find such people. This is a place for "souls" reaching out for understanding, for a shoulder to cry on...Here, we have a voice, something we are just learning to exercise now after years of brainwashing and feeling in danger of Hell simply for not being able to accept the repugnant teachings of the Christian religion.
Think not too highly of yourself, my friend, for there may come a time when you find yourself reaching out, but alas will discover that no one "gives a rat's ass" about what YOU think
It's a support group (first, among other things;) Support groups are all about caring. It's a good thing for the people who come here, cuz if it's not, they don't stick around!
You can donate or not, what's the point of making donations difficult? I'll be a donating member as soon as I can afford it!
Why so much anger, Nunya? I gotta wonder.
It always fascinates me that people are so eager on the internet to show off the fact they aren't intelligent enough to do even do basic research.
I do not wish to de-convert people to a non-religion. I am not the prophet of atheism or humanism. I shall leave that to Richard Dawkins. People will have to come to me to convert me before I feel that they need de-conversion. Who am I to say that they will be better people without religion?
I have taken a look at myself. I believe that we can only understand what a human is by studying the species from varying angles. I have read psychology, sociology, socio-anthropology, evolution and the field of evolutionary psychology. And I can honestly say that I know myself and I understand what humans are and what makes them tick. The question is, do you?
Without a God many people wonder what the point of life is. The last time I went to church. Yes, I have to go from time to time – weddings, children’s christenings etc. I was given a testimony from a person who became a Christian because he needed a purpose in life. What is the highest purpose a human can think of – yes, God, of course. As living organisms we all share a common purpose: to propagate our DNA to the next generation. As humans the purpose we must have is to enjoy our life and be happy and to make others happy.
I do like your point of view when you say that we all find out when we die. I remember a philosophical point of view; I can’t remember who said it:
If I live my life and believe in God and Jesus and I die then there are two possible outcomes:
1. God and Jesus are true and I get to live for eternity in heaven.
2. God and Jesus don’t exist so I will cease to exist and nothing will happen to my eternal soul because there isn’t one. And my human life has been a waste of time and I have lived a lie.
If I live my life and I do not believe in God and Jesus and I die; then again there are two possible outcomes:
1. God and Jesus are true and I live for eternity in eternal pain and punishment
2. God and Jesus don’t exist so I will cease to exist and nothing will happen to my eternal soul because there isn’t one.
This is a powerful argument. I’d prefer to not live a lie. The choice, as they say, is yours
Or is it possible that this person is just so used to looking for "donation" buttons that this item is the first one they look for and is the one item that has them so fixated??
What you refer to is called "Pascal's Wager." It goes something like this:
If you believe in god:
If god[1] exists, you go to heaven[2] after you die.
If god doesn't exist, you lived a good life[3] and lose nothing[4] upon death.
If you do NOT believe in god:
If god exists, you go to hell[2] after you die.
If god doesn't exist, you lose nothing upon death.
Therefore there is no pragmatic reason to NOT believe in god, as you lose nothing after death if it's not true, and have an eternity of singing god's praises in heaven if he does indeed exist, while there being the possibility of an eternity of pain in hell if you don't believe.
Here are the problems with the Pascal Wager:
1. The assumption in [1] is that the undefined "god" is the christian god, and this therefore translates to: if the CHRISTIAN god exists or does NOT exist, then [...the rest of the wager]. This is a classic false dichotomy, since there are multiple gods and religions from which to choose and there are infinite "possible" or hypothetical gods. Add to this the infinite atheistic possibilities. Therefore, the assumption that belief in the christian god and not others is rational is an unjustified one.
2. The assumption in [2] is related to [1] insofar as it is referring only to the christian mythology and its version of an afterlife. As with [1], there are multiple established different religions and infinite "possible" afterlives with just as much evidential weight as the christian one. Therefore, the assumption of a christian afterlife ONLY is an unjustified assumption. This includes an afterlife in which the rules are opposite; where the unbelieving go to an eternity of bliss while the christians burn in an eternal hell!
3. I disagree with [3] because being a christian does not necessarily equate with a happy or moral life.
4. I disagree with [4] because I certainly WOULD lose things by converting "just in case" there's a nasty afterlife waiting for me. As to WHAT I would lose, it would include: self-respect, free time, wealth and various other things denied by adherence to dogmas which I will not go into. There could multiple losses for other people, too. For instance, if I rebuked evolution, and instead of going off to study biology in my future I joined a monastery, the world may have lost a cure for cancer that may have been in my grasp had I chosen a different path.
5. There's no evidence atheists don't go on to "something better" after death. No more than theists, anyway. Atheists don't [usually] believe in an afterlife, but this is just another part of the false dilemma outlined above. Buddhists, for example, may not believe in a god, and even less likely a christian god, yet believe in reincarnation.
