I just wanted to say a few things to you in regards to your website.
From what I have seen here a lot of people talk about the lack of "proof" of God. The point of faith is to believe and trust in Him without him giving you a reason not to have faith. If you have any relationship don't you want your loved oens to trust you at some point without you constantly be doing miraculous things for them? At some point shouldn't they have faith in you as a person and for how much you care for them?
I find it very interesting that you take so much time and effort to mock Christianity. If someone were to disrespect your beliefs and thoughts you would be offended, yet you take full advantage of the opportunity to be disrespectful to the beliefs of many people who have not harmed you in any manner.
If you simply don't believe in Christ, why not leave it alone? Why the obsession? Either way I am sorry that you have so much bitterness and hate. It must be tough to carry that with you.
I know that very little anyone says to you will change your mind, so that is not my mission here. Rather, I want you to know I feel sorry for you and urge you to not be so grossly offensive and immature. You could spend your time doing many more productive things with your life and I urge you to do so.
Whatever you think Christianity "IS", I hope you may learn to accept it for what it wants to be and not what people try to force it to be. A God who comes down on a human level to suffer for His creation, is a God who loves everyone to a point he wants them to be able to be in fellowship with Him.
I pray for those like you who hold the beliefs you do every night. Jesus told examples of those who would hear His message but not firmly grab hold in his parable of the sower. I am sorry for whatever reason you became on those people and I pray things can change for you before its too late.
Either way, I imagine you respect "Freedom of Religion" and Religious Tolerance, so maybe you could allow Christians to believe what they want and tolerate them and not be hateful. Its people like yourself who keep hatred in the world, and it is sad. I do what I can to not hate others and to love them, it would be greaqt if you could do the same.
In closing, I hope nothing I've said here has come off as me wanting to be hateful, or ignorant, or anything else that you commonly assume of Christians. If it has, I do apologizem but just know that I don't even know you or anyone else on this site, but I have love for them and will pray for you all as I pray for everyone.
May God bless you and you find your way back to Him.
unsigned
These letters were published between January 2001 and February 2010. To view recent posts, go to The Main Blog at ExChristian.Net
61 comments:
FAITH = Fuck All Innocence To Hell
Faith= don't use your brain, just trust us!
Faith = folly of fools, absence of reason.
Mocking your faith? How "Christian" of us to mock, maybe we should mock you as you mock muslims with bombs and bullets?
Get a life loser.
CHRISTIAN..err UNSIGNED...errrr ANONYMOUS
I have faith in people I can see and trust. Having faith in something imaginary is futility
I was thinking of responding but what's the chance of this brainwashed, ignorant, pathetic "anonymous" person coming back to see our remarks?
I will say that I know peace and tolerance now and only hate, bitterness and condemning when I was a brainwashed, ignorant, pathetic xian.
Anonymous,
You indeed sound quite ignorant. You sound like a well-meaning 16-year old or so. I don't know what your purpose in writing here is, but regardless, you need to leave us alone.
Life will teach you a lot in the future. I advice you to read your bible carefully, pray a lot, and attend all the bible studies you can handle. After all that, you will realize that your religion doesn't make any sense, and you will come here to find solace with us.
Lorena
You wrote: "If someone were to disrespect your beliefs and thoughts you would be offended.." Uh, that's exactly what those "christians" do to us. This is one (of many) of my biggest issues with them. They show not one iota of respect for us at all. These are frequent personal experiences with "them."
Clearly, you have not read many of the testimonials here or you'd see where your comments are ridiculous.
Please don't put yourself out to "feel sorry" for us...we have never been happier or freer! I now have friends and relationships with wonderful people who are "real", caring, loving, generous, honest...all the things I have never found in "christians." We need not your self-righteous sympathy.
You have succeeded in proving our points here. We don't all carry any of the crap you referred to. I do feel sorry for you, however, for your lack of true understanding and openmindedness. Your self-righteousness and condesending attitude won't take you far, in the end.
Praying that the "scales be removed from your eyes." And watch out for that thorn in thine own eye.
I am normally a gentleman, but I have to say, this poster is an imbecile. The axiom "just accept it on faith" can be applied to anything and has no logical foundation to speak of. "Just take it on faith" is what enables terrorists to fly airplanes into buildings, you idiot.
If you simply don't believe in Christ, why not leave it alone?
Some of us have a hobby of trying to rid the world of people who are destroying it. Humans have brains, and we should use them to reason, not fantasize about a phony afterlife.
There is a reason we SEEM to mock your religion. If you have ever watched the more modern Star Trek shows you should be aware that the Federation's worst nightmare is the Borg!
Christianity can be compared to the Borg. The Borg's goal is to absorb every race that they encounter, to bring that race the benefit of being a borg drone.
Now it doesn't matter if that race believes that they are doing just fine the way they are. the Borg has a better world view for them.
We ex-christians would rather be free than become or remain christian drones!You have nothing new to offer that we haven't heard or seen before.
Hey, idiot, we didn't ask you to come here. But since your here, why not try using your brain for a little bit and read the bible objectivly. That perverse book extolling the atrocities of your Hebrew tribal demon ought to shock you into reality.
Faith is merely what you want to believe, and you want to believe in your Christian ideas because it suits you for several reasons. One, you were brought up that way; if you had been brought up Hindu, in India, you might very well think differently. Two, your beliefs make you feel good about yourself and your ultimate fate; it gives you warm fuzzies. Three, you fear to consider any other belief, because you have been told you will be punished for eternity for even entertaining the idea that the Christian story is a lie.
We choose to use reason to decide what is real about our world, because to choose mere faith is to be completely without a compass or rudder. The choice of believing in Buddhism, Judaism, Christianiey, Hinduism, or in flying elves is just as valid, when you have only faith to help you decide.
You’re going to pray for everyone on the site so that we can find our way to your god?
How about instead you use your ever-so-powerful-prayer to protect the children of this world from child molesters.
Or use your superpower to protect every woman from rape.
Or any woman from being forced into prostitution.
Or any woman from being circumcise.
Or anyone dying of starvation.
Or prevent anyone from killing anyone in the name of his omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent god for the trade of this life for the most vague of promises of a flowery, opium clouded, whorehouse of a heaven.
Until your prayer stops the suffering of the innocent, your prayer is worthless. Your god is worthless.
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to pray and he will starve to death praying for more fish.
You sound like a well meaning kid but let me just give you this piece of advice. Leave everything and get out! Remember what you had before you started going to church and go back to that. Or join the fight against religious terrorism, I don't care.
I've known alot of well-meaning christians and not one was better off in the long run. Your in a breeding ground of intolerance and hate.
Move on with your life and do something besides feeling guilty all the time. Paint a picture or grow a garden.
Your pissed off that people don't believe the same as you do. What are you going to do, key a cross in someone's car because they have a darwin fish?
Seriously though, just remember that everyone who's taken American Political History 101 knows that "seperation of church and state" is protecting you from yourself. Just letting you know friend.
