Why would the writers of the bible make it up?
At first I still wanted to believe.
I have been reading this site non-stop and I have finally accepted that there is no god.
But one thing keeps calling me back and I need help. Why would the writers of the bible make it up? Most of them never met. I know it's supposed to be "divine," but what's the real answer?
Pease leave me a comment.
Ronnie Snow
I have been reading this site non-stop and I have finally accepted that there is no god.
But one thing keeps calling me back and I need help. Why would the writers of the bible make it up? Most of them never met. I know it's supposed to be "divine," but what's the real answer?
Pease leave me a comment.
Ronnie Snow
Comments
People 5K+ years ago had a very different world view. They had to explain things wihtout many of the definitions and answers that we take for granted.
If you look at many of the writings of the time you will see that there is a commonality of talks about the sun, the floods, etc., all the stuff that would scare the crap out of us w/o the knowledge that we have.
People wrote what they thought was going to save their respective asses here and in the afterlife. Their proof was witnessing hurricanes, floods, sandstorms, earthquakes, lighting, diseases, etc. If you didn't have any knowledge of why these things were happening, you would invent some answers to save yourself. People did and people believed. The beliefs became tradition.
Thats my best shot in five minutes.
Jonathan
If there was a historical man that Jesus was moddled off of, perhaps his follwers made up many of the stories and ideas attributed to him so they could gain new converts. Perhaps they believed that if enough people joined together, the ruling government could be overthrown and they made up stories to gain the most followers.
Or perhaps there was a historical Jesus who said that he would return within the lifetimes of his followers, and he said to get followers. Therefore, they might have wanted to get the most converts. What better way to get people then to tell them what they want to hear?
But in the end, I think the reason some parts of the bible would be made up to simply try and push an idea. Even Paul admits in some of his letters that he lies and decieves to gain new followers to christ (or something to that effect).
So the idea here seems to be "Push the thought in any way possible".
It is because fiction is a favorite activity of humans. Why do we create theater and dance and stories and art? We cannot help but see the world in terms of storytelling and easy-to-remember fables.
If you try to place yourself backwards in time, say over 2000 years ago, very little knowledge about anything was available. There were no reliable means of communication, perhaps a message would get through by a camel carivan or a traveling tribesman, only then it may get twisted due to poor memory or bad rumor or misinformation or bad language translation.
Since scientific knowledge was viewed as from the devil, all they had were invisible spooks to try to describe. There were those very well known for their story telling and many considered them a prophet, a sear, so the rulers and kings of that time would seek out those story tellers(prophets) and have them intrepret their dreams usually they were dragged there by force and pushed them down before the king and told the profit to interpret the kings dream or else be beheaded or fed to the lions, so the prophet knew if he did not say something that would glorify the king in some way in the future, the prophet would surely be put to death, so if the prophet was allowed to continue to live, then he was viewed as a true bona fide prophet especially now by the whole entire village.
So now we have a true prophet to answer our questions, we must ask this prophet how we all got here and what is our purpose for being here on Earth.
The prophet says to himself, well there must surely be an answer, lets see...hmmmm. Oh yeah, invisible spirits, invisible beings, these things cannot be disproven and I'll be guaranteed to live longer if I speak about invisible beings and spirits and angels and ghosts.
And so the wise old prophet says God and the angels live above us in the clouds, watching over us every second of every day, and they know our every move and thoughts and also know the numbers of hairs on everyone's head, and this God is not happy with the way man lives, he lives in sin continually, this God is so powerful that no man can ever live up to this God's expectations, we need to sacrifice an animal daily to this God for the atonement of our sins, by sheding blood or by burning the flesh of our coveted animals so God can savor the sweet smell of animals burning.
But this wasn't good enough, we want to make this God above continually happy, God needed a human sacrifice soon to save the whole entire world from their nasty filthy sins, if we could just make the ultimate sacrifice, an innocent God worthy person to atone for our sins, one as innocent as a fresh born lamb, then we will never have to burn or slaughter animals daily to atone for our sins, a human being they thought, we need a personal savior, one whom is pure and comes from a pure untouched virgin.
Months, weeks, years, later perhaps!!
