I am confused, and I am a Christian still (maybe)
Sent in by Naudia
I am confused. I am a Christian still (maybe). I have been browsing this site for a year or 2 now I guess. I have had a lot of questions and read many more things on this site that has disturbed me to the point of lots of research. I have found an answer that has been satisfying for me at least to most of the questions that I have been faced with about the Bible's authority in our lives.
I however can not make myself truly believe without doubt about Christ anymore. I can not see how we can trust the way the Bible was canonized. I'm speaking of the canonization of the New Testament. I am scared because I don't want to burn in hell. Which I suspect is why the majority of Christians actually came to Christianity in the first place. I am afraid that if I come to the conclusion Christ is a fabrication and I am wrong then
I will burn in Hell for eternity or for however long it is.
Does anyone have any information or know where I can read more about the authenticity of the 4 gospels?
I read that Most of the early church fathers accepted the 4 gospels as being authentic but had problems with a lot of the other books in the New testament. I guess if the 4 gospels are authentic then that is grounds to keep believing. I guess because this all so confusing and giving me a freaking headache. A lot of my family look at me as a degenerate because I have questions and read anything besides the KJV of the Bible and this makes me feel ashamed of myself but I can't shake the questions.
Has any of the ex Christians here ever been deeply into their faith before leaving? Has anyone here experienced supernatural things that kept them from leaving the faith? If yes can you provide me with examples.
This is my story:
I myself may sound crazy but I actually experienced demonization. I was really depressed for a long time because I thought I had committed blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I was and still am completely normal and do not, nor have ever, had problems with mental illness. I have even had myself checked out. Well one day I went to church and a lady who calls herself a prophet called me forth and said God told her to pray for me. When I went forward she said , "Satan leave this girl ( I was about 22 at the time) alone in Jesus Name. When she mentioned the name Jesus my body bent over by itself in a submissive bow. Every time she said it that happened to me. I have never in my life been the type of person to make a scene or draw attention to myself so this was embarrassing to me. But I was bowing over at the name of Jesus and my head started shaking NO and I started crying but it was not me crying. I literally for the first time In my life felt something intelligent inside of my body that I had no idea was there before. This scared the crap out of me. Anyways I felt that whatever was inside of me was terrified of the Name of Jesus and it was getting ready to come out upon the insistence of the woman using the name of Jesus. But she stopped and when I approached her about what was going on she did not believe me and a lot of the people in my church did not. I eventually left that church and have not been a regular church goer since. Basically to this day I can not go into a church without demonic supernatural things happening to me. It doesn't happen unless I go around praise and worship and church settings. It can not be psychological because I started speaking in weird languages and said some things in Italian and Spanish that were confirmed by my husband who speaks Spanish fluently and knows a little Italian I also have predicted small immediate future events while in these states that have come true. I have had Medical checkups and also Cat scans and MRI's to see if anything was wrong with my brain. Nothing wrong physically or mentally except some allergies and chemical sensitivities. I just know what has happened to me is real and not a mental illness. I have found other Christians who have gone through the same thing but no one that is an EX Christian.
Has anyone here experienced anything like this and still lost their faith?
I really need to talk to someone who has gone through similar things.
This may sound like a movie or the rantings of a crazy person but I swear that it is true and this keeps me thinking that Christ is real.
However I don't understand how the bible can be trusted considering the way it came together.
I am confused. I am a Christian still (maybe). I have been browsing this site for a year or 2 now I guess. I have had a lot of questions and read many more things on this site that has disturbed me to the point of lots of research. I have found an answer that has been satisfying for me at least to most of the questions that I have been faced with about the Bible's authority in our lives.
I however can not make myself truly believe without doubt about Christ anymore. I can not see how we can trust the way the Bible was canonized. I'm speaking of the canonization of the New Testament. I am scared because I don't want to burn in hell. Which I suspect is why the majority of Christians actually came to Christianity in the first place. I am afraid that if I come to the conclusion Christ is a fabrication and I am wrong then
I will burn in Hell for eternity or for however long it is.
Does anyone have any information or know where I can read more about the authenticity of the 4 gospels?
I read that Most of the early church fathers accepted the 4 gospels as being authentic but had problems with a lot of the other books in the New testament. I guess if the 4 gospels are authentic then that is grounds to keep believing. I guess because this all so confusing and giving me a freaking headache. A lot of my family look at me as a degenerate because I have questions and read anything besides the KJV of the Bible and this makes me feel ashamed of myself but I can't shake the questions.
Has any of the ex Christians here ever been deeply into their faith before leaving? Has anyone here experienced supernatural things that kept them from leaving the faith? If yes can you provide me with examples.
This is my story:
I myself may sound crazy but I actually experienced demonization. I was really depressed for a long time because I thought I had committed blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I was and still am completely normal and do not, nor have ever, had problems with mental illness. I have even had myself checked out. Well one day I went to church and a lady who calls herself a prophet called me forth and said God told her to pray for me. When I went forward she said , "Satan leave this girl ( I was about 22 at the time) alone in Jesus Name. When she mentioned the name Jesus my body bent over by itself in a submissive bow. Every time she said it that happened to me. I have never in my life been the type of person to make a scene or draw attention to myself so this was embarrassing to me. But I was bowing over at the name of Jesus and my head started shaking NO and I started crying but it was not me crying. I literally for the first time In my life felt something intelligent inside of my body that I had no idea was there before. This scared the crap out of me. Anyways I felt that whatever was inside of me was terrified of the Name of Jesus and it was getting ready to come out upon the insistence of the woman using the name of Jesus. But she stopped and when I approached her about what was going on she did not believe me and a lot of the people in my church did not. I eventually left that church and have not been a regular church goer since. Basically to this day I can not go into a church without demonic supernatural things happening to me. It doesn't happen unless I go around praise and worship and church settings. It can not be psychological because I started speaking in weird languages and said some things in Italian and Spanish that were confirmed by my husband who speaks Spanish fluently and knows a little Italian I also have predicted small immediate future events while in these states that have come true. I have had Medical checkups and also Cat scans and MRI's to see if anything was wrong with my brain. Nothing wrong physically or mentally except some allergies and chemical sensitivities. I just know what has happened to me is real and not a mental illness. I have found other Christians who have gone through the same thing but no one that is an EX Christian.