Mikey Mikerton
Amazing...but not surprising: the original 'unsigned' poster leaves what is - by any other standards than yours - a touchingly sweet and reasoned plea for your immortal souls. And how do you respond? As petulantly as a envious siblings who've failed to come to terms with the rules of the house. Yes...while the other children make the best of things, YOU grumble, complain and whine -- just like little snot-noses. You should be ashamed...(though I'm sure you're not!)
Well (sigh)... I do hope you're happy. Once again you've failed NOT to disappoint.
I, too, would like to pray 'for all of you' ...but unfortunately I'm all booked up with people who are truly in need. You see, their problems are a little more real; so real, as a matter of fact, not to allow them any 'whine' time.
Sincerely...BC
UnSincerely BC, quit whining.
"The point of faith is to believe and trust in Him without him giving you a reason not to have faith."
The point of faith is to stall someone's thought process into ignoring all evidence contrary to the indoctrination,
- and there are plenty of reasons not to have faith, however they all rely on logical and critical thinking to be understood
- and faith won't allow you to go that far...
That's what it's for.
"If you simply don't believe in Christ, why not leave it alone?"
Haven't you read the words of Jesus?
He commands his followers to go out into ALL the World, and preach, bringing sinners to repentence. With the 'sinners' being everyone not in christianity...
Those who believe are saved and those who do not are Condemned.
You see, Christianity is the force that will not leave things alone - it wants to own the World, and everyone in it.
It deserves an equal and opposite reaction.
"Why the obsession?"
Some of us, like me for example, were raised in it from birth until full adulthood.
It was the only programming our minds had ever had.
It was the only way we ever saw the world, through the biblical filter.
It's who I am.
My brain follows those certain paths of thought.
Now we find out it's not true!
On a personal level - It's Massive!!
It really is like waking up from the Matrix. You want to get that goo off you as fast as possible, and get those atrophied parts of you mind into shape - for the first time ever.
It takes years of catching yourself thinking certain ways to retrain your mind.
It is a daily battle.
Mocking christians is just a reinforcement of that.
Humour helps.
This place is meant for ex-christians.
Christians are not invited.
So if they are offended then they should just leave, or not have been here in the first place.
That way we can mock to our hearts content and not hurt anybody's feelings.
It's not so much about bitterness and hate, as it is a striking realisation.
How could I have been so blind? It's so obvious, how come I never saw this before?
Why didn't I use my brain?
Aha! - because of that old 'faith' thing!
Don't think, just trust.
Trust? Never again!
Ever.
We see loved ones still living in fearful superstition, risking their lives, devoted to sacrifice and hardship - "for the kingdom..."
I don't hate my christian family - but I have a passion for relieving them of it's burden.
I hate the christian chains that bind them.
The same as for any other christian who is anything like I was - only following because the alternative was HELL!
When I see the politics of half the world (if not the whole world) being dictated or manipulated by religion, and those professing religion - it's miserable.
Religion needs to be finished with.
Humanity needs to wake up, before it is nuked to Hell for real.
Is that worthy of an obsession?
" A God who comes down on a human level to suffer for His creation, is a God who loves everyone"
Pity he never let them ALL in on it though, only those in range of an evangelist.
The rest default to hell, because no-one comes to the father except through Jesus - neither is there salvation in any other - for ALL have sinned and fall short, etc.
Why didn't bible-god make the message available to ALL instead of limited to a select few preachers who then had to take the STORY all around the world?
Ever heard of the 10-40 window? It's the area still left largely unevangelised (maybe it's been closed by now). So, all those people living as best they knew how, for generations upon generations, before the evangelists turned up with the "good news", are in hell now.
...yeah, right.
I bet even you, if you put your mind to it, could think of a better way to save all humanity from their sin than the method the bible-god uses.
How about reincarnation for one? Just the concept alone is enough to debunk the idea that bible-god is loving and merciful, because it is a system that would at least deliver him what he supposedly desires - that ALL men be saved... eventually.
Give up your faith, and your fear, and use your Brain.
There are levels of humanity as yet undiscovered by you.
"Yes...while the other children make the best of things, YOU grumble, complain and whine"
If humanity was to just accept things the way they are and not complain then we would still be living in caves.
& re. my last post I shouldn't have asked 'unsigned' to 'put his mind' to trying to think of another way to save all humanity than bible-god because that would be going against faith in the bible version.
"Most people would sooner die than think; in fact they do so."
- Bertrand Russell
"Either way, I imagine you respect "Freedom of Religion" and Religious Tolerance, so maybe you could allow Christians to believe what they want and tolerate them and not be hateful. Its people like yourself who keep hatred in the world, and it is sad. I do what I can to not hate others and to love them, it would be greaqt if you could do the same."
HAha.... the irony. Is it us that condemn all that disagree with us to an eternity in everlasting suffering. Is it us that start wars in the name of our God. Is it us that force our moral views on everyone else.
Grow up, use your brain, and actualy educate yourself on these topics you have taken upon yourself to comment on. You just might learn something you didn't want to. History doesn't look kindly on the fruits of christianity.
"The point of faith is to believe and trust in Him without him giving you a reason not to have faith."
Oh, right, just cast your gaze upward, allow your eyes to glaze over and turn off your brain.
"If you have any relationship don't you want your loved oens to trust you at some point without you constantly be doing miraculous things for them? At some point shouldn't they have faith in you as a person and for how much you care for them?"
No.
"I find it very interesting that you take so much time and effort to mock Christianity. If someone were to disrespect your beliefs and thoughts you would be offended, yet you take full advantage of the opportunity to be disrespectful to the beliefs of many people who have not harmed you in any manner."
Listen, twit, you came here in the first place, stop hiding behind your sanctimony. christianity is the MOST harmful religion ever invented. But then, you would never make such an ignotant statement because you know nothing of your history.
"If you simply don't believe in Christ, why not leave it alone? Why the obsession? Either way I am sorry that you have so much bitterness and hate. It must be tough to carry that with you."
You are not sorry in the slightest. You revel in the superiority you think being a christian entitles you. You are the one to be pitied for wasting your precious life. Are you aware of "Luke's" exhortation: "Compel them to come in?" I thought not. Again you suffer from the delusion shouted at you from the pulpit that atheists are filled with bitterness and hate. Any bitterness we have is toward those just like you, who keep insisting, like a little Energizer bunny, that we become like you.
"I know that very little anyone says to you will change your mind, so that is not my mission here. Rather, I want you to know I feel sorry for you and urge you to not be so grossly offensive and immature. You could spend your time doing many more productive things with your life and I urge you to do so."
I was wondering when you would get to the "I feel sory for you" line. That has to be one of the most repulsive utterances of the "true believer." Spare us your phony, cheap "love." Please get out of here and spend your time doing many more productive things with your life - I urge you to do so.
-----------
I was going to continue in this vein, but I just realized that I have to run to the john to puke.
