tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3424478.post114077994914404820..comments2023-05-15T03:17:32.214-05:00Comments on Letters to the Webmaster: A Question of Statistics?Dave Van Allenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08288914445803411893noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3424478.post-47924357242563469342007-08-26T02:46:00.000-05:002007-08-26T02:46:00.000-05:00Sue wrote:"There are 66 books in the bible having ...Sue wrote:<BR/>"There are 66 books in the bible having many different authors written during different times. This among other factors will be interesting in figuring out some stats. I plan to gather as much info as I can from “both sides” and make my own decisions"<BR/>---<BR/>Sue,<BR/>What type of 'stats' are you trying to derive to prove the bible true or false?<BR/><BR/>Are you talking about finding even more of these prophesies, that some 'christian' has used in this article (where it keeps speaking of "Probability of chance fulfillment")?<BR/> <BR/>Not to poo-poo your grand efforts, or question your talent for statistical math, but exactly how can such derived statistics be the end-all means to making your 'own decisions' whether the bible is true, or if it's god exists?<BR/><BR/>The first problem I see for your effort, is that several of the bible prophesies&fulfillments that the author attempts to connect, have no proof that they should be connected. <BR/><BR/>The second problem is that one has to make grand assumptions on some of these events of history, that can't be proven historically outside of the bible itself.<BR/><BR/>The third problem you would face, is that some prophesies were self-fulfilled by folks wanting such a connection to be made, thereby giving themselves some glory and fame etc..<BR/><BR/><BR/>Let's take the first example the author sites and see where it has problems with it's numbers. Numbers, that I assume you would need to do your stats with:<BR/><BR/>"1) Some time before 500 B.C. the prophet Daniel proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25-26"<BR/> <BR/>Sounds pretty amazing that Jesus was predicted to arrive, this far in advance, and it SEEMS the hit the nail on the head.<BR/><BR/>Now here's the flaw for the mystical "483" YEARS being used.<BR/><BR/>From....... http://members.aol.com/chas1222/bepart42.html#issref423<BR/><BR/>DAN. 9:24-25 <BR/>("Seventy weeks (70 X 7 = 490 years) are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins....and to anoint the most Holy....from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks and threescore and two weeks (7 + 62 =69) and (69 X 7 = 483 years): the street shall be built again, and the wall even in troublous times"). <BR/><BR/>This begins, of course, the famous prophecy of Daniel which apologists have seized with maximum celerity. Unfortunately, problems abound. <BR/><BR/>(a) The words "week" and "weeks" come from the Hebrew word which means 7 days, not 7 years. <BR/><BR/>(b) Unlike the RSV which says, "Seventy weeks of years", the KJV says "Seventy weeks."<BR/>These weeks are real weeks of seven days each, not years. <BR/><BR/>Dan. 10:2-4 shows as much: (b1) "I Daniel was mourning 3 full weeks." Would he mourn 21 years? (b2) "I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till 3 whole weeks are fulfilled." Would he have gone without eating these things for 21 years? (b3) "And in the four and twentieth day (24th) of the first month...." Would he talk about the 24th day in verse 4 after just talking about 21 days (3 weeks) in verse 2 if these 3 weeks meant anything other than 21 days, such as 21 years? If 21 days means 21 years then the 24th day should be the 24th year. The KJV does not mention "years."<BR/><BR/>(c) 483 years were supposed to elapse from the command to rebuild Jerusalem to the coming of Jesus. The decree of Cyrus to rebuild the temple and Jerusalem was made in 536 B.C. (Isa. 44:28) which is 532 years before the birth of Jesus in 4 B.C., not 483 years. The prophecy was 49 years short. <BR/><BR/><BR/>There are many contradictions and problems, in the use of numbers throughout the bible, but especially in the OT. <BR/>Then if you add in the many insurmountable problems of proper translation, how can one ever be sure one is dealing with correct numbers.<BR/><BR/>Now you propose to use questionable numbers to arrive at valid statistics, that will then determine in your mind if the bible is true or not, and I assume, whether it's god is true or not as well.<BR/><BR/>Many aspects of the bible are littered with problems:<BR/><BR/>It's science is greatly flawed (that is actually an understatement!!!!!)<BR/>Much of it's history has either been proven dead wrong, or can't be substantiated by secular history writers.<BR/>It's philosophy not only makes no logical sense, but it also contradicts itself throughout it's versus.<BR/><BR/>I would venture to say that fully, half of the bible is filled with problems that can't be reconciled, except in a true believer's mind, who then caters it's versus to his/her own desired flavor, while ignoring all the many problems it presents.<BR/><BR/>Sue, you sure can try and use your Navy math talents to try and reach a conclusion, but as they say in the world of computer programming, Garbage In----Garbage Out.