Has anyone here experienced anything like this and still lost their faith?
I really need to talk to someone who has gone through similar things.
This may sound like a movie or the rantings of a crazy person but I swear that it is true and this keeps me thinking that Christ is real.
However I don't understand how the bible can be trusted considering the way it came together.
Comments
You will prevail against the religious hold and eventually you will be able to see the world a lot clearer once you take off the christian glasses. Believe me and other people will tell you, its nothing like the feeling of freeing yourself from religion. You will hurt a little at first but its well worth it.
And for the record, why would someone who loves you send you to hell for not knowing what to believe in is true. There are thousands of religions so......
I am atheist because I've never felt a "touch" or anything else from a god or demon. Had I experienced something like you describe, I can't honestly say where I would be today. I do know that in all my 62 years of living, I have never had any experience I couldn't understand. I might add that most of this time was spent as a christian. Still, a big part of what I am today is because I learned what religion really is: a heaping pile of bullshyt, piled high and served warm. Jim Earl
and you will find fulfillment in your freedom from mental slavery.
The mind is an incredible story teller. It is entirely plausible that your mind subconsciously fabricated your experience. That you may have uttered some things in a foreign language is possibly simply a reflection of your previous exposure to those languages.
You may find it helpful to discuss your experiences with a psychologist and be open to alternative explanations of your experiences other than that they are supernatural.
Try starting with the assumption that your experiences were not supernatural in nature and see where that leads you.
Cheers
Keep studying....you'll break the spell eventually.
It's not that hard to find info on the internet. Look up whywontgodhealamputees.com
LOTS of great info there on the bible!
If you ARE really experiencing the things you say you are, look up James Randi on google, go to his site and take the 1 million dollar challenge.
If you win the money, I'll believe you...otherwise, you are a fraud.
I highly recommend Incredible Shrinking Son of Man: How Reliable Is the Gospel Tradition? by Robert M. Price. Price's style is quite dense, and it takes some getting used to. But it's worth the effort. Price's insights are wonderful.
Best of luck in your search.
There was someone else that commented on an article I wrote on this site who professed a similar experience as you. She is no longer a Christian.
Keep reading and thinking. You will figure it out.
For starters, you say you've done a lot of research and that you've been reading here for a couple of years. But the non-authenticity of the gospels is spoken about all the time. If you had really been around for two years, you would have left the faith already.
Now, if your story is true, well maybe you should remain a Christian. Apparently, in the deep recesses of your mind you do believe that Jesus is Lord. So, go ahead, worship him.
As an alternative, you could go to a spiritualist church. You'll feel at home there around witches, psychics, healers, and all other types of delusional people, who believe everything you believe without the fear of hell.
- "The Four Gospels and the One Gospel of Jesus Christ" by Martin Hengel. Martin Hengel is one of the leading Theologians in Germany (and Europe). His book demonstrates the the Four-fold Gospels were accepted from the earliest times with known authors.
- "Jesus and Gospel" by Graham N. Stanton. Dr Stanton is a favourite scholar of mine, he teaches New Testament at Cambridge. In this book he establishes the very early acceptence of just the Canonical Gospels and their authorship
- "The Canon of Scripture" by F. F. Bruce is a very good start and he was considered along with C. H. Dodd the finest post-war theologian until his death in 1990.
- "Jesus and the Eyewitnesses: The Gospels as Eyewitness Testimony" Richard Bauckham is probably the premier Scottish scholar and has recently joined Cambridge this year in semi-retirement. His book seeks to demonstrate through mulitfaceted arguments that the Gospels reveal eyewitnesses material. He also touches on authorship.
- Another book by Cambridge scholars is "The Written Gospel" by Markus Bockmuehl and Donald A. Hagner. There are interesting chapters on the substantial support for the canonical Gospels and faint (if any) for non-canonical.
- "The Earliest Christian Artifacts: Manuscripts and Christian Origins" by Larry W. Hurtado is a a Professor of Early Christian Origins as Edinburgh Scotland. He outlines in a chapter the manuscript evidence for the fourfold Gospels as early. He also shows from nascent of Christianity Canonical Gospels were in a codex form while non-canonical were not- he suggests this is because they were not given canonical status.
I also have two lecturers given by Peter J. Williams from Aberdeen Scotland on the issue of canonization and the conspiracy theories that surrond them.
Hope that helps some. If you want further help let me know and I can e-mail you some further information.
As for me, I lost my faith as I embarked on my study of history in college. More than anything, it was how the gospels were not terribly remarkable compared to the other cult beliefs of the time. If you really want to know more about the environment the Gospels were created within, I recommend reading this essay by Richard Carrier:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/kooks.html
Finally, you should not worry about hell as you question the existence of Jesus. If he decides to torture you forever for questioning even though you treat others with respect, then Jesus is not a god at all.
I should also add if you want a popular book on the canon from a Christian perspective "Reinventing Jesus" is a very good start.
I remember before I starting Divinity three years ago reading some internet sites on the canon and started to question the reliability of the Bible too. Thankfully I was exposed to some rather more careful work. A deciding moment came when a Professor who was one of the most liberal of the faculty (he is an ex-Christian) gave a two hour class on the reception of the Gospels of Matthew and Luke. He was most scathing of the types of expression and distortions of the canon you see on the internet and the acceptence of non-canonical texts. Its really not anything to be scared of at all. I recommend you read absolutely every book you can lay your hand on and the chaff blow away. It will take more time than just reading one book or opinion. Unfortunately though most of the low draw, conspiracy theory stuff can be bought for 1/10 of the price than academic books can and has found a passionate and loud following by the internet community. Don't let that fool you though! If Christianity is the genuine thing if will materialize and come through the critics fire.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that you are being honest about your doubts, and about your experiences.
First off, you should know that temporary mental aberrations, such as hearing voices or sounds, or feeling a presence, or experiencing involuntary movement, or momentary paralysis, are extremely common, and happen to most people to one degree or another. They are not necessarily signs of a chronic mental illness, and in particular getting "mentally checked out" and given the "all okay", does not in any way indicate that what you experienced was therefore not a mental glitch of some sort. I recommend you get a copy of "The Demon-Haunted World" by Carl Sagan, which treats the matter (and many others) quite well.