Hey BC, (goldie?) get back on your meds!
Why don't we leave it alone?
Because there are non-believers out there who get S@#$ on by Christians for their non-belief, and they need support, and need to rant. I am sure if you were persecuted, you would want to rant.
Now answer me this.... Why are so worried about people who don't believe as you do? Why not you leave US alone?
Simple reasoning and logic tell us that their is no god or gods. Simple reasoning also tell us that virgins cannot get impregnated by ghosts who subsequently give birth to a Christian god in recent times, when one considers the age of this planet. As far a Christian faith goes. Faith is no more that a "hope it's true concept". Faith in gods is not a reality. There is not a single person on the face of this planet today who can prove a god or gods exist or existed. Simple as that.
Dear members of ex-christians:
The several anonymous posters and Cap'n Buck have planted seeds here and I have listened. I will be leaving here because I now realize the error of my ways. What was I thinking? Of course, the christian world view is the only valid world view. They have the full weight and support of the United States government. We will be caught up in the rapture soon and we will have our reward in heaven. Those were the last posts that I needed to read so that I could finally re-examine my decision to deny Jesus and I will be asking for his tender foregiveness, I repent....
Sorry folks, I dosed off for a minute and I was having this really bad nightmare. I was dreaming that the christians who came by with their pity messages were starting to get me to doubt myself (again). I dreamt that they were actually effective in getting me to re-convert.
Another drive-by preaching...
"If you have any relationship don't you want your loved oens (sic) to trust you at some point without you constantly be doing miraculous things for them? At some point shouldn't they have faith in you as a person and for how much you care for them?"
Your argument is profoundly flawed. The difference is that my loved ones have observed a pattern of behavior that leads them to expect me to act a certain way. Their faith in me is justified. The faith you describe does not have the same foundation of reasonable expectation.
Hey Anony-Mouse:
Go f*&% yourself:
"If someone were to disrespect your beliefs and thoughts you would be offended, yet you take full advantage of the opportunity to be disrespectful to the beliefs of many people who have not harmed you in any manner."
That is exactly the reason I am here. They did hurt me. They took away my childhood and set-me-up for an adult life of dissappoinment. Imagine how you felt when you realized that Santa Claus was not real (which should have been about a week ago, for you. Newsflash: The tooth fairie and the Easter bunny aren't real, either). Spend a few minutes reading some of the testimonies here and you will realize that most of the people here have been hurt, which you should have done before you posted. Try reading Deborah's story - she's clinging to christianity because it sounds like that's all she has left. She's been through a lot of hurt for your Jesus.
I'm sure that you formed your opinion about us before you even read ONE word of any of the posts here. You came here to preach. You are a bigoted asshole. Learn a little about Jesus, and with enough time and discipline, you could become more like the actual christian who posted in "to the passing christian" post on this site (Friesen was in his name) - you too, Cap'n Crunch...
"I, too, would like to pray 'for all of you' ...but unfortunately I'm all booked up with people who are truly in need." - Cap'n Ahab
Wow, you do not disappoint - Cap'n jerkoff. Still standing there with the "L" shaped fingers on your head. Damn, if only I could be more like you - I would be brainwashed, brain dead and a red neck - what a man amongst men...
Do your drive-by preaching somewhere else.
FROM A TRUE CHRISTIAN:
Even though I come to your Ex-Christian site and witness for Christ, you are the ones who are wrong.
I'm so sad to read about how you have been hurt by Christians.
Those were not real Christians.
My church practices the real Christianity.
I have seen miracles in my life, because of my relationship with Jesus.
Virtually any question can be answered by a bible verse, and if that verse doesn't answer your question, I will show you another one that will explain the first verse.
Please don't ask my why God would send us to burn in hell, even though he loves all of his children.
Please don't ask me why God created sin, the devil, and bad people.
God is mysterious and has his reasons for everything.
If you can answer my post without saying anything mean I welcome it. You people are so mean and hateful because you don't have Jesus in your heart.
I may not actually read anything you post, but at least I know that Jesus is real.
I will pray for all of you Atheists, even though I know that all of you are not atheists, and hope you find God like I did.
God said it, I believe it, and that settles it!
Anonymous
(Dan)
Hey (a different?) Dano:
You guys just don't get it. You said:
"I may not actually read anything you post, but at least I know that Jesus is real."
Take a chill-pill, read some of our posts and try to see things from our perspective - for a change! Jesus is real to you, the Buddha is real to people who live in Thailand, Allah is real to someone who lives in Iran, the "sun" god was real to the Aztecs - you do not have a monopoly on what is real. That is your problem (it's okay, your President has is, too), it is called "intellectual laziness". Read something besides your comic books and what the pastor (and your parents) tell you to read. There is a great big universe of possibility for you. The world is your oyster.
"If you can answer my post without saying anything mean I welcome it. You people are so mean and hateful because you don't have Jesus in your heart."
That statement, Dano, is what gets you bigots in trouble. That is exactly what stirs us "exchristians" up. You assume we never had Jesus in our heart - shuuut-uuuppp! How the F*&% do you know? Really?
"I will pray for all of you Atheists, even though I know that all of you are not atheists, and hope you find God like I did."
And in the meantime, I will hold hopeful thoughts in my head (similar in structure, purpose and effectiveness as your "prayers") that you will find your brain and use it for what nature intended it for: exploring your world. It is not that scary of a place, you can actually navigate through it on your own.
"God said it, I believe it, and that settles it!"
God didn't say a thing.
Man imagined it
Man wrote it down
Man passed it down through the ages (unchecked)
It got sold by men wanting power and control of the masses
It continues to subjugate men of different nations and cultures and turns women and gays into second class citzens
And, finally, you bought into it
You are its slave - and you don't even know it.
Why do I bother, you aren't coming back...
Another drive-by preaching...
If God is real without a questionable doubt, why does one need faith?
Faith in what? What is Faith? A word that the mindless bible writers invented to smooth over anyones doubt about the existance of a god. Faith is suppose to replace doubt, like smearing grout over a crack in cement, although the crack is still there underneath.
Someone said if one had as much faith as a mustard seed, then they could move a mountain, but I say that if one has as much faith as a mustard seed, then one could move a mustard seed, I've never seen this done.
Hey (a different?) Dano:
You guys just don't get it. You said:
"I may not actually read anything you post, but at least I know that Jesus is real."
Take a chill-pill, read some of our posts and try to see things from our perspective - for a change! Jesus is real to you, the Buddha is real to people who live in Thailand, Allah is real to someone who lives in Iran, the "sun" god was real to the Aztecs - you do not have a monopoly on what is real. That is your problem (it's okay, your President has is, too), it is called "intellectual laziness". Read something besides your comic books and what the pastor (and your parents) tell you to read. There is a great big universe of possibility for you. The world is your oyster.
"If you can answer my post without saying anything mean I welcome it. You people are so mean and hateful because you don't have Jesus in your heart."