Lo and behold a virgin with babe, inseminated by an angel, their long awaited savior has arrived, we shall look for a sign, a star perhaps, any sign will do, the three wisemen came through proclaiming the birth of our beloved savior, they left having being in fear for their own lives and safety, this must truely be the sign of the living God on the most highest.
Yes it is confirmed now that the Lord Jesus has arrived just as prophesized by the prophets of the Holy scriptures. The long sought after and prayed for messiah has finally arrived. The King of Jews and King of Kings has come to save the world from it's sins, if you will only believe, thats the only requirement, nothing more.
If you will just believe, if you can convince your mind of this tale as being true, then you can convince yourself of anything you can imagine.
Therefore you have the true written word of God before you, now try to disprove what I wrote as being untrue. The Bible wins every time, because it cannot be proved true or disproved. It's a believers book, a false companion, it will do everything you want it to do in your mind, but don't expect any miracles or anything material or physical to display itself to you.
Don't expect to receive anything from the Bible, it's what you expect and don't receive that disappoints so many.
All anyone needs is a whole lot of faith, usually more faith than most people will admit possible.
Of course not. They wrote what the "thought" was the truth. Of course, what you "think" and what is "real" are two different things entirely.
The Bible is a compilation of many books, letters, prophetic "visions", poetry etc,. but just because the Council of Nicea took this book and that book and said,"we will make this the "Bible" and call it inspired", doesn't make it so. The fact is that MEN compiled the books together and left out all the other books and accounts that would discredit their agenda.
Is the Ko'ran inspired just because Mr. Muhammad was illiterate and had different men over a period of decades write down the many "revelations" he had? Is the Bagghavad Gita of the Hindus inspired? What of the Annalects of Buddha? Are those writings any less "inspired"? The Jews were very good at perserving documents and copying every jot and tittle down from one copy to another. They believed these stories that had been handed down by their ancestors just as people of all different cultures are. The Jews are not the only people who were good at preservation. If the bible were inspired and infallible have you ever wondered why it describes insects as having FOUR legs, the sun revolving around the earth, different accounts of Jesus' last words, different accounts of Pauls conversion, the empty tomb of Jesus, what it takes to be saved, how many people God killed after King David ordered the census, which creation account is correct, where cain and abel got their wives and just who cain was afraid of being killed by when God banished him if the only people on earth were his kin. How did anyone know what Jesus' words to his "father" were when he was praying ALONE in the Garden of Gethsemane? How did Moses write of his own death if he wrote the first five books of the Bible? Why was the gospel of John so highly disputed and why did it almost not make into the Bible as we know it? Why didn't Jesus have people write down what he was saying WHEN HE SAID IT instead of having the first gospels written many decades after his death when all eyewitnesses were DEAD. Why does Paul's opinion of salvation differ so greatly from Jesus'? Why does James claim that we are justified by our "WORKS" while Paul is adamant that is only by faith that one is justified?
The conclusion is obvious: The BIBLE is BULLSHIT! It has caused more confusion and dissention then any known book in history. Every Bible should be burned or used as rolling papers. Every page of every religious book that teach a race of people or a group of believers that they have the monopoly on truth and spiritual salvation should be destroyed. Every trace of ink formed into words of hate and bigotry that condemns those who believe otherwise should be rolled up around a cardboard tube and used TO WIPE OUR ASS WITH!
I hope I have been able to inspire you. My work is done here!
To try and answer your question. My first advice would be that you go and read the Apocrypha books as well as the Pseudepigrapha(or just a couple). These writings were done around the same time as the books of the Bible. This will give you an idea of just what was being written about, at that time in history. Also it was the council of Nicea who assembled the writings we have today called the Bible. All of this stuff is available online for reading. I recommend you look into it for yourself and don't take my word for it. Then you will know the facts.
You said that you wanted to believe.
Why?
Do you want to believe it because it sounds nice, or because someone said it was true? Do you want to know the truth?
Many times a persons motives dictate their beliefs.
Consider this. If there is a God and he/it is anywhere near as powerful as people try to say, don't you think he would be just a little smarter than the tales of the Bible and Koran, etc would have you think.????
Personallly, I like aro-religion.org better. Less BS, more sense. But, hey, thats just me.
N.