I would also recommend you watch some of Derren Brown's shows, including this one in which he (an atheist) "converts" groups of skeptics and atheists into believers using "supernatural powers" (psychological manipulation) that cause the subjects to undergo involuntary experiences similar to the one you describe (hopefully I got that link right; otherwise, search around for it).
As to the reliability of the biblical canon, I recommend you read even just the first few chapters of "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart Ehrman.
I can relate to the "fear of hellfire" thing. I don't agree that that's how people become Christians in the first place; I think it's far more effective at keeping existing Christians where they're at. However, what you have to ask yourself is, how rational is this fear? What, according to the evidence available to you, is the likelihood of it being true, as opposed to the virtually infinite set of alternative possibilities?
If you are beginning to realize that the New Testament and its teachings may not be infallible; may not be the Words of God, then you need to take into account that the parts that specifically condemn the unbeliever to a fiery pit for eternity may also fallible and fabricated, as well.
- Lost Christianities: Bart D. Ehrman
- The Five Gospels: What did Jesus Say? The Jesus Seminar
- The Historical Figure of Jesus: E.P. Sanders
- The Birth of Christianity: Discovering What Happened in the Years Immediately After the Execution of Jesus--John Dominic Crossan
The Hell terror is a hard one to get rid of, I'm still struggling with uprooting it out of my mind.
Here's something for both of us to consider:Consider how vast and gigantic and wondrous the universe is. If there is a God who created it, this being is so transcendent, that it would take no offense that it's creations didn't offer it praise. Being "God" would be the ultimate form of ecstatic experience. If someone were able to play with reality like clay, they wouldn't care if anyone worshipped them or not. The God of the Bible's jealousy,anger, etc, show that he's no God, but a cosmic tyrant imagined by men to control people.
(For the record,at the moment I consider myself a deist, I think there's some kind of God, but it certainly isn't the Bible Tyrant.)
Good luck with your journey of truth seeking.
It seems like you're really looking for answers, and I believe you. You see, in some Churches, when a minister places his hand on a worshipper's forhead, they fall back or convulse or speak in tongues. I don't believe that EVERY ONE of those people is just faking it because they want to please the minister - or at least, they aren't consciously doing it.
You (and other people here) must realize that brainwashing and hypnotism are real. Now, maybe they don't work on all of us, but they can work on some people. I'm not saying that it's some kind of magic. I don't believe in that. But, there is a power of suggestion, and people can fall into it.
Now, I don't know why you did those things and felt those ways - I have never had that happen to me - but I believe that some people can succumb to suggestion, and I believe that you are earnest.
This has nothing to do with God, and doesn't prove Christianity in any way. And in fact, most of the people even of your church did NOT believe you.
But basically, what it comes down to is this: Are you a relatively good person? If you lose faith in God, then do you think that burning in the fiery pits of Hell FOREVER is a fair punishment? Do you think that simply questioning the existence of God is a crime that will put you in the same place as rapists and mass murderers? And if the crime of thinking critically WAS enough to put you in Hell to burn for eternity, then is that God any kind of being worthy of worship? If I burned forever for not believing (a torture infinitely worse than any committed even by Hitler), then I would have no respect for that being, and would further not gain any satisfaction from being in Heaven while nice atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, and others were in eternal torment.
But yet that's exactly the kind of God found in Christianity (and Islam). You know what? I bet that if you finally gave up on God, you'd feel more liberated than ever before, and your "demonic" attacks would stop.
Anyway, thanks for the testimonial, and good luck!
You're old enough to shed these fears. Fear is a powerful and primal drive that in ancient times could determine our survival in a harsh existence.
In this modern age, we are mot so well served by these deep-rooted drives and emotions. Because fear is hardwired into our brains it takes a lot more effort to break free of out fears - of the unknown, of life, of authority, of death, of loneliness, of failure, of humiliation, whatever it is.
The best way to conquer your fears is to understand yourself, how your body and mind work, and why they work the way they do. To learn how your body and mind react to fear, anxiety and stimulus both biological and psychological levels. About when brain functioning can go wrong, or when the brain is tricked or how it manages to fill in the gaps.
We all think out bodies are perfect and our minds are infallible, but nothing could be further from reality. Our minds can fail us in many ways and deceive itself some amazing ways - some for your benefit, and many to your detriment. However, understanding the limitations of your mind and how it perceives the world around you is the first step towards rising above your fears and anxieties.
I highly recommend reading some psychology books, including basic psychology, abnormal psychology, and biopsychology. Learn more about suggestion, self-hypnosis, lucid-dreaming, night-terrors, sleep paralysis, glossolalia, confirmation-bias, dissociative disorders, anxiety disorders, panic attacks, obsessive-compulsive thoughts, and more.
One of your best resources will be the stories on this website, there are a few that are similar to yours:
http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=01b30fcda4609249c21e6e33659e2529&showforum=5
more tales here:
http://www.users.bigpond.com/pmurray/exchristian/
Others may have similar experiences which they have interpreted as "demonic" in nature which have trapped them in their religion. Many interesting stories here:
http://www.exmormon.org/boards/w-agora/index.php?bn=exmobb_biography
And as to the hypnosis/conversion video someone mentioned:
Derren Brown - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Sq-YUdq1OI
some more of interest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haP7Ys9ocTk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lW2yKlNFFuU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1N_UHhMpzk
good luck!
testimonies involving demonic possession:
http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2007/07/supernatural-or-explainable.html
http://exchristian.net/testimonies/2006/03/voice-of-satan-voice-of-god-or.html
http://exchristian.net/testimonies/2006/05/very-happy-heathen.html
interesting story about OCD and religion:
http://www.successfulschizophrenia.org/stories/wwu.html
The exorcist sets out with the expressed intention of casting out the demon.
Everything is going swimmingly. The demon has got its bags packed and is waiting for the taxi.
And then...?
...and then, nothing! Despite getting a dramatic response, the exorcist stops! How come?
A sudden command from God perhaps?: 'God to exorcist, I've changed my mind. Abort exorcism!, I repeat, abort exorcism!'
Then things get even stranger! The would-be exorcist has turned into a sceptic all of a sudden! 'What!, you felt a demon inside you. Are you crazy?!'
Come on folks! You shouldn't be falling for crap like that any more!
This question is open to anyone who wants to be honest.