That statement, Dano, is what gets you bigots in trouble. That is exactly what stirs us "exchristians" up. You assume we never had Jesus in our heart - shuuut-uuuppp! How the F*&% do you know? Really?
"I will pray for all of you Atheists, even though I know that all of you are not atheists, and hope you find God like I did."
And in the meantime, I will hold hopeful thoughts in my head (similar in structure, purpose and effectiveness as your "prayers") that you will find your brain and use it for what nature intended it for: exploring your world. It is not that scary of a place, you can actually navigate through it on your own.
"God said it, I believe it, and that settles it!"
God didn't say a thing.
Man imagined it
Man wrote it down
Man passed it down through the ages (unchecked)
It got sold by men wanting power and control of the masses
It continues to subjugate men of different nations and cultures and turns women and gays into second class citzens
And, finally, you bought into it
You are its slave - and you don't even know it.
Why do I bother, you aren't coming back...
Another drive-by preaching...
Dano,
Just for the record.
I did not seek you out and got into your face.
You sought us out and got into our face.
I do not want to hear any crap about being "mean".
If you are here because you, too, have doubts about your beliefs, take a look around and read some of the really good stuff written here. It is written by man - like the bible.
It's hard to go against the established system - kinda like when they tried to bullshit you into believing that being a christian was the narrow path. Newsflash: it isn't. It actually is the easiest path to be on - in this country. Listen to Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly and sign-up to be Republican - that is the easy path, too. Let Jerry Falwell try to convince you that Christmas is actually under attack. It is all crazy talk. You know it. It's okay to be different.
It is very free-ing!
Fellow exchristians,
"I did not seek you out and got into your face"
I'll be my own grammar police on that one....
The hostility you guys ahve to anyone who is a Christian is mind-boggling. Don't your realize that unlike and like some other faiths, Christianity has participants who don't speak for everyone else? Instead of looking to those who "say" they have belief, why don't you look to the one they put their faith and trust in as the leader of the religion. And that is Jesus Christ. The whole point of it all is that we all are flawed, so of course even the best Christians are not going to be exactly perfect. There are plenty who do or say things that are harmfil to others, and they should seek forgivenss when they do. How much sense does it make to blame the whole religion because how you may have been treated by a few of its people? talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
And to say someone should pray not for you but to keep children for being molested is misunderstanding the notion of prayer. Someone can pray for more than one thing ya know. A person praying for your soul is praying for your eternal life, not the mere blink of an eye that is this current life.
And when those who say it is wrong or whatever that God would send those to hell who don't agree with Christians again misunderstand. Among His qualities, God is Just. And when people break His law, he must have justice. The wages of sin are death. What he did was to create a way for us to be reconciled through our faith and trust as opposed to making actualy physical sacrifice. So it isn't that Christian want you to believe what they do so they can feel better about themself(or at least they shouldn't) it is them caring about your eternal destination.
"Mocking your faith? How "Christian" of us to mock, maybe we should mock you as you mock muslims with bombs and bullets?"
How does that even make sense? I don't own a gun, or bombs. The faith itself doesn't either. Once again, people who are bitter make irrational leaps to make themself feel better.
How is Christianity about hate? HOW? instead of explaining that, people just throw it out there. Christians may have been hateful, but the religion, the Bible, does not instruct them to do so.
"Please don't put yourself out to "feel sorry" for us...we have never been happier or freer! I now have friends and relationships with wonderful people who are "real", caring, loving, generous, honest...all the things I have never found in "christians." We need not your self-righteous sympathy."
Those "Christians" you never foudn those qualities in must have nto been real "christians" because loving,caring etc..should be very evident in every Christians life, at a minimum among other things.
Those who have "fallen" away. When you became a Christian, what were you expecting? God to make your life fully happy? That nothing bad would ever happen to you? Because God does not promise that. Some preacher or other person may have to get you to believe, but that leads to false coversion under false pretences. The disciples faced horrible deaths, as did many early Christians. Jesus said that those who are mocked and hurt ins His name were blessed. It isn't about God giving some force-field to protect you from all harm, but to be there to keep you strong when something bad may happen to you. I don't have to read every "Testimonial" to know the common reasons why people turn away.
When someone says they have pity for you and wish to see things change for the better for you, what was the reaction? Rude comments and such, and you say Christians are about hate?
Those of you whos ay you come here to warn others or whatever, and see that as a viable reason for doing so, then shouldn't Christians, who have a command to care for and love those they don't even know, to at least come here and say something?
Hey Anony-Mouse (who will not return):
The hostility you guys have to anyone who is a EXchristian is mind-boggling
Time to check yourself...
Another drive-by preaching.
Hello Dan,
You say you are a "TRUE CHRISTIAN". That's really interesting. We get quite a few "true Christians" here--that is, Christians who claim that they follow the TRUE religion, while the vast majority of those who wear the label "Christian" actually fall short for some reason or another. The really odd thing is that few "true Christians" recognize the other "true Christians" as being true Christians. Do you follow? So, I'm curious as to how we might verify that you're the real McCoy. Also, I'm curious as to whether other Christians would agree that you're the real McCoy.
You also state, quite categorically, the it is WE who are wrong, not you. I look forward to hearing you elaborate on that point. I'm sure you'll agree that anyone at all can say "I am right and you are wrong"; what matters is what comes next--i.e. the reasoning.
You say that "Virtually any question can be answered by a bible verse,..." and then that "God is mysterious and has his reasons for everything." So, in one breath you assure us that there are answers to (virtually) everything, yet in the next you seem to imply that there is no use trying to figure things out because god is a mystery. Which is it? Are there answers to everything or not? Is god comprehensible or not?
Finally you said "If you can answer my post without saying anything mean I welcome it. You people are so mean and hateful because you don't have Jesus in your heart."
Does it seem perfectly fine to you to call us "mean" and "hateful"? (You know, the phrase "you people..." is often a signal that a very sweeping and rude indictment is about to be leveled.) You wish for us to be nice in replying to you, yet you are sanguine about first insulting all of us in one broad stroke? If you do indeed return, I'd appreciate it if you would please consider your actions and either 1) apologize, or 2) provide a clear and rational explanation for why your actions should not be viewed as mean and rude. Thanks.
I'll be quite frank with you, Dan. You seem to be very confused. Now, maybe it all makes perfect sense to you, as you see yourself as an example of a "True" Christian. But from my perspective, you are not making much sense at all. Sorry if that offends you. But you are not alone. The vast majority of Christians who visit this site (including all the "True" ones) also contradict themselves and usually disappear before they've made a single cogent point. It's also quite common for them to level many insults at us; people who they do not seem to know anything about. That seems vary irresponsible and rude to me. Your thoughts?