First of all, there really wasn't "the bible" originally. There were scriptures. And yes, there were people who wrote things into the scriptures that were false. Some people wrote scriptures many many years after the "events" supposedly took place. Then, later on, committees were formed and they decided what parts were in, and what parts were out, of a book we not call "the bible."
In medieval times, priests and other clergy were the only people who could understand what the bible said. They wrote their own stuff next to the verses of the bible, called "glosses." This is where much of what many believe to be part of the bible comes from. Later on, some of this stuff is considered to be "canon," meaning real religious information. Stuff like Satan being this one evil person, when there simply is not one guy who did anything against God's wishes. Or other things like the Antichrist being the same as Satan, born as a Jew of a virgin woman who mated with satan--that's not in scrupture. Lucifer the fallen angel--that's not in the bible, either.
In medieval days, they had "truthiness" before Stephen COlbert coined the term. They believed there was two kinds of truth: the actual material truth, and what they considered to be a "deeper truth," which was basically whatever the ruling class wanted it to be. At the time, religion was the ruling class. So writing in something good and interesting that doesn't exist in scripture was more true than scripture, I suppose.
Going back to the scripture days--the scripture was recorded and developed over a long enough time that it developed a life of its own much bigger than any urban lengend could ever be. "Gospel" was created from a people who considered divine revelation to be deep truth. And divine revelation came from a people who were often sick with fever, drank more alcohol than the dirty water they could come by, and who frankly took "herbal help." If that could help them get closer to God, well, who wouldn't smoke a little, eh?
-Ronnie
Someone must have really wronged you to take on board such a lunatic idea..
or maybe you just want to do what you want.. and come up with an excuse for doing what you want..
either way its sad..
Man i feel sad that you decided to choose to not believe, one day when you stand before God.. you will regret it badly..(So based upon a particle of thought(a belief that is,) a God whom created the whole universe, somehow this God will judge you based upon a particle of thought that you've somehow allowed yourself to believe, this belief is what is most important to this God? Guess what? Before 1492, not one person in the united states believed in God or Jesus, what is God going to do with that?)
Someone must have really wronged you to take on board such a lunatic idea..(So not having a belief is lunatic? Whereas believing in ghosts, holy spirits, virgin birth, angels, blessings, miracles, heaven and hell, prayer, talking snake, burning bush, talking donkey, Noah's Ark, etc. is not lunatic, this is wise thinking according to you?)
or maybe you just want to do what you want.. and come up with an excuse for doing what you want..(or maybe he has weighed the evidence and have found the Bible to be false and unbelievable and has finally came to his real senses, much not like you!)
either way its sad...(yes it is sad to see so many people in 2006 in the 21st century willing to give up their common sense in order to believe in something that cannot possibly be real nor even remotely be proven and most of those folks just like you, have believed, based mainly out of FEAR and threats of Hell, your decission to believe was not based on common sense and human reasoning or evidence, it was based on emotional fear, if you deny this then you are a total liar yourself!)
Thom Paine said 'All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.' but he wasn't the first to comment as such...
For example Seneca the Younger pointed out "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." and he was dust long before dear old Thom was born.
I think the kernel of why religion is founded is there :)
Love and kisses
Grandpa Harley
If you read the early parts of the OT, the then nameless God is running scared. Man was thrown out of Eden to prevent him becoming immortal, languages were confused to prevent man being able to work together and threaten God... and all the time God demanded worship, praise, sacrifice and unquestioning loyalty.
So, I'd posit that, if he exists in the form espoused, then he needs us more than we need him, and we could destry him at any time... if we could get our act together...
But, two things I feel sure of are:
(1) No religion has a lock on Truth™ because god, if such exists, is beyond human understanding, and
(2) The bible and the christian doctrine are man-made (as many of the above comments explain) and anyone who insists that they are absolute Truth™ is either uneducated, deluded, or simply lying.
A funny thing about christians who try to foist their beliefs on others is that when they are unable to overcome the historical facts of how the bible and christianity actually came into being, they will argue “But what about all the biblical prophecies that came true?” Then, the rational thinker points out that no prophecies came true because the bible was edited over centuries by men with political agendas who tweaked the new testament in an attempt to concur with older scriptures and that other so-called prophecies (such as the 20th century creation of the state of Israel in the “holy land”) were actually self-fulfilling prophecies engineered by humans who so wanted to prove biblical Truth™.