How many Ex-Christians on this site are financially stable?
How many still follow a moral sexual code?
THAT is what I would really like to know.
I will answer for myself.
As someone who is still not sure what to believe, I am poor in every way imaginable. I am a poor person with nothing.
My belief in God is because I must have hope and faith that things will change in my own life as I put forth my own energy to do so.
Yes, I am bitter about many things, but I struggle to still grab hold of the notion that Jesus Christ is real and the whole thing about Heaven and Hell is true.
Truthfully I don't know what the heck to believe anymore.
I just want things to get better in my own life before I end up homeless on the streets and crying my eyes out all day long.
If there is any well to do Ex-Christianer on this site who would be willing to help out an idiot like myself, please, I could use your help.
I quit school and was totally financially broke in 1982, I went back to school and got my G.E.D. and then went on to college for 2 years, after that, could not find a job paying more than what I had been making before college.
First off, to be financially successful, you will have to quit trying to please god, jesus, family, and friends and they will resent you for not trying to be like them, and you will have to quit making excuses for you and for them.
Here is my secret to financial success,(it was not college btw)
go to a book store or a used book store and buy Think $ Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill and you must read it all the way through and apply it's principles. $10 new, $1 used If you fall asleep reading it, start from the beginning and read it again.
If you do not read it, it's not worth a DAMN, I have gave this book to several people looking to get rich and they both confessed they have never read it and they are still in the same boat as you, poor as silt.
I read the Damn thing and I now have a net worth of over 1.2 million dollars, own 2 houses and retired at 48, I'm now 54 still retired.
The book does not mention a god or spirituality, it talks about intellectual honesty and how to be honest with yourself and it is only you, that can control your own destiny, not family, friends, holy books, etc.
The secret is you'll have to go into a business for yourself, it doesn't matter what you sell as long as there is a demand for what you are selling.
There are a million different ways to make a million dollars, this is just one way, but it works.
If you do not take my suggestion, then you'll just have to stay poor.
I wasted so many years of my life feeling sorry for myself and trying to please family and friends and god and jesus.
Now I please myself, and everyone else is just sitting around repeating stupid phrases like "The Rich Get Richer And The Poor Gets Poorer, I wish someone would give me a million dollars, I wish I knew then, what I know now, If I'd known I was going to live this long, I would have done better, I wish I could quit smoking, I wish I could had been born rich, I wish I had never been born, etc. etc."
Your own sincerity depends on if you take my advice. It costs so little, practically free..$10
To distill my understanding TaGR into a single sentence: "Figure out what you want and what you're willing and able to exchange for it; then refine and control your thoughts and actions to make it reality."
The first step to any accomplishment is desire. Not wishing or hoping or praying, but intention bound to emotion and manifest in action.
From my own experience, what's required is to start where you are, desire and visualize something better, and begin to take many small steps to achieve your desire. Fears will crop up along the way. When they do, acknowledge them and then consider how to deal with whatever problem the fear has pointed out.
The key is that you must do progressive and productive things in order to move ahead. Pinning your hopes on the beneficence of some external agent will not do it. *You* must be the agent of change in your own life. As Kevin said, only you can control your own destiny.
Your assignment, SureCouldUseAMiracle, should you choose to accept it (and yes, it is a choice): Start seeing the affluence you already possess -- Your skills, your knowledge, your mind, your body. And carry on from there.
Disclaimer: Career-wise I'm a perennial work-in-process because I love trying new jobs and learning additional skills. Positive net worth and all the tools I need to pursue my long-term goals.
"I wasted so many years of my life feeling sorry for myself and trying to please family and friends and god and jesus."
Spoken very truthfully, that is the same dangerous path I have been on. Time to make the change.
I confessed to myself about 1 year ago that I didnt believe anymore, after 17 years in the church. I just 'came out' to my wife and family about 3 months ago and it has been a struggle.
For me, nothing has changed morally. I love my wife just the same. I believe in monogamy and honoring your marital vows. I still believe that waiting until marriage for sex is a wise choice.
I still believe in telling the truth and that honesty is the best policy.
You have to realize that religion, especially Christianity, did not invent morals. The things I listed are common to the human condition and civilization in general. You will notice that most of the things I listed are nearly universal as good guidelines to life life by. My wife assumes that since I gave up faith, I have no basis for morality, which is not true.
What has changed for me since I left the church and faith is that I dont care what 2 consenting adults do behind closed doors. If they are gay or straight, or not married, it is none of my concern. They are not evil or immoral. I dont look at other who believe differently from me and assume the worst. I have truly been freed from judging others by becoming an atheist.
Financially, work hard and set goals. Think outside the box and for yourself. Seek lots of advice from many sources, distill it and make a plan. As long as you are moving you can change your direction. Sitting around with no plan complaining about one situation will never change the situation. Be positive and proactive and realize that it is all up to you and hard work. Your future is in your hands so make the best of it!
Try these books as well:
The Magic of Thinking Big- Schwartz
Rich Dad, Poor Dad- Kiosaki
The Art of the Deal- Trump
Go blow your hate and obvious immature crap on someone else. For the mature people on here that atleast gave me the benefit of the doubt. Thank you. Thank you for all of the resources. Thank you Ricky for realizing that I was not on here trying to convert anyone. I don't think it's much of a testimony for a christian to experience something so supernatural and yet come on here and admit to a bunch of deconverts that they believe the bible is faulty. I am very much sane to the rude people that suggested to go have myself checked out. And if you did not read the entire letter you can go back and see for yourself, been there done that. I think it would be a hard choice for anyone to experience what I have and yet see the bible as faulty and come to a conclusion based upon both of those experiences. That is why I came back on here to see if someone else had been there. And no, I did not expect everyone on here to believe me. I just expected everyone on here to actually be mature about it. For the large part of you that were. Thank you I do not take lightly what you told me and will read the recommended reading material. And thank you for taking the time to find the links for me as well. It really meant a lot to me. And to the hateful teenagers on here if you decide your going to throw some more hateful crap on here in response to me. Go ahead but your wasting your time I'm just going to minimize your name and won't read your response. Some people actually are on here for research and help and don't have time for your crap.
Most people here who have de-converted have left any belief in the supernatural behind. YOu are in a different place from most of us, you assume there is a god and are trying to find out how to sherve him/her/it.