Um, Bob, I believe Dano was being sarcastic. He posted every cliche the Christians come in here with. I suppose he should have put a warning that his post needs to be taken with one's tongue firmly in one's cheek. ;)
To the Christian OP: Try being psychologically hurt by an organization, then try to find help in a country where that organization is everywhere. That's where we are. This site is a place where we can feel good about who we are, despite you people telling us otherwise. We don't appreciate you butting into our support group and poisoning it with the crap that hurt us to begin with.
You may choose blind faith if you like, but it's blind faith that makes a herd of people drink poisoned Kool-Aid and bomb abortion clinics and go on suicide plane missions. If I was the praying type, I would pray that one day you'll join us here with your own decoversion testimony.
GoneNSane,
Damn, stung by my own trick - I pretended to convert earlier. Usually Dano does the age/cabin thing to let us know it is him. I imagined, for a minute, that we had a Daniel/Danny/Dan/Dano posting who did not know we already had a "Dano".
Fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice (Uh, Uh, duh)... won't get fooled again?!?
Once again, how many of you actually understand Christianity and its actual tenets? Christains don't have the luxury of simply not caring about non-christians.
Those who say they lsot their faith because they never "Saw" God or whatever, then you really don't understand the meaning of faith.
If God just walked around and proved his presence that way all the time, what would be the value of our love and affection? We would have no choice but to believe in Him. Faith gives value to love.
Anonymous: "Once again, how many of you actually understand Christianity and its actual tenets?"
That's a loaded question, Anonymous. Virtually every Christian I have ever discussed it with thinks that they possess the "correct" interpretation of Christianity, while the vast majority of so-called Christians seem to have missed it. So, I think what you are really asking is whether we have arrived at the SAME interpretation as YOU have. The answer to that is almost certainly "No".
On the other, quite a few of us are more-than-familiar with the common interpretations, although most of us here think that they are ALL flawed, and that there IS NO correct interpretation that removes the contradictions and absurdities from the Christian doctrine.
Anonymous: "Christains don't have the luxury of simply not caring about non-christians."
I understand what you mean by that. If you adhere to the tenets of Christianity, then it is your responsibility to "help" those who have not heard or do not believe the "word of god." This, I believe, is the real tragedy of Christianity. In effect, it elevates the "I am right and you are wrong" mentality to a mandate from "god". This, I believe, is a significant source of the insufferable arrogance exhibited by the majority of believers who post here. Rather than attempting to have a civil discussion, most visitors begin right off with insults, condescension, and truly rash generalizations. It's shameful behavior IMHO.
Anonymous: "Those who say they lsot their faith because they never 'Saw' God or whatever, then you really don't understand the meaning of faith. If God just walked around and proved his presence that way all the time, what would be the value of our love and affection?"
I suspect that you did not word that as you intended it (or, possibly, you haven't thought it through). You seem to be implying that "love" and "affection" are not worthwhile if the object of that love and affection is tangible and verifiable. By that logic, it would be impossible to show true love and affection toward our spouses and children, because we needn't exercise any "faith" in their existence.
Anonymous: "We would have no choice but to believe in Him. Faith gives value to love."
This makes absolutely no sense to me. First, what would be the harm if we had "no choice" (due to direct and incontrovertible evidence) that he/she/it existed? Would god be unable to distinguish between those who showed him genuine love and those who were simply sucking up to avoid torture? Might it not be intsrumental in helping many who are prepared to show love toward a deity, but see no evidence of her existence? And, once again, you seem to equate uncertainty with love. That is utterly incongruous to me. For one thing, if it were pure faith that was all-important, which deity should one put one's faith in? How should one go about choosing between the god of Abraham, and Buddha, and Allah, and Krishna? Should one pick a deity at random and hope for the best? What are your thoughts?
Anony-mouse said:
blah, blah, blah, blah...
the drive-by preachers grow tiresome...
Well at least someone responded by reading what was written and did so civily, I appreciate that.
The Great Commission, if you will, is not tragic I beleive. I think of it as a cure for a disease. if someone has the disease and I have what i think to be the cure for it, wouldn't I be cruel not to share it?
In terms of faith, Say God, was visible everyday in a comepletely obvious manner, that there was no question or doubt. What is the value of acknowledging him? It is ordinary. But rather, faith in Him allows for us choosing Him, not because we are forced to, but because we want to and see our need to do so.
I do not know how to word it much different, I am also watching the game right now and dealing with work, so if I have typo's or whatever, please excuse them.
I terms of which "god" one should pick all I can say is that if you read through the Bible, God sets out to prove that he is the only real show in town. Elijhah faces the Baal priests and challenges them to show their god, and they do not succeed, etc.. Also Romans says , "19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." God is saying Now I know using the Bible itself in a discussion with you doesn't mean you may buy it because you may think the Bible is a bunch of nonsense. But I thought I should give some example or something. When wanting to find someone who seems to "Get" Christianity as best as we can it is important for them to communicate that they do not have all the answers necessarily, but they merely think they are on the right road. God has the answers, and there are things we may never understand, Jello for goodness sakes(a joke..for tension-ease)..
At least I suggest reading Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis.
To all anony-mouse posters,
Shuuuttt-uuppp! You are just like the annoying little sophomore pip-squeek in high school who won't shut-up is just asking to get his ass kicked. I'll invite a Catholic Priest over here to perform an exorcism if you do not leave.
You have your websites, go visit them. Don't you have someone's doorstep to stand on and keep ringing their doorbell until someone answers the door? Stttoppp with the scriptures - it is crap, we don't believe it. We are not going to reconvert. You are wasting your time and I am tired of responding to you jerks...
How typical it is for you to rub salt in the wound that you assholes created...
Hey Christians,
"Exchristians" is not a service provided for you to debate non-believers. It is here to support "exchristians". Maybe I should go to a church and debate christians on their beliefs? Catch you as you are trying to take your family to lunch, or hurry home for the game...
I found my way to God. She was in a temple of peace.
Anonymous: "The Great Commission, if you will, is not tragic I beleive. I think of it as a cure for a disease. if someone has the disease and I have what i think to be the cure for it, wouldn't I be cruel not to share it?"
You bet. *IF* you have a cure for an *ACTUAL* disease then, yes, you ought to share it. *IF*, on the other hand, you offer a so-called cure for something that is not a disease, but a healthy state, then you do more harm than good. So, the question comes down to this: is what you offer a cure for an actual malady or not? Obviously, you answer "yes". Most of us answer with a resounding "No," because we think your theology is based upon faulty premises and faulty reasoning. Therefore (according to us), it is not some kind of malady to cast it off, but the result of healthy critical thinking.
Anonymous: "In terms of faith, Say God, was visible everyday in a comepletely obvious manner, that there was no question or doubt. What is the value of acknowledging him?"
Please stop to consider what you are asserting. You are saying that if god clearly DID exist, then there would be no value in acknowledging that fact. Then you must feel that the only value comes from believing in something that does NOT clearly exist; i.e. that the value derived from your god is not in following him, or understanding him, or acknowledging what is obviously true, but in asserting that FOR WHICH YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE! To me, that is the exact opposite of what a responsible adult ought to do.