<BR/><BR/>I would suggest to you that you look at ALL the problems of the bible to determine if it's valid enough for your own liking, but don't make your decision solely upon your skills with statistics. Your focus on just this one aspect of analyzing of the bible might blind you to the very 'truth' you seek to know.<BR/><BR/><BR/>AtheistToothFairyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3424478.post-40594519963835302812007-08-25T22:21:00.000-05:002007-08-25T22:21:00.000-05:00Sue Dickerson: "They will die in vain not knowing...Sue Dickerson: "They will die in vain not knowing the truth."<BR/><BR/>And, uh, not that I want to debate in length on what "knowing the truth" means, but... how does one "know" they found the "Truth"?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3424478.post-52811458034536098902007-08-25T18:11:00.000-05:002007-08-25T18:11:00.000-05:00S.D. The very book some are against tells us to wo...S.D. <I>The very book some are against tells us to work out our relationship with God and be ready to give a reason of our faith. That’s good theology.</I><BR/><BR/>Howdy, <BR/><BR/>A couple of things...<BR/><BR/>Firstly, having a "reason" to have "faith" is not mutually inclusive with "faith" being <I>reasonable</I>. <BR/><BR/>Secondly, where "Divine" revelation is concerned---the Holy Qur'an, of course, is a book that "some are against"....but yet, it too, tells the Faithful(Muslim) to work out their relationship with "God" and have a "good reason" for "our(their) faith".<BR/><BR/>S.D. <I>Deep down inside I think most of feel there is more to life than to work, eat, sleep, and die.</I><BR/><BR/>Why yes, of course most people feel that there's more to life than working, eating, sleeping, and dying....however, not everyone needs to get their sense of purpose from god-beliefs, and/or, the promise of eternal post-mortem "life". In fact, life becomes more special precisely <I>because</I> it ends. Figure it out.boomSLANGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03820077215682328240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3424478.post-71629527022878152892007-08-25T13:37:00.000-05:002007-08-25T13:37:00.000-05:00Tim,I found your post while looking up information...Tim,<BR/><BR/>I found your post while looking up information about biblical stats. I am a statistician for the Navy. I've wanted to do a study on my own and started gathering information on how people come up with biblical statistics. I grew up in a Christian home and basically believed everything I heard at church (but really had unanswered questions of my own). The bible says we are to come together and reason. Yes, I am a Christian. I have sincere, reasonable, and respectful conversations with an atheist friend of mine. I love talking with my atheist friend because it makes me research both sides of the argument. <BR/><BR/>There are 66 books in the bible having many different authors written during different times. This among other factors will be interesting in figuring out some stats. I plan to gather as much info as I can from “both sides” and make my own decisions. I usually like to perform the actual calculations before I repeat any stats. My specialty is looking for errors in calculations (missed factors and logical/statistical rule breaking). Unfortunately the reference for the Daniel prophecy statistic was left out by someone (see asterisk on first stat in #1).<BR/><BR/>I'm glad you ask questions. That shows you are serious about knowing the truth. As a Christian I think we do need to ask questions. The very book some are against tells us to work out our relationship with God and be ready to give a reason of our faith. That’s good theology.<BR/><BR/>My advice to you is to listen to people who are serious about the truth. Stay away from those who talk about worshipping sandwiches. Making fun of either side is a ploy in avoiding the truth covering up (excuse me) their ignorance. Those are not true truth seekers. They will die in vain not knowing the truth. Make sure your reading includes both sides and then make your decision. <BR/><BR/>The truth will be the truth even if all the people don't believe it and a lie will remain a lie even if you believe with all your heart that it’s true. It would be a shame to die without knowing the truth. Don’t live in vain. Deep down inside I think most of feel there is more to life than to work, eat, sleep, and die. Figure it out. I don’t know it all but I do believe and have a fondness for Jesus that is real to me. <BR/><BR/>I hope you find what you’re looking for. <BR/><BR/>Sue Dickersoncurious1https://www.blogger.com/profile/09379088753574656158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3424478.post-1141393598408896252006-03-03T08:46:00.000-05:002006-03-03T08:46:00.000-05:00..."prophet" foretells the future Cyrus. Scholars ......"prophet" foretells the future Cyrus. Scholars believe that starting from chapter 40, this shit is a later addition from the post-exilic period, and looks like Isaiah is seeing the future..."<BR/><BR/> You mean I guessed right! Cool.