So based on our assumptions that the supernatural world dons not exist, you can see how your claims of these supernatural'experiences' are not caused by outside agency, but created by the believer themselves.
I spoke in tounges, and have been 'slain in the spirit', all of which were to me at the time very powerful 'supernatural' experinences. But the reality was that it was all in my head.
You beleive your encounters with deamons were real, I cant take that away from you. But the brain is a powerful thing and people can, and do believe all sorts of things, but we know that most of these supernatural beliefs are irrational. YOu have seen movies and read books your entire life. You have heard stories and TV shows about magic, aliens, demons, angels, god, and everything in between. Your subconscious mind is filled with these images and I believe that your 'demon' experiences are nothing more than an amalgmation of all of these things from your memory morphed by your mind to seem real.
You are not crazy or demented. The mind plays tricks on us and sometimes fighting out of the programming is difficult. I hope you can continue your journey for the truth. But I would admonish you to begin your search from a blank slate and not the presupposition the God or demons exist.
When I went forward she said , "Satan leave this girl ( I was about 22 at the time) alone in Jesus Name. When she mentioned the name Jesus my body bent over by itself in a submissive bow. Every time she said it that happened to me. I have never in my life been the type of person to make a scene or draw attention to myself so this was embarrassing to me. But I was bowing over at the name of Jesus and my head started shaking NO and I started crying but it was not me crying. I literally for the first time In my life felt something intelligent inside of my body that I had no idea was there before. This scared the crap out of me. Anyways I felt that whatever was inside of me was terrified of the Name of Jesus and it was getting ready to come out upon the insistence of the woman using the name of Jesus [::]
It can not be psychological because I started speaking in weird languages and said some things in Italian and Spanish that were confirmed by my husband who speaks Spanish fluently and knows a little Italian I also have predicted small immediate future events while in these states that have come true
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Wow Naudia, that is some experience you had.
As someone else already pointed out to you, most (but not all) of us here have given up the idea of things supernatural being a part of our existence.
I know for myself, that giving up my old notions that there was some realm/dimension of the supernatural, took decades to happen; along with a whole lot of researching for each type of claim for the supernatural that has been asserted by some throughout history.
Of course, I'm stating my own opinion here and while I've personally concluded that nature is all there is for us to know about on this earth, I also have known many in my lifetime who have had experiences that made them sure that there is more than just nature at work on this earth.
Of course, not one of them could ever offer any tangible proof for their belief, as it was always about a personal experience that was never shared by anyone that could verify their experience was from something supernatural/paranormal or outer-worldly.
As I said, that is my own life experience, but there are some who have made it their goal in life to prove/disprove things of the supernatural.
James Randi is probably one of the more well known figures who has been daring anyone to prove ANYTHING supernatural and is willing to pay a million bucks if one can prove it true.
After his decades of research, after examining every type of supernatural claim one can imagine, after testing hundreds upon hundreds of folks laying claim to having some supernatural ability, he has yet to find even ONE person that could verify their claims.
Many many others have also tried to verify things like Aliens visiting us frequently, anything paranormal or supernatural, and while we have many con-artist (even on TV) that insist they have special powers, they either fail to prove them, or are unwillingly to do so in a testing format.
Most of us here know very well about these challenges to those claiming anything supernatural, and until we see some form of credible evidence to support a supernatural claim, we are no more inclined to believe such claims on hearsay evidence, than we are to believe in the xtian god.
Now, let's look at your strange experience, but mind you, I'm looking at this as ANY skeptic would do to ANYONE telling such an extraordinary story:
You say you FELT something intelligent inside you.
You did NOT say you felt something 'else' physical residing in your body, so I have to conclude you mean this intelligence you felt was not some physical presence inside you?
(I'm compelled here to picture the scene from the "Alien(s)" movie, where it broke out of the person's body)
So, let's key-in on this 'intelligent' word you use to describe 'something' in you.
Putting aside the supernatural aspect of this experience you had, how does one know if something outside of our own selves is intelligent?
We can easily surmise that a rock has no intelligence.
At the other extreme, we know humans are indeed intelligent.
However, in neither case here do we conclude if a thing is intelligent by our 'feelings' alone.
A rock sitting next to you wouldn't feel any more/less intelligent than a human just sitting next to you.
In order to detect intelligence that 'other' thing would have to do something to make us aware it was intelligent, right?
If a person is in a coma, one would have a heck of a time confirming intelligence by observation with just our 5 senses.
So the obvious question here is the METHOD that you determined this 'something' you felt was a thing of intelligence?
I don't see how one can FEEL a thing is intelligent, so that leads me to wonder if this 'something' communicated with you...a conversation perhaps?
Please, try and explain how you came to be so sure what you felt was not only not-from-yourself, but also intelligent.
Let's suppose for a moment that this 'something' was in fact some form of 'demon'.
Let's also suppose the bible is right and demons of satan really exist on this earth.
That makes me wonder a couple things... and always did in fact.
1. Why would such a demon desire to hide itself away inside a human body ?
What would be the purpose, especially if it wasn't using that body directly, as you indicate was the case with you ;as you said you has no idea it was inside you until this experience happened.
2. If such a demon feared even the spoken sound of the word "JESUS", if it had no choice but to obey a command of 'get behind me satan', then that leads to another question.
One would have to wonder why this all powerful god in control of the universe, would even allow a demon to posses an innocent human. It might make sense if a human made a choice to reject god and wished to serve the devil and his demons, but outside of making such a choice, why would this god ever permit an INNOCENT human to be victimized in such a manner by a demon?
If just speaking the name JESUS is enough to make a demon take notice (or perhaps flee the human), then one has to wonder why a demon would enter a body if one can so easily force it out with some very human action, such as just SPEAKING the name JESUS.
What power would there be in speaking the name jesus that would force a demon to make a quick exit (sounds more like a thing from witchcraft, where some incantation of words has magic in it).
Does jesus hear his name being called and quickly takes notice of the demon inside a human, where up to that point he had no idea this demon had been naughty again?
If he knew the whole time this demon was in that innocent human, then what is in god's rule book that allows demons to have such a free reign over innocent humans?
Wouldn't it make far more sense to have a rule like we see in the fictional vampire world where one has to INVITE them in, before they are permitted in?