Anonymous: "But rather, faith in Him allows for us choosing Him, not because we are forced to, but because we want to and see our need to do so."
No, you have that backwards. If you have faith "in him", then you have ALREADY "chosen" him; i.e. you have already decided that he is a real deity. What you fail to address is how one ought to move from a position of not knowing to a position of having faith in an unseen unknown entity, when there are so many to choose from. I understand why you do not wish to answer that, or to even seriously contemplate it, but I'm not going to accept a non-answer.
Anonymous: "I[n] terms of which 'god' one should pick all I can say is that if you read through the Bible, God sets out to prove that he is the only real show in town."
It should be quite obvious that nearly everyone here has read and studied the Bible. I've read it and studied it for many years. Nothing could be more clear to me than the fact that it is a product of humans, just as every other "divinely inspired" text is. The evidence, in my opinion, is simply overwhelming. For example, the books of the new testament show an unmistakable progression of embellishment when placed in chronological order; the Jesus myth gets purified, expanded, and further harmonized with OT scripture, and midrashic inventions run rampant. Unless you wish to suggest that people many decades removed from the purported events suddenly "knew" more than those alive at the time, there is something that needs to be faced squarely and explained by believing Christians (if they wish for critical-thinking adults to be swayed by their arguments).
Anonymous: "Elijhah faces the Baal priests and challenges them to show their god, and they do not succeed, etc.."
Really? And how do you know this? From the believers in Baal? No! You know it only through the words of anonymous Jewish evangelists (as I presume you are referring to the account in Numbers). Such stories are a dime a dozen. Why should I believe that they are anything more than tall stories of the form "My god is bigger than yours"?
Anonymous: "...For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."
That's complete nonsense. Every religion claims that it's god(s)/goddess(es) are responsible for various occurrences and/or inspired scriptures. Each religion can claim that people are "without excuse", but that seems to be nothing more than intimidation, just as the threat of Hell. Allah too demands that we are to worship only him, and not commit such blasphemies as worshiping a human incarnation of god. Arguments gain nothing when they are backed by threats; in fact, they ring all the more hollow.
Anonymous: "...God has the answers,..."
Which god, and why should I believe that he/she/it exists?
Anonymous: "At least I suggest reading Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis."
I've read a geat deal of C. S. Lewis. He was a brilliant writer. In my opinion, however, his theology was extremely weak. He popularized quite a few howling fallacies, such as the "Lord, Liar, Lunatic" false-trilemma, and proposed some startlingly weak solutions, such as his assertion that Christianity was the one "true myth", to explain its many similarities with more ancient religions.
I'm curious to know whether you've ready many books that examine Christianity critically. I'll be happy to provide a long list of such books for you if you are interested.
Misinterpret the notion of prayer? So, there are guidelines one must follow?
Why waste your prayer time praying for those who have made their choice with the ‘free will’ that your ever-so-loving god supposedly gave us? I really want for nothing: I have food, clothing, the love of friends and family, and I have a fair bit of cash. I donate time and money in trying to ensure that I leave no scars on the Earth during my time on it.
I find the concept of a god, heaven, and hell intellectually bankrupt and the process of praying no more effective than consulting a magic eight ball.
And when I die my body functions will stop, my conscious will cease to exist, and I won’t give a rat’s ass about it. Eventually, in time, no one will remember me but that’s OK because better people than I have lived and have been forgotten.
You need to use your prayer time to tell your ‘god’ while he’s ‘watching’ the ‘sinners’ run amok with their ‘free will’ and leaving a trails of victims that you think that he should step in a protect those who can’t protect themselves. It seems that your god is usually more upset because humans have turned away from him than the pain and anguish that we cause others.
Weakness should be use in the context of eating a piece of chocolate cake while on a diet or buying a new game boy when you should have gone to the eye doctor. You don’t get to be like my 22-month old niece who will take her sippy-cup to the sofa, turn it upside down, and shake it. All the while going: “Oops, oops, oops.” Embezzlement, conning people out of hard earn money, adultery, rape, and pedophilia are not oopses. They are not weaknesses. They are premeditated and deliberate acts and they should not forgivable.
These are my opinions. I could be wrong but I don’t think so.
Shannon and Jim Arvo:
The walking, dead Elvis's have all left the building, but I heard both of you. Excellent, well done. You guy's are shooting with both barrels. Ooops, ooops exlains a lot, doesn't it? The zombies just can't get over themselves... "the hostility you guys have to anyone who is a christian is mind-boggling". It is easy to boggle an unchallenged mind. Hey look, there goes Elvis and Jesus is driving...
The anonymous and Cap'n Ahab crowd haven't returned after their Sunday night hate minute, so I thought I would stir the pot by posting this one from "In Defense of Dave - to the Passing Christian". Especially after all of the visits we had today by so-called "christians". It is a response to an older post, it probably got missed by most. I hope I haven't broken any rules...
In Defense of Dave: To the passing Christian
.: posted Thursday, July 17, 2003 ::: by .:webmaster:. :::
posted: 1/19/2006 5:16 PM EST
"Txiasaeia wrote:
I'll begin this by saying that I'm a Christian. I find it unfortunate that people who call themselves Christians come onto this site and verbally harangue those who are not believers. For instance:
"What is certain is that intolerance abounds these days. And even with all the information readily available on the web, so does ignorance. What is also clear is that, based upon the witness of the Christians who visit here, one could only conclude that they are, on the whole, insensitive, merciless, arrogant, smug, supercilious, fearful, neurotic, mono-maniacal, often unintelligible, seldom honest, lacking in empathy, and filled with their own self-righteousness."
The Bible teaches us that *all* are sinners, including those of us who attack you guys, and that we shouldn't criticise people for their faults when we've got plenty of our own. Open discussions about religion where both sides respect each other's views are the proper place for Christians to engage non-believers, not one sided attacks that do little but make the church look bad.
There's so much that I could say, but no real place to start. I'll finish by saying that most people who come here and criticise you guys because of your lack of faith have problems, self-esteem probably being the most obvious. The most important commandment according to Jesus is to love God & love your neighbors. Verbally attacking a non-Christian because of their anti-Christian attitudes is *not* showing love. I feel really bad about this. I truly believe that Christianity is really not as bad as people have made it out to be. I actually left the faith when I was a teenager and came back to it as an adult, so I think that I have a bit of perspective on the issue.
If anybody wants to contact me about this, feel free to email me at papafriesen@gmail.com. That's it!"
What is interesting to me is that this guy actually comes the closest to being a true follower of Jesus Christ.
Hi Bob, yup we're just oozing hostility, aren't we? Round up them believers and smack 'em cross the knuckles. Naaah, on second thought, let's just keep asking questions and calling them as we see them. That usually seems to do the trick.