<BR/>So much for 'Dr' Huge Ass.SpaceMonkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08141918044867387223noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3424478.post-1141101141532278532006-02-27T23:32:00.000-05:002006-02-27T23:32:00.000-05:00Tim,Please do not let christians, or anyone for th...Tim,<BR/><BR/>Please do not let christians, or anyone for that matter, do your thinking for you. Do your due diligence, read and research. There is a lot of information out there. Go read and learn. The skepticsannotatedbile is a good place to start. Read books by Michael Shermer, Carl Sagan and James Randi. Pick and read a book put out by a Christian press and go and check the sources and read the items in context. That's what did it for me. I read portions of "A Case for Christ". I did my own "investigative reporting" and most of the book is false and/or misleading. Teach yourself critical thinking and be skeptical of all bizarre claims, whether christian or secular....lothartxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17792793518785566837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3424478.post-1141040332423395452006-02-27T06:38:00.000-05:002006-02-27T06:38:00.000-05:00He, he.Classic.He, he.<BR/>Classic.SpaceMonkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08141918044867387223noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3424478.post-1140876290804040462006-02-25T09:04:00.000-05:002006-02-25T09:04:00.000-05:00Woops I missed out # 3. (Why do I bother, since yo...Woops I missed out # 3.<BR/> (Why do I bother, since you asked about probabilities? Well probabilities and statistics are irrelevant when it can be shown that the whole scenario is contrived...)<BR/><BR/> This one is an issue that raises serious doubts about the reliability of the gospel authors themselves, especially of Matthew.<BR/><BR/> "...Zechariah declared that the Messiah would be betrayed for ...thirty pieces of silver ...this money would be used to buy a burial ground for Jerusalem's poor foreigners (Zechariah 11:12-13) ... (Matthew 27:3-10)..."<BR/><BR/>What, no mention of Acts 1:18-20?<BR/>Why not compare all sides of the story? - because then the cracks really start showing... <BR/><BR/>Zechariah makes no mention of any field, let alone it being used to bury foreigners.<BR/><BR/> Acts makes no mention of the field being a "potters field" or of throwing the money into the temple.<BR/><BR/>Acts says that Judas is the one who bought the field, whereas Matthew say's it was the priests who bought it.<BR/><BR/>Acts also says that Judas fell headlong into the field, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out, whereas Matthew say's he hanged himself.<BR/><BR/>So these passages differ.<BR/> Then what's really going on?<BR/><BR/>I think the Acts version would likely be closest to the 'original story', but Matthew, ever striving to match OT prophecy wherever he can squeeze it, picked up on the amount of money used, ie. 30 pieces of silver, and works in the Zechariah elements, ie. throwing the money into the temple and saying the field is the 'potters'.<BR/><BR/>So Matthew is once again shown to be the consumate spin doctor, and millions of people fell for it.<BR/><BR/>Millions of lives directed off course because of it.<BR/><BR/>Damn.SpaceMonkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08141918044867387223noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3424478.post-1140847124899185412006-02-25T00:58:00.000-05:002006-02-25T00:58:00.000-05:00TimHere's a useful link for you.http://www.infidel...Tim<BR/>Here's a useful link for you.<BR/>http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/prophecy.html<BR/><BR/>You can read it and judge for yourself.Perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10462113585749419367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3424478.post-1140811380610478572006-02-24T15:03:00.000-05:002006-02-24T15:03:00.000-05:00The person advancing the statistical crap is proba...The person advancing the statistical crap is probably regurgitating something he/she read and thought it sounded good. He/she probably also has deep-seated doubts about his/her faith, and seeks out junk like this to bolster it.<BR/><BR/>This being the Olympic season, I recommend whoever came up with this for the Gold in the Linguistic Gymnastics event.<BR/><BR/>Using biblical texts to prove other biblical texts makes as much sense as...well, it doesn't. <BR/><BR/>For many years, tobacco companies conducted study after study that "proved" conclusively that smoking was not bad for you, or in some cases even healthy! Get the point?<BR/><BR/>A source cannot verify itself.J. C. Samuelsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15419433044496164303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3424478.post-1140803423787584672006-02-24T12:50:00.000-05:002006-02-24T12:50:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Eric Wolfe Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13717371938799897619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3424478.post-1140803399952802902006-02-24T12:49:00.000-05:002006-02-24T12:49:00.000-05:00This moring I foretold myself of a great and delic...This moring I foretold myself of a great and delicious sandwich I would have for lunch. Then I made the sandwich as it was good. I am 100% accurate in my prophecies! Worship my divine sandwichness.Eric Wolfe Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13717371938799897619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3424478.post-1140797711188108782006-02-24T11:15:00.000-05:002006-02-24T11:15:00.000-05:00"Approximately 2500 prophecies ... 