Of course, none of these questions so far will diminish your self-assurance that the experience was real.
However, I do have more observations here to add (of course I do...LOL)
You say you do not know how to speak Italian and Spanish, yet you state your husband knows these languages, to one degree or another.
Don't you find it VERY ODD that your demon chose to speak for the most part, not in Hebrew, Greek, German, French or some Arabic dialect, but chose the very SAME TWO languages that your husband knew.
While you state your husband hasn't tried to teach you these languages and communicates with you in English alone, I have to believe that you can't help but to overhear him speaking these languages from time to time with friends/relatives that also speak them?
You also make no mention (that I saw) that tells us what it was you were saying in those languages you were speaking.
Your husband was there to hear you speak Italian and Spanish but yet you failed to tell us the translation of what you had said during this experience?
Don't you think what this demon had said would be significant to us in your experience. I sure do !!
Then you speak about "predicted small immediate future events while in these states that have come true".
But again, you fail to tell us what these small predictions were.
Folks make predictions all the time and always have. Most are very non-specific (vague) and one can easily point to a future event and make a claim that it fit the prediction.
Nostradomous's predictions were quite vague and yet many are sure he saw the future.
The other way predictions come true is if one makes a LOT of them and a FEW do come to pass in time.
So your very general statement (and personal belief) that you saw some future events, can't stand alone.
You need to describe in some detail what they were, especially if your intent is to convince anyone they were realistic.
You may not realize it, but we hear these sort of claims of predictions all the time, and none every come with credible evidence to back them up.
We NEVER EVER have some mystical type person come in here and make a specific future claim that something will happen and then it comes true.
If such things were possible, don't you think that folks like Randi would have discovered them by now, given how MANY out there make such claims of this?
So that means you would be like well, the FIRST to have such a power to foresee the future, right?
Pssst.... Oh, just in case your fortune telling power is real, how about sharing the lotto numbers for next week with us, huh huh huh?
Yes, I know you were looking for support from anyone that might have once thought a demon was inside their body.
Unfortunately (for you) you so far haven't found that similar experience here amongst our readers/members.
While I understand Naudia, that this experience felt all TOO REAL to you, you can either continue to conclude it had to be a demon from some supernatural world, and try and find someone else who also might hold that belief, or you can start to take a closer look at that experience to see if there was perhaps a more earthly reason for it.
If you can't demonstrate to someone not eager to believe this was something from the supernatural, then the only thing you have left as 'evidence' are your own emotions that made it feel real to you.
Obviously you can't convince most folks here (or in general) that what happened to you was real based on your own internal feelings alone.
So, if you are sure it was real and want real support, then I'm afraid you'll need more evidence for us to weigh than just those feelings.
How can we find out if your experience is truly of the supernatural, you might ask?
Okay, you said this, which is the KEY here...
"Basically to this day I can not go into a church without demonic supernatural things happening to me.
The one thing mostly lacking in proving the supernatural is finding something testable/repeatable.
Obvioulsy if every time you go into a church, you once again experience this demonic entity inside you and I'm assuming, also start speaking other languages and also start predicting future events, then the answer is obvious in determining your experience to be of the supernatural of earthly in nature.
Of course, you would have to have the courage to repeat that experience again, in the interest of finding out if your conclusion of demons is correct, or whether there might be something more natural at work here.
In any case, I doubt you'll find the support you're looking for in someone who went through your type of experience and still believes it was a demon and is willing to post about it.
Such a person would be a hard-find I think.
As a strong skeptic in the supernatural, my own opinion is that it couldn't have been some demon inside you and had everything to do with your own mind and nothing external.
Think about this....If demons were crawling into humans all the time, like the bible seem to imply, then wouldn't we be seeing this in the news on a daily basis today.
If it's a super rare occurrence instead, then the need/desire for a demon to play out this possession 'trick' must be small. If there are lots of demons in satan's army, then under what rare circumstances would a demon feel the urge to get inside some innocent person body, such as yours?
Wouldn't that be of the same chance as winning the lottery?
Why would YOU Naudia, be the winner of demon possession above 99.9% of all others on this planet?
I assume you didn't start praying to satan for such a 'gift' and did nothing hugely wrong in your life before age 22 that would warrant you the winner of that devil lottery, right?
Well, think about what I said, but I'm sure we all would love to see that evidence that makes you so certain your experience was un-earthly in nature.
ATF (who also wonders why the demon stayed inside you, after all that, and why it likes being there and what it's doing with your body for it's own self-interest)
I don't know how it would effect my life if I experienced something like, but i'm sure it wouldn't change my mind about the bible not being the word of a god. Peace, and take care,
Roger...A/A
Thank you for your response and I have questioned a lot of the same things that you yourself have brought up. Like I said in one of my post, I was curious if there was someone here that experienced the same things. If someone had gone through a similar experience AND deconverted it would be of much interest to me. I can not expect you or anyone else to understand nor believe me when you have not experienced anything of the sort. Nor do I care to convince anyone on here. I am not on here to save anyone's soul. The only thing I was hoping for was a mature response from anyone that cared to respond with something of a helpful nature (Which thanks to several people on here I did recieve but there were some really rude childish responses). And as a matter of fact no response at all if there was nothing of a helpful nature that could be offered. I know that when I do not understand something someone else is going through, I don't start bashing the crap out of them and start acting small minded. As a matter of fact when I was living as a christian I did not try to shove it down other people's throats nor did I make others feel as if they were idiots for not believing the way I do. Some of the answers on here reminded me of over zealous religious people ready to stone you for not having the same mind set as them. Which is pretty hypocritical seeing as though most of the complaints I have seen on here were toward christians trying to drop in and talk down to you as if you were too stupid to know what you were doing and you needed to be chastized to know how far you really have fallen from grace. I can't stand that about christians either! And I haven't even decided which direction to go in!