I don't know if Anonymous will reply to my query about books that he/she has read that are critical of Christianity, but if he/she does, it will be the *first* time. I've asked that question better than 50 times on this site, and I've yet to get a reply from a single believer (that I recall). To me that says it all. Anybody who claims to know the "truth" without lifting a finger to examine things from all sides is not worth listening to. Period. Given the sheer volume of misinformation competing for our attention from day one, the likelihood that the first thing one latches onto will just happen to be the "truth" is effectively zero.
I also find it quite astonishing how willing believers often are to stand on their heads, contorting word meanings and bending logic, in order to explain why god does not reveal himself. Believers of all stripes face the very same challenge, and they all attempt to explain it away. For instance, they assert that "faith" is somehow a *necessary* and *admirable* thing, as opposed to being a stop-gap measure that is invoked when there is nothing else. Well, to me, there is nothing honorable in being irrational.
>>>Anonymous said: "Those who say they lost their faith because they never 'Saw' God or whatever, then you really don't understand the meaning of faith. If God just walked around and proved his presence that way all the time, what would be the value of our love and affection?" <<<
That is called BLIND FAITH. I have no need for that. If God cannot make a peresonal apperance for me. Then I have no respect for that sad excuse of a deity.
Blessings,
Lemming
There is no attribution as to who posted this comment...
Some of us have a hobby of trying to rid the world of people who are destroying it. Humans have brains, and we should use them to reason, not fantasize about a phony afterlife.
1/21/2006 9:47 PM
I was wondering what reason we should be employing our brains. I'm curious what the poster meant as to what we are here on earth for. There are many posts here about freedom and people who feel like they are no longer in bondage. If you are no longer in bondage... what do you purpose yourselves to now? If it is no longer Christanity, what do you focus on and direct your efforts and energy. What do you now feel gives your life meaning. I'm curious and want to hear more about your stories and what you have been through.
A few simple questions anonymous:
As a pro-lifer (as I'm sure you are), how do you explain God specifically commanding Joshua and Saul to murder children, babies, and pregnant women? Isn't this contrary to God's pro-life stance?Num 31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
Num 31:14-18 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle. And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves
This is one sample scripture of dozens of other baby-killing scriptures.
As a Christian I'm sure you're applaud young women who save themselves for marriage. But virginity in the old testament was more than a lack of sexual experience. "True" virginity was actually a peice of intact skin.
Deuteronomy 22:13-21: "If any man takes a wife, and goes in to her, and then spurns her, and charges her with shameful conduct, and brings an evil name upon her, saying, 'I took this woman, and when I came near her, I did not find in her the tokens of virginity,' then the father of the young woman and her mother shall take and bring out the tokens of her virginity to the elders
of the city in the gate; and the father of the young woman shall say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter to this man to wife, and he spurns her; and lo, he has made shameful charges against her, saying, 'I did not find in your daughter the tokens of virginity,' And yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity,' And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city. Then the elders of that city shall take the man and whip him; and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver, and give them to the father
of the young woman, became he has brought an evil name upon a virgin of Israel; and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days. But if the thing is true, that the tokens of virginity were not found in the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has wrought folly in Israel by playing the harlot in her father's house; so you shall purge the evil from the midst of you."
But God is just being just isn't he. Well, that would be true except modern science has proven that at least 40% of women DO NOT BLEED their first time. Why? Some infant girls are born without a hymen. The hymen can easily be torn by rigorous physical activity (jumping over a fence, ect.) And sometimes it just not dense enough to cause any actual bleeding. How do you explain this? Wouldn't God applaud the young lady who mabey rode a donkey when she was 7?
God hates liars. He even calls Satan the "Father of all Lies". But God actually seems to have some interesting friends hanging with him up in heaven.
19 Micaiah continued, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?' One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.' 22 'By what means?' the LORD asked. 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said. 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.' 23 So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."
What? Is God forming some kind of temporary truce with the devil? God hates liars.
While there are many who leave the faith for purely sentimental reasons. Being mistreated, molested, ect., ect,. The only true deconversion is one that takes place on purely theological grounds. I'm interested in hearing your response.
"I was wondering what reason we should be employing our brains."
Freeing ourselves from falsehood. Finding truth through evidence and facts.
Discovering the way things actually are.
Understanding what animals can't, maybe even for the higher evolution of the species?
A quote from Robert Heinlein: "Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well.
The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion - in the long run, these are the only people who count."
'Count', as in they are the only ones who are remembered in history, because they've done something...
Faith-bots are not remembered.
"...If you are no longer in bondage... what do you purpose yourselves to now?"
The 'purpose' is whatever you make it. There really is none besides our own desires.
That's true Freedom.
The buddhists say that life is suffering. That suffering comes from desire, but even the desire to end your desire is still a desire...
Suffering teaches lessons.
We learn from mistakes, and improve...
What do you really desire?
Remembering to be aware of the consequences of your actions.
If you are willing to accept those, then go for it.
Whatever you want.
If your first thought is, "Then what's to stop me killing/raping/etc...", then you've obviously got serious problems of your own that you should deal with in your own way.
Most people are fairly sensible and avoid actions that bring about harsh consequences.
These would include mental burdens, ie. guilt factors for harming others.
The knowledge that you've caused suffering tends to turn most people off a course of action.
If you can't imagine what purpose life could have beside serving a god - then try imagining what purpose that god has.
He has no higher power to worship. Whatever could his purpose be?
How does he get along?
What's to stop him killing and torturing for pleasure, etc, etc.
The bible-god doesn't address his origins or his purpose. He simply say's, "I Am".
Origins and purpose are largely irrelevant.
All of us can say, "I Am." but what do we do with that?
90% of life is maintenance of our body and lifestyle.
That's a fairly large portion of life to occupy our time.
The rest is free for whatever you want.
Some may feel that simply maintaining the body until death is meaningless, even miserable - and so there must more of a purpose to this existence.
Why do we have this feeling?
I see it as an evolutionary desire to free ourself from the old animal nature.
What we've evolved out of.
Maybe man is evolving into a higher being, and that's where we get our concepts of 'sin', or 'right' and 'wrong'?
That whatever is of the 'beast'/animal instinct is considered shameful because we have developed a higher intellect now...?
We expect ourselves to be able to control our own animal re-actions, ie. self-control, because we know that we are capable of doing so, thanks to the level of evolution achieved as a species.
'Sin', not necessarily as a moral 'right' or 'wrong' but a knowledge of correct and incorrect ways to improve our evolutionary path - our 'enlightenment' as a species.
Maybe we're getting to levels of evolution never seen before - at least on earth...
I look at the story of Baal and the "true prophets" with a slighly different prospective. I believe the story goes that even after pouring water on the altar "God" sent down fire from heaven and devoured the altar and also the false prophets of Baal.