6. Fear of punishment/lust for rewards are not logically justified reasons to mentally accept a premise. It's merely a threat or a bribe. It would be like saying "Join al qaeda so you and your family don't get killed by them, and you get an eternally pleasant afterlife, including 72 virgins! You have nothing to lose!"
7. The character of god, or any afterlife mechanism, is unknown. This mechanism may be able to recognize between those who were threatened into belief due to fear of punishment and any "true believers."
To make a long post even longer (lol), Pascal's Wager can be summed up thus: If there were a lottery with a one in infinity chance of winning, would you bet your life savings on it?
I really must get myself a username.
This is not another church. However, it is a gathering place, where we meet like-minded individuals, share ideas, sometimes disagree with one another. We grow, we learn, we gain reinforcement in the fact that we don’t have to accept the bullshit answers to everything in church. Right on, Nvrgoingbk.
“I don’t give a rats ass about your answer” is a dead give-away of the fundamentalist position. Nothing you say will change my mind. Couldn’t possibly. The world is flat, standing still at the center of the universe, because that is what God says. Kill the infidel because that is what Allah says. All speeders get tickets (I'm touchy about that one right now).
We don’t learn anything when we die [right on, Jim Earl]; only when we are alive. He could have learned that from the Bible, from Ecclesiastes 9. The New Testament totally changed ideas about what happens at death, and the psycho-babble we get from Christianity makes no sense:
“For whoever is joined with all the living, there is hope; surely a live dog is better than a dead lion.
For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.
Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.
Go then, eat your bread in happiness and drink your wine with a cheerful heart; for God has already approved your works.
Let your clothes be white all the time, and let not oil be lacking on your head.
Enjoy life with the woman whom you love all the days of your fleeting life which He has given to you under the sun; for this is your )reward in life and in your toil in which you have labored under the sun."
Anony:
The eternal pain and suffering part of your formula is impossible. The OT never taught it, and it’s highly doubtful that the NT teaches it. In any case, it’s a logically impossible fabrication of the human mind. When we die, we die. Nothing to fear except leaving those we love without us. That would happen anyway.
Right on Epicurienne. I loved the analogy to ex-knitters. I don’t believe in knitting! We could all go to knitting school on Sunday, spend 10 percent to support knitting, do nothing but knitting that day, and have faith in the invisible knitter in the sky the rest of the week. We could say that people who don’t knit have worthless lives, have no values, and can’t possibly have any morality. It makes as much sense.
Lee: You make a good point that has often occurred to me. I can’t believe in the nonsensical, threatening parts of theology. If the favorable, reassuring aspects of theology are true, God can heal all ills. There is nothing to prevent God from taking everybody to a new life, and wiping away every tear, regardless of whether we believed or not. I still don’t believe it, but it would compute if God exists and has that power. Why wouldn’t She want to do that?
Are you by chance affiliated with this group? You seem like the typical judgemental brain-dead Christian as shown in the video below.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRWwWCKXFFY
Cheers
Wrong! From the video, "those Amish girls deserved to die." WTF!
Nobody in this forum would ever say something as vile and crude such as that statement by the True (TM) Christian in the video...it takes religion to become that hateful.
Nunya, the Westboro Baptist Church members are True (TM) Christians. They backup their message with the shit in the Bible. Don't you just feel the "love and caring" from these True (TM) Christians?
http://www.godhatesfags.com
Cheers
What you have to understand is that life is simply not just about being emotionally intact with the human part of life. You have to realize that we, as creatures of certain higher intelligence, should embrace the intellect and advance such a progression.
Next, humans are rational individuals... or at least for some...well... dont make hasty generalizations!! you think ex -christians are irrational and D U M B?? u should realize that by now that rationality shouls always play a most important role in our life, and that we should never degrade our quality of being intellectual.
I think YOU are the one who should look into yourself. Which side do you stand on, rationality or ignorance?
I stand on rationality, and evolution is much more evidently rational than christianity.
look at it this way.
this does not only consider an individual and his/her self-reflection. It considers a WHOLE POPULATION!! u mean ud rather let all ever-growing 7billion people on this planet be deluded by a fairy tale?
responsibility man.. c'mon
But atheism isn't a religion...it's simply a disbelief in a supernatural being.
You are right in that everybody should make up their own mind on wether they want to believe in a God or spiritual being or not.
And that's fine by me.
I choose not to believe because i have never seen a speck of proof of a supernatural being and i just don't do well with faith based matters. I am way to involved in science and evolution to buy the biblical stories of creation, etc.
But atheism works for me, doesn't mean it has to work for everybody.