When I said that my husband noticed me speaking in Spanish and Italian I did not say that to exclude other languages. There were tongues being spoken in that we did not even recognize. I only mentioned Spanish and Italian because it was the only thing he could understand and validate. As for the other things spoken I have no idea. I don't pretend to know everything about the Bible. I am not sure that anyone can. Too many people interpret it their own way and are fully convinced their was is the right way. I think too much is left up to interpretation. So when the bible mentions tongues it seems to say it can be in a language only the Holy Spirit can understand and it seems to say it can be tongues that are other languages. Some people believe it's one or the other. So all I am saying is that whatever else was spoken could possibly not be a language at all but demonic language. And some were obviously, to my husband, in an understandable language as well. Anyways I hate trying to explain all of this in a few paragraphs over the internet because obviously a lot can be read into what I am saying. I am also not the most patient person when it comes to typing out long paragraphs. So I can see how by me not going into excruciating details can cause some of you to think I am saying something that I am not or vice versa.
Anyways thank you for answering me in an intelligent, straight to the point, yet tactful way.
The bible is the source associated with demon possession and speaking in tongues and then you happened to be in a place (church) that qualifies demon possession and speaking in tongues.
After two years of reading on this website and you still have a propensity to believe in the bible and yet get offended when someone points out how foolish you are to beleive in such nonsense?
I suggest you go back to your church and delve deeper into the word of god and continue to believe in ghosts and witches and demons, evil spirits, virgin births, people raised from the dead, walking on water, water turned into wine, blind made to see, miracles, angels.
You have no need to be on this website, because you apparently have a reading comprehension difficuty.
And yet you take offence at so little fragile comments, you need to go back to your church where they will love you for being a fool just like them, we do not want your kind here. FU
Here is a book you may like:
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3424478&postID=3707238532060353702
Anyway, if what you are saying really happened... especially if this woman was "just praying" for you and all this stuff happened... It seems that something supernatural is going on since I don't believe that everything you said is just "purely psychological". Yes, psychological things exist, but there is also a very real spiritual world out there.
Also about the person who asked you if you are "basically a good person"... by whose standard can anyone truly say that we are a "good person". Sounds a bit subjective. We have a tendency at times to omit certain bad things about ourselves and like to think if ourselves as a glowingly nice person.
I believe that Jesus is real and I wouldn't "check out" just yet from Him. Obviously something is going on. Keep searching for Jesus.
Actually, you are not the only person I have ever heard of that spoke in tongues and it be an actual language
Any-Mouse,
I assume you knew how to pick a nickname, but just chose not to, right?
I'm starting to think that you Anon xtians who post here, feel that if you pick a name for yourselves, that god will take notice of you posting on an anti-god site and hold it against you. On the other hand, if you post anonymously then you think MAYBE god won't ever find out.
What other reason could there be, well, besides being LAZY that is.
You say you've heard OF a person who spoke in tongues in an actual language.
Did you witness this event yourself, or once again, is this just rumors you heard?
If you did witness this event, then two things should have been verified.
1. That there was no way this person could have ever been exposed to that non-learned language, yet was speaking it.
2. That someone present could actually understand and translate what was said.
(I do believe this particular requirement was one given in your bible book?)
Outside of these verifications, all you have is the same thing you have for all your xtian hearsay miracles....NOTHING.
Anyway, if what you are saying really happened... especially if this woman was "just praying" for you and all this stuff happened... It seems that something supernatural is going on since I don't believe that everything you said is just "purely psychological". Yes, psychological things exist, but there is also a very real spiritual world out there.
So Doctor, is that your diagnosis, that something supernatural was definitely at play here?
And you made this diagnosis based on WHAT evidence?
Also, what evidence do YOU have to support your claim that there is a "very real spiritual world out there"?
So far, no evidence has come forth that proves there is one, so you would be the very first and I'm sure you'll get very rich once you show that evidence.
Oh, perhaps you believe it on FAITH then, if you are lacking any evidence.
Yeah, that works just fine...... for the gullible that is.
Also about the person who asked you if you are "basically a good person"... by whose standard can anyone truly say that we are a "good person". Sounds a bit subjective. We have a tendency at times to omit certain bad things about ourselves and like to think if ourselves as a glowingly nice person
So let's see, here you put on your 'it's subjective' hat, where you call for evidence before you'll accept a person is 'good', but for the supernatural stuff you claim, no evidence is necessary to accept that it exist.
It would be nice if you were a little more consistent in how you weigh evidence.
I believe that Jesus is real and I wouldn't "check out" just yet from Him. Obviously something is going on. Keep searching for Jesus
Oh, you mean the Jesus that must have allowed the demon HE created, to crawl inside her body to torment her, but only when she's present inside HIS HOLY CHURCH?
Funny, but isn't there some (unwritten) god rule about the devil and his demons not being allowed in any church belonging to god.
If god's church isn't a sanctuary from the devil and his demons, then a church just sounds pretty much like any other public building to me.
How wonderful that you do believe in this jesus character though.
I suppose you have met him and he talks to you all the time to, right?
If that's the case, maybe next time he comes for dinner you can ask him if Naudia has a demon inside her and if he say's yes, you can ask him for a favor and have him chase that demon back to the fires of hell.
I'm sure that you being such a "GOOD" little sheep...errr, believer, that he'll surely oblige your meek request.
ATF (who wonders how many of these Anon post are from YOU-KNOW-WHO)
Please write and tell me more. I'm curious. How many times did you have those "possession" experiences? When was the last one? What does your husband say you said? Were they long sentences or brief utterances? (For instance, was your husband picking out random words among a lot of stuff that sounded like gibberish?)
I'm just curious and want to know more.
Please email me, leonardo3 (AT) msn (DOT) com
Thanks,
Edward T. Babinski (editor of Leaving the Fold: Testimonies of Former Fundamentalists)
P.S., The TV series, MIND CONTROL by Derren Brown is fascinating to watch by the way, whatever you happen to believe. Many of the episodes are online. Use google's VIDEO search engine, or youtube.com
I also can share with you quotations by people who have tried to find evidence of demon possession, and found many more cases of a highly unconvincing nature, and cases where religious people killed one another out of fear of demons, rather than found evidence of any genuine indisputible cases.
Ex-christians do not suffer from what you have suffered from because they are no longer caught up in that cultic crap.
Most of us left and didn't look back.
"I wonder what you would have felt had you never heard of the bible?"
I know I would've been better off if I had never heard of or read the damn thing. That's for sure.
Satan is really "The good God".
Jesus/God is really "The evil one".
And the "Good God" who is actually Satan was framed and kicked out of heaven by "The Christian God", and the "Christian God" who is really the evil one, decided to take advantage of all the naive people of Earth and tell them that he is the "True God" when he is not. Plus he decided to have man write a book called the "Bible".