Then, as a last resort, the True Believer™ will declare something like, “But we know that god is real because there had to be a creator.” Actually, we don’t “KNOW” this at all, but, even if we accept the possibility of a creator, that in no way implies that it is the one depicted in the christian bible or in any other man-made representation of god. That is, you simply can’t get here from there without making a so-called “leap of faith.”
No, thank you, I’m not going to place faith in a 2000 year-old book as the be-all and end-all. (That’s idolatry and actually stunts spiritual growth.) I’d rather use my rational, thinking mind.
The reason they "made it up" is pretty simple. The priesthood of such and such a religion who wants to have power over the people will do 3 things to stay in power. They are : fear, guilt and rules. Even if you eliminate 2 of the 3, you can still have power over someone. That is why the scriptures were written in such ways. But, also, if you examine their claims for how the physical world works (science) and realize it is complete nonsense, then how much MORE would their "spiritual" world views also be nonsense? Imagine if Joseph Smith or Jim Jones lived 2000 years ago, and you can see why and how "Jesus" may have been the right idea at the right time to take off as it did. You probably are intelligent enough to know Joseph Smith and Jim Jones were bad guys who gave stupid advice and taught even more ridiculous ideas. Yet, if their small band of followers continued their "message" after a few generations, it would grow and if the political scenario was just right, they could have used it to their advantage.
Don't forget, parents "make up" Santa Claus and happily tell their children he is real. Some do it to keep their children's behavior in check, with promises of xmas presents. Others do it, so their children have something to look forward to every year. But it is a more innocent version of why people would make up the things in the bible. I'm glad that you were able to wake up from the long sleep of the godman Matrix.
"...one day when you stand before God.. you will regret it badly.."
My question to you is: do you have any evidence that one day Ronnie will actually "stand before God?" Do you have anything without referring to the Bible? If not your argument sounds like "you better do this or my Dad is gonna beat you up."
Alan
"The first Christian. All the world still believes in the authorship of the "Holy Spirit" or is at least still affected by this belief: when one opens the Bible one does so for "edification."... That it also tells the story of one of the most ambitious and obtrusive of souls, of a head as superstitious as it was crafty, the story of the apostle Paul--who knows this , except a few scholars? Without this strange story, however, without the confusions and storms of such a head, such a soul, there would be no Christianity...
That the ship of Christianity threw overboard a good deal of its Jewish ballast, that it went, and was able to go, among the pagans--that was due to this one man, a very tortured, very pitiful, very unpleasant man, unpleasant even to himself. He suffered from a fixed idea--or more precisely, from a fixed, ever-present, never-resting question: what about the Jewish law? and particularly the fulfillment of this law? In his youth he had himself wanted to satisfy it, with a ravenous hunger for this highest distinction which the Jews could conceive - this people who were propelled higher than any other people by the imagination of the ethically sublime, and who alone succeeded in creating a holy god together with the idea of sin as a transgression against this holiness. Paul became the fanatical defender of this god and his law and guardian of his honor; at the same time, in the struggle against the transgressors and doubters, lying in wait for them, he became increasingly harsh and evilly disposed towards them, and inclined towards the most extreme punishments. And now he found that--hot-headed, sensual, melancholy, malignant in his hatred as he was-- he was himself unable to fulfill the law; indeed, and this seemed strangest to him, his extravagant lust to domineer provoked him continually to transgress the law, and he had to yield to this thorn.
Is it really his "carnal nature" that makes him transgress again and again? And not rather, as he himself suspected later, behind it the law itself, which must constantly prove itself unfulfillable and which lures him to transgression with irresistable charm? But at that time he did not yet have this way out. He had much on his conscience - he hints at hostility, murder, magic, idolatry, lewdness, drunkenness, and pleasure in dissolute carousing - and... moments came when he said to himself:"It is all in vain; the torture of the unfulfilled law cannot be overcome."... The law was the cross to which he felt himself nailed: how he hated it! how he searched for some means to annihilate it--not to fulfill it any more himself!
And finally the saving thought struck him,... "It is unreasonable to persecute this Jesus! Here after all is the way out; here is the perfect revenge; here and nowhere else I have and hold the annihilator of the law!"... Until then the ignominious death had seemed to him the chief argument against the Messianic claim of which the new doctrine spoke: but what if it were necessary to get rid of the law?