Let's have that same demostration today in a large parking lot in front of a large church and see if "God" will answer the prayers as he did then. I'll be happy to be one of the Baal people. I'm willing to bet you won't be able to find one preacher to take this challenge. Why not? "God" does not change, does he? He will surely send fire from heaven like in the days of old, won't he? I'm willing to bet my ass he won't. Are there any preachers out there willing to bet "God" will show? If you're reading this and are a "true believer", then go to your pastor and challenge him. If "God" answers your prayers, then what have you got to lose. I'm putting my ass on the line here. Let's get it on. I'm waiting.........
Anonymous, sharing a cure for a disease is certainly admirable. However, the church is the one who creates the disease (and it's a mental one at that) and then offers the cure. No church = no disease and no need for a cure. So we don't need your remedy, we don't buy into this "human beings are scum and can't handle anything on their own" message that the church pushes.
It's also admirable that you feel driven to love everyone, despite their beliefs. Guess what, so do I. To put it in terms you're more familiar with, I love the Christian, hate the Christianity. ;)
I'm with Jim--when a Christian has taken a good hard look at all the sides of the religion and still chooses it, then I'll listen to his arguments. How can you claim one thing is the best way when you've never tried anything else? Sounds more like convenience to me.
What do I live for if not for God? I live to experience what it is to be human, I live to try and be the person I want to be, I live to help where I can and love always. Sounds a bit like your religion, doesn't it? The difference is, there's no Christian God in my life, so I am free to enjoy it without guilt that I'm not perfect. In other words, I can be happy with no strings attached.
Anon stated:
The Great Commission, if you will, is not tragic I beleive. I think of it as a cure for a disease. if someone has the disease and I have what i think to be the cure for it, wouldn't I be cruel not to share it?
Not if you are the one who gave the individual the disease in the first place. Your "god" put sin upon Adam & Eve by placing a talking serpant in their home that would cause the young, innocent couple to sin. I call them innocent due to the fact that they would not have had the ability to realize the result of their actions. Remember, death did not enter the world until they partoke of the fruit. How then could they have understood the punishment of death. I liken this to me leaving a loaded 45 magnum with the safety off on the coffee table. I tell my young child not to touch the gun for in they day that they do they will surely die. I leave the room with my child, the gun and a man I know will goad her into picking it up and pulling the trigger. I listen to all the events occur and my child shots herself in the head. I try to render first aid to her at this point, but it is useless. She is dead. All the while think if only she obeyed me, I would not need to render her care. She choose to disobey and know she must die. It was her choice afterall.
Anon, that is the equal to your Paulist disease that you must save us from. Your god created the disease, so He could so lovingly porvide the cure. That is not love, it is insanity.
Hey TexMex2003,
Thank you, thank you, thank you. That .44 magnum/daughter analogy is perfectly stated. How can anyone defend the bible when the opening story is shot down in flames!!!
Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome (MBPS)
Hi,
I don't really feel like contributing to an argument that keeps being rehashed every few weeks or so (Christians are sooo predictable), but I do have a side comment about Dano's post...
I think Dano was trying to be toungue-in-cheek, and the post wasn't meant as a counter-argument.
"Some of us have a hobby of trying to rid the world of people who are destroying it."
So let me get this right, you'll be taking on an active role in the fight against those who destroyed the WTC, and the trains in Madrid, and the tube in London, and the cars set ablaze in France, to say nothing of the very real and tangible loss of life, limb and heads by hooded Islamist thugs? You're going to hunt them down, or at least speak up against the real destroyers within the world today. No? Yeah...I didn't think so. It's easier to sit back and punch out drivel at an exchristian website. Too bad Mother Theresa isn't still alive. What a worthy 'adversary' she could be.
Was religious belief at the heart of those ations?
Yes.
I stumbled across this site accidentally, and lo and behold! My eyes were not gouged out. Remarkable!
Seriously, I hafta hand it to you guys. I'm proud of you for finally Waking Up. It's positively refreshing to see that there are so many who used to be sheep but can now think for themselves. It gives me hope for the future of our world.
I guess you could say I'm an ex-xtian. I was raised Catholic (but I never really bought into the Lie), and I knew when I was but 14 that it was a load, so I told my parents I wasn't going back. That was 26 years ago. It's been a fantastic 26 years, let me tell you.
I want to address something to the Xtians who come here and are SHOCKED, APPALLED, and HURT because so many seem to "paint all Xtians with the same mocking brush."
I can hear them whining now: "We're not ALLLLL like that!..." Know what? I know it. Not all Xtians are hypocritical bigots.
In fact, I'd like to say this to you if you are put off by the across-the-board Xtian-bashing.
Instead of being offended by the nonbelievers here, you should be ashamed, and humiliated--by all the pseudo-Xtians out there! If I was a real Xtian (a serious minority these days), I'd be incensed at those who have debauched my Savior's name. I'd completely understand the wrath of the non-Xtian, and the ex-Xtian. Not only would I not feel anger toward them, I'd not feel pity either. My pity and anger I'd save for the posers.
"True" Xtianity--that is, the teachings of the forgotten man Jesus--has been decimated by the virulent Religious Right. It's shameful, and if I were a Xtian, I'd be lashing out at those who have destoyed it by claiming it as their own in such a perverted way.
I'd be praying my @ss off, not for the non-believers, but for the FAUX Xtian posers who have silenced those who truly follow Christ.
If you are really a Xtian and you cannot fathom how the good folks on this blog can be so upset, you are living in serious denial. Get out there and TAKE YOUR CHRISTIANITY BACK!
Like the bumpersticker says: if you are not outraged, you are not paying attention. It's not the nonbelievers who are ruining Xtianity, folks.
Unsigned:
Consider that the USA, where I live, is 80% christian, a figure which includes both catholics and christians. There are countless websites, churches, television stations, radio stations, newspapers, magazines, and gatherings for christians. I live in the bible belt. I'm surrounded by christianity. There are churches galore in Dallas, where I live, and very few places of worship of other faiths. I cannot help disbelieving. To me, christian theology is nonsensical and the doctrines are not believable. Interpretation of scripture is vague and every denomination ignores a large percentage of the bible. Everythings Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, which is fine with me for others to believe. I have examined christianity and I could not believe in it. I am nearly alone in my disbelief. I have nobody to talk to about it. I don't live the way christians do. I don't adhere to any religious doctrines. Here, I can meet with others who also share my disbelief. You may not be able to understand this, being a christian, but I enjoy coming here and meeting with other non-christians. You all have each other for company, leave us to ours!
You said:
"Jesus told examples of those who would hear His message but not firmly grab hold in his parable of the sower."
What's his message to you? "Accept me and you're 'saved?'" Is that the message of Christ to which you refer? Is that what the parable of the sower is to you? It sounds more to me as though it would make reference to reincarnation, frankly. What could it mean to a christian who believes in the doctrine of salvation by grace alone? Notice how the "wicked one" comes and "catcheth away that which was sown in his heart." in said parable (Matt. 13:19.) How could this happen to one who is "saved?" Does this mean that some christians are not "saved?" How could that be, if they've all "accepted Jesus?" What does this parable mean to you as a christian? I'm curious.
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