Think about that possible scenario.
What a better way to deceive people than come in the name of "The Lord" have yourself crucified, rise from the dead after 3 days, and tell people that you are the only way, and how they should worship, and follow you or burn in hell.
Just imagine if Jesus is truly the evil one.
To ATF:Thank you for your response and I have questioned a lot of the same things that you yourself have brought up
Sorry it took me so long to finish up this reply I started some time ago.
I'm glad that you're questioning things. PLEASE continue to do so until you're SURE you have the answer to this mystery.
> If someone had gone through a similar experience AND deconverted it would be of much interest to me.
I would think that most who have deconverted from Christianity would also have walked away with a conclusion that it wasn't a demon-experience they had.
I say that because as long as a xtian maintains a belief in demon possession, then wouldn't they normally be too afraid to turn their back on the xtian god?
This is NOT to say that a person turning their back on any god, would also give up a belief in things of the supernatural though.
>I can not expect you or anyone else to understand nor believe me when you have not experienced anything of the sort.
Well Naudia, you have to admit that it's a hard-swallow, right.
But that would apply to ANYONE making any extraordinary claim.
>Nor do I care to convince anyone on here. I am not on here to save anyone's soul.
I do not think most who read your post were thinking that you we're trying to convince us to turn back to god per se. That sure doesn't mean that some didn't take it that way, as we do get *bombarded* by xtians trying to do just that here.
Also, I'm sure some see your story as, at least partially exaggerated.
>When I said that my husband noticed me speaking in Spanish and Italian I did not say that to exclude other languages. There were tongues being spoken in that we did not even recognize.
So those other tongues could have been nothing more than gibberish, yes?
Which btw, from the articles I've read on speaking in tongues, MOST times that is exactly what is uttered...gibberish.
I have yet to read about a validated case where someone spoke in a recognizable tongue that they couldn't possibly have known. It's either this gibberish / baby-talk that comes out, or if some 'other' human tongue, then it's one they had been exposed to at some point in their lives.
You might want to search the web for articles on speaking in tongues, that aren't written by biased xitans.
Perhaps if you see that no miracles are involved in speaking in tongues, then you might ask yourself why your experience was so unique in that regard.
>I don't pretend to know everything about the Bible. I am not sure that anyone can. Too many people interpret it their own way and are fully convinced their was is the right way. I think too much is left up to interpretation
Putting aside the real history of the bible and the translation problems it suffered, the fact that we have so MANY interpretations and xtian sects, surely speaks volumes to the fact that if god was responsible for writing/guiding it, these problems would surely not exist.
It was these very problems of wondering who had it right amongst all the xtian sects, that opened my eye's that it just can not be a god written book.
If the xtian god was the real deal, why would he allow over 3000 sects of Christianity and far more individual interpretations, to have come about.
If you were this god, wouldn't you have made sure that your only 'book' to humans was being written and read correctly?
> So when the bible mentions tongues it seems to say it can be in a language only the Holy Spirit can understand and it seems to say it can be tongues that are other languages. Some people believe it's one or the other. So all I am saying is that whatever else was spoken could possibly not be a language at all but demonic language.
Firstly, what would be the purpose of speaking a language that only this Holy Spirit could understand. Obvioulsy if this holy spirit god exists, it sure wouldn't need you to speak in it's chosen language in order to know your thoughts. Shouldn't 'god' be able to read your every thought, at any time, under any conditions?
Unless some other xtian can translate this holy spirit language, then it doesn't benefit anyone in the presence of that person.
Even if some ONE person were translating, how could anyone know the translation wasn't being fabricated on-the-fly, just to make things seem miraculous.
The type of test James Randi would do here, would be to have the episode recorded on tape. Then two or more who were not present for the episode, but who claimed to be able to translate the holy spirit language would then independently translate what they heard.
Only if both translations agreed with each other would he suspect something supernatural was truly going on here.
Do you understand the concept of how one 'test' something like this now?
Then you suddenly switch from talking about the tongue of the holy spirit, to the tongue of demons, for a reason I can't really explain, hmm.
'Demonic language', as we saw in the likes of movies like the Exorsist, I take it?
Okay, let's run with that idea for a moment then.
If most 'true' born again xtians who speak in tongues, actually sound like they are speaking gibberish (which some ex-xtians admit it was all faked when they did it), and no one is around who can translate that tongue (which the bible seems to require btw), then either it's being faked or it's this holy spirit language.
In your case, we have one more possibility that you give here...The Demon Tongue.
Even supposing that these demons have their own unique language, one can't help but wonder why they would be speaking this foreign tongue not only through you, but unto the ears of the humans around you.
Humans, that couldn't possibly understand that language.
The whole idea of language is what...To communicate, yet this demon would have sounded like gibberish to humans, so what would the point be for it to use such an incomprehensible language?
To sound like a blabbering fool, ya know.
>I am also not the most patient person when it comes to typing out long paragraphs. So I can see how by me not going into excruciating details can cause some of you to think I am saying something that I am not or vice versa.
Yes, a lack of details leaves the reader to read between the lines, to fill in the gaps....much like one has to do when reading that darn bible book.
Because you don't seem to have a desire to type long paragraphs, especially in a public forum I bet, then your resources here to figure out your mystery will be severely limited.
In that case, if I were in your shoes, I'd be looking for someone in your life that you can talk with about all this.
It sure sounds to me like you should go through another church 'tongue' experience, but this time video tape it, so you have a record of what actually transpired.
If at some point in the future you find someone who can relate to your experience in a more personal way, then you'll have something to show them without going through that experience again for their benefit.
Just a thought there is all.
>Anyways thank you for answering me in an intelligent, straight to the point, yet tactful way.
I had to chuckle at your comment about 'tactful', as that is something I'm rarely accused of...LOL. But I suppose I have my moments when I can be {grin}
I did notice that others have commented since I started this reply awhile back, so I'm hoping you are making progress in your journey to find an explanation to your odd experience?
In particular, I noticed Edward T. Babinski seems to have information that might be of help to your knowledge quest.
ATF (Who hopes you eventually realize that "demons" can't exist, and sure don't take-over a human mind, nor minds of pigs doomed to be drowned either)