The tremendous consequences of this idea, of this solution of the riddle, spin before his eyes; at one stroke he becomes the happiest man; the destiny of the Jews--no, of all men--seems to him to be tied to this idea, to this second of its sudden illumination; he has the thought of thoughts, the key of keys, the light of lights; it is around him that all history must revolve henceforth. For he is from now on the teacher of the annihilation of the law...
This is the first Christian, the inventor of Christianity. Until then there were only a few Jewish sectarians.
from Nietzsche's Daybreak, s.68, Walter Kaufmann transl."
Great site for other quotes:
http://www.pitt.edu/~wbcurry/nietzsche.html
1) It's not always really lying. Josephus' stuff is sometimes also quite naive.
2) Why did the writers of other gospels and holy scriptures lie?
3) It is a good, attractive lie. I like the idea that there are powers that can resurrect me. I like the idea that evil on earth will be balanced by good in afterlife.
4) The gospel writers depend on other (not reliable) people. How did Matthew know that Pilate's wife dreamt (Matthew 27:19)?
5) In the case that the people around a certain Jesus figure don't equal the gospel writers, the stories are about a hero in the past. Exaggerated.
6) Religions that would not take a certain amount of belief but just common sense wouldn't survive until now.
To start with...
You are not alone in that desire Ronnie. People through time have simply wanted to believe. Believing adds a false sense of belonging and a false sense of order. The difference between you and those other people is that you didn't simply accept something simply because the notion of it felt so good.
The majority of people today simply accept religion because its what they were indoctrinated into from a very young age. They've been conditioned not to question it. They don't want to question it. Even when shown that what they believe is a lie they will rationalize it to themselves to continue accepting it.
This is the followers! The believers! They are ripe for the picking and organized religion simply had to come up with a few ritualistic rules and everyone fell right into line.
Look at the books of the new testament. The stories of Jesus from several different points of view with several different goals in mind. The early stories did not emphasize miracles of jesus. That grew with time and retelling. Chronologically the stories of Christ and miracles grew, each building upon the other.
It gives the appearence of people working together to tell a truth, but in reality they simply work together to add to the same story because each person has a different perspective.
Ask L. Ron Hubbard,..or Rev. Moon
etc.,....etc!
Ronnie the bible is just a compilation of old Egyptian myths.
For instance ,the ten commandments were written in the "book of the dead" hundreds of years before the old testament.
Jesus is just one of almost twenty ascending and descending god-men in history.(all before him)
Go to your local bookstore and check-out the many books exposing the credibility of the O.T and N.T.,..your confusion will cease!
Like the bible, the places might be real, but any likeness to persons living or dead is entirely coincidental.
I have recently undergone a huge discussion about the Bible with a friend of mine, a serious Bible scholar. I am an atheist. I never really cared so much about religious matters but i undertook the challenge to learn about the origin of the Bible and lots more. And i can tell you with total certainty that the original authors of the Old Testament 'borrowed' the bible stories (genesis, Noah, etc.) from older religions. There is no doubt in my mind.
The authors of the Bible lived in the same area as the older religons that came before them and they had access to the old mythical stories. They remodeled them, that's all.
I am not sure if this was done with malice in mind or if that's just what happens with the old fables...they get recycled.
The old testament is certainly just a collection of old pagan stories and myth. The God of the old tetstament also shows way too many human emotions which makes the whole thing suspect from the get go.
The new testament is another thing alltogether. It seems more manipulative than the old testament (aside from the same old brainwashing techniques).
The gospels, suposedly written by jesus's apostles are in serious doubts. Wether jesus ever existed as a historical figure is totally in doubt now.
I look at this whole matter as a historian would, trying to learn the truth behind the matter.
Most people are emotionally too involved in their beliefs or religions to be objective about this.
The christian God is insane.
I would say they wanted power, position, riches, and women. They found a way to keep the mindless masses in line and they wanted to give them a way to live by the laws they wanted to create. Throught the years of murder and subjication of the masses has led us to a place we see the large influence of the few over the many. They get them becasue no one knows what happens when you die and people want to believe tht there has to be more than just this. I would suggest yo read MArk Twain's " letters from earth" they add common sense to the thought's on the after life.