2000 ...fulfill..."Approximately 2500 prophecies ... 2000 ...fulfilled to the letter—no errors"<BR/><BR/>People can come up with statistics to prove anything.<BR/>Forfty percent of all people know that...<BR/><BR/>"...test for identifying a prophet of God is recorded ...Deuteronomy 18:21-22."<BR/><BR/>Verse 20 also says that the false prophet should be put to death, so I guess Jesus got what he deserved for falsely prophesying that the end times would come and he would return before his disciples had died, or their generation had passsed...<BR/><BR/>I won't answer all of your numbered prophecies but I can do some:<BR/><BR/>1) "...prophet Daniel proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem..."<BR/><BR/>This also known as the 'Seventy Weeks'. It's very complicated, but for a look at why modern Jews themselves don't accept it try this:<BR/>http://www.geocities.com/Metzad/Daniel9.htm<BR/><BR/>2) "...Bethlehem as the birthplace of Israel's Messiah (Micah 5:2)..."<BR/><BR/>The verse describes one who will be ruler over Israel, and the passage goes on to say how they will live securely and in peace...<BR/>except Jesus never ruled anything, and his times were anything but peaceful.<BR/><BR/>Also, if you take the view that the virgin birth narratives were added in later to fulfill such prophecies, then it makes more sense why Jesus was known as 'of Nazareth' rather than 'of Bethlehem'.<BR/><BR/>4) "...King David and the prophet Zechariah described the Messiah's death in words that perfectly depict that mode of execution..."<BR/><BR/>This is contrived bullshit (as if the rest aren't).<BR/> Psalm 22 makes no mention of a messiah. It is David talking about his own troubles - and is not even a prophecy.<BR/>Pslam 34:20 is talking about a 'righteous man' in general, not any specific one in particular, let alone a messiah - and is also not a prophecy.<BR/>Zechariah 12 is talking about a time when Israel will be feared by the world and will destroy all nations that attack her, etc. it happens to mention being pierced, but nothing about a messiah.<BR/>In Jesus day Israel was destroying nobody, and feared by nobody (except maybe the Roman governors who had a bit of a hard time... as an understatement.)<BR/><BR/>5) "...Isaiah foretold that a conqueror named Cyrus..."<BR/><BR/>What proof is there that this wasn't added afterwards to comfort the Israelites that they had at least been conquered by someone prophesied...<BR/>After all, when they returned to Jerusalem they 're-discovered' their old bibles again which none of that generation had read before...<BR/><BR/>6) Destruction of Babylon "...Their description is, in fact, the well-documented history of the famous citadel."<BR/><BR/>It probably literally is, just inserted into an 'earlier' text.<BR/><BR/>7)The 'rebirth' of Israel and the location of the nine suburbs<BR/><BR/>How hard could it be for them to follow the 'instruction guide' laid out in Jeremiah?<BR/>Sure, nobody realised what they were doing, until afterwards someone cries, "Hey, this is the same as that bible description... Whoah...!"<BR/><BR/>8) The creation of modern Israel was contrived by men, in Britain the USA, Europe, etc. who knew their bibles beforehand, who have been raised knowing such a thing is prophesied, and believed it must happen.<BR/> Why wouldn't they try to make it happen?<BR/><BR/>11)"...Elijah's supernatural departure from Earth was predicted... by a group of fifty prophets..."<BR/><BR/>That's because the pilots of his UFO had given them all the flight plan.<BR/><BR/>12)"...their foes were supernaturally destroyed to the last man..."<BR/><BR/>Fighting amongst themselves is nothing supernatural.<BR/><BR/>If I was more edumacated, and if it even mattered, at all, then I could probably do the other 2490 aswell. It just takes a bit of analysis and/or common sense.<BR/>It could be fun too.SpaceMonkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08141918044867387223noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3424478.post-1140782527022686152006-02-24T07:02:00.000-05:002006-02-24T07:02:00.000-05:00TimI suggest you have a look here:http://skepticsa...Tim<BR/><BR/>I suggest you have a look here:<BR/>http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html<BR/><BR/>I have seen the claim that not one single, solitary OT prophecy alleged in the NT actually was there, or happened.<BR/><BR/>Daniel's prophecy is the easiest to refute and yet is the most quoted by fundies.<BR/><BR/>Try here, too.<BR/>http://members.aol.com/JAlw/bethlehem_birth_prophecy.html<BR/><BR/>The JC birth prophecies use the name Emmanuel/Immanuel, NOT Jesus.<BR/><BR/>The whole claim you're dealing with is wishful thinking, combined with self-deception. Don't be fooled.Perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10462113585749419367noreply@blogger.com